0:00

You're listening to our Mama

0:02

Mia podcast. Mama

0:04

Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

0:07

waters that this podcast is recorded on. Hi,

0:10

it's Holly and I'm in Manchester, England

0:12

at the moment and Mia and Jesse are away

0:14

on a family holiday in Fiji. So we're in

0:16

different parts of the world, but we really wanted

0:18

to just jump on and talk to you ahead

0:21

of the proper show today. We're leaving the show

0:23

in very capable hands today. We are going to

0:25

get a regular Mama Mia out loud with Claire

0:27

Murphy, Claire Stephens, Gemma Bass and they're going to

0:29

do an amazing job. But we

0:31

also knew that the way we were feeling in different parts

0:34

of the world would reflect the way a lot of out

0:36

loud is a feeling. And we just wanted to sort of

0:38

give you all a virtual hug, I guess. We've

0:41

never actually had an instance

0:43

where all three of us are away for

0:45

a regular show. And we

0:48

had no intention of jumping on

0:50

today. But after what happened at

0:53

Westfield Bond Auto Junction on Saturday, we just

0:56

felt that we had to. We've

0:58

all been really shaken by the news

1:00

out of Sydney while

1:02

we've been away. As

1:05

I know that all Australians have

1:08

been, I think, as well as

1:10

the international community, the shocking brazen

1:13

and horrific nature of the

1:16

crimes that took place on Saturday afternoon,

1:18

the first day of the school

1:20

holidays with thousands of shoppers

1:23

in Westfield Bondi Junction

1:25

has just shaken,

1:28

absolutely shaken us and feel

1:31

particularly affected by the killing

1:33

of Dr. Ashgood and

1:36

the attack on her nine

1:38

month old baby Harriet. That

1:40

has just been something that

1:42

feels impossible as a national and

1:45

international community to process. I've

1:47

been in Manchester for a very quick family

1:49

visit. It's my dad's eighth

1:52

birthday party and my dad isn't very well.

1:54

So it's been very weird

1:57

week for me because it's my dad's eight

1:59

years. I've been putting together

2:01

all these photos like a slideshow of

2:03

his life and reading all these lovely

2:05

words from people about him. When I

2:08

was thinking about it this morning and what I

2:10

wanted to say on this call, because nothing we

2:12

can say is going to change the horror of the

2:14

situation. But it's what

2:16

violence takes from us, right? Is that possibility

2:18

of future and celebrations and all

2:20

the things that won't happen and

2:22

the privilege of getting to live

2:25

a long life like my dad's

2:27

doing, even though the later years

2:29

are certainly shaky, that's what was

2:31

taken from these people, mostly women,

2:33

on Saturday. And we just kind of

2:35

really wanted to have a quick talk about it,

2:37

didn't we? Because the first thing I did

2:39

was the top story here, was breaking on

2:42

the radio all over everywhere here. The top

2:44

story was obviously jump on and say, are

2:46

you two okay? Those images and those videos

2:48

that have come out, the

2:51

Westfield element or the shopping centre

2:53

element is universal for a lot

2:55

of Australians, especially Australian mothers who

2:57

have spent so many hours

3:00

walking up and down. I've sat on

3:02

a level that I'm now seeing on

3:05

world news, breastfeeding my baby and I've

3:07

changed nappies and all of that. And one

3:09

of the first things I thought when I

3:12

started seeing footage was, oh,

3:14

that's the level where all the baby shops are. That's

3:16

where I go to get my baby clothes and

3:18

that's where I was 48 hours ago with Luna,

3:23

who is only a few days

3:25

older than that baby girl, Harriet,

3:27

had her in my pram. And

3:30

so it's the proximity I

3:32

think that has shaken us. I have

3:34

walked through Bondi Junction so

3:36

many times and interacted without loud,

3:38

it's shattered to them as

3:40

they kind of, you know, experience the maternity

3:44

leave or whatever it is. The

3:46

horror of what happened to a

3:49

mother and a baby in a place

3:51

that feels so safe,

3:53

that feels like third

3:56

space. We have our home

3:58

and our work and then we have this space that we can do. and we

4:01

can go to where we feel we can

4:03

take our babies and be engaged. And the

4:06

things that have crossed our minds, the sliding

4:08

doors of being there

4:10

at that time and how your life

4:12

is dictated through nap times and feeds and

4:14

the horror to me is what she saw

4:18

and that she then died not knowing if

4:20

her baby would be OK. I

4:23

mean, the bravery of that mother is just something

4:25

that I hope she can be remembered

4:27

by because that was

4:29

remarkable that she managed to save that

4:31

baby's life. I think that

4:34

when something like this happens, the things

4:36

I compare it to is 9-11 and

4:38

the Lindt Cafe

4:40

siege where it's just so random. It's

4:43

a normal place where you would feel

4:45

safe, where it would never cross your

4:47

mind to be vigilant in

4:49

the way that it would in almost every

4:51

other public space. You

4:54

know, I know people are wanting to

4:56

rush to anger and indignation. And

4:59

I think that that's a much more comfortable

5:01

place to be, one of fury and indignation.

5:03

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with

5:05

that. But the reason we

5:07

rush to that is that the reality of it, the

5:10

randomness, the senselessness,

5:13

the fact that it could have been any of us, that's

5:17

just too scary. It's too confronting

5:19

and it's too distressing.

5:21

So to move

5:24

past that, we try to say something

5:26

should change and it's someone's fault and

5:29

something should have been done and someone

5:31

should do better. And, you

5:34

know, we're recording this 24 hours after it's happened

5:36

and there are still a lot of details to

5:38

come and maybe there will be lessons to learn.

5:40

But also maybe there

5:42

won't. Maybe this is just one

5:45

of those tragic things that

5:47

is just tragic and that makes all of us

5:49

feel so incredibly vulnerable. I think

5:51

there is a lesson. I think it's the same

5:53

lesson that we learn

5:56

over and over and over again

5:58

when senseless, awful, violent, and things

6:01

puncture our worlds in whatever way. And

6:03

it's, you have no control

6:05

over anything really other than how you treat the

6:07

people around you. Tell the people that you love

6:09

that you love them. You know,

6:11

love your baby, love your friends. You know, the

6:14

people who left their homes that day to do

6:16

those ordinary things. And look, we know this is

6:18

a very specific shopping center in this very specific

6:20

place, but it is the randomness that's scary. But

6:22

it's that thing that everybody who left their homes

6:24

that day, the lives

6:27

well-lived, you know, from these beautiful,

6:30

mostly women, not only women, who

6:32

have been murdered in this way. You know,

6:34

the people who love them will remember them

6:36

always. The only lesson over and over again

6:39

is, you know, love the people you love

6:41

hard and live your life with kindness and

6:43

respect. The only thing that buoyed me yesterday

6:45

was, and I know that there

6:48

will be so much attention paid to this as there

6:50

should be, is the extraordinary

6:52

bravery of some people in that

6:54

shopping center and of police in

6:56

space at Amy Scott. Because

6:59

running towards that, that danger, doing what

7:01

needed to be done, and

7:04

then she tried to do CPR on that man

7:06

after she stopped him. That is the definition of

7:08

grace. She saved so

7:10

many lives. She changed so many lives.

