0:03

Hi guys, welcome

0:03

back to a whole new episode of

0:06

the mastering agility podcast.

0:06

This series aims to inspire you

0:10

and others by bringing in the

0:10

best of the business. My name is

0:13

Sander Dur, and I'm your host.

0:13

Today I'm talking to my friend

0:18

Ryan Brook, and how he and I

0:18

became a professional scrum

0:22

trainer for scrum the door. Now,

0:22

even though the journey itself

0:26

the outlines are written down

0:26

very clearly on the website of

0:29

Scrum, that org experiences and

0:29

the journey itself may vary

0:33

depending on your skills, your

0:33

expertise, your experience, and

0:37

so on. So in this episode, we'll

0:37

be honing in on our respective

0:41

journeys, and what our

0:41

challenges were, and what we

0:44

learned what we discovered when

0:44

their frustrations were anything

0:48

when it comes to becoming a

0:48

professional scrum trainer. If

0:51

you want to know more

0:51

specifically, if you want to ask

0:54

more questions, join the

0:54

mastering agility discord

0:57

community. We'll be happy to ask

0:57

answer you all of your

1:01

questions, as well as connect

1:01

you to other aspiring and

1:05

inspiring Angeles around the

1:05

world. Hope to see you guys

1:08

there. Let's dive into our

1:08

conversation. Ryan, my friend,

1:13

welcome to the show. How are you doing?

1:16

Oh, I'm doing well. Sander. How you doing, my friend?

1:18

I'm doing well, too,

1:18

man. Really glad that we're

1:21

finally here. We've been

1:21

discussing this recording this

1:25

podcast for ever. It feels like

1:25

what are we? What are we talking

1:30

about

1:30

it? And he'd been at

1:30

least six to eight months,

1:32

doesn't it?

1:34

I think so. Yeah.

1:36

if not longer.

1:38

What are we going to talk about?

1:41

Well, I think we're

1:41

going to talk about our PST

1:43

journeys becoming trainers for

1:43

scrum.org Is that what you had

1:47

in mind was

1:47

definitely you know,

1:47

that's a topic that we had

1:50

indeed have been discussing

1:50

forever. Like, just to give you

1:55

guys a little bit of an overview

1:55

of what happened here. Ryan and

1:59

I have been in the PSD candidate

1:59

channel for I think for for over

2:04

a year. And during the entire

2:04

time, we've been discussing as

2:08

soon as we're both BSD we should

2:08

do a podcast episode on this.

2:13

Unfortunately, it took me

2:13

forever to finally get the

2:16

stamp. But we're here now we're

2:16

good. We can talk about it.

2:20

Well, hey, you did

2:20

it man. You did it. Yeah. took

2:23

me longer. No. But

2:23

we're How are you liking the

2:28

community the whole PSD

2:28

community the experience so far.

2:32

I mean, the

2:32

community is fantastic. So since

2:34

becoming a PSD in when was it

2:34

for me, July of 2021. The

2:40

community is just so welcoming.

2:40

You know, we have trainers who

2:43

have been training professional

2:43

scrum for 10 plus years, and

2:49

they've got newbies like me and

2:49

you. And everyone is able to ask

2:54

questions, ask stupid things,

2:54

right. I think the bit I've

2:59

particularly loved is that I

2:59

always assumed as trainers,

3:04

there was an expectation that

3:04

we'd know everything about

3:06

Scrum. However, as you well

3:06

know, we all ask each other

3:11

questions. You know, we have

3:11

this question in the class. What

3:13

do you think? Because I don't

3:13

know the answer. And that's the

3:16

bit I love about the community,

3:16

right? There's no such thing as

3:20

anyone knowing everything, and

3:20

it makes me feel at home.

3:23

I think that was one

3:23

of the main takeaways. After I

3:27

finished my bachelor's.

3:27

Initially, I thought, hey, I'm

3:30

done. I pass it. I've got my my

3:30

diploma in the pocket. I got my

3:36

degree. I felt like I knew

3:36

everything. And then I got my

3:40

first work and experience and

3:40

the first thing that I learned

3:43

and it still sticks and

3:43

resonates with me to this day

3:46

that I don't know shit, I don't

3:46

know anything. And that's the

3:51

same.

3:51

That's that's also

3:51

aligns with being a scrum master

3:54

though, right? Yeah, definitely. It's

3:56

sometimes it feels

3:56

like people come up to me, Hey,

3:58

you know everything about Scrum?

3:58

Well, that's not how I feel. I

4:02

do know my my side of the story,

4:02

but I definitely do not know

4:05

everything.

4:07

So that's certainly

4:07

true. I think the more you, the

4:11

more you become experienced, the

4:11

more you realize you don't know.

4:15

Yeah. And that's okay. I love

4:15

that bit. I love the fact that

4:18

we are never done learning.

4:18

Because Scrum and becoming a

4:22

PSD, I found a deeply human

4:22

process. It wasn't about

4:25

execution of a task of certain

4:25

steps. It was learning it was

4:30

the value is in the journey, not

4:30

in the not in the destination or

4:34

not in the badge itself.

4:35

How do you feel

4:35

about having impostor syndrome?

4:42

Joe was a really

4:42

good question. And it's, it's

4:45

the reason I'm pausing over that

4:45

question is because I got asked

4:48

it the other day in a PSM two

4:48

class, someone said, How do I

4:51

know if I'm good enough? And it

4:51

made me reflect on the same

4:54

question, how do I know if I'm

4:54

good enough? And I think the

4:59

answer is yes. I mean, I do feel

4:59

impostor syndrome. I'll be

5:03

honest, I felt it more earlier

5:03

in my journey. Because I felt

5:08

like I was trying to compare

5:08

myself to these people with an

5:12

eye, like you're referring to it

5:12

as a badge, it very much felt

5:14

like that it was almost a mark

5:14

of quality of a trainer. And I

5:18

still do believe that that is a

5:18

case. But I was comparing my

5:21

knowledge against these people.

5:21

And I spoke to a wonderful

5:25

mutual colleague of ours is

5:25

Ariane. And he said, You

5:28

wouldn't believe the rubbish

5:28

sometimes trainers come out with

5:33

he said, we don't know

5:33

everything. But we will talk to

5:36

people we will learn and we will

5:36

work together. And I think

5:39

that's how I overcame my

5:39

imposter syndrome by realizing

5:42

that I think everyone feels it

5:42

equally. And therefore, it's not

5:46

something I need to be concerned

5:46

about. But how about you

5:49

still have the same

5:49

experience more or less? Same, I

5:54

had the same same discussion

5:54

with zerion as well. He's a good

5:57

friend of mine. But for

5:57

instance, when I look at you,

6:02

I'm deeply impressed with your

6:02

teaching skills, the way that

6:05

you teach the way that you

6:05

convey a message, the calmness

6:09

in your voice and the way that

6:09

you can bring that purpose of

6:13

Scrum where the core of each and

6:13

your individual part across. And

6:18

I think that I have that with

6:18

lots of people were deeply

6:22

appreciate and admire certain

6:22

aspects.

6:25

That it's very kind,

6:25

thank you.

6:30

you're most welcome.

6:30

I'm not going to say jealousy,

6:32

but it's one of the things that

6:32

I've really the admiration, but

6:35

that does make me feel sometimes

6:35

having impostor syndrome.

6:42

So I think that it's

6:42

actually something we spoke

6:44

about the other day about being

6:44

ki shaped. For those people

6:47

listening. T shaped is a concept

6:47

where you have lots of different

6:50

skills, but different depths in

6:50

each of them. And so like Sander

6:53

said, he, I mean, very

6:53

thankfully was in awe of my my

6:56

teaching and conveying of a

6:56

message, I'm in awe of his

6:59

ability to actually tell a story

6:59

and make it really personable. I

7:03

don't know whether it's the

7:03

British in me. But sometimes we

7:06

can come across quite cold. We

7:06

can be concise, but the way in

7:11

which we come across, we don't

7:11

use a lot of intonation in our

7:14

voice. And so maybe so you know,

7:14

we all are in awe of different

7:19

people. So I think that's why we

7:19

maybe all feel impostor

7:21

syndrome, because we all want to

7:21

be this perfect, rounded,

7:26

individual, professional scrum

7:26

trainer. And I don't think a

7:29

perfect trainer exists. We all

7:29

like different things.

