0:00

You're listening too. Mama

0:03

Mia Podcast. Mama Mia

0:05

acknowledges the traditional owners of

0:07

the land we have recorded this podcast

0:09

on. the categorical people of the

0:11

nation. We pay our respects

0:13

to their elders, past, and present, and

0:16

extend that respect to all aboriginal

0:18

and torreshed islander cultures.

0:24

Welcome

0:24

to Mababir Out loud. it's what

0:26

women are talking about on Friday, the seventh

0:28

of October. I am Holly Wainwright.

0:30

I'm Mia Friedman, and I'm Jessica Stevens,

0:32

and we have all just gotten off a plane.

0:35

from Orange where last night we did our first

0:37

live show. Yeah. Thank you

0:39

so much to everybody who came to Orange

0:41

and good news for all of the people

0:43

who come into any of the further shows, we will

0:46

be better rehearsed by then. So I'm gonna get

0:48

better. Yeah. Has just been before

0:50

started recording, giving us a little bit of fake regarding

0:52

our singing and our dance moves. That's the tension you can

0:54

hear from. Yes. Exactly. Where

0:56

do we hear all that? dance moves. Some people

0:58

have no rhythm, though. I haven't been so.

1:01

But if you are coming to the tour,

1:03

it was a lot of fun last night. So hopefully,

1:05

you're in some good time, and we will

1:08

learn to be better. Anyway, on

1:10

this show today. football and

1:12

religious freedom. Yes, we're talking about

1:14

Essendon plus gut health TikTok is

1:16

quietly recruiting women looking for

1:18

help into MLMs. games.

1:21

And our best of course, the week, which includes

1:23

engagement parties, planes,

1:25

and Allen Keys. But first,

1:28

How

1:28

can we care for people if we can't see their

1:30

pain? Introducing our plates,

1:33

a plate to recognize drivers returning

1:35

to the road,

1:35

In case you missed it, a vehicle

1:38

service and repair company called My Car

1:40

has launched a blue r plate

1:43

that you can put on your car to

1:45

identify yourself if you are a driver

1:47

who is returning to the road after

1:50

having maybe an accident

1:52

or suffering a road trauma or

1:55

after you've had a long break

1:57

from

1:57

driving, maybe, due to illness, or

1:59

due to being out of the country for a long

2:02

time. Look, it

2:04

seems to be an ad or a marketing

2:06

campaign. but we're talking about it. So

2:08

it's clearly been quite effective, a little bit

2:10

like the Veronica's saying that they were

2:12

gonna split, and we discovered that also

2:14

as marketing campaign. So It's

2:17

good that we're doing the work of capitalism here

2:19

today on the show, Jesse. But when

2:21

I first heard it, I thought, oh, that's silly. Are

2:23

we just gonna have all these different letters?

2:25

depending on whether we're a, n for

2:28

nervous drive. p

2:30

for tired or m for, I like

2:32

music when I drive. it's

2:35

not an official thing. Not

2:37

like an RMS thing. No. Let me

2:39

take up an l plate or a p plate.

2:41

It's going to do your license. You're not mandated

2:44

to use it because at first I thought it was people

2:46

who'd lost their license, had

2:48

to have it. A bit like the scar That's

2:50

how it does. I deserve a scar. Yeah. Yeah.

2:52

But what I think it's meant to do a little

2:54

bit like those people who have the baby onboard

2:56

stickers. It's meant to say to other

2:58

drivers, hey, do

3:01

you think that'll work?

3:02

I like this idea a

3:05

I would get one immediately. I am

3:07

a bit of a nervous driver because I think we

3:09

forget Every time I get in the car, I think

3:11

this is really dangerous. All it is is

3:13

one little funny

3:15

twelve of the What do you call it? Well,

3:18

we're all the staring there, Jesse. Oh, it's

3:20

gonna call it a wheeling stick. I'm

3:23

so tired. Oh,

3:25

really. I'm

3:27

not gonna drive today. So it's just

3:29

behind the wheels today. Any

3:31

letters on her plate except for

3:33

g will get off the road. And

3:36

I catch some points for The problem with

3:38

it is though, with an l plate

3:40

and a p plate. A lot of people will say

3:42

that they don't give more space or have any

3:44

more patience for people driving with

3:46

those sites on, which I think just signals that

3:48

you're a bit of a dick. That is the most shocking thing about

3:51

this story to me. Yeah. I'm like d for d d for d.

3:53

The embattled

3:55

Essendon football club is being

3:57

applauded and criticized. for

3:59

its stance on its short lived

4:02

CEO, Andrew Thorburn, and

4:04

his religious beliefs. The biggest

4:06

debate this week has been about

4:08

Andrew Thorburn, a man who was

4:10

appointed chief executive of football

4:12

club, and then just twenty four hours later

4:14

announced he would step down.

