0:01

This podcast is a dramatization of

0:03

fictionalized events that contains culturally

0:06

insensitive language and violence. Bring

0:17

order, creator, I've

0:44

never done this before. So where do you

0:46

want to start? Um, let's

0:49

just start with the basics. I guess let's start

0:51

with your name, title, and why

0:53

you're relevant to the story. Okay, sure.

0:56

My name is Dr Sam Azotti. I'm the head

0:58

of internal medicine at St. Joseph's Hospital.

1:01

And when Gerald Hayes was in his standoff

1:03

with the l a p D. I was called in to

1:05

administer care for his hostage. Sergeant

1:08

Dan Police And when you got the call, did

1:10

you have any second thoughts or reservations

1:12

about entering the building that night? Sure?

1:15

But did I consider not going

1:17

in? No? Never. People

1:19

really don't know how much danger you were

1:21

in that night. And when comparing

1:24

the time stamp on the police department's internal

1:26

comms with the bar surveillance footage,

1:28

it's pretty clear that you were the only

1:30

person standing in the window at that time that

1:32

they were considering a snipe attempt. I

1:35

mean, it was It's pretty scary if

1:37

you stop to think about it. But I

1:40

guess I caught a break. And what about

1:42

Gerald? He scare you. No,

1:45

why not? I mean to be honest,

1:47

I pitied the guy, and obviously

1:50

I don't meet and you know, I'm

1:52

not saying what he did was right, far

1:54

from it. But I

1:57

saw what they did to his son. So I

2:00

want to play back for you the conversation

2:02

you were having with Gerald after you finished stabilizing

2:05

Sergeant Place and right before

2:07

you left the building, because you say something really

2:10

interesting that I want to try to understand more.

2:13

Mr Hayes. Sorry, I wasn't given

2:15

a chance to get in here sooner. Maybe

2:18

if I had, things could have worked out differently for your

2:20

boy. I'm sorry.

2:24

Yeah, I'm sorry too cool

2:33

he's coming out, coming

2:35

out. I've

2:39

thought a lot about this. How could it have worked

2:41

out differently for Niles? Well,

2:43

he needed urgent care and what he got

2:46

was the exact opposite of that. Ye.

2:48

Can you elaborate on that, sure,

2:51

But I I think it's

2:53

important that I prefaced this by saying I

2:55

have the add advantage point of having

2:57

read niles is autopsy report. Obviously,

3:00

Okay, So basically

3:03

he needed a breathing tube on site,

3:05

and he should have been placed on a ventilator as quickly

3:07

as possible and my hospital was

3:10

less than five minutes away. The

3:12

kid basically

3:14

suffocated to death. So

3:16

in your expert opinion, let's

3:19

say Gerald surrendered immediately in the medics were

3:21

able to get Niles to the hospital. That

3:23

I'm almost certain that Nile survives, you

3:26

know, but probably paralyzed

3:28

for the rest of his life. But I'm

3:30

almost certain he survived.

3:33

So by that logic, based on your

3:35

medical opinion, it seems undeniable

3:37

that Gerald is at least some part responsible for niles

3:40

death, right, Yeah, I mean, well,

3:42

if if you look, if you're looking to assign

3:45

fault, I don't see

3:47

how Gerald doesn't share a portion

3:49

of the blade. It seems like his behavior

3:52

was negligent at best. But again,

3:55

that's that's just my medical opinion.

3:57

It's not a legal opinion, right, I don't

3:59

know. Oh you know, I'm just a

4:01

doctor, right, I'm not a lawyer. I

4:04

just have one more thing. When you said

4:06

that you wish things could have turned out differently,

4:09

Gerald says, I'm sorry

4:11

too. Did

4:14

you get the impression that he was

4:16

saying he was sorry, like he was sorry about

4:19

the whole situation, Sorry

4:21

that the police dragged their feet and getting

4:23

a medic or a doctor in there, or do you think

4:25

that he was sorry for his actions, that

4:27

that he didn't actually stand down. Well,

4:32

yeah, I just I just took it as sorry

4:34

about the whole situation. You

4:36

know, who knows what was really going through his mind

4:38

at the time, especially you know, considering

4:41

the state that he was in. You know,

4:43

I mean, honestly, your guess is as good as mine. You

4:46

know this much. I know Niles

4:50

needed immediate medical attention. He

4:52

didn't get it, and it

4:54

proved to be fatal. Doctor

4:56

Zatti's po V weighed heavily on me and

5:00

heart because he's a medical

5:02

professional, but also because he's

5:04

probably the most impartial person that

5:06

I've had the opportunity to interview in this process,

5:09

and it's forcing me to face something about this

5:11

investigation that I've been sort of

5:13

doing this weird dance with previously.

