1:59

and the Arctic enema. Yes,

2:03

a group of friends and I decided a few months

2:06

ago that we wanted to do a tough mutter and

2:08

one lady in the group is like long

2:10

nails like extremely not obstacle

2:13

horse or like any kind of exercise

2:15

type person and then she was doing some

2:17

research on it she's like you mean the

2:20

mud is not just a metaphor there's actual

2:22

mud on the course. Yes.

2:25

So there was actual mud on the course

2:27

but we did the 5k which had 12 obstacles

2:30

and they get you like down and dirty right away

2:33

crawling through mud under barbed wire

2:34

so real mud real

2:36

mud a lot

2:38

of the obstacles were very challenging so we

2:40

were feeling pretty good about ourselves getting

2:42

towards the end really happy

2:44

to be done you know some of us have bruises

2:47

and blood and you know

2:49

we're starting to get pretty tired but

2:52

of course the last three obstacles were

2:54

the ones that the most challenging for me there's

2:57

one called Everest which is basically

2:59

like this greased quarter pipe

3:01

I think it's like a 13 foot quarter pipe Wow

3:04

and you know you're supposed to get to the top of it

3:06

well the intimidating thing I mean one of the intimidating

3:09

things was you get there there's like a hundred

3:11

people in line

3:12

everyone's watching you try to get up yes

3:14

I managed to climb

3:16

cling scuttle my way turn

3:19

near the top and then there's people at the top who are extending

3:21

their arms down to try to like help pull

3:24

you over but you had to let go

3:26

of the rope with one hand to try to grab

3:28

another hand managed to get

3:30

over the wall then you have to climb down on this rope

3:32

ladder type thing on the other side so

3:34

I'm just like shaky like feeling all my

3:36

energy is depleted just from all that like

3:39

my hand is cramped from like hanging onto the rope

3:41

so tightly then we get to one called the

3:43

Arctic enema which is basically a

3:46

deep mud pit that is filled

3:49

with ice cold water I think like 34

3:51

degree water Fahrenheit so

3:53

they make you submerge yourself you're submerged

3:54

in this ice cold water it is

3:57

so cold it just sucks any of

3:59

your breath away So after all this the

4:01

final insult to injury right the final

4:04

obstacle is the electric shock.

4:06

That's right There's all these live wires

4:09

hanging and there's this mud pit

4:11

and then there's like a couple obstacles You have to go over

4:13

in the mud pit. So we get up there. We're watching a

4:15

few people go through There's

4:18

this one lady who gets halfway and there's kind of like

4:20

a break in the electrical field and

4:22

she's just screaming and she like Can't go

4:25

on You know people are trying to encourage her

4:27

to go and we're kind of waiting because we didn't want to

4:29

go with her in the Middle, you know how hard

4:31

are the shocks? Well, I was thinking like how bad

4:33

can it be? You know, I was actually standing there being judgmental,

4:36

which I feel bad about now because

4:38

I realized what it was like So

4:41

finally it's our term and there's kind of an

4:43

MC standing there and he turns to us

4:45

like oh you you ladies together We're like, yeah,

4:47

he's like you guys should all join arms.

4:50

We've only had one other group do that and it's a

4:52

real crowd pleaser

4:53

Okay

4:56

We all link arms step

4:59

in and the first electric shock

5:02

hits and I wasn't thinking

5:04

of how electric current travels

5:07

through people, you know it conducts Yeah,

5:09

and so it felt like we got four times

5:11

the shock because we're all like experiencing

5:13

each other's shocks So

5:16

instantly we drop arms every man

5:18

for himself trying to get through So

5:21

most of us get through except for my sister

5:23

autumn falls down like

5:25

paralyzed Her amygdala is

5:27

like this is a life-and-death situation

5:30

and she just can't get out So

5:33

one of our friends kind of held up to try to

5:35

get her out So she leans over to grab

5:37

autumn and her butt is in the air

5:40

and she's getting shocked like multiple times It

5:42

looks like she's twerking

5:45

She's yelping. I mean the shock

5:47

that really I don't know it felt really

5:49

strong to me I kind of had a feeling I

5:51

could have a heart attack in here. I literally felt

5:53

the shock like in my heart

5:55

Autumn your sister. She

5:57

is stuck in there in fight or flight

5:59

crutches

5:59

low underneath the wires. She's like laying

6:02

flat on her belly, like unable to

6:03

move. So you guys had to pull her out.

6:05

So we had to pull her out. Yes, I was probably

6:08

a bad sister because I was thinking, like, I'm going to try

6:10

to get her out without getting shocked myself,

6:12

whereas our friend Irene was like, taking it in

6:14

the

6:14

butt. You're

6:16

thinking, love you, Autumn. See

6:18

you at the beer tent. Good luck.

6:21

Yeah,

6:21

it was pretty intense. So we

6:24

finally, like, all stumbled through to the other side.

6:26

And that's the end of the race. And then,

6:29

like, a bored looking volunteer gives us

6:31

this headband

6:31

covered in mud. Great

6:34

job. Here's your headband. They didn't say great

6:36

job. They're like here.

6:38

And then, of course, you're

6:40

covered in mud, soaking wet. We were very

6:42

thankful to get showers that day. I think it

6:44

took three hair washes to get the

6:46

mud out of my hair. And like a week

6:48

later, we were still finding dirt in

6:51

our ears and still suffering

6:53

bruises. Tough

6:55

mothers at the Tough Mudder.

6:58

We want to give some quick shout outs to folks

7:00

in our community who are running races and reporting

7:02

back and sharing photos. So Angie, what do you

7:05

got for us? Yes, this comes from Diane.

7:07

She says, Cedar City half marathon. Thank

7:10

you, MTA coach Jen, for pushing me through these

7:12

past 12 weeks. I finished second

7:14

place in my age

7:15

group.

7:17

Nice. And we'd like to say congrats to a longtime

7:19

listener, Steve Plummer from the UK.

7:22

I actually got to hang out with Steve and his wife Beer

7:25

Lover's Marathon earlier this year in

7:27

Belgium. Steve just ran his 50th

7:30

marathon at the Richmond Run Fest

7:32

in the UK. And he finished in 4-23-06 and is

7:34

a very hot day at

7:38

the Richmond Run Fest. In fact, this is from

7:40

a Runner's World article. The headline

7:42

said, race director cancels marathon

7:45

with 1,000 runners still on the course.

7:48

Due to extreme heat at the Richmond Run Fest,

7:50

water tables were empty and 10 runners were

7:53

hospitalized. Thankfully, no one died. Temperatures

7:55

reached 90 degrees Fahrenheit. Yikes,

7:58

that sounds miserable. Congrats. Congratulations Steve

8:00

on Marathon number 50, it sounds like a very

8:03

memorable one. That's for

8:05

sure. And also congrats to our client

8:07

Kofo who finished the Richmond Runfest.

8:10

She said, please to have finished Richmond Runfest

8:12

marathon in London. The joys of the

8:14

British weather meant that an autumn race ended

8:16

up in high summer temperatures. I

8:19

managed to finish before the course closure

8:21

and I'm pleased to add the 14th marathon

8:23

medal to my collection. Shout

8:25

out to MTA coach Nicole, the best anyone

8:28

could ask for. She always has my

8:30

back and creates awesome kick-ass

8:32

training plans. We'd like to say also

8:34

congrats to coach Athena on our team who

8:36

finished the Pikes Peak marathon in Colorado.