7:33

Did you ever want to

7:33

be the best trainer? The best

7:36

PSD ever?

7:40

Oh, well, that's an

7:40

interesting question. Do I want

7:42

to be the best? Of course,

7:42

actually, you know what, yeah,

7:47

I'm gonna say I do. Of course, I

7:47

want to be the best. But I want

7:50

to be the best not for me, for

7:50

the students. And I think it's

7:54

important that after class, we

7:54

iterate, we increment, we say,

7:57

What could we do better. So when

7:57

I say the best, I think I just

8:00

mean, the best I can be. I don't

8:00

necessarily mean the best out of

8:05

the 300 and approximate 60

8:05

trainers that we've got. It's

8:09

not about, you're not my

8:09

competition sander. I know from

8:14

a business perspective, we could

8:14

argue that, but you're my friend

8:17

and my colleague, and I learn

8:17

things from you. And people

8:20

learn things from me. So yeah, I

8:20

just want to be the best that I

8:24

can do. And I'll take those Lego

8:24

bricks and build my pedagogy

8:28

from other people as well.

8:31

Because sometimes

8:31

that looking back at myself and

8:34

my own downfalls and the way I

8:34

went into a burnout million

8:38

years ago. And I always felt

8:38

like I had I was part of this

8:43

competition. And in during this

8:43

PST process, I've been mainly in

8:47

competition with myself. But

8:47

reflecting back, I know that if

8:52

I don't pay really good

8:52

attention to myself, I can

8:55

compare myself to others as well

8:55

and try to make that a

8:58

competition. Like I got to beat

8:58

that. And luckily, I kind of

9:04

dropped that that attitude. I

9:04

think so hope so. At least it

9:08

feels that way. But it can

9:08

imagine that it sometimes is is

9:15

easy for others to have such a

9:15

such a mindset as well. So

9:18

that's why I was wondering

9:18

whether that's just me or you

9:23

have the same experience. So

9:23

thanks for being that we think

9:26

that open.

9:27

Do you think there's a

9:27

good level of impostor syndrome?

9:31

Yeah, makes you better by having

9:31

it

9:34

I think it's a

9:34

really fine balance. Really fine

9:38

walk between imposter syndrome

9:38

and arrogance. And I think

9:42

that's that's a point where you

9:42

get to be very mindful of if you

9:47

if you're not going to, you

9:47

should have at least 40% A

9:54

feeling of impostor syndrome,

9:54

just to keep you on edge of your

9:58

development. What do you think?

10:02

Yeah, I think you

10:02

have to want to, I mean, I have

10:04

no idea about a number. And even

10:04

if we did quantify it, I think

10:07

it's different for different

10:07

people. But I think the right

10:11

amount of impostor syndrome is

10:11

perhaps as long as it's driving

10:14

you to improve. I think that's

10:14

okay. And maybe it doesn't come

10:20

from imposter syndrome. Maybe

10:20

that drive, maybe it comes from

10:22

something else. But I think what

10:22

I'm trying to say is that we all

10:24

need something that drives us

10:24

forward. And I think for a lot

10:27

of people, it is this feeling of

10:27

not inadequacy, but just the

10:32

fact that we aren't perfect. And

10:32

I think that's great, right? Our

10:36

products in scrum are never

10:36

perfect. That's why we get

10:38

feedback on them. And we review.

10:38

And I think that becoming a

10:43

scrum trainer is, you know, hey,

10:43

we've got to be empirical about

10:47

it. So let's improve together.

10:50

Perfect answers.

10:50

Speaking of drive, by the way,

10:52

what's your drive in the

10:52

beginning to start this whole

10:55

PSD journey?

10:58

was a, it's a good question. It's actually quite simple one to answer. So I first

11:00

made my application in February

11:06

2020, having just come back from

11:06

seeing the front France, rugby

11:11

player in six nations against

11:11

England. And I'm fairly certain

11:14

I had COVID at the time, but I

11:14

didn't know it because COVID

11:17

Wasn't, we didn't really know

11:17

that much about it. So I was

11:21

feeling poorly. And I just

11:21

thought, you know what, there's

11:24

something going on in the other

11:24

side of the world. And it was a

11:28

pandemic, and suddenly, people

11:28

were dying. And I thought, You

11:31

know what, this is something

11:31

that I've always wanted to do.

11:33

So what's holding me back? And

11:33

so it was very much a case of

11:37

not fire and forget, but I'll

11:37

stick an application in. And I

11:40

would much rather live my life

11:40

not having any regrets. And

11:45

hate, as they say, a year and

11:45

was it four months later? I

11:49

passed my peer review. Well,

11:49

yeah, thank you. It's actually

11:53

relatively fast.

11:57

Yeah, I think I

11:57

think I applied at the right

12:00

time. There was there was still

12:00

quite a lot of trainers

12:03

applying, I guess, I guess. And

12:03

understandably, for financial

12:05

reasons, a lot of professional

12:05

scrum trainers or consultants.

12:09

And when COVID was just becoming

12:09

an issue, a lot of people being

12:12

laid off and being released. And

12:12

so there was a need for an

12:15

income. Yeah, I think I was

12:15

maybe just a little bit ahead of

12:19

that. I was encouraged by my PSM

12:19

two trainer, Jay Rahman, awesome

12:25

guy named Jack. And he said, You

12:25

know what, go for it. So I did.

12:31

What about you? What was the

12:31

reason you pulled the trigger?

12:34

Hi,

12:34

I gotta go back three and a half years. Unfortunately, I can't say what

12:36

took me a year. COVID was one

12:42

main factor why it took so long

12:42

because the whole COVID

12:45

situation, especially in the

12:45

beginning of the pandemic, and

12:47

then the lock, the lock down was

12:47

quite mentally heavy. I noticed

12:51

with myself, especially with

12:51

having three kids at home. So

12:57

there was a bit of a sabbatical,

12:57

I guess, of a year, roughly. But

13:02

more than that, and a bit going

13:02

back, and I don't want to treat

13:05

my burnout as my gimmick. But

13:05

that was the point where I had

13:08

to really reconfigure, okay,

13:08

what is it that want to do?

13:11

Where do I get my energy from?

13:11

Where does my passion where's my

13:14

passion somewhere. And I was

13:14

already knowledgeable, a little

13:19

bit knowledgeable about Scrum. I

13:19

passed my PSM one exam already,

13:24

a few years before that. So it

13:24

was that, but it also want to

13:29

make more of an impact on

13:29

people's lives help them

13:32

develop, because as frequent

13:32

listeners of this podcast, might

13:37

have heard me say more often,

13:37

you spend about 30% of your life

13:42

working. So make sure you got

13:42

you have a job that you really

13:46

enjoy. Yet, there are so many

13:46

people who are actively

13:49

disengaged with their work. And

13:49

I felt like that's, that's a

13:53

sucky percentage. Like, I want

13:53

to make some form of a dent,

13:59

even if it's in slightest way to

13:59

help people improve their work

14:03

situation. And for me scrum was

14:03

that, that way that felt so

14:09

natural, so common sensical. I

14:09

felt maybe this would be the

14:13

path for me, let's just start

14:13

exploring it. And I indeed hit

14:17

my ID, my application form. It

14:17

took me two hours to fill the

14:22

entire thing in with all the

14:22

information that I could find

14:25

about my experience myself,

14:25

whatever. What have you. And

14:31

then a couple of weeks later, I

14:31

got the email from Daphne

14:33

saying, Hey, can we talk and

14:33

Daphne Harris, by the way is the

14:37

person in charge of the entire

14:37

PSD process? She is a wonderful

14:41

person shout out to Daphne. She

14:41

took

14:45

No one dare tell us any

14:45

difference. She is a wonderful

14:49

lady.

