0:07

Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine

0:09

of Discovery podcast . The

0:11

producers of this podcast would like to

0:13

acknowledge with respect the Onondaga

0:16

Nation firekeepers of the Haudenosaunee

0:18

, the indigenous peoples on whose ancestral

0:21

lands Syracuse University now stands

0:23

, and now introducing

0:26

your hosts , phil Arnold and Sandy

0:28

Bigtree .

0:31

Welcome back to Mapping the Doctrine

0:34

of Discovery . My name's

0:36

Phil Arnold . I'm faculty

0:38

in the Department of Religion at Syracuse University

0:40

and core faculty in Native American Indigenous

0:43

Studies and the founding

0:45

director of the Scano Great Law Peace Center

0:47

.

0:48

And I'm Sandy Bigtree , a citizen of

0:50

the Mohawk Nation at Akwesasne , and

0:53

I'm on the collaborative for

0:55

the Scano Center and the Board of the Indigenous

0:57

Values Initiative .

1:00

And we're coming to you today , sponsored

1:03

by the Henry Luce Foundation , and

1:06

we really appreciate their continued support

1:08

for this important conversation

1:11

we're having Today

1:13

. We're super happy

1:15

to have Patrick Gonzalez-Rogers

1:18

join us , and

1:21

Patrick was

1:23

kind enough to invite Sandy

1:25

and myself out to Yale to

1:28

give a presentation to his class you

1:31

know last year and

1:38

I think we really we really got to know a lot of good people there .

1:40

The students were so engaged and well informed , so it was really

1:42

one of our better experiences

1:44

with such interaction from the

1:47

students . Good job .

1:48

Yeah , and so , patrick , I'll

1:51

just let you introduce yourself . You

1:53

know you can talk about what you're

1:55

doing there at Harvard , or sorry

1:57

? Yeah , oh , my gosh , I'm sorry to make that mistake

1:59

. Yeah . Bite your tongue what

2:04

you're doing out there in Yale .

2:06

Yeah , just begin yeah .

2:07

And then and then , and

2:10

let us know what your work is currently .

2:13

Yeah , so Pat Gonzalez Rogers

2:15

. I'm a faculty at the Yale School

2:17

of Environment . I teach a class

2:19

this semester around

2:22

tribal natural resources

2:25

and sovereignty and

2:27

I think it's worthwhile to just explain

2:30

a bit about my background so people have

2:32

a context to how I come about

2:35

a lot of this . So , previous

2:37

to Yale , I was the inaugural executive

2:40

director of the Bears Ears Intertribal

2:42

Coalition and have

2:45

previously held more

2:48

than a few jobs within the federal

2:51

kind of apparatus , mainly

2:54

along the lines of being

2:56

the Senior Native Advisor for

2:58

several federal agencies . But

3:00

I've also served as the Assistant

3:03

General Counsel to the US Senate Indian

3:05

Affairs Committee and the Director of Federal

3:07

Relations for the Office of Hawaiian Affairs

3:09

. That said , while

3:11

I do most

3:14

of my work within Indian country

3:16

, I always am clear

3:18

I'm not Native American , I am

3:20

Indigenous , I'm on my mom's

3:22

side , both Tagalog , which is the largest

3:25

indigenous group to the Philippines , as well

3:27

as being Samoan . So

3:30

you know , a lot of my

3:32

work is really within the

3:34

intersect and kind of construct

3:37

of conservation and environmental

3:40

issues , hence

3:42

the Bears Ears Intertribal

3:44

Coalition . But you know , one of the

3:46

foundational pieces as

3:48

I present the history of

3:50

Indian law and policy and

3:53

again this is within the context

3:56

of the School of Environment

3:58

is to really set

4:00

a foundation towards

4:03

those things that really set up

4:05

the underpinnings and cornerstones

4:07

to contemporary policy . And

4:09

I think it comes as a surprise to many

4:11

that the doctrine of discovery

4:14

is not just this kind

4:16

of historical

4:19

affectation . It is

4:21

living with us today

4:23

and is quite prominent

4:25

towards how

4:27

we view , operate and

4:30

implement many

4:32

of the aspects of the federal trust

4:34

relationship which are at the

4:36

primacy to the

4:38

government-to-government relationship

4:40

, how every tribe conducts

4:42

its business , and so I say

4:44

that as a kind of a

4:47

bit of framing for the

4:49

rest of our conversation today

4:51

, that's very helpful

4:53

, thank you .

