0:00

We've had some fantastic guests over the last 4, 5, 6 weeks.

0:03

I'm pleased to announce that our sponsor for the Shore Grid Bank for IO have renewed for some more episodes or excited to to get involved with some more guests and share some more marketing knowledge to the business owners that are joining us for the episode.

0:17

This week we've had a, we've had some fascinating guests on the show.

0:21

This week's no different. Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to introduce James Butcher to the show.

0:25

Hi James.

0:27

Hi there, thanks for having me.

0:29

It's a pleasure to have you on board. James, welcome.

0:31

For anybody who doesn't know James from his previous history, James has now managed and run four separate businesses and been responsible for go to market, sales and marketing strategy within all of them.

0:43

So a fantastic guest to have on the show to share his knowledge.

0:46

Just before we dive into a little bit more of James's background I've got a little statement from our podcast sponsors so if you're listening to this, you know I'm all about building content at scale.

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in and let me know what you think. Coming back to the podcast then James, it's a pleasure to have you on the show as I've said.

1:37

The first thing I'm going to lead with is your fun fact for the day.

1:41

Some people take that as a personal thing and kind of relay some of the, we had

1:45

a, we had arena on a

1:46

couple of weeks back and we managed to use super glue on her mouth instead of some Vaseline for her lips or something, I can't quite remember.

1:53

That was an interesting admission, which I think she regretted in the end, to be fair to her.

1:57

Yours is much more business related.

1:59

I'll spare your audience some of my disasters. Mine, I think is really relevant to this.

2:03

It's the statistics someone shared with me ages ago from, I believe it was Sheffield University did some research certainly a Northern English University, which is, If you're someone that can highlight a problem to a prospect, there's an 80 percent chance that you can be the person to win that business.

2:19

And I think that actually going out there and quite happily, but going, actually, look, here's what you probably didn't know.

2:26

And here's what, something that's different and really backing yourself.

2:28

That's, yeah, you highlight that issue of someone, an 80 percent chance that you basically become the trusted advisor and help them solve that.

2:34

I think it's very pertinent and who knows, might come up again in the next 15 minutes.

2:39

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it sounds like something that you've I'm guessing you've grasped onto it because it's something that you hold close and dear to you as well.

2:46

Like it's, and it's worked for you in the past. So I'd be interested to cover that off a little bit.

2:50

I, if I remember a quote that I was told when I started selling SAS software about four or five years ago, it was along the lines that the more senior you get to, in terms of who you need to pitch your product.

3:03

To, or a service to, the more job you need to do to highlight to, to, to time of what you said, you need to highlight something new to them.

3:11

They probably already know all the problems that are in the marketplace that are commonplace that most people try and solve, but if you highlight something brand new to them, that's how you sell to certainly c-suite director level and sees of businesses.

3:26

So I, I think that ties in quite nicely with what you said.

3:30

Certainly something I've experienced. Yeah,

3:36

to your point, it's actually, if you're turning up something new, it's getting them to, stop in their tracks and think differently.

3:42

And ultimately, that means that if you're selling to somebody, Lower down that purchasing food chain, um, somebody on the technical, if it's a software or an engineering manager in a factory, it's arming them with that to go and take so they can get their boss's attention with.

3:59

Hey boss, did you know that we're, losing this much money over here?

4:03

The and just getting people to think differently because then you've got their attention.

4:06

You can engage and you can you can enthuse about something in a different way because you've got their undivided attention rather than, yeah, sounding like the same thing they've heard 10 times in the last month.

4:16

Exactly that. So then, could I actually just rewind a little bit, James, and if you could share with us some of the experience that you've had in your career.

4:24

How have you gotten where you are? Cause, like me, I think you I qualified as a software engineer many years ago, and I believe you qualified as an actual engineer.

4:31

Somebody who actually does the work and not sits behind a keyboard and pretends to do the work like me.

4:40

and yeah lovely way to think of it, but yes, I yeah, I started my career as an engineer.

4:46

So I qualified, I did a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering, albeit I majored in software and basically cut my teeth as a general engineer.

4:56

I worked in all sorts of things. I literally made pieces for nuclear submarines, battery chargers for helicopters.

5:03

Things for electrostatically spraying sea potatoes.

