0:01

On the program today. Turns

0:03

out if you build it,

0:06

they really will come from

0:08

American Public Media. This is

0:10

marketplace. In

0:19

Los Angeles icon result It

0:21

is today today the thirtieth

0:23

of a broad. Good as

0:25

always to have you along

0:27

Everybody this will I believe

0:29

sound familiar. Specifically,

0:34

it's the sound of an apartment

0:36

building going on this one in

0:39

Downtown Phoenix, Arizona. We

0:41

were there last month to do

0:44

some stories for our series, breaking

0:46

ground about how the Inflation Reduction

0:48

Act, the bipartisan Infrastructure law, and

0:51

the Chipset are changing this economy

0:53

in complicated, invisible, and sometimes contradictory

0:55

way. The

0:58

Chips act is especially relevant here

1:00

in Phoenix. Those to a parallel

1:02

parking? Well, everybody watches. Owner.

1:06

Etc. Long you've hurt or on

1:08

our air on Fridays. Four years

1:10

She's a Washington Post columnist and

1:12

an editorial board member and women

1:14

talk and for a while now

1:16

about where we could go to

1:18

tell the story of this economic

1:20

moment. It's a moment when the

1:22

future of this economy depends on

1:24

the Federal government playing the long

1:26

game. All.

1:34

The stories we've done in this

1:36

series so far have been about

1:38

that that street in Las Vegas

1:40

weren't Infrastructure project is going to

1:42

change lives. Years down the road,

1:45

The. Investments in sustainable aviation fuel

1:47

that eventually are going to

1:50

make flying less environmentally damaging.

1:53

All. The stuff built and all the program

1:56

started during the new deal that are still

1:58

affecting this economy almost a century. later

2:01

and everything happening in Phoenix

2:03

right now. Hi

2:05

Heather Long, how are you? Having never seen

2:07

you before in real life. First

2:10

of all, let's get out of the road. She

2:12

had just gotten off a plane from DC. I had

2:15

come in from LA and we met

2:17

on this block full of construction cranes

2:19

right in downtown Phoenix. Why

2:23

are we in Phoenix? Hi,

2:26

this is ground zero for the

2:28

new economy. I mean, the people are

2:30

here, the money's coming here, one

2:32

of the fastest growing areas of the country

2:35

and they're about to get an

2:37

even bigger infusion of cash from

2:40

the federal government for the semiconductor,

2:43

whatever we're trying to do. Bonanza, right? Yeah,

2:45

Bonanza, that's a good word. The

2:49

CHIPS Act is pouring money into Phoenix

2:52

in the billions of dollars to try

2:54

to make the United States more competitive.

2:56

The Biden administration is making a bet

2:59

that semiconductors, those chips that go

3:01

into basically everything these days from

3:03

cutting edge AI computers to microwaves

3:06

are what this country needs to

3:08

ensure its economic future. But

3:11

it's not all upside risk. It's

3:13

not all rosy and I know we're going to talk

3:15

about that too. This is also a place that can

3:18

get to 120 degrees in the summer and it's not

3:20

fun to be outside, but it

3:22

just, this is clearly, it feels, it reminds

3:24

me a little bit of San

3:26

Francisco in the 90s or early 2000s.

3:28

You know, you can feel the rocket

3:30

ship ready to take off. You might

3:32

not want to be here. You can

3:34

decide, but something is happening. To

3:37

be clear, that something was going to

3:39

happen with or without the federal government. Phoenix

3:42

is one of the fastest growing cities in America,

3:44

almost 200,000 new residents since 2020 and it is

3:49

getting bigger every day. This

3:52

city is changing how it grows, right? It used to

3:54

be population only, right? More people would tell me that

3:56

would be economic growth. Now it's technology as a driver,

3:58

right? The city is trying to change. Definitely.

4:00

I think the city, you're right,

4:02

has always been about population also expanding out and

4:04

out and out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You saw

4:07

that from the plane, right? Definitely. Again, it looks

4:09

like LA. Right. But now they're trying to do

4:11

something a little bit different. And,

4:13

you know, it's not the Detroit

4:15

Ford factory that our parents

4:17

and grandparents grew up with. It's not

4:19

the coders that were so hot in

4:22

California. It's a mix of all that.