4:54

Well , it's really difficult when , under

4:57

the doctrines of discovery , colonists

4:59

came into our territories and

5:02

targeted sacred places

5:04

. In Mexico , many

5:06

of the sacred pyramids were

5:09

leveled and the rubble was actually

5:11

used to construct churches so

5:13

they could shift the spiritual

5:15

control of the narrative

5:18

there in those places . So

5:20

we see that with Mount Rushmore , those

5:22

mountains were sacred to the Lakota

5:24

, and then Bears Ears

5:26

as well . Right ?

5:30

And many other sites all over the country . Yeah , maybe you could talk about Bears Ears and

5:32

help fill in our audience what's

5:34

going on there . You

5:36

know historically and then recently .

5:39

Yeah , let me just take a step

5:41

backwards here . Let

5:53

me just take a step backwards here , and this is kind of a foundational

5:55

piece for maybe some of the listeners that may not have the kind of background to see

5:57

how problematic this is . So we have the doctrine of discovery right , and Phil

5:59

, you're a much , much more erudite and nuanced expert . But in

6:01

many ways the doctrine of discovery

6:04

is the template

6:06

of modern genocide . It

6:08

is one , the conquering of lands

6:10

. Then two , saying that

6:13

your particular theology , your

6:15

God , is flaccid , it

6:17

is insufficient . Let me replace

6:19

it . And then telling the people

6:22

to assimilate , and

6:28

then telling the people to assimilate , and then followed by violence , the

6:30

violence about snatching children away from their immediate family , the sexual

6:32

assault of the women , and

6:34

then doing this under the kind

6:36

of guise that we have something

6:39

better to offer . Right , and

6:54

I think we've seen this play out in a kind

6:56

of a contemporary global

6:58

aspect did a 180

7:01

pivot and said we're now going

7:03

to offer up Indian lands

7:05

to private concerns

7:07

and you can buy them . But

7:10

what many people do not

7:12

know is they had these

7:14

intermediaries , and these intermediaries

7:17

were not objective or balanced

7:20

and in many times they were just

7:22

crooked . But the biggest contingency

7:25

of those intermediaries were

7:27

churches . They were Christian

7:29

denominations that then stepped

7:32

in the road because they wanted to create

7:34

land bases and still go

7:36

about the business of proselytizing

7:39

native people . And so in

7:42

this period which , you know , you

7:45

don't have to be a liberal or a conservative

7:48

or anything in between was

7:50

a very unproductive period in which

7:52

millions of acres were lost

7:54

by tribal communities , but

7:57

the biggest benefactors

7:59

were the Christian denominations

8:02

, because they stepped in and

8:04

then assumed the role of both negotiations

8:07

as well as acquiring lands

8:09

for their own vested interests

8:11

. And so now

8:14

you again have this continual

8:16

kind of methodical process

8:18

of taking away the

8:21

real spiritual and theological

8:23

kinds of values from

8:25

these Native communities . And

8:27

so let's fast forward . When we think

8:29

about the Bears Ears , in

8:31

many ways what

8:33

we're trying to say

8:36

is not only

8:38

are tribes really valuable

8:40

, productive and efficient

8:42

land stewards . By

8:44

advancing and elevating

8:47

tribes as a co-manager to

8:50

a national monument , you

8:52

are really exercising

8:54

this really profound force

8:56

multiplier . And the other elements

8:59

of that force multiplier is having

9:01

traditional and native ways instruct

9:04

the land management plan , which

9:06

invariably allow for a greater

9:08

birth of cultural and native practice

9:11

on the landscape . The

9:13

problem , as both

9:15

Sandy and Phil know , is we

9:18

view all of this within

9:20

the Western construct of

9:22

law right , and so

9:24

the thing that has kind

9:27

of plagued us all these years

9:29

is this really nebulous

9:32

term called substantial

9:35

burden . But that substantial

9:37

burden , ie substantial burden

9:40

for that community to worship , is

9:42

defined by Western

9:44

standards and largely

9:47

by a Judeo-Christian

9:49

kind of instruction

9:51

to all that . And I would say

9:55

to all my brethren in Judaism

9:57

it's largely Christian and

10:00

very little Judaism on that , so

10:02

it is a Christian construct

10:04

to what creates a substantial

10:07

burden and why that's so

10:09

important to the conversation is

10:11

from a native kind of perspective

10:15

. We are not trying to make

10:17

specific identification

10:20

of a nave , of a stained

10:22

window , of a confessional

10:24

, of a pew . The

10:26

entrance to a landscape like

