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and welcome to Momma Mia Out Loud. It's

0:59

what women are actually talking about on Wednesday the

1:01

13th of March. I'm

1:03

Holly Wainwright. I'm Mia Friedman. And I'm

1:05

Jessie Stevens. And before we get into

1:07

today's show, we have a huge mammoth.

1:09

Very big announcement. Subscribers

1:11

have already heard the news. They're always

1:13

early to the party. But now we

1:15

want to share it with everyone. We're

1:17

bringing Australia's number one news and pop

1:19

culture podcast. Spoiler. Us. That's

1:22

us. To the stage for three

1:24

very special shows. We are, we're going live.

1:26

Momma Mia Out Loud live is happening. It

1:28

is happening. They are our first shows for

1:31

the year and they're going to be big.

1:33

I can't even tell you. We are already

1:35

in talks and fittings

1:38

about like... Oh my goodness. ...costumes.

1:40

There may be some dance lessons.

1:42

Like it's the whole thing. Can

1:44

I use the word extravaganza? Anyway,

1:46

Momma Mia Out Loud live is

1:48

presented by Nivea Cellular and it's

1:50

heading to Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney

1:53

this May, which is soon. As

1:55

I mentioned out loud, as I think we all know each

1:57

other well enough that I can have a little joke around.

2:00

you although I'm not really joking. Subscribers

2:02

will get early access to

2:04

tickets so if you want to

2:06

make sure you don't miss out because these shows do always

2:08

sell out. But come on mumma mia subscriber

2:10

get the splinters out of your bum bum if you're

2:12

sitting on the fence get a

2:14

subscription come along make it your little

2:17

treat because guys we have leveled

2:19

up the show and there's gonna be an interval

2:21

that's how big the show is. It is

2:24

big. Especially for me and I don't usually like

2:26

intervals but I'm making an exception for this live

2:28

show. What are we gonna do with you in

2:30

the interval? We're gonna have to keep

2:32

you entertained and engaged. She's gonna

2:35

need to weave. We can't wait to see you.

2:37

Head to the link in the show notes for

2:39

all the details. On

2:41

the show today did you

2:44

think we were gonna leave it

2:46

alone? Please. Where's I need an

2:48

update on Kate? Princess

2:50

Kate the world is now pretending

2:52

to understand photographic metadata and we're

2:54

not above it. We're not doing

2:56

that too so join us as

2:58

we unpick the latest. Also there

3:00

are dating CVs now and Hugh Jackman

3:02

really needs one and a

3:04

very famous former pop star is on

3:06

the record as saying her children ruined

3:08

her career and I hope they weren't

3:10

listening when she did but first, Jesse

3:12

Stevens. In case you missed it we

3:14

know why you're tired and it's not

3:17

your fault and it's not your

3:19

iron deficiency although it might be that too. You

3:21

know how you'll always hear you need about seven to

3:23

eight hours sleep in there. Yeah. Or the brosé and

3:26

all the health and wellness. I always thought it was

3:28

eight. Eight? Well sometimes they say

3:30

like a seven to eight right? Like they say

3:32

that period. And it feels like lately they've been

3:34

raising mistakes on what it's like you will die

3:36

sooner if you don't. Yes. You will get sick

3:38

if you don't. You will get a mental illness

3:41

if you don't. Exactly. Exactly right. Well historically

3:43

and I can't believe I didn't think of this sleep

3:45

studies. Who do you reckon they've been studying

3:47

in their sleep studies? Oh it's not

3:50

us. It's not us. Do women need less than

3:52

men? What do you think? I

3:54

would think that we need less than men

3:56

because we are at a No,

4:00

that's not fair. No, that's not fair. Because we

4:02

have more shit to do. No, well, we do.

4:04

That's not fair. That's why we've got to sleep

4:06

harder. Historically, sleep studies all on

4:08

male bodies and new research suggests that

4:10

actually women might need more than that.

4:12

How much more varies, but I like

4:15

a man named Dr. Patrick Flynn and

4:17

I'm selective about my studies. Great. He

4:20

says he reckons women need one to two

4:22

extra hours of sleep than men. Sometimes,

4:24

this is my favorite part, even more. Lack

4:27

of sleep causes more stress on a woman's body than

4:29

a man's. According to him, women

4:31

have a longer circadian rhythm and require, I

4:33

quote, eight to ten hours of sleep, whereas

4:35

men are more like seven to eight. Oh,

4:38

wow. Other studies say something about women

4:40

needing an additional 11 minutes, but I discount

4:42

those. I

4:44

think ten hours is it. I think so

4:46

too. This may be a conversation for another

4:49

time, but you, infamous night

4:51

owl. Yes. Jesse Stevens,

4:53

infamous night owl. We've had many

4:55

discussions about whether this is DNA

4:57

or circumstance. Tell me, since your

4:59

life has changed significantly, are we still a night owl?

5:02

It's 9 p.m. bedtime. I have definitely been moving

5:04

it forward, but I still struggle with that. I

5:07

believe that there are women

5:09

walking around going, I'm getting my seven to

5:12

eight hours and I still feel tired. May

5:14

I suggest trying ten? Exactly. The

5:16

men in your life just say, pick up the site.

5:21

You only need seven. Some guy named Patrick said so.

5:28

A lot has happened since Monday

5:31

episode of Out Loud regarding Kate

5:34

Middleton that was only 48 hours ago. So

5:37

much has happened. In fact, that we are considering

5:39

turning this podcast into a live stream of rolling

5:41

coverage so that we can update you in real

5:43

time. And the sound you just heard is Jesse

5:45

throwing up quietly into her mouth. On

5:49

Monday we discussed the photoshopped image of

5:51

the Princess of Wales with her children

5:53

that was apparently taken by Prince William

5:55

and posted on their official Royal Social

5:57

Media channels shortly after we're done.