7:13

There is extraordinary kindness in the face of

7:15

this horror, and it doesn't matter where

7:17

you are in the world. The people who are trying to help

7:19

are often harmed. And

7:22

I think that the lesson is the same one we're

7:24

taught over and over again about humanity, which is, you

7:27

don't know what's going to happen. You've just got to

7:29

love everybody as much as you can. And I know

7:31

that sounds really soppy and

7:33

it's probably very informed by the fact I'm

7:35

about to say goodbye to my family again

7:37

after this week of dealing with my unwell

7:40

dad. But that's the lesson I'm choosing

7:42

to take 24 hours after. To

7:44

everybody who's been affected, I know you don't have

7:46

to live in Sydney. You don't have to know

7:48

any of the victims. You don't have to have

7:50

been to Bonde Junction Westfield to be shaken

7:52

by this. To feel incredibly

7:54

distressed and vulnerable. We're sending all our

7:57

love to all our beautiful outlouders and

7:59

to... the victims and to the brave

8:01

people who helped and who

8:04

tried to help. We're thinking of you

8:06

all and we are giving you all

8:08

a big hug and we'll be back

8:10

in your ears very soon. We

8:12

will and we're leaving you in the very capable

8:14

hands of our colleagues and I'll be back with

8:16

you on Wednesday. Hello

8:20

and welcome to Mama Mia Out Loud,

8:22

what women are actually talking about on

8:24

Monday the 15th of April. I'm Claire

8:27

Murphy and I'm driving this

8:29

train, Holly Wainwright style. Normally I'm the

8:31

host of our daily news podcast The

8:33

Quickie and today we do have

8:35

a very different show for you Out Loud

8:37

is because your regular lineup of hosts, none

8:40

of them are here. Holly, Jessie and Mia

8:42

are all on holidays for today. So

8:44

coming up on the show today of course Australians

8:47

are grieving the unthinkable acts

8:50

that took place at Westfield Bondi Junction. We

8:52

are going to talk about that Bruce Lerman

8:54

verdict and the child star

8:57

rebrand that has gone horribly wrong or

8:59

has it. So let's get into it.

9:01

I'll introduce you to today's

9:03

step in host. I'm Claire Murphy normally

9:06

from The Quickie Mama Mia's Daily News

9:08

Podcast and joined today by not Jessie

9:10

Stevens but Clay Stevens. I

9:13

am Claire and I am the host of

9:15

Cancelled and But Are You Happy? I'm taking

9:17

a short break from maternity leave to be

9:19

here today and for her first appearance on

9:22

Mama Mia Out Loud please welcome Gemma Bass.

9:24

Hi yeah what a sombre day to start

9:26

and be in the chair for the first

9:28

time. Feels weird to do this but I

9:31

might just give a little bit of a

9:33

background so you know who I am. I'm

9:36

a writer and an editor here at Mama Mia.

9:38

I've been here for about five years. I'm also

9:40

the host of one of our podcast True Crime

9:42

Conversations and when

9:44

I'm not at work I am a mum to

9:47

a 15 month old little boy called Max and

9:50

I live very very close to

9:52

Bondi Junction Westfield. So a very

9:54

strange day to be in your

9:56

ears but hopefully we can really

9:59

unpack it. and make you all feel seen because

10:01

I know it's something that I've been really struggling with

10:03

this weekend. But first, we

10:06

have to talk about the biggest story of the

10:08

day. Well, tonight's news,

10:10

we hope we'd never have to deliver

10:12

in this country a mass killing of

10:14

Sydney's biggest shopping centre. So

10:17

Australians are feeling really shocked

10:19

today, two days later, after

10:22

the Westfield attack, heartbroken, devastated,

10:25

all of the emotions after

10:27

what unfolded at Westfield Mondeau Junction at

10:29

around three o'clock in the afternoon, such

10:31

a normal time for

10:33

families, kids,

10:36

everyone to be out and about. A

10:39

40-year-old man entered the shopping centre and

10:42

he senselessly attacked innocent shoppers just going

10:44

about their ordinary Saturday afternoon. Now

10:46

a few days later, and I feel like that shock is

10:49

still really palpable. Let's just

10:51

walk through the details first of what

10:54

actually happened. Claire, you've been covering it

10:56

really closely. On the quickie, where

10:58

are we at? What are the latest details

11:01

with Saturday's tragedy? Well, first up, some good

11:03

news. We've just heard that the young baby

11:05

who was caught up in this attack and

11:07

who was also attacked with a knife is

11:09

recovering really well and has really rallied over

11:12

the last 24 hours, which is really,

11:14

really good news. We also heard this morning that

11:16

one of the victims who was taken to hospital for

11:18

treatment has been released too, but there are still

11:20

several more in hospital. At

11:22

the time of us recording this, six

11:24

people have lost their lives. Five

11:27

of those are women. One of them is a man.

11:29

We'll just quickly take you through who all these people

11:31

are. It's really important to understand too that we

11:34

don't know of the outliers listening to

11:36

this, whether these people are your friends or

11:38

your family and if they are our

11:41

deepest, deepest condolences. But

11:44

38-year-old mum, Ashley Good, which I think is

11:46

the one that's hitting us all the hardest,

11:48

she was attacked by this man, as was her

11:51

nine-month-old baby who was a baby who was in

11:53

a pram, reportedly, at the time not in her

11:55

arms. She then desperately

11:57

grabbed her baby and ran towards two men.

12:00

for help and to the mental care

12:02

baby and help the baby while she

12:04

was receiving treatment on the floor in

12:06

Westfield. 25-year-old Dawn

12:08

Singleton, daughter of renowned Australian businessman John

12:11

Singleton, she also died. She worked at

12:13

a white fox store and her colleagues

12:15

described her as really sweet and kind-hearted.