14:49

Yes, she is tough,

14:49

but fair. She always feels to me

14:56

like the mom of the entire team.

15:01

Yeah, I think so I

15:01

think in a very positive,

15:03

supportive, she's very servant

15:03

leadership and definitely a way

15:08

I can still remember my first

15:08

interview with her, you know, as

15:10

you said, you filled in the

15:10

form. And the advice I always

15:14

give people about that form

15:14

because I like you spent a lot

15:16

of time fitting in. It's an

15:16

invitation to a conversation,

15:21

rather than a formal application

15:21

form. However, at the bottom,

15:24

there's a question, you know, do

15:24

you have a blog? Yeah, I put my

15:28

blog link in and in the

15:28

interview, she said, or in the

15:30

conversation, I should say, she

15:30

said, I've read your blog posts

15:33

Ryan. And at that point, I went,

15:33

Oh my God, what did I say how

15:37

did I write but as Sander said,

15:37

Daphne is a very fair, very

15:44

logical, very kind lady. And she

15:44

just wants a conversation to

15:48

unpick your your theory, your

15:48

ethos around professional Scrum.

15:53

And I really enjoyed that first

15:53

interview, and it really made me

15:55

want to continue it never felt

15:55

like it was hard. I think the

15:59

best interview sometimes just a

15:59

conversation and are just easy.

16:03

What is

16:03

it that that you

16:03

remember most about what is the

16:07

next steps? Let's let's put it

16:07

like that. You You mentioned

16:09

that about your blog. But

16:09

there's more to scramble the

16:13

dork especially Daphne's not

16:13

just looking for your your

16:18

ability to convey the scrum

16:18

framework and to get message and

16:22

how to get that across and how

16:22

to help students. There's more

16:25

to it like they're looking for

16:25

the right personality. How did

16:28

you feel that went down? For

16:28

instance, in your conversation

16:32

with Daphne?

16:36

I think it was something that was being assessed passively. I write a

16:37

lot on LinkedIn. And I just call

16:42

it that don't be a dick

16:42

syndrome. And do you know what I

16:47

think that that's always my when

16:47

I interview people, that's my

16:51

measure of thumb. I care less

16:51

about skill set, and I came care

16:55

more about Will you fit in with

16:55

the community that we've got.

17:01

Because like, I like a good

17:01

scrum team, right heroes don't

17:04

always fit. They might be

17:04

amazing at their scrum

17:09

knowledge, but you need to be a

17:09

rounded person, whether it's

17:13

your pedagogy, an ability to

17:13

train your knowledge of Scrum

17:16

and your mastery living the

17:16

scrum values, your consultancy

17:18

your concision, your ability to

17:18

tell a story. It, it makes a

17:23

trainer, a whole set puzzle.

17:28

Couldn't agree more?

17:28

How long did it take you to get

17:32

from that interview to the next

17:32

step.

17:37

So I guess I don't

17:37

know if you found the same

17:40

sander. But because I applied

17:40

during COVID. The typical

17:45

process that's written on

17:45

scrum.org was very out of sync

17:48

for me, because there was more

17:48

weight. So for those people

17:50

listening, one of the stages is,

17:50

So you first have to pass your

17:54

PSM one at 95%, then you submit

17:54

an application form. And

17:58

following on from that you

17:58

attend the TGT, which is the

18:03

train the trainer. So it's an

18:03

opportunity to attend the class

18:06

two days normal class with

18:06

public students and one day for

18:08

trainers. But because usually

18:08

they were physical, and we just

18:14

gone virtual, there was a bit of

18:14

a delay. So during that time,

18:17

I've actually done the PSM two,

18:17

which you have to pass 85%

18:21

Assuming you're applying for the

18:21

PSM route trainer. And then I

18:26

also had managed to do the PSM

18:26

three, which I needed to pass it

18:29

90% So how long did it take me?

18:29

I did my to it was a year. So

18:39

Feb vi applied in February 2020.

18:39

I did my TTC I think in February

18:44

20. No, it wasn't it was April

18:44

21. So a year in two months it

18:50

took me and then once I'd done

18:50

the TGT it was okay, Ryan,

18:56

you've done your PSM three,

18:56

there's nothing holding us back.

18:58

Let's book a peer review in for

18:58

two months later. And although

19:02

and then. Yeah, I mean, it was

19:02

it was it was a whirlwind. It

19:06

was very much a lot of waiting.

19:06

But like I said it was that

19:09

journey. I'm glad that there was

19:09

an invitation to the Slack

19:13

community. So it's not something

19:13

necessarily that's talked about

19:16

publicly. However, there is a

19:16

candidate community on slack for

19:19

people to ask questions anyone

19:19

coming through. It contains all

19:23

of our most of the professional

19:23

scrum trainers. Some are more

19:26

active than others. And that's

19:26

probably fair to say. We have

19:30

some great people in that

19:30

community as professional scrum

19:33

trainers trying to help people

19:33

out. But it's a place to ask

19:36

questions prep for PSM three.

19:36

Just talk about being a trainer.

19:41

There's also candidate calls

19:41

every once a month because the

19:45

first try first Monday of the

19:45

month. And I think what Daphne

19:50

really tries to do and does it

19:50

very effectively is create a

19:52

community of candidates, even

19:52

though you're not necessarily in

19:56

the professional scrum trainer

19:56

community. You almost are

20:01

because you're a candidate,

20:01

right that the community is, you

20:05

know, encompasses the candidates

20:05

too. I think

20:08

it's kind of looking

20:08

through the window of the PST

20:10

house. Like you're almost not

20:10

able to get in.

20:17

Yeah, mate, say it's

20:17

like trying to get into a bar,

20:19

but you're not 18 just yet.

20:19

Exactly. But you know, sometimes

20:26

the old boys will come out and

20:26

offer you a drink. And we'll

20:29

take you in and talk to you. And

20:29

I felt very much like that. It

20:32

was. It's a great welcoming

20:32

community. And I don't want

20:35

anyone to be put off by thinking

20:35

that it's not for them. As long

20:40

as you meet the criteria.

20:42

You have the right

20:42

mentality, exactly. You can

20:45

always try. I think it's the

20:45

end. If

20:48

you're not sure. Talk to a trainer, talk to people. I mean, I'm always open

20:50

for people to connect. I don't

20:53

know about you, sander. But if you ever want to chat about being one, just drop us a

20:55

LinkedIn message. And we'll

20:58

always have a chat with

20:59

LinkedIn indeed, or

20:59

join the mastering agility

21:01

discord, we're both there, you

21:01

can reach out to us and we'll

21:06

we'll answer everything. Going

21:06

back to the the interview with

21:12

Daphne, what came out of that,

21:12

for me personally, was that I

21:16

needed more experienced because

21:16

I was kind of still kind of

21:18

fresh. And I initially thought,

21:18

Hey, is it going to be I was

21:22

hoping that it wouldn't be a

21:22

hard criteria to have at least

21:27

four years of experience.