5:16

You heard what happened when I pressed Jas about Gerald's

5:19

potential culpability in the way things went

5:21

down that day. Get this thing off

5:23

me, I ain doing this bullshit. I'd

5:26

be lying if I said that exchange didn't affect

5:28

me, because the truth is, I

5:31

know I've been pulling my punches with Jace ever since

5:34

for lots of reasons, but if I'm being

5:36

totally honest with myself, the main reason

5:39

is fear. Fear that I might

5:41

be misconstrued as a

5:43

journalistic Karen of sorts for

5:46

not being woken enough to understand

5:48

and empathize with the millions of people who voted

5:50

Sergeant Place guilty, and to

5:52

an extent, I guess you can

5:54

say I feared being canceled or thought

5:56

of as someone who just doesn't get it.

5:59

If you remember back to episode one,

6:02

I mentioned how my fixation with the comment

6:04

posted by at Wilkinsassi is what started

6:06

me on this journey in the first place, where

6:09

she said at Gerald O g is a

6:11

hero for taking matters into his own

6:13

hands. But Dr Zotti's

6:15

assessment not only flies in the face of

6:17

that, it basically implicates Gerald.

6:20

And of course I'm not saying that this in any way

6:22

absolves Sergeant Place an Officer Web of their

6:25

actions, but it does highlight

6:27

for me how completely unsettled I am with

6:29

how I should view everything that Gerald

6:31

did that day, and so far, the

6:34

best I can come up with is that

6:36

all of these men, Gerald, Sergeant

6:38

Place, and Officer Web are

6:41

in varying degrees accomplices

6:43

accomplices in the death of Niles

6:46

Hayes. But at the end of the day,

6:49

only one person bore the duties of a father.

6:52

Only Gerald had an obligation to Niles

6:54

that transcends time and space. And

6:57

as admirable and selfless

7:00

and courageous as it was for him to

7:02

dive into the fray and protect his son when

7:04

the cops were beating on him, well

7:07

shouldn't that same instinct have been

7:09

enough to make him stand down to save his son

7:11

as well? Bottom line,

7:14

after talking to doctor Assotti, it's just hard

7:16

to argue the fact that Gerald fucked

7:19

up, and it's reprehensible.

7:22

So going forward, if I'm

7:24

not drilling down on this point with Jason

7:26

others, I'm just not doing my job,

7:28

which means, whether I like it or

7:31

not, I have some difficult

7:33

conversations ahead of me. And

7:35

if I get canceled in the process, so

7:38

be it. Doctor

7:40

Azadi came into the budge is as cool,

7:42

calm and collected as you want to be. So

7:45

Jason, look, I just want to double

7:47

back on something that came up in my conversation with

7:49

the doctor about nats is passing, and I

7:51

have to ask you something point blank, who

7:54

in your estimation, is responsible for his

7:56

death, Sergeant

7:58

place in office as well? Who else? Yes?

8:01

But have you given any more thought to the role

8:03

Gerald might have played in this passage? The

8:06

autopsy report indicates that if Niles

8:09

received timely and

8:11

I don't exactly call being paralyzed from the

8:13

neck down. Okay, But is there

8:15

any part of you that thinks that Gerald made a mistake

8:18

in not trying to get Nile's medical attention?

8:20

What are you talking about? We

8:22

did try to get help. I was there, I made

8:24

the calling out, you

8:27

heard the takes. You're right, I have. But

8:29

one could argue that if Gerald had surrendered

8:31

instead of digging his heels and Niles would have

8:33

been taken to the hospital. One could also argue,

8:36

Kate, that if those racists as cops didn't

8:38

beat Niles to death, he would not have died.

8:41

And my argument is better. Okay,

8:46

So you asked me a question if I think Gerald

8:48

fucked up? The answer is no. Get

8:50

to the next question. Okay. So Gerald never expressed

8:53

any regrets to you about the way things went down? And

8:55

what about you? What about me? What regret

8:57

anything? So you're blaming me? Now? No,

9:00

Jase, But it's It's only

9:02

natural to replay events that don't go the

9:04

way that we want them to go and wish for some different

9:06

outcomes. So

9:10

I never, I

9:14

never should have let now was drive my car's

9:18

no no, no no, no hold

9:21

up by saying had nothing to

9:23

do with now it's getting killed, didn't it? Though? You

9:26

were just playing that should have would have could have gained with me

9:28

about Gerald surrendering earlier. Well

9:31

what if now It's took Gerald's hooped

9:33

instead of my car when he went to pick up them tickets.

9:35

Now I'll never get stopped by the police, he doesn't

9:38

get pulled over, he don't die.