4:17

Let's start at the beginning. So

4:19

Andrew Thalburne, he is the

4:21

former Knab, National

4:23

Australia Bank, chief executive, He

4:26

was then appointed the chief executive

4:28

of Essendon football club along

4:30

with a one million dollar annual

4:32

salary. After

4:34

his appointment, reports

4:35

emerged that he belonged to a conservative

4:38

Christian church called City on the

4:40

Hill. He didn't just belong to

4:42

the church. He is a sitting

4:45

chairman. That means he's very high up.

4:47

In twenty thirteen, The City

4:49

Honor Hill Church said in an article that

4:51

God has designed sex to be enjoyed

4:53

within marriage between one man and

4:55

one woman. In twenty thirteen as

4:57

well, a church pastor, this was not him,

4:59

but in a sermon, a church pastor said

5:02

about abortion that whereas today,

5:04

we look back sadness and disgust

5:06

over concentration camps, future

5:08

generations will look back with sadness at

5:10

the legal murder of hundreds of thousands of

5:12

human beings every day through medicine and

5:14

in the name of freedom. So

5:16

this emerges and the club is clearly

5:18

like, well, this isn't a good look. So

5:20

in response, Thorburne was told he

5:22

had to choose between a role

5:24

at Essendon football club and his role as

5:26

chairman.

5:27

He chose his church. Now,

5:30

this is detention. You cannot

5:32

ask someone in a job interview what

5:34

their faith is. That is religious

5:36

discrimination. It is something we are very careful

5:38

about and has legal precedent. You could

5:40

take someone to court for religious discrimination.

5:43

We live in a non secular

5:45

society that is about the freedom to

5:47

believe what we wanna believe and not be

5:49

discriminated against on a caliber.

5:51

Holly, how do you make of all this? Right.

5:54

I am always very

5:56

wary about topics like this that

5:58

are then co opted as being some massive

6:01

thing in the culture wars, you know? Because

6:03

what Andrew Thalben has gone on to say is

6:05

that Christians can't

6:07

hold high positions in

6:09

our current culture. And I think

6:12

that is a massive overreach.

6:14

Scott Morrison managed to do it? Yes. Because

6:17

I think what this story is actually

6:19

about is a great big

6:21

ethelp on the part of Essendon

6:24

because You're right, Jesse, that

6:26

you can't in a job interview. Ask

6:28

someone about their religious beliefs and discriminate

6:30

on the basis of them. But

6:33

when you are hiring a new CEO,

6:35

which is a very, very, very

6:37

high stakes position, what

6:39

you do do is vet that person,

6:41

especially if this is quite a public facing

6:44

role which the chairman of a football club

6:46

absolutely is. It's not that he

6:48

goes to this church on a Sunday, you

6:50

know, and just gets on with his life.

6:52

He is the chairman of this church.

6:54

and that would one hundred percent

6:57

be or should be discoverable on

6:59

the vetting process. And then when you

7:02

do is you go, well, is these other positions

7:04

that this person holds? Because let's face it people

7:06

at this very high level in business and

7:08

whatever. they often hold lots of different

7:10

jobs. They'll be on a board here and they'll

7:12

be, you know, consultant to

7:14

this organization. And you have to know

7:16

what you're dealing with. Right? So if

7:18

you do the vetting process and you go, oh, he's

7:20

the chairman of a very conservative

7:22

church. Now, I don't know enough about this

7:24

church to know if it's true that they are really

7:26

that conservative. Those quotes are terrible.

7:28

But as I said, nine years ago, from nine years

7:30

ago, they may have changed their position. It could

7:32

be a much more progressive organization. But

7:35

if that is what the church position

7:37

is, it is in direct conflict

7:39

with what the AFL's position is because I

7:41

want everybody to remember that Essendon

7:43

is one football club but it's part of

7:45

the AFL. And during the marriage equality

7:47

debate in particular, the AFL

7:49

was absolutely firm in

7:51

putting its flag it put the

7:53

front of its headquarters in Melbourne

7:55

in a rainbow flag. It said we

7:57

are a yes organization. Now

7:59

people have opinions about that and say, should

8:02

we be doing that? should we be having

8:04

these social identities tied up closely

8:06

with corporate Australia, and that's another debate.

8:08

But the point is this organization does.

8:11

So if the AOL stands

8:13

very firmly. We are for marriage

8:15

equality. We are absolutely not

8:17

discriminatory in any way about people's sexuality.

8:19

Then you can't really give

8:22

a job of that status to a man who is

8:24

the chairman of a homophobic church.

8:26

So I think that we get into dangerous

8:28

territory where we extrapolate from this.

8:30

particular

8:30

example, Christians

8:33

can't do anything these days. It's not

8:35

true. You can't give a job to a man

8:37

that has a direct conflict the

8:40

values of your organization. We've been

8:42

arguing about this for days. We have -- Mhmm. -- it's

8:44

a shame because you're wrong. I do

8:47

not agree with you at all. And the

8:49

reason is, which bit

8:51

he

8:51

has come out. Don't you think that Essendon

8:53

should have known this because it's absolutely

8:56

ridiculous. I have a curious, and

8:58

indeed. Of course, they Of course, they did. And

9:00

so therefore, it's an f up on their

9:02

part because, really, it's really

9:04

unfortunate that it's been pushed to this position,

9:06

where now it is one of the many

9:08

soccer balls being kicked around in the culture

9:10

wars. And that's really Essendon's fault.