12:19

For us to hear is the only man who has

12:21

died in this attack and in the

12:23

aftermath of what happened all the disgusting slurs

12:25

that were thrown about on social media as

12:27

to who this attacker was. It's

12:29

really poignant that the only man who

12:32

was killed in this attack is a

12:34

30-year-old Pakistani national who only arrived in

12:36

Australia a year ago fleeing violence. He'd

12:39

moved from Brisbane down to Sydney for work and

12:42

this was his first day shift as a security

12:44

guard. And he was protecting people is what we've

12:46

been hearing. He was trying to protect people and

12:49

lost his life. There were initially people who

12:51

said, where were Westfield security? Where were Westfield

12:53

security? This is where. Yeah, they were right

12:55

there. They were doing their best to stop

12:57

this man. 47-year-old Jade

12:59

Young, she's an architect, mother of two, also

13:01

a member at Bronte Surf Life Saving Club

13:03

who cancelled their events yesterday in the wake

13:05

of her death. 55-year-old

13:07

P. Korea Dachi, she's an artist,

13:09

a designer. She is originally from

13:11

Georgia where she studied performing arts,

13:13

moved to Australia and then studied

13:15

business admin at Sydney TAFE. The

13:18

victim who was identified today is Yizhuang Cheng.

13:20

She's a Chinese national who was studying here

13:22

in Australia. And we

13:25

know that the attacker is a 40-year-old man. He was

13:27

shot dead by police or one

13:29

lone police officer, a woman,

13:32

which I don't know how I feel about that.

13:34

I feel kind of proud that she was the

13:36

one who took control of this situation. We know

13:38

the people rushed in behind her to help her

13:40

as she needs support, but she assessed that situation.

13:43

So a man with a knife saw the victim, saw

13:45

him rush at her. She told him

13:47

to put the knife down. She warned him. She took the

13:49

shot. And I guess the

13:51

thing we're struggling with the most today, Claire

13:53

Stevens, is just guide how close to home

13:56

this is. I also

13:58

live just up the road from... Bondi

14:00

Junction Westfield and spend a ridiculous

14:03

amount of time there and it is the

14:05

place that you feel

14:07

safe and where I really feel

14:10

for the family of Ashley Good because

14:12

when you're a new mum and

14:15

sometimes you feel annoying you feel like you

14:17

when you're out you're conscious of your baby

14:19

and you're conscious of irritating

14:21

other people and Bondi Junction

14:24

has the best parents room

14:26

and Mums joke about it

14:28

that you spend all your time there because of how great

14:30

the parents room is and as Jesse

14:33

said earlier where this attack happened was so

14:35

close to the children's shops

14:37

the parents room and that

14:39

makes me feel really sick the other thing

14:41

that really has struck

14:44

me looking at the

14:46

footage is that

14:48

he attacked women

14:51

because It

14:53

seemed like he wasn't physically

14:55

intimidated by them So he

14:58

seemed to sort of be lunging at people

15:00

and when a larger man Lunged

15:02

back at him he would back off

15:04

and you can just imagine that if you're

15:07

a mum with a pram You're

15:09

so defenseless this idea

15:11

of whether there was misogyny behind

15:13

it whether this was an Attack

15:16

on women it still

15:18

is because the fact is that women

15:21

aren't as physically strong Generally,

15:23

and you have this man Attacking

15:26

them and it's just it's so sickening I've

15:28

seen so much about people who were there

15:30

people who had close calls And I just

15:32

think there are so many people touched by

15:34

this who are not going to be the

15:36

same and who a shopping center Is

15:38

no longer going to feel like

15:40

a safe space, which is ridiculous. That's what

15:42

makes me feel the

15:44

most anger is That

15:47

this man has taken away That

15:50

safe space for us Because just last

15:52

night I was talking to my mum on the phone and she says

15:54

to me I have an appointment to go to today and it's

15:57

at a Westfield I

15:59

was like Oh shit, what do

16:01

I say to her? Like, do I tell her to be

16:04

careful? Do I tell her to be wary?

16:06

She's in her 70s. She can't defend herself

16:08

from a 40-year-old man with a butcher's knife.

16:11

And now this has happened. And

16:15

the response we'll hear about it is from

16:17

people who will say, but not all men.

16:20

And we'll point out the really good

16:22

men in that building, the bollard holding

16:24

hero and the lifeguard who plugged bleeding

16:26

wounds and the brothers who held the

16:28

baby. And it's like, we

16:31

can't trust that you're not going to be that man. It's

16:34

enough men. Women are dying every week. It's

16:37

enough men. And we can't trust that you're not going to be

16:39

that guy. And rather than deal with

16:41

the aftermath, we get the hero stories. And

16:43

it's just God, I'm sick of it. I'm

16:45

sick of not having a

16:47

result. There are government programs and we shame

16:49

men and we show them our pain and

16:52

our fear and that we can't even breathe

16:54

in public without the fear that one of

16:56

you will bloody murder us. And

16:58

we're like, not all men. Stop.

17:01

Men, you have to fix this. You

17:03

have to fix this. We can't even bloody

17:06

defend ourselves. You need to fix it. I

17:08

can hear that you're already at anger, Claire. And

17:10

I feel like I'm not even there yet. I

17:13

can't feel anger yet because I'm

17:15

still just so sad. I

17:18

think for me, I'm six

17:20

months ahead of Ashgood. And I

17:23

know we're focusing on that story, but it's because

17:25

Claire and I are new moms. Jessie is a

17:27

new mom. So that's the story that it's human

17:29

nature. You relate to the story that kind of

17:31

fits your own world. And

17:33

I'm six months ahead of Ash. My baby is

17:35

15 months old. As

17:38

I parented him this weekend, I just

17:40

kept thinking about the small details, the

17:43

fact that my son, I'm still the

17:45

only one sometimes, most of the

17:47

time that can settle him, that he wants

17:49

to be with, that can put him back

17:51

to sleep. And the thought of

17:55

baby Harriet when she eventually goes home

17:57

from hospital, not having her mum. to

18:01

be there. They're the

18:03

details. I can't get out of my head. The fact

18:05

that her mum won't be there when

18:07

she turns one. And

18:09

the difference between a nine-month-old baby and

18:11

what I'm experiencing six months later is

18:13

chalk and cheese. My son is walking.

18:16

He says words. He has a personality.

18:18

He says, mama, at nine months old,

18:20

he did none of that. I was

18:22

only seeing glimpses of him. And

18:24

Ash is not going to experience any of that. And

18:27

those are the details. And it's not just

18:29

Ash. I mean, I'm focusing on her. But

18:31

think of Dawn Singleton. Like

18:34

she was supposed to get married this year.