8:38

This is a beast of a marathon. And

8:41

finally we got an awesome shout

8:43

out here to one of our longtime clients,

8:46

JJ. She was able to qualify for Boston

8:48

at the Revel Big Cottonwood Marathon

8:51

and this is after a 10 year journey

8:53

to earn that BQ. She finished in 332.45. She

8:57

says, so I know this post is a little late but I

8:59

finally qualified for Boston at the Revel

9:01

Big Cottonwood Marathon. It's

9:04

taken me 27 marathons to BQ. My

9:07

first marathon in 2013 was five hours and 12 minutes. So

9:11

I want everyone to know that sometimes it takes 27 marathons

9:14

and years and years to reach a goal. And

9:16

that just because it's tough, that doesn't mean you should stop

9:19

trying. We love endurance running

9:21

because it's hard. So don't let the difficulty

9:23

stop you from putting in the

9:24

work. Wow. Thank you for sharing

9:27

that story with us, JJ. And super

9:29

congrats on qualifying for Boston. Yeah,

9:31

sometimes it just takes quite a few

9:33

marathons and quite a few races and attempts because,

9:36

you know, life gets in the way and other stuff can happen.

9:38

Angie, you can probably identify with that. It took quite

9:40

a few races for you.

9:42

Yeah, it took 25 marathons and

9:44

trying to think how many years. Yeah, almost

9:46

seven years. Well, congrats. Everyone

9:49

out there taking action in your health and fitness. Hey,

9:51

by the way, come out and meet me at the Boulder-a-thon

9:54

in Boulder, Colorado. I'm going to be doing a live

9:56

podcast interview at the Expo

9:59

with Ultra Runner.

9:59

Scott Juric, October the 7th,

10:02

it'll be at 2 p.m. right downtown.

10:04

If you want to sign up for one of their signature races

10:07

you can use the code MTA20 for 20% off

10:10

over at bolderthon.org. And

10:12

of course I'll also be at the Richmond Marathon this year

10:14

and it's gonna be a huge year in Richmond,

10:16

Virginia. I'll be there doing a live event at

10:18

the Expo and of course

10:21

MTA meetup after the race. And check

10:23

out who also is gonna be at the Richmond

10:25

Marathon this year. Martinez Evans

10:28

from Run Slow AF.

10:29

We just had him on the podcast. Another

10:32

mother-runner podcast folks will be there.

10:34

The November Project will be there. Lindsey

10:37

Hine from I'll Have Another podcast

10:39

will also be there. So a huge year.

10:41

The Richmond community just really embraces

10:44

this race. It's a nonprofit. There's

10:46

tons of people along the course out there. There's

10:48

neighborhoods that really go all out. There's junk food

10:51

stations and a pickle juice stop. And the

10:53

race organizers do an awesome job. This

10:55

is a top 25 Boston qualifier.

10:57

It's mostly flat. There are some rolling hills.

11:00

Great for first-timers. You can do the full, the

11:02

half, or the 8k. Hey, whatever your jam

11:04

is. And let me know if you're gonna be there. RichmondMarathon.org.

11:08

Alright, well on this episode we're talking

11:10

with Brad Stolberg. I think this

11:12

is probably his third time on the podcast. He

11:14

just keeps writing these really cool

11:17

books. We always love talking to him. He's a very

11:19

thoughtful guy. His new book is called Master

11:21

of Change. How to excel when everything

11:23

is changing, including you. So,

11:26

Angie, what else can we tell people about Brad Stolberg?

11:28

Well, Brad Stolberg researches, writes, and

11:31

coaches on health, well-being, and sustainable

11:33

excellence. He's also the best-selling

11:35

author of The Practice of Groundedness. He's

11:38

also co-author of the book Peak Performance.

11:41

He regularly contributes to the New York Times.

11:43

He's on the faculty of the University of Michigan's

11:45

Graduate School of Public Health. He

11:48

works with executives, entrepreneurs,

11:50

physicians, and athletes on their mental skills

11:52

and overall well-being, and lives

11:54

with his family in Asheville, North Carolina.

11:57

So in this interview you're gonna hear how we get

12:00

change wrong as humans and

12:02

since change especially

12:06

as a runner because you're

12:23

the

12:26

book Master of Change. Brad welcome

12:28

back to the podcast. Hey it's great to be

12:30

here thanks for having me. So I really

12:33

loved your last book The Practice

12:34

of Groundedness and I kind of thought

12:36

like this one's gonna be good obviously because you're

12:38

an excellent writer and I was really totally

12:41

blown away it was just what I needed

12:43

to hear at the time and I think it's really

12:45

gonna resonate with our audience.

12:47

So kind of go into what inspired you

12:49

to write this book. I'd

12:50

say that the biggest inspiration

12:53

was personal for this one

12:56

as is so many of my books but

12:58

in the last five years I've experienced

13:00

a whole lot of pretty significant

13:02

changes some good and some not

13:05

so good. I moved across the country

13:07

I quit my corporate job to go full-time

13:10

as an author. My last book The Practice

13:12

of Groundedness sold really well. I became

13:15

a parent for the first time. I became a parent

13:17

again for the second time. I also

13:19

had a chronic condition developed in my leg

13:22

that essentially forced me out of running

13:24

which had been just an enormous part of my identity

13:27

for a long period of time. I had orthopedic

13:29

surgery to try to solve the problem and

13:31

I'd say it solved it halfway so I can

13:34

do more than I would have been able to

13:36

but I still can't compete. I still can't race like I used

13:38

to. So yeah just a lot

13:40

of changes in my own life and then of course

13:42

there's the massive societal

13:45

change that we've all lived through

13:47

over the last couple of years which is the coronavirus

13:49

pandemic and I distinctly remember being

13:52

in the kitchen on my wife's iPad one

13:54

morning in 2021 early on in

13:56

the year reading all of these headlines about

13:58

when we're gonna get back to normal. normal. And

14:01

something about that phrasing just rubbed me the

14:03

wrong way. I wasn't sure what

14:05

and it led to the kernel of the idea that

14:08

became this book.

14:09

Yeah, like what is normal? And I think

14:11

that's what really came out to me is like, we

14:14

do get change wrong. And I really

14:16

didn't realize how I got it so

14:18

wrong until I was reading just

14:20

in the introduction. I've known I've fallen

14:22

into the mindset of trying to get back

14:24

to where I was before. And

14:26

that's one of the things you talk about. Maybe you can kind

14:28

of talk about how we get change wrong, and

14:31

how that holds us back from actually thriving

14:34

through change.

14:35

The biggest mistakes that we make in the midst

14:38

of change are trying to avoid

14:40

it, resisting it when it's there,

14:43

sacrificing all agency. So just

14:45

throwing our hands up and saying, Well, there's nothing I can

14:47

do. And then most commonly is trying

14:49

to get back to where we were before

14:51

the change or trying to get back to stability

14:54

too fast. And these are no fault

14:56

of our own. This is due to a long standing

14:59

model for change. That is what we

15:01

all grew up with. And it's called homeostasis.

