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You're listening too. Mama

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Mia Podcast. Mama Mia

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acknowledges the traditional owners of

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the land we have recorded this podcast

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on. the categorical people of the

0:11

nation. We pay our respects

0:13

to their elders, past, and present, and

0:16

extend that respect to all aboriginal

0:18

and torreshed islander cultures.

0:24

Hello and well come to Malomir out

0:26

loud. It's what women are talking about on Wednesday,

0:28

the fifth of October, and we're very excited because

0:30

tonight. No. We're

0:32

very excited because tomorrow

0:35

That's how excited we are. It's our

0:37

first live show, and

0:39

it's in orange in regional New South Wales.

0:42

And so after we record this show today,

0:44

we're getting on plane. Yeah. We are

0:46

traveling through the rainy storms

0:48

of New Orleans, but how do we

0:50

get our ride again? And, you know,

0:52

you've heard what tour life is like. You've seen

0:54

the movies. Sex and drugs

0:56

and toys and sandwiches. Yeah. It's all

0:59

happening. Don't ask me to tell you what happens

1:01

because what happens on two stays in our

1:03

own. Exactly. I'm Holly Wayne.

1:06

may have Frayedman. I'm Emma Gillespie

1:08

filling in for Jesse Stevens. You might know

1:10

me as the producer of this podcast. Jesse

1:13

Stevens will be joining us in orange

1:15

because she is away for work at the moment. What could possibly

1:18

go wrong? No.

1:20

Also, there's floods, predicted, storms,

1:23

everything It's gonna be great on

1:25

today's show. The people the

1:27

fashion industry refused to cancel.

1:30

What is hope fatigue and how can

1:32

you overcome it? and what can

1:34

me a Friedman learn from a particular

1:37

mother-in-law drama that's playing out

1:39

in the very famous gonna plan.

1:41

But first, I'm sure outladders

1:44

are aware that a very high profile

1:46

trial has started in Australia and that is

1:48

the trial that involves the sexual

1:50

assault allegations that Britney Higgins has

1:52

made against a man called

1:54

Bruce Lehman. They're both former staffers

1:56

at parliament house. Now

1:58

if

1:58

you've been reading the reports

1:59

of that as I have and I'm sure everybody

2:02

has today about what happened on

2:04

Thursday of the trial yesterday, It's

2:06

very upsetting. And I know a lot of outliers

2:09

will be feeling that way, and you

2:11

might also be wanting us to

2:13

talk about it. I just wanna

2:15

give a little flag that we are not

2:17

going to be talking about that case very

2:20

much at all, if at all until the

2:22

verdict comes down. And there is a very good

2:24

reason for that. And that is that this

2:26

case is so high profile and so

2:28

much has been said about it that at

2:30

various times, it's actually

2:32

been in danger of being called off there's

2:34

been a lot of conjecture about whether or

2:36

not there can actually be a fair trial.

2:39

The last thing that any of

2:41

us would want to do at Mamma Mia is

2:43

jeopardize a fair trial in that situation.

2:45

It's too important a case. So

2:47

we are not going to be talking about the British Higgans

2:49

trial until it is over. I

2:51

just wanted to let outsiders know that in case

2:53

you're thinking, why aren't we talking about

2:55

that? But of course, on the web site momma

2:57

Mia dot com that are you rolling news

2:59

coverage there,

3:00

coverage over on the QuickYow news podcast

3:03

so you can stay up to date.

3:04

In case you missed it, big water bottles

3:07

are the latest and the hottest summer

3:09

trend. They're being called emotional support

3:11

water bottles. Have you seen these? No. No. Why

3:14

do need an emotional support water

3:16

bottle. Because hydration is very

3:18

important, Holly Wainwright. So there are

3:20

these enormous water bottles. There's a few

3:22

floating around our office, I wanna say they probably

3:24

hold maybe two or three liters big

3:27

bright new colored match things.

3:30

they're going off. The emotional support

3:32

water bottle hashtag has received sixty

3:34

four million views on TikTok. toughen

3:36

up people. they're

3:38

good. It's better than having buying

3:40

little plastic ones all the time. Yeah. Is

3:42

it? They're reusable. They're sustainable. Oh,

3:44

I love a water bottle, but it's the emotional

3:46

support part that I'm struggling with because

3:48

you carry them around kind of like a little

3:50

newborn baby. I think like you tuck them

3:52

in your arm and and they're just there for

3:55

you like and they're very

3:56

big. And I have some emotional

3:58

support tea which I take when

3:59

I travel. Oh, that's true. Have you packed

4:02

them? Oh, thank god. Yeah. This is

4:04

good because I was getting quite worried about the

4:06

Keep Cup market and the businesses that manufactured

4:08

Keep Cup, and is anyone still buying them? But

4:10

Frank Green, a aussie company, their

4:12

sales are up fifteen percent because of the big water

4:14

bottles. No. There you go. In

4:17

case you may that Kim Kardashian is

4:19

cutting our grass and has launched

4:21

a podcast. So off,

4:23

Kimberly. I think we'll be breaking

4:25

the Internet by taking photos of

4:27

our bottoms and our jeans pulled out

4:30

because two can play at that game as Kardashian.

4:32

Her side hustle is trying to

4:35

Yeah. People out of prison. Wrongly. And I

4:37

think she's starting to become a lawyer.

4:39

Her father was very famously on the

4:41

defense team for OJ Simpson.

4:44

She's done this true crime podcast with

4:46

Spotify. It's called the system. And the

4:48

first season, which she just

4:50

narrates, like, let's be honest. So she's

4:52

just you know, it's fine. But

4:54

she just frees it. It's not your big fan.

4:56

It's not as hard as what we do,

4:58

which is just And she's just so

5:00

far. She's not working as hard as we

5:02

are. Which is give our opinions that

5:04

nobody asked for. So here's a little bit

5:06

of her podcast. Hi. I'm

5:08

Kim Kardashian. You might have seen

5:10

that recently I've gotten really involved in

5:12

wrongful conviction and rehabilitation work.