5:06

It was like, yeah, all sorts of just, but it was a great grounding, which I think has actually set me up for success in many ways.

5:12

For my first experience in terms of running, growing, exiting a business I was Number six into a business in Nottingham where I'm speaking to you today.

5:22

And we basically invented a new solution around printing best before dates on bags, literally, date codes on bags of crisps, whatever it might be.

5:31

It was, I think one of those first examples of actually turn up in saying, actually look, there's a, you've got a completely different problem.

5:37

Cause people were thinking about reliability of the machinery.

5:40

But. The old John Bull printers that were stamping on packs, we did all sorts of things like punching holes in packs and there was no ability for any low level traceability, so we basically, we took a business, I was employee number 6 built a product rather than a service.

5:57

Took that internationally, took some of the largest orders in that industry in the globe at the time.

6:04

A million pounds might not seem a lot now, but that basically was enough to fit out the entirety of the 200 plus walkers packaging lines in the UK at that time.

6:14

We took that on to do a trade sale. Worked in a larger organization and gave my experience in terms of working in global sales and marketing.

6:21

That product is still a global market leader 20 years later.

6:24

So it's evidence to the job that we did. I'm still proud of.

6:27

LEFT started a software business to actually control packaging machinery back in the days before the cloud, so it was on premise software but a very different experience launching a software business.

6:38

And again, it was about changing things. People make so many mistakes in factories, but they just live with them, cause they go, it's human error.

6:45

So they have a computer that tells them what best before date to print on a pack.

6:49

They then write that down somewhere to go and type essentially into another computer on the production line rather than going, if I can join these two computers together, they don't think of them as computers because packaging machinery, but join them together, remove human error, and actually have enormous benefits around in terms of shelf life, availability, etc.

7:06

Again, took that on to be another trade sale in parallel with another machinery business at the time.

7:12

So I actually had my feet in two camps that point in time.

7:15

That led me into consulting in the retail space where I had the pleasure of working with some of the big retailers like Asda, Sainsbury's, Tesco, and some of their best practice.

7:23

And led me into the area I've spent the last decade as I was CEO of a company called Supply Pilot, which was helping the major retailers.

7:30

Such as some of our named or Walmart in America or Woolworths in Australia.

7:35

Engage their suppliers to drive change and sustainability.

7:38

A lot of parallels of how you drive change with sales and marketing.

7:43

Interestingly, it's about getting people to do what you want them to do.

7:46

That was a trade sale in the autumn of last year.

7:50

Since then I've returned to independent consulting, which I've done in between along the way.

7:54

So I do business advising, non executive directors, chairs, et cetera, as well as business speaking.

8:00

So the areas that are close to my heart about driving change and sustainability as well as just general business advice.

8:07

So hopefully very relevant today.

8:09

People literally, how do you grow and scale a business?

8:12

I've been there from startup whether it be seed funding or VC funding, going, creating markets, positioning your brand.

8:20

So yeah, welcome the chance to share some of that experience.

8:24

A lot of it's from learning through your own mistakes.

8:27

Yeah, share some of those.

8:28

some might say what you've done is being a really good generalist.

8:32

And I hate the word generalist because I don't believe in it.

8:35

I actually believe that somebody who has done so many different roles and profiles, you do it because there's an underlying thing that you're very good at and it's a challenge.

8:44

The ability to be flexible in what you do.

8:46

And I'm, I come from a similar sort of background.

8:48

I've done lots and lots of different roles. And, I've been successful at each of them purely because there's an underlying set of tasks that are done in each job that I get an immense satisfaction from which motivates me to do the other things.

9:02

I'd imagine it's something similar for yourself from the sound of things.

9:06

Certainly do interesting you use the word generalist.

9:09

Someone's once described me as a specialist generalist,

9:12

Yep.

9:13

was a very interesting way of putting it. Think a lot of it goes back to the engineering background, which as you said, Paul we share a bit, albeit, just on the software side, I think, cause It's problem solving.

9:22

For me when I was consulting with retail, it was, helping solve the problem, not how to have a best practice, but how do I stop making mistakes in my supply chain?

9:32

How do I improve sustainability? How do I improve traceability, et cetera?

9:37

I think a lot of running a business is problem solving.