6:00

Approximately 16 inconsistencies, which I

6:02

think is more than we knew about

6:04

on Monday. In the

6:07

photo, all sparked questions about it,

6:09

including where is her wedding ring

6:11

and where is half of Princess Charlotte's arm and

6:13

was that just Kate's face from that Vogue cover

6:15

she did in 2016 superimposed

6:17

onto the body of someone else wearing skinny jeans

6:20

and huggings and children? Can I just say with

6:22

that? I mean, that's just her face. So

6:24

it's like, look, Kate looks like this photo of

6:26

her. It's like, yeah, that's because it's a photo

6:29

of her. I didn't buy that one. I didn't

6:31

buy that one. Well, briefly,

6:33

here's what's happened since then. Strap in.

6:36

On Monday night, someone with the initial C fessed

6:38

up to being responsible for the photo shopping

6:40

with a fairly curt apology. I think we're

6:42

supposed to know who that was. Well, yes,

6:44

I'll get to that. This

6:46

apology went on the Wales of Stories but did not

6:48

make the grid, notably. It

6:51

said, like many amateur photographers, I do

6:53

occasionally experiment with editing. I wanted to

6:55

express my apologies for any confusion the

6:57

family photograph we shared caused. I

7:00

hope everyone celebrating had a very happy Mother's

7:02

Day. See? V Well,

7:14

the apology that broke late

7:16

on Monday night Australian time

7:18

caused a global pause in the feverish

7:21

speculation over Kate's whereabouts that has been

7:23

referred to as QAnon for Wine Mums,

7:26

which is a description I resent while at the

7:28

same time agreeing with entirely. The

7:31

pause lasted maybe three minutes when

7:34

people went, oh, OK, yes, the pause of people

7:36

screenshotting it and putting it in the mummy. I'll

7:38

add it. That's not what I

7:40

was talking about actually, because I was approving

7:42

comments in the backend and

7:45

there were five screenshots of the apology.

7:48

New questions almost immediately were asked, including but

7:50

not limited to the fact that how come

7:52

it's Kate with a K but Catherine with

7:54

a C and is it any wonder we're

7:56

all so bloody confused? She

7:59

has never. ever referred to herself

8:01

as Kate and nor to any of the

8:03

other royal family. Is it like when

8:05

Katie Holmes hooked up with

8:08

Tom Cruise and he called

8:10

her? What did he call her? Catherine? Kate.

8:12

She tried to read. He tried to read.

8:14

We wanted to call her Katie. Yes. He

8:16

never referred to her as Katie. Yeah, I

8:18

thought it was very familiar of her to

8:20

do the first initial and then I went

8:22

home. We all know who it is. Never

8:24

mind. It's actually not her. So it's just

8:26

some random at the palace. Well, a few

8:28

hours later on Tuesday morning, a paparazzi image

8:30

emerged of William and Kate in a car on

8:32

the way to drop off William at Commonwealth Day

8:35

celebrations, but not Kate. She was

8:37

apparently being dropped off at an appointment. Although we

8:39

can't be sure it's Kate because it's really just

8:41

the back of her head in one year as

8:43

she's looking out of the window. This

8:46

cleared nothing up. This morning,

8:48

Wednesday, metadata of the photograph has

8:50

been unveiled. Now, metadata basically is

8:52

embedded in all the photos we

8:54

take. Who knew? And it

8:56

can essentially reveal information about an image such as where

8:59

and when it was taken on what kind

9:01

of camera and how many times the file

9:03

has been edited. So the image

9:06

appears to have been taken or

9:08

altered on the 8th of

9:10

March. It was saved twice in Adobe

9:12

Photoshop on an Apple Mac computer. The

9:14

photo was shot at Adelaide Cottage where

9:16

the Wales family resides in Windsor, west

9:19

of London. There is

9:21

no evidence to suggest that the

9:23

princess has been inserted into the

9:25

photo although it was

9:27

edited hastily on Friday and

9:29

Saturday before it's released, according to the

9:32

metadata. Make of that

9:34

what you will. And now sources reportedly close

9:36

to Harry and Meghan have weighed

9:38

in on the photo shopping and they've

9:40

said, this isn't a mistake

9:42

Meghan would ever make. If Harry and Meghan had

9:44

ever encountered the same issue, they would have been

9:47

annihilated. The same rules do not apply to both

9:49

couples. Oh my God, so annoying.

9:51

Meghan has a keen eye and a freakish attention

9:53

to these things. Holly

9:56

and Jesse, this is a massive story and it

9:58

has a long way to. play out. So

10:01

we're going to have to really pace

10:03

ourselves. What season of this story are

10:06

you in, Holly Wainwright? I

10:08

am in my angry feminist season of

10:10

this story now, right? Because I

10:13

feel like that apology by

10:16

C was

10:18

the most disingenuous bullshit

10:21

scapegoating I've ever seen. Do you think

10:23

it sounded angry? Like passive aggressive? I

10:25

don't think it sounded that. I think

10:27

it sounded like, let's try and pass

10:29

this off as Kate

10:31

and Willy, little Kate with her

10:33

silly little toy, are just like

10:36

ordinary families who when

10:38

they take pictures of their kids, it's really hard

10:40

to get all the kiddies smiling at once. Every

10:42

mum can relate to that. So, you know, I

10:44

do a bit of hasty editing, whatever, as

10:47

if they are not

10:49

actually a corporation with at

10:52

least 15 people in their

10:54

communications team, led by a man that

10:56

used to be the vice president of

10:58

comms at NBC in America,

11:01

who probably gets paid hundreds

11:03

of thousands of pounds, as

11:05

if it was just Kate, like, oops. So

11:08

are you saying Kate's thrown her under

11:10

the bus? That is why I'm saying. What

11:12

if she was part of the

11:14

decision about we've got to address this, how are we

11:16

going to address it? She would have

11:18

been part of the decision. The only person

11:21

that you can't really ask questions about is

11:23

the explanation. I actually thought it was quite

11:25

genius, because even though other questions

11:27

are now being asked, if it was someone in the

11:29

palace did it, then it would have been all but

11:31

why, but why, but why. On

11:33

Monday, we were saying, what's the most

11:35

well-intentioned interpretation? This would have been it,

11:38

right? 100% it is. But what

11:40

it also does is it completely puts the

11:42

blame and the pressure and the speculation

11:44

on Kate and Kate alone, right?