9:46

What I regret, Kate, It's

9:49

the reason I had. Now I was taking my

9:51

car, which was what ego.

9:55

I didn't want him pulling up to a Beverly Hills

9:57

office driving Gerald's busted

9:59

at as always gonna be bild because I thought it

10:02

would make me look bad. But

10:06

how could you have imagined that Niles

10:08

would end up? That's what I've been That's

10:13

why I'm trying to get

10:15

you to get Every

10:20

black man in America is already imagine

10:23

a thousand ways how this ship could go wrong.

10:26

And really, you

10:28

don't even need a fucking imagination because

10:30

you keep seeing this ship over and over

10:35

over. Mhm.

10:42

What haunts me? What

10:46

haunts me to this day? It

10:48

said, Look I saw in Gerald's face when

10:52

I gave his boy my cockies. They

10:58

know he

11:01

knew it was a bad idea, but he

11:04

didn't stop it because he

11:07

didn't want to disappoint his son. For

11:10

the second time, Jay stopped our interview short,

11:13

but this time he came back, all

11:20

right, what else you want to know? So,

11:23

um, setting aside right

11:25

and wrong, guilt and innocence, who's

11:28

to blame and not to blame? I

11:30

mean, is there any part of Gerald's thinking

11:32

that day that you just flat out disagreed

11:34

with? And you need to be most specific,

11:37

okay, like you just didn't

11:39

understand where he was coming from.

11:42

Look, okay, so I'll say

11:44

this. I think the one place

11:47

well Gerald was off base and

11:50

like almost delusional, was him

11:52

holding onto this idea that he would

11:54

be able to finish the trial what

11:56

without the police doing everything they

11:59

could to stop them, even if that meant

12:01

risking Sergeant places life in the process.

12:05

Gerald had bagged them into such a tight spot

12:07

that they forced to protect something bigger than

12:09

just one cop. Just like the

12:12

system,

12:14

and for most of the evening G just could

12:17

not see that, but the signs was

12:19

everywhere. Welcome back to the show. I

12:21

want to pick up the conversation with something we

12:23

were discussing during the break, Go ahead

12:25

to talk about them, Thank you, Ryan. It occurred

12:27

to me that beyond the criminality of vigilante

12:30

justice, which again I do not endorse,

12:33

I heard just pointing out that if

12:35

Gerald Hayes is able to carry out a trial

12:37

and execute a judgment through social media,

12:40

this will be has disrupted to our legal system

12:42

as Master was to the music industry at the turn

12:44

of the Center, Abster, if

12:46

I may, yes, Pa, And to me, the most

12:48

important thing is that law enforcement do the

12:50

right thing right now, and to

12:53

me that means the police force needs to take

12:55

control of the situation on and I

12:57

just don't see how to let them get as far as thinking

12:59

that they would be justified in executing

13:01

a police officer and publishing that live

13:04

let a already praise it enough to act as if

13:06

they are as powerful as courts. That's just uncomfortable.

13:09

It's wait, wait, wait,

13:11

let me, let me let me get to the point there. So what do you say

13:14

they have to neutralize the threatened immediately.

13:16

Somebody on the ground has to be working on that.

13:19

That was the moment I thought it might

13:21

finally set in for Gerald, But

13:24

when I looked over at him, he still had a vibe

13:26

like it didn't seem to face him. And what exactly

13:29

was it that you expected it? That we was in

13:31

deep ship and it probably would have

13:33

flown right over his head again, But Martin,

13:35

Martin, of all people,

13:38

may have been the one to finally get through the g Listen

13:40

to this exchange from the surveillance cameras

13:43

as Martin confronts Gerald, you

13:45

see what you did? Gerald,

13:49

I am fucking talking to you.

13:53

Don't start with me again, Martin, how

13:56

about you fucking stop? All

13:58

right? Did you have basically signed our

14:01

death? Want the funk are you talking? What am

14:03

I talking about? That guy just spelled

14:05

it out for you on national television,

14:08

Like, like, what do you think the police were gonna

14:10

do when they found out about your brilliant cops

14:12

killer plan? Because all you've

14:14

done is giving them an excuse to come

14:17

in here and kill us all But

14:19

but please don't do it in the next couple of hours, because

14:21

I'm a complete fucking idiot watching

14:24

man. No, I have been watching. I

14:26

have been watching everything that's happened

14:28

today. The cops killed your

14:30

son, okay, and

14:32

and and I saw that. But and

14:35

I truly am sorry, Gerald, I really

14:37

am. But I am not

14:39

dying for that ship. Jason.

14:42

No, Jays, you chill the funk out, because

14:44

I've done chilling because this

14:46

is just not my fight. It's

14:48

not it's not yours either, Jason, you know,

14:51

okay, But let me ask you, so, Gerald, do

14:54

you really think Jason

14:56

wants to ride this out with you. I've

14:58

known this fucking for of all time, and he's

15:01

just the self of society, if not more.