9:12

Not understanding. They should I reckon

9:14

Essendon should have doubled down. You knew he was

9:16

the chairman for the city on the hill church.

9:18

They absolutely did. If it

9:20

is religious discrimination to

9:23

not

9:23

hire someone based on their religion, I don't see

9:26

how then they start in the workplace and you give them

9:28

an ultimatum. The idea that you would tell

9:30

someone they have to choose between

9:32

their faith and their job I don't

9:34

know. That gives religious discrimination. count

9:36

them again because these are being co

9:38

opted in the culture wars, which is very convenient

9:40

for some people. He is not being

9:42

asked to choose between his faith and

9:44

his job. is being asked to being

9:46

choose as being the chairman of

9:48

a church and his job. Now if

9:50

you were being hired for a very high powered job,

9:53

Jesse, and one of your other jobs asked with You

9:55

would be asked to give it up. No one is

9:57

asking him

9:59

to relinquish his religion. Do not

10:02

believe in Jesus anymore. I know

10:04

that's enough. These two jobs

10:06

are incompatible. He did not go for a

10:08

job

10:08

with the Sydney Mardi Gras. Right?

10:11

He went for a job with a football club.

10:13

Part of the NFL. But and and I

10:15

understand that there are values, but this

10:17

also comes back to the idea that

10:19

we bring our whole selves to work every day. This man

10:21

worked at NAB. You know what NAB the

10:23

bank did? It had

10:25

pride initiatives. It hired people

10:27

that were LGBTQI. He has

10:29

an impeccable record. And there is

10:31

no proof that this man has either discriminated

10:34

against anyone based on the To

10:36

be clear on what I'm saying, I'm not suggesting

10:38

for a minute that he has. I'm

10:40

not suggesting for a minute that he was necessarily

10:42

gonna bring those beliefs to Essendon.

10:44

But the point is, he's the

10:46

chairman of a conservative church

10:48

is in direct competition. He said,

10:50

I think that his statement's really important because

10:52

he said, I love

10:54

all people. I've always promoted and

10:56

lived in an inclusive diverse, respectful,

10:58

and supportive workplace. My faith is

11:00

central to who I am. I believe

11:02

in God, it's made me a better husband, father,

11:04

and friend. As

11:05

it happens, I do sometimes disagree

11:08

with things I hear in church, and I

11:10

believe strongly in

11:10

the right of people to say them, especially

11:13

when taken in context have got

11:15

to let people believe

11:17

what they believe. I was baptized when

11:19

I was a baby. I don't

11:21

really identify as Catholic anymore, but I

11:23

was. my parents in baptized

11:25

me were not condoning everything

11:28

the church has ever done. I don't

11:30

think we understand faith, and

11:32

I think him sitting as a chairman

11:34

doesn't mean he can dones everything that they've ever

11:36

said. And even if it does, I

11:38

think we have to accept that we are

11:40

not all gonna the same way and you're gonna have someone

11:42

who doesn't believe in abortion who is

11:44

on I agree. I agree. I

11:46

agree. I agree with you about that. I

11:48

really do. That's not what we're

11:50

arguing about. See, this is what people are trying to get

11:52

us to argue about. The argument

11:54

is about whether or not he should have declared that

11:56

position whether or not Essendon should have known and

11:58

whether or not it was in conflict

11:59

with the FL values. That is what this is But if

12:02

he declares it, then that's really just

12:04

discrimination. not religious discrimination

12:06

at the level we're talking about, as I

12:08

say, he's the chairman of the

12:10

church. Mear. Sorry. We've been doing a

12:12

lot of shouting, Jotun. Well, he's

12:14

got two jobs. So

12:16

if we were hiring

12:18

a CEO for Mamma Mia,

12:19

and they

12:22

also

12:22

were the

12:24

spokesperson for

12:26

one nation. for example. That's a

12:28

political

12:28

party. That's not a fake. So what if someone sort of

12:30

worked for a synagogue? They had that? Yep.

12:33

Then I would think they don't have to tell

12:35

you that. No. They don't, but if you've got

12:37

two different positions. So when you point a

12:39

CEO, they are the

12:41

face in a different way. I mean, that the players

12:43

are the face of Essendon and the coaches to

12:45

a degree, but the CEO is the

12:47

leader of the business. And NFL clubs are

12:49

businesses. Right? They employ hundreds,

12:51

probably thousands of people and

12:53

they're all different sorts of people.