11:46

She took the fall. She

11:49

took the whole fall for this, when

11:51

really one of those 15

11:53

staffers and Mr. Wunderkind gets paid a lot

11:55

of money to sort this stuff out, should

11:58

never have let that photo go out. out,

12:00

should never have let it happen because

12:03

last week we were in the middle

12:05

of Kate Middleton conspiracies. This was their

12:07

cack-handed attempt to quieten that down. It's

12:09

made everything worse. Kate is

12:11

now at the center of the kind of

12:14

storm that took down

12:16

Princess Diana, that allegedly took down Meghan

12:18

Markle, that certainly took down the Duchess

12:20

of York. Like she is now under

12:23

the kind of intense scrutiny

12:25

and pressure. It's made everything worse. That statement,

12:27

if that's not really a statement because it

12:29

comes by the sources from Harry and Meghan's

12:32

team, is extraordinary because

12:34

… Do you think

12:36

it's real? Well, I hope it isn't

12:38

because it's so ungenerous. Kate literally is

12:40

being annihilated right now. Yeah. So exactly

12:43

what has happened to Meghan is happening

12:45

to Kate right now. Now, whatever you

12:47

think about them, the Royal Family, the

12:50

difference in the way that Kate and Meghan have been covered

12:52

over time, right now Kate Middleton is

12:54

in the eye of a hurricane and if we

12:56

are to believe at least some of what we've

12:59

been told, in the eye of a

13:01

hurricane while recovering from a serious operation, while

13:03

in a vulnerable place, while deeply unwell and

13:05

now she's got all this attention on her,

13:08

I think it's a dereliction of care on

13:10

the behalf of their press. Josie, what season

13:12

of the story are you in? Season

13:14

of deep shame. I'm not in a place I'm

13:17

proud of. I'm in a place

13:19

that I'm trying to work through psychologically. Are you in

13:21

QAnon for wine, Mums? I

13:23

am deep in that place. I'm often late

13:25

to a royal story. I'm probably where you

13:27

were a week ago, I would say. But

13:30

I'm also attempting to get in the helicopter and

13:32

zoom out a little bit. I

13:34

came across this article in the Atlantic

13:36

with the title Kate Middleton and the

13:38

end of shared reality. And this was

13:40

an idea that I've sort of

13:42

been seeing everywhere for probably six

13:45

months. And this has brought it to

13:47

a head, which is that

13:49

with conspiracy theories, the Tinfoil hat,

13:52

everything that we're saying is

13:54

now possible. So that

13:56

image isn't real. What they're telling

13:58

me isn't true. All of that. That is now possible

14:01

in a way that it

14:03

wasn't. And so people say,

14:05

oh, that's an AI image. She was never

14:07

there. Yeah. I'm going to say funny

14:09

because there are funny aspects to this, even though clearly

14:11

there's a really distressing story at the heart of it.

14:13

But with a photo

14:15

saying, Parlus admits Kate never

14:17

existed. Yes. Like, yes. That

14:20

is not the stuff of Black Mirror anymore. Exactly. Of

14:22

course, if she does, if she does. It does

14:24

feel like some sci-fi storyline. This

14:27

photo, the reaction to it, the

14:29

press agencies killing it, and then

14:31

this nonsense response has given credibility

14:33

to all of that tin hat

14:35

stuff. Exactly. And photo

14:37

agencies have long been

14:40

pissed off at the palace

14:42

and also Rishi Sunak, who-

14:45

The prime minister. Who is the prime minister of

14:47

the UK and releases his own images. And

14:49

they really hate that because it pushes them

14:51

out of a job firstly. Well, social media

14:53

full stop. Yes, that's that. But

14:56

this is like taking professional photos and considering themselves.

14:58

And of course, every photo of Sunak is

15:00

like a statesman like, it's an image of

15:02

propaganda. And they've always hated that. And

15:05

so this is probably something that

15:07

photo agencies are very excited about because they're

15:09

like, this is why you need us. This

15:11

is why you need us to be taking

15:13

the photos because we're delivered this. We then

15:15

try and send it to you and it's

15:17

wrong. We can verify for its provenance.

15:20

Yeah, exactly. And it's untrustworthy. And

15:23

so the idea that deep

15:25

fakes and this generative AI thing

15:27

that we're only just getting

15:29

our heads around, it's

15:31

destroying any remaining shreds of

15:34

a shared reality, what this

15:36

article was saying. And we're at a point where we can't

15:38

trust anything we see. And Kate Middleton

15:40

is one thing. And I think,

15:43

you know, this isn't so much about her health,

15:45

but this is about a larger story. There

15:47

are really serious implications because when it

15:50

comes to things like elections and global

15:52

conflicts, now what we've got is

15:55

people with their own media, with their

15:57

own truths, with their own evidence. And

16:00

it's not just, I don't agree with you. It's,

16:02

I don't believe your images. I

16:05

don't believe your videos. So

16:07

unless you're there to see something, and

16:10

the fact that we seem to be quite

16:12

apathetic and almost joking about this, it's like,

16:14

no, we have no shared sense of what

16:16

the world is anymore. And I feel very

16:19

uncomfortable about that. That got heavy quickly, well,

16:21

dark. Well, she's right. I

16:23

mean, and we've talked about this before in terms of

16:25

everything. I mean, look at America and look at the

16:27

intense polarization. I say, I

16:29

think Donald Trump is the savior. But

16:32

like, you know, it's the savior of American values.

16:34

And I think he's the Antichrist. And I can

16:36

show you all my evidence here and I can

16:38

show you all my evidence there. And

16:40

we'll never agree. We'll never agree in the

16:42

middle. It's interesting because conspiracy

16:44

theories are gaining momentum by the day.