15:04

And it essentially describes change as a pattern

15:06

of order or stability, disorder

15:08

or change, and then trying to

15:10

get back to stability as fast as you can.

15:14

And homeostasis is a model inherently

15:16

says that change is bad, we should try to avoid

15:18

it, resist it, and then we try to get back to normal. This

15:20

has been the prevailing way that folks have thought about

15:23

change for the last couple hundred years. But

15:25

more recently, in the research community,

15:27

scientists stepped back and they said, you know, it's

15:29

actually not an accurate model for change.

15:32

When you look at individuals and organizations,

15:35

even entire cultures that really flourish

15:37

in the midst of change, it's true that

15:39

they crave stability, but they achieve

15:41

that stability through change. And

15:43

they coined this term allostasis, which

15:46

describes change as a cycle of order or

15:48

stability, and disorder change. So

15:50

so far, it's the same, but the key difference is the last

15:52

phase is reorder. So yes,

15:55

you arrive at stability, but that stability is

15:57

somewhere new. And I think that

15:59

the etymology of these two

16:01

words tells the whole story. So

16:03

homeostasis comes from the Latin root

16:06

homo, which means same and stasis,

16:08

which means standing. So it says that you

16:10

achieve stability by staying the same. And

16:13

allostasis comes from the Latin root alo,

16:16

which means change, and then stasis,

16:18

which means standing. So it says that

16:20

you achieve stability by changing.

16:23

And that has such an elegant double meaning, which

16:25

is like you can achieve stability through change.

16:28

And the way to do it is by changing, at

16:30

least to some extent.

16:31

I think that's so freeing because it is literally

16:34

impossible to get back to

16:36

the exact same thing again, like

16:38

change is life. And if you're not changing,

16:41

you're dead. So like the homeostasis

16:44

model is literally impossible because

16:46

we're never going to be that same person again.

16:48

That's

16:49

exactly right. And I think that while

16:51

this has so many implications for

16:53

all of our lives, for our professional components

16:56

of our lives, for the personal components of our lives, I

16:58

know of great interest to you and your listeners is the

17:00

athletic parts of our lives. And

17:03

I think that we so often get into

17:05

this trap of homeostasis as athletes.

17:08

And I think it comes to three core

17:10

areas. The first is when we have injuries,

17:13

and we try to get back to where we were before the injury.

17:15

And we try to do it really fast, often too

17:17

fast, or worse, we resist the

17:19

change altogether. We pretend that we're not injured, and

17:21

we try to train through it and we end up making dumb

17:24

mistakes. We don't adjust our training plan.

17:26

So that's one big area. The second big area

17:28

that all athletes experience is aging.

17:31

Even if you live in a bubble and you never get hurt, you're

17:33

going to age and aging is going to affect your

17:36

performance and your relationship with your body and

17:38

how it performs and how you participate

17:40

in the sport. And then the third big change

17:42

that we all go through our successes and failures.

17:45

So we conceive of ourselves as a runner that can

17:47

do X that can run under four hours,

17:49

under three hours, a 20 minute 5k, whatever

17:52

the standard is, they're all arbitrary. And

17:54

then we become someone that either did that or didn't

17:56

do it. And that can have a change to how we

17:58

see ourselves as an athlete.

18:00

That is so true because I think back

18:02

to times where I in my head, I'm

18:04

a certain or a marathoner, but

18:07

then I've gone through a period of injury and have

18:09

had to go through physical therapy and

18:11

like ease my way back. And then the reality

18:13

is that, you know, I'm not that marathoner

18:16

anymore. I am a whole different one.

18:18

Yeah, that's right. I think that you see that the athletes

18:21

that have the most sustainable long term

18:23

performance, they are very different

18:25

athletes at different points of their life. And

18:29

I think that there's something really beautiful

18:31

about that, that you say like, you know, what is the

18:33

running identity of Shaleen Flanagan

18:35

or Kara Gausscher, Meb Kiflesky, pick

18:37

your favorite American marathoner.

18:41

And it would depend on at what point

18:43

in time, sometimes it's a 10K runner or someone

18:45

on the track, other times it's a marathoner. Sometimes

18:48

it's someone that is not necessarily

18:50

performing that well by objective measures, but doing

18:52

great things for the sport off the road.

18:55

Other times they're really focused on what they're doing on

18:57

the road. But it's the sum of all these

18:59

unique identities that they've held over the course

19:01

of a career that ultimately make them the

19:03

athletes that they are.

19:05

I really like the framework of order, disorder,

19:08

reorder, that hero's journey

19:10

and that just met a narrative. There's so many, you

19:12

know, great movies and stories like really all

19:14

of them have that same pattern. Like

19:16

even the Bible has it, right? There's order in the garden

19:19

and there's disorder after Genesis chapter

19:21

three, and then it all ends in reorder.

19:23

So Angie, right now, maybe you're going through disorder

19:26

or you're going through reorder and you're running, which would

19:28

you think it is?

19:29

I think it's reordering, honestly.

19:31

Yeah, it

19:34

really is. The Franciscan

19:36

Friar, his work, I admire Richard Rohr

19:39

calls this the universal wisdom pattern.

19:42

Joseph Campbell calls it the hero's journey.

19:45

So like you said, the hero starts out at

19:47

home, and then they're called to the journey and

19:49

they go through this massive disorder. They leave

19:51

home, they face their demons, and

19:54

then they tend to come back home and they're in

19:56

some ways the same, but in other ways different. Yeah,

19:59

you

19:59

were talking.

19:59

talking about household names in terms

20:02

of runners like Shilane Flanagan, Kara

20:04

Goucher. We actually had Kara on the podcast earlier

20:06

this year. With all those runners whose

20:08

stories that we know, you can see the order,

20:11

disorder, reorder pattern in their

20:13

life because they've all dealt with injury and various

20:15

setbacks. Yeah, that's right. And

20:17

being able to navigate that cycle skillfully

20:20

is really the whole premise

20:22

of what I've been working on for the past couple

20:24

of years in the research and reporting and finally

20:27

writing of this book, which is it's one

20:29

thing to have this conceptual framing that,

20:31

hey, order, disorder, reorder. Like

20:33

we're not getting back to where we were. Homeostasis is

20:36

kind of old news. We need this more allostatic

20:38

view of change. Then of course, the next

20:40

question that everyone has is the question that I had is,

20:42

well, how do you navigate that cycle as

20:44

gracefully as possible? How do you work through the

20:46

disorder phase to get to reorder as

20:49

best you can?

20:50

Yeah, does it start with your mindset? I know in

20:52

the book you talk about being open to the flow

20:54

of life and I think the other one is expected

20:57

to be

20:57

hard. Yeah, speak to that person who's feeling

20:59

they're in a period of disorder right now. So

21:02

the key construct that the book explores is

21:05

this term that I coined called rugged

21:07

flexibility. And most

21:09

people hear these two words and

21:12

they think of them as diametrically opposed

21:14

opposites because when you're rugged, you're

21:16

strong, you're determined, you're robust,

21:19

you're durable, you're hard.