12:56

So what's been interesting is that we've

12:58

learned more and more that While

13:01

public trust has evaporated in

13:03

institutions like governments and

13:05

experts, people

13:07

are now expecting a lot more of

13:09

their employers. They

13:11

expect their employers to

13:13

embody their social

13:15

identity. problem. Whether it's a problem or

13:17

not, it's a reality that employers are having to

13:19

face. So when Black Lives Matter happened,

13:21

when Mardi Gras happens, when

13:23

the yes and no vote happened, for

13:26

example, around marriage equality,

13:28

Malomir came out and said we are

13:30

not accepting any

13:31

advertising dollars from

13:34

the no side. Now

13:36

other media organizations did, that's

13:38

on them, but we knew that

13:40

that went against

13:43

our values of our company.

13:45

And as the owners of that company, we get to

13:47

make that decision about what money we

13:49

turn away. what I'm saying is

13:51

that when you have a faith,

13:53

like you talked about being Catholic, and this is a little

13:55

bit of a straw man you're saying that even though I

13:57

understand why you think there's a comparison. that

14:00

faith can be whatever you want it to be.

14:02

Like, faith is a very personal and

14:04

individual thing and it can be, I like

14:06

these things about Catholicism but not

14:08

those. And I consider myself

14:10

Jewish. I accept some things about the

14:12

Jewish religion and other things I

14:14

don't. And of course, every religion is on the

14:16

spectrum and there are extreme versions of

14:18

every religion. and there are

14:20

progressive or moderate versions of that religion.

14:22

When you have a leadership

14:25

role in a church, for better

14:27

or worse, it

14:27

means that you are

14:30

associated with for

14:32

better or worse, the values

14:34

of that organization. As

14:37

Holly said, he could have kept going to that

14:39

church. No one asked what his religion

14:41

was. But when you are also

14:43

the president. I think that was his

14:45

role, chairman. It doesn't mean

14:47

that he agrees with every single chairman. I

14:49

understand that, but Essendon also

14:51

have a business to protect. And if

14:53

their staff, their supporters suddenly

14:56

say, well, hang on a second. This guy who you've

14:58

picked as the leader of our

15:00

club is

15:00

a leader in an organization that

15:03

says abortion

15:03

is murder, you know, whatever it

15:06

happens to be, these are also business

15:08

decisions, Jesse. But it's it's about what

15:10

you're actually going to bring

15:12

to the workplace. And I think that what we're seeing is a

15:14

conflict of rights. No. I would say

15:16

what he would bring to the workplace is

15:18

massive disruption. and he would say something

15:20

about that club that club doesn't wanna say

15:22

about itself. I think that it is ironic

15:24

that this is a discussion about inclusion

15:26

when I think that with religious

15:28

people

15:29

in some circumstances, there is

15:31

a discrimination based on religion.

15:33

That's how I'm saying it.

15:35

And I think that's why they don't want to show me

15:37

not that Jesse because also in the case

15:39

of this religion, it's about taking

15:42

away the rights of people. inclusion

15:45

is about giving more people

15:47

rights. You know, this pushback

15:49

against religion is

15:51

not just about we don't like anyone

15:53

that believes in God or anyone that has faith because

15:55

I think that's really unfair just

15:57

on principle. I agree with you.

15:59

But when it's a religion,

16:02

that

16:02

defines itself by

16:05

what it says that other people aren't allowed

16:07

to do and calling people

16:09

names like murderers, women who

16:11

have abortion, or sinners, people

16:13

who are in same sex relationships. That's

16:15

different. That's about taking away

16:17

the rights or impinging on the rights

16:20

or reputation of other

16:22

people. I don't think we can police what

16:23

people believe in. No one is policing his

16:26

beliefs. One hundred percent. It's

16:28

not about beliefs.

16:38

How's it got health you too?

16:40

There's

16:40

a TikTok that you should. Can I wait

16:42

to be better? Sorry. I didn't know it was a rhetorical

16:45

question, Jesse. There's

16:46

a TikTok niche being carved

16:48

out for everybody. And gut

16:50

health is a big viral topic it has

16:52

been for ages. Books and books about

16:54

gut health. But right now, it's

16:56

gut health as a term on TikTok

16:58

has raked in more than two and a half billion

17:00

views. I'm literally gonna take a shot

17:02

at olive oil for you right now. So I'm gonna do the

17:04

Chia seed internal shower, so you don't

17:06

have to. You're supposed to do a half

17:08

to a full lemon. I'm gonna do the full

17:10

because I really, really want

17:12

this to work. An article on stylist

17:14

at the minute speaks about this trend and

17:17

flags how, in many cases,

17:19

hashtag gut health on TikTok is

17:21

really about MLMs. So

17:23

that's multi level marketing

17:25

schemes, which always confuse me,

17:27

but it's basically about people pretending

17:29

to be your friends that they sell you stuff.

17:32

like a pyramids game. Yeah. the IV? Yeah. Right.

