0:02

This is Masters in Business with

0:04

Barry Ridholtz on Boomberg Radio.

0:07

This week on the podcast, I have a special

0:09

guest. Her name is Kara Swisher.

0:12

And if you are remotely interested

0:15

in anything related to technology,

0:18

media, venture capital, CEO's

0:22

privacy, the

0:24

weaponization of social media,

0:27

and just about anything else you

0:29

might have seen about technology,

0:32

well then you're in for quite the

0:34

treat. We went for about eight hours.

0:36

We took time out for sleeping

0:38

and meals and basically

0:40

covered everything, uh

0:42

from the rise of technology,

0:45

how people completely did not see

0:47

this coming, what technology

0:50

is going to do to us in the future, and who the

0:52

hell is this Scott Galloway guy anyway,

0:55

So I could tell you all

0:57

about it, but rather than do that, I'm

0:59

just gonna shut up and say my conversation

1:02

with Kara Swisher. This

1:06

is Master's in Business with Barry

1:08

Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. I'm

1:10

Barry Ridholts. You're listening to Masters

1:13

in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My

1:15

extra special guests this week is Kara

1:18

Swisher. She is the co

1:20

founder of Recode, sold recently

1:23

to Vox. Before that, she was

1:25

the longstanding technology

1:27

journalist along with Walt Mossburg over

1:29

at the Wall Street Journal. She is the author

1:32

of a number of books, including

1:34

How Steve Case Beat Bill Gates

1:37

and its sequel, There Must Be a Pony

1:39

in Here Somewhere. She won the Gerald

1:41

Loebe Award for Excellence in

1:44

Business Journalism and is the

1:46

co host of one of my favorite podcasts,

1:49

Pivot with Scott Galloway. Kara

1:51

Swisher. Welcome to Bloomberg. I'm

1:53

very impressive with myself. Well,

1:56

you have a nice list of accomplishments.

1:59

I was discussed saying your work

2:01

with somebody and they said, she's

2:03

really a journalist, right, And I'm like, well,

2:05

she's also an entrepreneur. She's

2:07

been very forward in terms of the

2:10

conference business, in terms of um,

2:12

the media business, which she turned into a platform.

2:15

I don't know if it was ever publicly released.

2:18

Um what Recode was sold? Was that always

2:21

private? Yeah? It was. It was a start

2:23

up. Yeah, we sold ABO four or five years

2:25

ago. It was we had been funded

2:28

by NBC and Terry Samuel, who's

2:31

taken ill now but he uh.

2:34

We we got twelve million dollars from

2:36

them, and at the time that was a lot, but

2:38

pretty soon it was it wasn't a lot. A

2:40

lot of content companies. It was sort of this big boom

2:42

in investing in content, and many of

2:45

my competitors got four or five times

2:47

what I got six months later as a VC

2:49

investment. Yeah, we didn't have a VC. It was NBC

2:51

and Terry he's a media investor, you know.

2:54

And so I looked around. I said this, I

2:56

can't compete with this much money. It's

2:58

it's a bubble. And so I sold Box.

3:00

I looked, I talked to a number of companies. I sold

3:02

really quickly after founding Well.

3:06

No, I was at All Things D for a

3:08

dozen or more years, which was within the Wall Street

3:10

Journal. UM, and I was at the in the

3:12

journal for about a dozen more than a dozen years, and

3:15

but we had a skunk works inside the journal, so

3:18

it was owned by the journal, but we ran it without

3:20

their input. Really yeah,

3:22

it was great, yeah, and they

3:25

were good and bad in different ways, but um

3:27

and then we left because we had some problems

3:30

with them, and then had it funded

3:32

and we were going to do it independently, but then I

3:34

was like, no way, this is gonna things. You

3:37

have to be really dynamic when you're an entrepreneur and

3:39

realize, you know, if someone if your

3:41

competitors all have three times the amount

3:43

of funding. You do. You have a problem. You can't

3:45

be that good. And so especially

3:47

in content because it's about hiring talent. And

3:49

so we sold really quickly

3:52

within a year to Vox Media. Like yeah,

3:56

I was like, you know, I'm I'm really good that way.

3:58

I know when to move. So that wasn't

4:00

hundreds of millions of dollars

4:02

that It wasn't okay,

4:05

and I just no,

4:07

I haven't I'm not going to hear but I'm

4:10

not going to going to it. But it's not. It doesn't worth anything. I own

4:12

the stock and Box Media whatever Box Media cells.

4:14

So it was so I won't harangue you about

4:17

this, but was I'm assuming this was an all stock

4:19

trans Yes, it was. We decided that O. Yeah, we

4:21

could have gotten cash, but we I felt like why not,

4:23

Like if I'm an entrepreneur, I should own the shop.

4:25

And I so, I mean, I have quite a

4:27

bit of stock in Box Media. We'll see what happens. I

4:29

mean obviously now content, uh,

4:31

content is now the blooms off the rose there and

4:34

you know Box is quite healthy. But you know the others

4:37

bezz feed and and Mike of course closed,

4:39

some of these others closed and so

4:41

and all of media is under stress and

4:44

so, you know, especially we're going to a recession and stuff.

4:46

So it's just whatever the stocks worth. We'll

4:48

see, we'll see how it goes. Quite interesting. But

4:50

I'm very well paid, Barry, don't worry about it. I

4:53

do, okay, you do, okay. So let's

4:55

talk a little bit about the early parts of your

4:57

career you come out of. Now, I know you have a

4:59

mastress from Colombia. Was that the journalism

5:01

school or journalism school? Yeah? I went to Georgetown

5:03

School Foreign Service, which was in

5:06

Washington, d C. It was actually my backup

5:08

school. Now it's a very top ranking school. But at

5:10

the time, and can I tell you you

5:12

and I are not all that far apart in age

5:15

the people who came

5:17

into because of the demographics

5:19

into college forty

5:22

years ago, we're dealing with um

5:25

relatively easy admissions. And then the boom followed.

5:28

It was the echo boom made it much more

5:30

challenging to get in. I didn't get in. Everybody didn't get at Stanford.

5:32

I wanted to go to Stanford, but my brother went to Stanford.

5:35

UM. But I I got into Georgetown,

5:37

and it was in the school FORIGN service, and I wanted to be I've

5:39

said this many times, a spy. I wanted to work for the CIA,

5:41

and I want to do analysis, very similar what

5:43

I do now, reporting an analysis, just with no

5:45

one shooting it. Yes, exactly, Well, you never know,

5:48

um and so and I it was very interested in

5:50

the military too, in military intelligence. And

5:52

I was gay at the time. That was impossible

5:55

you could get into the military. You couldn't you had.

5:57

It was don't ask, don't tell. Under the Clinton

5:59

ministry and so I always tell.

6:01

So it was really hard to do that. Um

6:04

and then in the CIA, you haven't asked, ridiculous

6:07

tell. It's such a insane thing.

6:09

Can I tell you? It's so shocking.

6:12

What right, It's so shocking to look

6:14

back just twenty years and

6:16

say, what the hell are we thinking? Don't

6:18

ask? What are we still thinking? There's all these attacks on transgender

6:21

people. Now, well we you know, we're in an alternative

6:23

timeline. Now I'll discuss that later. We're

6:26

not you think, so this is just what America

6:28

is like. I'm sorry, you know, put a mirror

6:30

to our faces. There's a great there's

6:32

a great series going on. It's

6:34

the six nine series in the New

6:36

York Times, and it's

6:38

that. Let me just say, this is

6:40

what we are, and if you it's part of us, it's

6:42

not every part of us, but it's not this dream

6:44

of being this incredibly meritocurtency

6:47

with everybody getting a chance. It's just not. So.

6:50

So let me fast forward to a question

6:52

I'm gonna was planning on asking you later. How

6:54

much of this that we're discussing

6:57

here is a function that forty

7:00

years ago, if you were a crazy

7:03

um nazi, racist,

7:05

homophobe, whatever it was, you

7:07

would be the guy mumbling to yourself outside

7:09

the library, but you

7:11

didn't have the ability to coordinate nationally

7:14

well that there were tons

7:16

of them and people. The things people said to me thirty

7:18

years ago about being gay was just astonishing.

7:20

Like today would not be allowed

7:23

obviously, or in some places it would, but it was.

7:25

The change has been so drastic around gay people. But at

7:28

the time, I couldn't be what I wanted. I wanted to

7:30

be in the military, my dad was in the military, and

7:32

I just couldn't. There was, you know, I really wanted

7:34

to be like compared like you know, people always surprised

7:36

I'm like, I'm really quite. I really think the

7:38

military can be great in a lot of ways,

7:40

has a lot of problems like anything else. Um,

7:43

but you know, yeah that Scott was talking

7:45

about that the other day, and before the sort

7:47

of the ability to unify and

7:50

have have places to meet for people

7:52

who have issues racists like white supremacists,

7:55

the Internet has helped them drastically. And I

7:57

talked about that in my first book in ninety seven. This

7:59

was a place where you can either gather for

8:01

good like quilters

8:03

or people parents and

8:06

you know, people who want to know, well, these communities

8:08

about different. What happened is all these people

8:10

were and wherever Idaho, wherever, they're

8:13

everywhere, they just were wolves.

8:15

Yeah, and so now they can find places to gather. It's

8:17

it's they create these gathering places

8:20

which and with a lot of tools from video

8:22

too, and so it's a really great place to radicalize

8:24

people. You know, that's the problem with the Internet. This

8:26

tool it can be you know, it's like a knife. It

8:28

can be used in a lot of different ways, and so

8:31

in a lot of ways it's used to kill people. So

8:33

I've watched your thought evolve

8:36

on whether or not this is in

8:38

response to most recently to eight chan and

8:40

read it basically saying we should

8:42

not be a gathering place for white supremacists

8:44

and others who are plotting to kill people.

8:48

You've kind of moved a little bit about

8:50

whether companies like

8:52

registrars domain registrars or or

8:55

I'm moved. I think they should take them off. I don't.

8:57

I've never that's not an evolution. No, No,

8:59

I'm actually were more of a First Amenda

9:03

you misreading it because I think I find

9:05

the intellectual capacity of most people

9:07

still on Valley to be light, you know, in terms

9:10

of ethics, in terms of historical

9:12

knowledge and everything, and so they have this I

9:14

call it libertarian light. You

9:16

know, they're like, I'm a libertarian, I'm a first man. I'm like, explain

9:19

it for me, and you know, I have studied this so I

9:21

know what it is. And they're like, anybody can

9:23

say anything. I'm like, no, that's not what the First Amendment says. It

9:25

says Congress shall make no law. Just Congress,

9:27

not Twitter, not Facebook. Not like they're

9:29

just so like there's many people and they're highly

9:32

educated in certain ways, but in general, it's

9:35

libertarian light. You know what I mean, people should

9:37

do what they want. That's like, that's what a twelve three

9:40

year old says. I can do what I want, but you can't.

9:42

And so I think legitimate companies

9:45

like Facebook, like Twitter, like Google

9:48

have responsibility. And I've always thought companies,

9:50

whether they're chemical companies or Wall Street companies

9:53

or Bloomberg or any or Vox, we have a

9:55

responsibility to society. You know, legitimate

9:58

companies the others can create these

10:00

things. But it doesn't mean that this

10:02

this this idea that you collect all

10:04

the money and have none of the responsibilities,

10:06

okay, because it's not okay. Now they can do

10:08

it, but I can say this is not okay, quite

10:11

quite interesting. You know, you can decide who you would do business

10:13

with. I don't like, you know, I like

10:15

you can decide who you do business with. And you

10:18

know, cloud Flare is the company that I wrote

10:20

about recently in the New York Times. I read a

10:22

column their weekly. Um, you know,

10:24

they this guy who I've interviewed

10:26

several times, Matthew Prince. Um,

10:29

you know, he he's been sort of he's

10:32

changed my I've suddenly realized

10:34

this is terrible, and I'm like, welcome to the

10:36

world. Like, have you not been paying attention

10:38

and they cut off a jan um.

10:41

But you know, people can make their

10:43

decisions. They just have to live with their decisions.

10:45

If you want to facilitate white supremacy,

10:48

own it, like own what you're doing,

10:50

and that's what they'd like to do. They'd like to do it. And

10:52

then say, why are you criticizing me? So

10:55

they you know, expressing my first memory.

10:59

I love the fact that the Internet identifies

11:02

all these people who are participating in these

11:05

white supremacy marches

11:07

and basically calls out their bosses and

11:10

gets them fired. Yeah, you want to march

11:12

here, go ahead, just don't expect to serve star.

11:14

It's just people. People can do whatever

11:16

they want. It's just you know, the whole controversy

11:19

on Alex Jones for example. You know, this vile,

11:21

vile human being, just on every

11:24

measure, he's a vile person. He

11:26

can have a website anywhere on the Internet. No one's

11:28

stopping him. People who make

11:31

these tools can either decide to kick him off or not. That's

11:33

that's the deal, right. So and

11:35

their commercial businesses and if I people choose

11:38

not to do business with them, they're

11:40

not nothing wrong with companies like that.

11:42

Advertisers pointing out to advertisers pointing

11:45

out to whatever, it's not it's the way, you know,

11:47

boycotts have gone on for century. It's not. This

11:49

is not a new thing kind of thing. And I think it's

11:51

just becomes so um amplified

11:53

and weaponized in this time because it's so viral,

11:56

it's so so the news we get is so twitchy

11:58

and so quick that people get and

12:00

and the emotions get so easily in

12:03

a rage that people think it's different.

12:05

Um. But what's interesting is that they

12:08

um, you know, they they have

12:10

their spaces. When when I was when the Alex Jones

12:12

things was happening, I was talking to all the major

12:14

platforms and they're like, well,

12:16

everybody has a right, you know, to have a place. I'm

12:19

like, but you're going to kick him off just so you know,

12:21

because he's broken your rules. Like they made

12:23

rules. What's the point of your stupid rules if

12:25

you're not going to enforce them? Well,

12:27

you know it's complicated. I'm like, no, you made rules, he broke

12:29

on. Why isn't he off? Like you

12:31

know, and they had all these weird rules, and it's like, if you're gonna

12:33

make rules, keep to them. You have a

12:36

responsibility to the society at large,

12:38

and you know, in things that are pretty much

12:40

you know, there's all kinds of edge cases, there's all

12:43

kinds of like whatever they

12:46

can be, but there's lots of places where people to go.