21:21

When you're flexible, you're soft, you're supple,

21:23

you bend really easily. And

21:25

what I found in my reporting in my research

21:28

is that individuals who are able to navigate

21:30

change really well, they're not rugged or

21:33

flexible, they're both rugged and flexible.

21:36

So they have this non-dual mindset that

21:39

in some ways they are very determined

21:41

and gritty and tough, but in other

21:43

ways, they're very adaptable and flexible

21:46

and smooth and soft. So I

21:48

think the start of this mindset is that when

21:50

we face change, we don't have

21:52

to think of ourselves just as rugged, just as

21:54

over controlling and fixing and staying

21:57

the same, nor do we need to think of ourselves

21:59

as just flexible. is just going with the flow.

22:01

We can be both of those things at the same time.

22:04

And you're right, the two big conduits

22:07

to a rugged and flexible mindset that

22:09

I explore in the book is this notion of first, just

22:11

accept that change is reality and

22:13

that you can be stable through change. You can't be

22:15

stable by avoiding change, but you can be stable

22:18

through change. And then the second

22:20

is this notion of really expecting

22:23

whatever it is that you're dealing with to

22:25

be challenging. There's a really interesting

22:27

shorthand equation that our mood

22:29

at any given point of time is a

22:32

function of our expectations and

22:34

our reality. More particularly,

22:36

it's our reality minus our expectations.

22:39

So the example I give to make this really

22:42

clear, just how profound it is

22:44

to have proper expectations is

22:47

actually a marathon. And I use this not just for runners.

22:49

So imagine that you're doing a marathon and

22:52

you expect mile 20 to feel easy.

22:55

Well, what happens if you do that? You get to mile 20,

22:57

you're going to drop out of the race. You're going to think something's horribly

23:00

wrong. Absolutely going to freak out. Whereas

23:03

if you're running a marathon and you expect mile 20 to

23:05

be hard and to be challenging when you get

23:08

there, it's still going to suck, but you're not going to

23:10

freak out as much. You're certainly not going to drop

23:12

out of the race. And on a good day, you might even

23:14

be pleasantly surprised. So same

23:17

mile of the race, same feelings in your body,

23:19

but one pathway you quit, the other

23:21

pathway you keep going, and it's purely based

23:23

on your expectation. And I think

23:25

so often we go into these challenging

23:28

periods and we have a slightly

23:31

too positive or too rosy expectation,

23:33

thinking like, well, think positive, be positive.

23:36

It's going to help me through. When in fact,

23:38

the research shows the opposite, that it's better

23:40

to have a slightly negative expectation

23:42

and to let yourself be pleasantly surprised. There's

23:45

this beautiful phrase that was coined

23:47

by the philosopher and psychologist

23:50

Victor Frankel called tragic optimism.

23:53

And what he says is that, yes,

23:55

we should be very accurate in

23:57

our expectations. And there is a lot of tragedy

23:59

in the world. life and he wasn't talking about running. He was

24:01

talking about things like loss, grief, pain,

24:04

suffering, and to be delusional about

24:06

those things does no good. You just suffer.

24:09

However, we can also be optimistic.

24:11

We can accept that life is inherently

24:14

full of hardship and challenge and struggle

24:16

and in spite of that, or maybe even because

24:19

of it, trudge forward with an optimistic attitude

24:21

nonetheless. And I think that's really what

24:23

it's about. It's about maintaining hopefulness

24:25

and optimism while at the same time not

24:27

becoming deluded by it and acknowledging

24:30

that there is a lot about life or

24:32

running or your job or whatever it might be that

24:34

is going to be hard and there are a lot of changes

24:36

that you are not going to be happy about happening.

24:39

And yet, you can accept them for what they are.

24:41

You can see them clearly and the work

24:44

of a mature adult is not falling into

24:46

nihilism and staying optimistic even

24:48

so.

24:49

I like it. Good stuff. Well,

24:51

I hope you've enjoyed this conversation thus far. Quick

24:53

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27:17

also enjoyed the part where you talk about how the brain,

27:19

as it's constructing its reality

27:22

in our experience, it puts more weight on

27:24

the very last thing that we experienced in the

27:26

process versus the whole thing. It's like when you

27:28

take your kids to the park when they're young and you say,

27:31

okay, it's time to go, and they don't wanna leave,

27:33

so they're mad, and they say, I didn't have any

27:35

fun at all. Yeah. Well,

27:37

okay, 10 minutes ago, you had a huge smile on your face. Bringing

27:40

it back to running, I have a theory

27:43

as to why more people enjoy marathon

27:45

running than running the mile.

27:47

The end of a mile sucks. Yeah.

27:50

You know, you're tasting blood in your mouth. If you run a mile

27:52

hard, that is, you're tasting steel

27:54

and metallic and blood in your mouth. You can hardly

27:56

breathe. There's no enjoying

27:59

the finish of a mile. mile, like the race is over

28:01

and you just sit in pain. Whereas running

28:03

a hard marathon, if you paste it right, you

28:05

know, the last minute or two, you can generally

28:07

realize, whoa, like this is what I'm doing. You can

28:10

really soak it in. And

28:11

you got the metal that they put on

28:13

you and the little aluminum jacket to keep you warm

28:15

and then the snacks. And like you

28:18

get that euphoria and that's what you hold on to. Whereas

28:20

at the end of a mile, it's just pain. Yeah, races

28:22

have done a good job of making the end of the

28:24

marathon a very fun experience. Cause

28:27

that's, that's what we remember. And then we think let's sign

28:29

up for another one, even though

28:31

it sucks so hard at mile 20. That's exactly

28:34

right. I just did

28:36

a, a tough mother this last weekend

28:38

with a group of friends and I was kind of contrasting

28:41

that to a running race, you know,

28:43

like a half marathon marathon. Um,

28:45

you know, because you do it often at a half

28:47

marathon marathon, you have that sense of elation, you

28:49

know, kind of coming into the finisher shoot and people

28:52

are cheering and there was an announcer

28:54

and you're just like, yes, I did this

28:56

and get the metal. People put it around your neck and

28:58

like, there's that whole journey you go through. But like

29:00

the tough mutter, they save the last three

29:02

obstacles are the worst in my opinion. You're

29:05

like, just come on this like electric shocks, feeling

29:07

like you might have a heart attack. And then some

29:09

board volunteer throws a headband at

29:11

you and you're like, that's it. I will

29:13

died. They

29:16

should read Brad's book. That's what they do. Exactly.

29:19

The thing have you come and keynote at the tough mutter. Yeah,

29:22

I got, I got all kinds of thoughts on tough mutter, but

29:25

that's, that's not the point of our conversation

29:27

today. You know, I think, I think

29:29

anything that gets people moving is good.

29:33

And if tough mutter is what it takes to get people

29:35

moving, that's great. And I think it's a very real

29:37

challenge. Uh, I think that running

29:40

a marathon seriously is, is tough

29:42

as it needs to be. And a lot of these other

29:44

things are just to me, like bravado or like,

29:47

I don't want to say fake toughness, but like running

29:49

through a quasi electrical field, it's

29:53

interesting, but I would argue like keeping

29:55

your head in the marathon at mile 22 is even

29:57

harder, but that's the elitist runner

29:59

in me. And I probably just offended some

30:02

people. So my apologies. I'm self-aware

30:04

that that is the elitist runner in me, even though I'm

30:06

not competing anymore. But in all seriousness,

30:09

ultimately, I think if you're moving your body and you're doing

30:11

it in community and you're challenging yourself and you're

30:13

enjoying it, then whatever you're doing is working

30:15

for you.