21:27

Unfortunately, I didn't meet

21:30

that criteria, criteria. I had

21:30

roughly three years and then so

21:36

that out of that came, please go

21:36

back into the wild, you have the

21:41

right personality, we think you

21:41

would be a great fit. But you

21:44

just need that bit. That bit

21:44

more of experience, and why. And

21:51

initially, it was kinda kinda

21:51

annoyed by that, of course,

21:53

because you hope you can

21:53

advancing, you can do on the fly

21:57

and really fast and go through

21:57

the process just as fast as you

21:59

did. But they're really looking

21:59

for quality stuff. So this is

22:04

one of those steps, even though

22:04

it seems it feels a little bit

22:08

arbitrary to have, okay, this is

22:08

absolutely for years. But as

22:11

making sure that everyone has

22:11

significant experience, taking

22:14

those war stories into the

22:14

training, itself, making that

22:20

much more lively, as well as

22:20

able to connect the actual

22:24

theory to the practice. And then

22:24

we were just discussing this

22:27

before this recording, you have

22:27

to be a consultant, or scrum

22:31

master or whatever, you have to

22:31

be in the field to be able to

22:36

actually build a sufficiently

22:36

sufficient training with enough

22:41

body to it. I know so many

22:41

trainers from other courses from

22:46

other frameworks, from other

22:46

organizations that really own

22:51

the theory, yet haven't ever

22:51

been into the field itself. So

22:56

it makes it very hard to put a

22:56

substantial amount of practical

23:01

examples of those war stories,

23:01

if you will, to sustain the

23:06

theory.

23:07

And I think that's a

23:07

really important point. Because

23:11

when you're in a professional

23:11

scrum class, the majority of

23:15

questions are not can you

23:15

explain to me what a daily Scrum

23:18

is? It's, I have this problem

23:18

with my daily scrum, how have

23:23

you tried to solve it, they are

23:23

about the scenario based

23:26

questions, people would like you

23:26

to help them to fix it. And

23:30

whilst we're not consulting in

23:30

the class, necessarily, there

23:33

are opportunities for us to

23:33

share good practices that people

23:36

might want to take away. And I

23:36

think unless you've been there

23:38

lived it. And you know what, I

23:38

had this guy called John the

23:42

other day in a daily Scrum and

23:42

he was being dick. And this is

23:45

how we approached it. Unless

23:45

you've been there and lived it.

23:48

You cannot share those stories,

23:48

because they're just not true.

23:52

Did you ever have

23:52

had a class teach a class where

23:56

there hasn't been anyone? Who

23:56

asked? Could you tell me how

24:00

this works in practice? How did

24:00

you make this work?

24:05

Never. Right. One of

24:05

the first things that we always

24:09

do is, you know, form a parking

24:09

lot of questions. What questions

24:12

Have you come to this class

24:12

with? And I would go so far as

24:15

to say, I've never even got past

24:15

a parking lot without someone

24:18

trying to say, how would you do

24:18

this? How would you how do you

24:21

improve sprint retrospectives? I

24:21

can't get stakeholders to my

24:25

sprint reviews. How would you do

24:25

it? That's why people come to a

24:30

professional scrum trainer to

24:30

get trained Exactly. Because you

24:33

can absolutely train yourself

24:33

the PSM one, you can read the

24:36

scrum guide, you can learn the

24:36

theory. But I think and I guess

24:39

this is also a bit arrogant, but

24:39

the value that we bring to our

24:42

training is those four years of

24:42

experience minimum and the war

24:46

stories that we can help you to understand.

24:48

Well, yeah, I was

24:48

teaching a PSM class last week,

24:51

and there was there was a person

24:51

who asked you shouldn't really

24:57

do this course or cutting just

24:57

go for The exam well, anyone can

25:02

go for the exam. I mean, you can

25:02

do that with with homeschooling,

25:05

you can do that with studying in

25:05

your own time. The value in

25:09

training is indeed those war

25:09

stories, connecting also with

25:14

peers with people who are in the

25:14

same situation who have the same

25:18

kind of questions. But also in

25:18

the getting, it's not consulting

25:22

itself. But you can ask the

25:22

questions that you have that you

25:25

encounter, in your own practice,

25:25

experience, your own practice,

25:29

environment, there are so many

25:29

people who are stuck with okay,

25:33

like, like the example with the

25:33

daily scrum that you and Brian,

25:36

we're stuck doing this? How

25:36

should I solve that? What do you

25:40

think it's engaging, getting

25:40

those answers to your practice

25:44

situation as well, and not just

25:44

passing the exam? I think, yeah,

25:49

passing the exam should be only

25:49

maybe five to 10% of it.

25:54

And I would argue

25:54

that actually until you've been

25:57

passing the PSM one is very much

25:57

about the theory. You know, you

26:00

get professional scrum master

26:00

one certification. But what

26:04

makes you a true Scrum Master is

26:04

having practiced it and

26:08

experienced it. And the value of

26:08

a class, something we do in the

26:11

PSM two class, is we almost have

26:11

consultancy time at the end of

26:15

the class. So what problems

26:15

would you like to bring to these

26:18

eight or nine consultants here,

26:18

forming those connections? I

26:23

don't know about you, sander. I

26:23

often feel quite alone as a

26:27

scrum master when I'm working in

26:27

an organization, because there's

26:29

not many people are there aren't

26:29

that many Scrum Masters in my

26:33

organization. So I feel almost

26:33

quite alone. I don't have a big

26:38

community of practice that maybe

26:38

some of the developers do. So

26:41

having a training where I can

26:41

talk to people who are enthused

26:44

about Scrum. I just love it. And

26:44

that's why I like being in the

26:47

trainer community as well.

26:49

I'm in a different

26:49

situation because I worked for

26:52

Zevia large consultancy firm

26:52

with people who are absolutely

26:55

passionate about Scrum about

26:55

agility, and not just Scrum,

27:00

anything else, any other

27:00

framework as well. So I have

27:03

really no spirits like Laos,

27:03

Bournemouth. Evaline those

27:08

little bins for your money, you

27:08

name them. Yes, a housing. I

27:12

have people and that's this

27:12

that's relating back to the to

27:16

the imposter syndrome as well.

27:16

These are people that have

27:19

always highly regarded like

27:19

these are to me are absolutely

27:24

top of the bill. And now I can

27:24

work with them. And that to me

27:27

creates so much energy, my work.

27:27

I really love that.

27:32

It's interesting. You mentioned those names because as you will know there's

27:33

a face to face for professional

27:37

scrum trainers coming up in

27:37

Amsterdam at the end of March

27:40

with recording this on the 10th

27:40

of March. And I'm going there

27:43

and I've 30 people invited and

27:43

the names that Sander has just

27:47

mentioned are all going to be

27:47

there these are it's not so far

27:50

to say idols right, you see the

27:50

likes of Gunther verheyen going,

27:54

and I'm just thinking I'm going

27:54

to be in the same room as these

27:58

peoples. How can you not feel

27:58

impostor syndrome? I can look my

28:03

direct eyeline. I've got a book

28:03

123 books by gunfire I've got

28:08

books by Ralph Jaco and Don

28:08

McGreal. I've got there's just

28:13

books and books of these people

28:13

who are going to be present in

28:15

the same room and it's going to

28:15

be amazing Exactly. Speaking

28:18

of Gunther by the

28:18

way, he has been a massive part

28:21

in keeping the energy in my my

28:21

my PSD rotten journey as well.

28:26

Because in the beginning, when I

28:26

just had the discussion with

28:29

Daphne, I was like, Okay, I need

28:29

to advance so I started looking

28:35

into the BCM two class at that

28:35

point. It just got sold by buddy

28:41

buddy over him and QC advisor

28:41

Scrum, the Dorcas, PSM three, or

28:45

PSM two, was completely new. The

28:45

PSM two course is something that

28:49

those guys completely created

28:49

and was so good the scrum the

28:52

org decided to incorporate it.

28:52

So we reached out to them, but

28:56

also reached out to goon Devine

28:56

on LinkedIn just slapping him a

29:00

message and said, I will I want

29:00

to start this I really want to

29:04

do this good. In a good way. Do

29:04

you have some advice for me? And

29:09

then he said, within a couple of

29:09

minutes, he replied to me and

29:13

said, Come to Antwerp. Let's go

29:13

for lunch. And we'll talk

29:18

through I was like what? Like, I

29:18

can just mentioned there kind of

29:24

idols and I definitely felt like

29:24

that. I rarely feel starstruck

29:30

but that at that point it was

29:30

like this is happening.