18:36

She just bought a wedding dress. Her family

18:38

now has to call that boutique and

18:40

say, my daughter's never going to wear

18:43

that dress. Like, though the

18:45

other mother of two, it was the

18:47

start of school holidays this weekend. Does

18:49

that mean forever more those kids are

18:51

going to be triggered whenever a school

18:53

holiday comes around? I

18:55

think by putting yourself in the

18:57

shoes of these families and the

19:00

ripple effects that will happen for

19:02

years, decades, these people's

19:05

entire lives, all because

19:07

one man, one man, decided

19:10

to do this on a Saturday afternoon. I

19:12

mean, I think it's one of those times

19:14

where the fact that we see

19:17

imagery, when this used to

19:19

happen, you didn't see imagery. But now that people

19:22

can film stuff and put it up straight away,

19:24

you're seeing stuff. You're

19:26

seeing the chaos and

19:28

the confusion that everyone's like, sorry, did

19:30

that just happen? I think a guy

19:32

just stabbed someone. It

19:35

doesn't make any sense. And I think what you

19:37

say about that baby

19:40

coming home from hospital and crying

19:43

for a mum that isn't there and

19:46

not knowing why mum

19:48

isn't there. That tragedy

19:50

is just not something that

19:53

any of us would expect

19:56

in Sydney, Australia, in somewhere

19:58

where we feel so safe. And

20:00

that I think is also part of the problem

20:03

is that we don't think this

20:05

happens here. We

20:07

often think we're safe. It's Australia.

20:09

We don't have guns. We don't have gun

20:11

violence like the US does, but

20:14

we have violence. This maybe

20:16

doesn't happen on this scale all the time, but

20:18

it happens on a smaller scale every

20:20

day. Like every day

20:22

this is happening here in this country.

20:25

And then we're shocked when it happens

20:27

on a larger scale. The really fascinating

20:29

thing I've watched unfold is when

20:32

this initially happened, people trying to

20:34

attribute motives to this person.

20:37

Who was he? What was his ideology?

20:39

Was it a political ideology, a religious

20:41

ideology? And when you zoom out, it

20:43

was male violence against women. And this

20:46

is the conversation we keep having week

20:48

after week after week. And for some

20:50

reason when it's male violence against women,

20:53

we see it as kind

20:55

of apolitical. There's no

20:57

ideology. It's just a tragedy. But

21:01

this is seriously something

21:03

we need to confront because women

21:05

not feeling safe in a shopping

21:07

center is not something

21:10

we should have to experience. I'm

21:12

hopeful that this is different because

21:14

usually men's violence against

21:16

women is happening behind closed doors. It's

21:19

happening to former partners or

21:21

current partners by husbands, boyfriends,

21:24

sons, that kind of thing. This

21:27

is different. This is stranger violence,

21:30

men's stranger violence in a public place.

21:32

And it is impossible to ignore this.

21:34

So my only kind of takeaway apart

21:36

from all of the heroes in this

21:38

story that kind of stepped up my

21:40

only hopeful takeaway is that this

21:43

is so loud that surely we can't

21:45

ignore this any longer. Like surely,

21:48

like this is the catalyst. This is where

21:50

we change. I say that with

21:52

a question mark because how can we not? I guess

21:54

that's the big hope, isn't it? And we

21:57

just have to be able to maybe look back at this

21:59

in. six months' time and see if anything indeed

22:01

has changed. But

22:04

I think it's also fair to point out that there

22:06

is another family who's also suffering and that's a family

22:08

of the man who did this awful thing and

22:11

who have come out in support of that

22:13

incredibly brave police officer who went in and

22:15

confronted him and understood the job that she

22:17

was doing and understood that the only response

22:19

she had was to take the life of

22:21

their son. They've

22:23

been fully supportive of her and hope that she's

22:25

okay mentally. They've also lost

22:27

a son to a system

22:30

that allowed him to spiral into worse

22:32

and worse mental health. I

22:34

know we're all feeling pretty helpless and

22:37

that's the one thing that kind of hits us

22:39

after anything like this happens is how can I

22:41

help, what can I do, what can I change.

22:43

But there are actually really practical things you can

22:45

do in this particular situation and one of those

22:48

is to donate blood. The

22:50

Australian Red Cross Lifeblood has put out a fresh

22:53

appeal for people to donate in the wake of

22:55

these horrible events in Bondi over the weekend. So

22:57

if you are capable of

22:59

doing so, please get along to your local

23:01

donation centre. You can also find them online.

23:04

So if you just Google the

23:06

Australian Red Cross Lifeblood, you'll be able to

23:08

figure out where your closest centre is and

23:10

criteria for becoming a blood donor too because

23:12

not everybody can. So check it out. And

23:14

if you or someone you know is in

23:17

need of support right now, there are services

23:19

available to help 24 hours a day, seven

23:21

days a week. Halfline is

23:23

available on 13 11 14. Beyond

23:27

Blue is available on 1300 2246 36. We

23:34

will put all the links in the show notes,

23:36

but please, please seek help if you need it. This

23:38

is such a hard

23:40

time for many Australians and there are

23:42

so many people waiting to help. It's

24:18

a huge news day today from the

24:20

dark to the equally as heavy. We've

24:23

just had the judgment handed down

24:25

in Bruce Lemon's defamation case against

24:27

Network 10 and journalist

24:30

Lisa Wilkinson. Now you'll

24:32

remember that Lerman faced a criminal trial in

24:34

2022 accused of raping then Liberal staffer

24:38

Brittany Higgins in Parliament House in 2019.

24:41

I feel like it's a sentence that

24:43

we've repeated over and over again. It's a

24:45

story that everyone knows, especially the women of

24:47

Australia. That

24:49

trial collapsed due to

24:51

juror misconduct and Higgins decided not to

24:53

go through with a retrial because it was

24:56

simply too traumatizing. Her mental health had been

24:59

affected too much. So the case we're talking

25:01

about is a civil case that was brought

25:03

about by Lerman. Claire,

25:05

talk us through it. Justice

25:07

Michael Lee gave the findings today.