5:15

And there's one case in particular that I can't

5:17

stop thinking about. I'm Kim

5:19

Kardashian, and this is the system.

5:21

Kim Kardashian used to get dragged a lot for her

5:23

voice and for the Kardashian vocal

5:26

Freight, which was when you talk, a

5:28

little bit like that. That's called

5:30

vocal Freight. And yes, there's a lot of

5:32

conjecture about women's voices She's just

5:34

such rubbish, but she's clearly

5:36

not frying her vocals

5:37

anymore. You could hear the her pulse

5:40

at tones. She sounds wonderful. Yeah.

5:42

anyway, it's about more than that. It's about Kevin

5:44

Keith. You

5:45

listen to it if you want to? I don't know.

5:48

But I just love the weirdness of the

5:50

world we live in now, where Kim Kardashian gets

5:52

people out of jail and makes podcasts about it.

5:54

Like, who saw that coming? Me will be listening to that

5:56

one right after the next episode of archetypes.

5:59

Oh. That's not coming out. a while because

6:01

of respect. Okay. Quite the best podcast

6:03

in my burn

6:04

book. Mark your calendars for

6:06

the first Monday in May. the

6:08

twenty twenty three met gala theme

6:10

has been revealed. A

6:11

couple of stories within the fashion world have

6:13

caught my eye recently, and I wanna unpack

6:15

them with you. Firstly Kim

6:19

Kardashian has collaborated with Dolce

6:21

and Gabbana. You might have seen Milan Fashion

6:24

Week, lots of things going on there,

6:26

lots of beautiful people in Italy

6:28

wearing clothes that we'll never be able to

6:30

buy. And Kim did this

6:32

collaboration that in hired Dolce and

6:34

Gabbana's springsummer offering

6:36

at Milan Fashion Week. We'll

6:38

talk about that shortly and why

6:40

that's problematic, but another

6:42

story that made headlines within

6:44

the fashion world is that the twenty twenty three

6:46

met gala theme has been an out

6:48

the upcoming theme will be

6:50

celebrating the work of Karl Lagerfeld.

6:52

Okay. So what is the Met Gala? Well, the

6:55

Met Gala or Met Ball, it's the Fashion

6:57

Olympics. It's an annual fundraising

6:59

gala held for the Metropolitan Museum.

7:02

And it always has a theme. Yeah. It always has

7:04

a theme in New York. Tickets cost about

7:06

sixty billion dollars happens in May.

7:08

Previous themes have included gilded glamour,

7:10

camp, heavenly bodies. Next

7:12

to his theme, Karl Lagerfeld. Who

7:14

is Karl Lagerfeld? Karl Lagerfeld

7:17

was the creative director of Chanel Fendi,

7:19

his own very successful fashion label,

7:22

Karl died in twenty nineteen aged

7:24

eighty five. So the Met Galith

7:26

Ball, the Night, will coincide with an exhibition

7:28

at the Met. all about Karl

7:30

Lagerfeld's legacy. It will

7:32

have pieces that he designed, original

7:35

sketches. You know him as guy with the white

7:37

hair and the big sunglasses. Hopefully, married a

7:39

fan. Yeah. One of the most famous, like,

7:41

fashion stereo type

7:43

dudes. Like, if you think fashion designer,

7:45

you think him. Yes. during

7:47

Karl's life. He was the

7:49

subject of criticism for

7:52

a few problematic views, largely

7:54

his fat phobic stance.

7:56

particularly surrounding women's bodies. So he's on

7:58

the record several times explicitly

8:01

saying unkind things about

8:03

women's bodies. No one wants to

8:05

see round women. He once said when a

8:07

French magazine announced it was going to

8:09

use ordinary realistic women

8:11

over models back in two thousand and nine.

8:14

He had a murky history with sexual assault, sent

8:16

flowers to an accused rapist. He

8:18

defended stylist Karl Templer

8:21

after he was accused of sexual assault. And

8:23

he said, If you don't want your pants pulled

8:25

about, don't become a model. Join an nunnery.

8:28

He also said he was fed up with the Me Too

8:30

movement and he had Claudia

8:32

shipper

8:32

appear in blackface and yellowface

8:34

in two thousand and eight. He

8:36

called

8:36

Muslims the worst enemies of Jewish people

8:38

in twenty seventeen, while criticizing the

8:41

acceptance of refugees in France. Can

8:43

we talk about that for a second? Yeah. because I'm

8:45

gonna give an unpopular and

8:47

surprising opinion to myself,

8:49

which is If he was

8:51

being given like the

8:53

Nobel Peace Prize, fair things

8:56

to bring up and fair reasons for

8:58

disqualification, But it's about

9:00

fashion. It's about a fashion theme, and

9:02

I don't think anyone could

9:04

argue that Karl Lagerfeld has had

9:06

an enormous influence. on

9:08

fashion over a long period of time.

9:10

Right? Yep. So the met

9:12

gala is not a

9:14

community service It's not a social

9:16

justice movement. It is a museum, the

9:18

Metropolitan Museum of Modern

9:20

at the whatever it's called.

9:23

because she institutes something something Gosh.

9:25

I'm really troubled by this idea

9:27

of you have to be

9:29

everything to everyone all the time. Like, you can be

9:31

really good at fashion but not

9:33

be a very nice person or have views

9:35

that people disagree with. And I

9:37

disagree with all of those views. Let me be

9:39

clear. Yeah. But Like,

9:41

two

9:41

things can be true. I

9:43

just don't believe that we would

9:45

accept this behavior from

9:47

other people in the public eye be

9:49

that celebrities actors, influencers,

9:52

our colleagues, our friends each other.

9:54

So what I'm confused about or

9:56

concerned about is that there seems to be this

9:58

safe space in the

9:59

fashion industry reserved for

10:02

endorsing these toxic legacies

10:04

just quickly on Dolce and Gabbana.

10:07

Oh my god. I mean, who haven't they

10:09

offended in the last ten years?