15:04

He's just gonna say to your face because you know, you

15:06

guys are boys, remark

15:09

my words. When push comes

15:11

to shove, he's going to cut

15:13

you loosely and go for somefing

15:15

just like he did when you guys chance,

15:18

when he rated you up. I

15:20

bet you think I knew that hum In

15:22

a flash, Jason's reflexes,

15:24

speed and quickness returned to him

15:26

as he charges. Martin tackles him to

15:28

the ground and then pummels him with a

15:30

series of wild punches and

15:38

enraged, Jason wraps his hands around

15:40

Martin's neck and starts to squeeze until

15:46

please, please, please, please,

15:48

please please don't let that

15:50

be what I think it is. You thought

15:53

Gerald killed certain place I

15:55

did. Seconds after Gerald

15:57

fires his rifle into the ceiling, the throw

15:59

line phone starts to ring. Listen

16:02

to this phone call between Detective Patterson

16:04

and Gerald. Gee, what's going on

16:06

in there? It's under control, Detective.

16:08

Everyone's fine, just needed to blow off from steam.

16:10

Well, we have a lot of cops out here. They would love to blossom

16:13

steam too. Trust me, Gee,

16:16

you don't want that, and I don't want

16:18

that either. Well, Gerald continues his

16:20

call. In the surveillance video, we see Martin

16:22

collect himself off the ground and staggered

16:24

towards the front door when Gerald stops

16:26

him. From the looks

16:29

of Martin's body language, you can

16:31

see a man who's bracing for the worst.

16:35

Detective, I got two

16:37

outs. That's just coming out. We got to coming

16:39

out. Don't shoot, don't

16:41

shoot. They took my feet out

16:43

from money so fast, had

16:46

my head face down on the pavement and come white

16:48

and little eyes, my hands behind my back. But

16:53

I could not have felt more relieved, Martin

16:55

recounts, and I vividly remember thinking

16:57

of myself at the time, I thank

17:00

God like over and

17:02

done with, you know,

17:06

but that what like

17:10

I had no idea that that day

17:13

would come to define me and follow me for

17:15

the rest of my life, that

17:18

would be my legacy. And

17:21

in that sense, you know, what I thought was

17:23

the end was really just the beginning.

17:26

You know. H I

17:30

mentioned before that people recognize me

17:32

as the guy who recorded

17:34

what the police did to Niles, and how

17:37

people see me as either usually one

17:40

of two ways. It's either,

17:44

Hey, you're one of the guys who stood

17:46

up to the police man,

17:48

Good for you, man, or it's

17:52

you're one of those police kidnappers, aren't you. The

17:56

truth is neither one of those bothers

17:58

me as much as the third type of person. What's

18:01

the third? You see,

18:03

there's this narrative out there that, uh,

18:06

I'm somehow a sellout because

18:09

I didn't stay with Gerald to the end.

18:13

And you want to know the toughest thing about that, Hm,

18:17

it's my people who are the ones

18:19

who call me a sell out. So if

18:21

you could change that narrative, what would you want them

18:23

to know about you? That I'm the

18:25

one guy who, without a doubt didn't

18:28

commit any crimes that day. I'm

18:30

the one guy who video Niles

18:32

getting brutalized from start to finish, which

18:35

means I documented the truth

18:38

I protested now is getting beat I

18:40

protested kidnapping a police officer,

18:43

and I protested killing a police officer.

18:45

And I'm a sell out. I'm

18:48

not a sellout. I'm just a

18:50

guy who ended up in a really bad situation

18:53

who managed to get out of it. So

18:56

what does that say about you? I'm

18:59

a Savira Kate. As a swat team

19:01

hoisted Martin off the asphalt and marched

19:03

him away from the building. You can see

19:05

him sort of look over his shoulder to see

19:07

if Jas was behind him,

19:09

but he wasn't there. Listen

19:12

to this exchange between Jason Gerald as

19:14

Martin gets whisked away from the bar. I

19:19

don't go. Yeah, I'm

19:23

will hold it down with you. Don't

19:25

worry about that other ship you think

19:27

all these years. I know it was you. He

19:30

slash man, good,

19:34

good old

19:37

man. Gerald

19:39

tells you to leave multiple times. He

19:42

forgives you for that thing between you guys when you were kids,

19:44

and you still stayed. Why

19:47

I don't know. Don't

19:50

get me wrong, I didn't look at it so much as I

19:52

was staying to help geraldn't standoff. I

19:54

think it was more. Uh, I

19:58

think it was this is my only real rand.