12:49

You know, for example, like with with Twitter, there

12:51

they've it's been so haphazard

12:53

with them that you know that we've kicked off Melo

12:57

whatever, you know, we kick him off,

12:59

but not the sky. But we kicked this person,

13:02

but not that guy. It's like, it just doesn't make any

13:04

sense to people. And I think if everyone understood the rules

13:06

and then when you break them, that's that what

13:10

they've managed to do is make people think these

13:12

things are public squares when they're private squares

13:15

and they own everything and they

13:17

get paid for everything, and they don't have any

13:19

responsibility for monitoring them. So

13:21

they've made these very filthy

13:23

public private squares and

13:26

it's the only place to gather. And then they say, we don't

13:28

have any responsibility for cleaning. I just happened

13:31

this morning to be scanning Twitter

13:33

and I saw sleeping giants. Oh him, Yeah,

13:35

he's great, right, just mentioned that last

13:37

night on Tucker Calson show, Dell

13:40

was advertising, and you

13:43

know, you think that a big broad

13:45

name like that would be a little savvy er. Oh

13:48

you know what, they wait until the things

13:50

blow over and then they go back that. You know, they just want

13:52

to sell. But but here's the thing

13:55

you're gonna get cold out for that. That's right, that's

13:57

right, this is the world. Guess what. And that's you know that

13:59

happened before. Remember Anita Brian the

14:01

orange juice thing with gay That's right, everyone

14:03

was dumping orange juice? Was that unfair to Anita

14:05

Brian? It doesn't matter she had

14:07

her opinion. This is what it costs to have her

14:09

opinion. And I think, um,

14:12

you know, every everything costs, and people don't

14:14

realize that like they We live in a world

14:16

where everyone's I can say whatever I want, like

14:18

you certainly can, but it certainly costs the same with me,

14:21

same with everybody else. Be an adult about

14:23

it. What you're doing. Let's talk a little

14:25

bit about what you're doing, um

14:27

with your career now and how you began.

14:30

What was it like in the early nineties

14:33

covering technology. I don't think people there's

14:36

nobody covering that writes it

14:38

was me and some other guy. I don't think people

14:40

really understood how important technology

14:43

was going to be to society,

14:45

the economy. Everything it had been covered, you know,

14:47

chips and Microsoft essentially

14:49

in software, chips and software. We'd been either

14:51

covered as a as a as a as a product

14:54

issue like we made Windows ten. Here's

14:56

the news story, which is not a news story when they at least

14:58

something, but it used to be UM and

15:00

so you know when the hoop

15:02

la on that was insane. I was at that event,

15:05

UM, So you know, I think what was interesting.

15:07

What I thought about it is this was an entirely new

15:09

industry being created, the Internet industry,

15:12

and you had to treat it like the beginnings

15:14

of electricity or the beginning of TV or

15:16

the beginning of radio. And so that's how

15:18

I looked at it. And so one of the things I told

15:21

when I first started covering at the Washing Post and then later

15:23

at the Wall Street Journal, what I told Manners is I'm not going

15:25

to tell you how the watchworking. I'll tell you what

15:27

time it is, and that's what the most important story,

15:30

like who are these people? And I spent a lot

15:32

of time understanding the culture

15:34

that was growing because it was all new. Like the I

15:36

was there, I wrote one of the first stories when the Internet was

15:38

commercialized. When I was at the Washington Post. I think, I

15:40

mean, nobody was paying attention to, you

15:42

know, what al Gore was doing.

15:45

Yes, I was covering it then, and so I

15:47

really there was a moment where I

15:49

was like, this is going to be the

15:51

most important change in media

15:54

and communications in

15:56

history, like so far, and there's been a lot. I

15:59

thought, catch on, Yeah I did. I kept saying, you know,

16:02

two things I spent a lot of time doing is talking about

16:05

um. I told I tell a story that absolutely

16:07

was a moment where I downloaded

16:10

a Calvin and Hobbs book onto a server and

16:13

I messed up the server. It was so big, you know,

16:15

and the pictures and the person who was running

16:18

the technology was like what did you do? And I'm like, I downloaded

16:20

a book, I put it in Like what you

16:22

that? And then like he's like so what, I'm like, so

16:24

what don't you get at you idiot? Like you know,

16:27

this is gonna everything is going to be digitized. And

16:29

I kept saying everything is going to be digitized everything,

16:31

And I say this over and over again. Everything that can be digitized

16:33

will be digitized. Jobs, everything, It eats

16:36

everything, not just Mark andres and software

16:38

is eating the world. Digital is eating the world.

16:40

You know, you sound a

16:42

bit like Andresen who describes

16:45

software software, but he describes

16:48

entrepreneurs that he knows

16:50

he's onto something when they're trying to explain

16:52

their business to a VC

16:55

and they get frustrated and angry, like, how do you

16:57

not see this? It's so obvious? You basically

16:59

just said, well it was, and it was. I would run

17:01

around saying this and everyone's like, what are you talking about. I'm

17:03

like, there's not gonna be newspapers. There's not gonna be like I

17:06

would do that like the newspaper people. And

17:08

then the second part was mobile. And when I got

17:10

to the journal, I would just wrote a columnist the

17:12

other day and the Times about no one's going to own

17:14

a car, which caused quite a lot

17:16

of consternation

17:18

because like people in the Midwestern or with pickup truck

17:21

struck, I want my pickup trup. I said, have your pickup truck.

17:23

But it's gonna be like only like

17:25

you don't understand, like even you will not have a

17:27

car like cities, absolutely not you.

17:30

Very soon after it'll be all automated and everything

17:32

else or they'll be floating or whatever and so

17:35

um. So I wrote a piece when I write when I

17:37

got to the journal in called

17:40

cutting the Cord. Yeah,

17:42

and I had a picture of me with chords and I had a big

17:44

you know places, and

17:47

I said, you will not have a landline phone.

17:49

You will carry around this device. It will get smaller.

17:51

And because they were big at the time, you know you

17:54

small and tomorrow there will be your entire computer. It

17:56

will be on the go, be mobile. You will

17:58

this will be the center of your news. And it was when

18:00

I go back and read it, I'm like, wow, that was pretty smart.

18:03

Good um. But I kept

18:05

insisting it and it made so much sense,

18:07

like it obviously like when I think about cars,

18:09

or when I think about certain jobs being

18:11

eliminated. Like I was trying to alert the other and

18:14

I'm like, your job is going to go like it's so patterned

18:16

match. AI will take over everything you do except

18:18

for the creativity part. No, it's

18:20

you know, I think I said, everything you do is digitized,

18:23

anything that's by road, anything that's mechanical, not

18:25

just mechanical, it is so much more that

18:27

really you could apply AI principles

18:30

to a robotic, any of the coming things, robotics,

18:32

automation, uh, self driving,

18:35

um AI. It's

18:37

just anything that can apply to it does. So I think

18:39

about though, what can change, what's not going

18:41

to be here? Whenever I get pushed back

18:44

when we discuss future technology,

18:46

my favorite question to ask people is, well,

18:48

do you think people will still be driving their own

18:50

cars in a hundred years? No, of course

18:52

not. Okay, so next year, yeah

18:54

I'll still be. So really, the debate is weird.

18:57

When does that transition take place? And

18:59

people can picture, but

19:01

they can picture twelve years from now.

19:03

That's too difficult. Yeah, it's taking place. It's place,

19:06

and you know, it's the business model to

19:08

the business model of not owning a car and just

19:10

using Uber or some other source. Have

19:12

something come by. That's hard for a lot of people

19:15

to conceptualize, even though it appears

19:17

they're already doing it. It's they've already

19:19

started to do. People do things without realizing. There's

19:21

an I forget, which I think it's I can't

19:23

remember the poet Past are made

19:26

by walking. That's what's happening

19:28

here. Past made by walking, and so I just

19:30

like I'm going to write a recap of what's happened since

19:33

I got rid of I saw in my car and I have no

19:35

vehicle, Like I have no vehicle, and the other like

19:37

I called someone, I'm like, oh, we have to go get this. I'm like, oh, I don't

19:39

have a car. How am I going to do that? Like, you know, it doesn't

19:41

mean you're not going to drive a car, it doesn't mean you're not going

19:43

to rent a car. I've just rented a car up

19:46

and I'm going to try to put put it in terms

19:48

of money, what I what I spent for

19:50

that, what I used to buy a car with. And

19:52

when I called the insurance company,

19:55

I've had a car, you know, an insurance policy

19:57

for years forever. And

20:00

uh, they're like, what's the car you're

20:02

replacing with? I go, no car, and they're like what I

20:04

said, I never am going to own a car. And it was the most fascinating

20:06

discussion. I said, you better watch out for your business because

20:08

I'm not going to insurance. But then I sat down

20:10

to breakfast with someone who's a lawyer and said, you

20:12

know, when you get on a scooter, if you don't have car insurance,

20:15

who covers if you hit someone when

20:17

you're on a scooter like tho. I was like, oh my god, I

20:19

do need interest, so you need insurance

20:21

something different? Well, but it gets taken away

20:23

when you don't have a car. It was fascinating and I'm like, oh

20:25

my god, a whole new business. Like but

20:27

I was thinking, all car insurance will go away. What will

20:29

happen to those people? But then there's the only business of people

20:31

who are on the move. You have to be covered

20:34

anyway. It was just interesting. Your amex probably

20:36

covers you if you rent it, rent the scooter,

20:38

don't know, but it's like, that's the whole thing. But

20:40

there's whole new businesses to be creative that. Immediately

20:43

I was like, wow, I wouldn't it be interesting to go into the insurance

20:45

business without only a car, but having a mobile

20:47

insurance, a moving insurance, like

20:49

you physically moving through the world. However

20:51

you decide to do it. If you get into a vertical lift

20:54

and takeoff vehicles, you know there's

20:56

are great, They're going to be cool. I was mentioning, I've

20:58

been waiting for them for fIF They're coming.

21:00

They'll be in San Francisco first, so you come and ride

21:02

them and there are I've been tracking that

21:05

There are a number of companies that are relatively close,

21:07

including one that's an old battery

21:09

electric version. Um,

21:12

I'm going to stick with it. But we're still

21:14

I'm waiting for my blade runner vehicle

21:17

where the projection of the highway

21:19

is just a three three dimensional hologram

21:22

that you fly through. But hey, that

21:24

was supposed to be. Here are

21:28

Hollywood people telling you, all right, so when are

21:30

we going to have When are we gonna have personalized

21:34

VTOL cars and taxis? You will

21:36

be dead, Berry, you will never experience. They may try

21:38

one, but you're not going to be So we're

21:41

see. I agree with you. I think it's less than

21:43

a hundred years but more than a decade.

21:47

And I think it will be a slow transition because people very

21:49

local, lester. They'll be

21:51

human, that's right, that's another thing life extension.

21:53

But there'll be human

21:55

and cars at the same time. Just like here in New York.

21:57

You know, there used to be the elevated the

22:01

trains, and when they first started,

22:03

a lot of people got run over by them when they were down

22:05

on the ground before they elevated where the high line

22:07

was. That's why they built the high line because all these people

22:09

are getting killed because they were like, what's this. We

22:12

have horses, and so horses would bang into

22:14

these electric vehicles all the

22:16

time, and then there weren't horses,

22:19

and so that's what you know. There will be human drivers,

22:22

but then there won't be like that's

22:24

what's going out. And so I think that's what you have to

22:26

think about, is this transition period when

22:28

and it doesn't mean people won't drive in certain places

22:30

or it's not, it'll just be different.

22:32

It'll be just a different experience. So you go

22:34

from the Washington Post to the Wall Street Journal, is

22:37

that Mossberg got

22:39

me there? My my most important mentor so

22:41

now he was covering technology. He was the

22:44

guy het a technology column,

22:46

uh that he wrote for

22:48

many years. He started it um.

22:50

His first line of his first one was called personal

22:52

Technology in the Wall Street Journal. And as

22:55

he had covered the Defense Department, he had to the State

22:57

Department. He was, you know, Washington reporter and

22:59

he just was st geeky. And the

23:01

first line of his column, which I think was still relevant

23:03

today, was technology is too hard to use

23:05

and it's not your fault, which I loved,

23:07

which is like so smart because they were sort of

23:10

testing you, you know, with the products

23:13

that again. But okay,

23:15

um, so he started that,

23:18

and so he was there and I interviewed him for my book

23:20

on I well, because he was the only person I

23:22

perceived that understood the change. Like

23:24

everybody else was like, Oh, it's just online

23:26

services. We'll still have Time magazine.

23:28

They're so important. I was like, no, my magazine

23:31

is over, like you know, like

23:33

you know, and he's the only one who got it. And he and I

23:36

really clicked immediately, and uh

23:38

started. He got me to come to the Journal to write

23:40

about this because he thought the Journal was not writing about

23:42

it properly. And I understood it, and I knew

23:44

them all. I knew Jeff Bezos. I knew Jeff

23:47

Bezos. Wasn't Jeff Bezos for a long time.

23:49

Now he's Jeff Bezos Prime back right whatever.

23:51

He was just a guy. He was just a startup guy that were really

23:53

bad pants at a pants.

23:57

Yeah, a lot of plead becky pants. Um,

23:59

you know, it's so funny. They were all like the Google

24:01

guys were in a garage, the um,

24:04

you know, just all of them were like Ellen

24:06

I met when he did this thing called x dot com. He

24:09

you know, he had a full head of hair and was kind of

24:11

geeky, like what was what was elan?

24:13

Originally? Was he part of the PayPal No, he

24:15

had a company called x dot com and that was a payment

24:17

company, and he and

24:20

they fought a lot PayPal PayPal,

24:22

there was that group, and then they they so

24:25

he eventually they did march, but there were two

24:27

separate companies and they were quite quite

24:29

unpleasant rivals. And then they got together.

24:31

So a lot of people told that their big genius

24:33

wasn't selling it to eBay. Right. A lot of people

24:36

came out of that PayPal group, Mosque

24:39

and Peter Thiel and a

24:41

whole run of folks in the tech world

24:44

trace back to that. So so

24:47

I remember Walt's early works

24:49

specifically as a reviewer of

24:52

services and computers

24:54

and technology, but you really came

24:56

in covering the Internet

24:59

business, the of of the

25:01

Internet, not so much as reviewer, but

25:03

as a straight up economic journalist,

25:05

financial journal I was a financial journalist. I think I had

25:07

an interest in the products, and of course, you know, well it

25:10

was great to have Walter's de partner eventually because

25:12

it was he had that part of it covered. Um,

25:14

he's a reporter to by the way, like he was. One

25:16

of the great things about Walt Musburg as a reviewer was that

25:18

he was a reporter first and foremost, and so he

25:21

reported out these products. A lot of people

25:23

who covered tech we're just fan boys and just you

25:25

know, just ridiculous. And well, sometimes he

25:27

loved stuff, sometimes he disliked it. So it was so

25:29

fair, you know, in terms of how he did it. And I

25:31

came in and covered the business of it and tried to understand

25:34

the stock stuff and because there was a lot

25:36

of you know, early froth around a lot of these

25:38

companies and what was what was not

25:41

true, what was true, what was a Ponzi

25:43

scheme? What was not? And so I covered these early

25:46

businesses, and I was quite bullish

25:48

on the whole big air sector. A lot

25:50

of reporters who covered the media at the

25:52

time kept calling telling me

25:54

I was covering CB radio or a fad, and

25:56

I didn't think it was a bad I remember, those are One

25:59

of the guys who called the CB rate to me is now working

26:01

for a digital content company and he's like

26:03

Mr Internet Now. It's always

26:05

amazing how how people are

26:07

still willing to believe whatever

26:09

it is that keeps their paycheck flowing. Well,

26:12

I was very worried. That's the reason I left the Washington

26:14

Post because I was like, when I loved Don Graham,

26:16

who's the owner of the Washington Post, but when I left,

26:19

and he's such a like an incredibly cordial

26:21

and just a fine person. And

26:23

he said, you know, Carol, why are you leaving? And I

26:25

said, the waters rising and you're on the lower floodplain.

