0:02

This podcast is a dramatization of

0:04

fictionalized events that contains culturally

0:07

insensitive language and violence. Michelle,

0:17

Okay, yeah, come on here.

0:19

Thank you so much because

0:23

here's okay, Yeah, that's fine. You need

0:25

any waterying? Actually

0:28

fine? Thank you. Last

0:32

night I was thinking about canceling all you And

0:36

it's not that I don't want to do this. It's

0:38

just a lot to revisit. Everything

0:40

has happened a

0:42

little over twelve months ago, an eighteen

0:45

year old African American young man named

0:47

Niles Hayes was driving a family

0:49

friends luxury vehicle when he was stopped for a

0:51

routine traffic violation. Officially,

0:54

it was for an illegal lane change, but most likely

0:56

he was stopped for another common defense d

0:59

w B driving while black.

1:02

The police officers that pulled him over, Sergeant

1:05

Place, along with his partner, Officer Webb, antagonized

1:07

Niles and things escalate

1:10

quickly. The two cops then forcibly

1:12

removed Niles from the problems and proceed

1:14

to beat him into submission. Niles

1:19

father, Gerald Hayes, who was working

1:21

construction nearby, sees his son in peril

1:24

and instinctively rushes into the fray to

1:26

protect him.

1:33

More violence ensues and after a

1:35

short scuffle, Gerald could see up her

1:37

hand.

1:41

But Gerald's intervention of the police attack was

1:43

only the first of many high stakes decisions

1:45

he would make on this long day and night that would

1:48

go on to captivate a nation. But

1:50

the situation made a dramatic turn when

1:52

convicted Felon and father Gerald Hayes

1:55

took matters and Gerald assaulted

1:57

the police officers, who appeared to be using

2:00

an excessive amount. Me, the most important

2:02

thing is that law enforcement do the right thing,

2:05

and we can be afraid to call this what

2:07

it is. This is terrorist. Oh

2:09

my god, come on and

2:13

being inflammatory. I'm

2:16

journalist and author Kate Bell, and

2:18

you're listening to hashtag matter

2:21

Part one.

2:35

Within hours of the police stop, footage

2:37

of the entire altercation between Niles

2:39

and the arresting officers, including the part

2:42

where we see his father Gerald Russian

2:44

to fight the cops off, gets posted online

2:46

and it goes viral.

2:50

The response was so massive that it resulted in

2:52

the most commented on threat in the history

2:54

of social media.

2:57

I just watched the video showing what

2:59

the cops it to that boy in l A and I'm

3:01

literally sick to my stomach.

3:03

I got a message for all you Black Lives Matter

3:06

Colin capernators out there, get

3:08

a fucking job already. Hey look,

3:10

man, I see that somebody on hands was talking

3:13

real reckless about cat. Go sit your

3:15

punk ass down. Also, I

3:17

want to say rest in power to Nils and

3:20

to Gerald. Come one father to another.

3:23

No man should have to go through what you're going through.

3:25

Guys, this is clearly a warning sign

3:27

for all real Americans to get ready.

3:30

Gerald. Hey, he's got him shook, bro. That's

3:32

on. But out of the millions of comments

3:34

online in this endless see of punditry,

3:37

something about this next post I'm going to play

3:39

for you by social media influencer At

3:41

Wilkin. Sassi has stuck with me the most.

3:44

Here we go with this ship again. We got

3:46

video evidence that shows the truth.

3:49

But the police, the police, unions,

3:52

the d A, and the media is gonna twist

3:54

everything up and get

3:56

it wrong. Generald is

3:58

a hero for taking Madison to his own

4:00

hands. And if you cannot say

4:02

that, they're I'm not fucking with you. They

4:05

gotta stout killing us, y'all. Why

4:07

the fund do I even have to say this shit?