20:00

He just lost his son and

20:03

I ain't going bail plus

20:07

plus what I

20:09

mean? It was about me too, Other

20:12

than sports. Whenever things have gotten tough in my life,

20:14

I've always looked for the nearest doing marked easy

20:16

way out. I ran

20:19

right through it, not

20:23

this time. This

20:36

is a team photo from the police department

20:38

in the Merroal Basketball League. I've coaches

20:40

squad with Detective Homer for twenty years now,

20:42

but this is the only time we won the championship.

20:45

Palmer looks the same. Wait,

20:49

is that certain place it

20:52

is? I forgot he was on that roster.

20:55

He was a rookie on the forest that year. Here's

20:59

a pentu. You're me being sworn in with you can. As

21:02

Commander Ammonds offers me a virtual tour

21:04

of his professional life. By telling little anecdotes

21:06

about the many photos hung on his office wall,

21:09

it becomes clearer to me how

21:11

intimate the fraternity among police officers

21:14

really is. For some reason,

21:16

I always saw Commander Ammonds as other

21:19

the adult in the room, the sensible

21:21

leader, and don't get me wrong. I

21:23

still think that portrayal is mostly accurate.

21:26

It's just incomplete. Knowing

21:29

that Commander Ammon's coached a young sergeant

21:31

place back when he was a rookie on the force

21:33

tells me that Ammon's probably isn't quite

21:36

as impartial as I previously assumed.

21:38

Ammons is true blue, and

21:42

at the very least, it's time

21:44

to start asking the commander some uncomfortable

21:46

questions too, just like everyone

21:48

else at the stage of my investigation, Please

21:51

have a seat. So,

21:54

Commander, having seen

21:57

body cam and dash cam footage from your

21:59

officers during the Elsays traffic stop,

22:01

were you surprised at

22:03

all by how aggressive they were from the outset? I

22:07

think if you look back at my actions and decisions

22:09

that day, you get a clear indication of what behavior

22:11

I thought was and was not acceptable, whether

22:14

it was from police officers or otherwise. But

22:16

respectfully, Commander, that's not what I asked.

22:19

It's one thing to condemn inappropriate actions

22:22

after the fact. Well, I

22:24

get your drift, but there's a context

22:26

or wish I view everything. Okay, what's

22:28

the context? I

22:31

know that traffic stops and domestic violence

22:33

calls are the most dangerous scenarios that our officers

22:35

walk into on a daily basis, and each one is

22:37

different. Yes, and I understand that, I

22:39

think everyone does. But now

22:42

let's set aside the fact that there is an inherent

22:44

level of danger and police work. Well, that's

22:46

my point though, Okay, I don't know that you

22:48

can ever take the threat of danger out of the equation.

22:51

Okay, fine, danger is a fixed part of the equation.

22:53

I don't want to argue that with you. But to the extent

22:56

that you can commander what I'm trying

22:58

to get from you based on your prior interactions

23:00

with Sergeant Place, does it add

23:02

up that here Officer web for that matter, acted

23:05

the way they did from the outset. Were

23:08

there any red flags or other parts of the equation

23:10

before this traffic stop that indicated

23:13

something like this might happen? If

23:16

you look at Officer Webb's file, he

23:18

had two complaints for excessive use of

23:20

force that were resolved through mediation

23:22

and another one that was still under investigation at

23:24

the time of the Hayes traffics. Okay, and what about

23:26

Sergeant Place, and he complains about excessive

23:28

force, any complaints or investigations

23:31

about using racist language or having

23:34

views that could be characterized as anti black.

23:36

Sergeant Place and a handful of other officers

23:39

were flagged for comments made an online chat

23:41

room about a racist meme that had been passed

23:43

around. Okay, to my knowledge, that investigation

23:46

was completed, and I believe all officers involved

23:48

were advised to intend the department's racial sensitivity

23:50

training programs. So basically,

23:53

what you're telling me is that of the two policemen

23:55

who pulled Niles over, one was being investigated

23:58

for excessive use of force and the other

24:00

one had been involved in an investigation for making

24:03

inappropriate racial comments.

24:05

Yes, but both men were under your

24:07

command, correct, Yes?

24:10

M hm, A commander,

24:12

do you feel responsible at all for what happened to Niles?

24:15

As you pointed out, these men were under

24:17

my command. So I am burdened by the fact

24:19

that this traffic stop went so horribly wrong

24:22

on my watch, And I'd be lying if I

24:24

didn't admit that part of the problem that I think you're hinting

24:26

at is institutional as well.

24:28

But ultimately, our officers are accountable

24:31

for their own actions, just as you or

24:33

I have to be responsible for what we do

24:35

in our lives. And what would you say is the primary

24:37

responsibility of your office order.