26:28

And what was their response to that? And he was like ha

26:30

ha ha, And I'm like, no, really, you better because

26:32

I had covered retail. I had covered retails,

26:34

So I covered Walmart's entrance into

26:37

the retail space, the death of wonderful

26:39

retailers like Heckinger's and h.

26:42

Woody's, Woodward Lowthrop and garf

26:44

Ankles were the two like the death of depart You could

26:46

see what was happening in the original

26:48

problem was Walmart, you know, and the big

26:50

box stores. But then it became Amazon and

26:53

you could see glimmers of it with with Craigslist

26:55

and hitting the classified business.

26:58

Amazon still wasn't yet they but you could

27:00

see it see where it was going. And so um,

27:03

so I was like Wall Street Journal has a more

27:05

defensible position in media

27:07

right now. Um, and so I

27:10

went there, I thought. But then the Washington Post,

27:12

of course has revived itself with ownership by bring

27:14

it full circle. He has done a wonderful

27:17

job. I used to full disclosure, I used

27:19

to contribute to the Washington Post up

27:21

until Um.

27:24

I think that the Washington Post has reasserted

27:27

itself as one of the three major

27:30

papers in New York, and you've written

27:32

for all three figured of economics. They figured

27:34

out it's not just that it's a rich guy owning, it's actually making

27:36

money. They it's not none

27:38

of these businesses, not Times. They're

27:40

not like massive money making

27:42

throwing off money business. Street Journal always

27:44

had a million subscribers,

27:46

which is online subscribers, which is

27:49

a lot for probably The

27:51

Times isn't the best in this area. Well, post

27:53

Trump election, their subscription base

27:55

has exploded. Also, they've done a good job with a product

27:57

like you can't you can't separate the product from the text.

28:00

Their product is really quite good. And so I think

28:02

a lot of these people figured it out, and with

28:04

the help of Bezos, who wasn't going to be a twitchy owner.

28:07

Neither of the Grahams, whether they were wonderful owners.

28:09

Um, I think that they sort

28:12

of made it through the difficult period and

28:14

it just rationalize what they

28:16

were doing, and I could find I can tell you

28:18

every time I get my update from

28:20

Amazon that my bill for the Washington

28:23

Post has been passing stuff like that. That's an enormous

28:25

benefit for stuff like that like that, just great

28:27

journalism, great product. I think of things always

28:29

in terms of product. Is that a good product? Like when I

28:32

make stuff, this is a good product. And if it's not

28:34

a good product, I stopped making it. And then, unlike a

28:36

lot of journalists, I'll stop doing something if

28:38

I don't think it's a it's something that's worthwhile

28:40

to the users, the readers, or whoever

28:42

is doing it. What what products? What

28:45

products do you think are really strong

28:47

these days that recode box is doing?

28:50

And what are you watching? Because hey, let's see

28:52

how this developed? Is this too new? Is this too different?

28:54

Um? I'm i gonna tell you a new idea I have that I love. We thought

28:56

it the other night. I was standing there and like, oh, this, well

28:58

if it's not out yet, but it's not. But I was

29:01

thinking, this is what I'm gonna do next. I'm always

29:03

making something else, like I'm always look when

29:05

I started doing podcasting. For example, UM,

29:07

when I started doing Recode, everyone was like, what are you doing.

29:09

I'm like, no, We're gonna have a voicey news

29:12

based journalistic base but voicy,

29:14

funny site. Everyone's copied it

29:17

since like what we did, So it was Walton,

29:19

I really did pioneer. When you say voicey,

29:21

what do you mean by that? Like

29:24

Yahoo? When I was covering Yahoo, Yahoo

29:26

sucks, here's why

29:30

narky. No, no, no, we backed it with journalism,

29:32

you know what I mean? Or blunt blunt

29:34

like guess what the guy who's running Uber

29:37

ain't going to be running Uber And here's why.

29:39

You know what I mean, like saying things journalists

29:41

say to each other, but backing it up.

29:44

And one of the things that I had was it used to be at

29:46

the journal it's the to be sure

29:48

statement that's always in these stupid stories, to

29:50

be sure. Like when I was covering this company

29:52

within it was that's the way they yes,

29:55

like this online grocery that what was it? That

29:58

first there was one for it, a

30:00

lot of money behind it. Listen, it's

30:02

now figured out itself. At the time,

30:05

it was an insane like you looked at the numbers, You're like are

30:07

you kidding me? And Cosmo,

30:09

Yeah, that one one of them. And in New York

30:12

City like it

30:14

was, it was you just sat there like you're

30:16

losing so much money on every delivery.

30:18

It doesn't mean it didn't work.

30:20

Prime to work like you know what I mean, there's not there's ways

30:23

to figure it out. The idea was a good one. I

30:25

always try to separate the idea again

30:27

because he he talks about Chewi being

30:30

the modern dot

30:32

com and now ju Wayne Wright, who

30:34

was the entrepremour behind pet stot com,

30:36

is now with the real real What an amazing business that

30:38

is, right, So that's

30:41

the whole point. And so so when

30:43

I was writing about it, it was you. I

30:45

was like, this is this is this is terrible business.

30:48

They can scant go public. This is insane. And

30:51

the editor at the journal was like, well you have to, like,

30:53

you know, point out that this you could be

30:55

wrong. I'm like, I'm not wrong, this is like and

30:58

and they were like they're like, ha been And then

31:00

you have to do this to be sure. Some people say

31:02

that this business and I was like, to be sure some idiots

31:05

say and it was like, let me tut these idiots.

31:09

But but then I ran my own site, and then I could

31:11

say that like I can say that because it's

31:13

my site. And so we sort of pioneered that and

31:16

then it changed like everyone copied it. That's what

31:18

always happened. And then it wasn't the right like

31:20

having analog websites that people go to, it's

31:22

a losing game in in in the advertising

31:24

business online. So then I was like

31:26

sitting there and I saw what is an analog

31:29

site? You mean like meat spaces or what.

31:31

No. No, no, just like the way we were doing recode

31:33

ten years ago, we changed it like it shouldn't

31:35

look like a newspaper online. It should

31:37

be something not just that. No, we we did something

31:40

pioneering, but then it didn't work anymore, right, and we

31:42

tried something else, like I think the ability to try

31:44

something else, and so it just it's a long way of

31:46

getting into the podcast. I was sitting there,

31:48

I'm like, I like these these mobile devices

31:50

are now great, these apps are now great. I'm

31:53

gonna do this. I'm gonna do interviews because because

31:55

I had my code conference, the Code conference at Walt

31:57

and I did and I was like, why not

31:59

extend three sixty five days a year?

32:02

Like I can only do seventeen interviews a CODE. It's

32:04

always Elon Mosk or Mark zucker from but

32:06

there's always fascinating people that one

32:08

like you're doing here, And so I was like,

32:10

there's so many cool people that I could do the same

32:12

thing. People love the CODE conference. Why not bring

32:14

it out and make it free and make it sense.

32:16

So I started doing these interviews and I remember like

32:19

I literally had an intern in me do it, and

32:21

I'm running like I'm the head of the site and I'm like, I'm not

32:23

doing that anymore. I'm doing this, And so we

32:25

started doing it and a lot of people had opinions are

32:27

like, you know, people aren't going to listen for an

32:29

hour. I'm like, yeah, they are, like you know they

32:31

I was like I literally had that yes

32:33

exactly people, And I'm like, you don't know, give

32:36

me. People are in cars, people are on bikes, and people

32:38

are in treadmills. Millennials like

32:40

snack a Well, no they don't. They're smart. People

32:42

are smart. So it was like, well, I don't want these people

32:44

who like snack ables. They don't listen to me anyway. So

32:46

it was like I literally spent a lot of time and I

32:49

was like, I'm certain I'm right about this. But

32:51

then when we did the Galloway thing, Scott

32:53

came on the show because I had heard him at a at a conference.

32:55

I thought it was brilliant. It's got Galloway, wo would

32:57

you pivot with? And

33:00

know I had interviewed Ellen Zuckerberg,

33:02

like the head of Google everything, and

33:04

the numbers for Scott when I saw them come in

33:07

off the freaking chart. And also he predicted

33:10

the Amazon whole food That thing happened the week that is such,

33:12

predicted it a year in advance, goes

33:15

on your show a week in advance and

33:17

does it, and a week later, bang, and

33:20

people lost minds. People

33:22

like, oh, he works in branding. He must have known.

33:25

He wrote about it literally twelve so

33:27

anyway, so he so that show went off

33:29

the charts before that happened too, and I

33:31

was like, Hey, I'm gonna have one again and see what happens again

33:34

because it was our rapport, our discussion.

33:36

He was so insightful and smart, and so

33:38

I was like, we're going to start another podcast and

33:40

it's going to be only thirty minutes, maybe

33:42

twenty minutes, and it's not gonna be long. It's gonna

33:44

be quick, fast, topical in this and

33:47

now something like it needs to be an hour. I'm like, no,

33:49

it doesn't. It needs to be this link

33:51

because this is what this is what it is, and

33:53

it creates a little scarcity, keeps people coming exactly.

33:56

We may do another one during the week. That's

33:58

it. That's the talks. We've got a lot of advertising. A yeah,

34:01

um, and so what what you

34:03

know? You just have to be like you have to know what you are

34:05

or know what you're It's like cooking, Like I'm

34:08

making a cake now, and a lot of people want to

34:10

say what you really should do is be boring

34:12

you. I'm like, yeah, but I'm making a cake and like,

34:14

but be burging on. I'm like, yeah, go make your own. And

34:19

so I think people who are good at product know what the product

34:22

is and then are willing to make changes

34:24

to it when it doesn't work. So our conference,

34:26

for example, I'm still trying to figure out what

34:29

we've had seventeen years making so

34:31

much money at these conferences. By the way, podcasts

34:33

make a fortune because I think of things and would hope

34:35

businesses all the time. So anyway, so one of

34:37

the things like I'm Robb rethinking, like what isn't conference?

34:40

We have seventeen really successful

34:42

years, but it's changed. So I'm like, I

34:44

sit along, you know, and even to the point

34:46

and we're not doing this, But should I keep doing

34:48

it? Is it the right thing anymore? What is the next

34:51

thing? And so I'm constantly thinking,

34:53

and that's why I come up with this new thing that I think is going to make

34:55

a lot of money. Also tell us what

34:57

it is. I'm not gonna tell you what it is. It's not that

35:00

product. Well, when it comes out, you'll have to exist.

35:02

It exists in Carra Swisher's break. That's it. So you

35:04

got to be careful crossing. The thing that I think about what

35:06

Walton I did is like when I think about

35:09

what I'm really proud of is we created

35:11

a lot of jobs for people, Like families

35:13

lived on one idea that Walton I

35:16

had in nineteen. Whenever

35:18

we did a two thousand and two, Walton I

35:20

thought of something in two two and dozens

35:22

of people have jobs. It's

35:25

fascinating to me to think that way. Like, and

35:28

that was the all Things Digital platform

35:30

for conferences. Yeah, all Things Digital

35:32

conferences, you know, came out of a single

35:35

idea how many conferences are you guys do in a year?

35:37

Now, well, see, what

35:39

is a conference? Right? Look we did this live a bunch

35:41

of people in a room. Yeah, but I don't

35:44

I don't think that way. Like we have the main conference,

35:46

we have Code Commerce that's coming up in September,

35:48

We've got code Media. Um. But

35:50

then Scott and I did a live pivot the other

35:52

day that was huge. We sold out fourteen

35:55

seconds we sold that. So now I'm like, oh,

35:57

live podcast things. You know, the

36:00

pod saves America? I don't really

36:03

for two years? Really well, but

36:05

in a different like what should they be? Three d people?

36:07

Should be five hundred people? Should you get sponsors? The

36:09

sponsors were thrilled. Try y

36:13

is is really

36:16

been doing that for decades? Yes they

36:18

have exactly, but but what

36:20

about moving them around the country? Why not

36:22

exactly? So I'm thinking about that. So is that a conference?

36:24

It kind of is. What if you could add other things

36:26

onto a live podcast? Put

36:29

comics there, put like make it an

36:31

event. What if you can add experiential pop

36:33

ups to it. I'm like constantly thinking, like, what's

36:35

the next version of analog gathering?

36:39

That's smart? Smart is the

36:41

one thing the brand is always The

36:43

brands I'd like to make are always like what's

36:45

smart? Like what do smart people want

36:47

to listen to? What is additive to someone's life?

36:50

Every time I get a tweet from someone around Pivot,

36:52

I'm getting a lot of them around Pivot. I

36:55

just really enjoy it and I always come up with an insight.

36:57

I'm like, who can ask

36:59

for more than that? What you're describing what you

37:01

just did with Scott is quote

37:03

an evening with I mean, that's how that's

37:05

been, but it can be seen like and then then

37:08

the other day I was like, we have to have swag. We

37:10

can make a lot of money and swag, Like I'm always cut. That's

37:12

what I want to think about. And one of the things I

37:14

like to think about in products. Now we're gonna have swag. You can

37:16

have. You'll give you one free, but only one. Uma.

37:19

I never give away anything free. Um.

37:22

The the things that I think about

37:24

when they were thinking about products, is

37:26

is it useful? Is

37:28

it entertaining? Is it must

37:30

have? If you have one of those things, you usually

37:32

have a very successful projects. One. You don't need all

37:34

three, but if you have all three, that's killer. It's

37:36

a killer. You have two, but it

37:38

has to be one of those three things, right,

37:41

And you don't think like a journalist, you think

37:43

like an entrepreneur, right exactly, And it's

37:46

evident in your discussion. I

37:48

am going to uh, I do journalism

37:50

by the way you do journalism.

37:53

I consume journalism. My

37:55

extra special guest today is Kara Swisher.