17:35

Fiona Ward wrote, these TikTok videos

17:37

show women before and after healing

17:39

their guts, so to speak. where

17:41

before they were uncomfortable and often

17:43

despondent looking, the aftertends to

17:45

show a new lease of life and crucially

17:47

a flat belly. Many have

17:49

criticized the phenomenon of repackaging diet

17:52

culture as wellness, and honestly,

17:54

the prevalence of ideal REITs

17:57

slim stomachs is hard to ignore. Take a shot

17:59

of it every day and you'll lose weight and there's like

18:01

so many health benefits to it. Now is

18:03

this something that we have come

18:05

across Jesse Stevens, you hang out on

18:07

the TikTok a lot. I do. I

18:09

was speaking to producer, Emma, about this,

18:11

and we reckon that every Millennial,

18:13

Jen Zed, has a mate from school

18:16

who is now a

18:16

gut health influencer. Right. There

18:19

is such a thing. There is

18:21

a gut health and -- Yes. -- and they've

18:23

morphed so cleverly. Mhmm.

18:25

And gut health is a great area because

18:27

I reckon the deep down everyone

18:29

believes they have something wrong with their gut. because

18:31

of things, natural

18:33

digestive processes, such as

18:36

bloating. So women, there's a lot of stuff

18:38

about, like, how to get rid of your

18:40

bloating, which is often what

18:42

happens when we consume food

18:44

into our stomach. Alright.

18:46

You trust us having some Exactly. Exactly. When

18:48

you're a human woman whose stomach is

18:50

not flat? Exactly right. And so

18:52

what you see is people start

18:54

selling diet supplements, teas,

18:58

enemas. That'd be a great thing to be an

19:00

influencer. Hi. I'm an enemur influencer.

19:02

Yeah. One is sponsored me. And I don't

19:04

want to be too dismissive of

19:06

natural paths and people who work in

19:08

alternative medicines because I know that they

19:10

have their place. But a

19:12

lot of people in those spaces will talk about gut health

19:14

because it is something

19:16

that's quite vague. Yeah. You can't argue

19:18

it. Yeah. So In

19:20

this world, they will say that

19:23

uncle skin, depression,

19:26

fertility

19:26

issues, weight gain. Oh.

19:29

Pretty much every single thing

19:31

comes back to the gut. And it's like if we just

19:33

heal the gut, something about

19:35

a microbiome, lots

19:36

of big words, then your life

19:38

would be

19:38

infinitely better. And

19:40

by coincidence,

19:41

I have this product, and it

19:43

will cost you Five

19:45

ninety five is probably more expensive. And it

19:47

will A hundreds of dollars -- Hundreds of dollars. Yes.

19:49

-- regime's cost -- Exactly. -- by all

19:51

the prongs. It targets women

19:54

particularly,

19:54

I think because of things like bloating. And I think that women

19:56

have different, you know, processes often than

19:58

than men do. And I have

19:59

just noticed it so much because

20:02

Instagrams have cracked down on it. And

20:04

now there's been this movement to

20:06

TikTok. We became very literate in pyramids game,

20:08

so they turned into MLMs. And now

20:10

we've become literate in that. They're so much more

20:13

covert. and sometimes I'm watching it going. Hang on.

20:15

Are you trying to sell me something? And it takes

20:17

me a way longer time to

20:19

even work it out. Have you had

20:21

health stuff. I haven't. Yeah. But that might

20:23

be because I'm a little bit older than you. But

20:25

I have watched that multilevel marketing

20:27

where it's basically about

20:30

you buy a whole lot of products and then you sell

20:32

them to your friends and then you encourage them to

20:34

sell to their friends and then then you pay

20:36

on your upline so everyone that you

20:38

sell to, you always get cut

20:40

when they start selling other people. So

20:42

I've watched it move from

20:45

leggings to berry supplements

20:48

like blue berry supplements. Yep. Essential

20:50

oils. Essential oils. Life coaching was

20:52

a thing for a while and all

20:54

these still around. Yeah. Where it

20:56

was, like, all coaches, trying to

20:58

get people to do courses, to become

21:01

life coaches, to get people

21:03

to do courses, to become life

21:05

coaches, and you start to notice a certain pattern

21:07

and rhythm and language because they're

21:09

all handed these same templates.

21:12

for how to sell. to me, the gut health

21:15

thing is just about

21:16

flat stomachs. It's just about it's

21:18

like Gwyneth in her gold

21:21

That was all just about selling diet products.

