0:07

Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine

0:09

of Discovery podcast . The

0:11

producers of this podcast would like to

0:13

acknowledge with respect the Onondaga

0:16

Nation firekeepers of the Haudenosaunee

0:18

, the indigenous peoples on whose ancestral

0:21

lands Syracuse University now stands

0:23

, and now introducing

0:26

your hosts , phil Arnold and Sandy

0:28

Bigtree .

0:31

Welcome back everyone to Mapping

0:33

the Doctrine of Discovery . My name is

0:35

Philip Arnold , I'm a faculty

0:38

member in the Department of Religion at Syracuse

0:40

University , core faculty in

0:42

Native American Indigenous Studies , and

0:44

I'm here with and

0:46

I'm Sandy Bigtree , a citizen of

0:48

the Mohawk Nation at Akwesasne .

0:51

I grew up , however , just a couple miles

0:53

north of the Onondaga Nation and

0:57

live on the unceded lands of

0:59

the Onondaga .

1:02

And this podcast is sponsored by

1:04

Henry Luce Foundation Really

1:06

appreciate all their help and support

1:08

in this important work . Today

1:11

we have some really old friends and

1:13

special guests . First

1:18

we have and I'm going to ask you to introduce

1:20

yourselves , because that's probably

1:23

the best and easiest way for

1:25

our folks here that listen to the podcast

1:27

to understand who you are S

1:31

Lily Mendoza and

1:34

Jim Perkinson , both

1:36

faculty members in

1:39

Michigan , my old stomping

1:41

ground and one of the reasons

1:43

why I'm really interested in having

1:46

this discussion today . But

1:48

can you introduce yourself to our audience

1:50

, lily ?

1:53

Maya Payabak Keikongan Diri

1:55

nanda kayong . Maya Payatu Ako

1:58

I Lily Mendoza , anak

2:00

ng Horatio Mendoza , at Esperanza

2:03

Luna . Good

2:06

morning to everyone

2:08

that is from my Kapampangan

2:11

, native tongue . I was born and raised

2:13

in the Philippines , in the land of the Aita

2:15

peoples and in

2:18

a province called Pampanga , by

2:20

the riverbank , and I'm

2:22

here in Wawiatanong

2:25

, the crooked way of the river , home of

2:27

the Anishinaabe people , swayan , the

2:29

Turon Fox , miami , and so

2:31

in Detroit and

2:33

I teach . I'm a

2:36

professor of culture and communication

2:38

at Oakland University

2:41

and also executive director

2:43

of the Center for Babilan Studies

2:45

, which is a movement

2:48

among the esporic Filipinos committed

2:50

to decolonization and indigenization

2:53

.

2:55

Thank you and Jim yes

2:58

, jim Perkinson , I

3:01

can only do this in English

3:03

. I could improvise in

3:06

Spanish , but that's about it grew up in

3:08

Cincinnati , shawnee Territory , and

3:11

now for more than 35 years

3:13

here at Wawiakanaong

3:15

, as my baby spoke

3:18

just a minute ago in introducing herself . I

3:20

won't reiterate that , but do acknowledge

3:23

that ancestry

3:25

here and struggling

3:28

out of those 35 years

3:30

of being rearranged by inner

3:33

city black culture with

3:50

Lily Mendoza in 2001 and having to engage a whole other rite

3:52

of ongoing initiation into Filipino culture , the first official

3:55

colony that settler , colonial state United

3:57

States ever took elsewhere

3:59

. And

4:02

I teach at an inner city seminary

4:05

that over my 25 years

4:07

there has become more reflective of

4:09

Detroit itself . It's located

4:12

in the inner city and is now overwhelmingly

4:15

African-American . And

4:17

I have also taught part-time

4:20

out at Oakland where Lily

4:22

teaches race and communication

4:24

, hip-hop , race in the city , et cetera

4:27

. I do spoken word poetry . I'm an

4:29

activist in the city , particularly

4:34

in the last eight years pushing back on water shutoffs

4:37

and the struggle over the human

4:39

right of water and learning

4:41

that water actually first of

4:43

all belongs to herself . She

4:46

is her own

4:48

creature . So all

4:50

of that is ongoing initiation

4:53

, rearrangement for

4:56

me as white male

4:58

, being greatly gifted with

5:00

all of that input and constant

5:03

checking gifted

5:06

with all of that input and constant checking .

5:07

So full disclosure . Jim

5:09

and I went to graduate school at the University

5:12

of Chicago together . We've

5:14

been , we've , you know , met

5:16

up at various points in our career

5:19

, although we're very , in

5:21

very different kind of circles . In some ways

5:23

We've kept

5:26

in touch . And you know , both

5:28

of you gave really thrilling papers

5:31

at the conference , the Doctrine

5:33

of Discovery conference , which

5:36

was titled Religious Origins of

5:38

White Supremacy no-transcript

6:10

, and so the

6:13

conference was really .

6:16

it felt like home . It

6:19

felt like home to me and

6:21

I think it's

6:24

for me in my own

6:27

journeying . I find

6:29

that there has to be a two-step

6:31

process

6:33

for those

6:35

who are wishing to get

6:39

on this path of not

6:42

just decolonizing but being schooled

6:44

by a different

6:47

vision of how

6:49

to be a human being on this earth , and

6:52

that is , it's

6:54

not just about

6:57

learning

7:00

from indigenous people and

7:02

recovering our own sense

7:04

of ancestral

7:09

reconnection , but

7:11

also understanding the civilizational

7:13

narrative that serves

7:16

as a log in our eyes in

7:18

terms of understanding the

7:22

radical difference between

7:24

indigenous ways of

7:26

being and what we

7:29

have been schooled by , which

7:31

is being thoroughly immersed

7:33

in this narrative

7:36

of progress and

7:38

civilization , et

7:40

cetera . As Charles Solomon has

7:42

said , there is no word

7:45

that is more vague and has

7:47

been permitted to commit more crimes

7:49

than that term

7:51

civilization . And

7:54

so , yeah

7:56

, I was really heartened

7:58

by the presentations that I

8:01

listened to at the conference .

8:04

Well , thank you .