37:58

She is in desperate need of

38:00

a real New York bagel and has been unable

38:03

to find one. I'm to

38:05

harsh your grin. Well, apparently

38:09

that thing is a blasphemy over coming

38:11

from Brooklyn. I never have lived. Well, there are no bagels

38:13

in Brooklyn. I don't know what anybody could possibly

38:16

fell in love with someone in Brooklyn. What can I say? Google

38:20

best bagels in Brooklyn. You'll find a list

38:23

anywhere along I know

38:25

where they are there on Second Avenue in fifty I

38:27

know where the bagels are so up

38:29

here. So you mentioned you fell in love with someone in Brooklyn,

38:32

and you mentioned I just mentioned Google.

38:34

I gotta ask you a random question. Please

38:37

your disclosures. You

38:39

don't mince any words whatsoever.

38:41

Fifteen years ago we did this. It's like,

38:44

Hey, here's who my spouse is, Here's

38:46

who she works. For here's this, I

38:48

don't get paid. Her money is hers money

38:50

is There's no conflict. That's

38:52

like a really blunt, straightforward

38:55

that was very innovative at the time. It was because

38:58

we trusted readers and we wanted. You

39:00

know, my ex was a

39:02

very prominent executive at Google and then later

39:04

became CTO of America. UM,

39:06

I had to meaning she was working for the Obama

39:08

White House as technology she's

39:10

the chief Technology Officer in the United States. Um.

39:13

But before that, she was a pretty prominent executive Megan

39:15

Smith at Google. She she ran Google

39:17

dot org. She was she bought

39:20

things, she bought the Google Earth for

39:22

them. I mean, she did a lot of stuff over there, and

39:25

um, and so I wanted I actually urged

39:27

her to go there when it was very small. Um,

39:29

hey, these guys are onto something. Yes, I was like,

39:32

these guys are special, Like you know, she was

39:34

looking around she was running another company and good

39:36

advice. So yeah, it was good advice. Thank You're welcome.

39:38

Megan. She's a very lovely house

39:40

in Washington, d C. Do to that, so

39:43

she should have several wish

39:45

I don't want to go into it. So anyway, she's doing

39:47

just fine. Um. So

39:49

so I wanted to disclose and you can't do that in a newspaper,

39:52

and I thought, why not be cleared everybody? So

39:54

we trust the reader too. We don't have

39:56

to say. One of the things General's trying to

39:58

do is like I'm completely even handed. It's like,

40:00

no, you're not. You have things that

40:02

you don't want people to grab onto them. I

40:04

foresaw sort of this Twitter day where everybody

40:07

could do gotcha to you, So before anybody

40:09

could get you, just explain and then we trust the

40:11

readers to be smart. And so that's Walton

40:13

I did. We full disclosure on a lot of stuff

40:16

right as much as we could, and there as much that

40:18

was relevant I think was it was it and

40:20

people love it. They just they like it. Again,

40:22

it's a respect for readers that we think about

40:24

that well, we don't think they're stupid. Well,

40:27

that's important to actually let people think,

40:30

um, you know what you're doing. You have nothing

40:32

to hide, you know. It goes back to Hunter Thompson

40:35

basically saying, hey, I'm not unbiased.

40:38

If you are my biases, I'm

40:41

Hunter S. Thompson. You'll figure

40:43

it out. Let's let's talk a little bit about silicon

40:45

Valley. You've lived in San Francisco for

40:48

five years, right, we could talk about

40:50

we can talk about this how much the city has changed. But

40:53

let's let's go a little south down

40:55

to the valley. Um,

40:58

how has Silicon Valley changed

41:00

over the past. It's just

41:02

money, just massive amounts of massive

41:05

amounts of capital and success has sort

41:07

of and and and the influence

41:09

and power. And I think one of the things that's interesting,

41:11

sort of like I would be akin to watching

41:14

Hollywood go from Orange Groves to the

41:17

power Louis B. Mayer and stuff like that.

41:19

And I think it was really you know, most of

41:21

the people I had covered and now

41:23

the captains of industry as the richest

41:25

people in the world, by the way, on every list, the people

41:28

they weren't that they were just startups.

41:31

And so I think some of them

41:33

have stayed true to the people

41:35

they are. Others have been warped

41:37

by money and not understanding

41:39

their power and not understand the

41:42

consequences of what they've built. Others

41:44

have been, you know, plunged into these ridiculous

41:46

wealth bubbles where they go from the airplane

41:48

to the car to their home and they

41:51

don't understand what they've done, Like

41:54

they don't spend They surround themselves by

41:56

people who's who's interest is

41:58

in pleasing them. Um, it's

42:00

often when then I run into him, like Mark Andrees

42:02

and I have known each other since he was very young

42:04

and I was very young, and you

42:06

know, I think very few people he's like the genius,

42:09

you know, Mark with his giant brain. But by the way,

42:11

when I did my interview with him,

42:14

I got all these emails complaining that

42:16

they could not listen to it on two

42:18

X because he speaks so

42:20

quickly. But you know, he's like very few people

42:23

will say something. I'm like, that's stupid, and he's like

42:25

what, And I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. He's not used

42:27

to hearing that, but he is. He's actually one of the people

42:29

who will go back and forth. But you know, even like you

42:31

know, just a lot of them, he's actually quite

42:33

good. He he always

42:35

thought a lot about himself, like and

42:38

I don't mind that. Well, you have to in order to

42:40

go out. And he was

42:42

confident from the get go. Shouldn't have

42:44

been um, well, he turned out tinsight

42:46

bias he could should have. He's

42:49

achieved a modicum of success, Like

42:51

whatever, I don't care, right, exactly.

42:53

But but but he wasn't what

42:56

my pushback to you is, he wasn't

42:58

an arrogant jerk about it and Silicon,

43:00

well do tell but

43:04

he was, Yes, he was

43:06

just no, no, no, he's the same person.

43:09

He's the same person, which I like. I appreciate

43:11

someone like that. I appreciate like or Mark

43:14

benny Off. I love talking to Mark ben right

43:16

or um smart, insightful,

43:19

insightful and he thinks of himself

43:21

he does, but I enjoy talking to him. He's really

43:23

like he is what he is like those people give

43:26

us the list of arrogant jerks you enjoy speaking

43:28

with. You know, very different people can be

43:30

the different ways. You know, Larry Page,

43:32

I don't know where he's gone to. He's hidden off, kind

43:34

of disappeared, he has, but he's always was like that.

43:36

He was always he was sort of a he

43:38

can now afford to do that? Was it him

43:41

or Surgery who was more of the serge

43:43

was more of the quiet one. Larry

43:46

is Larry, but Paige

43:48

Rank was really his. Yes,

43:50

Larry is really so brainy, so smart,

43:53

so substantive, like really special

43:56

mind. Um. But you know

43:58

they're all different that there, they differ read

44:00

but you know, and then you get all sort of the young startup

44:02

people that are now older. You

44:05

know, where do you put Peter Teal in this brilliant,

44:08

brilliant guy appalling of

44:10

points of view, many, many, many appalling

44:12

points of view? Did you get around

44:14

to reading conspiracy? I read his first

44:17

of all, not his book, the book about the Gawker

44:19

litigation, but you know that to me

44:21

just sent me over the edge, like doing a secret

44:24

lawsuit against someone if he really cared

44:26

do it out in the public like that to me was the

44:28

secret part to me was sneaky and awful.

44:31

Ryan Holiday's book about that is so fascinating

44:33

only because you learn,

44:36

even with two people, it's impossible to keep

44:38

a secret. It's it's astonishing. The

44:40

Gawker litigation is just an excuse

44:43

to describe the history of conspiracies. It's

44:45

really anyway, it's interesting. You know, he's brilliant,

44:47

but I don't agree with him almost everything. It's

44:49

fun and funny, and you know I always I sort

44:51

of poked at him quite a bit, and you know, he

44:54

he's brilliant. He is brilliant, but really, some who

44:57

else stands out to you in the valley visa The reason

44:59

I think Peter Till's interesting is I'm always like hot,

45:01

Like he wrote one book and I'm like it was very

45:04

Yeah. I was like, oh, so many interesting

45:06

things here, you know what I mean, I can't and

45:08

then he he says a lot of things.

45:10

I'm like, are you kidding me? You've got to be kidding.

45:12

The relationship with Trump, Yeah,

45:15

kind of surprising. That would you imagine from

45:17

a guy who's railing about

45:19

being oppressed as a gay man in Silicon

45:21

Valley, he doesn't care talk about strange bedfellows.

45:24

He doesn't care. It doesn't care. It doesn't care that

45:26

those aren't his concerns, and I think they should be a concern.

45:29

So that's kind of the old guard. What's

45:31

who? Let's talk about the most recent

45:33

round of companies. Really interesting entrepreneur. You've

45:35

written about Travis Um.

45:38

What are your thoughts about the whole frat scene

45:40

at Uber. Well, I think he's a Dara is a

45:42

very thoughtful and interesting person. I think he's

45:44

got the person who took over Yeah, Dark Coast for sha.

45:47

I think he's got a really tough economic question

45:49

to solve there, because you don't think you could just do

45:52

a whole bunch of rides at a loss, but make

45:54

it up in volume. I know, I think they've got

45:56

an economic problem and it's hard, and they've got

45:58

competition. I believe in moats, you know, I

46:00

think about moats. Amazon has built so many moats

46:03

now they still have They're gonna have problems

46:05

when when Amazon Web Services doesn't do as

46:07

well. So they've got to really think about what their moats

46:09

are. They've got a lot of them, um, and I think

46:11

any business has to have a lot of moats, and I don't think there's as

46:13

many moats around Ubers and the

46:15

market saying that right now, right right, the market

46:18

is si, well, they came out way too late, and they came out

46:20

very pricey to begin with. The market

46:22

is speaking if they would have, if they would have come out

46:24

cheaper and come out earlier,

46:27

maybe we be talking. I don't know. I think the

46:29

economics are off. They just you're getting a ten, you're

46:31

getting a fifteen. You're paying

46:33

ten dollars for twenty dollar ride.

46:35

That's what's happening, which is fantastic for

46:37

consumers. The same thing with you know, I just wrote about

46:39

we worked this week and your colleague calls it a PONZI.

46:42

Yes I did. I wrote a long column about it and included Scott

46:44

in that. Um, you know, I think it just

46:46

the economics don't make sense, Like, wait, you're telling

46:48

me if I get a floor in a building,

46:51

that floor shouldn't be worth more than the whole building itself.

46:53

Well, they're trying to pass themselves off as a tech

46:55

company, and I think that's what offense got nine

46:57

that. Do you remember Regious thirty years

47:00

ago reduced plus beer equals

47:02

multiple. Yeah, it just seems sort

47:04

of one of them has just gone up again. Redis R I C

47:07

I or something like that. You've got competitors. They

47:09

that business that that that I

47:11

p O perspectives was like one

47:14

of the analysts called a lesson

47:16

in obfuscation. I read that. I can't

47:19

recall the last time in S one maybe

47:21

it was Facebook, the last time

47:23

an S one came out and it was so completely

47:26

and totally line by line

47:28

taken apart, like we works were. Well,

47:30

it deserved it. I deserved it that.

47:33

You know, look, it could be a very it's a really interesting

47:35

disruptive brand. There's some

47:37

great ideas there, but not

47:40

enough for what for billion? There's

47:42

seven billion, great This all comes back to what

47:44

you said earlier about way too much capital

47:47

and silicon value chasing way too few

47:49

deals. Has that completely skewed

47:51

valuations, which, by the way, Andreeson

47:54

says we don't pay attention to valuation. Well that's

47:56

what he says. Yes, you know, I think it's you know,

47:58

once again in the public markets. Yes, I think it matters.

48:01

I think you're right. Who cares the vcs throw

48:03

you know, I always say there's not enough money to shove, not

48:05

up for ad holes to shove all the money down. And

48:07

there's that much money. So yeah, there's that much money. And so

48:10

you know, you've got SoftBank running around now. And

48:12

look when Andreason came and everyone's like, what's he

48:14

doing? Overpaying now? And Reason

48:16

looks like parsimonious compared to SoftBank.

48:19

That's a good word. So let me push back again

48:21

on some of the new tech companies. So

48:24

there's grub Street, which has been doing some

48:27

really dishonest things. If

48:30

we've just wrote about that about about the

48:32

tipping, not just the tipping, but taking

48:34

phone numbers for um

48:37

and registering websites that look

48:39

like the restaurants. If

48:42

you think Craigslist hurt media companies.

48:44

Grub Street is really damaging a

48:46

lot. Actually, it's a it's a bigger question you're

48:48

talking there's a bigger

48:51

question you're talking about, which is the ethics

48:53

behind some of this stuff. Like it goes to the bigger version

48:55

of data. How your data is being used, how

48:57

you're being manipulated online. Now you don't

48:59

get if your data is being used

49:02

and they're monetizing it, why don't you get a piece of

49:04

it? How does that happen that your data

49:06

which you own is being

49:08

monetized by someone else, Like that's like you

49:11

have to think about around face, But where's the benefit? Are

49:13

they paying you for that? Are

49:15

they disclosing enough? Are you allowed to opt

49:17

out? And so those are those bigger questions of how

49:19

all of us have become like you

49:21

know, if you remember the soiling

49:24

greens people like

49:26

you know, that's data is people, and

49:28

so the question is what do we do about that? And Congress

49:31

in general, on the bigger question, has

49:33

has done no regulation of the Internet ever,

49:36

unlike Europe, which has been very forward

49:38

on starting

49:40

to they're a decade ahead of they are there,

49:42

indeed, but it's still there. Haven't been really comprehensive

49:45

regulation of the Internet the way there's comprehensive

49:48

whether whilst she breaks it, there's comprehensive

49:50

legislation, whether chemical

49:52

companies violate things and break

49:54

the lot. There are laws, whether

49:57

they're you know, emission standards, which are now

49:59

the Fifornian the drum mininistrator California

50:01

looks like it's winning. Um oh god,

50:04

they're there, Sam. You

50:06

stop and think about this. The automobile industry

50:09

has invested so much money

50:11

in everything from hybrids to electric to

50:13

Cleanerody's going back, right, It's like,

50:15

wait, we've wasted billions of dollars if we

50:18

get to play, not going back. They don't want to go back. I want

50:20

to go back. And the future is these cars. They they

50:23

have a marketing and branding issues they want

50:25

to appeal to. Really,

50:27

you're on the downside of history here like Stop

50:30

like clean Cole Clean. So what's

50:32

what's interesting is that like Tony. So the question

50:34

is where are we gonna regulate like in California right

50:36

now, there's a privacy bill coming online

50:39

that's going to be the de facto for the

50:41

country. It is, and there's twelve others

50:43

across the country. So then tech companies are going

50:45

to be like, which one do we like, They're gonna have

50:47

to follow all of them. I think everybody like longs for

50:49

an idea of a privacy bill that has some teeth

50:52

that protects consumers, even these

50:54

companies, because it's like they don't. I don't.