10:28

the Bears Ears , which is incredibly

10:31

vast , is the

10:34

gully that you walk in through a

10:36

creek , the mesa

10:38

that you climb , the enclosure

10:41

that you get to has an equanimity

10:44

to it and that equanimity

10:46

creates the sacredness . Now

10:48

that same kind of

10:51

sensibility is incredibly

10:53

valuable from a conservation

10:56

, because now we are not

10:58

trying to protect a 20 by

11:00

20 space , we are trying

11:02

to protect a 15

11:04

mile radius relative to

11:07

it . But what it says is all

11:09

elements are sacred , they

11:11

are just as meaningful to

11:13

where the actual kind of ceremony

11:17

or practice might be , and so , from

11:19

a Western perspective , what they

11:21

really want to do is create consistency

11:24

and durability , but they also want

11:26

to be really specific , right ? So

11:28

they want to say , oh , the overhang is

11:30

important , so let's just protect that

11:33

. And the reality is , the

11:35

totality of landscape

11:37

is the thing that creates

11:40

this element to native people

11:42

in which they want to protect , and

11:45

so I think the better way to think about

11:47

it is , if you had an entryway

11:50

to a synagogue , you wouldn't

11:52

defecate on it , you

11:54

wouldn't have graffiti on it , and

11:56

the entryway is just as

11:58

important as the inner sanctum

12:01

. And so we need to look at the totality

12:03

, but also the sensibility of

12:06

the people that actually worship

12:08

, and so , in many ways

12:10

, the Bears Ears is a great manifestation

12:13

of that , because it allows

12:15

the five tribes involved to

12:18

not only have their particular

12:20

idiosyncratic sensibility

12:22

because not all tribes are you

12:25

know , this is not monolithic but

12:27

it also then allows

12:29

us to protect the landscape in

12:32

a much more comprehensive way

12:34

. So , in many ways , you're getting

12:36

a twofer off of that . You're protecting

12:38

the total landscape and

12:41

you're protecting everything inside of that

12:43

. I

12:48

just discovered that was the Utah delegation

12:50

.

12:57

That was so valuable , pat . I really

12:59

appreciate that whole kind of exposition

13:02

of really the problem of religion

13:04

. I'd say I mean a problem of defining

13:06

religion into

13:09

kind of narrow Western sort

13:11

of framework that

13:21

we have in the academic study of religion . How do Indigenous

13:23

people really participate in that worldview

13:25

? It doesn't fit and

13:27

this is why so many of our Supreme

13:30

Court cases over the last 40

13:32

years really don't have

13:34

any teeth when it comes to

13:37

defending these sacred places

13:39

. Right , if you look

13:41

at federal

13:43

Indian law , the American

13:46

Indian Religious Freedom Act really

13:48

has not helped in

13:51

protecting these sacred places

13:53

and I'm wondering

13:55

if that's kind of what we're

13:58

dealing with when it comes to the kind

14:00

of fallout around sacred

14:02

places like the Bears Ears , you

14:04

know . I mean the integrity

14:06

of a landscape has

14:08

to be present , it's

14:10

not just a single spot

14:12

where they might perform ceremonies

14:15

at certain times of the year .

14:17

It's a reciprocal relationship with the natural

14:20

world . The natural world is a reciprocal

14:22

engagement .

14:25

Yeah , and so , Sandy , I

14:27

think you make the perfect segue

14:29

. You know , to me another great

14:31

example is Mauna

14:34

Kea is

14:37

sacred in

14:39

many different ways

14:41

for Native Hawaiians , including

14:44

. It is the place where

14:46

they do burials . But

14:48

it also is representative

14:51

of this dynamic of

14:54

Stop for a sec , we

14:59

can edit that out . Okay , one

15:01

second , just let it . Hey

15:05

, I'm

15:09

on an interview right

15:14

now , yeah , yeah

15:16

, speaking

15:32

of religion and Jehovah Witness , they must have heard something

15:34

, so you know where I was

15:36

going to go with . This is Mauna

15:40

Kea . Also represents

15:43

this triangulation that

15:45

is really reflective

15:47

in many Native theologies

15:50

, but for Native Hawaiians

15:53

it is Keakua , god

15:55

right , kekanaka

15:58

, the people , and aina

16:00

, the land . And

16:46

so this representation on how it has equilibrium just go to the other side of the

16:48

mountain , or why don't you just find some alternative so that substantial

16:50

burden again is defined by their kind of what they think is a burden and not viewing

16:53

it again in the totality of what that means to the people ? And all these relationships

16:56

really kind of define

16:58

their spirituality .

17:01

Well , that's great .