8:11

Yes , for me , being in Syracuse with Phil and Sandy and Steve Newcomb and

8:13

the whole crew of folk was a real

8:15

gift and not something

8:17

I take for granted , a great honor

8:20

and a responsibility

8:22

to live up to , and I enjoyed

8:25

the presentations

8:28

, enjoyed getting to know some folk after

8:32

hours . And

8:34

where I think we

8:36

need to go for me is

8:39

pushing

8:41

through white

8:43

supremacy back to Christian supremacy

8:46

. I would understand white supremacy

8:48

as a kind of offspring

8:50

of Christian

8:54

supremacy , going all the way back to Roman

8:56

times and even then

8:58

back behind that to what Lily

9:00

was talking about civilizational

9:03

supremacy . What

9:07

Lily was talking about civilizational

9:09

supremacy and how to for me , how to do that here in Detroit . We'll talk about

9:11

it as the podcast goes on , but

9:14

most of my work up until

9:16

meeting Lily

9:19

was dealing with whiteness

9:22

in relationship to blackness and pushing

9:24

back on other white folk about that

9:26

, about the white supremacy piece

9:30

. With her , it's been a

9:32

matter of pushing in a sense , underneath

9:35

that to deeper

9:37

history and deeper disappearance

9:39

, the genocidal eclipse of

9:42

native folk , three Fires , folk in this

9:44

area , as well as Wendat Huron that

9:47

still are present here , and

9:49

the question about land return

9:52

. That remains a throbbing , aching

9:55

question that I think needs

9:57

to be the lodestone for all

10:00

of our activity of

10:02

social resistance and pushing

10:04

for a different world , and part

10:07

and parcel of that is learning

10:10

, relearning relationship with the more than human

10:12

world . For me , when

10:14

I go outside the door barefoot

10:16

and wiggle my toes

10:18

in the soil , I understand

10:21

invisibly running between

10:23

my toes and the soil is a river

10:25

of blood that I don't have the right just

10:27

to relate to the land where

10:29

I am and recover ways

10:33

of belonging to the land

10:35

, as Winona LaDuke might say . But

10:37

I have to first pay attention

10:40

to the

10:42

indigenous folk , in

10:44

this case the Three Fires folk who were disappeared

10:47

from so much of this land , and

10:50

get in relationship to those who remain

10:52

. And I'm only here by permission

10:55

, not by any

10:57

title or property

10:59

right , and so I

11:01

try to integrate that into my

11:03

teaching and understand

11:05

that as a huge ongoing agenda

11:08

.

11:09

It kind of connects to what Lily was

11:11

saying . You just can't go back

11:14

and experience

11:16

being indigenous . It's

11:18

like well

11:21

, Charles Long would talk about digging

11:23

through the history . You

11:25

have to understand colonialism

11:27

, and it's so much

11:29

baggage there that there

11:31

is no way you're going to ever

11:34

experience indigeneity

11:37

with the land . Right . But

11:39

future generations may , and

11:41

that's really an indigenous precept

11:44

anyway that you live for seven

11:47

generations , and so it's being

11:49

actively involved in this process

11:52

of decolonization and reconnecting

11:54

with the earth . We're really doing

11:57

this for the seventh generation to come

11:59

. We may see very little of

12:01

an effect in the work that we do , and

12:04

it's difficult work and it's

12:06

very upsetting work every

12:08

day , right .

12:10

And if I can jump in Sandy

12:12

in response , part

12:15

of the process

12:17

for me own

12:20

recovering

12:22

of a sense of indigeneity

12:24

is making

12:26

visible the default

12:29

conditioning right

12:32

, because the narrative

12:34

of modernity and civilization

12:37

is so naturalized

12:39

that we don't think about it

12:42

. It's the default

12:44

assumption of

12:46

what it means to live

12:48

a good life , of what it means to

12:50

be a human being . And

12:52

so when we encounter

12:55

other ways of life

12:57

and for

13:00

example , when I was little

13:02

, I would encounter the

13:05

Aita people , and

13:08

because they no longer

13:10

live in their intact

13:12

communities , I could only

13:14

see them as pitiful , as

13:17

primitive

13:21

, as backward , as representing

13:23

our past that we can

13:25

no longer go back to and shouldn't

13:28

even wish . We can't even imagine

13:30

longing for that

13:32

way of life . We

13:34

ran away from it

13:37

. But my own transformation

13:40

came about when I was

13:42

sitting in an ethnomusicology

13:44

class and for the first

13:47

time I encountered

13:49

the richness of

13:51

Indigenous life since

13:54

that colonial lens

13:57

. You know the amazing

14:00

weaving designs , the architecture

14:02

that

14:04

doesn't use any nails right

14:07

, the basketry

14:09

, the dances

14:11

, and that was what broke

14:13

me open to that

14:16

world and I said , wow

14:19

, why then , if this

14:22

were our people , why

14:25

are we looked

14:28

upon as backward

14:30

and primitive ? Where

14:33

does that come from ? And

14:36

so that started me on that path

14:38

of understanding . What

14:41

are our default assumptions about

14:43

what a human being is supposed

14:45

to be ?

14:47

Well , it was a propaganda campaign

14:49

that the United States implemented

14:52

on the Filipinos in all over

14:54

Southeast Asia to gain

14:56

a stronghold at the turn of

14:58

the 20th century , and

15:01

they used much of the same

15:04

kind of campaign propaganda campaign

15:06

they used to settle the United

15:08

States and portraying Filipinos

15:10

as savages . They used similar

15:13

iconographies and cartoon characters

15:15

and

15:17

teaching everybody about

15:20

indigeneity being below human

15:22

, subhuman . What's

15:25

the book ? The Imperial Cruise

15:27

was a really excellent book to read on

15:29

that subject , right .

15:31

Teddy Roosevelt Traveled with .

15:33

Chad and several congressmen

15:35

were on this cruise and

15:38

it was just ushering forth this

15:40

smear campaign so they

15:42

could acquire stronghold

15:45

.

15:45

That really helped us understand what was

15:47

happening , and the

15:49

foundation of that narrative

15:53

is on a separation

15:56

from the land , because

15:59

living on the land is seen

16:01

as merely being

16:04

an animal , as if being an animal

16:06

were an insult , were an insult right

16:09

. And so people who are still

16:11

living subsistence lives

16:13

, lifestyles

16:19

, are deemed as living like animals . That's why , when they came , they would say

16:21

the land is empty right

16:23

, because they're just part of the flora

16:25

and fauna .

16:27

Except for all the resources Right , exactly

16:29

Even

16:31

in that concept of natural resources

16:34

Right .

16:34

Exactly Even in that concept of natural resources .

16:35

You have built in this idea of development

16:38

and progress .