29:37

Yeah, and they say

29:37

never meet your idols but

29:40

actually with I like to say that

29:40

pretty much all professional

29:43

scrum trainers are just lovely

29:44

PJs, and really good

29:44

time was going through and we

29:47

sat down for a couple of hours,

29:47

which is way more than I

29:51

initially thought and he was so

29:51

down to earth. Such a nice dude.

29:55

And he helped me and He gave me

29:55

really good tips. Good feedback.

30:00

and things that helped me

30:00

throughout the entire to

30:04

throughout the entire journey.

30:04

Also massive shout out to you

30:09

again, I read a blog on, on my

30:09

journey of becoming a PSD. And I

30:13

think this is one of the main

30:13

experience that will always

30:17

stuck will be stuck in my mind

30:17

looking back in this entire

30:23

journey, but indeed, like you

30:23

said, everyone, or most of them,

30:27

at least, are open to anything

30:27

open to any discussion, to

30:33

feedback to helping you for it,

30:33

because that's what really makes

30:37

the PSD community stand out to

30:37

me is anyone's willingness to

30:42

help and to help you improve to,

30:42

to to sit down together, whether

30:45

that's live or through zoom, or

30:45

Riverside, like we're recording

30:51

now. But does just that down to

30:51

earn this. And they're almost

30:57

like, regular people.

31:01

Just almost, I was

31:01

having a conversation with

31:03

someone on Reddit, about two

31:03

days ago, and they had a

31:06

question about something Ralph

31:06

had included in the professional

31:08

product owner book. They said,

31:08

what, what does everyone think

31:11

of this? And I said, Why don't

31:11

you just message him and ask?

31:15

Exactly. You know, these people

31:15

want to talk about their theory

31:19

in their learning. And I'm

31:19

certainly the same, right? If

31:21

you ever read anything of mine,

31:21

just ask, right? I'm certainly

31:25

not saying it's right. Let's

31:25

just have a conversation. Yeah,

31:29

it's, we all love talking about

31:29

Scrum. We geek out about Scrum.

31:33

Is that right? It's under

31:34

way too much.

31:34

Sometimes I feel there's nothing

31:39

else existing in my life at this

31:39

point, and then scrub. But

31:43

that's, that's, that's the

31:43

beauty of it as well, I really,

31:46

really enjoy talking about it,

31:46

working on it, draining it

31:50

writing, grading podcasts like

31:50

this, I really enjoy it. And

31:55

that's also a reflection of

31:55

generosity, community, people

31:57

are just really passionate. I

31:57

think that's the passion is

32:02

what's going to help you go

32:02

through the process.

32:06

I think that's an important thing to add, because the rest of the community want

32:08

you to succeed as well. So the

32:11

final step being a peer review,

32:11

a lot of people think it's quite

32:15

onerous. And it absolutely is

32:15

being effectively interviewed by

32:19

five of your peers, five other

32:19

professional scrum trainers,

32:22

where you take the opportunity

32:22

to teach them something where

32:25

they pretend to be students. And

32:25

then when they try and ask you

32:28

some tricky questions. Again, as

32:28

students, they still want you to

32:32

succeed, nothing is ever

32:32

designed to make you fail. You

32:37

move forward in the process. And

32:37

if you struggle, a hurdle, you

32:40

get feedback and feedback and

32:40

feedback until you overcome the

32:44

hurdle. And that's something I

32:44

heard even in my peer review, it

32:47

didn't go well. I interestingly,

32:47

rewatched the video of my peer

32:51

review yesterday, oh, it was

32:51

cringy. But it was a learning

32:57

opportunity where people were

32:57

giving feedback and saying, Hey,

33:00

why don't you answer a question

33:00

that way? You know, it was

33:02

great.

33:04

Speaking of, of

33:04

overcoming obstacles, the first

33:09

obstacle just for people to have

33:09

and just a general overview of

33:13

how, how these steps are formed.

33:13

I mentioned already the 40 years

33:17

of experience, you got to pass

33:17

the PSM one and 95 95%. B isn't

33:24

to is not a specific requirement

33:24

on any level, just you just got

33:27

to pass it. But then, the

33:27

biggest obstacle for me the

33:31

biggest frustration point ever,

33:31

in my entire journey, the PSM

33:36

three that felt like an absolute

33:36

mountain ride 90% was the

33:43

benchmark took it five freakin

33:43

times and only passed at 9.6

33:54

It's worth saying

33:54

that you still pass 85 is just

33:56

that the so Sander passed

33:56

multiple times to new I think

34:00

I'm

34:00

record holder of PSM

34:00

three at this point.

34:04

But yeah, he's 90%

34:04

required to become a trainer. So

34:07

as Sander said, it's a mountain

34:07

but it's a mountain that you

34:10

know that everyone training

34:10

professional scrum has claimed.

34:13

So it is validation of a

34:13

trainer. And lots of people who

34:17

see taking professional scrum

34:17

master three, they say is it

34:20

worth it? And I say Do you know

34:20

what? Yeah, if you want to

34:23

validate your practice, or if

34:23

you want to become a trainer,

34:25

but honestly don't do it to show

34:25

off or just just to get you a

34:30

job. It won't do that. You know,

34:30

it's just for trainer

34:35

validation. And for kudos

34:35

really?

34:37

Well, some some

34:37

organizations do require you to

34:41

have a certain level of PSM

34:41

knowledge or certificate. So in

34:44

that sense, I do understand if

34:44

people are looking to get it for

34:48

job security or whatever to get

34:48

more out of a job. But indeed,

34:53

it's more of the validation or

34:53

the looking into your ability to

34:59

create a career crisp and

34:59

concise answer to the questions

35:03

being thrown at you. And for

35:03

those who are not familiar with

35:06

how this exam looks like, there,

35:06

let's say 3436 questions out of

35:13

those 95%. So let's say 30 to 34

35:13

are open ended, essay based

35:20

scanning questions. And the

35:20

other ones, the remaining two to

35:23

four are multiple choice, which

35:23

are also hard. But the rest is

35:28

open ended essay based, you have

35:28

not these days, it was two and a

35:32

half hours time box. When I

35:32

started doing this, it was two

35:35

hours. So I had to slam my

35:35

keyboard really fast. But it's

35:41

really looking into Do you know,

35:41

your skill? Do you know your

35:44

Scrum? Do you know how to put it

35:44

into a short and concise

35:49

possible way to convey it? What

35:49

the scrum guide says, as well as

35:54

a little bit of experience story

35:54

without making it too fuzzy? It

35:59

took me five times. And the

35:59

horrible part is if you take it

36:03

twice, or you don't make the 90%

36:03

twice, you have to wait for half

36:08

a year to take the next attempt.

36:08

So there again, was a massive

36:12

delay. At this point, I feel

36:12

where a lot of people give up.

36:19

How do you feel? What's your experience? Right?

36:23

I guess I was lucky.

36:23

With the PSM three, the the mic

36:28

drops, being concise. I had a

36:28

lot of prep with my mentor on

36:32

the path, Shaheen, he's a PST.

36:32

And he said just design mic drop

36:37

answers, right? You can't say

36:37

everything. But if you get your

36:39

boss in an elevator, and they

36:39

asked you a question about the

36:42

daily scrum, what's your one two

36:42

sentence answer for that. And I

36:46

did that for all key concepts

36:46

that I that I could think of for

36:50

Scrum. And so when I was in the

36:50

in the assessment, I almost had

36:54

some leading sentences to

36:54

answer. It's changed a bit now

36:57

because it's much more give

36:57

experiences and tell us how

37:01

you've experienced this in real

37:01

life. Which also is a reason for

37:06

the time box extending BS I was

37:06

lucky to pass it first time 85

37:11

Which wasn't enough. And then

37:11

the second time, I was lucky to

37:14

beat the 90%. But you're right

37:14

it, it can be disheartening.