17:03

Western religions are more ideological

17:05

. They're not in this

17:07

relationship with the natural world

17:10

and in contact . I mean , it was

17:12

crucial to penetrate this

17:14

way of life and you talk about

17:17

tribal governments today this

17:21

way of life and you talk about tribal governments today . Many of those tribal chiefs

17:23

came through the Bureau of Indian Affairs system , but

17:25

they were selected predominantly

17:28

because those were children

17:30

who'd gone through the boarding school experience

17:33

and had a lot of their culture stripped from

17:35

them . So it's a very complicated

17:38

, you know , series of problems

17:41

in Indian country today because

17:43

of the wrath

17:45

of colonialism and what it

17:47

did culturally .

17:49

I think , too , what

17:51

you're describing also

17:54

is , you know , blatantly

17:56

apparent . The doctrine of discovery is blatantly

17:58

apparent in our environmental

18:00

laws and policies

18:03

, right ? So the

18:05

way that we tend to regard

18:08

the natural world is

18:10

as resource rather

18:13

than as relation

18:15

, right ? And so I

18:17

think what

18:19

you're describing here is also a kind

18:21

of worldview that

18:24

impacts these sacred places

18:26

, you know , like Bears , Ears and other

18:28

spots Onondaga Lake , for

18:30

example and

18:32

I wonder if

18:34

you see that there's a relationship between

18:36

the doctrine of discovery and

18:38

environmental law and policy

18:40

.

18:41

Yeah , most certainly right . So

18:43

you know , the doctrine of discovery is

18:45

the extension of a

18:48

Western European sensibility

18:51

, but the introduction of the legal fiction

18:53

of private land ownership . And

18:56

so , from a Native perspective

18:58

, you know , we are all , in

19:01

most instances , merely

19:04

stewards , right , we are custodians

19:06

of the land . And one of the first things

19:08

, you know , I talked to the students

19:11

about and I said you do not

19:13

have to be Native . But if

19:15

you ask me , one thing on

19:17

how you can be a better steward

19:19

is to revisit

19:21

your relationship with both land

19:24

, water and , to a certain extent , sentient

19:26

objects . And when you view

19:29

them as an extension of

19:31

yourself , right

19:33

, it becomes much more

19:35

intimate . And by

19:37

taking care of these

19:40

things we are essentially taking

19:42

care of ourselves , right . But

19:44

I also think , you know , in a kind

19:47

of a political

19:49

kind of correctness , we

19:52

have now said that man is the problem

19:54

. But you know from , I think

19:56

, from an indigenous perspective , when

19:58

you have this concept

20:02

that land and water and extension

20:04

of yourself , you then can

20:06

also say man can also

20:08

be part of the solution , and you

20:10

do not bifurcate this , right

20:12

, because we are a part

20:15

of this , we

20:23

are a part of this , and so we can then add to it and not just be , you

20:25

know , looking from it from just an academic window

20:27

or a kind of a non-interested , you know , pedestrian

20:29

perspective , and so it

20:32

compels us in a way

20:34

that we can be much more engaged

20:37

, and I think our relationships

20:40

with land and water then become both

20:43

, you know , figuratively , as

20:45

well as literally , much

20:47

healthier .

20:50

Yeah , I wondered about that . I

20:52

mean , as you were speaking , what

20:54

would it look like to have environmental

20:58

law and policy ? I

21:00

mean , you've worked in Washington at a

21:02

kind of urgent moment when

21:21

students and others are

21:23

really trying to think

21:25

of a different way

21:27

that we can be , that

21:29

we can exist in this world , right , that

21:32

human beings need

21:35

to be in a better kind of relationship

21:37

with one another , but also with

21:39

the earth . You know

21:42

, as Taradaho

21:45

Sid Hill says here in

21:47

Haudenosaunee territory , peace

21:50

is only established

21:52

when human beings are in proper relationship

21:55

to the natural world . So this

21:57

isn't a kind of

21:59

puritanical notion or

22:03

something that follows John Muir

22:05

or somebody where you know the

22:07

natural world has to be , remain

22:10

untouched by humans . Rather

22:12

, it's a different way of thinking about

22:15

economics , of

22:19

sane use

22:21

of the earth

22:23

, right ? So I wonder Engagement

22:25

, yeah , engagement with the earth . So

22:27

how do you see

22:30

, as somebody who's training students in

22:32

this area , how do you see us moving

22:34

forward with a new set of values ? Us moving forward , you

22:36

know , with a new set of values

22:38

.