16:40

And an indigenous way of living with the

16:42

earth is in the way .

16:51

It's a hind struggle with

16:54

the shadow

16:56

side of my ancestry

16:59

and learning

17:01

how to own that honor , that let

17:04

it have space in my body but

17:06

then open to another

17:08

way of being a human , like

17:11

Lily is talking about . Initially

17:13

, for me , learned from African-American

17:16

folk , ordinary low-income folk

17:18

, using the memories and

17:20

the continued bodily expression

17:23

of their traditions

17:25

coming out of West and Central Africa

17:27

, using a percussive vocabulary

17:30

, especially not just in musics but

17:32

in everyday interaction on the street corner , on

17:34

the basketball court , in the beauty salon

17:36

. Ways of arranging fabric

17:39

on the body that are right , primal

17:41

colors juxtaposed that slap

17:43

your eyeball awake from 50 yards away

17:45

. All of that once . It took

17:47

me eight years to get to the point where I could

17:49

even start to see the incredible

17:52

creativity of

17:55

that way of engaging reality

17:57

. A call response , communal

17:59

ethos , probing

18:02

an impossible situation , making desperation

18:04

yield beauty in spite of itself . Once

18:06

I saw it , I fell in love with it . It

18:09

began to rearrange me . It comes out as spoken

18:11

word poetry . But it's not mine

18:13

to take , it's mine to

18:15

, yes , participate in to the

18:17

degree I have permission

18:20

, but stay in relationship with actual

18:22

black folk who can say Jim , uh-uh

18:24

, you're going too far , halt , stop

18:26

, don't steal . And

18:29

that's been the deepest education

18:31

in my life black anger

18:33

and black humor that rearranged molecules

18:35

. But then also learning

18:38

from indigenous folk right

18:41

here , a whole nother way , and

18:43

then in the Philippines , yet another way

18:45

of being a human being that is

18:47

more embedded in land and

18:50

learning from the plants and animals and

18:52

soils and seasons and weather and waters

18:54

. And , for me , being involved in pushing

18:57

back on the water shut off episode

19:00

in Detroit , starting in 2014

19:03

and then 2015 , a

19:05

walk to join the water struggle in

19:07

Detroit with the water struggle in Flint , starting

19:10

at Plaza on the Flint , starting at the Plaza on the Detroit

19:12

River , where Mona Stonefish

19:15

, an Anishinaabe water-walking

19:17

woman , pulled up some water and talked

19:19

to it and talked about

19:22

her people's way of

19:24

relating to water , where it is the sole

19:26

prerogative of women , and

19:28

that pushed me then to have to ask

19:31

questions , not just about

19:33

water as a human right but , as I said

19:35

earlier , water as belonging

19:37

to herself , as a living , spiritual

19:39

creature , animate force

19:42

. And then taking

19:44

that to go back into my own Christian

19:47

formation and my own Indo-European

19:49

formation and going

19:51

back to Ireland particularly

19:53

, and learning some

19:55

of the indigenous traditions there

19:57

the only

20:00

colony in Europe colonized

20:02

by Great Britain or by England , really

20:05

and learning

20:08

some of the deep land

20:10

relationships there that I can't claim

20:12

immediately but they

20:15

are there at some level back

20:17

in my DNA , and

20:20

learn the traces and

20:22

the memories , the myths , the rituals

20:24

, the foods , the songs

20:26

that I can partially

20:28

let rearrange me . And in

20:30

all of that then it's

20:32

not just an experience of dealing

20:35

with shame and horror , but

20:37

it's also astonishment and beauty

20:39

and falling in love

20:41

with something that's very different than

20:44

I grew up with , and having that

20:46

as an animating force . Fabulous

20:49

, yeah , well put .

20:50

Yeah . Very well put and , um

20:52

, you know , there's so many things to so

20:55

many threads to take up here . Um

20:58

, one of the things that has really struck

21:00

me lately in teaching is

21:02

how , how good indigenous

21:05

people are at diversity , right

21:08

, um , it's something that we don't

21:10

do well , uh , with , in

21:12

spite of our language , in spite of our constitutional

21:15

reinforcements for religious

21:18

diversity or , you know , ethnic

21:20

and racial diversity , all

21:22

those kinds of buzzwords

21:26

don't do it as well as indigenous

21:28

peoples , you know . I mean , you

21:30

know , among the Haudenosaunee there

21:37

is something called the edge of the woods ceremony . I mean , they're really finely

21:39

attuned to welcoming people into their communities that

21:42

have entirely different languages , entirely

21:45

different worldviews , that live

21:47

like 50 miles away . You know

21:49

, I mean it's that kind of radical

21:51

diversity , because those

21:53

people over there , 50 miles away

21:56

, they know their deities

21:58

, they know their spirits and the , the

22:02

spiritual beings that reside in that

22:04

place , and whenever

22:06

somebody goes and visits , as we

22:08

always do , they

22:11

have to , as the Taradajo says

22:13

, wipe them down , really

22:16

address their sorrows

22:18

and their struggles , you

22:20

know , and all of those things that

22:23

we all carry with us . And

22:25

so the Edge of the Woods ceremony

22:27

, back in Boulder , colorado , that was one

22:29

of the things that really attracted me

22:32

to the Haudenosaunee , as an undergrad , that

22:34

, and Sandy Bigtree , but

22:37

we were , you know , that kind

22:39

of way of grappling with

22:41

the human condition as

22:43

people present themselves , as

22:45

people are in the world rather than as

22:48

they should be , or something which

22:52

you know I mean . It just becomes

22:54

much more enlivening

22:58

to have that kind of framework

23:00

to work in .

23:01

Well , when the earth identifies you through

23:04

your clanship , you know you

23:06

are the earth , the water you

23:09

belong to the water . You belong to the earth

23:12

. The earth is diverse and

23:14

it's forever changing . The water's shifting

23:17

Species move

23:19

and , you know , interact

23:22

with one another . So when you pay

23:24

attention and you're of the earth , diversity

23:27

is a natural way of being in the world

23:29

.