50:56

I think confusion really creates problems

50:58

in markets, right and therefore

51:00

there should be a really strong national privacy

51:02

bill that one would

51:04

thing, but they can't agree on lunch in Congress right

51:07

now. You'd imagine there should be something around

51:09

anti discrimination there. You imagine there should

51:11

be something around Um, there's

51:14

all kinds of bills. I wrote about this Internet Bill

51:16

of Rights that they're thinking about, and there's a ten or twelve

51:18

things, and it's not one law. It's two

51:20

dozens of laws around the Internet to regulate.

51:23

And there's only one law right now, and

51:25

it benefits innet, which is section thirty,

51:27

which people are now revisiting. Oh, that was your

51:29

column revisiting an

51:32

obscure. It's not viscure. It's

51:34

a critical bill well, but originally it was

51:36

not well known publicly, and now

51:38

it's coming. It's been used by it's

51:41

as a shield. And so what's interesting I have

51:43

I have a podcast coming out today. I had

51:45

three people debate it today because I was like, let's talk about

51:48

this and educate people about it. But you know, that's

51:50

that bill is helpful to the internet industry

51:52

and the digital industry. So the question is

51:55

you can have that and we could you know, getting

51:58

rid of it's a huge mistake, but figuring out

52:00

where the responsibility is uh

52:03

is important and I think so therefore put stuff

52:05

around it and have some some

52:08

Everyone is like regulation is terrible. I'm like,

52:10

no, regulation is worse in

52:12

many ways because people don't know the rules of the road.

52:14

And you know, especially with these new technologies are

52:16

coming cars, some of the healthcare

52:18

stuff, the censor stuff, the AI stuff,

52:21

we need good law to to really

52:23

protect consumers. And many

52:26

people think, you know, even just the ability to sue

52:28

is a good thing. Like you know, there are

52:30

certain laws in place around pornography

52:32

and everything else, but there this is an

52:34

industry that needs to be regulated just the way

52:37

Wall Street is just the way, and

52:40

regulated they'll be They'll be overreached.

52:42

There'll be overreached, no question. But

52:44

the question is if there's none, maybe

52:47

we need a little Like so you're implying

52:49

about the right to sue. You know,

52:51

every all the boilerplate

52:54

that you shrink, wrap agreements that you sign,

52:56

have arbitration agreements. In the

53:00

musicians decency second to thirty does

53:02

take care of pretty much. They it's

53:04

been shipped away around uh, sex trafficking

53:06

in some other areas, but it's not really been shipped

53:09

away very much at all. And then there's a question

53:11

of you know, things like Elizabeth Warren was proposing,

53:13

which is breaking up some of these companies, And

53:15

that's Elizabeth Warren following again

53:18

your partner who's been talking talked about

53:20

that. So there's breakup, there's fees

53:23

that there's there's fines, there's all kinds of

53:25

different ways to figure out how to reign

53:27

in the Internet industry. And it depends on their

53:30

violations, it depends on their cooperation. Let's

53:32

do a quick speed round about

53:34

some of your favorite people, um

53:37

and since I mentioned Blade Runner, tell me

53:39

the first things that enter your minds

53:42

when I mentioned these people's name.

53:45

Elon musk Um,

53:47

visionary, visionary, Um,

53:51

unusual, the whole

53:53

crazy Joe Rogan thing was

53:56

blown a little out of No, he shouldn't

53:59

have done that. He's a seat you have a public company. A little

54:01

more circumspect would have been better, uh,

54:03

Jack Dorsey,

54:06

Oh, also thoughtful, but

54:09

opaque and

54:12

disengaged in a way I find troubling. Disengaged

54:15

meaning not responsive to the current

54:17

impact of his work. What he's doing,

54:19

what what are is doing right now? To the national discourse

54:22

is damaging and he has to think

54:24

more. He talks about healthy conversations, and

54:26

I really wish he would stop talking and do something.

54:29

Okay, speaking of damaging

54:31

the national discourse, Mark Zuckerbrook

54:33

ernest really lovely,

54:36

as you know, the

54:38

least arrogant considering who he

54:41

is, really quite thoughtful,

54:43

thoughtful person, absolutely

54:46

incapable of dealing with the task he has ahead

54:48

of him, incapable

54:50

that that's pretty pretty impressive. Um,

54:52

what about to use a lot of help? What about the Google

54:54

guys disengaged?

54:58

Really disengaged? Is

55:00

that a function of the just start not running

55:02

the company? So who is all

55:06

right? And and whoever is there?

55:09

What about the entire split

55:11

between Google and Alphabet or Google

55:14

projects. It's still the same kind. It's

55:16

search and everything else is an adult there

55:19

jumble of blocks. That's what they've always been like

55:21

Google years ago. There's a fortune magazine covered

55:23

chaos at Google. It's the same thing. It's

55:27

a chaotically organized company, and there's

55:29

there's a lot of obviously practices. It's a big,

55:31

giant company, makes a ton of money. It's very successful

55:33

in the way it does. But so from you know, the DNA

55:36

of any company is the DNA of its beginnings, and

55:38

that doesn't change. Chaotic, but that's

55:41

doesn't it's not a messory bad thing. Even

55:43

at Microsoft, has that DNA

55:45

changed. Yes, I have a huge

55:47

respect for such an Adela amazing. I

55:50

think he's a thoughtful uh

55:52

measured you know,

55:54

not as not as exciting screaming

55:57

and stuff like that, but just a really

56:00

he's done a great job in defining

56:02

talk about defining your products. He knows

56:04

who he is, he knows what Microsoft is

56:06

interesting read Hastings. Lovely smart.

56:09

Oh, I just enjoy talking to him. Really,

56:12

just a great thinker. He's

56:14

just we don't always agree on

56:16

things, but boy, what a what a smart man.

56:20

I like he pulled himself off the board of Facebook.

56:23

That was interesting. Oh

56:25

really, I think it was tired of arguing with him. I'm guessing

56:28

right, And huh,

56:31

Benny Off you mentioned Earl hysterical,

56:33

fun, great guy for

56:35

a drink. You want to go up for a drink with that guy? Always

56:38

interesting conversation can

56:40

be blowhardy, but I like it. I like the whole

56:42

jam. I like it started act. I like

56:45

his whole commitment to the city. I think it's

56:47

genuine. I like he's

56:49

that he's loud about it. Everyone's like, oh, he's just loud

56:51

about I'm like, yeah, but he does things like I don't care,

56:53

let him brag, let him. I

56:55

like him. He's just a really fascinating

56:58

character. I really enjoy talking it. I always

57:00

I never not interested

57:02

in talking to him. Andrewson painting

57:06

really, but I'm surprised in

57:08

a good way, in a bad way

57:10

to some of his new tweets. He's tweeting

57:12

some crazy definitely, but he took a long

57:15

tweet vacation, a couple of whatever. He's

57:17

like Mark whatever, he's

57:21

I argue with him a lot, but I enjoy it. I

57:23

hate don't know. I hope he's not listening. Oh he's

57:25

listening. Okay, Well, what are the vcs

57:27

are worth bringing up? John Door, Bill Gurley

57:30

who John's a very thoughtful person.

57:32

He's not put a book recently, he's

57:34

put on a book, we did a podcast. He's always

57:37

been I think, Um,

57:39

he's John. You know, he's

57:42

a seems ethical. What

57:44

what other VCS did I not get to that?

57:46

That tramp? Do

57:49

not know him. He's great, He's

57:52

just a character and sok on Valley. Um, you

57:54

know, I think you know, there's lots of VCS

57:56

you don't know about, like my Michael Deering.

57:59

There's all sorts of interesting Aileene

58:02

Mary Meeker, there's all sorts of really

58:04

well you all know who Mary Meeker. Yeah, she's great, she's

58:06

great. I met her when she was an analyst at Morgan

58:09

Stan. I used to stay up nights talking about the

58:11

Internet with her in like the nineties, early

58:13

nine She got it. She got it in fact

58:16

too enthusiastic, but she was right directionally she

58:18

was correct. I've argued that the difference

58:20

between her and people got into trouble. Like Henry

58:23

Blodge is she was a true believer who and

58:26

being wrong is not prosecutable.

58:28

She was early, She was early, but she was right.

58:31

She was right in the long term. She was probably

58:33

wrong several times. The term evaluation

58:36

his reel cynical. I like Henry,

58:38

I think he got a He's also a beautiful writer. Um,

58:41

Who have I missed Steve Jobs? Oh

58:43

fascinating. I really enjoyed interviewing him.

58:45

What an interesting and complex person, Um,

58:48

I always say. And I've gotten

58:50

to his wife quite a bit. His widow, Lauren

58:53

Lorraine, who's really really

58:55

interesting to talk to. She's very active

58:57

in philanthropy, not just philanthropy, all kinds

58:59

of all kinds of interesting and I find her to be

59:01

very interesting in her investment stuff.

59:04

She's very thoughtful. Another very thoughtful person. Um

59:07

has a lot of points of view which I like. I like one

59:09

of the point of you assume Job was you know he was just

59:12

it would have complicated and interesting person. I know

59:14

everyone sort of like tried to cartoonize people.

59:16

He was mean to people. I'm like, yeah,

59:19

but lots of people are me. No,

59:23

No, I don't think he was. You know, I have his

59:26

ratio of productivity was so high, and

59:28

you know, all those speeches around death were so what

59:30

an interesting person who challenged

59:32

himself from a philosophical point of view, I

59:35

don't think he had a lot of people always

59:37

say he was heartless. This is what I say all

59:39

the time. He had too much heart he had

59:41

too much heart. It was too there were so many

59:43

things going on with him. I always we

59:45

did eight Walt and I did eight eight interviews

59:48

or more with him. Very nobody had the body

59:50

of interviews that we did with him, and that

59:52

was every single one of them were fascinating

59:55

conversations, and of course he's going to be seen

59:57

as one of the most important. And we did one with Gates and

59:59

Jobs together. I recall that that was really very

1:00:02

interesting. That's going to go down in history

1:00:04

that you know, I'll be forgotten, But not that interview.

1:00:06

Larry Ellison hysterical,

1:00:09

hysterical, really

1:00:11

just I just loved talking to him. I mean,

1:00:13

you know, he's you

1:00:15

know, you know, and he's sort of the old days of

1:00:17

like vaguely

1:00:19

sexist, sometimes very sexists all Coon Valley,

1:00:22

like the old like sells Off where

1:00:24

everybody like that kind of stuff. I gotta

1:00:26

tell you, he's a really you know, he's raised two

1:00:28

really interesting children too, Like what are

1:00:30

the kids doing? The kids are moviemakers. They

1:00:33

make Star Trek and his daughter makes

1:00:35

some amazing movies. Is like a

1:00:37

really interesting filmmaker. And his son

1:00:39

makes more like Terminator and and

1:00:41

Star Trek. The recent Star Treks, which are very good

1:00:43

movies that star trek Ones particularly,

1:00:46

And so I don't know. I just he's

1:00:48

a he just he's

1:00:50

one of the few titans left kind

1:00:53

of thing. Uh. Scott McNeely was

1:00:55

someone I haven't heard from. I just

1:00:57

did a podcast with him. Not a podcast, I did

1:00:59

a column in York Times went around privacy,

1:01:02

privacy, get used to it, that kind of thing. Um,

1:01:05

he's which is the inverse of what people

1:01:08

used to say. No, he was the first one to

1:01:10

really identity that you have no privacy, get used

1:01:12

to it. Um. That was a really prescient thing

1:01:14

he said. I'm not sure I agree with him on a lot of political

1:01:16

stuff. He's quite he has a

1:01:19

he has a problem with Hillary Clinton, is he

1:01:21

needs to let go of still even

1:01:23

to this day he's talking to him. I'm like, you know, she's a

1:01:25

private citizen, is never going to be president. You really

1:01:27

can move along, Like I feel like you've

1:01:29

handled Hillary Clinton, so like, let's

1:01:32

some people who don't like or really can whatever.

1:01:35

It's just funny. I was sort of like, can we stop talking

1:01:37

about Hillary Clinton and start discussing the current

1:01:39

state of affairs? What? What about

1:01:41

CEOs? I haven't mentioned what company interesting

1:01:44

ones like Brian Chowsky from Airbnb. I

1:01:46

think he's very thoughtful and interesting. I'll be in such an

1:01:48

interesting company when that goes public. I think he thinks

1:01:50

very carefully about stuff, and he understands what

1:01:53

I like about him as he understands the impact. He

1:01:55

may not always do the right thing, and they've had a lot of

1:01:57

mess ups and everything else. They had some early mess ups that I

1:01:59

think taught them a lot. But I think he's extraordinarily

1:02:02

thoughtful about his impact

1:02:04

and you very and I don't

1:02:07

think it's just yammering. I think he actually

1:02:09

knows that his company has negative and

1:02:11

positive impacts. So he's

1:02:14

able to discuss the negative impacts without

1:02:16

being defensive. And it's a pleasure to talk

1:02:18

to him. Tim Cook, I love the talk. I

1:02:20

didn't get to think Tim Cooks are really he's

1:02:22

an adult. I've done some very good interviews

1:02:24

with him. People assumed that when Jobs

1:02:27

left that would be it for Apple, But here we are, what

1:02:29

is it six years later? You

1:02:32

know they've still got the issue. If they've got to have what's

1:02:34

the next hit? They're like the Rolling Stones, like when's

1:02:36

your next hit? Like there at some point they can't keep

1:02:38

making Like it's just like they have such a record,

1:02:40

you're almost like a good job, you

1:02:43

know. I feel like that I'm kind of old, but I'm keep making

1:02:45

hits, so and so they can keep making it. It's

1:02:47

a really they've done so much amazing

1:02:49

stuff that this year there's a lot of Yeah,

1:02:52

there's stuff around that show looks pretty

1:02:54

good. Um, we'll

1:02:56

see the problem with that show. And

1:02:58

you brought this up with competing

1:03:01

with content between Netflix

1:03:03

and Amazon and Hulu and everybody else.

1:03:06

It's really hard to lu

1:03:08

I thought they should have brought Netflix five years ago when

1:03:12

I wrote that, and people gave me grief about it.

1:03:15

I think it was fifty billion dollars and people give me grief.