4:25

Jobs in semiconductor factories, fabs they're

4:27

called, require highly

4:29

specialized skills. Chips get made in

4:32

temperature controlled clean rooms, free from fingerprints

4:34

or even dust. And

4:37

they're doing it at scale. That's a good

4:39

point. There are huge facilities that are happening

4:41

here. TSMC and Intel as well, right? They're

4:43

doing it in a way that will

4:45

change the economy of a whole city. Well,

4:47

and possibly a whole country. If

4:50

it works here, Ohio wants this, Texas

4:52

wants this, upstate New York wants this.

4:55

What's standing in the way of it working here? Well,

4:58

I mean, what everybody keeps telling us in the headlines

5:00

is where are all the workers? You know,

5:02

across the country they need in the next few years. It

5:04

depends who you ask, but 60 to 70,000? That's

5:08

a pretty fast growing industry. It is.

5:11

So they need all those people to come here. More

5:13

people than have come already. And let's get to some

5:15

of the negatives. We're standing at a construction site. I

5:17

mean, one, two, three. There are three construction sites. Maybe

5:19

four on this block. Looks like they're

5:21

all apartments, but it comes with some

5:23

downsides, all this growth done. Well,

5:26

you're right. Phoenix, you and I, Marketplace

5:28

and The Washington Post, have both done

5:30

stories in the last several years about

5:32

the rapid home price inflation in the

5:34

area. I was even speaking to a

5:36

woman who has a $170,000 a year

5:38

job, part of this semiconductor boom. I

5:40

mean, that sounds like a pretty good

5:42

job to me. And

5:44

she just, half the conversation

5:46

was, but I don't think I can afford a

5:48

home. Even on that, you know? And

5:51

that was kind of mind blowing. I'm sure it

5:53

depends what you want, but it was

5:55

eye opening. Even with

5:57

the good job, you're right. The Inflation. There

6:00

have been worse than average and Phoenix

6:02

and say they can't build the housing

6:04

fast enough to accommodate. Been one of

6:07

the fastest growing cities such as since

6:09

the pandemic, but even several years before

6:11

the pandemic, To

6:16

can we talk of time skill

6:18

here because this is going to

6:20

teach you know a big semi

6:22

conductor plan takes years to build

6:24

many billions of dollars. Or

6:27

I don't want to prejudge this but the odds

6:29

are along with this. actually works out the way

6:31

but is planning know? I

6:34

think you're right. Maybe is no Answers You

6:37

are. we were all trying to be hard

6:39

for you don't want to was our government's

6:41

been fifty billion for nothing? But you're right.

6:43

Can you train enough workers? Can it be

6:45

sustainable? I think that's one of the deep

6:47

questions. Economists are very skeptical that even with

6:50

all this. Been bell can the

6:52

United. States of America be competitive

6:54

in this landscape. Through

6:58

things before we go too much work.

7:00

First of all, this is an election

7:02

and whether people are thinking about it

7:04

or not. among all the other things

7:06

this election is going to be about.

7:09

Is what role the government is

7:11

going to play in this economy

7:14

and actually as point to. That

7:17

the chipsets and the infrastructure

7:19

law and inflation reduction acts

7:21

are the biden administration putting

7:23

the government's firmly and farther

7:25

into this economy. Be.

7:30

United States used to be

7:32

the epicenter of semiconductor production

7:34

today, though. Not so

7:36

much. Only about ten percent of

7:38

the world's chips are made in

7:40

American factories. Most of them come

7:42

from Taiwan or South Korea, Japan,

7:44

or China, which Washington says is

7:46

a national security issue. So.

7:48

Through the Chips Act, the government is putting

7:51

some on the scale trying to tip more

7:53

of the semiconductor industry back here. And

7:56

that. Brings. Us to our second construction

7:58

site of the day. The. Drive

8:00

north at a downtown Phoenix, past

8:02

the shopping centers and new housing

8:04

developments. And. Eventually you hit Brown

8:06

Deserts and then this is the

8:09

bigger my the biggest construction sites

8:11

I've ever seen. Looks like an

8:13

airplane hangar except on you know,

8:15

sparrows or something as an enormous.

8:19

This is a future sight of

8:21

not one, not two, but three

8:23

semiconductor factories being built by Tsmc

8:26

Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. And with

8:28

more than fifty percent of the

8:30

global market share, Tsmc is the

8:33

undisputed leader in this industry, especially.