23:30

And that's what I realized

23:32

is the stuff of real

23:34

culture . Real cultures

23:36

are not just human

23:38

inventions . They're worked

23:41

out in very intimate

23:43

relationship with particular ecologies

23:46

and they don't

23:48

presume to universalize their

23:52

local relationship

23:54

, because they understand that

23:56

other places require different

23:59

edge of the . Did you say edge

24:01

of the village different ? You're having to negotiate

24:03

that edge instead of imposing it , and

24:37

I think , imposing your own

24:39

to the other , and I think that's

24:42

what Christianity did across

24:45

the globe when

24:48

it came , it had and it

24:50

was particularly devastating

24:52

in the Philippines , because we

24:55

quickly learned English

24:57

and , because

25:01

of our modern education

25:04

, had for its

25:06

official language English right

25:09

, and so the missionaries that would

25:11

come didn't have to learn

25:13

any of our indigenous languages . They

25:15

couldn't do that in Indonesia or

25:18

Malaysia , so

25:20

there was not even an attempt at translation

25:22

of trying

25:24

to see

25:27

how the

25:29

spirit of

25:33

Christianity could be incarnated

25:36

within this context

25:38

. There was no such , and so

25:41

the colonization of

25:43

Filipinos becomes rather

25:47

profound , very

25:50

deep , rather profound , very

25:53

deep . They say that the

25:55

Spaniards were more interested in

25:58

catechism , they

26:02

were not very

26:04

systematic , but

26:07

the states , the United States , the Americans , really , really built

26:10

in the colonial ideology

26:14

and the white supremacy within

26:17

our modern education system .

26:20

Absolutely and that's one of the reasons I mentioned

26:23

diversity , lily , is because , you

26:25

know , the Philippines are just

26:27

this radically diverse

26:29

place . Yes , culturally radically diverse place

26:32

, culturally radically diverse .

26:33

Over a hundred ethno-linguistic

26:35

communities .

26:37

It's amazing how do you navigate

26:39

all of that ? You know it must've been . There

26:42

were these protocols that were in place

26:44

before colonialism , before

26:47

the ? You know attempts at unification

26:49

, which I think you're still struggling with there , and I you know attempts at unification

26:51

, which I think you're still struggling with there . And you know

26:53

, I don't know , I don't know if you can tell

26:55

us a little bit about that , or there

26:59

must have been all of these .

27:01

Yeah , they were blood compact

27:03

. You know when they

27:06

would have peace treaties with each

27:08

other . There

27:10

has been a lot of inter-island

27:13

trading that was going

27:15

on even before

27:17

the coming of Spain . But

27:22

then , when you have an external

27:25

power , come in and

27:28

then impose

27:30

its own requerimiento right , impose

27:33

its own protocol

27:37

and say this is the only

27:39

way , then

27:41

it runs roughshod all

27:43

of this intricate

27:46

negotiations that

27:49

were already happening

27:51

with one another

27:53

. So

27:56

there was really no

27:58

one nation right . What

28:01

brought about the Philippines as

28:04

a nation state is the

28:06

resistance to

28:08

colonization distance

28:11

to colonization , and it becomes

28:13

a struggle today because now

28:16

you have Manila they're

28:19

talking about Manila , imperialism

28:21

right where you have

28:24

all of these ethno-linguistic

28:26

communities with their own diverse

28:31

ways of diverse

28:34

languages , diverse cultures

28:37

, and

28:48

having to have a nationalized identity that's premised on the most

28:50

urbanized , the center right , and the

28:52

rest become periphery pretty

28:55

much , and so the viability

28:58

of a nation state I question even

29:00

the viability of , because

29:04

all nation states have their own

29:06

internal minorities

29:08

.

29:09

Do you need help catching up on today's topic or

29:12

do you want to learn more about the resources mentioned ? If

29:14

so , please check our website at podcastdoctrineofdiscoveryorg

29:19

for more information and , if you

29:21

like this episode , review it on Apple , Spotify

29:24

or wherever you listen to podcasts . And

29:26

now back to the conversation .

29:29

I think that , yeah , what we're talking about really is

29:31

the radical democratic if you like

29:33

, radical democratic framework

29:36

of indigenous peoples . Right , you know

29:38

that they're

29:40

, and this is what inspired the founding

29:42

fathers . Oddly enough , you

29:44

know and you see that here in

29:46

Haudenosaunee territory . So this

29:49

whole colonial history is this chock

29:51

full of these ironies you know

29:53

of . You know

29:55

, friendship , inspiration

29:58

, those kinds of issues .

30:01

It was radical when the first treaty

30:03

with the Dutch was called the Two Row Wampum

30:05

and it was that the

30:08

colonist ship would sail

30:10

down one row and then the

30:12

Haudenosaunee would row down the

30:14

other river in their

30:16

canoe and they would never interfere

30:19

with one another and respect

30:21

each other down

30:24

the river of life . And

30:27

the colonists see that as

30:30

well . You're going to stay out of our affairs and

30:32

you know we can do what we want and

30:34

we won't interfere with your way , not

30:37

even talk to you as a matter of fact . We'll just like

30:39

plow in there and take over

30:42

everything . The concept they

30:44

didn't understand the colonists was

30:46

the river of life . You're both sailing in parallel

30:48

, not interfering with one another , down the river of life . You're both sailing in parallel , not

30:50

interfering with one another down the river

30:52

of life . And if you don't

30:55

respect

30:57

being part of this force

30:59

, then you're missing the whole concept

31:01

of the two row . And that's

31:04

what the Edge of the Woods ceremony is about

31:06

. There's a certain protocol when you bring someone

31:08

as close as a few miles from your

31:11

territory into your territory

31:13

, because you're still , your languages are still a little

31:15

different , you have different ecosystems

31:18

and you're not interfering with theirs

31:20

. They're not interfering with you . So there's protocol

31:22

when you meet and talk right but

31:24

you have respect for the woods .

31:26

I mean , you know the woods are the the basis

31:29

of that relationship or you have respect

31:31

for the water of the river

31:33

of life , like Jim was talking about , right

31:35

, so the water , we have to have

31:37

this . There are certain kind of universals

31:40

sort of built into this in a way , but

31:42

they're not ideological , ideological

31:45

frameworks , and

31:47

I kind of wanted to pick up on that , jim

31:50

, because your work on

31:52

pushing back against white

31:55

nationalism , white Christian supremacy

31:58

, has been really

32:00

inspirational to me and

32:07

I think it's of my graduate students as

32:09

a kind of setup here . One of my graduate students

32:11

last semester came in with

32:13

a shocking statistic that

32:15

it's men like us , white cisgender

32:18

men like us that

32:20

are committing suicide at

32:22

higher rates than any

32:24

other ethnic racial

32:27

group . That is , 60 and above

32:29

. Right , that's us . So I mean

32:32

know it's , it is personal , you

32:34

know , and I'm I'm wondering you

32:37

know how you work with that in

32:39

your , in your work in the classroom

32:41

?