16:47

But back to this, I

16:49

feel like they are just throwing

16:51

her like red meat for the

16:53

wolves to allow people to speculate

16:55

endlessly. They should never have

16:57

let that image go out. You were saying

16:59

earlier, it's also interesting, the lack

17:02

of support from other worlds. So

17:04

I think the other thing that's

17:06

really interesting here. We're having chemo.

17:08

When we look, where's Camilla? When

17:11

we look, oh, I'll tell you.

17:13

She's been on a holiday, but now she's back at

17:16

work and she's just had a Barbie made of her.

17:18

And there's a very cute video of it on the

17:20

Royal Family Instagram. They're ignoring all of this and just

17:22

getting on with their lives. She needed a little training.

17:24

She's got a Dua Lipa soundtrack. It's very cool. Anyway,

17:27

I think when we look back at this period

17:29

of Royal history, which people will do, Prince

17:32

Harry's book, where he basically spelled out that

17:34

one of the things that's really toxic and

17:36

wrong about the Royal Family is that instead

17:38

of being a united front and a united

17:41

force, it's all these little fiefdoms. And each

17:43

one has their own press department and

17:45

their own publicity team. And they're in

17:47

competition with each other. And I think

17:49

if this exposes anything, it's how ridiculous

17:51

that is, as if the Harry and

17:53

Meghan thing didn't. So what you'll notice

17:56

is that the Royal Family Instagram account,

17:58

which is Prince Charles and Camilla's. Instagram

18:00

account. It used to be Clarence House, but since

18:02

he's become king, it's the royal family. You'll barely

18:04

see William and Kate on there because they're a

18:06

different team, right? With different people, right? With different

18:08

people. So on there, you'll see at the moment,

18:11

obviously, you'll see a lot of people who are

18:13

filling in for the king. So you'll see Princess

18:15

Anne and you'll see Sophie and people who nobody

18:17

cares about, right? But you'll see them and Camilla

18:19

and her Barbie. And if you

18:21

want Wills and Kate,

18:23

you go to the Prince and Princess

18:26

and Wales' Instagram, where they're selling their

18:28

story. And luckily, Harry and Meghan just

18:30

updated their website for freelance opportunities. Remember that?

18:32

That's true. And so what's interesting is there

18:34

are mutterings that this whole mess with William

18:37

and Kate is not bad for King Charles

18:39

because it's a distraction from everyone speculating about

18:41

his health. Like, how's that going? Is he

18:43

well? Is he not well? Is he sicker

18:45

than he says? Is the health of treatment

18:48

going? So he's just been putting out these

18:50

very sober. He has been taking some Zoom

18:52

calls. He's been doing this and that. Can

18:54

Camilla really go and hold it? Camilla went

18:56

on what they called a sunshine break for

18:58

a few days to recoup because she's been

19:01

working very hard. And the thing

19:03

is, is that why? How hard would

19:05

it be for Charles and Camilla to

19:08

release a statement in support of Kate? Now that

19:10

would be unconventional because what they're all

19:12

still really trying to do is put their fingers in

19:14

their ears and go, La, la, la, this will pass.

19:17

But also, I don't want to say

19:19

anything about media or people speculating because

19:21

at least not speculating about media. Is

19:23

that what you're saying? And that's what

19:25

Harry said very clearly in spare. He

19:27

said that warring press departments will hand

19:29

out things about their principles, as they're

19:31

called, to deflect from their principles. So

19:34

King Charles is the royal family's principle

19:36

and William is the... Why

19:38

don't they just put all this shit together? Why

19:40

don't they realize that what people want is a

19:42

slimmed down, Simple version where they're

19:45

not infighting in this strange way? Everything

19:47

Harry Said about the dysfunction of that

19:49

family, that system is on very clear

19:51

display with all of them. He Must

19:54

feel very vindicated. This is why I

19:56

can't see why Harry and Meghan would

19:58

leak anything. With feed

20:00

with my fade out and guy I

20:02

told you side I couldn't resist a

20:04

little jab he i told you say

20:06

cause I feel so victimized I'd just

20:08

not the time rate the room The

20:10

queen once said that she needed to

20:12

be seen to. They believed people. Need. To

20:15

see you constantly. So

20:17

to may have had to guess. ah, speculate

20:19

about what's going on with that image because

20:21

I think her excitement of his health is

20:23

one thing and I still don't wanna go

20:25

down that track that the image itself and

20:27

think she knew she had to be seen

20:29

to be believed. I don't think she was

20:31

in any position to take a photo with

20:33

her three kids and so whether that photo

20:36

was taken to whether they just got a

20:38

bunch of things over there was a about

20:40

I phone six months ago. Yeah, maybe it

20:42

was. He never said it wasn't She never

20:44

said it was in the caption. A

20:59

random picture of a nice risks

21:01

a martini with a twist, A

21:03

nice A jacket I bought lightly

21:06

and me listing some very heavy

21:08

was welcome to the Instagram seat

21:10

of a newly single midlife man

21:12

not your brother's friend. Same species

21:14

act when a Hollywood mega stuff

21:17

of. Terawatts

21:19

and wrote this week she jackman doesn't

21:21

know how to be seen as hundred

21:23

grabs it apparently says it's a nice

21:26

his socks no one who knows a

21:28

midlife man segment. Doesn't seem to have a

21:30

strategy in his house, is that really? Sets

21:32

of maybe postings very

21:34

if your partner bring.

21:37

a single demolish him suing me with

21:39

a mouse around like the i guess

21:41

my i'm going know this is just

21:43

my dad if he ever posted spare

21:45

either don't post or they do this

21:48

and it's like it's better when you

21:50

don't push this it's interesting because his

21:52

say that the moment is just insists

21:54

that just says traps because this and

21:56

pits of him in the gym lifting

21:59

thing with did this today. I

22:01

don't know how to caption it. You

22:04

know what, that's like Instagram 10 or

22:07

so more years ago. I know. Which

22:09

I love. Men and social media are

22:11

incompatible. They don't work together. He doesn't know what

22:13

to do. He knows he's got to be honest. He's

22:15

trying to relaunch. He's trying to thirst. He

22:18

doesn't know what to upload. Sometimes it's

22:20

thirst. Sometimes it's quirk. Sometimes it's his

22:23

major's being spontaneous. It's very adorable. It's

22:25

adorable. Adorable's the word, I think, actually.