4:11

So what is it about? At woken Sassy's post

4:13

that I keep coming back to. Ultimately,

4:16

I think it boils down to the fact that people's

4:18

perspective of Gerald Hayes is so extreme

4:21

that it drew a line in the sand. Because

4:23

for a lot of folks, what you think of Gerald

4:25

tells them everything they need to know about you. Either

4:27

you're on their side or you're on the other side,

4:30

with zero tolerance for anything in between,

4:33

which brings me to this. As polarizing

4:35

as Gerald's actions were that day, shouldn't

4:37

we get to know the man at the center of it all?

4:40

Because beyond the media snippets and sound

4:42

bites, what really drove him to make the extreme

4:45

choices he did that day? And how did

4:47

he have the constitution to follow through

4:49

with it? And above all, I

4:51

guess I want us all to revisit this remarkable

4:53

day's events and gather a more informed

4:55

decision about what we witnessed. Because

4:58

if at woken Sassy is right that this

5:00

is one of those events you have to chew sides

5:02

on, it leaves someone like me, who was

5:04

split on how I feel about Gerald, to

5:07

have to finally answer one simple

5:09

question, is he a hero

5:12

or is he a villain? Now?

5:15

I'm not naive in thinking that most people

5:17

don't already have a fully developed opinion on

5:19

the man, or that my perspective,

5:21

as objective as I tried to be, isn't

5:23

impacted by forty five years of being white

5:25

in America. But here's why I think

5:28

it's worth taken another look. The opinions

5:30

we hold may not be totally informed.

5:34

There are literally thousands

5:36

of hours of audio recordings,

5:38

phone footage, video surveillance, bodycams,

5:41

transcripts, and more of what happened

5:43

that day. Plus I'm in the process

5:45

of interviewing all the pivotal players who had

5:47

an impact on what would eventually transpire,

5:50

and me and my team are stitching

5:52

together all these sources into

5:54

one timeline with the hope that we can assemble

5:57

a fully rendered view of Gerald Hayes, the

6:00

harpenter, the single father,

6:02

the ex convict, the man.

6:04

Because if we really want to understand

6:06

what went on that day, we

6:09

have to get inside Gerald's head. And

6:12

in order to do this right, the

6:14

first thing we have to do is go back to the beginning,

6:18

the part you don't know, m

6:35

h.

6:40

We're listening to Gerald Hayes's pre dawned workout

6:43

routine by all accounts, Gerald

6:45

Hayes starts this day like any other, recording

6:48

himself as he rotates through an insanely

6:50

intense assortment of push ups, crunches,

6:53

and sit ups. Yeah,

7:05

where's my son sleep?

7:11

You know he will be a hard mess when you go off to school.

7:13

I'll be fine, ain't.

7:16

No, Gloody said that you ain't gonna be fine and never

7:18

had noble. Don't, don't,

7:22

don't get cute with me, he

7:26

no. Now to

7:28

Mamma Launcher, Niles

7:30

had been with his dad three days straight

7:32

on this new schedule we set up, but

7:35

he wasn't returning to my text or my call,

7:37

so I pulled up at five three

7:40

in the morning. This conversation

7:43

is from my first interview with Niles is mother Michelle

7:45

Hayes, And let me just say for the record

7:47

that in my twenty three year career, I've

7:50

never met a woman who's experienced real tragedy

7:53

who's displayed more grace and strength than she

7:55

did throughout this process. Michelle has got

7:57

a lot of moxie and she's a straight shooter. So

8:00

Gerald convinced me to flip our co

8:02

parent arrangement. He said he needed

8:05

to teach now some man skills, but

8:07

it's tough when you're about to lose

8:10

your baby to adulthood. And

8:12

then I pretty much go ahead and agree

8:14

to give up the last three months between high

8:16

school and college so he could

8:18

spend more time with his father. So you

8:21

weren't okay with the arrangement.