10:11

They have had homophobic statements,

10:14

racist statements. They've shamed parents

10:16

who've conceived through IVF or have

10:18

children carried by surrogates. Look,

10:20

when you're buying a piece of clothing

10:22

or wearing a piece of clothing. Yes, you get to

10:24

choose where your money goes. Right? We've talked about

10:26

this on the show before and there's a brand

10:28

of lingerie that I absolutely love.

10:31

I learned that the owners of that

10:33

brand have really troubling

10:35

disturbing views, anti vaccine

10:37

use and and stuff. And I've

10:39

chosen

10:40

not to put my money there anymore.

10:42

Right? Mhmm. But

10:43

every time I wear those bras, am

10:45

I endorsing the views of the people who own

10:47

the company because that's very problematic? I

10:49

the thing that made me roll my

10:52

eyes about this, about everybody getting

10:54

upset about Karl Lagerfeld. And to be honest,

10:56

and this is a terrible thing to admit, I forgot he

10:58

was dead. now that I've remembered

11:00

that he's dead. Same. I'm even more

11:02

surprised about why everybody is because this season belly

11:04

will not move on. But I've got this is

11:06

what I'm about to say. Let's not pretend

11:08

that the fashion industry

11:11

isn't deeply problematic at every

11:13

single level. Mhmm. What Karl

11:15

Lagerfeld was at actually guilty of when he

11:17

made those fat phobic comments. And he said worse

11:19

things than round women. He talked very

11:21

openly about, I don't want fat people to sit

11:23

on the couch eating chips in their track suits

11:25

wearing my clothes. That's basically what he said. I'm

11:27

paraphrasing. Sorry, Karl. But he

11:29

basically set out loud. what the

11:31

fashion industry has always thought.

11:33

I'm talking about high fashion because

11:35

what was really interesting in watching

11:37

Paris fashion week this weekend

11:40

and I didn't go and find

11:42

it. Those images of Bella

11:44

had did having her dress spray painted on

11:46

her on a catwalk. invaded my

11:48

phone on Saturday morning, and then it's all

11:50

I saw for a weekend. And everybody's going,

11:52

oh my god. Perfection. What

11:55

a fashion moment. isn't this

11:57

amazing? Like, no. This is just a

11:59

celebration of a beautiful body. Why isn't

12:01

it getting sprayed? Why can't people just

12:03

wear clothes? Haines is not

12:05

clothes. But high fashion

12:07

people have always worshiped

12:09

at the altar of skinny, skinny, skinny,

12:11

skinny. And so interestingly, all

12:13

the yeah and white, And the commentary around

12:16

Paris Fashion Week, a lot of it has pointed out that

12:18

that European high fashion movement is

12:20

refusing to move. Right? New

12:22

York Fashion Week. They're more in love with,

12:24

you know, real women as models.

12:26

There's much more diversity. I think there was

12:28

only one fashion show on The

12:30

Catwalk in Paris that had actual diversity. The

12:32

rest of it was just back to the old it's like they

12:34

went -- Yeah. -- we ticked that box for a bit. Now

12:36

let's get back to the proper fashion. That's the proper

12:38

fashion. But holy cow. Anowind tour and that

12:40

whole world is all about this. So I

12:42

am surprised. It's not good

12:44

enough to just say of the

12:46

fashion industry is problematic, and

12:48

therefore, let's not waste our time being

12:50

concerned with this. The met

12:52

gala is an enormous event. Last

12:54

Met Gala garnered seven hundred

12:56

million dollars US in media

12:58

impact value. Yep. That refers

13:00

to all of the dollar values of

13:02

every post shared, every article written about

13:04

it, every news report, you know,

13:06

it's an enormous night with

13:08

enormous influence and women will

13:10

attend that met gala honoring the

13:12

legacy of a toxic

13:14

person and what is every single woman on that red

13:16

carpet going to be? They can a

13:18

conventional size or or, you know, a size size. You

13:20

can choose whether to go or not. Anna

13:22

Winter is allowed to make the met Gala about

13:24

whatever she wants to make the met Gala about.

13:26

Let's not pretend that

13:28

fashion, as Mia said, is a social

13:30

justice movement. And that it doesn't have to be

13:32

social justice movement to reflect

13:34

the population. You don't have to

13:36

go. And the celebrities don't have to

13:38

go. And you don't know what? That's it. I'm not

13:40

gonna go to the Met Galen album. And you don't

13:42

have to look at the pitches on Instagram and you

13:44

don't have to support it. Like, Honestly,

13:46

we behave sometimes like we have no

13:48

choice. We have choice just like Mia

13:50

can choose not to buy those undies

13:52

anymore. If you're particularly bothered by Karl

13:55

Lagerfeld, and he did express abhorrent views, but

13:57

let's remember he is dead. If you're

13:59

particularly troubled by him, don't

14:01

go But there's a certain email. There's

14:03

a and now back. It is so funny that

14:05

fat high fashion has always been about

14:07

the one percent. No. There's an

14:10

influence here in fashion that

14:12

trickles down into our lives that we

14:14

don't necessarily have a choice over,

14:16

referring to, of course, that famous scene in the Devil

14:18

West Prada where Andy doesn't care

14:20

about some blue, and then she gets red

14:22

fulfilled about how well this is gonna trickle down

14:24

into the high streets and it will end up in a sale,

14:26

being in Hochnem where you'll buy it.

14:27

You go to your closet.

14:30

and you select, I don't know, that

14:32

lumpy blue sweater for instance, because

14:34

you're trying to tell the world that you

14:36

take yourself

14:37

too seriously care about what you put on

14:38

your back, but What you don't know is

14:41

that that sweater is not just blue.

14:43

It's not turquoise.

14:45

It's not lapis. It's actually cerulean.

14:47

That blue represents millions of

14:49

dollars in countless jobs. So

14:52

Dolce and Gabbana, the Met

14:54

Gala, Karl Lagerfeld, We

14:56

may know that these, like, high fashion

14:58

houses and events and moments are very,

15:00

very far removed from our world, but

15:02

ultimately, They are tastemaker

15:04

moments. They said the agenda. Exactly.