22:46

Well , I think the biggest thing that you know comes to mind when I think about

22:48

conservation from an indigenous perspective

22:50

and really driven

22:52

by that kind of precept , is

22:55

durability and sustainability . We

22:57

use those as buzzwords right

23:00

now , but in reality

23:02

Native people knew

23:04

that all natural resources have

23:06

a limitation , and that's not

23:09

to say Native people were perfect in every

23:11

instance . But because

23:13

of traditional

23:15

knowledge in at least one

23:17

corner is steeped in the observational

23:20

knowledge of what occurs over

23:22

generations and decades , they

23:25

were able to acquire information

23:27

that they could then pass down to say

23:29

if you did this , you

23:32

may have the

23:35

utilization of a waterway

23:38

for 20 or 30 years

23:40

, but if you did it this other way

23:42

, it might be indefinite

23:44

into the future , and

23:46

so it really hallmarks

23:49

that . You

23:51

know , while people hear these terms like

23:53

seven and eight generations

23:55

out , it was at

23:57

the kind of seven

24:02

and eight generations out . It was at the kind of you know , the foundation of how they

24:04

thought about conservation and the environment , because

24:06

they knew they had to pass that down

24:08

, and so it

24:10

in many ways dilutes the

24:12

kind of oh

24:14

, you know what I call shooting for Q4

24:16

. And that is . Oh , you know what I call shooting for Q4 , and that is

24:18

, can we make a profitability

24:21

out of this ? And then

24:23

we will regroup and think

24:25

about the future of everyone else

24:27

. And so instead

24:30

, what you're saying is

24:32

our primary kind of goal

24:34

is to preserve

24:36

and pass it down better , and

24:38

when you have that as

24:41

your initial goal , you

24:50

then are really in this kind of mode of real conservation and being stewards

24:52

of the land , and so the first thing I think about in that

24:54

is that that is a very durable way

24:57

to manage

25:00

lands and waters , and

25:03

I'm rather certain the

25:05

paradigms

25:07

and models that we use now

25:09

relative to most extraction

25:12

, people cannot say with a straight

25:14

face , there is a durability and sustainability

25:17

to it . Straight

25:20

face , there is a durability and sustainability to it . They're looking at such kind of

25:22

small like elements of time on how

25:24

they want to utilize it , and it usually

25:26

has some profit margin

25:29

or a dividend or a share

25:31

kind of incentive

25:33

to it , which really then

25:35

confuse the

25:39

objectives of conservation

25:41

and environment .

25:44

Do you need help catching up on today's topic or

25:46

do you want to learn more about the resources mentioned ? If

25:49

so , please check our website at podcastdoctrineofdiscoveryorg

25:54

for more information and , if

25:56

you like this episode , review it on Apple

25:58

, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts

26:00

. And now back to the conversation

26:02

.

26:05

When you interject that the earth is

26:07

regenerative , it's ever-changing

26:09

. Species die , species

26:12

are born . It's

26:15

a whole different connection

26:17

to the earth . You can foretell

26:20

what kind of fish will appear in

26:22

the stream when they breed , by

26:25

a certain wildflower that may be

26:27

blooming I mean the Haudenosaunee

26:29

, for

26:34

example , had this language , as all Native people do . You know the world speaks to them and

26:36

how things are changing and the rhythms and times , which are not according

26:39

to a calendar , but they're according

26:41

to these cycles of life

26:44

. So it's so interactive

26:46

and it's really hard to say . You can manage

26:48

anything , but you need to tap

26:50

into that regenerative

26:52

machine of creation that

26:55

we're part of .

26:56

Right , right yeah .