8:24

I mean, intellectually I was

8:26

fine with it. But more

8:28

than that, a mother knows her

8:31

child. And as big,

8:33

smart, artistic and social

8:36

as Niles was, you know, he

8:38

was super naive, like a lot of boys nowadays,

8:41

about things like change and

8:43

attire or even like start

8:45

a barbecue fire. So

8:48

as much as I wanted to keep Niles

8:50

close before he left for school, I

8:53

knew that Gerald was right. Plus

8:55

there was always that thing between both of them

8:57

were they always wanted

9:00

to make up for lost time. And

9:02

when you say make up for lost time, you're

9:04

referring to Gerald being away at prison.

9:07

M Yeah, how was

9:09

that on Niles rough Kate.

9:13

Gerald left when Niles was five, and

9:15

he was gone, so he was twelve and a half.

9:17

So yeah, that wasn't

9:19

easy for the first year. So Niles

9:21

would say things like, you know, is

9:23

Daddy coming home today? And I

9:25

would tell him Daddy's on a work trip. But

9:29

finally I had to just tell him the truth.

9:32

What made you give in? Kids are smart

9:34

kates. I realized

9:37

he was just giving me an opportunity

9:39

to come out of a lie. Anyway,

9:41

from there it got better for both

9:43

of us. Did you communicate a lot with Gerald

9:46

all he was in prison? Oh my god.

9:48

Yes, Gerald was just on this

9:50

mission to be the best freaking father on

9:53

the planet. I

9:55

mean he used to annoy the heck out

9:57

of me when he was away, sending all

9:59

kinds of letters with magazine

10:02

articles, book suggestions. So

10:04

basically he was telling me how to be a mother

10:07

from where he was And at first

10:09

I took offense to it and would be like, look,

10:12

it is too hard being a single

10:14

parent raising a child, and you just adding extra work.

10:18

And finally he said, Michelle, you're

10:20

not You're not alone. We're

10:23

doing this together. I'm

10:25

doing everything I can. So

10:27

he really he stayed in it a

10:29

hundred percent. And

10:31

then when he came home, you know, he

10:34

was still just on that mission to be the best

10:36

father to his son that he could be. But

10:39

Gerald doesn't really do moderation,

10:41

so you know, he had to be a role

10:43

model times, a hundred times a thousand.

10:46

So basically we he

10:50

had done such a good job with

10:52

novels over the years. I kind

10:54

of wanted to, you know, reward him,

10:57

reward both of them with m

11:00

hm. Now

11:10

when your mother rings, yourself, hither back. Sorry,

11:13

I don't want any forced apologies.

11:15

Why don't you go show what you've been working on. You're

11:18

supposed to be a surprise, show me what. Just

11:21

go get it. It looks great now.

11:28

We're making this jewelry box for you. I

11:31

just don't need to varnish it and put lining on

11:33

the inside. You made this for

11:35

me. Oh this is

11:38

mom.

11:41

Don't cry.

11:47

You want to say it the jewelry box?

11:50

Yes? Please? And

11:54

Niles did this by hand yep.

11:58

Oh wow mm

12:01

A detail in the carving is amazing. I

12:04

know that was nice. Amazing

12:10

m hmm. Don't

12:13

go Gerald,

12:16

you're not gonna say grace on m

12:23

Father, God, we thank you for this meal.

12:26

We thank you for our health, and we thank

12:28

you for our sin. We ask that

12:30

you protect and look over him as

12:33

he carries on in his journey to college. Father,

12:36

we ask that you continue to shine your light

12:38

on Gerald so that he may remain

12:40

steadfast in your light, never to return

12:43

to the dark days. Amen.

12:46

Amen, Amen. The

12:50

video recorders stopped rolling. Seconds later.

12:53

I asked Michelle if she recalled anything else

12:55

that stood out from that morning, anything

12:58

that I should know. Here's what she said.