15:06

So choose to invest in the ones

15:08

that are making change. Savage

15:10

fenty, blah blah brand, like

15:12

the New York Fashion Week stuff that is using

15:15

diversity, real people like female

15:17

fashion designers who are going forward,

15:19

like who gives us stuff about what Anna

15:21

Wynn tour thinks we should be wearing

15:23

like, I'm not for a second defending

15:25

Karl Lagerfeld. I'm just saying, tell

15:27

these dinosaurs that they're dinosaurs by

15:29

just moving on instead of going like,

15:32

I can't believe we're celebrating

15:34

this guy. just show them how relevant they are.

15:36

And if celebrities really care about it

15:38

enough to binge about it on social media,

15:40

then don't go to the Met Gala this year. I'm

15:42

Kim Kardashian, and this

15:44

is Oh, to me. Out loud.

15:46

So this is an actual text

15:48

that I sent a friend this week.

15:51

nuclear war, I just

15:53

can't. Oh my god. Yeah.

15:55

A memoir by your friend. Yes.

15:58

that's kind of where we're at.

16:00

And in case you're wondering, in case you

16:02

missed it, there's been a little bit of

16:04

talk because putin gave

16:06

a very unhinged speech,

16:09

you know. I may have remote that

16:11

one, Mia. I may have I may have really

16:13

been missing out of missing out a North Korea

16:15

fire missile over Japan. Yes.

16:17

Look, Putin's talking a big

16:19

game. Let's

16:19

see how that pans out. But

16:22

My gosh. I'm not coming on my

16:23

diary series. Nuclear war, I just

16:26

can't text. Is

16:28

endemic of something larger,

16:31

a bit of a I always call it social

16:33

movement, but a social condition that

16:35

is being called by one psychotherapist,

16:39

hope fatigue. an article in

16:41

the Washington Post this week written by

16:43

a psychotherapist based in New

16:45

York called Leslie Olderman.

16:47

Who writes? One of my patients showed up last

16:49

week looking tired. She'd always been ambitious

16:51

and concerned about injustice. During

16:53

this session, she sied when talking about a

16:55

meeting where her colleagues complained about

16:57

unfair treatment She said, I don't know

16:59

why they bother getting upset when it feels like

17:01

nothing matters. I was concerned

17:03

by her disengagement, but then a colleague sounded

17:05

similarly worn down. She

17:07

confided to me, I haven't followed the

17:09

war in Ukraine at all. I simply

17:11

don't have the bandwidth. And she goes

17:13

on to say that a lot of her patients experiencing

17:15

this deficit of optimism and are feeling

17:17

really overwhelmed about important

17:19

issues that they feel are beyond their

17:22

control. And of course, it all kind

17:24

of

17:24

started, well, I would argue that it started with Donald Trump

17:26

probably, for me, in

17:29

twenty sixteen,

17:30

And then with COVID in twenty

17:32

twenty, people who've been always

17:34

concerned about national and world events and

17:36

who might have been

17:39

visibly frightened during the pandemic, now

17:42

just seem exhausted. And I would

17:44

say that certainly applies to

17:46

me. And Leslie Oldman writes, the murder

17:48

of George Floyd was horrific, and mass

17:50

shootings are increasingly common. This is in the

17:52

US. Now it feels like we are all

17:54

in a relentless game of whack a mole,

17:56

but in this case the rodents are

17:58

existential threats. And I just

18:00

thought that is so brilliant

18:02

because it's very different from being

18:04

overwhelmed by crisis in your

18:06

own life. You know? Like, we've all gone through

18:08

phases where you might have

18:10

healthy shoes and then something else happens and then you

18:12

have a bad day at work and then

18:14

you lose your car keys and these are all

18:17

upsetting things, but

18:19

the things within your

18:21

frame of influence in most

18:23

cases. But things like the war

18:25

in Ukraine, the uprising

18:27

of women in Iran,

18:29

Hooten, what North Korea are doing?

18:31

COVID, climate change. How

18:33

do you keep feeling anxious for

18:35

something that you can honestly have

18:37

no impact on? hole? Help me.

18:40

Help a sister out with my hope

18:42

fatigue. I can't help

18:44

you out because I definitely have

18:47

hope fatigue. And when we talked about this in the

18:49

context of that relief of missing out,

18:51

we touched on the fact that it's an enormous privilege

18:53

to be able to turn away from the news and

18:55

and obviously that and that

18:57

we've talked about how there are some things you feel you have to bear

18:59

witness to because they're so

19:02

awful. I think we used to think,

19:04

well, things are gonna get better. you know,

19:06

whatever's going on right now, the news will

19:08

turn soon and something good will happen.

19:10

And it just feels like it's not I'm

19:12

gonna interrupt you and say something

19:14

that's unexpected, which is I

19:16

had hoped fatigue at the queen's funeral.

19:18

For reasons not related to the death of

19:21

the queen, but because I was looking at all of

19:23

those people, not a single

19:25

mask in sight. And I

19:27

suddenly thought Oh, we never thought we

19:29

would get here. Like, all of those people,

19:31

world leaders Biden, like, old

19:33

people, in a closed space and

19:35

where's mister Abbie for the Queen's general?

19:38

nobody was

19:38

wearing masks. I felt hopeful. I

19:41

did.

19:41

I don't know how to walk a line between

19:44

looking after yourself, but

19:46

staying engaged. Like, it doesn't feel I

19:48

mean, obviously, we work in media

19:50

and in news, but it doesn't feel

19:52

like an option or maybe it's

19:54

just a very privileged to go.

19:56

No. I'm I'm switching off completely

19:59

from

19:59

that because then you're disconnected from the world

20:02

around you, but I know there has

20:04

to be a middle ground. I used to

20:06

work in news, in

20:08

radio journalism, and I

20:10

worked all through the Black

20:12

Summer bushfires. and, you know, long

20:14

days, bulletins every half hour.