1:03:17

It was like two that

1:03:20

was a missed opportunity. They could still do it so

1:03:22

much. Well, it's a rounding era to them. But you

1:03:24

know there, I liked him cook, I really enjoy I think

1:03:26

he's been one of the adults in the room

1:03:29

and has been very toughful. A lot of people think he's taking advantage

1:03:31

of, like sort of being a school marm, but I don't

1:03:33

care. I like it versus Facebook to

1:03:36

some degree. You mean in terms of hey to

1:03:39

say, you know, I asked him. I didn't

1:03:42

think he was going to answer, but he did. I asked

1:03:44

him in this interview I did in Chicago last year.

1:03:46

Um it was a live interview to school, and

1:03:49

I said, what would you do if you were

1:03:51

Mark Zuckerberg? And he said, I wouldn't be in the situation.

1:03:53

In the first I was like, that's

1:03:55

a genus answer, right, that's

1:03:58

he's not like, that's like he never does

1:04:00

that. They have a bone to pick

1:04:02

with Facebook, Well, yeah, they it's also calculated

1:04:05

bone because their business is not is not advertising.

1:04:07

It's an excellent business opportunity to smack

1:04:10

them and and I think and they believe it. And by the way,

1:04:12

Steve Jobs was talking about this with us ten

1:04:14

years years about Facebook, about

1:04:16

privacy about very strangely,

1:04:18

and you can talk about that when it's not your business,

1:04:21

right, So I guess you could go on about

1:04:23

how porn talks like and it's it's

1:04:25

insulting to women and that because it's

1:04:27

not my business. So you know, it's

1:04:29

it's actually good for me if they're competing with me. So

1:04:31

I think a lot of people feel like Facebook and he's taking

1:04:34

advantage of the situation. But I'm okay,

1:04:36

So what meanwhile,

1:04:38

did you happen to catch the sixty minutes

1:04:41

about that Israeli company

1:04:43

that basically has licensed the technology.

1:04:46

I think it's called Pegasus that hack can

1:04:48

hack any phone anywhere in the world.

1:04:51

I assume that's happening already. But I mean there

1:04:53

is literally an Israeli company who was given

1:04:55

grief because they licensed it to Saudi

1:04:58

Saudi Arabia and fearically

1:05:00

they use this technology now. But that's going to catch up

1:05:02

that this It's going to be a constant arms

1:05:04

race for all this stuff. There's gonna be like, look,

1:05:06

I assume everything is hacked. That's just not the

1:05:08

study. And so so LA is

1:05:11

right. There is no privacy. There is no there hasn't. But

1:05:13

you can't control your privacy. That's different.

1:05:15

You don't own you know it's out there, but you

1:05:17

can there's ways to control. And they haven't done any

1:05:20

job whatsoever and helping you do. So one

1:05:22

thing you even talked about is Trump and is tweeting. All the tweeting

1:05:24

like that's just such an important thing. It's

1:05:27

governing by Twitter. So it's

1:05:29

funny because every time a conversation

1:05:32

comes up about g the

1:05:34

president and and this is just the most recent

1:05:36

one. The President is haranguing

1:05:38

the Federal Reserve chair. Uh,

1:05:41

that's never happened before. And what the answer

1:05:43

to these tend to be is, well,

1:05:45

it has happened before, just it's always

1:05:47

been private. And to do it publicly,

1:05:50

to do a vocation and weaponization

1:05:52

that it is provided by these tools, these online

1:05:55

tools, is really unprecedented. Everyone's

1:05:57

like people have done from like no, not like this,

1:05:59

and and you know, just the two examples. I wrote

1:06:02

a calm about this the when they when

1:06:04

they the census thing was happening, right, which

1:06:06

we'vegotten about. Remember that, Well, it's

1:06:08

the the outrages come so fast and furious,

1:06:10

you can't keep up. So he by design

1:06:13

they had made a decision to back away from

1:06:15

adding that question, and suddenly he tweets

1:06:17

that, oh yeah, we're putting an end. And then the

1:06:20

lawyer for the Justice Department

1:06:22

is like, I don't know what he meant in

1:06:24

the tweet. We need to call him, like what

1:06:26

like governing by tweet? And then he did it this

1:06:29

week with Greenland. Well, wait before we

1:06:31

go to Greenland, stay with the census

1:06:33

question. Governing by twitter. Here's the

1:06:35

fascinating thing. The last

1:06:38

landed gentry in the United States

1:06:40

are federal judges. What they

1:06:42

say goes in their court, and you

1:06:45

can be in jail as a lawyer

1:06:47

who's been who's been fined for

1:06:50

um, disrespecting the court, and eventually

1:06:53

the appeal will go your way, and after six months of

1:06:55

jail you come out. That judge

1:06:57

said to that lawyer, your answer

1:06:59

is this honest and if you

1:07:01

don't get me the answer I want, there's

1:07:03

going to be hell to pay. I think he threatened them

1:07:06

with contempt of court and sending them

1:07:08

to jail until it's resolved, and he

1:07:10

held them accountable. It was fascinating. He's

1:07:12

like, you're responsible for this, it's

1:07:14

your client to the lawyers because literally

1:07:16

they're saying there like it's Twitter. What But

1:07:19

literally he's governing by Twitter, Like what do you do? Like I

1:07:21

can see the person is sitting there, like what do we do? Now?

1:07:23

Who do we call? He just tweeted it, like what

1:07:25

does that mean that the interpreting it. You're

1:07:27

an officer of the court and you have an obligation.

1:07:30

But I'm talking about on a personal level. I mean, like just

1:07:32

like Maddest when he was tweeting about that transgender

1:07:34

So he just ignored him right

1:07:37

and pulled someone into the office said no,

1:07:39

not doing But by the way, he twitter resident

1:07:42

and you're ignoring the residence of the whole thing is saying

1:07:45

yes, but it's also in you

1:07:47

can't do that like that. That's called we have

1:07:49

a system. So it's really fascinating, Well, we

1:07:51

have a system, and if you want me to do something, give me

1:07:53

an official executive order, not a

1:07:55

tweet. We don't want people anticipating

1:07:57

with the president. Nobody's anticipated that you could

1:07:59

do that, because he did it again with Greenland. I'm not going

1:08:01

to Greenland. The ambassador to Greenland

1:08:04

was like, welcome, Mr President, and then he tweets

1:08:06

that like just at the same time,

1:08:09

and then they're like they're all scrambling, like somebody

1:08:11

had an interesting theory that pre scheduled

1:08:15

at the end of the month. Is Obama

1:08:17

going to Greenlands? And he didn't want

1:08:19

to be compared with the adoring

1:08:23

think you know, I think. But

1:08:25

it's really interesting because it's a perfect medium

1:08:27

for this guy. He's like the troll in chief.

1:08:29

He's twitchy, he's raging,

1:08:32

he's it's everything about the way Twitter

1:08:35

is designed, and the way they've architect it is

1:08:37

perfect for Donald Trump, and he's that's

1:08:39

why he's so good on it. Now, then you see

1:08:41

someone like AOC who's also good on it,

1:08:43

but he's good in a different way. Future president,

1:08:46

he's exactly he broadcast or possibly

1:08:48

he broadcasts, and she

1:08:51

speaks the language. So I find her fascinating

1:08:53

in that way. And I don't know. I think Nancy Policy is right,

1:08:55

you just gotta get the votes. I think she's got to. She's

1:08:58

a natural. She's of that general minds. If

1:09:00

she combines the ability to communicate beautifully

1:09:03

on social media with an ability

1:09:05

to get votes and really actually do the

1:09:08

mechanations of democracy which

1:09:11

you need the votes, like that's really it, that

1:09:13

will be very powerful. I think Trump just

1:09:15

he just creates havoc, and that's that's also

1:09:17

a talent to create havoc. He uses,

1:09:21

but it's he has unique.

1:09:23

Just the way John F. Kennedy used the television,

1:09:25

He's using Twitter and social media, no

1:09:28

doubt about it. We

1:09:30

have been speaking with Kara Swisher. She

1:09:32

is the co founder of Recode

1:09:34

and the author of numerous books

1:09:36

on technology. If you enjoy this

1:09:39

conversation, be sure and check out our podcast

1:09:41

extras, where we keep the tape rolling

1:09:43

and continue discussing all things

1:09:45

tech related. You can find that at

1:09:47

iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcast,

1:09:50

Overcast, Stitcher, wherever your find our

1:09:52

podcasts are sold. We love your comments,

1:09:54

feedback and suggestions right to us

1:09:57

at m IB podcast at Bloomberg

1:09:59

dot net. Check out my weekly

1:10:01

column at Bloomberg dot com.

1:10:03

Follow me on Twitter at rid Holts. Sign

1:10:06

up from my daily reads at rid

1:10:08

Halts dot com. I'm Barry rid Halts.

1:10:11

You're listening to Masters in Business

1:10:13

on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome

1:10:17

to the podcast. By the way, Kara, thank you so much

1:10:19

for doing this. You were tough to track down. I

1:10:21

had to pull in some favors.

1:10:23

Galloway who um has

1:10:25

been on my podcast. I've done to fifty

1:10:28

something now, more than any five

1:10:31

years two really

1:10:33

and that doesn't count Pivot. That's a lot, but

1:10:36

minor roll three four hours, so it's a little

1:10:39

so. By the way, just so you know, I've

1:10:41

been a listener to Pivot from the beginning.

1:10:44

When I'm I'm up early early East

1:10:46

Coast time working on my my various

1:10:49

and sundry things, my my frippery,

1:10:51

UM and I like to have

1:10:54

something playing in the background and you guys,

1:10:57

you guys are well. We

1:10:59

really didn't get into the podcast much, but

1:11:03

I love the combination

1:11:05

of you as who you are and

1:11:09

Scott as an alpha male

1:11:12

East Coast weirdest chemistry people. It's

1:11:14

it's fantastic anywhere I go there, Like where Scott,

1:11:17

I'm like, no, no, we're not married, Mary,

1:11:19

we don't hang out, but we sound like a married couple. It's sort

1:11:21

of like I was trying to think of, like is it Kathie Lee

1:11:23

and Regis is remember moonlighting?

1:11:26

You know what I mean. It's that kind of thing that's going

1:11:28

on there. It's a really interesting, um

1:11:31

it's a really interesting chemistry we have. And I think

1:11:33

it's because I'm like, like, he's being alpha

1:11:35

male on purpose, right,

1:11:38

he's allowing the testosterone poison,

1:11:41

but he's also like sort of sort of like

1:11:44

he's a woke alpha yeah exactly, kind of like,

1:11:46

oh God, I said something stupid and I'm like, you're an idiot.

1:11:48

Like he says stuff to you that I

1:11:50

just like, crack up, and he's trying

1:11:52

to provoke you. I was like, your one statement

1:11:55

away from the end of your career. All the time,

1:11:57

like I'm trying to protect and you can see me trying to protect.

1:12:00

It's a really good it's a really interesting

1:12:02

thing, and we're going to try to do more of them. And it's

1:12:04

just you can't. You cannot capture

1:12:07

that with just about anything. I had that report with Walt

1:12:09

in a different way too, So it's really hard

1:12:11

to do that. And I was I'm thrilled.

1:12:13

I enjoy doing it, which I can

1:12:15

tell you know it comes across he

1:12:18

enjoyed. We enjoy it like it's fun. And I think

1:12:20

that's what's most important, is to you

1:12:22

know, love the life

1:12:24

you live right kind of thing like we love it, And

1:12:26

that's that's how you make great things, if you really enjoy

1:12:28

yourself once an episode, I here hold me, Kara.

1:12:31

You know it, you know it's coming. He has

1:12:33

all kinds. I'm a gangster. Hestake me a texting.

1:12:36

Barry's a gangster. I'm like, oh Jesus, can

1:12:38

I tell you? Can I tell you the gangster?

1:12:42

Can I tell you? The funniest thing he's ever said

1:12:44

I ever heard him say so. He knows I'm

1:12:46

a car guy. We were talking about cars

1:12:49

and I misheard him. I thought he said g

1:12:51

wagon. I didn't realize he had a g

1:12:54

L wagon. That you wagon is I don't even

1:12:56

know what you're talking, all right, So Mercedes start

1:12:58

bring up football. I'm going to Mersey's

1:13:00

makes this military vehicle that looks

1:13:02

like a giant jeep on steroids.

1:13:05

It's like a hundred and fifty thou dollars.

1:13:07

Why do you need this? Nobody needs it. It's the

1:13:09

worst dumbest thing in the world. And when

1:13:11

I heard him say g wagon g L,

1:13:14

I thought he said g wagon, what would that

1:13:16

be? So g L is like a

1:13:18

normal STV g L wagon is this?

1:13:22

Well, like that's what I thought. I go, I

1:13:24

go, Scott, I don't know about you and this g wagon

1:13:26

And his answer was no, no, g

1:13:29

L, not g wagon. He goes, I'm insecure,

1:13:31

not pathetic. I still

1:13:33

get emails from people about that. Silly. It's

1:13:36

funny he goes, and when he when we go places.

1:13:38

And what's really striking about that podcast is

1:13:41

I am stopped so much on the street, like

1:13:43

tell Scott to screw it, like and really,

1:13:45

yeah, I feel like we don't have a TV show

1:13:47

because it's really funny. People like he

1:13:49

was walking on the tarm and of course he's going to the Hampton's

1:13:51

and a helicopter. I'm not doing that. I'm like, I'm

1:13:54

in a car with my kids. And really

1:13:58

he was shoppering and I'm literally driving a car card

1:14:00

to Province down with my pregnant girl, right and

1:14:02

my two teenage sons. And it's like and

1:14:05

he and the guy who does the waves

1:14:07

the helicopter down with the two batons.

1:14:11

He has the earphones on and he sees Scott

1:14:13

and he goes, where's Gara?

1:14:15

Which was really funny. Kara is driving like

1:14:17

a car up to the

1:14:20

cape, is what Kara is doing? Anyway. That's

1:14:22

that's very He's in Nantucket, of course, because

1:14:24

he's the elite. Is Nantucket

1:14:26

considered the Oh my god, been there?

1:14:28

That I'm not. I'm

1:14:31

in the top ten percent. I'm not in the top. One color

1:14:33

in your house is everything has to look the same, the

1:14:36

wooden shingles, and you need to

1:14:38

not go to Nantucket in a province town,

1:14:41

you gotta pick. I'm a Fire Island guy. I'm

1:14:43

very Fire Island faddle

1:14:46

classic out

1:14:48

there exactly all right, So I have to

1:14:50

let you go eventually. So let me jump to my

1:14:53

favorite questions that I asked all of my guests.

1:14:56

I know you don't own a car now, but what

1:14:58

was the first car you ever owned? Hot a Civic,

1:15:01

good, good, reliable car. Shift. I have a ship.

1:15:03

I always have shift car, me too, cars, my

1:15:07

jeep. Everything is a stick shift.