13:01

We didn't need like that much hardly

13:05

ever, but I'm

13:07

super glad that we got to have

13:09

that moment together as

13:13

a family. After

13:17

breakfast, Gerald left the kitchen to take a

13:19

shower and get ready for work. And

13:22

when I said goodbye to Niles, I

13:25

remember hugging him and kissing

13:27

his cheeks like I used to when he was

13:29

little, and

13:32

he didn't stop me. That

13:36

was nice. And was

13:38

that the last time you were with

13:41

Nils alive? Yeah?

13:46

Yeah, h.

14:00

Shortly after Michelle left the apartment, the

14:03

next person to see Gerald and Niles that morning

14:05

was a lively character who goes by the name

14:07

Big h. His government

14:09

name is Alvin Cox, but nobody

14:12

dares call him that. Why

14:15

did they call you big Age? Back

14:18

when uh I got put on the set, Age

14:21

was my big home. So all of

14:23

the old g's at that time started calling me little

14:25

Age. So how did you go from little age

14:27

to big Age? I put in that work, motherfucker's

14:30

started hearing about me. Next thing, you know, I went

14:32

from little age to big age. Sign

14:35

of respect. He's not lying

14:37

about that either. You can tell

14:39

by the way people's body language would have changes

14:41

when they're in the presence of big Age that

14:43

he is very well respected or

14:46

feared. So you saw

14:48

Niles and Gerald the morning of

14:52

day that ship went down. Yeah, I sink

14:54

both of them. They came out

14:56

right there

14:59

over there by the light blue apartment complex.

15:01

Yeah yeah, see that pathway that cuts

15:03

between those two big patches of brown down

15:05

grass. Gerald always

15:07

parked his old beat up assholes will Bill right

15:09

there by the street. That was his spot.

15:12

And I was posted up in my ride directly across

15:14

the street, and he gave me like a little what up?

15:16

Not did Gerald say anything

15:19

to you at all? I don't think you really like chopping up

15:21

with me too much. I've

15:23

been knowing Gerald forever, like before

15:26

he was reformed this ship. You

15:29

know, we came up together. I don't

15:31

think he liked someone like me seeing the way

15:33

he was. And how was that like

15:36

normal? Because he knows

15:38

I know he ain't normal. He

15:41

was just Clark Kentny Wait, what

15:43

what's Clark Kenning that like?

15:46

Around here where we come from.

15:48

When someone holds it down for the set, people

15:52

respect that. Like you

15:54

know about how he got that limp? No,

15:57

well that's I think a big part

15:59

of oh Gerald is the MP.

16:02

Yeah, all that, the lamp, the attack

16:05

at Solid Dad really just

16:07

this time at prison in general, this

16:10

institution has always had a

16:12

bit of a reputation, unfortunately

16:14

for being a pretty violent place. That's

16:17

William Powell. He's a CEO a correctional

16:20

training facility more commonly known as Solidad

16:22

State Prison in California. Gerald

16:25

did his bid during time back when black

16:27

and brown relations were really bad. They're

16:30

always really bad, but they were worse than

16:32

really bad when he was here. Can

16:34

you tell me about the time when he was attacked? Which

16:38

attack must have happened

16:41

at least a dozen times? Gerald

16:44

is what we call a triple OSI. You

16:47

know, when you've got power, especially on

16:49

the answer, people are

16:51

going to test you. Um,

16:54

big age. I've heard of an o G, But

16:56

what's a triple o G. That's another

16:58

way of saying that her end things in here. Man.

17:01

To his credit, he did a pretty good job. Too

17:04

strange to hear you say, it's so casually say

17:06

what uh? I

17:09

don't know. It just seems sort of counterintuitive that a

17:11

CEO would admit to the fact that an inmate ran

17:13

things. I agree, it is. It's

17:17

it's counterintuitive. It's also

17:19

a reality in prison.