9:39

It's whether they be internal with people, skills, et cetera.

9:43

The, I've always, um, leaned, leant towards the go to market side of things.

9:49

So even though I started as an engineer, I very quickly decided I didn't want to spend my life sat behind a computer screen.

9:55

And therefore went from engineering into project management, into account management and sales management.

10:00

I think a career that took about Yeah. 18 months, 20 months.

10:03

It was a very natural thing, but it goes right back to my fun fact.

10:07

I actually think really good salespeople are, it's about solving a problem for somebody.

10:12

There are many books that talk about, solution selling or versions of that, like spin selling, et cetera.

10:18

It's it's about being able to articulate and understand the client's problem and then articulate how whatever you're going to do is going to help them solve that problem.

10:27

So I think it's the problem solving side.

10:30

I'm also relatively gregarious, which is probably again, why I ended up in, go to market stuff rather than sat behind a computer.

10:36

Cause there's nothing more I enjoy actually working with people in person.

10:39

That makes sense. That makes sense.

10:43

I guess for me, there's something in that determination to change things for people, the desire to solve problems.

10:53

I think I actually genuinely believe that a really good salesperson, natural, as most people would term it, a natural salesperson, always comes at things in where commercials are almost a secondary thought.

11:06

It's not. It's a place of value and service, like genuine desire to solve the problems and issues for people.

11:13

And the fact that money comes out the back end of that is just a side effect.

11:19

And I always find like the people that are, Todd Caporni says it really well, salespeople are coin operated if that's the way you treat them.

11:29

It boils down from the

11:31

Yeah. The

11:31

down to

11:33

I think it's also quite interesting because in that context I've never viewed myself as being, a great salesperson.

11:41

Actually, I think I'm more a marketeer and actually the go to market strategy first and foremost, but I've also been very fortunate, which I've only ever sold what I genuinely think is the best of what it is.

11:53

And everything I've done. Now, some of that, if you're party to inventing it, you're gonna, you're gonna think like that, aren't you?

11:58

But I remember going back to that early career where we were launching innovative new equipment.

12:05

I was bumping into same sales guys. And I was winning 80 percent of the time, which is great, and I was enjoying the bonus and it was all fantastic.

12:13

But I actually remember, I still remember, don't know if Phil Thomas is still in the industry.

12:17

If he does, here's a shout out. He was a better sales guy than me cause he beat me 20 percent of the time, but I got the best product by a long way.

12:25

Yeah, so it's really interesting when I think about it when selling it's the so yeah yeah, fortunate, made it that way, et cetera.

12:34

I don't know, but I think there's and that's possibly one of the tips to some of the SME owners that could be listening here is knowing when to go and hire a sales.

12:43

In an early stage of an entrepreneurial business, being your own advocate, having that enthusiasm, knowing inside out, et cetera, is really important to win those early adopters and those innovators anyone's familiar with.

12:57

Yeah. Crossing the chasm. That's the first part of launching a new product or service.

13:01

Anyone not familiar with that expression, I recommend go get the book and read Crossing the Chasm.

13:05

Cause it's a really interesting insight into growing a business and turning mainstream.

13:11

But there comes a point where you've got to know your own strengths and say, actually, what I need is I need a sales guy who is happy to literally just knock on the doors every day and do what it takes to make this happen.

13:22

So yeah, that's one of the things is knowing what your skill is, being the best.

13:28

person to close a deal isn't necessarily the best person to start a deal, for example.

13:32

So yeah, just recognizing where your strengths and weaknesses are.

13:36

Yeah, absolutely, I think that's fair. And, it leads in quite nicely to, some of the conversation that you've said there around one of the main questions that I ask each guest is For you, if you were to advise an SME who's just starting out their own business right now, whether it's products or services, what's the one bit of marketing advice that you would give to them that will drive the most success for them in the coming years?

14:02

Or keep them afloat at least?

14:04

I think, so this is partly based on my own experience, but now as an independent advisor, I'm talking to a number of different businesses and it's really about knowing who is your target customer?

14:15

Who's that target audience? And staying laser sharp in terms of trying to talk to that audience.

14:23

There's a lot of talk at the moment. If I step back a little bit, um, the world changed with COVID.