25:10

He started giving his judgment about 10.15am. It

25:14

went for many, many hours. Certainly

25:16

did. And it didn't start off great

25:18

either because he sat down, told us that it

25:20

was a 324 page verdict

25:23

that he was going to start reading,

25:25

called the whole process at Omni Shambles

25:27

and then the feed, the live feed

25:29

from the courtroom went mute and no

25:31

one could hear anything. So

25:33

they had to adjourn court, fix

25:35

a technical issue and then he came back

25:37

again and started delivering this verdict. Now

25:40

a lot of it is legal speak. So a

25:42

lot of this verdict is breaking down every single

25:44

piece of evidence and whether it was truthful or

25:47

not. But at the heart of

25:49

it all, there's a defamation case. Did

25:51

Network 10 defame Bruce Lerman when they

25:54

aired that interview with Brittany Higgins and

25:56

Lisa Wilkinson in 2021? Network

26:00

10 had to kind of prove

26:02

that they didn't identify him, which

26:04

they didn't, but they did. And

26:07

we'll get to that in a second. What

26:09

Justice Lee found and the thing that

26:11

kind of overarchingly we were all

26:14

waiting for, which is really

26:16

interesting because Brittany Higgins is not even a player

26:18

in this case. She's just a witness. She's

26:21

not even involved in this case. But

26:23

we're all waiting to find out whether

26:25

Network 10's truth defense was what

26:27

this would all hinge on. And

26:30

in order to prove that truth defense, they had

26:32

to prove that Bruce Lerman raped Brittany Higgins in

26:35

Parliament House in 2019. So

26:38

today, the Federal Court found

26:40

on the balance of probabilities that

26:42

Bruce Lerman did rape Brittany

26:45

Higgins that night in Parliament House,

26:47

here's Justice Lee. Mr. Lerman

26:49

raped Ms Higgins. I

26:52

hasten to stress this is a finding

26:54

on the balance of probabilities. This finding

26:56

should not be misconstrued or mischaracterized as

26:59

a finding that I can exclude all

27:01

reasonable hypotheses consistent with innocence. As

27:04

I've explained, there's a substantive difference between the

27:06

criminal standard of proof and the civil standard

27:08

of proof. And as a tribunal of fact,

27:11

I have only to be reasonably satisfied that

27:13

Mr. Lerman has acted up as I have

27:15

found. And I am not obliged to reach

27:18

that degree of certainty necessary to support conviction

27:21

on a criminal charge. So Claire,

27:23

what does that on the balance of

27:25

probability mean? Is Bruce Lerman going to

27:27

jail? Is he a criminal now? No

27:29

and no, of answer to those two

27:31

questions. This is a civil case. It

27:33

is not a criminal case. We as

27:35

Jim mentioned had a criminal case in

27:38

2022, which fell over due to that

27:40

juror bringing information into the juror's room

27:42

that they shouldn't. And then

27:44

when that didn't happen for round two on the

27:47

basis of Brittany Higgins mental health, there

27:49

has never been a criminal charge that Bruce Lerman

27:51

has answered. He's always denied having

27:53

any sexual contact with Brittany Higgins

27:55

at all. This defamation case

27:57

was brought against Network 10 and Lisa Wilkins.

28:00

But that truth defence meant that he

28:02

also had to answer to whether he

28:04

actually raped Brittany Higgins in Parliament House.

28:06

And because that statement

28:09

of it being the balance

28:11

of probabilities, it's very similar to what we

28:13

saw with Ben Robert Smith. He

28:16

was going for defamation against

28:19

several publications. But

28:21

in doing that, on the balance of

28:23

probabilities, that justice found that

28:25

he was substantially true a war

28:28

criminal. In this case, it

28:30

is substantially true that Bruce Lemon is a

28:32

rapist. And there's a lot of

28:34

detail in this judgment that goes through what the

28:37

consent was, whether consent was given, whether Brittany

28:39

Higgins said no, what Bruce Lemon's intentions

28:41

were. So there's a lot of breaking down

28:44

in this and it's very multi-layed. But no,

28:46

he doesn't have a criminal conviction. He's

28:49

just lost his defamation case against Network

28:51

10. And by losing

28:53

that in the truth defence, it

28:55

means that he is now someone who sexually

28:58

assaulted Brittany Higgins. And we are allowed to

29:00

legally say that. What about

29:02

Lisa Wilkinson? So this was about

29:04

Network 10 and Lisa Wilkinson. How

29:07

has this ended for her? It's

29:10

really interesting because the justice said that she

29:12

was like a very well spoken witness and

29:14

that she obviously is very professional and very

29:16

good at what she does. But

29:19

he did say that her reliance

29:22

on Network 10's legal team

29:24

to tick off that

29:26

speech that she gave at the logees is where

29:28

she's come undone. That legal team has let her

29:30

down. The justice did say

29:32

they should have known. They should have

29:34

known that that speech was going to cause issues. And

29:37

what issue it did cause was that

29:40

it put in jeopardy Bruce Lemon's right

29:42

to a fair trial because that speech

29:44

happened during the criminal trial back in

29:46

2022. You

29:48

cannot do that. You cannot put

29:50

someone's right to a fair trial

29:52

in jeopardy. So in that instance,

29:55

the justice has found that yes,

29:58

Bruce Lemon is entitled to damages. But

30:00

that's kind of the secondary part of this.

30:02

The main part of this was the truth

30:04

defense about what happened that night in Parliament

30:06

House. And basically it was Lerman

30:09

trying to clear his name. That's what this

30:11

is. He's trying to clear his name because

30:14

in most publications, he

30:17

is referred to a certain way and he doesn't

30:19

want to be referred to like that. But he

30:21

is failed, basically. That's what's happened. Can

30:23

this turn into a criminal trial again,

30:25

given that a judge has now said

30:27

on the basis of probability that

30:30

Bruce Lerman raped Brittany Higgins?

30:33

Both of you are living

30:35

and breathing in the news far more than

30:37

I am. Do you think it's possible this

30:39

goes to a criminal trial? That's up to

30:42

the prosecution. That's up to

30:44

Brittany Higgins. This is

30:46

a huge day for Brittany Higgins, even

30:48

though, as Claire said, she was not

30:50

involved in this particular case. This is

30:52

the first instance where she

30:54

has some kind of whiff

30:56

of justice. So

30:59

this might have given her some renewed,

31:01

and I don't want to put words

31:03

in her mouth, but maybe she will

31:06

decide that it's worth going ahead and

31:08

doing a retrial in the criminal court.