37:20

Because it's three to four,

37:20

maybe five weeks before you get

37:23

an answer, get your result back,

37:23

because it's graded by a real

37:26

person. And then to see that you

37:26

didn't quite meet the mark. And

37:32

hey, let's not forget, it's

37:32

potentially a $500 investment

37:35

per goes,

37:36

depending on whether

37:36

you took the class or not.

37:39

Because if you took the PSM two,

37:39

you get 40% discount.

37:43

Hmm, absolutely. And

37:43

I think sometimes when people

37:49

see that, that they maybe didn't

37:49

make it, they feel like they

37:52

aren't good enough. And that's

37:52

not true. But I feel almost

37:57

wrong talking about that. That's

37:57

probably something you should

38:00

talk about Sunday, because I

38:00

hope you never thought that you

38:03

weren't good enough.

38:04

Um, I can't really

38:04

remember To be honest, whether I

38:09

ever had that thought in at

38:09

certain points it did, took me a

38:14

little while to re gather my not

38:14

necessarily the drive or the

38:21

motivation to take this mountain

38:21

again. And that both that as

38:26

well as the half your time work

38:26

before it could have another go.

38:32

But with the whole COVID

38:32

situation coming in, it took me

38:35

a while to take that. Even

38:35

though I knew I had the

38:39

knowledge because I in all

38:39

arrogance, when I had the first

38:44

conversation with Daphne, and

38:44

she told me, you need another

38:48

year of experience. The first

38:48

thing that came to my mind was,

38:54

I'll show him I'll take the PSM

38:54

three, and I'll show you that I

38:56

can do this absolute arrogance,

38:56

of course, but I did make the

39:01

85%. So that was cheerful, I

39:01

felt good. This should be good.

39:06

This should be fine. I can do

39:06

this. I could get the 90% I

39:09

think it was 95 of the time.

39:09

They trended down a bit. But the

39:16

level between 85 and 90% is

39:16

actually being good in answering

39:23

questions and being great in

39:23

answering those mic drop kinda

39:26

level of the questions.

39:26

Improving myself to that level

39:32

took me quite a while. And I

39:32

think that's that's the main

39:36

purpose of this entire journey,

39:36

especially with coming through

39:40

that stage of PSM three, as well

39:40

as a peer review is not about

39:43

validating your knowledge. The

39:43

fact that you're taking this,

39:47

especially to peer review,

39:47

you've proven to own that

39:50

knowledge. This is about

39:50

improving your ability to be

39:54

concise, to be crisp to give

39:54

those mic drop answers and then

39:59

to convey that message in a good

39:59

clear way.

40:04

Yeah. And let you

40:04

say when they dropped it from 95

40:08

to 90, they actually made the

40:08

test harder. Which is the reason

40:11

why they dropped the percentage

40:11

a bit. But as Sander says, The

40:16

Yeah, the ability to make things

40:16

more concise. You know if to

40:21

give people an example. And this

40:21

isn't this isn't, you know,

40:24

giving away a question. But

40:24

let's say a topic came up, they

40:26

said, could you explain the

40:26

purpose of the daily scrum? Most

40:30

trainers? Anybody knowledgeable,

40:30

knowledgeable about Scrum could

40:34

probably talk for five minutes

40:34

about that. You don't have that

40:37

time. You know, so I can still

40:37

remember the sentence I had in

40:41

my head, you know, what's the

40:41

theory, the purpose of the daily

40:43

scrum was to it is a daily

40:43

opportunity to inspect and adapt

40:49

the progress made against the

40:49

sprint backlog for the previous

40:53

24 hours to make a plan for the

40:53

next 24 hours, to make it more

40:58

likely that the sprint goal will

40:58

be met. It's about two or three

41:01

bullet points in their max 50

41:01

words. And yeah, could I talk

41:05

about loads of things like

41:05

impediments, the fact that the

41:07

scrum master and the product

41:07

owner only speak if they're,

41:11

they're performing as a

41:11

developer? Yeah, I could have

41:14

that you can't say everything.

41:14

And that was what that was the

41:18

mentality. And the mindset I had

41:18

to put aside, when taking the

41:21

PSM three, you are not being

41:21

asked to tell them everything,

41:25

you

41:25

may have those five

41:25

minutes to give a five minute

41:28

answer dope or five minute

41:28

answer. But you got to keep in

41:31

mind that the other person who's

41:31

reviewing this also is going to

41:34

be reading for five minutes. He

41:34

doesn't want to read for five

41:37

minutes. He wants to have the

41:37

slam dunk immediately. He wants

41:41

to have this answer just in the

41:41

first few lines with maybe a

41:45

little bit of clarification. So

41:45

you, you do have the time on the

41:50

clock, but not in the answer.

41:53

Yep, yeah, three to

41:53

five minutes per question. It

41:55

was for me when it was two hours

41:55

by that time boxes, I guess,

41:59

stretched a little bit. But bear

41:59

in mind, some questions are

42:02

going to be easier than others.

42:02

The phrase that Daphne always

42:05

used is don't talk yourself out

42:05

of a good short answer. Some

42:10

questions I can still remember

42:10

one particular question that's

42:13

etched into my brain took me

42:13

about eight to 10 minutes to

42:16

answer and that's okay. Because

42:16

some questions have multiple sub

42:20

questions. But some of them are

42:20

just super simple. Just move on.

42:24

Exactly. Get it done. And then

42:24

once you've done it, Pay Review.

42:29

And then you're in the community

42:29

Exactly.

42:31

To me, I felt so I

42:31

first started PSM three, my

42:34

chronological order was a bit

42:34

skewed. But I got I went to the

42:39

TT then back in 2019, and then

42:39

went to the to the scrum Dorg

42:44

office in Burlington. This is

42:44

out of everything, what I made

42:49

in my head as being the most

42:49

daunting thing that I would ever

42:53

do when I went there. So I live

42:53

in the Netherlands, I had to fly

42:57

out to different times, I felt I

42:57

had to be on top of my game be

43:02

absolutely focused, I had to do

43:02

everything right. So in the

43:05

first few days, they checked

43:05

into the check whether you're

43:08

able to put yourself in the

43:08

chair of a student and help

43:12

those students learn and engage

43:12

rather than giving them the

43:18

answer and being the teacher.

43:18

The fact that you're there

43:21

already proves that you're you

43:21

probably know more than the

43:25

students in the PSM three PSM

43:25

one class, when it comes to the

43:28

basis of Scrum. They're not

43:28

looking for you to be able to

43:33

answer those kinds of questions,

43:33

or help provide the students

43:37

with the actual answer. It's

43:37

more about helping being able to

43:40

put yourself in the mindset of a

43:40

student followed, as you already

43:45

mentioned, by the date

43:45

specifically where they hone in

43:47

on your teaching skills. I made

43:47

this for some reason. Like if

43:54

I'm not gonna say this fantasy

43:54

realm of this is, this is the

44:00

what is it? Right, I completely

44:00

lost the word, the font of the

44:05

finales of American football.

44:08

I cannot forget what

44:08

do they call it? Touchdown. Oh,

44:11

no,

44:11

I mean in the actual

44:11

finales This is such a you're

44:18

the soup the soup. Yes, thank

44:19

you very much the

44:19

Super Bowl. Right? This felt to

44:22

me like the Super Bowl off the

44:22

entire journey. This is where I

44:26

got a this is where I got to

44:26

perform. Well, I got down from

44:32

that cloud. It wasn't it was a

44:32

lovely experience in my my

44:36

training was Stephanie Okrent.

44:36

Again, fantastic person. I love

44:41

her. But it's not that big of a

44:41

deal as I made it. And that's

44:48

fun to see how it can can skew

44:48

these kinds of things. Well,

44:52

I've never experienced it so I

44:52

don't know anything about there

44:56

was so much good feedback that

44:56

really helped me develop helped

45:00

me grow as a teacher. And that's

45:00

that's the thing with a train

45:03

the trainer for some reason the

45:03

name already says it. It's about

45:07

training you making you better

45:07

not about performing. This is

45:12

really that next step making you

45:12

better and preparing you for the

45:17

peer review as well. How was

45:17

that for you? How was that the

45:20

experience of the drain the drain.