22:27

Contrast this with a much younger, newly

22:29

single Australian man, one Robert Irwin. He

22:31

just broke up with his girlfriend of

22:34

a year, Rory Buckley. Fun fact, he

22:36

fled his niece. Stop. I

22:38

didn't know that. That Hollywood power couple. I want

22:40

an Australian power couple. That would be... I had

22:42

sent Robert Irwin's Instagram profile to maybe 10 of

22:45

my friends. Oh, I do. I keep saying, we've

22:47

got to get you in a room with Robert.

22:49

He's so eligible. He seems like a lovely young

22:51

man. And he's good on his strategy. Well, here's

22:53

the thing, though. Is he young? Isn't

22:56

he a baby being hurled over an alligator? That's

22:59

hiring him. That's a really good girl. How has he

23:01

even got any of your kind of care? He's got

23:03

a good strategy. His strategy is clear. It's, I'm hot.

23:05

And I feel icky saying that because, like, you

23:07

say me. So he's so hot.

23:11

He's 20 years old. And he posts his dog.

23:14

He posts casually blue steel thirst traps,

23:16

but like kind of self-deprecating ones. And

23:19

he posts pictures of the paparazzi with jokes about

23:21

how they're trying to get to him and stuff.

23:24

My question is, do single people need a

23:26

comms strategy in 2024? And

23:29

is this a job for Kate Middleton's

23:31

soon to be unemployed press secretary? Absolutely.

23:35

We have spoken in the

23:37

past about... Yes, look

23:39

how gorgeous he is. When he's not,

23:41

like, beaming and being like, I just

23:43

love animals. I like it

23:45

when he loves animals. Women love boys who

23:47

love animals. Yes, dogs. We have spoken in

23:49

the past about relaunching. And we spoke about

23:51

it in the context of women who have

23:53

come out of a relationship. And they need

23:55

to announce to the world, otherwise

23:58

known as Instagram, that They are.

24:00

The here I have a friend. Who bought

24:02

a relaunch? stress? And. Knew it was

24:04

a color. She had a friend take a

24:06

photo shoots. she did I make up real

24:08

nice. I. Think that may have

24:10

been some bikini self com light up at

24:13

she just had to flag. I don't want

24:15

to sign that have a relationship but I'm

24:17

clearly courting unclear Lisa I'm sure to give

24:19

you have been watching may come with me

24:21

come where me and if you one off

24:24

me on a date then on prevail the

24:26

my life and on yes like I'm here

24:28

and him. Men: And

24:30

very launching their real quit specific

24:32

you Jackman I saw him on

24:34

Instagram. If I didn't know he

24:36

was recently separated I would know

24:39

he was recently separated from what

24:41

popping up which is just. A.

24:43

Little bit out of character, Slightly.

24:45

Too much very vague yeah strange captions. Sigma

24:48

it's very very flattering pit to sell his

24:50

be golden retriever and it's a yes or

24:52

the pitch seat of noise even count as

24:54

Kelsey the May I think he's in i

24:56

am Cold plunge era like has is that

24:59

why who claim taking lifeboat I miss meant

25:01

I know how that something and they don't

25:03

know how to tell you that this and

25:05

good I like that ones I didn't Comedy

25:08

and mic I think if you want to

25:10

slide into Hugh Jackman day and ask them

25:12

now my base so have you seen this

25:14

stuff about. The job of the cases of

25:17

dating I was found this really interesting

25:19

because we're kind of looking at these

25:21

instagram profiles of Shoe and Robin. Whatever.

25:23

Almost like as you said, Jesse their

25:25

assigned to the world Like I'm here,

25:27

I'm ready. Whatever. People

25:29

have a much less subtle about

25:31

that. now on dating apps but

25:33

much more specific south. Have you

25:35

seen his date me questionnaires? Man.

25:37

Yeah so I thought it looked

25:39

into. This is absolutely fascinating. So

25:41

basically people are saying that the

25:43

dating apps are a little. Bit

25:45

too abbreviated to really give

25:48

someone a sense. of years

25:50

and people are also really tired as

25:52

going on dates these people who aren't

25:55

right for them or who aren't interested

25:57

enough in them when they learn some

25:59

some So what

26:01

people are doing are things like predating

26:03

checklists that your prospective dates have to

26:06

fill out, they're making PowerPoint presentations or

26:09

they're making like Word documents or you

26:11

know, Google documents that they then share.

26:13

Now there's this guy who noticed that

26:15

a lot more people were doing them.

26:18

So he compiled a directory where anyone

26:20

can upload their dating

26:22

document essentially. It's

26:24

like a CV that you would write for yourself but

26:26

for a partner rather than a job interview. And I

26:28

went and had a look at them. Yeah.

26:32

Amazing. I looked at one and

26:34

it had essentially references. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was

26:36

a section on the one I looked at and

26:38

you can just choose by area you put in

26:40

whether you're male, female, non-binary, the age of the

26:42

partner and the gender of the partner that you

26:45

were looking for and then

26:47

the area that you are looking

26:49

in. And I didn't go and

26:51

look to see if there were many in Australia but

26:53

I was looking at some of the ones in the

26:55

US. And it's really

26:57

good. It's really helpful in that it's

26:59

like a job application and you look through

27:01

it and then she said, if you're

27:04

interested, can you please fill out

27:06

this form? So you're

27:08

applying. Correct. You're applying to date

27:10

her. And then the form that you fill out,

27:12

you need to upload a photo of yourself and

27:14

some other information about yourself. It's obviously not as

27:16

long as the profile that she's submitted. I

27:19

think it's great because women like to give more

27:21

information and they also like to receive more information

27:23

so that we're not wasting time. Everything

27:25

has always felt like a job interview, I

27:27

think. Like a first date is a job interview. Of course.