31:11

But we won't know at the moment. The

31:13

focus is obviously on this. And I think

31:15

one of the most incredible things to take

31:17

away from today is that

31:19

judge, Justice Michael Lee, there's

31:22

a lot of talk that he

31:24

had a very trauma-informed response in

31:26

the way he spoke about sexual

31:28

assault. That is

31:30

unheard of in our court systems,

31:33

to be talking and understanding the

31:35

nuanced way that sexual

31:37

assault victims might

31:40

behave after the fact. I want

31:42

to give a quick example. He

31:44

kind of rejected the so-called, and he

31:46

called them, rape myths about how an

31:48

alleged victim should behave. And

31:51

he regarded the evidence that Ms Higgins

31:53

accepted a cup of coffee from Lerman

31:55

and exchanged emails the following Monday. Those

31:58

kinds of instances are used to to discredit her,

32:01

to say how could she possibly

32:03

have been raped because she emailed

32:05

him on Monday. The

32:07

judge said, I have little doubt

32:09

that if she had been raped,

32:11

that by time of these interactions

32:13

it's quite conceivable that Ms Higgins

32:15

would have been driven by conflicting

32:18

emotions, self-doubt, concern, she would be

32:20

humiliated by word leaking out to

32:22

her colleagues and the question about

32:24

the prudence of the behavior. I

32:26

haven't heard stuff like that in

32:28

a public setting where a judge has said

32:31

stuff like that. This is

32:33

a landmark case for Australian

32:35

women, I think, and it is

32:37

fascinating that it's a landmark case

32:39

where we are hearing those statements

32:43

on this scale for the first time

32:45

and it is a case that Bruce

32:47

Lerman brought thinking he was getting justice.

32:50

It feels like a really emotional day. It does.

32:53

Just to go back to you asking about whether

32:55

this will ever become a criminal conviction again, there

32:57

is a different burden of proof between a defamation

32:59

case and a criminal case. So this

33:01

is not beyond reasonable doubt. That's

33:03

what you have to achieve when you are in a criminal

33:05

trial. Substantially true is different

33:07

to beyond reasonable doubt. So it won't

33:10

automatically mean a criminal trial happens and

33:12

Jim's right. It depends on the prosecution. It

33:15

depends on Brittany Higgins and at

33:17

this point it doesn't seem like that is

33:19

going to eventuate. But you're right,

33:21

the commentary we're hearing around this, Justice

33:23

Lee basically said to everyone

33:26

who was listening today, Brittany

33:28

Higgins is a victim. She's

33:31

just not the perfect victim that you expected her

33:33

to be. And he

33:35

mentioned how all of the things

33:37

that she did in the aftermath of that night in 2019

33:40

could absolutely be construed as a victim of

33:42

sexual assault trying to figure out her next

33:45

steps, trying to figure out if she goes

33:47

to police, trying to figure out her place

33:49

in her workplace now that one of her

33:51

colleagues is the man who sexually assaulted her.

33:53

I think it's such an amazing way

33:56

for this judge to understand that sexual

33:58

assault doesn't mean fine. or flight.

34:01

It doesn't automatically mean that you will break down

34:03

and become a husk of a person even though

34:05

there were behavioural changes in Brittany Higgins as was

34:07

noted in the verdict. It's

34:09

really interesting and I think what Lisa

34:12

Wilkinson said outside court today was

34:14

she said, I feel glad for the women of

34:16

Australia today and I think

34:18

we're all feeling a little bit that way because

34:21

there was a possibility that this verdict could have

34:24

gone another way and

34:26

then we were thinking where does that leave everybody else

34:28

who's trying to fight this fight? Where

34:30

does that leave everybody else who's sitting here

34:32

currently right now thinking do I don't

34:35

I? Do I pursue a

34:37

criminal path? Do I pursue a civil case?

34:39

Like do I make that decision? I think

34:41

it maybe has helped a lot of people

34:43

make that choice today. I think what today

34:45

and this finding has brought us back to

34:48

is what this story was always

34:50

actually about and over the last

34:53

few years both Lisa Wilkinson and

34:55

Brittany Higgins have been dragged through

34:57

the mud. There are certain media

34:59

outlets that relentlessly attacked them

35:02

that went to their character that seemed

35:05

to imply that they were liars

35:08

and manipulators. They have been destroyed

35:10

and the most horrible things written

35:12

and said about them and

35:15

now we can look at this and

35:17

say this all happened. This

35:19

entire story happened because on the balance

35:21

of probability by the federal court Bruce

35:23

Lerman raped Brittany Higgins in Parliament House

35:25

and I think we need to take

35:27

a long hard look at ourselves because

35:29

this story veered so far from what

35:32

was at its core and

35:34

somehow a woman saying the wrong thing

35:36

or getting a book deal was made

35:38

out to be worse than a potential

35:41

rape. The best quote I think to

35:43

come from this entire judgment kind

35:46

of pinned on that arrogance and

35:49

I do use that word but he had the

35:51

the confidence to kind of go forward and it's

35:53

audacity isn't it like the absolute

35:55

audacity to sue somebody

35:58

for defamation. Yeah and then It's

36:00

been found to have done this, but

36:03

the judge used the phrase, having escaped the

36:05

lion's den, Mr Lerman made the mistake

36:07

of going back for his hat. And

36:10

the fact that, as you said

36:12

before, Claire, we've seen it with Ben

36:14

Roberts Smith, these men doing

36:18

awful things and then coming back

36:20

to defend their reputation and then

36:22

sitting in a courtroom, going

36:25

through all the evidence and saying, oh my God,

36:27

you're actually worse than any of us thought that

36:29

you were. Because for so long they've gotten away

36:31

with it. But today's judgment

36:33

shows us that maybe that's changing. Yeah,

36:36

it's been a massive day in news

36:38

and we'll be continuing this conversation over on

36:40

the Quickie tomorrow morning. So if you want

36:42

to get the latest updates and what legally

36:44

happens from here, make sure you tune in

36:46

tomorrow morning from 6 when the Quickie

36:48

goes live. And if this story

36:50

has raised any issues for you, help is

36:52

available on 1800RESPECT. Please

36:55

seek help and take care. We will link

36:57

resources in the show notes. One

37:02

unlimited Out Loud access, we drop episodes every

37:04

Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and Mia

37:06

subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes

37:09

to get us in your ears five days

37:11

a week and a huge thank you to

37:13

all our current subscribers. Because

37:22

when the world is really dark and

37:24

scary, we need some lightness and silliness

37:26

to try to balance it out. So

37:28

that's what I wanted to bring today.

37:31

And the ridiculous rabbit hole that I've been very

37:33

deep in involves the disastrous rebrand

37:36

of former Dance Mums star Jojo Siwa.

37:38

Oh, she is Dance Mums girl. I

37:40

didn't know that. Yes, she

37:43

had the bow and the blonde hair and

37:45

the silly outfits and the glitter. And the

37:47

high kicks. Yeah, such an

37:49

enthusiastic dancer. Jojo

37:51

became a reality star when she

37:53

was nine when she appeared on a

37:55

Dance Mums spinoff, Abby's Ultimate Dance Competition.