45:24

So I really enjoyed

45:24

it, I'm an over prepare. So I

45:27

they don't share much about

45:27

what's involved in that third

45:31

day. I think that's important.

45:31

And I'm not going to share it

45:33

now. But anybody taking part in

45:33

it can expect to practice their

45:38

teaching and their training

45:38

skills around professional

45:41

Scrum. I don't think that's

45:41

unfair to say. But I was a

45:46

teacher for five years. In a

45:46

secondary school, I was ahead of

45:49

subject I was very used to

45:49

training and using different

45:54

styles to convey. However, even

45:54

I was, you know, we use

45:59

different skills when we're

45:59

training virtually, which I'd

46:01

never had to do. But it was a

46:01

great experience. And I think

46:05

the thing that really came

46:05

across to me, with all the

46:08

stages, as I've said before, I

46:08

didn't go into it feeling like

46:13

it was a pass fail. Or certainly

46:13

didn't leave that way. I might

46:18

have had that mentality going in

46:18

a little bit. But at the end, it

46:21

was about right let's have a

46:21

debrief with in my case, two

46:25

fantastic trainers. Pawel called

46:25

Stuart he though at the time but

46:29

also of course Judo Bosco and

46:29

definitely absolutely legend.

46:33

Yeah, there's

46:33

a good reason to

46:33

trainer in the back in the day.

46:38

Oh, just to. He does

46:38

fantastic. And Pavel likewise.

46:43

And they just sat down and they

46:43

gave feedback and it was never,

46:46

you've passed. Congratulations.

46:46

It was you've you've done enough

46:52

to move forward. You know, we're

46:52

happy in that you've met this,

46:55

this bar that doesn't really

46:55

exist. But you know, you've done

46:58

enough to persuade us that you

46:58

can move forward. And I really

47:03

enjoyed that. I got some great

47:03

feedback that I've certainly

47:05

taken forward. And yeah, it was

47:05

even if you struggle with the

47:11

TGT. It's not a Hey, get out the

47:11

program. It's let's take some of

47:16

the pieces that you were less

47:16

strong up. Let's maybe record

47:18

some videos. Let's do some code

47:18

training. Let's do more. But

47:24

it's never you have failed

47:24

believe. And I think that's

47:27

really important for me taking

47:27

the journey. Because a lot of

47:31

that cognitive load that worry

47:31

was gone.

47:34

I you were by

47:34

yourself in naturally.

47:39

I might what sorry. a worrier.

47:41

Not a warrior, but

47:41

someone who worries Oh, a

47:44

warrior.

47:47

Warrior, I wouldn't

47:47

use that word. I definitely care

47:53

about what people think of me.

47:53

And I definitely always try. Now

47:58

I would, I would stick with my

47:58

I'm an over planner. I plan to

48:01

much. I'm definitely a cynic. In

48:01

that I always think the worst.

48:07

But I also accept that that's a

48:07

reality sometimes. So I'm okay.

48:12

Living in the moment. But if I

48:12

can plan for something, I will

48:16

do

48:18

fairpoint make sense.

48:22

Also, I just don't like the word worry. Probably because it makes me feel like my

48:24

mum

48:29

she must be a lovely

48:29

lady. Yeah,

48:33

I mean, I'll be honest, she's probably not going to listen sander. But you never

48:34

know. I know I it's just yeah, I

48:41

think I think parents as well.

48:41

And I feel that now I've got two

48:43

I know you've got three Hey,

48:43

that's that's complexity at its

48:46

core, right?

48:48

Kids, by the way, now I'm gonna do naturally,

48:50

kids. You do worry

48:50

you you are concerned and you

48:55

think through different

48:55

scenarios. The reason I fight

49:00

against the word worry is

49:00

because I accept the outcome of

49:03

all those is perfectly possible.

49:03

And I'm happy with all of them.

49:07

Obviously, I'd prefer some, but

49:07

I think worrying is feeling like

49:11

you couldn't handle something.

49:11

And I don't feel like that. I

49:14

just got better over time. But

49:14

yeah, that

49:17

will continuously

49:17

evolve. I mean, you get into

49:20

different stages of life, and

49:20

then different stages of your

49:22

PTSD journey. So these things

49:22

continuously evolve. And I think

49:27

that's that's where allowance

49:27

lows, Bonomo was my, my coach

49:31

throughout those years, where

49:31

bar and belly over him told me

49:35

back in the day, like this is

49:35

something that you can ask for,

49:37

it's not actively being

49:37

promoted, but you can ask for a

49:40

coach when it comes to the PhD

49:40

journey. So Lauren's already

49:43

generously prepared me saying,

49:43

hey, 95% and this is not to put

49:48

you down but the 95% fails in

49:48

the first attempt during the

49:51

peer review. Alright, and that's

49:51

how I went into the peer review.

49:55

This is I'm not going to pass.

49:55

This is going to be for me an

49:58

opportunity to inspect and adapt

49:58

delay there and working, and

50:02

just improve. And they'll see

50:02

you again on the next attempt.

50:04

And if I don't make that, I

50:04

mean, I did five exams in PSM

50:09

three, I can take a couple of

50:09

the peer reviews as well. And

50:12

the peer reviews are, are more

50:12

enjoyable because you're not

50:15

It's not a race against the

50:15

clock is just having a nice

50:19

discussion with beers and

50:19

talking to them. And there's,

50:23

there's so different and so much

50:23

more of a nice experience rather

50:27

than the PSM three to me. How do

50:27

you feel about your PC? It's

50:33

definitely it's definitely, I think it was, it's definitely rigorous. I don't

50:35

want that to anyone listening to

50:38

think that it's easy. It's not

50:38

easy, it is tough. And it's

50:41

intentionally tough. I think

50:41

it's important that it's tough.

50:44

Because if you if you're paying

50:44

1000 pounds $1,200 for a

50:50

professional scrum class, you want to know that the person who's training you knows their

50:52

stuff, and it's been vetted and

50:54

checked. Out? Hey, man, I got

50:54

some questions that are due, you

50:59

know, what you just think? Where

50:59

did those questions from? And

51:04

but actually, sometimes you can

51:04

say, I don't know. But it's the

51:09

way you handle it. They're

51:09

trying to prepare you as a

51:11

trainer. Sometimes you said, You

51:11

know what? That's a really great

51:13

question. But it's not a

51:13

question that we answer, or is

51:17

probably relevant to the other

51:17

six people in the class, maybe

51:19

we take you to a coffee break.

51:20

And that's the thing, they don't expect you to know everything and all. It's

51:22

okay to say, I don't know. What

51:29

do you think? And then to make

51:29

absolutely give me a bit of more

51:33

of an organic conversation

51:33

rather than? And that's what a

51:37

lot of people do try to fit in

51:37

an answer. With that sub

51:42

optimal. Let's put it like that

51:42

at best. Well, you know, I don't

51:46

know. And if you know that, if

51:46

you're you're aware that you

51:49

don't know, just say I don't know.

51:52

Yes, it's better

51:52

than making it up and getting it

51:54

wrong. Exactly.

51:56

Because people will

51:56

poke through that we will have a

51:58

knack for for knowing when

51:58

you're lying. Because that's

52:01

basically what it is. Right?

52:01

You're lying that you know,

52:04

because you don't be honest. Oh,

52:04

yes. Be transparent. So I don't

52:08

know.

52:10

Yeah. The bullshit

52:10

sniffers as I call them. And

52:13

they there will be those people

52:13

and that's okay. Right? They

52:16

will they also sometimes some

52:16

some trip. Students, they want

52:20

to challenge you. And that is

52:20

their right? They've paid to

52:23

attend a class, if they want to

52:23

ask a tough question. They can

52:25

ask a tough question. They will.