27:30

Yes. So let's be honest about

27:32

it, right? Exactly right. You always sit there and

27:34

feel like you've got to bring up the three

27:37

facts. How are you in a

27:39

crisis? All that kind of stuff I feel like does

27:41

come up. And Instagram, I suppose, serves

27:43

as the shut window of a

27:46

snapshot of what your life looks like. I

27:48

suppose that's what Hugh Jackman's doing is he's like, how

27:50

do I want to portray myself? I want people to

27:52

know I'll cold-plunge. I want people to know I'm training

27:55

for you. I want people to

27:57

know I've spent with Ryan Reynolds. And

27:59

they are important things to know. I know, but what he needs help

28:01

with is his captions. He needs a

28:03

copy of that. I think that's true. I just

28:05

think that if we've learnt nothing else from

28:07

this week and our Photoshop scandal is

28:10

that pull the curtain back. Let

28:13

your freak flag fly. If it's that

28:15

you like cold plunge and you make

28:17

daggy emoji, like I think that's endearing

28:20

and important. I think otherwise it becomes

28:22

like Cyrano de Bergerac and you've got

28:24

someone spinning for you and

28:26

pretending to be you by making a cool caption. And

28:29

that's not what you like at all. What I did

28:31

learn is that on this podcast a few weeks ago,

28:33

I said the sentence, men don't use

28:35

exclamation marks. Hugh Jackman

28:37

does. He loves an exclamation mark. I

28:40

retract my statement. He's a

28:42

daddy dad and I love it. Welcome to

28:44

my 2023 dating rap. There

28:47

were 22 men in my life this year.

28:50

Starting off with how many dates I've been on, 15. This

28:53

does include first, second and third date. So

28:55

do not judge. And then on my first

28:58

date, this is how I met them.

29:00

I met one at a funeral

29:02

and he was cute. One was

29:04

from Instagram. I met one at

29:07

a bar and two at bingo.

29:09

Mamma Mia Out Loud. Out

29:13

Loud is if you want to listen to

29:15

us every day of the week and why

29:17

wouldn't you? You can get access to exclusive

29:19

segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays by becoming a

29:21

Mamma Mia subscriber. Follow the

29:24

link in the show notes to subscribe and

29:26

a big thank you to all our current

29:28

subscribers. British

29:34

pop star Lily Allen says having her

29:36

two kids ruined her career. Now

29:39

Lily Allen is 38 years old. You

29:41

likely know her song Smile and Not

29:43

Fair. And she is married to

29:45

David Harbour who was in Stranger Things. He

29:49

isn't the father of her kids. That would

29:51

be businessman Sam Cooper who she later divorced.

29:54

But they have two kids together, Ethel who is 12

29:56

and Marnie who is 11. This

29:59

week in an interview. you with the Radio

30:01

Times podcast. She talked about kids

30:03

and career and here's what she

30:05

said. My

30:07

children ruined my career. I mean, I love

30:09

them and they complete me, but in terms

30:12

of like, you know, pop-sod them, totally ruined

30:14

it. Really annoys me when people say you

30:16

can have it all because quite frankly you

30:18

can't. You know, some people choose their career

30:21

over their children and that's their prerogative, but

30:23

you know, my parents were quite absent when

30:25

I was a kid and I feel like

30:27

that really left some like Nazi scars that

30:30

I'm not willing to, you know, to repeat

30:32

online. And so I chose stepping

30:35

back and concentrating on them and I'm glad

30:37

that I've done that because I think they're

30:40

pretty well-rounded people. I'm so glad you played

30:42

that in context because when you read the

30:44

headlines, Lily Allen says having her two kids

30:46

ruined her career, it sounds

30:49

like a very different thing. It does. But hearing

30:51

her say that then because I was also reminded

30:53

that she's very wry. She's

30:55

got that real British funny,

30:58

sarcastic irony. She's funny. And that's the thing

31:00

is that a headline won't let you know

31:03

she was laughing when she said it and

31:05

it also doesn't tell you the end of

31:07

that sentence might bury it at the end

31:09

of the article, which is that I chose

31:11

to do that because of X-Files. So this

31:13

idea that she's blaming her kids for the

31:15

apparent demise of her career, because I felt

31:17

really misleading when I first read it. I

31:19

was like, maybe you just weren't good enough.

31:21

Maybe, you know. Here's a question and it's

31:23

an obvious question, but why do

31:26

you think? Because when she said it, it sounds like

31:28

this is just Lily Allen's story, blah, blah, blah. This

31:30

headline is everywhere, including on Mamma Mia. Why

31:33

would that be? Jesse Stevens, you think. Why

31:35

do people want to click on children ruined my

31:37

career? Look, I think there are a few people

31:39

clicking on that article. One

31:41

thing is that women who don't

31:44

have kids but think they might have kids one

31:46

day can't look away. Because

31:48

it's a cautionary tale. Because it's a cautionary tale.

31:50

And it's what you're scared of. And this is

31:52

what I was trying to say before having my

31:54

baby, is that I felt like everything in the

31:57

world was telling me how having a baby would

31:59

ruin my life. And

32:01

I would get really irritated by that,

32:03

but I have changed my position a

32:06

bit because why does

32:08

what you say about your life have to be helpful

32:10

to me? I don't think everything a

32:12

woman says has to be helpful to another woman. I think it

32:14

can just be true. So for example,

32:16

there's an article on Mamma this week by Monty

32:18

Diamond talking about having three kids and she's like,

32:20

my third kid sent me over the edge. And

32:23

my initial reaction was like, well, don't tell

32:25

me that. What if I want three? So

32:27

it's not the, my third child completed our

32:30

family. Well, it is that too. Yeah. Whenever

32:32

you click on the article, it's both things.