17:21

A social hierarchy's going to develop among

17:23

inmates and even the guards too. It's

17:26

just human nature, you know. He

17:29

he probably could have been a grand chess master

17:31

or or have worked for the Rand Corporation

17:33

or something like that. Very much a strategic

17:36

thinker, but you know, it's

17:39

also very violent. Short

17:41

fuse you look, I'm

17:44

not a psychologist, but there's probably

17:46

some personality disorder there was

17:48

he ever diagnosed in therapy. His

17:51

sentence was as diagnosis. No,

17:54

No, we don't. We don't have resources like that.

17:56

And why is that funding?

18:00

People don't give a ship And you know, personality

18:03

disorders are almost the keyest survival here.

18:05

If you don't have one, you might be better off developed

18:08

with one. Like I said, prison

18:10

is a violent place. Yeah, so

18:13

okay, back to that. There's a story

18:15

I've heard about Latino gang members attacking

18:17

Gerald. Oh you want

18:20

to know about that. What you have

18:22

to understand, Kate, if that is the numbers

18:24

game in prison, that's why for the most

18:26

part, White boys stick together,

18:29

Mexicans and Central America stick together, and

18:32

Nigga's stick together. Well, not all

18:34

the time, but when it's go time is

18:37

to give best interest to know what side

18:39

you want. Gerald

18:41

was barn none the most effective leader

18:44

I've seen, making bloods and

18:46

crips, squats whatever beasts.

18:48

They had a lot of people around here

18:50

didn't like that, so it was put on it.

18:53

Can you describe the incident for me? Gerald

18:57

is being transferred from this shoe special

18:59

How's unit to d blocker,

19:02

So it was basically a lame duck duck.

19:07

Lame duck is one of prisoners alone and easy

19:09

to pray on, no protection. Here's

19:12

the play. Three essays in the

19:14

line. It makes being moved in one direction and

19:17

gee and some random masks. Nobody's coming out to home.

19:19

It's going an opposite way. But Gerald,

19:21

he's smart as fun, so we already didn't pet

19:23

game, and he could tell some ship was about

19:26

to go down. All right

19:28

here Kate as the

19:30

first sound pulls out of his ship and steps up

19:32

to attack, Gerald just

19:35

pops him in the face and disarms

19:37

all right. As Gerald takes to share from dude in

19:39

the front, the other two essays squeezed

19:42

down on Jee and starts shaky from behind, like bang

19:44

bang. So what Gerald is getting hit?

19:47

He staffed through in the front, kind of swoops his body

19:49

around and use him as a shield from the dudes hit him

19:51

in the back. And now they

19:53

got stopped because they don't want to hit down

19:55

home. That was their big mistake.

20:00

Adn't run away. The best thing you can do is make

20:02

the person attacking you hesitate

20:04

the levels of playing field. It's like

20:06

that was all he needed to regroup sheet

20:09

he went from prey to predator. So what happened

20:11

to the guys who attacked him? One

20:14

dig the other two

20:16

were seriously injured. But

20:18

it's not like Gerald made it out unscathed. He

20:21

got worked over pretty bad in the incident. And

20:23

I believe he left and paralyzed and half

20:25

the one leg and he lost

20:27

the kidney. And

20:29

so wait, I'm a bit confused, Like

20:32

I know the other inmates started the fight, But

20:35

did Gerald get into legal trouble at all?

20:38

Check this? She represented

20:40

himself and beat all charges, case

20:43

dismissed, and that that's just some

20:45

ghetto superhero legendary ship.

20:48

I mean, it was self defense. And

20:50

when he gets attacked like that, anyone

20:54

deserves to be able to protect themselves. What's

20:57

crazy is most dudes would

20:59

have resume. Jeez, they

21:01

come back to the streets and you know, use

21:03

that reputation to you know, make

21:06

a little money, handle things, run

21:08

ship. But it's almost

21:10

like he said, Okay, I

21:12

paid enough dudes for me and my

21:14

son, and now I'm out the game. So

21:17

it was just like, no, Gerald was

21:19

untouchable. That's a given, but

21:22

so was Nowls. How do you mean

21:24

like nobody was gonna pressure now Is to claim and

21:26

set of join the game, because then you

21:28

knew what that meant. I'll have to deal

21:30

with that dude Gerald exactly,

21:33

and no one wanted to see Gerald have to come out of

21:36

retirement and getting that ass.