8:35

For the highest And chips and

8:37

it's chosen this site and North

8:40

Phoenix to spend sixty five billion

8:42

dollars. I should point out here

8:44

just for context that the chips

8:46

act itself. Only. Has fifty

8:48

three billion dollars dollar. Food

8:52

is common in. Whether

8:54

or not it's not that hard of as

8:56

part of that right part of a tiny

8:58

and then the second one. In

9:01

May have Twenty Twenty. While much of

9:03

the economy is in and Dengue lockdown,

9:05

Tsmc announced plans to build a factory

9:07

here. Two. Years later, after the

9:09

Chipset past it announced plans to build

9:11

a second factor on the same site.

9:13

i'm not serve religion at the first

9:15

of the second one, those rd like

9:17

a massive aware of what he was.

9:19

a big chunk of it. we can

9:21

see by dollar destruction and it's gonna

9:23

get even bigger to scuttle. Weeks ago,

9:25

with more than six billion dollars and

9:28

new grants from the chipset, Tsmc announced

9:30

plans to build it's third factory. The

9:33

parking lot were standing in has room

9:35

for hundreds, maybe thousands of cars. Right

9:38

now it's used by construction workers and

9:40

at three o'clock and a weekday afternoon

9:42

it's busy. Much flatter trucks and as

9:44

she reasoned workers taken off boots and

9:47

dusty close ally others a seminar from

9:49

an hour shift Verizon. other

9:53

long observant reporter that she is

9:55

store stick know to license plates

9:57

or that's a good little hands

9:59

texas legislators California, another

10:01

Texas. Wow,

10:04

that's a Colorado. Nevada.

10:09

TSMC says there are more than

10:11

12,000 workers on this

10:13

job site every single day. New

10:16

Hampshire, that guy drove a long way for this

10:18

job. But

10:21

this project isn't the only one drawing

10:23

construction workers to Phoenix. President

10:25

Biden was in town the same day we were, to announce $8.5

10:27

billion in chips at grants to Intel. And

10:32

then there are all the chemical suppliers

10:35

and chip packaging companies lured here by

10:37

TSMC and Intel. And getting all of

10:39

those factories built is going

10:41

to take more workers than this area can supply.

10:44

Oh, wow, that's a Michigan flag on

10:46

that vehicle. Go blue. Point

10:49

of fact, a lack of skilled tradesmen is

10:51

one reason that TSMC says the expected completion

10:53

dates for these factories has

10:55

to be pushed back. I'm

10:58

actually surprised how much they have done for all

11:00

that you hear in the headlines. Delay,

11:02

delay, delay. Yeah, but we're

11:05

in mid, early mid 2024. We

11:08

haven't got a year. You're right. Right? I mean,

11:10

it's going to take a while. This

11:13

particular parking lot didn't have a gate on it, so

11:15

we just drove right in. But as we tried to

11:17

talk to some of the workers heading to their cars,

11:20

a beat up old pickup truck labeled security

11:22

flagged as dead. There's

11:24

security there. We

11:29

didn't last five minutes. Security got older. The

11:33

first of these factories isn't going to open until

11:36

next year. The third, if it all goes to

11:38

plan, is supposed to open before the end of

11:40

the decade. But

11:42

the jobs building those factories, they're

11:45

here right now. These plants

11:47

are essentially chemical plants. They're not just

11:49

chip manufacturing plants. The

11:51

work of training workers for this new

11:53

economy, after the break. With

12:09

access to so much information, it's hard

12:11

to feel like an informed, discerning citizen.

12:14

That's why on Make Me Smart, which is

12:16

a podcast from Marketplace, we make it easy

12:18

for you to stay in the know. Hi,

12:20

I'm Kai Rizdahl. Every weekday, Kimberly Adams and

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12:33

don't buy at the top, but holy

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do the numbers. So as a

12:44

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It's not just sort of things getting more expensive at

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Listen to Make Me Smart wherever you get your podcasts.