26:59

So , you know , one of the things and I

27:01

haven't got to both of you and

27:03

I was going to kind of tell you about

27:06

is so one of the things that

27:08

I'm working with at Yale now

27:10

is doing something , probably

27:13

in the fall where

27:15

we would bring folks like yourself

27:17

, but also with other

27:19

people that you know may

27:21

be more based from the historical

27:24

, but also attorneys

27:27

, to see if

27:29

there is not a legal

27:32

remedy , at least

27:34

for tribes in

27:36

the US as well as Alaska Natives

27:39

, relative to the doctrine of discovery

27:41

, I think we have had really robust

27:43

discussions that really

27:45

kind of provide a summation on

27:48

the implications and what

27:50

we are now living

27:52

with . The thing that we have not

27:55

done is figure out

27:57

is

27:59

there a way to confront

28:02

the involved denominations

28:04

on restoring

28:07

tribal nations ? And

28:09

the reason why I say that is

28:11

this is really

28:14

. I think about it in a fairly

28:16

simplistic way , as I do most things

28:18

, I'm not the most nuanced

28:21

thinker , but it is like an apology

28:23

, right , it is , I am sorry

28:26

. Two , this will

28:28

not happen again . But three

28:30

, and this is , you know , analogous

28:32

to restorative justice , which is

28:35

a Christian precept to all of these

28:37

denominations . How

28:39

can I make you whole ? And

28:41

so , while Mennonites , quakers and

28:43

even the Catholic Church have apologized

28:46

. They have not satisfied

28:49

that third element , which is probably

28:51

the most important how have

28:53

I made these other parties whole

28:55

for actions that I am

28:58

culpable for ? And so

29:00

the convening

29:03

would be to really kind of put

29:05

in the thinkers of this world and

29:07

maybe to get audience with these

29:09

denominations to say is it there

29:11

a pathway ? Now , the reason I mentioned

29:14

this one this is kind of your guy's life

29:16

work , so I would like

29:19

your engagement . But

29:21

the other portion is

29:24

portion

29:32

is . I think if we can get the denominations , especially the Mennonites and Quakers , to

29:34

move , it might create leverage to the Catholic Church

29:36

. All of that is

29:38

important . But I also

29:40

think there's an organic , natural

29:42

kind of segue to land back

29:45

. All of these denominations have

29:47

large land holdings , and

29:49

so if they're talking about are

29:51

we ever going to make Indian country totally

29:53

whole no , that's not possible

29:55

, it's too vast amount . But

29:57

can they do in some way

30:00

start returning

30:02

lands , because we now have the apparatus

30:05

to do ? Can we

30:07

start this conversation Because

30:35

really , at the end of the day , relative

30:38

to your own doctrinaire , you

30:40

have not satisfied what

30:42

is required . What do you

30:45

think about that ? I mean to reverse

30:47

the role of the interviewing .

30:49

Phil and Sandy Absolutely Returning

30:52

land to Indigenous people who

30:54

understand this proper

30:56

relationship is only going

30:59

to free up the land and help

31:01

everybody to begin recovering

31:03

from this disconnection

31:05

that's been dumped on everybody

31:08

through colonialism and

31:10

the church .

31:11

Unfortunately , you were not part of

31:13

our Doctrine of Discovery conference

31:17

last December and

31:20

you should have been , but we

31:23

had lawyers there and their

31:26

whole orientation

31:29

now is how do you put

31:31

before the Supreme Court the doctrine

31:34

of discovery Maybe not this

31:36

Supreme Court , but you know

31:38

, how do you test the

31:41

doctrine of discovery

31:44

, which , as we know , is part of property

31:46

law , Doctrine of Discovery , which , as we know , is part of

31:49

property law . The other part of what we did at the conference was

31:51

we had a bishops panel where

31:54

Lutheran

31:56

, Episcopalian and

31:58

Catholic bishops were

32:01

on the stage in front of all

32:03

these indigenous peoples and then

32:05

they were responded to by

32:07

Haudenosaunee leaders

32:09

, a clan mother and someone

32:12

who sat on the chief's council

32:14

for 25 years , and

32:17

essentially what came up was exactly

32:19

what you're talking about , Pat . Was that

32:21

essentially okay

32:24

? Apologies are great . We've

32:26

had over 350 you

32:29

know repudiations of the

32:31

doctrine of discovery . Now

32:33

, what you know ? Now , what are

32:35

we going to do ? It's a little like our

32:37

universities giving land acknowledgements

32:40

, you know and then no , and

32:42

then now ? what do we do now

32:44

? What are you going to do about it ? Sort of thing .

32:46

Yeah , you

32:48

make , as always , phil

32:51

, a very nuanced point , and

32:53

so the more I think about

32:55

this . But I would like the convening to really

32:57

instruct it , as opposed to , you

32:59

know , some kind of guttural instinct , but

33:02

my sense is it

33:04

is less legal and more

33:06

political . Right , there's

33:11

a kind of a political thing that

33:14

must occur , and so I agree

33:16

with everything you say . But I

33:18

think , like everything , we need to then

33:20

really approach this from an iterative

33:22

process and then set

33:25

the stage for a dialogue

33:27

that continues on the dialogue that you

33:29

have and saying , all

33:31

right , it might be a hard toll

33:34

to kind of if you're thinking about

33:36

you knowaterally kind of agree

33:38

, this is the right thing to do , that's

33:54

what they did .

