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Hey there, it's Chris Gautier, producer on Masters

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Scale. And if you have a minute while

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if you'd share a five star rating and

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review for the podcast. This really

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helps new listeners discover the show. In

0:55

San Francisco today, President Biden convened

0:57

a meeting of artificial intelligence experts

1:00

to weigh its risks. The

1:02

White House releasing details of a new

1:04

executive order that would direct

1:06

federal agencies to regulate as well

1:08

as shape the world. This artificial

1:10

intelligence expands the boundary of human

1:13

possibility and tests

1:15

the bounds of human understanding. This

1:18

landmark executive order is a testament to

1:21

what we stand for, safety, security,

1:24

trust, openness. This

1:27

is likely to be the most aggressive

1:29

piece of American regulation over the fast.

1:31

The White House is calling this the strongest

1:33

action that any government has taken on artificial

1:35

intelligence, safety and security. Hi

1:42

everyone, it's Bob Safian, former editor of

1:44

Fast Company, founder of the Flux Group

1:47

and host of Rapid Response. My

1:49

colleague Reed Hoffman met with President Joe

1:52

Biden in San Francisco several weeks back

1:54

with the topic of AI high

1:57

on the agenda in this

1:59

very special episode. episode, Reed gives

2:01

us an exclusive window into

2:03

this closed door meeting. Biden's

2:06

the first American president who's had

2:08

to face the full challenge of

2:10

AI from regulation to its emerging

2:12

impact on the economy, jobs, social

2:15

discourse, and of course its potential

2:17

for misuse by bad actors. Reed

2:20

talks with me about all this and more.

2:23

It's good stuff. So let's get to

2:25

it. All

2:36

right, great. Well, Reed, let's dive in.

2:39

Let's dive in. You

2:42

had an opportunity recently in San Francisco

2:44

to meet with President Biden. You talked

2:46

about AI, among other things. You haven't

2:49

spoken about that elsewhere. So

2:51

what can you tell us about it? You

2:54

know, I think people would be

2:56

surprised because they think, oh, Biden,

2:58

wonderful president, gentleman of an older

3:00

generation, older than both of us.

3:03

So I think a little bit of the surprise

3:05

is that he's actually completely with it. He was

3:07

like, I see a lot of discussion happening here.

3:10

There's obviously a lot of unknowns. It's obviously

3:12

moving fast. And this is one of the

3:14

key things that I think is really, really

3:17

excellent about the man and about the man

3:19

as president was he

3:21

doesn't show up going, well, I read something and I know

3:23

what it is and let me tell you what it is.

3:25

It's the, look, I recognize a lot of stuff happening here

3:28

and I'm not expert. So how

3:30

do I approach it? What do you tell me? Here

3:33

are my questions. Are there more important questions?

3:35

Here are the people that I have working on this. Are they working

3:37

on the right things? Are they talking to the right people? So

3:40

he brings an open mind and asking

3:43

questions to it. And

3:45

his goals are Most

3:47

fundamentally being kind of a man of the

3:49

people. He's not like, okay, look, great to

3:52

hear that the bungee different opportunities for American

3:54

industry and great to hear that startup people

3:56

are generally actually thinking about these ethical questions,

3:58

you know, that we're. Having discourses like the

4:01

one we're doing today and that's really important.

4:03

But like, what does it mean for the

4:05

bulk of Americans? Like what's gonna go on,

4:07

how to their lives become better with as

4:09

what does it mean for their jobs? What

4:11

does it mean for the way they care

4:13

for the families? What does it mean for

4:15

education and that kind of thing was actually

4:17

his top of mine questions is obviously a

4:19

whole set of other questions come into, but

4:21

that was the ones he most wanted to

4:23

go. I don't want to leave the room

4:25

without getting a sensitive. I

4:27

mean you know we have every when answering the question

4:30

about what is the future very I look like to

4:32

them and and serious. Did. You get

4:34

a sense from him whether he's an Ai

4:36

Optimists to earn a i pessimists say you

4:38

know it's there, it's you know the regulatory

4:41

him as part gonna get foot do get

4:43

a feel for that. Well

4:45

I think see as an optimist

4:47

because is an optimist but the

4:49

american people he recognizes it's be

4:52

bad people doing bad things is

4:54

not blind. But. He wants

4:56

to say we can be better, We can

4:58

be the people we aspire to be and

5:00

we can build interesting think so. He is

5:03

inherently optimistic in a view of it is

5:05

possible to shape this positively and I think

5:07

isn't that much because he goes. I know,

5:09

but the technologies that would. I'm a technological

5:12

actress and let me tell you why should

5:14

be optimistic that know that's not What is

5:16

a zoo like Diesel been one of the

5:19

noses into? There's Nobody Goes Look Ice. I

5:21

believe in people caring, what the future, collaborating

5:23

together, regular habit and like, what should I

5:25

do? To be helpful to that

5:27

which can include the kids would try

5:30

to stop the things that are bad.