20:16

And it was really scary, and it

20:18

was the first time that I had ever

20:20

really felt this sort

20:22

of fatigue or

20:24

anxiety where I would just go home

20:26

and I would just get in bed and it

20:28

wasn't happening to me. My family was safe.

20:30

My home was safe. But something

20:32

about the relentlessness of

20:34

the way you become this

20:37

associated from a death count

20:39

or a loss of animals or a loss

20:41

of environment. It just that was a

20:43

real wake up call for me that I didn't

20:45

wanna be in that world in such an intensive

20:47

way. There has to be a way to straddle

20:49

both sides. Leslie Olderman

20:51

in this piece. as a psychotherapist cheat

20:54

says about how when

20:56

they studied people who after remember

20:58

the Boston Marathon bombings -- Yes. --

21:00

a few years ago, People who

21:03

were very immersed in that news

21:05

cycle and who watched huge amounts of

21:07

coverage showed levels of

21:09

stress and distress higher than

21:11

people who are actually there. That is the

21:14

most fascinating thing -- Yeah. -- things. Right?

21:16

And they offer some practical advice

21:19

about this in saying that for and and

21:21

obviously, as you've said, if you

21:23

work in the media, this isn't an option but vast majority

21:25

of people. It is check the news once a

21:27

day. Just once a day. Yep. Just

21:29

pick when it is for you, whether it's the morning or the

21:31

evening or the afternoon, and just go checking

21:33

in. Okay. Know what's happening now and then

21:35

move away. That would have been

21:37

unthinkable for me outside of my

21:39

professional circumstances a few years

21:41

ago, but now that idea feels

21:43

like an aspiration that I would

21:45

actually love. because I've always

21:47

thought don't personalize exist

21:49

like things that are happening in other places. As in

21:51

it would be ridiculous of me

21:53

to be in tears about what's happening in

21:56

Ukraine because it's the people in

21:58

Ukraine who that's really affecting and the rest of

22:00

us should be supporting them however we

22:02

can. But lately, I feel this sort of

22:05

relentless, when is the good news gonna

22:07

start happening? And I'm feeling it

22:09

a lot with the weather. Right? Which I

22:11

know sounds kind of ridiculous, but it's not

22:13

because it is connected to the

22:15

climate crisis. mental health

22:17

seasonal disorder. But in

22:19

terms of everybody who lives

22:21

on these coast of Australia keeps getting told,

22:23

this summer is gonna be another Lanenia.

22:25

We're not gonna get a summer again. It's gonna be

22:27

flooding. It's gonna be anxiety around

22:29

heavy rainfall all the time. It's gonna that's

22:31

what and the thought of that

22:33

makes me want to weep. And not

22:36

because I'm necessarily directly

22:38

affected, although the area I live in does flood

22:40

in, but I'm not in danger.

22:42

But just that idea of like, oh, we

22:44

don't have that to look forward to you

22:46

know, we don't have someone to look forward to. We don't have happy things

22:48

to look forward to. I find really hard. And in

22:51

the middle of this year, I got

22:53

a really good bit. because after being

22:55

separated from family for all of the

22:57

pandemic, I got to see them. I got to go

22:59

on a holiday that I went on on my own to

23:01

see people hadn't seen for

23:03

four years. It was bloody brilliant. It went well.

23:05

Nothing went wrong. I didn't catch

23:07

COVID. You know, the planes were

23:09

delayed. I came back, book came out,

23:11

went really well. Happy days.

23:13

And then our dog died. I know.

23:15

Then our dog died. It's got nothing to do

23:17

with anything. It's the hope that kills you today.

23:19

That kills you right. And the

23:21

first thing I thought was -- Things were

23:23

going too well. -- things were

23:26

going too well. That's all around. We

23:28

know the central dread. have

23:30

we learned nothing over the past few

23:32

years than that things aren't allowed to

23:34

go well, and that's probably maybe

23:36

hope fatigue. And so now I'm just waiting all the

23:38

time for the shoe to drop. which is just a tiny

23:40

personal example of how I think

23:42

everybody's feeling about the world. So

23:44

obviously, the death of my dog is not a

23:46

crisis for the world, but it's the

23:48

idea that, oh, maybe the worst of the

23:50

pandemic is over. I know that for people

23:52

who are immune compromised still

23:54

incredibly anxious about it. But for many of us, as you've said about

23:56

the Queen's funeral, Mia, we seem to be

23:59

getting back to something like normal. We can

24:01

travel again. People are coming back to work.

24:03

Everything's good. But I think we're thinking, well

24:05

now then, it's flooding and it's

24:07

nuclear war and it's massively increasing

24:09

cost of living and it's like

24:12

can we hope for? So now that Holly

24:14

has paralyzed us all with doom I know I'm

24:16

sorry. There's actually some steps in this

24:18

article to help refocus

24:20

your anxiety. So I think it's important to know, Les

24:22

Yolderman says that

24:24

psychologists don't necessarily know

24:26

how to fix this and they don't

24:28

have the key to unlock it all, but that's

24:30

validating, I think, even though not

24:32

particularly helpful, come on guys, put your heads

24:34

together. So as Billy mentioned, take a

24:36

break from the

24:36

news, Take care of yourself. So, you know,

24:38

you can't be in good fighting shape to cope with

24:40

current turbulence

24:41

if you're not looking after yourself.

24:43

Focus on the present So get in the

24:45

habit of anchoring yourself in the here and

24:47

now fretting about the future is not

24:50

helpful. Okay. Well, telling me that it's not helpful. I

24:52

feel that the main advice here

24:54

is focus on what you can control and not what you can't. Right. That's really

24:57

exercises. Think about your

24:59

victories. Remind yourself of what's working well in your

25:01

own life. So yes, holy, tragedy

25:03

did before your family, but also your book

25:05

is very good and being received very well.

25:07

Thank you, ma'am. Thank you. Be

25:09

your own therapist. It's cheaper. Or you

25:11

could be my therapist. That's fine.