30:16

A hundred percent. And I always advise people,

30:18

don't make running your only thing because

30:21

something is gonna come along, life,

30:24

change, you know, all those things, injuries.

30:26

And if that is your only thing, it is gonna

30:28

really

30:28

throw you for a huge loop.

30:30

Ooh, nice segue to the second part of the

30:32

book. So this was one of my favorite

30:35

parts of the book anyways, a rugged

30:37

and flexible identity. And the

30:39

story I wanna tell first is

30:41

that of the speed skater, Niels van

30:43

der Poel. So van der Poel won

30:45

gold medals in the 5K and 10K in

30:48

the 2022 Winter Games, and he

30:51

shattered the world record. So he is

30:53

the best long-course speed skater to

30:55

ever step foot on this planet. And probably

30:58

will be for quite some time. However,

31:00

in the lead up to the 2022 games, van

31:02

der Poel felt that he was underperforming. And

31:04

he tried to identify what was driving this

31:07

and his training was really dialed in, he wasn't getting

31:09

injured, but he felt a lot

31:11

of fear every time that he stepped into

31:13

the speed skating oval. So then he asked

31:15

himself, well, why am I feeling this fear? And

31:18

what he found, what he realized is that

31:21

his entire identity was fused

31:23

to speed skating. So there was no Niels

31:25

van der Poel other than Niels van der Poel, the

31:27

speed skater. And because

31:30

of that, if he had a misstep, or

31:32

to your point, an injury, if any little

31:34

thing went wrong, it wasn't just

31:37

sorrow in the sport, it was his entire

31:39

life. Not his livelihood,

31:41

his life, his whole being was speed

31:44

skating. So he decided

31:46

to do something at the time that is pretty radical

31:48

for an Olympian, which is take

31:50

a normal weekend. So starting

31:53

on Friday evening, all the way to

31:55

Monday morning, his life had nothing to

31:57

do with speed skating.

31:58

That sounds like my weekend.

31:59

Then you're doing it right. He

32:02

went out for beer and pizza with his friends. He went

32:04

hiking. He started reading books. He got more involved

32:06

in his community. He developed

32:09

other sources of identity beyond just speed

32:11

skating. Paradoxically, that allowed him to perform

32:14

so much better because he was no longer

32:16

racing with the pressure of his entire

32:18

identity being tied to this thing. He

32:21

realized that he could even get injured and be

32:23

okay because he had other sources

32:25

of meaning in his life. The metaphor

32:27

I've come to use is to develop

32:30

an identity that is able to

32:32

be really rugged and flexible during change.

32:34

The first thing that we need to do is to think of

32:37

our identity like a house. If

32:39

you've just got one room in your house and

32:41

that one room floods, you're kind of screwed.

32:44

Whereas if you have a few other rooms in your house, even

32:47

if one room floods, you can go seek refuge

32:49

and have stability find an anchor in those

32:51

other rooms while the flood sorts itself out.

32:55

The rooms don't have to be equal size. You

32:57

don't have to spend the same amount of time in each room. You've

32:59

just got to have more than one. Sometimes

33:02

I talk to elite athletes about this. I'm like, well, I only have one room.

33:05

What do I do? It's like, well, you got to make an addition. No

33:07

difference than a house. When you outgrow

33:09

that one room or when it's not big enough

33:11

for all that you are, make an addition.

33:14

That can be so simple. That can be taking up gardening. It

33:16

doesn't matter what it is. It's just making

33:18

sure you never just identify

33:21

with one thing. In the example of running,

33:23

if you get injured, it becomes like this traumatic

33:25

event because the sole source of

33:27

your meaning is gone. In the case of parenting,

33:30

if your whole identity is taking care of kids,

33:32

well, then when your kids leave the house, you have this

33:34

empty nester syndrome.

33:36

Entrepreneurs, they have their whole identity

33:38

tied up in their work. Then it comes time to

33:40

retire. Their company doesn't work out. Well, then it's like,

33:42

well, who am I if not this thing?

33:44

I think it's just so important

33:46

to have multiple components to your identity.

33:49

I agree. I think if I can get real here,

33:52

the things that I was curious about when

33:54

I was researching this were first

33:56

and foremost, well, what about the tale

33:59

of the obsessive? genius. It

34:01

just has to go all in on this one thing.

34:03

And what I found is that

34:06

we tend to be told those stories because

34:08

they make for really entertaining television

34:10

and documentaries, but the vast

34:13

majority of people who achieve great success

34:15

do it more in the style of Niels van der

34:17

Poel. They actually have more

34:20

what researchers call complexity to their

34:22

identity. They have multiple rooms to their house.

34:24

The second thing is in just about every

34:26

case of catastrophic failure, we

34:29

see a complete fusion of

34:31

identity to pursuit. I think

34:34

of Elizabeth Holmes at Theranos, Lance

34:37

Armstrong, whatever you think of him now when he was

34:40

in peak asshole mode and I, you know, not

34:42

everyone feels this way, but I do because I know people

34:44

whose life he just ruined his

34:47

entire identity was cycling. So

34:49

first, you can be great at what you do without

34:52

tying your identity completely to it. Research

34:54

actually says you probably have a better chance of being great

34:56

at what you do. And second, you're less likely

34:58

to become a jerk if you have multiple components

35:01

to yourself. And I think both of those

35:03

things are really important for the

35:05

marathon runner that it's a big part of their

35:08

life and it's a big part of their community. I think that's

35:10

great. The caution is

35:12

from tying up too much

35:14

of yourself as being a runner. And

35:16

I know this firsthand, right? Like I was a big part

35:19

of the running community. I still am, even though I'm

35:21

not running competitively, I'm not pushing

35:23

myself anymore because my body won't let me. But

35:25

when I first realized that it's called

35:28

exertional compartment syndrome, what I have when I realized

35:30

like it was basically stopping me from

35:32

running, it was really disorienting. I remember

35:34

like feeling true shocks of panic

35:37

and anxiety just like walking down the street, seeing

35:39

other runners because I did well, if I'm not like

35:41

a runner, then what am I? Who am I? And

35:43

what I needed to do and what I ultimately did was zoom

35:45

out and actually say, you know, what's actually a

35:47

big part of my identity from this sport? It's

35:50

two things to moving my body and athleticism.

35:52

There are multiple ways to do that beyond running

35:55

and then it's community. And ultimately that helped

35:57

me stay rugged and flexible as I worked through this

35:59

injury.

36:00

So we've talked about identity. The third part of the book

36:03

is about action, rugged and flexible action.