33:55

So the bishops in the Q&A

33:58

in that panel basically admitted

34:00

yes , that's what we're doing , those

34:02

are the next steps . We are going

34:05

to return land to

34:07

the Onondaga Nation , right . So

34:10

we got those verbal

34:12

assent

34:17

to what the next steps are going to be

34:19

. So I think that's what you're describing

34:21

as a kind of political shift , but

34:24

that's also a kind of value shift

34:26

within these Christian denominations

34:29

, right , and it's across the board . And

34:31

these are big denominations , you know , these

34:33

are mainline churches

34:35

, you know so . And , as you say

34:37

, they have major

34:39

land holdings across the country and

34:42

it goes right back to the early colonial

34:45

period where they are the , as

34:47

you said , the intermediaries

34:49

between the evangelical

34:51

or the missionization of Native people

34:53

and the state right

34:56

, the state takeover

35:01

. So I think we have a basis for

35:04

the kind of convening

35:07

that you're suggesting there , pat

35:10

. I think there's really some real

35:12

possibilities .

35:14

And I think there's an inflection point

35:16

, and this is how I'll bring in back the Bears

35:18

Ears . The inflection point

35:20

of the

35:22

Bears Ears is one

35:25

of competency , and it's

35:27

not that we needed the validation

35:30

of the federal government or this

35:32

kind of Western construct , but

35:34

the federal trust relationship , right

35:36

, is one really saying

35:38

tribes are not competent

35:40

? It is as if the federal government

35:43

is viewing tribes as if they're Britney

35:45

Spears . Right , you cannot make

35:47

decisions . If it's a big thing , you

35:49

got to run back to Papa and we

35:51

got to decide for you . Now

35:54

there's a little wrinkle to this and

35:56

both you and Sandy

35:58

know this . So , while they're doing

36:01

this and preaching assimilation

36:03

, the single biggest feature of assimilation

36:05

they did not give to tribes is fee

36:07

, simple ownership over the lands . So

36:10

the single biggest component

36:12

to acquiring legacy wealth

36:14

was then not given to tribes

36:16

while they're still talking all this BS

36:19

that you should assimilate . So they

36:21

basically say you all need to drive

36:23

a car , but I'm not giving you any carburetor

36:26

or nor will I give you any cylinders

36:28

in the car . Right , they just

36:30

want to give you the thing . But

36:33

I'll go back to

36:35

this kind of belabored point . When

36:37

they said the tribes

36:39

should be co-managers , they

36:41

were really saying is we

36:43

trust the competency of tribes

36:46

? Is we trust

36:48

the competency of tribes ? And so it elevates it

36:50

in a way , now that we can go on these

36:53

other kind of attendant issues

36:55

that are related to the doctrine of discovery

36:57

, and what happened

37:00

through these many denominations

37:02

is to say you know you

37:04

should give back these lands because

37:08

we've always known this , but we're incredible

37:11

stewards and custodians of lands

37:14

and they will be well taken care

37:16

of , Maybe even better taken

37:18

care of than under your

37:21

particular leadership

37:23

. Historical kind of recognition

37:28

of tribes being the first co-managers

37:31

of a national monument , I think

37:33

gives momentum to these other

37:35

movements that have

37:37

land back as part

37:40

of their narrative no-transcript

38:00

but that is not the case where we

38:02

are from .

38:05

So I have to just clarify the Onondaga

38:07

. They never fell under

38:09

that control . The FBI will not

38:11

step foot on their territory unless

38:13

they get permission or any police

38:15

. There's no police state , there's

38:18

no taxes , there's no prisons

38:22

.

38:24

So I mean . So we have a model

38:26

here , I think , and even

38:28

though recently there was the

38:30

return of a thousand acres of

38:33

land , the trust relationship

38:36

is something that the Onondaga will

38:52

not enter into with the federal

38:54

government . They say essentially , either

38:57

you're returning land or you're not

38:59

, I mean , and it becomes part of

39:01

our nation , or it doesn't

39:03

. So there are

39:05

steps that each

39:08

individual case will

39:10

have to be considered , but

39:12

I think getting Christian

39:15

denominations in this

39:17

post-doctrine of discovery

39:19

moment is a really

39:22

good idea in these conversations

39:24

about the return of land . I'm

39:27

very excited about this .

39:29

Post-era . Post-era .

39:30

Post-era yeah .