24:40

From the time I arrived on the scene that afternoon

24:42

and on into the night, my every move was about

24:44

finding a way for us to diffuse this chaotic powder

24:47

keg and restore order. Okay, did

24:49

it ever occur to you that your opportunity

24:51

to ensure order was removing Sergeant Place

24:53

an officer went from active duty when they were

24:55

investigated for police brutality

24:58

and racism. I

25:00

mean, isn't that your powder

25:02

head right there? I'd be a fool or worse

25:04

kid if I didn't admit that. Your question is

25:06

one worth asking, And maybe

25:09

that's the lesson here. Diffuse

25:11

the little bombs before they become bigger bombs

25:13

like the one we faced that night. I don't have

25:15

a problem conceding that, because, as you

25:17

know, by the time doctor Azadi exited

25:19

the building and then Martin shortly thereafter, I

25:22

was facing a problem so big that, regardless

25:24

of how this thing started and who started it, we

25:27

the police were boxed into a situation where

25:29

we had to be proactive

25:31

in determining the final outcome. At

25:33

that point, I felt I didn't have a choice

25:36

but to go on offense, and that's when

25:38

I had Captain Flores take me and his team

25:40

through the plan and what was that. It

25:45

was all very standard stuff. First

25:48

we've got the power, then initiate

25:50

a triple breach entry with a RAM at each position.

25:53

Breach position one was at the northeast

25:55

plate class window because that's where we assumed HT

25:57

one gerald would be. Breach

26:00

position too was at the front door, and breach

26:02

point three was on the west side window, which would

26:04

pretty much have them entering directly into the main bar

26:06

area. My men were given

26:08

strict orders to maintain muzzle discipline.

26:12

That said, I did, at this juncture finally give them

26:14

the green light to fire. Once the assault had

26:16

commenced, I asked Detective

26:18

Patterson how he felt when he was told

26:20

that the decision was made to take the building by

26:22

force. Well, that's the thing. Nobody

26:25

officially told me anything, but

26:28

it was pretty apparent by what was going on.

26:31

The trailer was filled with squad guys and

26:33

it pretty much taken over the space. Close

26:36

as anyone got to tell him me they had given up

26:38

the negotiations was when Commander am

26:40

And slapped me on the shoulder and said something

26:42

to the effect of, if you get

26:45

the h D on the line, again put him at ease

26:47

for us. So yeah, it pretty

26:49

much told me all I needed to know. So

26:51

anyway, at officer of Rambo's patched

26:53

me into the mobile phone just in case

26:55

Gerald did call again, which I'm

26:58

pretty sure he wouldn't, for as I was concerned

27:00

my work for the night was done. When

27:02

I stepped out the mobile command unit to get

27:04

some fresh air, I saw Hobbs

27:06

and Homer seated on the bench near the brake area.

27:10

To him looked like defeated teammates who

27:12

had just lost a big game, and

27:14

so I went over to say what's up to them?

27:17

And I noticed out of the corner of my eye this

27:19

woman sitting by herself, and

27:21

I said, to the guys, don't turn

27:23

around, but it's that the mother

27:26

sitting at your three o'clock. They

27:28

both nodded their head yes at the same time, like

27:30

they were part of a comedy act. I

27:32

asked if anyone had gone over to talk to her, but

27:35

this time they shook their head no. So

27:39

I went over there and introduced myself. Hobbs

27:42

and Harmer came too, but they sort

27:44

of hung back. I think

27:46

most cops would rather take a bullet than be the first

27:48

to talk to a grieving mother. Well,

27:52

what was her I'd

27:54

say? Detached? I

27:56

offered to have a grief counsel to come sit with her,

27:58

and she waited. What did

28:00

she say? God is my grief

28:03

counselor Kate? In

28:05

sense, Detective Patterson wasn't telling

28:07

me anything that I hadn't already learned

28:09

scrolling through my phone. I

28:12

told him exactly what I wanted

28:14

him to do for me. And

28:17

what was that. Michelle made it clear

28:19

and no uncertain terms, that she wanted to see

28:21

her son before he came out of that building. And

28:24

I told her, if the opportunity presented itself,

28:27

I would do everything I could to get her in there.

28:30

But in reality, the way

28:32

those Square guys were tooling up, I

28:35

was doubt for they would even be a building to walk

28:37

into by the time they were done with their assaults.