5:32

And here's the things we do to

5:34

support a goodbye Seats More than a

5:36

I optimist, but not because he goes

5:38

I'm an expert in psychology, but more

5:40

because she's a believer in human beings

5:42

being able to do good things. Are

5:45

so me? Take it to the other

5:47

side a little bit. Did you get

5:50

a sense for their biden? wants to

5:52

lead you to wants to be ahead

5:54

of the curve? the in sort of

5:56

setting parameters from a regulatory and government

5:58

framework, or whether. He's sort of

6:01

okay if some of that is done.

6:03

You. Know in other places and see kind of

6:06

fills in around it. I. Think

6:08

your approach has been unusually wise because

6:10

what they first that is, bring a

6:12

whole bunch of companies and innovators into

6:14

the White House and say we're going

6:16

push you want to set of on

6:18

Turks Moments need to be shown irresponsible.

6:20

You need to be making commitments that

6:22

aren't just like slogans, but also like

6:24

things that you're actually navigating risks and

6:26

you're investing in it and you're doing

6:28

it the way of telling, Getting a

6:30

sense of which things are they saying?

6:33

We. See this an issue and we could

6:35

do this and will even make volunteers commitments.

6:37

Then we take those volunteer commitments and

6:39

we start talking to. The. World

6:41

at large university people and say

6:44

okay, well what are we missing?

6:46

What is not yet They're. Ok,

6:49

let's hear that let's hire some people

6:51

specifically about doing it so let's have

6:53

a deputy. The staff was focused on

6:55

this that take the best person that

6:58

we currently have working within the broader

7:00

white house, make them work for the

7:02

deputy to the staff. Let's get the

7:04

various multiple agencies coordinating together and then

7:06

let's get them all engaged in this

7:08

which is one of these offers. You

7:11

end up with a longest ever executive

7:13

order I think you're hundred ten pages

7:15

and let's make sure that we are

7:17

all working on this really important thing

7:19

and we're bringing met together and then

7:22

in what we're releasing we're not going

7:24

and here the final thing as like

7:26

look let's put out some things that

7:28

are amplifications of the voluntary minutes for

7:30

an industry godlike. Let's make sure that

7:33

you're in dialogue with us and let's

7:35

make sure that a number of different

7:37

agencies are paying attention to it. And

7:39

so all of this I think was

7:41

a masterclass In effective Like how do

7:44

we take something dynamic which we don't

7:46

know so fully understand either is industry

7:48

or governments. Understand the future could be

7:50

so much better than the present and that we

7:52

need to get there like even on a safety

7:54

thing the tools for didn't the safety or more

7:56

and more the beach. Now that being said, I.

7:59

Think they want could be

8:01

kind of setting a baseline

8:03

norm. As. Regulatory leaders like

8:05

to your specific questions and what's more

8:08

as I think they're willing to learn

8:10

from other people. So part of the

8:12

Iau they were talking the Uk Uk

8:14

had done a Uk A I say

8:16

to suit the said we should up

8:18

on to the to should be coordinating

8:20

disease seven I think is going to

8:22

be very centered on on a I

8:25

next year and so all of that

8:27

I think is a very good thing

8:29

to be coordinating and I think she

8:31

doesn't want to go. Okay let's find

8:33

other places will drag. Us into a signal

8:35

or we want us. we want to stab us a

8:37

good norm which is both the right amount. Or

8:40

too little, too much rights and the

8:42

thing that gets us into the future.

8:45

That's what I think they are doing

8:47

in a very good way and are

8:49

being leaders. But. Not leaders

8:51

have like no one else needs to do anything.

8:54

We're. Participatory leaders, you know listening to you

8:56

and I'm sure everyone else let's be here

8:59

is say to themselves. Well I understand why

9:01

the President wanted to talk to this guy.

9:03

You know I don't really understand miss all

9:05

of this stuff, but this is someone

9:07

who understands a lot of it's for you

9:10

going into talk to him. With.

9:12

Their goal that you have out of

9:14

it like is there something that you

9:16

took away. That. Was valuable to

9:18

you from that experience. While

9:21

I think there are a number of things

9:23

I mean is obviously stuff that he's got

9:25

decades of experience that I have. No.