36:06

That's right. And this

36:08

is around engaging with

36:10

change. So when you start

36:13

seeing change as this cycle

36:15

of order, disorder, reorder, and you

36:17

realize that change is just ever

36:19

present in our lives, well, then the question

36:22

becomes how do you stay in

36:24

conversation with it? How do you view change not

36:26

as something that happens to you, but as

36:28

something that you are participating in? And

36:30

I think here people tend to fall again

36:33

to these two kind of extreme

36:35

views when the answer I think is very much in

36:37

the middle. So some people say

36:39

that you should over control and

36:42

that you have all of this agency and you should

36:44

fix things and you are responsible

36:47

for your actions and everything that happens in your

36:49

life. And then the other extreme

36:51

is the system is so big, everything

36:53

is structural. It's

36:56

like throwing pebbles in the ocean, actually trying

36:58

to make a difference. And

37:00

the truth is that for most changes in our

37:02

life, for most significant things in our life, the answer

37:04

is always in the middle.

37:06

We generally have some agency and

37:08

perhaps it's not as much as we'd like. Sometimes

37:10

it's more than we think we have, but we never have

37:12

full agency.

37:13

So the first question is, in all the

37:16

great philosophers and all the great life

37:18

philosophies acknowledge this, how can we try

37:20

to deduce what we can control, separate

37:23

it from what we can't control and then focus

37:25

on what we can. Epictetus the Stoic

37:27

called this the dichotomy of control. In Buddhism,

37:29

there's the parable of the two arrows, the first

37:32

one you can't control, the second one you can. In

37:34

Christianity, there's the serenity prayer.

37:36

I mean, this shows up in East, West,

37:39

Judeo-Christian, Buddhism, Stoicism

37:41

across the board.

37:42

And I think that there's a reason that it shows up

37:45

so broadly because like I was saying, for most

37:47

things, there's some things we can't control and there's generally

37:49

some stuff that we can. So then what does

37:51

it mean to skillfully engage with that that

37:53

we can control? And I think the most important

37:55

thing to try to practice here is what

37:58

I call Responding not reacting

38:01

and I define reacting

38:04

is being very rash Emotionally

38:07

hot like you snap you

38:09

tend to regret reacting. It might feel good in the

38:11

moment, but very quickly after you're like man Why

38:13

did I do that? Whereas

38:15

responding is slower. It's more thoughtful.

38:18

It's more discerning. It's more deliberate There's

38:20

more space between a change

38:22

in your circumstances and what you do about it another

38:25

very famous quote attributed to Victor Frankl

38:27

You know, there's a space between stimulus and

38:29

response and in that space is where our freedom

38:31

lies so it's really

38:33

about creating space to make a wise

38:36

decision and Every book

38:38

like this has to have a very practical

38:40

framework I've been told so I've included

38:42

one in mine and I do think it's helpful.

38:44

So the framework is two peas versus

38:46

four peas So when we react

38:49

we follow two peas we

38:51

panic and then we pummel ahead

38:53

and when we respond We follow four

38:55

peas so we pause we take stock

38:57

of what's happening. We process

38:59

we make a plan So we say what are

39:02

our skills resources capabilities?

39:04

How can we bring them to bear and then only then do

39:06

we proceed? And what

39:08

I love about this is the four peas.

39:10

It's literally an elongated stretch

39:13

So it's creating that space to

39:15

then decide what to do. So how might this manifest

39:17

in your running life?

39:19

You have an injury. Well, are you gonna

39:21

react to it

39:22

by either pretending? it's not there or completely

39:24

freaking it out or Saying

39:26

that I'm gonna like do something that so many

39:29

runners do and I don't understand why which is like double down

39:31

on training It's like well, I'm starting to get injured So like I might

39:33

as well like get the full adaptation of this workout

39:35

because I know I'm gonna have to miss six months Anyways

39:38

to me that's very reactionary or are you gonna respond

39:41

kind of say like hey, this is what's happening in my body right

39:43

now Here's where my goal is. Here's what my plan

39:45

calls for. Where am I gonna need to adjust? This

39:48

often happens in races, especially distance races.

39:50

You run through an aid station. What a perfect

39:52

example Are you gonna react and freak out

39:54

and go on autopilot or are you gonna respond? Are

39:56

you gonna say, you know, maybe I actually do need to go

39:58

back there and take 30 seconds off

40:00

by time now to make sure I get some nutrition or

40:03

maybe not. Maybe it's early enough in the race. Maybe I've trained,

40:05

maybe I realized that whether I have 300 calories

40:08

or 200 calories an hour actually doesn't matter.

40:10

But it's just having the state of

40:12

mind to make that quick analysis, you

40:15

tend to make better decisions than when you just

40:17

instinctively freak out.

40:19

Right. And I think that when a person has just

40:21

like one goal for a race and it's like

40:23

they realize at some point, you know, maybe mile 20

40:25

that their time goal is out the window and then they

40:28

just are defeated and they just walk it in.

40:30

But if you go into it with like layered

40:32

goals, and so a goal obviously

40:34

is not going to happen. Let's focus on B goal, you

40:37

know, you're responding really thoughtfully

40:39

and working with the changes that are

40:42

happening all

40:42

around you. That's right. And

40:44

I think that's what's so nice about running is there's so

40:47

many opportunities to practice this, you could practice

40:49

this in most workouts, you go out

40:51

and the workout calls for seven minute pace, and

40:54

you see your first two miles are eight minutes. Well,

40:57

what an opportunity to respond or react. It doesn't

40:59

matter what you do, but just being thoughtful

41:01

about it. Like the thing not to do is to freak out. The

41:03

thing to do is to say, Hey, am

41:05

I feeling a little bit sick today? Am I under the weather? Do

41:08

I need to accept that that's just what I have? Or

41:10

was that just a poor start to the workout? Do I need

41:12

to try to ratchet it up? And each time you

41:14

go through this process, you might make a different

41:17

decision. But what matters is going through the process.

41:19

On a race, you go out too fast, you know, you

41:22

run those 630s when you're supposed to go out at 645. Again,

41:24

do you freak out? Do you say, well, the next mile

41:27

I need to ratchet down to 730? Or do you

41:29

say I'm feeling really good today, I'm going to stick with this? Again,

41:32

I don't know what the answer is, but just having

41:34

the presence of mind to quickly be

41:36

responsive instead of freaking out because

41:39

freaking out is almost never helpful.

41:40

And once you learn to take that pause,

41:43

you start to notice the things in

41:45

life that are the freak outs. Certain

41:48

people, their energy is like

41:50

freak out mode all the time. And you start to realize

41:52

like, I need to build some boundaries around my time

41:55

with this person because they are just draining

41:57

me. Or like the news, I feel like

41:59

the news is just one big

42:00

freak out 24 seven, you know, yeah,

42:02

you talk about that in your book. I do. And

42:05

I'm glad that you mentioned that Angie thinks because

42:07

I think that those

42:09

freak outs around us tend to

42:11

rub off on us. So I talked

42:14

a lot about like the inside game of responding

42:16

that reacting. So practicing that muscle

42:18

of pausing processing planning and then proceeding.