28:40

So, Jason, after Martin leaves, what

28:43

was the mood like for you and Gerald while you

28:45

were waiting for me? Each

28:47

second that passed ratch up more and more pressure

28:49

because I know what's coming next. Yeah,

28:52

in Gun's place, And what was Gerald's mood? Well,

28:56

he thought they had it all under control, So

28:59

I think it since I'm staying anyway,

29:02

I might as well try to talk to him again. Listen

29:04

to Jay's convey his concerns to Gerald. I

29:06

hate to say it, man, but one was right. What

29:10

cops man bust

29:12

on that door and take us out raid

29:16

on the raid. I'm going to finish

29:18

my business with that copy for me. Oh

29:20

yeah, man, I feel you. I just wanted to

29:23

make sure you knew what it is. But

29:26

what if there was a way to stop? What

29:29

did you know what Gerald was talking about? There? He

29:31

sort of trailed off and before

29:33

we could get into it, sad you play started calling

29:36

out again. Hey, I

29:38

want to go Can

29:41

somebody give you a phone? Please?

29:44

I just want to go home. Gerald

29:46

walks over to the kitchen and through the double doors.

29:48

Sergeant Place continues his pleas as

29:50

Gerald stares at the policeman's desperation.

29:53

Please Gerald, have

29:56

a wife, thinks Susan. I have a

29:58

seven year old, point ninged Dan. The

30:00

baby girl rights.

30:06

I just want to hear their voices one more time. Okay,

30:09

I just want to see goodbye. When we go live,

30:12

you can see you piece. So

30:17

they taking back to the dining Give me your

30:19

phone too. I need to make a coal Hello,

30:23

very well, Jake no.

30:27

As Gerald talks on the phone, Jace

30:30

wheels the policeman back to the dining room

30:32

and positions him on the stage where the wounded

30:34

cop would then wait for nearly an

30:36

hour PM.

30:38

Sharp Gerald user account goes live again

30:40

on the polycam map. In the

30:42

surveillance video, we can see that Jason

30:45

is recording the millions of people

30:47

viewing the live streams. See the two shot of

30:49

Gerald and Sergeant Play seated side

30:51

by side. A running tally at the

30:53

bottom of the screen shows the votes updating

30:56

in real time. The official number

30:58

when Gerald logs on is three

31:00

million, four hundred eight thousand, two hundred

31:02

twenty three up votes for innocent and

31:05

three million, five two thousand,

31:08

one thirty eight down votes

31:10

for guilty. You've

31:14

got anything else that you want to say, so

31:16

right when Gerald goes live, the first thing he

31:18

does is give Sergeant Place the opportunity

31:21

to speak. But it's

31:23

clear the policeman is fighting to contain

31:26

his emotions because you just see him taking

31:28

these long, deep breaths and sort of not

31:31

being able to get any words out. Colleen

31:33

Sanders recounts, and part of me wants

31:36

to say that you could hear a pin drop, But that's

31:39

not an accurate description of what it was

31:41

like outside of Jase's forty two either,

31:43

because there was plenty of noise from helicopters

31:46

flying overhead and generators rumbling.

31:48

But there was the eerie sensation

31:52

of silence because all of

31:54

the people, the protesters, the onlookers,

31:56

the media, nobody

31:59

was saying anything. And

32:01

you just know instinctually, when

32:03

there's that many people packed into one area,

32:06

you should hear a crowd murmur, but

32:08

it wasn't there. The only

32:10

voices I do remember hearing was the

32:13

radio chatter going back and forth between

32:15

police that we were picking up off of our scanner.

32:18

The police radio chatter was Captain Flora's

32:20

giving orders to a swat team. In the

32:22

surveillance video, you can see the captain

32:25

standing behind two cop cars parked

32:27

at forty five degree angles in the shape

32:29

of a V, positioned immediately

32:31

in front of the building. And

32:48

then all of a sudden, there was this loud

32:51

cheer that swept through

32:53

the crowd. Solle

33:30

what what happened out there? Confusion?