32:34

But it's funny because everyone I

32:36

know with three kids went, oh, that article is spot

32:38

on. They wouldn't give the third

32:40

kid back, but they're just trying

32:42

to say that their life sort of

32:45

became chaos. But I do want

32:47

to provide a bit of extra context with the Lily Allen

32:49

thing. Because I was like, Lily Allen, I

32:51

don't think your career has ended. But

32:54

the context is that she's actually turned

32:56

her attention to acting. She

32:58

recently appeared in a play in the West

33:00

End and it went on to score her

33:02

a Best Actress Olivier Award nomination in 2022.

33:05

In 2018, she released an autobiography. She's

33:07

been busy. Yeah, no, she's

33:10

talking about at the time when she was

33:12

a pop star. That's my reading of that

33:14

because she did that song Smile.

33:17

She had a couple of bangers,

33:20

which she had a really long career

33:22

as an important Taylor Swift-like

33:24

musical artist. Who knows? Maybe.

33:27

Probably unlikely. But I

33:29

think what's interesting is this idea

33:31

of, and the reason that women want to

33:34

read it is, oh, thank God, someone's saying

33:36

the quiet part out loud. I

33:38

think ruin without picking hairs on this because

33:40

she said it in a funny way and

33:43

I get exactly how she said it. I

33:45

think that the big fear that kids will

33:48

ruin your career is probably

33:51

an extreme version of it. Change

33:54

your career trajectory? Almost

33:57

certainly. And isn't that the point?

34:00

it might actually change your career trajectory

34:02

in a good way. I just said

34:04

change. Yeah, I know. So without a

34:06

value judgment. No, no, you didn't have

34:08

a value judgment, but lots of people

34:10

do. Sure. And I think that it

34:12

will change your career, changes everybody's career

34:14

in different ways, but it also might

34:16

actually really help your career. Because one

34:18

of the things that she said that

34:20

does annoy me, because it annoys me when anyone ever says

34:23

it, people say you can have a

34:25

doll and you can't. And I just hate the

34:27

whole concept of having it all. Because

34:29

it's such a female thing, like all having it

34:31

all means is I have a family and a

34:33

job and men have been having a family and

34:35

a job for a hundred years. Most women in

34:37

the entire world have a family and a job.

34:40

Of course you can have it all. What a

34:42

load of nonsense. Anyway, but

34:44

what is an irrefutable fact? There

34:47

are a couple of... You should change it to

34:49

do it all, not have it all. Exactly. But

34:52

an irrefutable fact is that when you have children,

34:54

you have to look at your priorities, right,

34:57

because there are a couple of things you

34:59

can't outsource. You can outsource loads of stuff

35:01

and share as well between you and whoever

35:03

is raising your kids with you. But

35:06

time and presence, physical presence,

35:08

are two things that

35:10

you cannot outsource and you only have

35:12

so much time, right, in the day,

35:14

hours in the day. So

35:16

you have to look at what

35:18

do I want my family life to

35:21

look like? How many hours of the

35:23

day, like in the most

35:25

basic terms, how many hours of the day

35:27

do I want to spend with my child,

35:29

like physically in their presence? And that's going

35:31

to change whether they're a little baby in

35:33

your house or whether they're a teenage school

35:35

kid who rolls in the door at whatever

35:38

time, it's going to change, but someone

35:40

has to spend some time with the children,

35:43

right? And what I've seen happen over and

35:45

over again, and sometimes for the absolute better,

35:48

is that women will make a decision at

35:50

some point when their children are smallish that

35:52

they want their work to become more flexible

35:54

in inverted commas. And that gets denigrated at

35:56

the minute a lot about like, oh, they

35:58

want to work from home and no one wants to work. card and all

36:00

that stuff. But what they mean is mostly

36:02

I don't want to be absent from my

36:04

home in all the hours that my child

36:06

is awake. And that will

36:09

very often take you in some interesting

36:11

directions. Because if you're working

36:13

in a traditional kind of business

36:15

or job, and maybe it's got shift

36:18

hours, maybe it's got prescribed office hours,

36:20

maybe it doesn't, and you also your

36:22

care is conventional, as in it relies

36:24

on the opening hours of childcare centres

36:26

and schools, which most people care to,

36:29

you're going to have to figure that out. And

36:31

it often leads you in more interesting directions in

36:33

that way of thinking, well, maybe I want to

36:36

work differently. Maybe I need to make different decisions

36:38

about the kind of work I want to do,

36:40

because I just don't want to be absent. And

36:42

that's kind of what she's saying. She's an epo

36:44

baby, right? She had a mum who's

36:46

really famous in Britain TV producer-director, she

36:48

had a dad who was a very

36:51

famous iconic 90s actor.