32:42

uh , you know , and uh , in the neighborhood

32:44

, yeah , so the

32:46

what you're saying about the edge of

32:48

the woods ritual ceremony

32:50

original diversity I would call

32:52

it biodiversity is what I'm

32:54

learning that

32:56

indigenous folk understood

32:59

that the more than human world was already

33:01

modeling how to handle diversity

33:03

and you needed to learn

33:06

from that and collaborate with

33:08

that , and that's exactly

33:10

what I now try to do with Christianity

33:12

. So , yeah , I'm a cisgendered white

33:14

guy and , on some days , a Christian . Some

33:18

days Christianity

33:20

is 45,000 denominations

33:24

on the face of the planet right now

33:26

. So what is Christianity

33:28

? Who says ? And I'm

33:30

not particularly interested in preserving

33:33

Christianity per se . I

33:35

am interested in preserving

33:38

the memory that Christianity

33:40

encodes in its root , which

33:43

is actually not Christian but

33:45

Jewish , and

34:15

the memory that Judaism encodes in its root , which is not particularly place , which are valid

34:17

there but not universalizable

34:20

and not valid elsewhere

34:22

, and to push for

34:24

a Christianity that would recover

34:27

down in there , back behind

34:29

there , its own indigenous

34:32

roots that

34:34

have their own wonderment

34:37

and their own incredible beauty

34:39

, like the Sabbath Jubilee tradition

34:41

of learning

34:44

from the land , when Moses

34:46

led the crew out from Egypt and

34:49

they had to relearn

34:51

how to be human and did so

34:53

in relationship to Midianite . Pastoral

34:55

nomads learned to eat

34:57

aphid defecation that's

35:00

called manna in Hebrew Aphids

35:03

are scale insects that eat tamarisk

35:05

leaves and poop 130%

35:07

their body weight every hour . That puddles

35:10

at the base of the tree that is scooped

35:12

up by Arab Bedouin today in the area

35:14

and called man . It's

35:16

a carbohydrate to keep you alive

35:18

. And so for 40 years

35:20

they were having empire

35:23

and urban aggression

35:26

gradually debrided

35:29

out of them and relearning the

35:31

land through their herd animals and

35:34

only in that way sort

35:36

of re-indigenizing

35:39

into the

35:41

area there

35:43

but that's only valid

35:46

there and then

35:49

joining up when they eventually

35:51

crossed the Jordan River from east

35:53

to west , with rebellious

35:55

Canaanite peasants who were fleeing the

35:57

city-state systems on the Mediterranean seaboard

36:00

. And so they become this very mixed

36:02

thing called Israel

36:05

, and the L part of the name is

36:07

a Canaanite high god , a storm god

36:09

, a god of water , like

36:11

Sandy was talking about , and

36:14

the Sabbath jubilee tradition

36:17

that's elaborated out of all that

36:19

wilderness wandering experience

36:21

probably was dictated

36:24

to them by the rains , the rains

36:26

that come and end the summer

36:28

drought , regularly

36:31

in September and October , celebrated

36:34

in the Feast of Sukkot , the Feast of Booths

36:36

, which is a rain ceremony , originally

36:38

longing for

36:40

the Mediterranean storms to blow

36:43

off the Mediterranean and end

36:45

the Siroccoan drought coming up from

36:47

the Hejaz in Saudi Arabia , coming

36:50

up from the Hejaz in Saudi Arabia

36:52

, and they do that regularly for

36:55

about six years at

36:57

a time , sometimes seven years , and

37:00

then they go AWOL . It's like the rains say to the human community

37:02

there we know you need us

37:05

for your small-scale

37:08

agriculture and your animal life

37:10

, so we'll come regularly , we'll cooperate

37:12

with you , but every seventh year

37:14

or so we're going to do our own thing . We're going

37:16

to go and be on our own

37:18

rhythm and time and cycle and

37:21

you'll have to deal with that by

37:23

returning to

37:26

a much more vulnerable relationship

37:28

with the land , and then we'll come back and

37:30

cooperate with you again for another six years

37:32

. So this seven , this

37:34

emphasis on seven days , seventh month

37:36

, seven years , may

37:38

well have been something the

37:40

original folk there learned from

37:42

the rain . So it's that kind of stuff

37:45

that I try to now

37:47

teach in the seminary

37:49

and again to awaken astonishment

37:52

but also to say but that only

37:55

applies there . And

37:57

if Christianity is going to go elsewhere

37:59

, what it has to do is listen

38:01

to the people who know their elsewheres

38:04

, know the

38:06

codification , the language , the culture

38:08

, the deities , as you said , phil

38:10

, of that place . The

38:13

woods are different from the savannah

38:15

and you

38:17

don't have permission to

38:20

enter into another space until

38:22

you ask the people who know

38:24

that space and then , even

38:26

if you get permission , you need to learn

38:28

the beauty , the spirituality

38:32

, the creatures that

38:34

are there .

38:35

Well , I love Michigan and

38:38

and you know , the

38:40

urgency of our moment is to

38:42

protect the water , and

38:46

I grew up

38:48

loving the lakes and the Great Lakes

38:51

and being fearful of them

38:53

and all that sort of thing . So

38:56

what you're saying really resonates with me as

38:58

a Michigander as well , really

39:05

resonates with me as a Michigander as well . I think you're uniquely . Both of you are teaching

39:07

very powerful topics , really demonstrating the

39:09

value of religious studies

39:11

in different kinds of ways and

39:13

, to speak to the urgency of our moment

39:15

as well , I've always felt , and

39:19

with a greater sense of

39:23

longing in a way , that

39:25

we need to protect the Great Lakes , we

39:27

need to protect those waters

39:29

. That's what we have , that's our responsibility

39:33

, and what

39:35

you're both saying in different ways , is kind

39:37

of like how

39:40

we , in history of religions and theology

39:42

, can participate in that work

39:45

, what

39:47

it means to be a water

39:50

protector just

39:52

where we are , and

39:56

I think that's something we share

39:58

because we're also , you know , among

40:01

the Great Lakes here in New York State .