25:13

Thanks. It also suggests volunteering

25:15

joining forces with a friend. Yeah. Something really

25:17

interesting that I heard an interview on a

25:19

podcast recently with a guy called David Platt

25:21

who used to be the boss at slate. His new

25:24

venture is all about local news because he

25:26

says the future is local. He says, really, people

25:28

have to remember that what they

25:30

can affect the local school board, whether

25:32

or not the trains are running like who's, you

25:34

know, being nice to your neighbors, whatever, is

25:36

actually the thing that will make the difference

25:38

in your life not who wins the

25:40

election or whether I mean, that's not true if your

25:42

life is being invaded by Vladimir Putin.

25:44

But for many of us, it is true

25:46

that if you focus on the local and

25:48

maybe that's about mental. Think

25:50

about what you can do rather than

25:52

what you can't.

25:58

If

25:59

you wanna make out loud, part of your

26:02

routine five days a week, we

26:04

release segments on Tuesday's and

26:06

Thursdays just for Mamma Mia

26:08

subscribers. To get full access, follow the

26:10

link in the show notes and a big thank

26:12

you to all our current

26:13

subscribers.

26:15

eat. What's one rule your kids

26:17

consistently ignore? Don't

26:19

play football in the house. What's the greatest thing you've

26:22

learned from your kids? How to

26:24

play football in the house and how to love

26:26

unconditionally. Yeah. We need to talk

26:28

well Jesse, isn't he? Mhmm. We've got a

26:30

wedding in the family coming up. We do. We

26:32

do. Yeah. Loud family. Your

26:34

actual family. But for the rest of us -- Yeah. --

26:36

the Loud family -- Yep. --

26:38

Jesse's marrying my son in for those who are

26:40

new here -- Yep. -- and we need for

26:42

the question. The Internet, I'm sure

26:44

can assist. Specifically,

26:47

we need to talk about Victoria Beckham

26:49

and Nicola Pelts. I'm

26:51

seeing Victoria because This

26:53

might be the most famous

26:56

and infamous mother-in-law, daughter-in-law,

26:58

spouse of the moment. If,

27:00

like me, you've been trying to turn away

27:02

from some tabloid across it, but this

27:04

is irresistible, this one. I'll

27:06

give you a little bit of context.

27:09

Nicola Pelt is from a very

27:11

fancy, very rich family, even fancier

27:13

and richer than the Bectons, Americans.

27:15

And Nicola has married Brooklyn, who

27:17

is the oldest of the Bectons' children, which

27:19

makes me feel a million

27:21

because I remember his christening. He's very young.

27:23

Were you there? What did you wear? Actually,

27:27

well, Victoria, second. It was in Hello Magazine

27:29

mirror. I might as well have been there. Anyway,

27:31

They're early twenties, they're hot young

27:33

things. Right? Famously, there seems

27:35

to have been a major falling out between

27:38

Victoria and Nicola that started with

27:40

a wedding dress. So I think there

27:42

might be a few teachable moments here for

27:44

Mia. Mia infamously

27:46

cares about clothes, Jesse

27:48

infamously doesn't. do

27:49

not be tempted to step in and

27:51

try and influence. You know, how you're

27:53

always giving Jesse things to wear -- Yeah. -- because

27:55

this could happen. Right? Luckily,

27:58

I've lost my wedding dress, so I don't I

28:00

can't give her back to wear. How does one lose

28:02

the whole wedding from? Me is always

28:04

going. wear this and Jesse's always going, I'm

28:06

not a dog for you to dress. Anyway,

28:09

Victoria Beckham, Vicky, as we call

28:11

her Vicky, is a

28:13

very famous fashion designer, and her fashion

28:16

designer house at Telier. I think we call

28:18

them main wedding dresses. but

28:20

Nicola didn't wear one of hers. She wore

28:23

custom made Valentino, and

28:25

that's apparently where this all started.

28:28

Nicholas says that she wanted Vicky to make

28:30

the dress. She gave quotes to

28:32

Grazier US saying, I wanted

28:34

Vicky to make my dress. but Vicki said her

28:36

auntie was too busy, which I find hard

28:38

to believe. So we turned to

28:40

Valentino who clearly have nothing to

28:42

do. the most famous couture

28:44

house in the world sitting around the

28:46

this in January. You

28:47

know, it's your little hot pink things.

28:48

Yeah. This is where it started. they fell

28:50

out over the wedding dress. She didn't wear Victoria Beckham,

28:53

she wore Valentino. Then the piece

28:55

was worse than this actually. And I'm gonna

28:57

speak up the posh now because this

29:00

interview, which

29:00

was a shocker to give, like and

29:02

we'll get to that in a second. But

29:04

it makes you see what a bradzeler

29:06

she was.

29:07

She said, Victoria offered

29:09

to Mac address, we had a meeting. And then

29:11

for a couple of days, she didn't

29:13

get back to me -- Yeah. --

29:15

or my mother. And so when we didn't hear

29:17

from her in a couple of

29:20

days, we went elsewhere. And I'm

29:22

like, oh, come on. So

29:25

it's not like Victoria said, we are

29:27

too busy. I know. She just

29:29

did not say. Well, I think then she

29:31

went to Pega, then went on to say

29:33

and so it became clear that they couldn't do it and

29:35

that couldn't happen. So we went to

29:38

Valentina.

29:38

Then apparently at the reception,

29:40

there was too much praise for

29:43

Vicki. Too

29:43

much praise for post I can't. Apparently, Mark Anthony gave

29:45

a speech. Why? I don't know. Kayla's x?

29:48

Yep. But Kayla's x is a good mate with

29:50

the beckons. Mark Anthony gave a speech

29:52

where he just praised the

29:54

mother-in-law a lot. This is another thing you need to watch

29:56

out for. No speeches need to be about you at that

29:58

wedding, including you on one. And

30:00

allegedly, Nicola and her sisters

30:02

stormed out in tears of their own response. Oh,

30:04

shit. No. I don't believe that.