1:15:09

And my wife is now a better driver with

1:15:11

a stick than I am. It's really uh swagon

1:15:14

for years, which one bug

1:15:17

or something? Later and then I had a rabbit. When

1:15:19

it was a rabbit, it's called something, it's called and

1:15:23

then and then I had a minivan.

1:15:25

I had a hont Of minivan when I but not before I had

1:15:27

kids. I had a Honey Minivan. Then I had a less Bru

1:15:29

of course a super You

1:15:32

saw there was a big article not too long ago about

1:15:34

how Subru became

1:15:36

the car of choice of lesbians, and I think it was

1:15:38

vany fair. It's a very interesting

1:15:41

less Brue. I had a less Brut and then I never

1:15:43

heard of call. I had a jeep for New York

1:15:45

Manager. They're the worst, terrible,

1:15:48

although to be fair, they're unstoppable

1:15:50

in the snow. I had I had one

1:15:52

with the with the with the like a real

1:15:55

jeep. And I had one that was had a hard

1:15:57

top, and I hated both of them, and then I

1:15:59

had an Then I started getting into masses. I love

1:16:01

masses and I love the Mazda. I

1:16:03

wanted a Masta too, but mosta

1:16:05

three, and the three is a happy car. It's

1:16:07

a good car. It's had a great happy fix. That was a

1:16:09

great car. And then I just recently

1:16:11

had a Ford Fiesta Turbo. That's why

1:16:13

I'm so sorry there was no I'm telling you that's

1:16:16

a great years ago. I hated, no the

1:16:18

Turbo. It really

1:16:20

is a good car. Don't insult the Ford Fiesta. I will tell you.

1:16:22

I rented a Ford Edge the other day and I was

1:16:24

surprised at how good car. Herbo was a different car.

1:16:26

Everyone made fun of me, and then they got in it with its stick

1:16:29

shift and we're like, oh, I see, Oh, this

1:16:31

is wonderful little car. It was a great little car.

1:16:33

But I do not have any cars. I had a Vespa for many

1:16:35

years, but I never wrote it. I had what

1:16:37

do you mean you never drove it? I just in Sanrancis was

1:16:39

too cold. I had it in San Francisco. My my

1:16:41

ex gave it to me as a Valentine's present. But

1:16:44

I love scooters. I write scooters all the time, and I

1:16:46

love I love scooters. What's

1:16:48

the most important thing people don't know

1:16:51

about? Kara Swish and I love scooters. No, people

1:16:53

know that, No, that I love. I

1:16:56

love action films with really

1:16:58

bad action films like I

1:17:00

just I just love those I love. I go to all of them

1:17:03

and I go by myself. I don't want to like, how are you

1:17:05

with people about how they are? Really?

1:17:07

I just go I love them, I love them, I love them,

1:17:09

I love I love Mission Possible. I

1:17:11

love Bond. I'm so excited the new Bond

1:17:13

film is coming out and Drew Elba going

1:17:16

to be No, no no, it's gonna be Daniel Craig again. Well

1:17:18

that's this one. I've seen every Bond movie ten times,

1:17:21

even the bad ones, and uh, I love

1:17:23

all those movies. I like. I'm excited for

1:17:26

Kristen Stewart and Underwater. I like anything

1:17:28

action and I also love Fast and

1:17:30

Furious franchise. I love and I love the rock Jack

1:17:33

Reacher. Have you seen the joke? Yes, so I'm

1:17:35

not going to name something. How about Night and

1:17:37

Day? Yes, of course, with me without

1:17:39

me, I love it. Let's talk about mentors.

1:17:42

Tell us about your mentor that's it.

1:17:44

One name. Bang. He recruited you

1:17:46

to the journal. How did he affect

1:17:48

how you developed as a journalist. He was so

1:17:51

generous with his power. He had so much

1:17:53

power and was so generous and

1:17:55

and and really it's such a good mentor

1:17:57

to women in the in the way

1:17:59

never air to mentor a woman, never

1:18:02

early he has. There's

1:18:04

a group of women he's mentored in a way

1:18:06

that has been and specifically made sure

1:18:08

he did that because he understood they were they

1:18:11

there were there were issues. Always had

1:18:13

my back. Um just and

1:18:15

I can I can be uh difficult,

1:18:19

not difficult? No, no no difficult. That's what Scott

1:18:21

told me. He said, you were difficult. No, I'm not difficult.

1:18:23

I'm not difficult. I think. I know what I want and I can

1:18:25

say it very loudly and I don't you

1:18:27

know, I think and I do it around powerful people like Rupert.

1:18:30

Mark said time to me, I was like no, and everyone

1:18:33

was like WHOA, what do you do? At one

1:18:35

point it was let me tell

1:18:37

you this very very so we would meet with him.

1:18:39

Mark loved Walt Moss Burt love, He

1:18:42

loved reading him. He was thrilled when he bought the journal. Always

1:18:44

had Walt to lunch and everything, and

1:18:47

I was always with him, right like I

1:18:49

was there. I'm certain Rupermar

1:18:52

didn't know my name. He thought you were hit Walt's assistant.

1:18:54

He knew, he was aware that I was his

1:18:57

partner, you know what I mean, But he

1:18:59

didn't know. I was like he didn't and so

1:19:01

he never he'd be like wall, Wall,

1:19:04

Wall, how are you? How are you're doing? You know? Mumbles?

1:19:06

And I was always with him,

1:19:08

and so he later knows who I am.

1:19:10

And he used to call me a lot during the Internet

1:19:13

thing like what do you think of this company? What do you think that? Which was interesting.

1:19:15

I'd get a call like four in the morning for moving Rupert's

1:19:17

call on the phone and I'm like, all right, sure

1:19:19

or whatever. But um, but

1:19:22

he we were in the office one day

1:19:24

and he's like wha and he goes, well hello, and I

1:19:26

go listen. I

1:19:29

don't think you know my name, but it's

1:19:31

Kara Swisher. Next time I come,

1:19:33

I'd like you to say hi, Kara, because I want you to

1:19:35

remember my name if you don't mind. But I don't think you

1:19:38

know my name right now. And I'm sorry to be rude,

1:19:40

but I'm just wanting like why pretend? What was the

1:19:42

reaction He's like, I know your name. I'm like, well,

1:19:45

I said, all right, if you know what you do, but I don't

1:19:47

think you do. I know it, and I go, all right,

1:19:49

I don't think you do. And I was like, what was like? Stop

1:19:51

at Carol and the next time you showed up, he

1:19:54

said, you always knew my name after That's very,

1:19:56

very funny. Let's talk about books. We've

1:19:58

touched on a few books and will include your

1:20:00

books. What are some of your favorite books,

1:20:03

tech non tech? What do you like? I'm

1:20:05

reading I've been reading ron Cherno

1:20:07

Hamilton's book for six years now, can't finish.

1:20:11

He ends badly, um

1:20:13

no no, and I'm gonna play on Broadway. It worked

1:20:15

out well so early. But I think the book

1:20:17

is great, and I'm really I love historical books.

1:20:19

I'm right now reading um List. I

1:20:22

just finished I'll Be Gone in the Dark. Michelle

1:20:24

McNamara's book about the Golden State Killer.

1:20:27

Just a really interest. I love dogged people, and

1:20:29

she was how that eventually got solved.

1:20:31

But yeah, well DNA That's why I was

1:20:33

interested. And I'm sort of super interested in DNA

1:20:36

right now. So I just read that book, but

1:20:38

it turned out to be a fascinating book. Um.

1:20:40

I am reading uh, Taffy

1:20:43

Acnear's Fleishman's in Trouble. I had her on the podcast

1:20:45

and I didn't fan me

1:20:47

great novel. She's a great feature writer and she's

1:20:50

trying her hand at novels. Um.

1:20:52

I read a lot of the books I have to do podcasts on. I'm

1:20:54

reading Andrew Marin's's book about Disinformation

1:20:57

because he's going to be on the podcast my

1:21:00

Isaac's book. I'm giving him his book party for the Uber

1:21:02

book. Although I don't want to know more about Uber, I know

1:21:04

a lot about it. You know how that ends. But it's a good book.

1:21:06

It's a good book. Um. Yeah, and so

1:21:08

that's interesting. I read a lot of nonfiction

1:21:11

more than fiction I wish I read. I'm

1:21:14

reading this book that's amazing and I'm going to blank

1:21:16

on her name. Julia, Julia

1:21:19

Gabby Rivera's new book. It's I can't remember

1:21:22

the name of it anyway, you hear, very

1:21:24

new book and it's amazing. It's really wonderful.

1:21:26

Juliana takes on something or that she's

1:21:29

she's really great. She's a beautiful writer.

1:21:32

And I'm trying to read more fiction because I think

1:21:34

everybody wants to read more fiction. It's very stupid

1:21:36

fiction. I just really, you

1:21:38

know, really, I like fiction. I

1:21:41

mean for work, don't you have to do a ton? I

1:21:43

do a ton of reading. I read the Internet all day long, and I

1:21:45

read a lot of stories. Um, but I tend

1:21:47

to I like I like feature writers.

1:21:49

Some of my favorite feature writers Jessica Pressler, Olivia

1:21:52

Nuzzy. They're all women. It's interesting, Taffy Acner,

1:21:55

Um. I like them all. I find them

1:21:57

really wonderful. I love their writing.

1:21:59

I think they're great. Tell Us about

1:22:01

a time you've failed and what you learned from the experience

1:22:04

failed nobody bats at thousand. I

1:22:07

don't look at it as failure. I hate to sound

1:22:09

like a Silicon Valley person, but it sound like Ray

1:22:11

Dally keep going. I don't

1:22:13

look at them as failures. I don't think I'm trying

1:22:16

to, well, what did you learn from the

1:22:18

experience of something that we can just do something

1:22:20

else. I have a very good ability just to like

1:22:22

okay, next, next, like thank you next,

1:22:25

um uh, it's it's I just

1:22:27

don't think of it that way. I don't think. I don't think

1:22:30

I The only failures I can think of

1:22:32

is with my children, like I should have given

1:22:35

also right, I should have done

1:22:38

more of this sometimes like I should

1:22:40

have made decisions faster. It's all related to my children.

1:22:43

Um. And even then, I think I'm a very good

1:22:45

parent. I think I'm a really good parent. So no failures

1:22:48

ever, I know that's not but

1:22:50

I don't like, Well, my dad died when

1:22:52

I was five. That's not a failure, but it's certainly

1:22:55

it for me. And I think I'm very resilient

1:22:57

because of it, even though I would

1:22:59

rather be less resilient in him alive. So

1:23:02

you know, sometimes I lose my temper with my

1:23:04

mom and I wish I had and it's a lot of that kind

1:23:06

of stuff. Um. But big career failer

1:23:09

is, you know, I think I'm really good at career. I'd

1:23:11

have to say I've timed it well. I think I think

1:23:13

I've done a good job on my career for sure. And that's

1:23:15

in a very And also, you know, when I had a stroke,

1:23:17

I thought, wait, what I had

1:23:19

a stroke with five six years ago? Hold on a sex.

1:23:22

So the answer to the question, what's the most important

1:23:24

thing we don't know about you? Oh, the stroke. People

1:23:26

do know about it. I don't know, but I didn't listen.

1:23:28

I do a ton of research into every guest.

1:23:31

I didn'tng on my way to do a make

1:23:33

money for Rupert Murdoch. I did an All Things Digital

1:23:35

D China and Asia D so

1:23:38

from the flight on the flight. Yeah, and it turned

1:23:40

out I had a hole in my heart, which many

1:23:42

people have dated me have said, no, I'm kidding, I'm

1:23:44

pretty good. That is a mark.

1:23:47

Yeah, yeah, I to hold my heart. It's called the PFO.

1:23:49

And I had sticky blood, as I found out through

1:23:52

twenty three and me and I

1:23:54

was Mediterranean, but it's

1:23:56

a kind of it's a condition for the But so,

1:23:59

so, what were the what was the impact

1:24:01

of the stroke? It

1:24:03

reinforced my feeling that life

1:24:05

is short and you better get going. True,

1:24:08

But what was the biological What were

1:24:10

the medical sets? I like the philosophical

1:24:13

Yeah, I mean, I'm with Steve jobs on

1:24:15

that I had a hole in my heart and there's nothing

1:24:17

I can do about it's much So wait, your stroke was

1:24:19

cerebral stroke or cardiac cardiac

1:24:22

I probably be dead. So so you

1:24:24

have a stroke with no limitations

1:24:26

and no, it just was amazing no cognitive function,

1:24:29

physical very short amount of time that

1:24:31

day, and then it was done. I was like talking like

1:24:33

this, and was the hole in your heart discovered

1:24:35

post stroke investigation. So you got

1:24:38

a little lucky with a minor stroke

1:24:40

that discovered this leakage

1:24:42

in one of your valves or what was it was? It's

1:24:44

a hole in your heart's got a PFO. And when you're born,

1:24:46

there's a flap where the emotic fluid goes

1:24:48

back and forth and supposed to close,

1:24:51

it closes up. It flaps over and then

1:24:53

seals. And people doesn't

1:24:55

seal. Human doesn't

1:24:58

leak. It just is there, just a lap.

1:25:00

It's flaps and doesn't on a clock got

1:25:03

through. If there's no clock getting through,

1:25:05

it doesn't matter. So I'm not a doctor,

1:25:07

but I wrote a big column on that actually

1:25:09

in the Times Perry died. Oh

1:25:12

yes, I wrote saying I had a stroke and my brothers

1:25:14

saved my life. My brother is a doctor. And when I was

1:25:16

in Hong Kong and I was well,

1:25:18

I was, I was there and I suddenly couldn't talk.

1:25:20

I had a dysphasia. And I was like and

1:25:23

I was in a hotel room and I was like, well, I can't call

1:25:25

anybody. And I felt, okay, a little headache,

1:25:27

could you. I had a little

1:25:29

bit of tingle in my hand, but yeah, I was writing a story about Yahoo,

1:25:31

and I was like, you know these idiots that, yeah, who once again

1:25:33

are screwing up or something, And it

1:25:36

was my finger tingled. I

1:25:38

tried to eat something. It fell out of my mouth and then I

1:25:40

was like wow. And I was like, huh.

1:25:42

And I thought I had a migraine side migraines for years,

1:25:44

which is a sign of a stroke among women. Realized

1:25:47

that not everybody was migraines gets a stroke, but

1:25:49

it's one of the signals. And

1:25:51

and I've been traveling and I thought a lot and I

1:25:53

was like, oh, I just I'm just so tired, that's

1:25:55

what it is. And so I wrote my brother. I

1:25:57

texted him and it was a different time, and I think it was

1:25:59

in the middle the night in San Francisco and he's

1:26:01

an anesthesiologist and he said, um,

1:26:03

like my father was an anesthesiologist, and

1:26:06

he he texted me. I went up to breakfast

1:26:08

and by the time I got to breakfast, you

1:26:10

know, I'd woken up at four in the morning, Hong Kong time, and then

1:26:12

I went up or whatever, and then went up to breakfast. By the

1:26:14

time it was gone, it was sort of talking like this,

1:26:17

like I had like teeth surgery and

1:26:19

I and I got up to the thing and

1:26:21

and my brother called. He says, get yourself to a hospital

1:26:23

right now. You're having a stroke. And I said, are you crazy,

1:26:26

Like you're such a bad doctor, how ridiculous

1:26:28

that I'm you know, whatever, years old.