14:29

People aren't in offices. It was hard enough to get past the receptionist to talk to somebody four years ago.

14:34

But people aren't in the office anymore. They don't go to events the same as they used to before.

14:38

Getting to talk to the person, that right person, really hard.

14:42

And therefore, there's lots of people selling marketing advice of here's how you create lots of content and send it to everybody and it's all about scattergramming everything.

14:51

And you basically lose, you lose sight of your own messaging and lose sight of the target.

14:56

So it's clearly, it's very different if you've got a large scale, B2C business where everyone's a prospective customer or a B2B business where you're actually, so supply pilot, we were trying to talk to the major retailers.

15:08

There are only 10 in the UK, argue, maybe not necessarily 10, it's a short list.

15:13

You don't need to be in every newspaper to talk to them cause you know where they live kind of thing.

15:18

Obsessed with the number of followers, the number of clicks, the number of views, cause that's what all the tools are all set them up to do.

15:24

So there's somebody I know on the sustainability front they were.

15:28

Really focused on saying to people, look, you need to truly do a life cycle analysis and truly understand the depth of where all the carbon is in your product.

15:38

Then their marketing, they were getting into all sorts of issues and conversations with people around, let's comment on this packaging change.

15:45

Let's comment on this over here, which is actually fueling the, let's do little bits and pieces.

15:50

Let's just change the packaging. Let's just do this, because.

15:53

Packaging is really easy for everyone. Everyone's got packaging, so everyone talks about it.

15:56

But your message just gets diluted and lost.

15:59

Really make sure you know who your target is, and put your effort into how do you speak to those people.

16:05

And if it's really hard, that's possibly good, cause it might genuinely be a blue ocean for you to go and find something other people can't do.

16:12

But if you don't do that, you also will never really know whether you're winning or losing.

16:17

Yeah. You might have something your target audience don't want, but if you can speak to them, you can learn, you can evolve, et cetera.

16:23

If you just get busy trying to say, I've got more clicks than everybody else on LinkedIn, TikTok, Vireness, etc.

16:29

It's a dilution. So apologies, that's quite a rambling answer, but it's just quite ironic, given the advice is stay focused.

16:36

That gives you a rambling answer, but it's really understand who you want to talk to.

16:41

And if I can go to a second one, I think, and with that.

16:45

Make sure your sales process is there for fit for purpose.

16:49

So again, there's lots of people selling, here's this, here's the fantastic sales model.

16:55

Here's how it works, et cetera. Yeah.

16:57

It's very different if you're trying to sell a widget for somebody to, that's available, relevant to, I don't know, every man over 40, you've got an audience of 10 million to go at, it's, it can be a very simple volume based funnel.

17:10

If you've got a complex SaaS sale, for example.

17:15

Then, actually, you won't sell to one person, you're going to have to get multiple stakeholders, you need to make sure you know who the financial buyer is, who the leader is, how do I take it to CTO, and therefore this tool.

17:27

So we adopted Miller Hyman, for example, in the last business as a way of reviewing those complex sales.

17:33

But it's making sure what you've got is appropriate for what you're trying to sell, because sadly there's rarely a quick fix.

17:40

And that's, I think, why people get sucked into the numbers thing is, if I can throw enough mud on there, I'm going to get something.

17:46

And not necessarily, you might just spend an awful lot of money.

17:51

Marketing badly to lots of the wrong people.

17:53

there's two things that probably create the most bubble.

17:57

One, people are, there's so many things that go into that to be fair by the way.

18:05

People are scared of talking to a very niche potential client base, rather than their total possible market.

18:15

Because they're worried that they'll lose customers who are interested.

18:20

might hear their message but it doesn't pertain well to them because they've been targeted specifically a really small niche customer section.

18:29

And for those people who are worried about that I've done both.

18:32

I can promise you that talking to everyone, you are just shouting into the void and you will get very little response back.

18:38

You might get some response but it won't, it'll be hard to work, it'll be hard to win and the likelihood is it won't convert.

18:44

When you start to get much more niched. And I'm still perfecting this, I'm still learning it, it's never a finished process.

18:51

The more niche you can be, the easier the conversations are when people do respond.

18:57

And the more likely people are to respond because they feel like you're talking directly to them.