42:21

But then there's also everything happening around us. And if we're

42:23

constantly in reactive environments, if

42:25

we spend all day on social media, watching

42:27

cable news, hanging out with people that are

42:29

really reactionary, it's going to rub off on

42:32

us and we're going to become reactionary. So

42:34

if we can prime ourselves to

42:37

be a more responsive person by

42:39

spending more time with responsive

42:42

mediums, I think it goes a long

42:44

way. I know in my own life,

42:46

when I spend time reading a book,

42:49

a hard copy book, not on a screen, and

42:51

I spend time in the gym or in nature

42:53

hiking without my phone on me, and then

42:56

my kid melts down or my dog has diarrhea or

42:58

whatever it is, I am so

43:00

able to respond and handle that gracefully.

43:03

Versus a day when I've been on social media all

43:05

day, or God forbid, it's like a presidential,

43:08

you know, debate that I'm like, doing watching.

43:11

I'm reactionary, I'm more likely to like

43:14

snap at my kids in a way that I regret. And

43:16

it's the same me, but it's what have

43:18

I done to prime myself. And I think

43:20

that it makes a huge difference. That

43:22

term now doom scrolling. Yeah. On

43:25

social media. Yeah, it's a thing. I'm

43:28

not someone that says we should all get off social

43:30

media. It's a huge part of my

43:32

work. It's how I meet readers. So

43:34

it's certainly not all bad. There's actually a lot that's good.

43:37

I think the question is, like any

43:39

tool, how can we try to use the tool to

43:41

benefit and not to harm?

43:44

You know, if you use a hammer to hit a

43:46

nail when a nail needs hammering, you're really glad

43:49

you have a hammer. If you turn around and hit yourself

43:51

in the head with a hammer, you're not using

43:53

the hammer wisely. And I feel like we do some version

43:55

of that to ourselves when we doom scroll and

43:57

get sucked into the social media rabbit hole.

43:59

So everyone should pare down their social

44:02

media use. Curate your feed. Block

44:04

everyone except at Brad Stolberg and

44:07

at Marathon Academy. Listen

44:10

to the at Marathon Academy podcast

44:12

and read the at Brad Stolberg book and

44:14

you'll set yourself up to respond to everything

44:16

life throws your way. We

44:19

are your cult leaders.

44:22

Quick word of thanks to our sponsor, Ola Dance.

44:25

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44:41

they're really nice if you listen to a lot of

44:43

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44:45

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44:47

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44:49

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45:19

use the code MTA20 for 20% off. Here's

45:23

the unrelated question since Angie said cult leaders.

45:26

Oh God, yeah. Your

45:29

guy has studied psychology. How easy do you

45:31

think it would be to start a cult?

45:33

For me, it'd be very hard because I

45:36

could never be a cult leader

45:38

but I think that it's very easy to start

45:40

a cult. The playbook is out there. We've

45:43

seen it done unfortunately really, really

45:45

well at the highest levels of American life.

45:48

So I think that it's not too hard.

45:50

I think there are these facets, right? It's inside

45:52

information. I know something that you don't know. Generally,

45:56

there's a kernel of truth or believability

45:58

or like the word may. These things may

46:00

hurt you. This may not be the case. And

46:04

then it is us against them. And

46:07

it's making people feel meaning and belonging.

46:09

But ultimately, you're like out to grift them because

46:12

all of these so-called cult leaders

46:14

at the end of the day, like you dig deep enough and they're

46:16

selling something. Whatever it is they're selling

46:18

is what's going to help you avoid the coming

46:21

of the end of the world or

46:23

whatever it is that they've set out

46:25

to propagate. Bringing it

46:27

back to the book because it's in there a little bit.

46:30

I never thought we'd end up here, but here we are. This is the first interview

46:32

on the book that I've talked about cults. But

46:35

during times of accelerated

46:38

change and disorder, when you look across

46:40

history, that is when you tend to see

46:42

demagogues, grifters in essentially

46:44

cults really proliferate. So

46:47

I think that it is something that is also not

46:50

surprising that we're seeing a lot of right now because

46:52

we are going through a lot of change.

46:55

But there was this pandemic. Some people don't

46:57

believe that it actually happened. I'm someone that

46:59

does believe that it actually happened. I

47:01

was there. There

47:05

is pretty clear evidence that the climate is

47:07

changing in a way that is unprecedented.

47:10

Artificial intelligence is on the horizon.

47:12

We've only lived with social media for 20 years. The

47:15

internet is only like 30 years old.

47:17

So we are living in a time of really

47:19

accelerated change. And

47:21

I think that another appeal of demagogues,

47:24

cult leaders, charlatans, whatever you want to call them,

47:26

is they kind of promise like insulation from

47:29

the disorder. Take the supplement

47:31

and you'll be fine. Join this movement and you'll be

47:33

safe. You'll be secure. So it's not

47:35

surprising that we see a rise in these things

47:38

during times of change. One time when there

47:40

was just enormous proliferation

47:43

of what today we would call the grift or charlatans

47:45

was when Copernicus realized

47:48

that the universe doesn't revolve around the earth. And

47:52

there was a huge proliferation of

47:54

all of these cults and grifters that

47:57

essentially sold security amidst

47:59

that big change. how we understood ourselves

48:01

in the universe. But that was

48:03

a time of then a lot of hearsay and in

48:05

a way you could argue that that kind of mirrors

48:08

some of our politics today, which is just crazy,

48:10

you know, how history just repeats itself.

48:12

So really getting back

48:14

to change and developing rugged

48:16

flexibility is a great way to insulate

48:18

yourself from being deceived, you

48:21

know, and jumping off the edge of some

48:23

of these movements that will suck the life

48:25

out

48:25

of you. I've heard that, like, we

48:27

think of survival of the fittest,

48:29

but really it's survival of the most adaptable

48:32

is what evolution favors. I would agree.

48:34

I think that evolution is real

48:37

and I think there are spiritual ways of interpreting it and

48:39

more agnostic ways of interpreting it, but I'm

48:41

going to make the assumption that most people

48:43

think that we got here in a path of scientific

48:46

evolution. When you think about

48:47

species that have survived and thrived

48:50

over a long period of time, evolutionary biologists,

48:52

they constantly identify these two core

48:54

elements. One is they have strong

48:57

essential features. So these are things that

48:59

do not change completely because

49:01

if these things did change completely, the

49:03

species would no longer be recognizable.

49:05

So this is their source of ruggedness. But

49:07

then on everything else and on how

49:09

they apply those features, they are extremely

49:12

flexible. So I think rugged flexibility

49:15

and right about this in the book, like you see it on an

49:17

evolutionary scale and then you zoom

49:19

in and you say, all right, that's really, really grand.

49:22

Let's think about it at an individual scale. And

49:24

I think a profound example of this is Roger Federer.

49:27

So Roger Federer, one of the greatest athletes of

49:29

all time, also just dominant

49:31

deep into his career. He was winning

49:34

major championships at age 37, 38 in a sport that prior

49:36

to Federer, most

49:39

people peaked in like their late twenties. But Federer

49:42

went through a time when he was almost like an evolutionary

49:44

terms taken out of the environment. So between

49:46

age 33 and 36, aging

49:49

had caught up to him and the game had changed a lot. And

49:51

Federer was in a real rut. He didn't win a major championship.

49:53

He was constantly needing to drop out of tournaments.