21:23

That was a diet ad, essentially. It's

21:26

look how skinny I am. The

21:28

allure of the flat stomach is something that

21:30

has been perpetuated and will always

21:33

poke women in their insecurity and

21:35

vulnerability. So who doesn't

21:37

wanna have less of a poochie style? true

21:39

because the thing is, is I do I mean, I

21:41

don't wanna overshare with the group,

21:43

but I do have Doji got. And

21:45

I've had Doji got for years and years and years

21:47

and had all kinds of bloody exploratory things about

21:49

it. And it

21:50

has nothing to do with a bloated stomach. Like,

21:52

if you took a picture of me when I'm

21:54

having a bad got attack day, and

21:56

then you took a picture the next day. I

21:58

I wouldn't look any different. Have

21:59

you got irritable

22:00

bowel syndrome? So pain and,

22:03

you know, hanging kinds of horrible

22:05

issues that go along with that. Sometimes it's

22:07

better, sometimes it's worse. But it's

22:09

got nothing to do with the flat stomachs. You know

22:11

what I mean? So the fact that this

22:13

whole got health thing on TikTok and everywhere else seems to

22:15

basically be as Mia says about flat

22:17

stomachs is very telling. But the

22:19

thing about multilevel marketing

22:21

I think is particularly insidious for women is that

22:24

it's very often sort of

22:26

dressed up as a relationship that

22:28

you're having, whether it's para social relationship with,

22:30

like, oh, this really interesting person

22:32

who reached out to me on social and now we're

22:34

chatting or whether it's actually an IRL

22:36

one in my friend of mine

22:38

have had this experience where particularly when they've been

22:40

in vulnerable stages of their life. So maybe they

22:42

have got an unexplainable health issue or maybe

22:44

they're a new parent. and

22:46

suddenly someone will befriend them, maybe IRL,

22:48

build a relationship, but then it becomes

22:51

apparent. And then they're like, I can help you with

22:53

that if you buy my thing, and it so

22:55

disingenuous. And don't you reckon that

22:57

there's something quite insidious but

23:00

also clever about gut health because it can be a

23:02

really difficult thing to

23:04

treat. there are doctors who have studied

23:06

gut health for ten years in order

23:08

to have expertise in it. And it

23:10

can be something that people go through

23:12

tests and colonoscopy is every kind of test

23:14

you can do with no answers. So

23:16

you find something that's really distressing for a

23:18

lot of people and offer them

23:21

a

23:21

quick solution, and that's obviously gonna be

23:23

profitable. So you can totally

23:25

see why gut health is blown up. But I

23:27

do think that it's the new

23:29

We through phases with health. For a while, it's

23:32

all about the harsh. And then for a while, it's,

23:34

you know, all about now. We are

23:36

just so in the gut. And the idea is

23:38

that you can see health,

23:40

like, your gut health is expressed

23:43

through, you know, the color of your eyes

23:45

type thing, which isn't true.

23:46

it's just interesting that this is kind

23:48

of the new frontier. I'm a smoothie

23:51

fan. I love smoothies in the

23:53

morning. I'm excited because like you, I'm

23:55

big on smoothies and Oh,

23:57

yeah. Out loud. If you

23:59

wanna make out loud, part of your

24:02

routine five day a week. We released

24:04

segments on Tuesdays and

24:06

Thursdays just for Mamma Mia subscribers.

24:08

To get full access, follow the link in the

24:10

show notes big thank you to all

24:12

our current

24:13

subscribers.

24:20

Time for best and worst. Mia

24:23

Friedman. My best has

24:25

been traveling with you guys, and the

24:27

rest of the mama mayor out that crew It's

24:29

been three years since we were the road, and I forgot how funny

24:31

it is, like how much we

24:34

love. First of all, we haven't traveled much.

24:36

Anyone hasn't traveled much. but

24:38

all the traveling I've done since COVID restrictions

24:40

have been lifted, have been with

24:42

my family or my partner which is a different kind

24:44

of travel. Mhmm. There's something about with

24:48

girlfriends that's

24:48

just funny and and just the

24:51

laughs that you have in the and how you're just

24:53

nattering, just constantly. Not

24:55

and not and not and not and love

24:58

that. My worst of the wake has

25:00

been that I've forgotten how hard it

25:02

is

25:02

to travel for a purpose different

25:05

going on a holiday because

25:07

it's just different. Like,

25:08

you might forget your toothbrush or

25:09

something. But when you're traveling for work

25:12

and there are so many moving

25:14

parts because we're traveling

25:16

and we're staying in a hotel and then we've

25:18

got rehearsals and then we've got our costumes for the

25:20

show, but we've got two costumes because we've also got,

25:22

you know, it's complicated. there's

25:25

so many steps and so many moving parts

25:27

and then just charges alone taking

25:29

all the right charges because, you know, when

25:31

when you're traveling in its kind of work, you

25:33

still need a laptop and you need your phone and you need everything

25:35

to sync. And if I got the right chargers and now

25:38

in the EU, I hope this happens

25:40

worldwide. They have said

25:42

that everyone's gotta have one type of charger

25:44

because it's not fair on the people. Please make And

25:47

Apple's gotta make massive changes to their

25:49

product. And I'm just like, thank

25:51

god. Because I need three or

25:53

four different charges when I travel.

25:55

I'd

25:55

rely. My worst

25:57

has been trying to planned engagement

25:59

parties. I want

25:59

it to be a joyful moment. It's not

26:02

joyful. What's your worst last

26:04

week wedding dress shopping? My pleasure. theme

26:06

keeps coming here. This is

26:08

the worst idea I've ever had. Wow.