9:28

Experience on and I never meet with

9:30

people without having things that I would

9:32

ask questions of them as is Bob

9:35

you know for was birds that are

9:37

gonna bring me I was at least

9:39

our question I would say. The thing

9:41

that I. Probably. Most

9:43

go away from in that was this

9:45

notion of. What's. The

9:48

way that you should

9:50

set. a set of

9:52

expectations and kind of a political compass around the

9:54

everyday person like what's the concern of someone as

9:56

a look i'm i'm in the tech industry i'm

9:59

not doing this I'm trying to

10:01

navigate the experience of my life, things like gas prices

10:03

and other kinds of things. And I'm trying to navigate

10:05

that, because that's one of the things that I think

10:08

Biden is like, okay, what is that

10:10

person's experience of their life, of their

10:12

work, of their family? And

10:14

how can we be making that better year by

10:16

year? And how do we navigate

10:19

crises like the pandemic, which he helped get us out

10:21

of and everything else, in terms of

10:23

making that happen? And so, like, okay, what

10:25

does AI contribute to that? Not, hey,

10:28

look, you got the scaling model, and here's how you know

10:30

what the future is like. Okay, great. You should

10:32

be doing that. That's what expertise should be doing. How

10:34

does that translate to people who

10:36

are, like, living their lives and doing this? They

10:39

care, but they've got their lives to do.

10:41

And I think that kind

10:44

of being grounded

10:47

in how to think about

10:49

it within a political leadership circumstance, and not get

10:51

flustered by the fact that part of when it

10:54

happens, when you're president, is, for example, one of

10:56

the things I find entertaining is these people are

10:58

like, Biden is a socialist. And you know, like,

11:00

he's been around for 50 years. He's never been

11:03

a socialist, ever. Right? And

11:05

so, just going, look, I get it. That's

11:07

the nature of it. I'm not going to

11:09

lose focus on what I care about is

11:12

what happens to the most

11:15

of American people, the middle class and all that. And

11:17

that's the most important thing to think about first, and how

11:19

to talk about it, and how to think about it, how to

11:22

engage. And I thought that was very helpful. Well,

11:25

what's heartening hearing all of that too is,

11:27

yeah, you may be excited about this stuff,

11:29

you folks, in Silicon Valley, but like, how's

11:32

it going to change the way my kid gets taught at school? Yes.

11:35

You know, those are the things that people worry about.

11:37

Yes, exactly. And by the way, with change, it'll always

11:39

have some disruption. There'll always be

11:41

some uncertainty on it. It'll be like, well, what

11:43

should be the policy? Could I write essays with

11:45

it? Does it show your work? Is

11:47

the teacher going to respond positively or negatively? I

11:50

mean, the things that we can accomplish in

11:53

elevating humanity are right here right now. Let's

11:55

really make sure we get to them. And I

11:57

think that's part of the joy of it.

12:00

change things, but that's a change

12:02

that on the other side will be better. Because

12:04

by the way, you go to your average

12:06

American and say, this one's better for your kids, this one's better

12:08

for your family. It'll just be

12:10

some transition and getting there. And

12:13

then people tend to be the, Hey, I'm okay.

12:15

I'm game. I

12:26

want to thank Reed for sharing his

12:28

exclusive experience with the president. Undoubtedly

12:31

there are going to be things happening with AI in

12:33

2024 that no one can

12:35

predict, but it's reassuring

12:37

to know that there are concerted

12:39

efforts at the highest levels for

12:42

an adaptive, realistic and people

12:45

centered approach to oversight. I'm

12:48

Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. Masters

12:53

of scale is a weight. What original are

12:56

executive producer is Chris McLeod. Our

12:59

producers are Chris. Adam

13:01

skews, Alex Morris, Kaka

13:03

Lagerzky and Masha Makutunina.

13:06

Our editor at large is Bob Safian. Our

13:10

music director is Ryan holiday, original

13:13

music and sound design by Eduardo

13:15

Rivera, Ryan holiday, Hayes holiday and

13:17

Nate Casela. Audio

13:19

editing by Keith J. Nelson, Steven

13:21

Davies, Steven Wells, and Andrew Knott.

13:24

Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli

13:26

and Ryan Pugh. Our

13:29

CEO and chairman of the board is Jeff Berman. Masters

13:32

of scale was created by June Cohen

13:34

and Darren Trist. Special

13:37

thanks to Jodine Dorsay,

13:39

Alfonso Bravo, Kim Cronin,

13:41

Erica Flynn, Sarah Tarter,

13:43

Katie Blasey, Meryl Carrecker,

13:45

Xunimé Essequena, Colin Howard,

13:48

Brendan Klein, Semyo Puta, Kelsey

13:50

Cezon, Louisa Valen, Nikki

13:53

Williams, and Justin Winslow. Visit

13:55

masters of scale.com to find the transcript

13:58

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