13:06

This is Marketplace. I'm Kai Rizdahl. I

13:08

was in Phoenix last month, along

13:10

with Washington Post columnist Heather Long, to

13:12

report on the long game that the

13:14

federal government is playing in this economy

13:17

as it tries to reshape the semiconductor

13:19

industry and with it, the

13:21

future of manufacturing in the United

13:23

States. And after we visited

13:25

that huge TSMC construction site, we

13:28

made another stop at a training center run

13:30

by the local pipefitters union. That's

13:34

bigger than I thought. Yeah,

13:37

that was an ongoing theme of our time in

13:39

Phoenix. Everything was bigger in person.

13:42

And this training center, we're

13:44

talking about multiple buildings, almost like a

13:46

mini community college. And at five

13:48

o'clock on a Tuesday evening, the parking

13:50

lot was full. Oh, no, we don't need

13:52

to try. Pipefitters

13:58

are skilled tradesmen, the people who design. install

14:00

and maintain, yes, pipes,

14:02

but not just water pipes like under your sink or

14:04

in your house, but pipe systems

14:06

for oil refineries and chemical plants and

14:09

hospitals too. Hi,

14:12

Mike. Hi, it

14:29

takes four to five years of training to become

14:31

a fully certified journeyman in pipe fitting. First-year

14:34

apprentices start out making more than $21 an hour

14:37

plus benefits, journeymen make more than twice

14:39

that, and these guys, Mike Molloy and

14:42

Travis Laird, are responsible for training

14:44

them. We

14:46

run an apprenticeship as well as the training center for

14:48

our local. I don't know if

14:50

this is an appropriate question, but how's business? Does

14:52

that jive for you? Do

14:55

you know what I mean? Business is very good these days.

14:57

We're growing very rapidly,

14:59

a lot of the semiconductor growth in the valley. If you

15:02

look around the valley, a lot of cranes in

15:04

the sky. Yeah, I've seen all the cranes. So

15:06

basically, that's a sign of activity

15:08

for you and your tradesmen and all those

15:10

guys. Yeah, we have a couple of largest

15:12

construction projects in the country here, the valley

15:14

between TSMC and Intel. Remember,

15:19

TSMC and Intel make semiconductors, and

15:21

both of them are getting billions

15:23

of federal dollars to expand

15:26

their production here in Phoenix. Can

15:28

you just give us a little rundown what

15:30

a pipe fitter is doing at a

15:32

place like a TSMC? Is

15:34

it a bunch of faucets? Sort of talk to

15:37

people who don't know this world through what you'd

15:39

be doing. No, and that's, I mean, that's a

15:41

good question. The fitters

15:43

and plumbers work side by side installing high-purity

15:46

tubing, a lot of exotic metals as far

15:48

as gas distribution, high pressure systems. These

15:50

plants are essentially chemical plants. They're not

15:52

just chip manufacturing plants. So

15:55

how many apprentices? Give us the rundown. Just

15:58

over a thousand apprentices. How

16:00

many Avenue journeymen. We. Have a

16:02

we would total membership. I think right now

16:04

we're over fifty seven hundred members, run our

16:06

local forces, and historically, who has a lot

16:09

is it? That's a lot where where probably.

16:12

More. Than Two x what we were

16:14

two years ago. Two years ago While.

16:21

Was so look So The root of

16:23

this question is if the government is

16:25

plow and trillion dollars in the discount

16:27

me, weather's chips, actor, their social hour

16:29

or any of that rights. You guys

16:31

are up to X from two years

16:33

ago. So it's five years with Tsmc

16:35

and and all the rest. I'm online

16:37

and more of their sub Hear what

16:39

is it looked like for. Well

16:42

right now we need maintain our our our target

16:44

number and Roman for premises as we need to

16:46

be about fifteen hundred as as where we're a

16:49

little shy. Right where it where little shy. Right

16:51

now but we're We're very optimistic and things

16:53

like better for us now the they haven't.

16:55

Over thirty years Lng be known as I've

16:57

been in the trade I'm in a member

16:59

local for nine for over thirty years. I've

17:02

been the train director for the past two

17:04

years which are selling those and in the

17:06

look of a doing this for years for

17:08

to do point I was math teacher here

17:10

in Arizona spleen and a that transition one

17:12

of my best friends When folds was when

17:14

we left college I started teaching he doesn't

17:16

and the trade every year he was get

17:18

raises makes a more more money he got

17:20

paid overtime. I did not and very

17:23

quickly slither. affordable. They teach him

17:25

and I makes no three four

17:27

times when I did teach him

17:29

and I'm back in the education

17:32

bill. Frankly, I. Remember.