36:53

They were all about their lives. She

36:55

didn't see them very much and was famously told

36:57

by lots of times the rebellious kid who moved

36:59

around. They just weren't there. That's

37:02

the tricky bit. And the end of

37:05

what she said is the real

37:07

clincher for me, which is something

37:09

I didn't know before I had

37:11

my own baby, because you're right, Holly, is

37:13

you go, someone's got to be there with

37:15

the kids, right? And there's all this half-two

37:17

language. You can't prepare

37:20

for how much you're going to want to

37:22

be there at certain points. And that's what

37:24

she's saying. I struggle with

37:26

the language of children come along and they

37:28

pillage your finances and they ruin your sleep

37:31

and they destroy your career and blow up

37:33

your marriage and blah, blah, blah. And it's

37:35

like, why would you ever have one that

37:37

don't give you anything? There's such a

37:40

negative spin on it. But what Lily Allen

37:42

is actually saying is, I want

37:45

to be with my kids. It's where

37:47

you want to be for a lot

37:49

of people. Can't we look at it

37:51

as seasons though? As you pointed out,

37:53

Holly, she was in

37:55

her pop star season. Then she

37:57

had her mum of young

37:59

children's season and it sounds like

38:01

now she's moving into a different season

38:04

and a different season of

38:06

her career which is as an actor and as

38:08

an author and it's a new

38:10

season. Instead of this idea of something's ruined,

38:12

something's destroyed, something has to give. Can't ever

38:14

come back. How many women are we seeing

38:16

having a second act sort of as their

38:18

kids move into high school or? They're just

38:20

seasons. They're just seasons. I will say though

38:22

there's something in this and this is why

38:24

the headline annoyed me so much

38:26

is I have a friend who

38:29

had this baby right and every time he's had three

38:31

drinks he'll look at you and he'll go I was

38:33

meant to be a famous actor. I

38:35

was meant to be an actor. I went to acting school and

38:38

my kid like he will say this

38:40

completely earnestly my kid

38:42

ruined that for me. Like my kid ruined

38:44

my career and I see the resentment coming

38:46

off him. I think you're kidding yourself if

38:48

you think your kid can't see and feel

38:51

that resentment. Yes. And that to

38:53

me I'm going firstly your kid didn't. I

38:55

don't think you ever destined to be that

38:57

famous actor. But I

38:59

always hate that. I hate people who

39:02

think that their child use their child

39:04

as an excuse for the great person

39:07

that they were going to be. Yeah, well

39:09

if that's the story he has to tell

39:11

himself. Yes. But you know what? There will

39:13

be people for whom that's true. There will

39:15

be people for whom their career had a

39:17

certain momentum and then they had kids and

39:19

for whatever reason often circumstantial and entirely out

39:21

of your control your kids needed you, like

39:23

really needed you. And those first few years

39:26

maybe your kids need have special needs. Maybe

39:28

you have no support at all. Maybe your

39:30

partner leaves you. Maybe like a million things

39:32

that probably don't have anything to do with

39:34

your choices. Because choices is such a weird

39:36

word in this setting. And you have to

39:38

take yourself out of for a while and maybe

39:40

that time is never coming back. Most

39:43

people can find a way back in a different way.

39:45

Life just looks different to how you saw the best

39:47

laid plans and all that stuff. But

39:50

there are also people who will definitely

39:52

say, well yeah it did totally change

39:54

and ruin my career. But I did

39:56

something else or I got something else.

39:58

Or I think the reason everyone clicks on

40:00

these stories is because we want there to be one

40:02

answer. We want there to be an answer that's like

40:05

working when you've got little kids is bad or

40:07

working when you've got little kids is good or

40:10

working when you have little kids is easy or

40:12

whatever. And it's just not like that. It's so

40:14

different for everybody and it's so different depending on

40:16

your circumstances and your work. A

40:20

little treat. A little treat. A little treat. Outlouders,

40:25

we don't do recommendations on Mondays and Wednesdays

40:27

anymore. We do them on Fridays so that

40:30

you can head into the weekend with lots

40:32

of inspiration. Instead, at the end

40:34

of each show, we are going to

40:36

look at a little treat example idea

40:38

from one of you from an outlouder.

40:40

Today's little treat comes from an outlouder

40:43

named Leanne who said, I had to

40:45

go and do food shopping like a

40:47

drone, had some sushi afterwards and scrolled

40:49

my phone alone as a reward with

40:51

bliss. Literally gave me little excited butterflies

40:53

like I'm doing something naughty. A bit

40:56

of sushi and the scroll of your phone. Could

40:58

that be anything better? Share

41:00

your little treats with us on Instagram or in

41:02

the outlouder Facebook group. Before we

41:05

go, this year's Oscars. There

41:07

weren't any slaps or, look,

41:09

I was going to say incorrect winner announcements,

41:11

but in fact, was it Robert Downey Jr.

41:14

who did the final one? No, it's Al Pacino.

41:16

It does look a little bit like Robert Downey

41:18

Jr's father. He didn't read the

41:20

wrong name, but he just didn't. He forgot to

41:22

read the nominees and then he went, it looks

41:25

like it says Oppenheimer, which was the most anti-climatic

41:27

best picture award I've ever seen in

41:29

my life. It wasn't great. But we

41:31

needed to talk about some of the

41:34

fashion. We needed to talk about Ryan

41:36

Gosley. We needed to talk

41:38

about Emma Stone, bit of controversy around

41:40

her win. A lot of superficial detail

41:43

to cover up. Lots of detail. And Gosley,

41:45

that performance has become my little treat. I've

41:47

watched it 15 times. Of course you have.

41:49

We needed some space to really sit down

41:51

and dissect for this in the way that

41:53

we felt it deserved. I don't

41:55

know if I've ever seen a male performance with

41:58

this much going on. going

42:00

on with this much dancing, this much fun

42:02

and costume. Well, since we're there, let's talk

42:04

about it. The best thing by like a

42:06

mil... Not only of this Oscars, but I

42:09

think of like any Oscars I've ever seen.

42:11

How much joy to see... Because

42:13

he is a capital A accent, Ryan Gosling.

42:15

He has been in serious movies, he's been

42:17

in silly movies, he's been in rom-coms, he's

42:19

been in musicals, he's been in art house

42:21

and he's a big deal. And

42:24

he did not need to tap dance for

42:26

anyone unless he really wants to. If

42:28

you want to listen to that, then there's a link in

42:31

the show notes for our full Oscars. Thank

42:34

you out louders for listening to us

42:36

talk about Kate Middleton. Well, I'm in

42:38

heaven. It's been like three times consecutively.

42:40

I can't believe you remember two days

42:43

ago when I tried to tell you

42:45

we can't talk about Kate Middleton anymore.

42:47

She's trolling me personally. I'm sure this

42:49

season will pass, Jessie. I'm sure this

42:51

season too will pass. Anyway,

42:53

thank you for listening to us. This

42:55

episode was produced by Emily and Gazilla,

42:57

the assistant producers. Charlie Blackman has been

42:59

audio production by Leah Porges. And we'll

43:01

see you tomorrow. Bye. Don't

43:04

forget to subscribe to get the first news about

43:06

the show tickets. Shout

43:08

out to any Mamma Mia! Subscribers listening.

43:11

If you love the show and

43:13

want to support us as well, subscribing to Mamma Mia!

43:15

is the very best way to do so. There

43:17

is a link in the episode description.