37:58

She was very blonde and very extroverted.

38:00

And I saw a video the other day

38:02

which said she has been bleaching

38:05

her hair since she was two or three.

38:07

What? No. She's not blonde. She's got brown

38:09

roots. Well, that's not her fault. I know.

38:11

There are some questions to be asked of

38:13

Jo JC Wells' parents. I bleached my hair

38:15

once and nearly fried it off. How does

38:17

someone bleach their hair from the age of

38:19

two and not have just a bird's nest

38:22

on their head? How does she have any

38:24

hair left? I know, it's miraculous. We should

38:26

do a podcast on that alone. She

38:28

was then on Dance Mums, then launched a

38:30

YouTube channel and released music. She toured

38:33

around the world and she sold out

38:35

huge stadiums for young girls and their

38:37

parents. I remember Holly Wainwright having a

38:39

conniption a few years ago when she

38:41

was like, excuse me, my daughter is

38:43

obsessed with someone named Jo Jo. She

38:46

is now 20 and she's released a new

38:49

song. And like many artists who

38:51

kind of graduate from that Disney

38:54

or Nickelodeon or child

38:56

star fame, she

38:58

is trying to be a grown up and

39:01

she's trying very, very hard. And

39:04

ahead of her new song being

39:06

released, which is called Karma, there

39:08

was a warning. And this is actually before

39:10

you had even heard the song. And so

39:12

it was actually great publicity. She released this

39:14

warning that said this song was

39:16

not made for children and it may be

39:19

disturbing or offensive to some viewers. So she's

39:21

cutting off her children's support. Is that it?

39:23

You're gone. I feel like a man who

39:25

has watched it. Were you?

39:27

I wouldn't call it disturbing. Were you just,

39:29

oh my God, so shocked. So shocked. Then

39:32

Karma was released and it is the single

39:35

weirdest thing that has ever happened. This

39:56

song itself is what can only be described

39:58

as cringe. And I would say that That is

40:00

a negative thing. I say that as a lot of the

40:02

things I find joy in are cringe. It just makes you

40:04

want to have a giggle. Like

40:06

not in a negative way. It just makes me

40:08

want to giggle. She's dry humping

40:10

the floor. No. It's very

40:13

I'm a bad girl but glitter

40:15

edition. Is this like I'm a

40:18

bad girl Miley Cyrus twerking against

40:21

Robin's dick at the VMAs? Weirder. Weirder?

40:24

And even Miley seemed, it seemed more

40:26

authentic. But

40:28

Jojo's like I'm a bad girl and

40:31

here are some stars

40:33

on my eye makeup. And for reasons

40:35

unknown, she's also like part mermaid.

40:38

Yes. Yes. She

40:40

comes out of the water and then starts kissing girls?

40:43

She is. Well actually she doesn't

40:45

kiss a girl and that's what's interesting. It's

40:47

this sexual stuff like humping, like dancing

40:50

humping. Or like fake kissing. Yeah

40:52

but she doesn't actually kiss. Oh wow that's interesting

40:54

that I thought she kissed. Of course you did.

40:57

Of course you did. That's what I

40:59

mean about it's very contrived. It's like

41:01

I'll simulate humping but I shan't kiss.

41:04

And I'm a bad girl but I won't swear.

41:07

Is it a rebrand? Are you a bad girl

41:09

Jojo? The dancing is, it's been

41:11

described as too much. She

41:13

goes way too hard. We've got to share

41:16

some videos of it on the Outlouder's Instagram

41:18

because she's just committed. She talks

41:20

about the song like she wrote it but

41:22

she didn't write it. She just bought it. It was

41:24

like 10 years ago. And

41:26

it's her behaviour in promoting it

41:28

that everyone is talking about. In

41:31

an interview she was asked if she

41:34

was taking inspiration from Miley Cyrus and

41:36

Taylor Swift and she said, Honestly I

41:38

look at some of the generation above

41:41

them, Michael Jackson, Prince, Elton, Bowie,

41:43

they are and of course Gaga. I mean take all

41:45

the inspiration from Gaga but those people for me that

41:47

were just not afraid Elvis was the first to not

41:50

be afraid to be different, to not be afraid to

41:52

be out there, to not be afraid to take a risk.

41:54

I mean the shit Freddie Mercury used to wear on

41:56

stage you'd be like what? No, but now it's like people

41:59

are afraid to be different. and we're all different,

42:01

we're all weird, we're all a little f***ed

42:03

up, and I think that's okay to show

42:05

that. She also claimed that this is the

42:07

beginning of a new genre of music called

42:09

gay pop. I want to start a new

42:12

genre of music. And they said, what do

42:14

you mean? I said, well, it's called gay

42:16

pop. The song's like, Applause by Lady Gaga.

42:18

It's the On My Own Miley Cyrus, Can't

42:20

Be Tamed Miley Cyrus karma. It's that

42:23

world of music. Then she had to backtrack

42:25

on that because everybody lost their s***, and

42:27

they were like, hey, gay pop has been

42:29

around for a really long time, such

42:31

as Elton John, which you mentioned. It's

42:35

confident. And then she said, okay,

42:37

I might be like the CEO,

42:39

or like CMO. I could

42:41

be the chief marketing officer of gay pop. Another

42:45

quote in an interview for Billboard was,

42:47

no one has made this dramatic of

42:49

a change yet. No one has made

42:51

in my generation this extreme of

42:54

a switch. She did an

42:56

entire interview on the Call Her Daddy podcast

42:58

with a fringed hat that was absurd. And all

43:00

the comments are like, she didn't wear that

43:02

hat the whole time. Yeah, she did. Gemma,

43:05

you're just as obsessed with this

43:07

JoJo story as I am. What

43:09

do you think of her rebrand

43:12

from Childstar to Very Bad

43:14

Girl Adult? I'm currently in the TikTok

43:16

hole of watching other dancers do the

43:18

same choreography. Are you in that hole?

43:21

And I can't go away. And doing it

43:23

in weird context. And they're just in their

43:25

house and then they break into this absurd

43:28

dance. I think for me, it's the earnestness

43:31

that I'm fascinated by. It reminds me of,

43:33

I'm revealing myself here, but I was a

43:35

theater gal. I

43:37

went to a performing arts high school.

43:39

It's very theater. Shout out HSPA. And

43:42

it is so my high school. It

43:44

is, hi, mom and dad, look at

43:46

me. I'm hitting every step. It's that.