30:06

Absolutely. And since

30:08

then, Things have been faster crying. Can

30:10

everyone get a clue? You can't storm in

30:12

a Valentino gown. Maybe it was a

30:15

shuffle. It was a waddle. So it's too

30:17

tight. There's too much sloth. Anyway, the

30:19

receipts have been collected by the internet that

30:21

saw the pre wedding. Victoria

30:23

had liked more than twenty five of

30:26

Nicola's posts. and Nicola had liked

30:28

this is the kind of shit. The tabloid journalists

30:30

have to do these days is count the likes on

30:32

celebrity posts. Mhmm. But since

30:35

liking of each other's posts. I

30:37

doubt they even manage their own social

30:39

media. Don't they have people

30:41

doing that and liking things and

30:43

following others? This FEWED,

30:45

as we're calling, has now been going on

30:47

for months since the wedding in April.

30:49

The reason it's back in the news

30:51

is that Victoria's Fancy Paris Fashion

30:53

Week show, which is the first time Victoria

30:55

has shown in Paris. Nicole said

30:57

they hadn't been given enough notice to get there, but they

30:59

did get there and now there have been of

31:01

them all together and everyone's gonna But this mother-in-law, daughter-in-law

31:05

relationship is going to be

31:07

scrutinized for all of time.

31:10

just as yours is with Jesse Mia at a

31:12

slightly lower level of celebrity, just a slightly

31:14

lower level of little bit. And

31:16

I wanna know what your feels

31:18

are. what's interesting is whether this

31:20

is true or not. The stories that then played out

31:22

with it David Beckham, obviously, posh

31:24

was very upset about this.

31:27

David Beckham reached out to Brooklyn and said,

31:29

son, we don't do things in our family

31:31

that way, which is true. Like,

31:33

trashing your mother-in-law to the press,

31:35

like, that wasn't cool. And he she also said

31:37

something really hurtful about David Beckham.

31:39

She said, you know, Brooklyn I love the relationship that

31:41

he has with my dad. My dad's his mentor.

31:43

I love watching how much he learns from

31:45

my dad, which I thought was

31:48

emasculating of both Brooklyn, her

31:50

husband, and David back in her

31:52

father-in-law. So anyway, I'm She's

31:54

clear about miss' perspective. She

31:56

did, but I think that David and Lisa

31:58

are tied to anyway. So what's been

32:00

interesting is to watch how it's played

32:02

out. So there was clearly just quiet

32:04

behind the scenes. How could there not

32:06

be? So there was this very staged

32:09

the equivalent of a Pat Walk when Brookline and Nicola

32:11

came to Victoria's show.

32:14

Interestingly, there was video

32:16

and Nicola had her back turned

32:18

to Victoria. So it's like she was there under

32:20

suffering.

32:20

She's really doing a big flex. Right?

32:22

And I think that Why is she doing

32:24

I don't understand this power dynamic. I think she's

32:26

really insecure. I think she's really

32:28

trying to weigh on the tree of

32:31

Brooklyn and say, he's

32:33

mine. I'm his main bitch now.

32:35

And I really feel

32:37

For Victoria So let us know

32:39

if Victoria Beckham is necessarily

32:42

with a proven track record of

32:44

being an extremely warm person.

32:46

I mean, I know that unless she is There

32:48

she is. Everyone I know

32:50

who's ever met Victoria Beckham says

32:53

that she is outline. Yeah. But in

32:55

terms of the way that she presents

32:57

herself, there's a very curated

33:00

image in the media in

33:02

terms of

33:02

coldness, not smiling. You

33:04

know, everyone always, like, makes a big deal

33:06

if they ever see her smile on camera, but

33:09

she doesn't like her smile. That doesn't mean

33:11

she's a bitch. I think there's a lot to

33:14

this. My point is that obviously

33:16

the trope of mother-in-law versus daughter-in-law

33:18

is Taylor's oldest time.

33:20

we love quote unquote cat five.

33:22

I hate it. I absolutely hate

33:25

it. And I don't understand it. Why? It's just why I

33:27

need you to explain it to me a bit, Mia, because

33:29

you're close to it than me. But what I was

33:31

trying to say is I think that because Victoria

33:33

Beckham is so mysterious to

33:35

so many of us despite, you know,

33:37

rumors that she's lovely person, whatever, she's

33:39

mysterious. we don't know a lot about her. doesn't talk a lot.

33:41

I think that we're just desperate to fabricate

33:43

a story here because we don't know. I don't know. But

33:45

I think there's clearly stuff going on because

33:48

According to why a woman This is what I've never

33:50

understood. Is why

33:52

these two women?

33:53

I don't mean necessarily these specific

33:55

two women. I mean, these two

33:57

characteristics in any story. The mother-in-law and

33:59

the daughter-in-law are

33:59

adversaries. Why? They both love

34:02

the same person. They're playing very

34:04

different roles in his life. Why?

34:06

should you feel adversarial to either the person who gave birth

34:08

to your partner? It's your son's

34:10

loving a daughter. I don't need to know that.

34:12

Because you yeah. Because you both

34:15

love him. He's in love with your life. In

34:17

a different way, but I think this

34:19

is why you have to be really careful.

34:21

As a mother-in-law,

34:24

you have to be really sensitive. And I think

34:26

also as a

34:26

daughter-in-law, and I've been in both situations

34:30

now, and with all

34:31

seriousness, I'm very careful

34:34

and very aware

34:36

that it's very important

34:38

that your son moves away

34:42

from you as being the main woman

34:44

in their life to

34:46

whoever their partner is.