1:26:30

I was not old. And so I

1:26:32

think my late parties and or maybe fifty

1:26:35

in and it was for late

1:26:37

parties. And so he said, you were having a stroke.

1:26:40

Get get to a hospital now now. And

1:26:42

I was like okay, And so I did, and

1:26:44

he was right, and I was having a stroke. And it wasn't a

1:26:46

minor stroke. It was a stroke. And so you know all

1:26:48

strokes, I mean there's things and t M I whatever

1:26:51

they're called, um and

1:26:53

uh. And they

1:26:56

medicated me immediately and I didn't have any

1:26:58

repercussions. He flew to Hong Kong immediately.

1:27:01

But he saved my life. He did. That's

1:27:03

amazing, you know. Now he's never let me live

1:27:06

it in to day. I don't that's the trade

1:27:08

off for saving your life. I'm gonna hold this over

1:27:10

you for a great doctor. Um, tell

1:27:12

us what you do for fun? Oh, I don't

1:27:14

have fun? What's that? No? I I have a

1:27:17

lot of friends. I have a ton of friends. Um. I

1:27:19

love spending time with my kids. My kids are amazing.

1:27:21

My two sons are astonishing. And I'm about to have a

1:27:23

baby with my girlfriend who is having

1:27:25

a little girl. Uh. So I was family.

1:27:28

I spent a lot of time with family. I think that's fun for me

1:27:30

doing family stuff. Um. I

1:27:32

don't have a lot of weird hobbies. I

1:27:34

used to roller blade. I don't do that anymore.

1:27:37

Um. You know I did sell cycle that I'm not gonna do.

1:27:39

I'm gonna try it something else. You're out pound

1:27:41

coast of it. I was gonna say, Peloton is

1:27:43

really the best need my thousands of dollars.

1:27:45

It's it's not a little money. It's not like I get a one

1:27:47

Starbucks a week gets a lot of money their thirty

1:27:49

dollars session. I don't have to give them the money, you

1:27:52

know whatever. People can make their own decisions. I

1:27:54

don't care. I don't have to. But they can also leave me the hell

1:27:56

on if I want to do something else. So

1:27:58

um, so I know it's virtue

1:28:00

signing. I don't care. I don't want to spend the money there. I

1:28:03

hate the phrase virtue signaling. Christ really

1:28:05

I can add hominum attack. It's not about

1:28:08

the argument who I am. And people have pushed

1:28:10

back about that, and you go back to the person who created

1:28:12

the phrase and he describes it as

1:28:14

a personal attack against people whose ideas when

1:28:16

I just I just want to do it, like leave me, but you

1:28:18

know, mind your own business and I won't be money who I spend

1:28:20

my money, my money. I work. I work

1:28:23

so hard and I could okay,

1:28:25

no, I mean or people who are politically

1:28:28

I just want to spend the money. When I spend my most things

1:28:30

you can't figure ever, And then they're like, well this

1:28:33

is this and like you can't figure everything, but that's a

1:28:35

clear one. That's a clear one, Like

1:28:37

I get that has signaled. You

1:28:39

know, if I eat like a Hersheibar this

1:28:41

money, I can't figure all that, of course, but

1:28:43

in this case, this guy made a prominent gesture,

1:28:46

and I'm going to make a prominent gesture back. So

1:28:48

that's you know, and that's why there's no lot

1:28:51

of logic to it's care Swisher logic. And by the way,

1:28:53

carrocial logic applies to cars. Can I

1:28:55

tell you there is logic to it when someone

1:28:57

is going to be a very visible

1:29:00

patron of someone whose beliefs

1:29:03

not just disagree with yours, but

1:29:05

are actively oppressing

1:29:08

your UM

1:29:10

identification care. I just don't like it. I don't

1:29:12

like I don't want to give money. That's all. That's it's It's not even

1:29:14

that complicated. By the way, I feel terrible for mentally well,

1:29:16

and it's Soul Cycle. I'd love to have on the podcast to talk

1:29:18

about it. I think, I think the people of Soul

1:29:21

Cycle, I'm so sorry that they have to go through this.

1:29:23

But you know what, I'll spinning out to a separate entity.

1:29:25

I was like, I want to call the rain Jobs and say, Lorraine,

1:29:27

who does love Soul Cycle?

1:29:30

But then you're behavi ares.

1:29:32

I can do something about it, you know, but

1:29:35

then you reward. You're going to reward

1:29:38

for fun. I hang out with friends. That's it.

1:29:41

UM tell us what you're most optimistic

1:29:43

and pessimistic about your chosen

1:29:45

field of technology and journalism. I

1:29:48

am optimistic because there's so much exciting stuff

1:29:50

going on and so much innovation happening in journalism.

1:29:52

And I think that even though people sort of

1:29:54

declared the end, when people were declaring the end of the world

1:29:57

and stuff, I remember Barry deal or saying, you

1:29:59

know, it's just it's never that, it's never. You

1:30:02

can't whine and give up on things

1:30:05

like it's been a losing bed

1:30:06

for five yeah, you know. And journalists tend to

1:30:08

like not check like sometimes, like I was

1:30:10

talking to someone, They're like, Oh, this is what's happening, and this is what's happening.

1:30:13

I'm like, did you check if this is what's happening? Because

1:30:15

you're just making that up. And so I think you have to

1:30:17

really feel, you know, anyone

1:30:19

who has children has to believe in the future,

1:30:21

anyone, you know. And I have a lot of children,

1:30:24

so I believe in the future. I don't want to have children

1:30:26

if I didn't. So what are you pessimistic about?

1:30:29

Um? The autocracy?

1:30:31

On one hand, I feel like autocrats always end

1:30:33

up dead in the dantage drainage ditch. I studied

1:30:35

the Holocaust quite heavily and propaganda

1:30:38

and stuff in the Haga, so it

1:30:40

can get really bad. And when's the point

1:30:42

where it stays bad and it hasn't so far in

1:30:44

our history. There's always someone who looks at Joe

1:30:46

slamcars dand says, have you no

1:30:48

shame? And it ends like it doesn't end totally,

1:30:51

but it stops. The fever stops. You have someone

1:30:53

at the Salem which right, the Salem

1:30:55

witch trials, they were terrible. They ended

1:30:57

the You know that I was around

1:31:00

when I was a formative years, AIDS

1:31:02

was terrible. During the Reagan administration. The stuff

1:31:04

the Reagan administration was doing was appalling. James

1:31:06

Watt said trees caused cancer. What everybody's

1:31:08

seeing trees caused pollution? Remember

1:31:11

him carbon

1:31:14

die right? Whatever? James Watt where.

1:31:17

I'm sure he's not living anymore, but he It

1:31:19

was just there's there's there's always these

1:31:21

people that are retrogade, and I use

1:31:24

I'll end on this one of my favorite. Um,

1:31:26

I see the thing. You know what I do for fun? I go to the theater.

1:31:28

I love I'm seeing Mulan Roustena and stuff like that.

1:31:31

Have I gotta say, have you seen to Of

1:31:34

course I did. I've seen every one of them. Talk

1:31:37

about powerful. I love theater. Make

1:31:39

It's transformative for me as a person. I've always

1:31:41

since I was a kid. My mom brought us. It's a real gift. My

1:31:43

mom gave us to love of theater. And

1:31:45

so I was Angels

1:31:48

in America is one of my favorite ones, and I've seen

1:31:50

it at least a dozen times. Tony

1:31:52

Kushner's two parts and the end of the

1:31:55

play, Um, it's a wonderful play. It's such

1:31:57

a beautifully written play in such a time. It's harder

1:31:59

than this time to remember for it. But it was terrible

1:32:01

during the AIDS. Christ is terrible, terrible, terrible

1:32:03

people dying, these wonderful people dying like

1:32:05

way before their time. And

1:32:08

um, and the last line of the

1:32:10

of the thing, they're standing at the fountain in Central

1:32:13

Park, the

1:32:15

Bethesda Fountain, and uh,

1:32:18

she said, he's the line he gives is

1:32:20

the world always spins forward, and this is

1:32:22

our time. We will not be silent

1:32:24

anymore. And I remember being a gay person

1:32:26

then just coming out, and you people don't remember when it

1:32:28

was hard to be gay, and it still is in many parts

1:32:30

of the world, but it's easy. I have kids better

1:32:32

in the United States, so it's like you can't believe

1:32:34

it, you can't believe it. And so I remember

1:32:37

that really impacting me. The world

1:32:39

always spins forward. And that's why I thinking everyone's

1:32:41

like Trump's gonna reverything. I'm like, is he

1:32:44

he can't, Well, he'll do damage for four

1:32:46

years and hopefully then he

1:32:48

can't, and like, and we'll fix it. We

1:32:50

can fix it and we can pick it up. And I think that's where

1:32:52

I get up. The same thing with journalism, the same thing with

1:32:54

anything, is that people

1:32:57

they always end up. These people that want

1:33:00

to push us back to old times, which brings

1:33:02

people down. There are people that stand up

1:33:04

and say enough is enough, no more. When is that

1:33:06

going to happen? It will all right. I

1:33:08

hope you're right. Last two questions and

1:33:11

a millennial or college grad comes to you and says,

1:33:13

I'm interested in the career in journalism. What

1:33:15

sort of advice would you give us? Start

1:33:18

writing? Just start looking around and start

1:33:20

writing, start reporting, Start writing. So

1:33:22

much amazing journalist is being done right now and

1:33:24

again because these times are harder, same

1:33:27

thing happened during the last time we had something like

1:33:29

this. So just get

1:33:31

out your pen, whatever, whatever,

1:33:35

get out whatever you can and start telling stories.

1:33:37

And I think telling stories is the greatest

1:33:41

talent that humans have, is to tell stories. Quite

1:33:44

interesting. And our final questions, what

1:33:46

do you questions, Barry, I

1:33:48

come prepared. What what

1:33:50

do you know about the world anymore

1:33:55

special about That's true. That's a fair po serial

1:33:57

killer, right, you know, that's what I used

1:33:59

to do before with this. My son's name is Louie.

1:34:01

There's nobody named old Jewish Louis.

1:34:04

Yeah, well, okay, there you go. So you named

1:34:06

your kid after Louis's

1:34:08

name, that is a digression. I did not. His

1:34:11

name is Lewis. I did not name it

1:34:13

after one of my favorite seafood places

1:34:15

is Louise in Port Washington. I

1:34:17

grew up in um Oh,

1:34:20

so I'm in Locust Valley and I went

1:34:22

to Portlage. Oh. Portlage

1:34:24

is literally vilege thirty seconds

1:34:27

from my I live in and

1:34:30

can I tell you when whenever people

1:34:32

visit me, they're like, I

1:34:34

didn't know Long Island was like this. I'm like, well,

1:34:36

you made a you made a left and you went to

1:34:38

Connecticut. This is this is

1:34:40

the US. So my sister's kids want to say that

1:34:43

I don't know. You grew up in very

1:34:46

interesting. What was I saying? Our final question,

1:34:49

what do you know about the world of technology today

1:34:51

that you wish you knew. However,

1:34:53

many years, thirty years ago, when you first started,

1:34:56

I know about it today. I wish I knew.

1:34:59

Gosh, I forget more about technology than most

1:35:01

people know. So um in an hour. Mm

1:35:04

hmmm, I don't. I

1:35:07

think I didn't quite on the damage.

1:35:10

I think I wish I had understood the damage

1:35:12

earlier so I could start writing about it and stopping

1:35:14

it. Privacy, social networks, damage,

1:35:17

all of it, the idea that these the impact

1:35:19

on humanity, and how you know. I studied

1:35:22

propaganda at Georgetown. That was my area

1:35:24

of expertise in the Foreign service schools the US.

1:35:26

As a propaganda I should have understood

1:35:28

having studied the Nazis, and especially

1:35:31

the Nazis, how they used propaganda to um

1:35:34

to to to in the roll

1:35:36

up to killing so many people. The

1:35:39

way they used it, it was not a one day

1:35:41

thing. You can't just sloater millions. You gotta prep

1:35:43

you gotta prep it, and you gotta get the population.

1:35:45

Comparing it to the Holocaust, but there's damage

1:35:48

being done that is very It's a similar

1:35:50

thing is how we make people the other and

1:35:52

I think the internet, and I

1:35:55

think the Internet is very effective at thought. It is

1:35:57

and I thought it was gonna be Star Trek. I

1:35:59

thought it was gonna be We're all gonna have communicators and love each

1:36:01

other, and we're all going to be on a ship. But it's both. You

1:36:03

have the good and the bad. That that's right. So

1:36:05

the question is are you a Star Trek person or a Star

1:36:07

Wars person? Star Wars

1:36:09

it's very dark. It's dark, and Star Trek

1:36:12

is very hopeful. I was a Star Trek person far

1:36:14

far too long. That's very

1:36:16

interesting, fascinating stuff. Thank

1:36:18

you so much with

1:36:21

your time. We have been speaking with Kara

1:36:23

Swisher. She is the founder

1:36:25

of Recode. I mentioned you want a Lobe award

1:36:27

right, and she writes a weekly opinion

1:36:29

column now for the New York Times. If

1:36:32

you enjoy this conversation, well look

1:36:34

up an Inch, Down an Inch on all

1:36:36

of our previous two and fifty

1:36:38

plus conversations and

1:36:41

I'm sure you'll find something that you'll enjoy. Uh.

1:36:43

We love your comments, feedback and suggestions

1:36:46

right to us at m IB podcast

1:36:48

at Bloomberg dot net, Go to Apple iTunes

1:36:51

and give us a lovely review. Be

1:36:53

sure to check out my weekly column. You

1:36:55

could see that at Bloomberg dot com.

1:36:58

I would be remiss if I did not thank the crack

1:37:00

staff that helps us put together the

1:37:02

easiest podcast to record UH

1:37:05

in podcast Land. Charlie Volmer is my audio

1:37:07

engineer this week. Attica val

1:37:10

Bron is our project manager. Michael

1:37:12

Boyle is my producer. Michael bat

1:37:14

Nick is my head of research. I'm

1:37:17

Barry Retults. You've been listening to Masters

1:37:19

in Business on Bloomberg Radio