43:49

It's the overconfidence, the obsession with her

43:51

own rebrand that I love. I love

43:53

her for it. I wish my

43:55

kids had this much confidence from how

43:57

old. Part of me thinks. that

44:00

it's all orchestrated. Like this was her

44:02

plan. JoJo is looking

44:05

at the Miley's and I know she's compared

44:07

herself publicly, but look at

44:09

Miley. Miley was ridiculed for a lot of

44:11

the things that she did in her rebrand.

44:14

And now she's everything. She is everything. Everyone

44:16

loves Miley. She is what she wanted to

44:18

be. She transformed from being a child star

44:20

to an adult pop star. And we've admitted

44:23

it. We're giggling. It's funny. So I think

44:25

JoJo will come out the other end of

44:27

all of this craziness and her fringed hat

44:29

and her stars and her eyes and

44:32

it will mellow out and she will succeed. Like

44:34

I think there is a PR person behind

44:36

the strings going, yeah, JoJo, this will work.

44:39

And the interesting thing is the people

44:41

who have made the film clip, who

44:43

have done the choreography, who have been

44:45

involved in all of this, are the

44:47

same people who have been working with

44:49

her whole career. So it's not a

44:52

rebrand in any actual technical sense of

44:54

her being like, I'm leaving my childhood

44:56

behind and doing this on my own.

44:58

She's saying, come on guys, let's rebrand

45:00

me. I'm gonna wear black glitter now.

45:02

Okay, I just watched the video. I'm

45:04

glad. The humping is

45:06

like impressive. Like there's not

45:09

just humping, there's flip humping.

45:12

There's spin humping. And you're

45:14

right, there's almost kissing. It's

45:16

very dark. It's very like

45:18

edgy, but it's like super

45:21

exaggerated. Imagine if in real

45:23

life, you were like a

45:25

real child star and you had

45:27

to one day come out and kind of announce that

45:29

you were no longer a child star, that you were

45:31

in fact a grown woman now. And

45:33

all that awkward stuff you do in that

45:35

interim period, which thankfully for me, being the

45:37

age that I am, was never caught on

45:39

social media. It has

45:42

to be done like in this big

45:44

grand gesture, like my womanhood has arrived

45:46

and I no longer had the child

45:48

you once knew. Like it's so dramatic

45:50

and it's so weird that we force

45:52

these girls in particular to do

45:54

this because the boys who were child stars one

45:56

day turn up as men and then we feel

45:58

weirdly attracted to them. not supposed to be. And

46:01

it's like, these girls, they

46:03

have to go like, I'm not a girl anymore.

46:05

You have to leave that person behind. I'm a

46:07

woman now and I can see what she's doing,

46:09

but it's weird. The other

46:11

thing about JoJo is that her

46:14

absurdity, her earnestness, her

46:16

extraversion, I saw somebody say

46:18

whatever JLo has, which is

46:20

this strange announcement about her

46:22

own career, JoJo Siwa

46:24

has, which is the prodigy. I know.

46:26

I think they have a club where they

46:28

sit there and go, JLo,

46:30

you know how you did Jiggly and that's

46:32

all the rock of art. I am JoJo.

46:35

And this is my film clip for Karma

46:37

and it is also a work of art.

46:39

And they talk about being artists. I think

46:41

they're part of the same strange club where

46:43

it's like, I don't want to be rude,

46:45

but what you're creating isn't how

46:47

do we put it, highbrow. JoJo's

46:50

film clip and everything that she's

46:52

done since is so out of the box that

46:54

it can't be real. Like

46:57

it can't be real. That fringe

46:59

hat, the comments on the red

47:01

carpet, the dry humping, surely

47:04

this is part of the ploy. Isn't there

47:06

a beautiful space in this world for things

47:08

that are not highbrow? Like I don't know

47:10

about you, but I personally, I have the

47:12

taste buds of basic bitch half the time.

47:14

So if I see something that's

47:17

lowbrow, I don't necessarily go to the critics

47:19

page and see them give like a Rotten

47:21

Tomatoes four out of 10 or whatever. I'm

47:23

like, I don't care. I liked it. There is

47:25

space in the world for lowbrow art. I'm happy

47:27

to consume it. I don't know about you. Bring

47:29

it on JoJo. Absolutely. Out

47:32

Loud is if you have not seen

47:34

the film clip yet, if you do not have Pum

47:37

as a bitch, check in your head on repeat,

47:39

which I do, please go and

47:41

watch it and let us know what you think

47:43

in the Out Loud is Facebook group.

47:46

It's a TikTok rabbit hole for

47:48

the ages. Please spend your time

47:50

wisely. What's some

47:52

of the best career advice you have

47:54

ever received? Well, on last week's episode,

47:57

Holly, Maya and Jesse revealed some of

47:59

their best. career advice and

48:01

here is a sneak peek. Just

48:04

say yes and the person who told me this

48:06

is my favourite and they said this isn't popular

48:08

anymore. That's so funny that's what I've written down

48:10

because when I was thinking about my best career

48:14

advice I was given it was to say

48:16

yes and then I wrote down problem boundary.

48:18

I don't

48:20

mean say yes to everything that anyone asks

48:23

you to do like can you pick up

48:25

my shoes from the cobbler? That's

48:27

the thing anymore? Or like you know

48:29

whatever what I mean is when someone

48:31

says oh hey these interviews come up

48:33

with blah blah and it's like

48:36

feel the fear and say yes.

48:38

Yeah a link to that episode will

48:40

be in the show notes. Well friends if

48:42

you want to hear some more from the three

48:44

of us little stand-ins that

48:46

you've had today you can check out

48:48

the podcast that we actually do for

48:51

a living every other day. For

48:53

myself it's the Quickie, Mama Mia

48:55

Sally News podcast for true crime

48:57

lovers Gemma Bass does a fantastic

48:59

job on true crime conversations. It'll

49:02

get you right into the heart of some of the

49:04

best known crimes with the people who know the most

49:06

about them and of course Claire Stevens who

49:08

is on but are you happy with

49:11

his top of charts all over the

49:13

shop because it is so bloody glorious

49:15

and cancelled which is one of the

49:17

funniest podcasts around and the

49:19

new one Baby Bubble which is really

49:21

exciting so go and check all of us

49:23

out on all of those other podcasts you

49:26

won't regret it I promise. Thanks

49:28

for listening to Australia's number one news

49:30

and pop culture show this episode was

49:32

produced by Emmeline Gazellas the assistant producer

49:35

is Tali Blackman with audio production by

49:37

Leah Porges. Bye! Shout

49:40

out to any Mum Mia subscribers listening if

49:42

you love the show and want to support

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us subscribing to Mum Mia is the very

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best way to do so. you