19:01

And then I think the other side of things with that is

19:04

Paul. I think it's but what you've, once you've got that audience, linking back to where we came into the conversation, you've got to make sure you're talking about their problem.

19:12

They want to talk, yeah, how are you going to solve their problem?

19:16

They don't want to know what your sex new widget is.

19:20

When I'm inviting and talking to people early in their journey from a consulting point of view, you've Even just looking at their investor decks, everyone wants to say they've got AI now, or they're using blockchain, and and my question to all of you is do I want blockchain?

19:35

Yeah, why is that clever? Yeah, haven't you just added, Complications, costs, processing, issues with, my client's going to talk about the green impact, etc.

19:45

If there's a really good reason, tell me the problem you're solving.

19:49

The fact that this actually happens to be solved by blockchain is probably on page 4, yeah?

19:55

Tripping into these buzzwords and talking about you.

19:58

And again, just like you, you were humble enough to say, Paul, I know this the mistake.

20:03

We've been there, and I still make mistakes. It's very easy to fall back into the trap when you get excited about something, but you're going to make sure you're talking to them about, here's the problem you've got or the opportunity you could have.

20:15

Ideally, I'm the first person to tell you, cause as we've already said, I've spent chance, I now get the order.

20:19

But then, how am I going to actually solve that for you, is what really makes all of the difference.

20:26

You need to ruminate on it a little bit.

20:28

It's not something that, that, when you hear it, it's really powerful, but then there's a moment of so how do I do that?

20:34

Is, if I was selling a swimming pool to someone, I'm not actually selling the swimming pool.

20:39

What I'm selling is them having a relaxing afternoon on a Friday after they've finished work, swimming in their pool in their garden.

20:46

And the feelings that go with that, they don't care about whether there's a swimming pool or not.

20:51

What they care about is that afternoon of relaxation.

20:53

That's what they're passionate about, cause that's where the emotion comes in.

20:57

And so if you're a business owner, regardless of what you sell, regardless of whether it's services or products, you need to capitalize on the feelings and the really, like I always say to people, think about what they must mourn to their partner about over the dinner table.

21:11

When the kids are in bed what are the things that keep them up at night, or to your point earlier on, what are the things that indicate there's something that's a problem, but they don't know even what the problem is, they just know what's causing a problem for them.

21:25

And it might be that they're three steps away and you need to take them on that journey to say, do you know what, you probably feel this, and that's because of this.

21:34

That is an indicator of this problem here, which we solved.

21:37

It's also being relatable, isn't it? You're not going to, you're not going to go and market to a street of ex council houses trying to sell them Olympic swimming pools, Sikkimese swimming pool example.

21:49

Real simple example technical service company really good company, they've been a supplier to me in the past, I can recommend without question, but.

21:57

was looking at their go to market strategy, and their target customers are SMEs.

22:03

But they've also been fortunate, they've done projects with big organizations like the NHS in the past, right?

22:09

So they've put those logos on their webpages, Hey, we've worked with the NHS, we've worked with ASDA, whatever it might be, right?

22:15

If you're trying to sell to an SME, You've just made it unrelatable.

22:20

We made the mistake, again, we learned from mistakes, when we, our first client on the global scale as Supply Pilot, used to be called S4RB was Walmart.

22:29

And we were very proud, as we should have been, that we'd basically landed Walmart as a client, but we shouted about it to the point that actually a bunch of even other big global retailers were going, oh, we can't afford it.

22:41

If Walmart are buying, we can't afford it. We're going no.

22:44

We completely missed the point. You've got to be relatable.

22:46

This is where knowing who you want to talk to, um, is a challenge.

22:52

I mentioned in a flash just there, we used to be called S4RB.

22:55

But so we, the business I got involved in doing this supply chain software 10 years ago was called S4RB, Solutions Red Dead Runs.

23:03

we rebranded around the time of COVID to focus more around sustainability for a number of reasons.

23:08

One is we all really want to make an impact on sustainability.

23:11

Retail wasn't listening to us because they were too busy about supply chain issues at COVID.

23:16

We'd spent years building an audience in retail where actually we say what we do is just as relevant to.

23:22

CPG brands like an SC Johnson or whatever, and actually redefining that and re messaging was a real challenge.