40:03

It's difficult , though , when you're entering

40:05

, like a Christian community . The first

40:07

time I visited Phil's

40:09

parents' cottage up at Crystal Lake

40:11

. We're driving up there and I'm excited

40:14

you know , anticipating this to see

40:16

this beautiful lake they're all talking about , and

40:18

as we're getting into the access roads

40:21

, one is called Seychem Court , and

40:23

then there's Ongweonwe , which is our

40:25

word for the real people , and

40:27

so we're driving down and already I'm like

40:30

offset right . And then there's one mansion

40:32

after the next mansion , log cabin , it's

40:34

all varieties on the beautiful , beautiful

40:37

access we reach the family

40:39

. You know , log cabin it's the

40:41

most modest , little you modest

40:43

little lodging on the entire

40:45

lake but it's beautiful . But you know

40:47

I'm

40:55

already set back and it's so hard to talk about anything once you

40:57

go through that entry . There's there's no really

41:00

welcoming

41:02

you and respecting who . You are

41:04

coming into such a place . You have

41:06

to adapt coming into that place . And

41:08

I felt all of that . You know

41:11

, just with that first little drive

41:13

like

41:24

kit log cabin that still stands there .

41:25

It's like one bedroom , you know a loft . It's probably , I don't know , 300 , like 400

41:28

square feet right the year you were born yeah

41:30

, right . So it was like I've been going up

41:32

there my whole life , but now

41:34

it's surrounded by mcmansions . You know

41:36

like you know you've got because it's such a

41:38

beautiful lake . The Frankfort

41:41

area is a lovely place

41:43

, but you know , our little

41:45

log cabin still sits there . You

41:47

know , I'm sure our neighbors hate us , but

41:50

you know it's well kept . But

41:52

it was originally this Disciples

41:55

of Christ camp that

41:57

was given to them by the railroad

42:00

, you know just to kind of locate this in

42:02

a way right , you know , right

42:04

between in the kind of interlocking

42:07

between Lake Michigan

42:09

and Crystal Lake . So

42:11

since then

42:14

things have developed , but the camp

42:16

remains , even though , for

42:18

example , the disciples have

42:21

repudiated the doctrine of discovery

42:23

. I find that nobody

42:25

seems to know what that means in

42:28

our little world .

42:29

Or really care .

42:30

Or really cares , because it just sort

42:32

of interrupts the

42:34

. You know it's a little like hey , you

42:36

get off my cloud . You know , remember the

42:38

old Rolling Stones song

42:41

, you know , it's like , it's like don't mess

42:43

with my utopia . You know , and

42:45

it's been interesting , having gone

42:47

up there my whole life , to see

42:50

this arc of these beautiful

42:52

lakes , you know , and the things that

42:54

they've gone through . But then also

42:56

the people , just just I

42:58

mean they're probably liberal

43:01

, well-meaning people , you

43:03

know , as opposed to many of the other

43:05

rural counties in

43:07

upstate Michigan

43:11

, but still they just

43:13

don't have a clue .

43:14

They're so content with their

43:16

beautiful lakeside cottages . They're

43:19

beautiful lakeside cottages

43:21

.

43:21

Yeah , and it's a challenge , because I

43:23

think the form of Christianity that you're

43:25

talking about is just so

43:28

foreign to them . But

43:35

on the other hand , their idea of Christianity is dying . Like I said , we go

43:38

to my parents' church in

43:40

East Lansing and they're considering

43:42

selling it , you know , because

43:45

nobody's attending , nobody's coming

43:47

there anymore . So

43:49

even in the face of this kind of

43:51

inevitable death that

43:53

Christianity is going through in

43:55

many denominations , there's

43:57

not this sense that did we

44:00

get something wrong ?

44:04

there's not this sense that . Did we get something wrong or you

44:07

know ? No , I'd like to clarify . We went to that church once in

44:09

10 years to be with your parents .

44:09

We don't know yes , and now , and and there was a transgender

44:12

woman that was the pastor at the

44:14

, at the church , and my parents

44:16

, who are in their 90s , are are

44:18

just like they're , they're , they're

44:20

. They had to sit us down and say , now

44:23

, this is not the church you grew up in

44:25

, phil . And then they said we

44:27

have a transgender pastor . And

44:29

then Sandy and I said we want to go .

44:32

Yeah , it's like hallelujah

44:34

right let's break this thing

44:36

apart .

44:38

Yeah , yeah , yeah . Well , I

44:40

often say and I think Lily should weigh

44:43

in here quickly too I often say that

44:46

I think history would have been

44:48

better off without Christianity traditions

45:02

. There are more dead bodies at the feet of Christianity than any other major world religion

45:05

on the planet . Other world religions , once indigenous religious

45:07

traditions , get gathered up to

45:09

serve an urban elite

45:12

that is bent on aggression . They

45:15

also have participated in

45:17

all kinds of domination

45:19

, violence , genocide , but

45:21

Christianity , I think , takes

45:24

the prize at this point

45:26

in time .

45:28

And maybe the most insidious . So

45:30

sneaky , yeah , most

45:32

insidious . They're so sneaky about

45:35

it and brutal at the same

45:37

time .

45:38

So I teach that the Bible is the most dangerous

45:40

book on the planet . It's authorized

45:42

more genocide , enslavement

45:45

, rape , pillage and plunder than any other

45:47

book . And if you're going to be a Christian , the

45:49

first thing you've got to do is learn that history

45:52

, own it , understand it , be

45:55

repulsed by it , be humiliated

45:57

or humbled by it , and figure

46:00

out what then to do . Coming

46:02

out the other side of that kind of deep

46:05

work and it's not just a matter of processing

46:07

it in your head , it's a matter of letting it down

46:09

in your belly and into your body , so

46:11

that you are horrified and

46:14

deeply disturbed by

46:16

it all in relationship

46:18

to some group of people who've suffered

46:20

the other side of it . All in relationship to some group of people

46:22

who've suffered the other side of it , because

46:27

until it gets social in relationship , it's just an idea and the reality

46:29

is the trauma is all around us

46:31

, up inside us too . Like

46:33

Bill was saying , now

46:35

white men , particularly

46:39

working and lower middle class

46:41

men , are face to face

46:43

with their utter emptiness , white

46:45

supremacy having given them nothing

46:48

to be proud of or

46:50

to be astonished by . And

46:53

what do they do ? There's

46:57

no way to communalize

46:59

anything worthy . I

47:02

think that's right .

47:03

And grief is always seen as

47:05

a weakness in this culture

47:07

and Christianity

47:10

. It

47:18

shows a weakness in your faith if you're depressed , or it's just a no-win situation

47:20

.