26:10

being married. Yes. We

26:13

are

26:13

meant to be having an engagement party this

26:15

weekend. Of course, there is a

26:18

catastrophic

26:18

weather event as always. And my friend's house is

26:20

now to water, is now to creek. We've had to

26:22

move out of the creek and do

26:24

some last month to train

26:25

now. I say we. Me

26:29

and I have been in orange

26:32

doing a spot of shopping while

26:34

Luca is in

26:36

Sydney doing everything. There was a point where I think Mayor

26:38

and I were pretending we didn't have internet coverage.

26:40

There was a point in the hotel where we were

26:42

like, cool, what's five is out.

26:45

So last night, we got off stage,

26:47

outladders, and there was a message waiting. We'd

26:49

like to have a debrief our show. We like I

26:51

was waiting for you in re in the recast. We like to

26:53

have a glass of wine. Holly was quick on

26:55

the glass of wine. We like to talk

26:58

amongst ourselves. Jesse and I had a message that

27:00

could we jump on Oh,

27:02

so hang out. Yeah. With

27:06

couple of people, Luca -- To go

27:08

through on our agenda. -- engagement party

27:10

issues. Oh, nice. Yeah. You're

27:12

and Stevens was not on that call on those

27:15

I know. But she no. Truly, and Luca have been

27:17

doing so much. They kept asking us

27:19

to contribute to the conversation, and we just did

27:21

it now. And it

27:23

was such an interesting role reversal

27:25

that it was the man who were like,

27:27

we need to make decisions and coordinating it

27:29

all and just, you know, like, whatever you think. And

27:31

then we were kind of pushing for it to be

27:33

canceled. Secretly, I didn't wanna bring it up.

27:35

Then just you went, look, I think we should consider

27:38

cancellation. hoping that they would go. Yeah. Let's

27:40

count it. It's stressful. You didn't sleep over

27:42

this. It's just so stressful. Oh, give

27:44

us a bear. Sorry to everyone who's got

27:46

events this weekend at Samus. My best

27:48

is a weird best, but I

27:50

was thinking it yesterday. We have

27:52

producers, electrical of an entourage, when I'm

27:54

trying to find, like, a boss bitch,

27:57

that work

27:57

with us. And the thing I love most about

27:59

them is that they give

28:02

us the bad feedback that they

28:04

really do. And

28:06

the thing about this job Some

28:08

of us like it more than others. Yes. Holly's

28:10

very silent. And I don't like it. Well, what I

28:12

like is I like them to say it was really,

28:14

really, really good, but here's a couple

28:16

of things. EMEA likes them to

28:18

go. It was really, really bad.

28:21

Yes. Here's a couple of things. Exactly. The reason

28:23

I love it is that everything

28:25

that we do in this job.

28:27

The failure is so public

28:29

And it's like and the worst part is you see,

28:31

you know, you get feedback about something and you're

28:33

like, yeah, I know. That was shit. I didn't make it here.

28:36

It's just awful. and it's really hard to know who you can

28:38

trust. And when you have people around

28:40

you who you trust and whose opinion you value

28:42

so much, they know exactly how to say it, you know

28:44

what place they're coming from. it

28:46

makes you so much better. And I am

28:48

just like, that's

28:49

been my best. Knowing that I can trust him

28:51

and they're not saying it to hurt my feelings, but

28:53

you just get better and better. So shout out to

28:55

Rachel Lucy and of

28:57

course producer lies and producer and --

28:59

And TALICIA. -- our favorite people.

29:02

Traveled with us and made us much

29:04

better My

29:05

worst was building furniture. I

29:07

spent the entire of last weekend

29:09

building furniture. So, Brent, because we moved

29:11

as the outliers and I moved house last

29:14

weekend. and we moved from places that have got lots and

29:16

lots of built ins to a place with zero.

29:18

So I had nowhere to put any clothes,

29:20

any shoes, any knickers, any anything.

29:23

So We went and bought

29:25

online this

29:26

set of drawers and this wardrobe and I just

29:28

always forget you have

29:29

to actually them together. I

29:31

get our air taskers to come and join us in

29:33

the region. Oh, the region. Yeah.

29:36

Friends. Not like that. Brent?

29:38

nearly divorced me in inverted commas

29:40

on Saturday. I took Matilda somewhere. I came

29:42

back. He was still trying to build the wardrobe. He'd been

29:44

trying to build for two days. and

29:46

he just had that look in his eye. Yeah. And he said, why

29:49

do you keep buying these things?

29:51

And I was like, where do you

29:54

suggested we put our clothes, babe, and so we had a

29:56

fight, that was fun. And then he

29:58

apologized. And then I apologize.

30:00

Still, just a mountain of

30:02

Allen keys and screws and then

30:04

my friend came over to try and help me and we put a whole

30:06

set of drawers together for Billy that was

30:08

back to front inside out. And she said to

30:10

me, have you considered buying

30:12

more expensive furniture that

30:14

comes readily built. And I was

30:16

like, can you do that? Most furniture you

30:18

can't. Most furniture just because of

30:21

shipping. is

30:21

flat packed. And I have to say, whole,

30:23

I love

30:24

building Oh, I

30:25

hate it. I don't know why. It's like doing

30:27

A3D puzzle. No. Because

30:29

only and I are the type of people who go with the

30:31

vibe, not the instructions. I never read instructions,

30:34

and you have to read instructions, and you

30:36

have to read them really carefully, like,

30:38

that little hole on that illustration, it

30:40

should be there, not there. I mean, you just dig on a

30:42

podcast and you go into hyperfocus

30:44

and I just quite love it. I feel See, this is why I love

30:46

it. Yeah. Holly, we don't buy expensive furniture.