39:35

Yeah , and it's

39:37

something that I think

39:39

, like so many things

39:41

that have a kind of political

39:44

context , is , you know , sometimes

39:47

you're just in the right place at the

39:49

right time , and while

39:51

it may have nothing to do with the you know

39:53

the topic of the doctrine of discovery I

39:55

think about during the Obama administration

39:58

, where there became an opening

40:00

that was very kind of apparent and vivid

40:03

, in which he then could

40:05

put into law about the legal

40:07

rights for gay

40:11

people in their communities , and

40:13

so some of this is

40:15

to constantly be

40:17

on the vigil that we're creating a momentum

40:20

, because when that opening appears

40:22

it's not something that we've planned

40:25

but we've been prepared

40:45

for , and so , in reality , what I'm

40:48

taking is , you know , the

40:51

kind of conference that you did

40:53

and then continuing answers at once , but

40:55

it may instruct that we need to create

40:57

an organization that is doing

40:59

this 24-7 and having

41:01

, you know , these kinds of conversations

41:04

with all

41:08

of these denominations , because

41:11

I do think in

41:13

some ways we're much closer than

41:15

we have ever been

41:18

, and so this

41:21

is all kind of compounding

41:24

through everyone's , both education

41:26

as well as advocating

41:28

through many conversations

41:31

and doing our own kind of advocacy

41:33

.

41:34

Yeah , and I think it's such an important

41:36

lesson really for

41:38

students . I mean , you know , we're

41:41

training the next generation

41:43

of , you know , indigenous

41:46

advocates for

41:48

the environment , for the natural world , and

41:56

I think , as you say

41:58

, religion needs to step

42:00

up , or these Christian denominations

42:03

need to step up and

42:05

really make a difference

42:07

, because what

42:10

we're facing , what's coming , is really

42:12

going to be catastrophic if

42:14

we don't start changing our practices

42:17

quickly . So , yeah

42:19

, I think there is also the urgency

42:22

of the moment , as well as the kind

42:24

of opportunity that

42:27

has been handed us by previous

42:30

people working on these issues

42:32

.

42:32

Right , you know , and I think

42:34

about this , and I think that you

42:36

know , many people don't

42:38

realize how Native

42:41

communities have pride

42:44

, not equally , but they have pride

42:47

in being an American . Pride not equally , but they

42:49

have pride in being

42:51

an American . They

42:57

have pride in the community they're from . But

42:59

the kind of greater landscape in which they're involved , and I can't help but think

43:01

about the turmoil of the kind of challenge

43:04

of those feelings . Right , you're

43:07

here , but you're also under

43:09

the foot of something , and

43:11

this foot in some

43:13

ways you still have love and pride

43:16

for . And I think about , you

43:18

know the words he was

43:20

not native but they're still prescient

43:23

words of Frederick Douglass

43:25

. He was in these series

43:27

of conversations back in the day with

43:29

someone actually in , if

43:31

I'm not mistaken , in Belfast , and

43:34

he writes in thinking of America

43:36

. I sometimes find myself admiring

43:39

her bright blue sky , her

43:41

grand old woods , her fertile

43:43

fields , her beautiful rivers

43:45

, her mighty lakes and star-crowned

43:48

mountains . But my rapture

43:50

is soon checked , my joy is soon

43:52

turned to mourning when I remember

43:55

that all is cursed with

43:57

the infernal actions of slave-holding

43:59

, robbery and wrong . When

44:01

I remember , with the waters of her noblest

44:04

rivers , the

44:11

tears of my brethren are borne to the ocean , disregarded and forgotten , and that her most

44:13

fertile fields drink daily of the warm

44:15

blood of my outraged

44:17

sisters , I am filled with

44:20

unutterable loathing . You

44:24

know that conflict is

44:26

the thing . That , on a personal level

44:28

, is what we're trying to do , right ? We

44:31

try to reconcile these relationships

44:34

, and so we

44:37

have to prompt the other party to

44:39

do the right thing .

44:42

And to really know equity and

44:44

freedom .

44:45

Exactly , exactly , sandy

44:47

.

44:47

And that was integrated into this

44:50

whole forming of this nation

44:52

when they met with Haudenosaunee

44:54

Loyani , the men of the good mind

44:56

. We don't have a hierarchy of chiefs

44:58

. It's all about integration

45:01

and coming together and thought

45:03

and purpose and living in proper

45:06

relationships . So everybody has

45:08

that hope , but we've not experienced

45:10

freedom and equity yet , right

45:13

.

45:15

What a great way to end our conversation

45:17

. Pat , Really really appreciate

45:19

you and all you're doing there , and

45:23

we hope we can continue this conversation

45:25

into the future .

45:27

We will . I appreciate you guys and

45:29

we'll be talking soon .

45:31

Thank you so much .

45:36

The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett

45:38

and Jordan Lone Colon . Our

45:40

intro and outro is social dancing music

45:43

by Oris Edwards and Regis Cook . This

45:46

podcast is funded in collaboration

45:48

with the Henry Luce Foundation , syracuse

45:50

University and Hendricks Chapel and

45:52

the Indigenous Values Initiative . If

45:55

you like this episode , please check out our website

45:57

and make sure to subscribe .