47:20

Maybe you could talk a little bit about white

47:22

Christian nationalism in the Philippines

47:24

as well , because we

47:27

know that . I mean it's on the rise

47:29

everywhere , you know . But one

47:33

of the things I like to tell my students is that

47:35

if you don't understand religion and you don't

47:37

understand the history that Jim is

47:39

talking about , then

47:42

you really don't know what's going on in the world

47:44

right now . You know , I mean it's

47:46

just literally everywhere . I

47:49

mean yesterday we

47:51

went by a pickup

47:53

truck that was belching smoke

47:55

. You know , and that's a symbol

47:58

of , you know , the apocalypse . I mean

48:00

somebody embracing

48:02

this kind of apocalyptic

48:04

idea of you

48:07

know the world is going to end , so let's

48:09

make it end sooner , sort of thing , right

48:12

? And I think

48:14

you know there's so many indicators

48:16

of how white

48:18

Christian extremism , nationalism

48:21

, is expressing itself . I

48:24

wonder if you can wade

48:27

in on what's happening in the Philippines

48:29

as well .

48:31

Yeah , there are so many threads that I

48:34

wanted to jump in on . But

48:36

yeah , there is this

48:38

notion in the Philippines that we don't have

48:40

racism there just

48:43

because we're all brown skin

48:45

. You know , it's not your

48:47

typical white

48:50

settler colony like Australia

48:53

, for example , or the

48:55

US , but I

48:59

actually wrote a piece

49:01

on it questioning that

49:03

notion

49:07

that there's no racism Because

49:09

our racism is through

49:12

anda-vis

49:14

, our indigenous people , and

49:56

it's more in Kuwait in the sense that it's the civilizational supremacy that

49:58

is embedded in the discourse of progress

50:01

and development and

50:03

modernity . So what is happening

50:06

throughout the Philippines now

50:08

is all the

50:13

indigenous places are being turned

50:15

into tourist places

50:18

, places

50:27

and like , for example , in my home province , they're building a new Clark City . This

50:29

is where the US military bases used to be and

50:32

that is the homeland

50:34

of the Aita people

50:36

, and

50:39

so the Aita are saying we

50:41

used to roam these places freely

50:43

. Now they're saying we can't go

50:46

there . They confine us to these

50:48

marginal places . What

50:50

are we supposed to do ? And

50:53

so I'm really my heartbreak

50:56

is towards the way in which the

50:58

same colonial logic

51:00

that has been imposed on us

51:02

by foreign

51:05

rulers is being imposed

51:07

on our indigenous peoples .

51:10

Well , it's been suggested that

51:12

we talk a little more about the criminal

51:15

state , the violence against

51:17

criminals and how that plays

51:19

into a network

51:22

of Christian domination and civilizational

51:24

supremacy . And

51:26

I know , jim , you've been working in that area

51:28

of the

51:30

incarceration state and

51:36

you have to in your work and

51:38

I wonder how those two things you

51:40

know kind of kind of connect

51:43

. You know white

51:46

Christian supremacy and the , and

51:48

you know , in the overwhelming

51:51

numbers of incarcerations in

51:53

the African American population .

51:55

Yeah , be in effect a pre-police force militia , pre-police

52:28

force militia , armed to be on the

52:31

lookout for continuing to survive Native Americans and

52:34

runaway slaves , enslaved Africans , and our modern

52:36

day police force grows out

52:38

of that in this country and

52:41

this idea that a gun is

52:43

a prosthesis of white male

52:46

identity . I'm going to get my

52:48

figures wrong here , but overwhelmingly

53:08

the great percentage is white males and

53:11

it's a continuing legacy of being

53:13

on hunt for bodies that you're going

53:16

to criminalize , in fact

53:18

already have rendered

53:20

property

53:23

anybody who has dark skin

53:25

. Yes , you initially , once

53:27

you come over , clear native

53:30

folk off the land genocidally

53:32

, either by killing them , infecting

53:34

them or pushing them west , and

53:36

then reach into Africa and pull over the new

53:38

labor force that you shackle . But

53:41

you also work with language

53:43

so that black skin becomes a shackle

53:45

. You can't peel off if you get the iron

53:47

shackle off , and then

53:49

you monitor it with a gun on

53:52

the part of all the white males , and

53:54

that continues to be

53:56

the valid form

53:59

of enslavement in our culture

54:01

. The Netflix video

54:03

13th runs through the

54:06

way . The 13th Amendment eliminated

54:08

slavery except in

54:11

the case of committing a crime , and

54:13

then it continues and legitimizes

54:15

slavery in that instance

54:18

. And so now , yeah

54:20

, you have , you know

54:22

, the civil rights movement and black

54:24

power movements and

54:26

the eruption of cities in the North

54:28

in the 60s , black

54:31

folk emerging in a new public

54:34

dimension of assertiveness . And

54:36

the response is to take

54:38

the prison industrial complex

54:41

from what

54:43

it was doing in

54:45

1970 , which is incarcerating

54:47

300,000 folk , to incarcerating

54:50

2.3 million by the

54:52

early 90s , overwhelmingly

54:54

dark-skinned

54:56

bodies . And

55:04

you then create an industrial complex around it so that all kinds of folk , particularly

55:06

white folk , but not just white folk , have

55:08

their livelihood connected with

55:11

that serving that complex

55:13

of incarceration . And

55:16

so it's one more form of

55:18

capitalizing on black and brown bodies and , yes , red bodies here

55:20

, but also up in Canada . It's one more form of capitalizing on black and brown bodies

55:22

and , and , yes , red bodies here

55:24

, but also up in Canada , their

55:26

version of it that

55:29

continues the , the

55:31

economic exploitation . So it's , yes

55:34

, it's , it's criminalization

55:37

in the sense of , uh

55:39

, negatively perceiving

55:42

broadcasting , a cultural

55:45

habit of negatively perceiving dark

55:47

skin , but then

55:49

you make that yield economic benefit

55:51

through this great

55:53

big complex . One more

55:55

time , the other

55:57

thing I would say is that Christianity

56:02

and Judaism , both are

56:04

camped out on outlaws . All the major

56:06

figures were outlaw . Moses was

56:08

an outlaw . He had to go OG

56:10

from Egypt having , you

56:13

know , killed an Egyptian overseer

56:15

and the process of advocating

56:19

for a Hebrew slave . So

56:21

he has to exit

56:23

with a price on his head . John the Baptist

56:25

beheaded , jesus crucified

56:28

. All of the early the

56:31

inner circle didn't make it to old age

56:33

. Being criminal

56:35

with respect to the political state

56:38

that you are part of is

56:41

the vocation of a

56:43

legitimate Christianity . Now

56:45

, if you're in an indigenous situation , that's not

56:47

what you do . You learn . You sit

56:49

back and shut up and learn from the people

56:51

of the land , but if you're embedded in an

56:53

empire , then you better be resistant

56:55

.