49:56

He couldn't string together good training. And

49:58

Federer essentially stepped back and said well,

50:00

my essential features or my ruggedness,

50:03

love for the game, commitment to excellence

50:05

and competition.

50:06

But nothing about how he played

50:09

was a source of his ruggedness. So what did he do in those

50:11

three years? He completely reinvented his game.

50:13

He learned a one handed backhand to take speed

50:15

off the ball.

50:16

He started playing at the net more to shorten points.

50:19

He revamped his training. So he built in more

50:21

time for recovery.

50:22

He did something that is so sacrilegious for

50:25

a world class world champion tennis

50:27

player,

50:28

which is he gave up the racket that

50:30

made him the best in the world to

50:32

start using a new technologically developed

50:34

racket that all the young kids were using. And

50:36

Federer talks about this, how he

50:39

himself didn't really change like he's still

50:41

Roger Federer, the fierce competitor, but so

50:45

much about how he exerted those values,

50:47

how he played the game, he had to adapt and change.

50:50

So I think he's a paragon of this kind of

50:52

like evolutionary approach to rugged flexibility.

50:55

On the one hand, he's really rugged. But man,

50:57

did he have to be flexible to come back

50:59

from injury and to deal with aging to

51:02

stay atop a sport that again, normally

51:04

selects people out in evolutionary

51:06

terms when they hit their 30s.

51:08

I like it. Yeah, I enjoyed reading that in the

51:10

book, too. I used to play tennis, I

51:12

had to quit because I couldn't stand the racket. That's

51:16

funny. That's a good dad joke. I should tell that to my

51:18

kids. So

51:20

when you write about someone like Roger Federer

51:22

in the book, and all these other great examples,

51:24

you ever email them and be like, Hey, I mentioned you in my

51:26

book, Roger.

51:28

So sometimes I actually get in touch

51:30

with these people before and like I get to report

51:32

out and talk to them, which is really fun. Sometimes

51:35

I don't because they're busy,

51:37

and there's gazillions of writers and talk show

51:39

host and everyone that wants to talk to them. In

51:41

a way, it makes my job easier. Because

51:43

if I'm just quoting them of what's already

51:46

on record, then I can really be

51:48

defensible. It's like he said this in a press

51:50

conference, here's the press conference. So

51:52

the short answer is I have not heard

51:55

from Roger Federer, though I would love

51:57

to. However, a real fun story is,

51:59

um, Niels van der Pol. Niels

52:01

I couldn't get in touch with, right? There's like a language barrier.

52:04

We're in different parts of the world. He's

52:06

not really on the internet at all. So

52:09

I tried but like just no luck. But someone

52:11

sent me a picture the day after my book came

52:13

out from Sweden. There's this swim-run

52:15

race called the Attillo and Niels

52:17

was at the race holding up my book. Wow.

52:21

And then there was a quote in a different

52:23

language and of course I'm like, oh

52:25

shit. What did he say? I

52:28

go over to Google Translate and he's like, this

52:29

is very good. It's nice

52:31

Which from like, you know, a sweet as

52:34

any like of these Nordic athletes like it's good. It's nice

52:36

That's about as much of a compliment as you're gonna get. He's

52:38

like gushing basically. Yeah, so

52:41

that was cool And then I got the backstory did a little

52:43

digging and it turns out one of my longtime

52:45

readers here is a guy named Gordo Bird

52:47

and he competed this race in the Attillo and

52:50

he and his wife had Immediately got the

52:52

book like right when it came out and when he was

52:54

doing this eight-hour all-day race He

52:56

gave the book to Niels and I don't even know if he knew that Niels

52:58

was in the book I mean Niels just read

53:01

the book instead of

53:01

watch the race So

53:04

like those are the moments that just for

53:06

me make this all like that's the

53:08

validation I'm here for Can you imagine picking up

53:10

a book and then like finding yourself in it a couple

53:13

pages doing like what? Yeah, you

53:15

just got to win a double world championship

53:17

and then write very philosophically

53:19

about it Well,

53:22

it's been great talking to you Brad as always

53:24

people want to become a master of change And also

53:26

learn more about you where can we send them?

53:28

Best place is to your bookstore or Amazon

53:31

Barnes and Noble bookshop that org wherever you get the book

53:34

the best way to Learn more and

53:36

really get into the weeds on these topics is to read

53:38

the book and then my website

53:40

is just my name At Brad Stalberg

53:43

and then that is also where I'm at on Instagram

53:45

And I will say you post very helpful

53:47

just great content over on Instagram.

53:49

I try not contributing to

53:51

the hyphen hysteria I

53:53

do what I can. Well, I really

53:56

appreciate you all. I always enjoy talking

53:58

to you. Thank you. Thank you

54:13

Alright, I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Brad Stolberg.

54:16

Really fun talking to him again and

54:19

all kinds of little bonus topics that

54:22

we explored there. Colts and all kinds

54:24

of stuff. I really

54:26

like the framework, the universal

54:29

wisdom pattern of order, disorder,

54:32

reorder in stories. You

54:34

know, it's the classic hero's journey story.

54:36

If we were watching a movie and it all didn't have a happy

54:39

ending, like it didn't end with reorder, we'd

54:41

probably feel like we didn't get our money's worth. So Angie,

54:43

looking back on your running, you've probably seen periods

54:46

of disorder, right? You've

54:48

run for long enough, it's going to happen.

54:49

The book really gave

54:52

me a very helpful new framework

54:54

to look at multiple areas

54:56

in my life, but in particular this podcast,

54:58

we're talking about running. Because

55:01

you are never going to get back to the runner

55:03

that you used to be. But that doesn't mean

55:05

that by navigating change successfully,

55:08

by building that rugged flexibility,

55:11

that you can't come back as a stronger,

55:13

more flexible, more joyful

55:16

runner.

55:16

Yeah, so we hope this was a big help

55:18

to everyone listening. And we'd like to invite

55:21

you over to MTA if

55:23

you want help navigating the disorder

55:25

and bringing order into your training. Something

55:28

that our coaches are experts at doing. If

55:30

you feel like you're not hitting your paces, if

55:32

your fueling is off, or maybe the

55:34

times you've been running are not what you want,

55:37

and you feel like you need some outside perspective

55:40

and a shot of new energy into your training,

55:42

you can find out more about how coaching works

55:45

and how a coach is able to structure your

55:47

plan and help guide you through those

55:49

ups and downs. Look for the coaching page on

55:51

our website, MarathonTrainingAcademy.com. We

55:54

just love helping clients navigate

55:56

those changes and bring order out of chaos,

55:58

as they say. Coach Nicole on our team

56:01

would be happy to speak with you if you wanna just

56:03

chat and get some immediate help with

56:05

whatever you're dealing with. We have actually

56:07

a page where you can sign up for a free call, MarathonTrainingAcademy.com.

56:11

And over there we'll have the show notes to this episode,

56:13

the link to Brad's book, and everything that

56:16

was mentioned. So that's it for now. Until

56:18

next time, stay safe out there and remember you have

56:20

what it takes to run a marathon and change your life.

56:23

♪ Hail Mary, full

56:24

of grace, full of grace ♪ ♪ Mary,

56:29

full of grace, full of grace, full

56:32

of grace ♪