33:34

Right? But why While

33:38

me and my team are still huddled around the scanner

33:40

listening to the police radio, we were of

33:42

course, also watching Gerald's

33:44

polycam live stream on our phones as

33:47

well, so we pretty much

33:49

know the police or moments away from

33:51

launching an assault. And as

33:54

the police are literally counting down the

33:56

seconds before they make their move, that's

33:59

when we hear super loud roar

34:01

from the crowd, and someone on the police

34:03

radio chimes in and tries to tell the captain there's

34:06

essentially an armed militia headed towards

34:08

the restaurant. That was one

34:10

of the police nipers exactly. So then

34:13

the captain or someone hears

34:15

this and tries to issue in order

34:17

to stand down, but between him

34:19

and other people all trying

34:22

to communicate on the same line at the same time,

34:24

the police communications start coming across

34:26

super distorted and basically

34:29

unintelligible. One

34:31

of the swat teams, the one that was also responsible

34:34

for cutting the power, doesn't hear

34:36

the stand down order, so they

34:39

keep going as originally planned and

34:41

cut the lights, then ram

34:43

through the plate glass window that leads into

34:45

the main bar area, and that's

34:48

when they release a flash bang. Commander

34:51

Ammons tells us his thoughts in that moment

34:53

when that flash bang went off, I thought

34:56

all hell was about to break loose you've

34:58

got armed protesters who at this point how their

35:00

weapons trained on us. SWAT is getting

35:02

mixed signals or no signal at all, and

35:04

who knows how the ht S are gonna respond to

35:07

this. So I take off, running out

35:09

of the command trailer, screaming no go, and literally

35:11

put my hands on the lead SWAT team member

35:14

to prevent them from entering the building. Luckily,

35:16

the other two teams never breached. But

35:18

now you have I don't know, maybe a hundred

35:21

or so armed men with weapons pointed

35:23

at us the police, and of course my

35:25

men are now taking aim back at them, And in that

35:27

moment, I'm just praying that

35:29

nobody starts shooting. But

35:32

I'm also thinking, how the

35:34

hell did this force mobilize on us so fast?

35:37

Where did they come from? Yeah?

35:39

I got a phone call on my call, I d said

35:41

Jason, But it wasn't Jackson,

35:44

who was it? It was Gerald? Hello,

35:48

what's up? Jack? No.

35:53

The first thing I wanted Jail to know that

35:56

he had my simple piece. I'm

35:58

a father too. I think you already

36:00

know Kick that I thought the world of now. So

36:03

yeah, just a man and man talk. Okay,

36:06

big age, forgive me for being blunt I've listened

36:08

to the recording of the call between the two of you, and

36:13

Look, I'm just trying to figure out how and when Gerald

36:16

told you to bring armed men to Jason's forty two.

36:19

You can't figure it out because he didn't never tell

36:21

me to do no ship like that. Big age

36:23

is right. Gerald never makes an explicit

36:25

request, but he does say this, listen,

36:29

if you need anything, I got

36:31

you. Yeah, it looked like one time,

36:33

I'm trying to take down the movement

36:35

before we even finished where we started. You

36:38

mean the world to me, be the homies

36:40

to show up? Show up?

36:44

What did Gerald mean by show up and show

36:46

out? Does that mean gang

36:49

bangers? No, it's

36:51

just some concerned citizens making their voices heard.

36:54

That's all okay, But how

36:57

is it they all ended up at Jason's forty two so quickly

37:00

they all came armed? This is still

37:02

America? Right? Did you coordinate

37:04

the militia? Look, I

37:06

put the word out to the community that I

37:08

was headed down to Jase's forty two to stand

37:10

up with cheek for Jason and

37:13

for now. But no, I

37:16

never asked anyone to bring a weapon.

37:18

As the police mounted their failed assault on

37:20

the building and cut the power. Gerald,

37:23

to his credit, never did anything

37:25

erratic. Even when the flash

37:28

bang went off, He didn't so much

37:30

as flinch. Instead,

37:32

as it became clear that Swatt had aborted

37:34

their takedown efforts and the world around

37:36

him was diving into a panic, Gerald

37:39

coolly offered this dark message before

37:42

ending his live stream. Nothing it's

37:45

going to stop this trial from finishing. We

37:48

go out again, Bob minutes

37:50

before to vote close. Join us next

37:52

time for the conclusion of

37:54

Hashtag Hashtag

38:10

Matter starring Amen

38:13

Joseph as Gerald Hayes, Jennifer

38:15

Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve

38:18

Harris as Jason shaw Hayley,

38:20

Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Pooch

38:23

Hall as Martin Simms, and

38:26

Snoop Dogg as Big H. Additional

38:29

performances by Nile Bullock

38:31

as Nile's Hayes, Serena Pouncey

38:34

as Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell

38:37

as Detective Patterson, and Alex

38:39

Vaughan as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag

38:41

Matter was written and directed by Dylan

38:44

C. Brown. Our executive producers

38:46

are Sandy Bailey, Lauren

38:49

Holman, Dylan Brown, Winnie

38:52

Kemp, and Amon Joseph.

38:55

Audio designed by Wolf at the Door. Sound

38:59

design and Mick by Josh Falcon,

39:02

music by Jonathan Sandford,

39:05

edited by Darren Boland, and

39:07

our sound director is Alexander Kemp.

39:10

Produced by Toby Lawless and Lucy

39:13

Jones. Casting by Lawless

39:16

Casting. Hashtag Matter

39:18

is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership

39:21

with I Heart Radio and an association with

39:23

Wolf at the Door. For more podcasts

39:25

from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart

39:27

Radio app, Apple podcast, or

39:30

wherever you listen to your favorite shows.