56:56

That's exactly what happened in Haudenosaunee territory

56:59

. I mean , here they're consulting with

57:01

the founding fathers about the great law of peace

57:03

, another vision , another way of living , and

57:06

then Washington , during the Revolutionary

57:08

War , issues forth this scorched

57:10

earth campaign to burn out all

57:12

the crops and villages of the Haudenosaunee

57:14

, and they had to flee their homelands

57:17

. And then , when they return most

57:19

, all of their land is taken . And

57:22

then , when they return most , all of their

57:24

land is taken and it's been assigned to all the military

57:26

army right , the sergeants

57:28

, the generals and everybody

57:31

is allotted a piece of land . So

57:33

in being paid off with land

57:36

, washington establishes a military

57:38

state in Haudenosaunee land

57:40

. So that's the beginning of that

57:42

police force , right , and they're all

57:44

armed because they're soldiers . There's

57:49

a reason why we're the empire state Exactly .

57:51

Yeah yeah , maybe

57:54

it looks like Adam

57:56

has a question for you on this .

57:59

Yeah , I'm just reading

58:01

his message here . In

58:04

the Philippines , president Bombo Marcos

58:06

has continued the policies of the Tertus

58:08

War . Is there a civil

58:10

rights movement in the Philippines fighting

58:12

for abolition and against the prison

58:14

industrial complex there ? There

58:27

? I wish I was really up on the politics in the homeland in this

58:29

regard . I know that there are a number of progressive

58:31

movements and feminist women's movements . I

58:34

have been focused for

58:36

most of my work on

58:39

what is going on with Indigenous

58:41

peoples , and so I wish

58:43

I could speak to that .

58:45

To what degree are Indigenous folks

58:47

criminalized , babe ?

58:50

Oh yeah , Well , we have one of

58:52

the highest extrajudicial

58:58

killing rates

59:00

next to Brazil

59:02

or at some point I

59:05

think we have surpassed

59:07

Brazil in terms of the killing of indigenous

59:10

land defenders , and that is

59:12

still going on . We have Canadian

59:14

mining companies , we have all

59:17

kinds of corporations now

59:19

logging companies

59:22

that are in

59:24

indigenous territories , and

59:28

it's not stopping

59:30

. It's not

59:33

stopping . And a while

59:35

ago I wanted to introduce

59:37

a wrinkle in regard to Christianity

59:42

being a

59:45

curse , almost like

59:47

a curse on the planet . Well , in

59:49

the Philippines we actually

59:51

have some progressive

59:54

Jesuit

59:56

and other priests

59:59

who are working

1:00:01

with indigenous communities to

1:00:04

serve like some kind of a buffer

1:00:06

, because there's a lot of red tagging

1:00:09

, you

1:00:11

know , indigenous land defenders being

1:00:13

accused of being charged

1:00:15

with being communists , and

1:00:18

so some of the

1:00:20

progressive priests

1:00:23

put their bodies on the line

1:00:25

and serve

1:00:28

as some kind of a layer

1:00:30

of protection for

1:00:33

folks . They

1:00:36

themselves

1:00:38

became schooled in

1:00:41

the people's ways , so

1:00:44

that the education is not really

1:00:46

toward

1:00:48

missionizing right , but then

1:00:50

themselves having to

1:00:52

learn and to be tutored

1:00:55

by indigenous communities

1:00:57

. So

1:01:00

that's just something

1:01:03

that I know is is

1:01:05

laudable .

1:01:07

Yeah , yeah , being

1:01:09

a buffer , yeah . I think one

1:01:12

thing that we've come to appreciate

1:01:15

doing this work over the last 15

1:01:17

plus years on

1:01:19

the doctrine of discovery is how unifying

1:01:22

it is right . So you

1:01:24

know , in spite of the fact that we're visiting

1:01:27

this terrible legacy , these

1:01:29

awful events and

1:01:31

occasions throughout history

1:01:33

, I think

1:01:36

you know that you

1:01:38

know one of the signs of hope

1:01:40

following your

1:01:42

little wrinkle there , lily , is

1:01:46

that you know it does bring us together

1:01:49

in a variety

1:01:51

of ways around a common trauma

1:01:54

, common issue . Some

1:01:56

of us are more aware of it than others , some

1:01:59

of us feel it more keenly than others

1:02:01

, and it's

1:02:04

not always comfortable in our conferences

1:02:06

, but it's always . There's a lot

1:02:09

of energy , there's a lot of commitment

1:02:11

. You know people are understanding this message

1:02:15

and I want

1:02:17

to thank you both . You're

1:02:20

one of the kind

1:02:22

of power couples I think of

1:02:25

that are doing work across

1:02:28

a kind of vast array of topics and

1:02:30

issues in the history

1:02:33

of religions and in indigenous

1:02:35

studies , and I really appreciate you

1:02:37

both , I think for

1:02:39

both of us really appreciate this conversation

1:02:42

and just

1:02:44

thank you , thank you . Thank

1:02:47

you for having us For sure , the

1:02:50

kind of power couples

1:02:52

I think of in that

1:02:54

are doing work across , you know kind

1:02:57

of vast array of topics and issues

1:03:00

in in the history of religions and

1:03:02

and in indigenous studies , and

1:03:04

I really appreciate you both , I

1:03:07

think , for both of us really appreciate

1:03:09

this conversation and

1:03:12

just thank you , thank

1:03:14

you .

1:03:15

Thank you for having us .

1:03:19

The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett

1:03:21

and Jordan Lone Colon . Our

1:03:23

intro and outro is social dancing music

1:03:25

by Oris Edwards and Regis Cook . This

1:03:28

podcast is funded in collaboration

1:03:30

with the Henry Luce Foundation , syracuse

1:03:32

University and Hendricks Chapel and

1:03:34

the Indigenous Values Initiative . If

1:03:38

you like this episode , please check out our website

1:03:40

and make sure to subscribe .