30:48

We go to Facebook marketplace where someone has

30:51

already put together and we get them for delivery. That's what we do. I

30:53

should have done that. Anyway, and my best was

30:55

the traveling but also being on

30:57

stage again last night. Like, we

30:59

haven't been on stage

31:01

together like that for three years.

31:03

And the outliers who came

31:05

to orange were so much fun.

31:07

We had feather boas in the crowd. We had, like, sequence.

31:10

We had sequence. Mia loves

31:12

a bit of crowd work. Her outfit is

31:14

so on that stage. Yep.

31:17

And I was really nervous. Jesse and I always get really

31:19

nervous before the show, and I had to do lots

31:21

of nervous weeds. And I was so nervous before

31:23

we went out there, I felt sick. But

31:25

when I was out there, I had just loved

31:27

it and it made me feel great.

31:29

I hope everybody who came had a great

31:32

time remember There are a few tickets left for

31:34

Adelaide and maybe a couple for Sydney.

31:36

I'm not sure. But anyway, the best

31:38

was definitely singing and

31:40

dancing with you. And everyone said that

31:42

their favorite They got a lot of behind the

31:44

scenes stuff that we wouldn't talk about

31:46

on the

31:46

podcast. And it's got a lot of swearing. Yeah.

31:48

They also like that. can get

31:50

virtual tickets as well. Remember, if you are? Of course,

31:52

if you live somewhere where we're not coming. Or if

31:54

you just wanna see it

31:55

again. If you are a MamaMears subscriber,

31:58

you get a free

31:59

virtual ticket to

32:01

watch the show. Otherwise, you can buy

32:03

one, but why would you? Because you

32:05

can become a Monomer subscriber for,

32:08

like, less than six dollars a month.

32:10

And, you know, you got

32:11

a ticket. A ticket cost, I think, twenty nine dollars,

32:13

so you do the math.

32:16

Jesse

32:16

has a quick recommendation before we go.

32:18

I do. I was not interested in

32:20

this book at all and my sister bought it,

32:22

wouldn't stop raving about it, so I picked

32:24

it up afterwards. There is a sequel to the boy in the striped

32:26

pyjamas. I loved the boy in the striped pyjamas,

32:29

obviously seen the film. Are we all aware that

32:31

the main character in boy in the striped pyjamas is

32:33

now Otis from sex education? Are

32:35

we all? Yes. I just thought I'd put that.

32:37

Really? Yes. With the big blue eyes, dark hair,

32:39

pale skin. Anyway, I know there's been a

32:41

bit of controversy about it, but I love

32:44

the film.

32:44

The writer has written a sequel and

32:47

it is called all the Broken Places.

32:49

It is a brilliant

32:52

book. It is so clever It's

32:55

about when is a monster's child

32:58

culpable? It's

32:58

about guilt and redemption

33:01

sort of what happened after we don't talk about that often. What

33:03

happened to people who lived in Nazi Germany

33:05

and then fled to parts of Europe. Some

33:07

of it is said in Sydney,

33:09

And were these Nazi hunters who were

33:12

trying to identify certain

33:14

accents to work out what your role was

33:16

in the war. It's

33:19

about how

33:19

your world forms you and how

33:21

guilty that makes you, it follows the

33:23

life of the little boy and boy in the striped pyramids

33:25

had a sister. and she's now

33:27

ninety and living in London, and it follows her life

33:30

and what happened to her afterwards. Wow.

33:32

It's really good. All the broken

33:34

places, it's amazing. That

33:36

is all we've got time for. Our wonderful outliers

33:38

this week will be

33:39

back in your ears obviously on

33:42

Monday. If you do need something else

33:43

to listen to until then, yes,

33:45

today's subscriber episode was about when

33:47

your body goes out of fashion and it was

33:50

about the fact that

33:53

apparently size zero, shutter shutter trend is

33:55

coming back and what that

33:57

means for us all. You can find that through a

33:59

link in our show notes.

34:01

Until

34:01

then, the producer of today's Mom Mira Cloud

34:03

is Emma Gillespie with audio production

34:05

from Leah Corges, and we will see you

34:07

next week. Bye. Big

34:10

thanks to anyone listening who has become a

34:13

Mamma Mia subscriber. Subscribers get

34:15

access to every podcast,

34:18

exclusive videos, and all the

34:20

great articles on Mamma

34:22

Mia. Subscriptions cost as little as

34:24

five seventy five a month. There's a

34:26

link in our

34:28

shornites.