34:48

And

34:49

yes, it can. feel

34:50

because in some ways when you have a son, you feel like created the

34:53

perfect man. Like, you love him

34:55

in the most unconditional way and

34:57

the most uncomfortable catered

35:00

way. And then it can feel

35:03

really sad as he grows up

35:05

and away from you. And

35:08

then when someone comes in and

35:10

he loves them, I remember when Luka was a

35:12

baby holding him in my arms and

35:14

crying with those early first or

35:16

few week hormones and saying, one day

35:18

he's gonna love a woman more than he

35:20

loves me. And I my heart was

35:22

broken. I have never thought that, you know, but

35:24

how that does. And

35:26

it's beautiful, and I think because a lot of people ask me

35:28

about this. I think it's because I love Jesse, and I think

35:31

she's fucking awesome. If I didn't, I imagine that would

35:33

be really hard. Or if she didn't like me, like,

35:36

she's a partner to live up

35:38

to the expectation of, you know,

35:40

if in your eyes, this is the perfect

35:42

man, well then he deserves nothing less than the

35:44

perfect man. And I totally understand the perfect man.

35:46

I totally understand and that. And I've got

35:48

plenty of friends and examples of this in my life where

35:50

this relationship is antagonistic

35:52

because they don't get along. Yes. But

35:54

I think the reason that I

35:56

don't under stand it. Is they're young? So they literally are moving

35:58

from

35:58

mom to daughter,

35:59

whereas, like, my partner, for example, he

36:02

was, like, forty. What I meant?

36:04

Like, it didn't belong to his

36:06

mom. I don't see it like that. I don't see it

36:08

like you're moving from one house to another

36:10

because there's been a massive gap

36:12

in between let you pull away from your

36:14

parents for a million reasons not because of love.

36:16

I have a recommendation

36:18

before we go that is about food

36:20

and because it's about booking me, I

36:23

won't be into it, but people will be out loud. gonna love this shit.

36:25

Gotta eat. We've just moved house. Right?

36:27

The world is in chaos. And

36:30

where I live, which is not in the city, you can't just

36:32

Uber Eats. There is no delivery. Right? There's no

36:34

such thing. So you have to cook. There's

36:37

no choice. Hell. A friend of mine told me, I was

36:39

like, what the hell am I gonna cook Saturday night? What the hell? Said, have

36:42

you checked this site? Or so

36:44

a book? which I had heard of

36:46

because it's published by my published book. It's called

36:48

Recipe Tim Eats. Right? I

36:50

have never really looked into them, heard about it.

36:52

I know it's been a massive seller. It's been number one

36:54

in kind of the food book world, but I

36:56

hadn't really paid attention until my friends

36:58

said you've got to try and make their fried rice

37:00

because it's the easiest thing you'll ever do in your life.

37:02

And I was like, Sure.

37:04

Whatever. It is the easiest thing you'll

37:06

ever do in your life. Anytime I've ever tried to

37:08

make rice, it's been massive fail. You have to

37:10

normally make fried rice with

37:12

old rice. like, day old rice. Oh. So you cook rice, you

37:14

let it cool down, you let it dry out, and then

37:16

you use it for fried rice. You can make

37:18

this version of

37:20

fried rice, if all you

37:22

have in your house is some rice

37:24

and maybe some stock and some soy sauce

37:26

and some frozen veggies and you put it

37:28

all in a baking dish well,

37:30

baking. I like a tray. Does that guys have

37:32

to be cooked? No. This is the thing. Right? And

37:34

I'll put the link to the actual

37:36

recipe before you all get at

37:38

me, but My friend told me about it. I was like, sure sounds terrible.

37:40

Tried it amazing. You literally

37:42

get a baking dish.

37:44

You put long grain white

37:46

rice in it, a bit of stock, a bit of soy sauce,

37:48

and whatever else you've got lying around. Maybe

37:50

you've got some frozen peas and corn.

37:52

Maybe you've got a bit of bacon in the fridge, maybe

37:54

you've got whatever. Top it up, you

37:56

put it all in, you toss it in the soy sauce and

37:58

stock, and you just put it in the oven.

37:59

And then what you do is you do not

38:02

touch it Until

38:03

ten minutes before it's meant to be

38:05

ready, when you get it out and you put some foil of it

38:07

and you stick it back in, and then when you get it back

38:09

out, you fluff it up and oh my

38:11

god. It's the easiest thing I've ever made online. You need

38:13

to make this into a TikTok because it's

38:15

gonna go viral. It's gonna be the new

38:17

TikTok pastor. I thought, here's my normally

38:20

fried rice. I'm like, gotta find some

38:22

old rice, chopping up

38:24

veggies, cooking this, egg that, fried, fried,

38:26

blah, blah. You just throw a lot of shit in

38:27

the tin, put it in the oven. It

38:29

comes out amazing. recipe to eat, please. Hold on,

38:31

mate, Jella. It is called dump and bake

38:34

emergency

38:34

fried rice. Oh, that

38:36

sounds awesome. Because it's for

38:39

those times when you've got nothing in the house like

38:41

you just moved out and there's no no worries

38:44

and put

38:44

in the link in, you'll thank me for it. Sounds

38:46

cheap as well. Very cheap. Thank you for listening. Go on. And

38:48

if you're driving or you're just not around

38:50

something that you can write down,

38:54

we send out our recommendations

38:56

in the Outladders newsletter along

38:58

with all kinds of behind the scenes bits and

39:00

pieces. I think we send it on the

39:03

Saturdays, Saturday morning. Yep. with all our

39:05

records and links to everything we've recommended during the week. And if you're

39:07

looking for something else to listen to,

39:09

yesterday's subscriber episode was

39:12

all about if

39:13

you believe in the one. Oh. Do you know when

39:15

you know soulmates, etcetera? Holy Wayne

39:18

Wright. It was. I'm always interested

39:20

this in that poll when you know me know. we

39:22

discussed with Claire Murphy whether that was

39:24

true or not and we had different

39:26

opinions. I think it's true. But I think there

39:28

can be

39:30

multiple

39:30

ones. Thank you for

39:32

listening. To mom and me are out loud. This episode

39:34

is produced by Emma Gillespie, who's also

39:38

been brilliant. you for doing double duty. Thank you for having more audio production by

39:40

Leah Porges. We'll see

39:42

you tomorrow or

39:44

in orange Big

39:45

thanks to

39:48

anyone

39:49

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39:51

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