52:25

And they will. And that's okay.

52:30

We are there. We're not going to

52:30

pretend we know everything. But

52:32

we will certainly give it a go

52:32

and try to give you the value

52:35

that you want from

52:36

What's the toughest

52:36

question that anyone has ever

52:38

asked you, during QA know

52:38

exactly this question. You know,

52:42

there are always those questions

52:42

that will stick to you forever.

52:46

Yeah, I will tell

52:46

you, but you do not make the

52:49

answer. And the question was,

52:49

how can the definition of Done?

52:55

Or how can a strong definition

52:55

of Done help you to produce more

52:58

increments per sprint? was a

52:58

good one? It's a great question.

53:06

And I took you know, take it on

53:06

the chin have a go at it. But

53:11

it's just one of those questions

53:11

where sometimes there isn't a

53:13

right answer.

53:14

I'm curious for

53:14

anyone who's listening in the US

53:17

who's deep into this podcast

53:17

still listening? Because we're

53:21

almost an hour in. And kudos to

53:21

you for for bearing with us. I'm

53:26

curious about your your

53:26

perspective as well. If you hear

53:28

this question, Ryan, just that

53:28

just told. Let us know your

53:32

thoughts.

53:36

Please let me know and I will use it for my next professional scrum trainer,

53:38

instruct training class.

53:43

And then you're in then you're in the community, you'll be added into Slack,

53:45

you'll be into the DPC slack

53:49

that you're going to be handled

53:49

with, with a ton of emails where

53:53

you can find information where

53:53

you can find the curriculum,

53:56

you'll be displayed on LinkedIn

53:56

as well and Twitter and those

54:00

kinds of social media. And

54:00

you'll get a I didn't know I was

54:05

with you, Ryan, but you'll get a

54:05

ton of requests and connection

54:09

requests from other people. And

54:09

then you're there. Then you made

54:13

it, you're sad to cut,

54:16

be pay your fee. You

54:16

then licensed the train the

54:20

class that you came through on

54:20

CpSm. But then once you're in

54:23

the community, you are pending

54:23

other requirements able to apply

54:26

to teach other classes. Then

54:26

you've got two types of classes.

54:29

You've got public ones that you

54:29

will see online on scrum Doc's

54:32

website, and you also have

54:32

private one. So professional

54:35

scrum trainers do not work for

54:35

scrum.org is important to put

54:38

that across we We are licensed

54:38

to train the classes we pay a

54:42

license fee to do so. But for

54:42

example, the majority of the

54:46

classes I train are private

54:46

where an organization would come

54:49

to me and say I've got 10 people

54:49

that's never advertised we don't

54:52

take people from from general

54:52

public. And yeah, that's that's

54:56

sometimes you'll see a lot of

54:56

trainers maybe on scrum.org If

54:58

you filter for someone and it

54:58

says they don't have any

55:01

classes. How can that be? Well,

55:01

a some of them are full time

55:04

consultants and don't have the

55:04

time or be they just do a lot of

55:06

their work privately. So drop

55:06

them a message if you want to

55:09

join or create one. And I'm sure

55:09

they'll get to

55:12

exactly. And there's

55:12

good to know thank you reference

55:14

it, you just quickly went

55:14

through it earlier. But going to

55:20

a face to face Trainer meeting

55:20

every year, once a year is a

55:24

requirement. Luckily, there are

55:24

virtual as well. So I ended up

55:28

whether there was the case

55:28

before COVID as well, but

55:30

they're now virtual as well.

55:30

Personally, I'm going to be

55:33

attending them one in Burlington

55:33

again in September. They're all

55:36

throughout throughout the world

55:36

to scrum The Lord does try to

55:39

accommodate for your location so

55:39

that you don't have to travel

55:42

the world specifically. You

55:42

mentioned there's one and that

55:46

there is usually an

55:46

expectation to travel. Yeah. You

55:50

mentioned there's this but we

55:50

had an Iceland this year.

55:53

Yeah, I just think

55:53

it's brilliant. Yeah. And

55:57

there's one like you mentioned

55:57

in Amsterdam, and the, the end

56:00

of the month of the end of in

56:00

two weeks from now from this and

56:04

the time of this recording,

56:04

which I couldn't attend because

56:08

it was already signed,

56:08

completely. I was full, and it

56:11

doesn't meet my client's agenda

56:11

as well. So I have the luck to

56:15

travel to the US again, which

56:15

I'm really looking forward to

56:18

especially because it has been a

56:18

couple of years that we have

56:20

been able to travel to the US,

56:20

thanks to the whole COVID

56:24

situation. So thank you face to

56:24

face.

56:29

Absolutely. Well, I

56:29

will, I will quite happily buy

56:31

you a beer. If you pick me up

56:31

from the airport. Like you said,

56:35

depending on the

56:35

time that you were going to pick

56:38

you up in the middle of the night.

56:40

Oh no, man, it's all good. It's all good. I'll buy you a beer either way.

56:43

Sounds good. Scrum,

56:43

the dog is always actively

56:48

looking for more drainers and

56:48

looking for more diversity and

56:51

more female trainers at this

56:51

point. And for that we're gonna

56:54

have Leslie Morse talking us

56:54

through and telling us more

56:57

about that. But before we do

56:57

that, Ryan, if there's any,

57:01

anything that you would like to

57:01

advise to people who are about

57:03

to start to journey or willing

57:03

to start the journey, pondering,

57:07

what would it be?

57:09

Talk to someone

57:09

who's done it. Connect with

57:14

someone create community, just

57:14

go for a virtual coffee or a

57:17

physical coffee. Depending on

57:17

where you're located. To get an

57:21

honest opinion of it. Don't let

57:21

the worries don't let it seem an

57:25

insurmountable mountain. You

57:25

know, because it's not. It is a

57:30

journey for a very good reason.

57:30

And just enjoy it.

57:34

And I'm active prove

57:34

that could take a while to to

57:37

conquer this mountain, but it

57:37

definitely can be done. Speaking

57:41

of no are familiar PSTN people

57:41

already done it? You're you're

57:47

one of those PCs? I'm one where

57:47

can people find you?

57:52

So you can find me

57:52

on LinkedIn, you can find me via

57:55

the organization I work for up

57:55

to then so up to learn dot code

57:58

at UK. I also have a link tree,

57:58

Twitter, Instagram, you name it.

58:07

I do try. The only thing I don't

58:07

do is tick tock because I'm not

58:10

I feel like I'm not young

58:10

enough. But hey, maybe maybe

58:14

maybe in future, but I'm more

58:14

than happy to chat to people if

58:18

you want. If you have training

58:18

requirements you want to know

58:20

about second class. Just reach

58:20

out and we'll we'll just arrange

58:23

a zero obligation chat just

58:23

friend different. Awesome.

58:28

Right. And thank you very much for being here and looking forward to the year and

58:29

always love our discussions.

58:32

Thank you, man.

58:33

You're welcome. Have a nice evening center.

58:36

And that's it for

58:36

this week's episode of the

58:39

mastering agility podcast. I

58:39

hope you learn how our journeys

58:43

were how this could be

58:43

applicable to you and what it

58:46

takes to become a professional

58:46

scrum trainer and join the

58:49

awesome community of Scrum.

58:49

Nador strainers. Again, I still

58:53

really like it still enjoy it. I

58:53

really enjoy providing these

58:57

courses so I'm hoping to have

58:57

you in the future classes. Well,

59:00

speaking of which, I'm teaching

59:00

classes both in Europe as well

59:04

as in the US are developing

59:04

especially to George area. So if

59:09

you want to know know more about

59:09

that and where you can join my

59:11

classes. Feel free to hit me up

59:11

on either LinkedIn. The website

59:15

is from the dork, email,

59:15

WhatsApp you name and join the

59:18

discord community. You can ask

59:18

me anything. Hope to see you

59:24

guys there.