17:36

This is a school. The Rockettes Access

17:38

has gone on teaching pipefitters new skills.

17:43

Sold as regular classrooms other this

17:45

is over the world away from

17:47

of. the

17:49

first night class over here so is this

17:51

has been working all day know that someone

17:53

who's a city or some present in a

17:55

western our their assistance of some for for

17:57

our class down there and this is a

17:59

skill not solely for

18:01

semiconductors but very specific semiconductors.

18:03

Right. I

18:08

picked up a piece of pipe from a big

18:10

red bin outside that classroom. So wait, so what

18:12

am I looking at? So this is a piece

18:14

of pipe that's gone, it's been slayed somehow, right?

18:16

Yep, and that's slayed just to test it. There's

18:18

an example, it's called a coupon, but you're looking

18:20

at key components. It's incredibly clean inside and

18:23

it's a very consistent weld. So

18:25

every single day to start your day... Oh sorry, I didn't even

18:27

see the weld. Every day

18:29

you're going to cut one open a coupon and

18:32

give it quality control to inspect it before they'll

18:34

allow you to start welding. At the end of

18:36

your day you'll do another coupon like that to

18:38

show that every weld in between was a quality

18:40

weld. If

18:49

it's not a quality weld, you got

18:51

to start over. And this kind

18:53

of welding isn't something you can

18:55

learn in a day. To build these factories

18:57

you need workers trained in specialized skills

18:59

that can take years to learn. So

19:02

people come from all over the country into here

19:04

and we send some of our instructors around the

19:06

country to train other locals. We

19:09

also walked past an industrial rigging

19:11

class, a semiconductor awareness class, and

19:14

a computer-assisted design class. Tell

19:18

me who you are. My name is Ijean

19:20

Oramides. Are you an apprentice? Yes

19:23

I am. And how long have you been doing that? I'm

19:26

in my fifth year. Oh so you're almost done,

19:28

right? What is it, turnout? Is that what

19:30

they call it? Yeah, turnout. I've

19:33

just under a whole year left. How's it

19:35

going so far, five years in? You know

19:37

I love it. I wish I found it earlier when

19:40

I was younger. I was just going to say, no pressure, everybody.

19:42

I'm not a young guy. So

19:44

how did you make the switch? What were you

19:47

doing before? You know, to be honest, I

19:49

worked grocery before. I was 22 years of Safeway. I

19:52

was just mentally bored and I wanted

19:54

to do something else. It

19:57

took me a while to acclimate, but I'm loving

19:59

it. Is it hard work, like physically

20:01

hard work? It can be, it can be, but you

20:03

know, that's what all the safety

20:05

regulations, you make sure you get lifting buddy

20:07

and all that, you know. There's

20:09

ways to get work done and be safe.

20:12

And can you inspire some people for us? What age

20:14

did you make the switch? I

20:17

made the switch while I was 43.

20:22

And like I said, I wish I had found

20:24

it earlier, but it is what it is. It's

20:27

10 to six at night. You're in class, I

20:29

imagine you've been working all day? Yeah, I got our work,

20:32

it came straight here. What time did you start work this

20:34

morning? It starts at six. Yeah.

20:37

You must be exhausted. Huh? At

20:40

times, you know, I don't know, like, I'm

20:42

probably one of the most energetic and in

20:44

class. He also always has a selfiest on his desk. Oh,

20:47

well there you go, you gotta have those. Yeah. Tell

20:51

us who you are. I'm Bree, and I

20:53

do CAD designing and drawings. So

20:56

I'm not in the field like him. And how

20:58

did you get into this work? So

21:00

I actually designed headstones before. I

21:03

did that for four years. And

21:05

it just got a little sad, and then my friend works in

21:07

this. He's actually my boss now, and he got me into it,

21:09

and I love it. And

21:13

what kind of projects have you worked on so far? We're

21:17

playing a really semiconductor. So

21:22

what does that mean? You're sitting at home, or you're

21:24

on a computer, figuring out where things are

21:26

gonna go, doing the design? I'm

21:28

at home, yeah, fully remote. But you're sitting there

21:30

on the computer, figuring out the schematics

21:32

and all that jazz for TSMC or whatever.