23:31

It's one of the, one of the things that I'm most proud of and what we've achieved cause we did it well.

23:36

And obviously we've done it well enough that we went on to sell the business.

23:40

So obviously it was a call out success, but it's really interesting.

23:44

We just look back and go, it's not just what you say.

23:46

It's all those subliminal messages. Like I say, of sticking these big logos on your thing of who do I want to talk to?

23:53

So it comes back to that same learning of really going, what's my process and who do I want to sell to?

23:58

And it's much more valuable to spend my time having four really good conversations this month where I'm going to go and sell two of those guys than having 400 poor conversations that are diluting all of the effort in those early stage businesses.

24:15

So, comes back to the same point.

24:18

So then I guess just before we, we wrap up for the episode what's, in a similar vein what's one thing that you wish small business owners would stop wasting time, effort, money, whatever, on in, in their early stages that is actually hindering them or just a waste of time and money?

24:36

I think it's a risk of a little bit of repetition, but it's this, what I really need to know is make sure again, what does a good order look like?

24:45

Probably think of it that way. I just ignore sales in math for a second.

24:48

What does a good order look like?

24:51

That's going to be a size of order, location, type of customer, market, et cetera.

24:56

And then go, okay, who do I want to talk to where that's going to be a good order?

24:59

Definitely it's got to be good for them. They're not going to place the order.

25:02

Why is it good for me? And therefore learning to say, no.

25:07

good sales guy and use expression of, coin operated, and some of the best ones are coin operated, just wind them up and they're going to go to, is the is, They're ruthless at going, I'm not going to talk to that person cause they're not going to place an order, I'm not going to get permission, so I'm going to move on to the next one.

25:22

So it's really about having those quality conversations that are focused on the customer and the value, not on the customer.

25:34

More and more clever, exciting ways to describe why my widget's the sexiest, best, whatever.

25:40

Cause that's not what people are doing. They're buying swimming pools.

25:42

What's the other, people don't buy drills, they buy holes.

25:44

It's it's that kind of, it's, what are you really doing for them?

25:47

What's that real value? And that's not just, their sales and marketing it's in everything that they do, their product management choices.

25:55

If you've got a cloud based software business, are the developers building the features that are essential to get those projects that are going to be successful?

26:03

Or is everyone getting busy adding all sorts of, things that, might really be needed in three years time.

26:08

It ripples, ripples across the whole business.

26:12

So it's. It's being focused on that again, my engineering background, um, studied a lot around Lean, Six Sigma, et cetera.

26:21

They've got this expression Go to Gemba. So it's a Japanese term.

26:24

I think the literal meaning is the real place.

26:28

In Six Sigma terms, it's where the work is done, out, go visit your customers, go into their factory and look at the problems they've got to make sure it's a fit, et cetera.

26:38

So you're talking their language, not your jargon, their problem, not your sexy toy.

26:45

And that ultimately will fuel Yeah, you will hit a rich seam where you go, fantastic, I've suddenly found a way that's really relevant to these people.

26:55

And then I might want to throw volume. I want to put my money in there and I'm going to really chase that.

27:00

Now I've got a rich seam, I'm going to mine it for all it's worth.

27:03

But that's the thing in the early days, it's finding where those are.

27:07

the confidence to stay focused when actually the orders aren't coming at quite the pace you want to do.

27:14

And sadly also having the confidence where you go, I really hit this, tried this long enough, I need to go mining somewhere else now, but at least I've stuck to my guns and therefore I really know whether it's worked or not.

27:25

Perfect. I hope everybody who's listening to the show got an absolute ton out of today's episode.

27:30

I think it's been really insightful. I've really enjoyed chatting with you, James.

27:33

If anybody wants to reach out and find a bit more about what you're currently doing, how can they find you?

27:39

Easiest way, look find me on LinkedIn got examples of what I do, got some examples of my talking, your, Recognize this ugly mug on the picture.

27:46

So yeah, just James Butcher.

27:48

The company is Inoscope, but yeah, just find me on LinkedIn.

27:51

And very happy to speak if I can share my value.

27:55

Make sure you're in the show notes as we launch it.

27:59

James, it's been a pleasure. Thanks very much for coming on the show and I hope you have a fantastic week.