21:35

Yep, so we have a modeler who puts it together, and I

21:37

go through and do all the measurements, the

21:39

parts, and make sure everything is correctly lined up. It

21:41

can fit on the track and get out there.

21:44

It's complicated. Yeah. And

21:46

how old are you? I will be 25. So

21:49

you found this pretty early. Yeah, yeah, I just started

21:51

a year ago. Let

21:54

you guys get back to class, thanks a lot. Bye.

22:01

Remember, they're going back for a few more hours

22:04

of class after a full day of work. These

22:06

students are playing the long

22:08

game. They're investing in their skills. At

22:11

the same time, the federal government is

22:13

investing in the semiconductor industry. And

22:15

like Heather said earlier, Phoenix might be

22:18

ground zero for this industry now, but

22:20

Ohio and Texas and other

22:22

places around the country are

22:24

looking to make long-term investments of their own.

22:28

Just so we're all clear that it will

22:31

take decades to pay off. On

22:36

the program tomorrow, there's

22:39

a lot of trees out here. That tree

22:41

is called an ironwood tree and it's about $8,000.

22:45

A low-tech product essential to

22:47

this high-tech industry's growth. Thisx

23:19

final note on the way out today, one more

23:21

moment from that conversation I had with Mike Malloy

23:23

and Travis Laird at the Pipefitters Training Center. It

23:25

gets back to where Heather and I started. On

23:28

that block in downtown Phoenix with

23:30

all the construction, construction that is

23:33

going to need pipefitters. As

23:36

you drive around, is it a target-rich environment

23:38

for you? Do you look at things today?

23:40

There's something there. There's something there. Oh, yeah.

23:43

It's all over like Travis. There's a lot of cranes in the air right

23:45

now. The valley

23:47

is expanding so much. The

23:50

outlying areas are now being zoned

23:52

for industrial work. I

23:55

myself live far on the East Valley. Nobody

23:58

Ever looked at the East Valley for industrial stuff.

24:00

commercial sites you know and and so since you

24:02

live out there were development and as common. As

24:05

a as a guy who's a resident, not

24:07

as a diverse a union leader. Would

24:10

you think on Antebellum? Well

24:12

I mean I said I think it's great for

24:14

the economy and I think is gonna be great

24:16

for the presence of other because like I said

24:18

and and you know industrial projects are going to

24:20

bring a lot more was it. I mean I'm

24:22

not really excited for this for Phoenix to look

24:24

like downtown L A and the next ten years,

24:26

but I mean that's what we're faced with. I

24:28

mean this as an excuse me, I mean this

24:30

as the the Silicon Desert as they called it.

24:32

you know what I mean and as issues migration

24:34

from California and other places and this is where

24:36

they want to build muscle. If

24:39

you both have they will come Yes and their common.

24:42

As an. Oven or

24:44

to now and all that much worse.

24:48

I had when we are out there

24:50

are so you have a like I

24:52

said up sub. they are building it

24:54

and people are common. Our digital and

24:56

on demand seem include carry Barbara Jordan

24:58

mentions Villain Me as an incident when

25:00

Ogre, Ottoman Elena authors Virginity Smith and

25:03

Twenty Wagner. Francisco Levy is the Executive

25:05

director of digital an on Demand. I'm

25:07

try result we will see tomorrow. Everybody.

25:38

He. Beer. With access to so much

25:40

information it's hard to feel like an

25:42

informed discerning says That's why on make

25:44

Me smart Watches apart as from Marketplace,

25:46

we make it easy for you to

25:48

stay in the know. I am far

25:50

as doll. Every weekday Kimberly Adams and

25:52

I unpack the latest from Washington D

25:55

C. As his Senate Minority leader has

25:57

announced that he will step down as

25:59

a Republican. Peter what's happening in

26:01

a I? I? I mean don't buy

26:03

the top but holy cow Artificial intelligence

26:05

and all. Job is really to do

26:08

it par the the hot new. And.

26:11

He do the numbers. So as

26:13

a refresher, inflation is the

26:16

rate. Of increase in the prices

26:18

of things, not to sort of things.

26:20

Getting more expensive at the speed at which

26:22

things. Get more expensive because in a

26:24

world it's constantly changing, it's we all

26:26

need to stay smartest, listen to makes

26:28

me smart Wherever you get your focus.