21:38

So what was Nails like? Different?

21:41

Like rock star different though, but

21:45

you know we don't really do rock stars in the hood.

21:48

Do you feel me? Can you give me an example of

21:50

how Niles stood out? M let

21:52

me see, Nowles might come

21:54

out that front door wearing a full length pink

21:57

overcoat and matching headscarf, some e

21:59

centric type ship. The nigga was just other.

22:02

But all of the young homies really looked

22:04

up to him, And was that because of Gerald's

22:06

reputation. No, no, no, Niles

22:09

was just special. He was

22:11

his own man. And if you really

22:14

want to know, I think they saw something

22:16

in him that they wished they could be, but

22:18

that they knew they could never be. They

22:20

knew he was going places like far

22:22

from the matter of fact, anybody

22:25

ever tell you about that Gucci A No,

22:28

what's up? Yeah, the Guccia.

22:31

I'll still be using that ship to this day. This

22:33

is Tray Mac talking. He and

22:36

Niles were best friends going back to second grade.

22:38

From all accounts, whether it's Michelle or Big

22:41

Age, these two were almost inseparable.

22:44

Me and some of the other homies from around the way

22:46

started getting papered up off a hustle or whatever,

22:49

you know, doing what we do and

22:51

with that extra cash, we were going shopping.

22:53

Right. Wait, when you say hustling, does that include

22:56

Niles. Niles was a hustle for show, but

22:58

he didn't get down like we did it. How do you mean

23:01

like Niles would never do anything

23:03

that would get him in trouble. He was never

23:05

gonna break the law because you know it's possible beyond

23:07

him. His mom's too Gucci.

23:11

Yeah, so me and some of the other friends

23:13

are making a little money, and we started buying our

23:16

Kasa fly ship, a lot of

23:18

Louis Findy and a gang

23:20

of Gucci. But Niles was like,

23:22

no, you're wasting all your money. And at

23:24

first we would be like get out here

23:26

with that ship there. One day he got

23:29

fed up and was like, I I'm gonna

23:31

show you. After that, nobody

23:33

saw this dude for like a weekend. Then

23:35

he pops up on the Monday, like, hey, put

23:38

this thing on program on your phone. Put

23:40

what on my phone? The Gucci app,

23:42

but it's spelled g O O

23:45

C H I. Okay,

23:47

So how does it work? The idea

23:49

is simple, right, It pulls prices

23:52

for expensive stuff you want to buy, like let's

23:55

just say a thousand dollar jacket, and

23:57

then it maps out how much that thing would

23:59

be worth been five years or ten years

24:01

even, and then I will show you that

24:04

that same jacket down the line. They work ship.

24:06

But it also shows you how much money you

24:08

would have if you put that g you spent on clothes

24:11

and let's just say a bond or some

24:13

other investment stocks, money market

24:15

accounts, commodities of man. You see,

24:17

your money could have grown and it's like, oh, ship,

24:20

the nigga needs to be fiscally responsible.

24:22

You feel me, Chin up, nose down,

24:25

Rise together? Wait, what's that was

24:27

like noles thing? You know, a little trademark

24:29

you used to say, chin up. It's like,

24:31

you know, self respect, now

24:34

respect for others, Like, don't look down on

24:36

nobody. Rise together, we

24:39

all eat, we all win. Jeez.

24:49

From the time Big Age sees Gerald and Niles

24:51

getting the car and right off, it's about

24:53

a forty minute drive from their apartment to Gerald's

24:56

work in an area of Los Angeles known

24:58

as the Valley, Jason forty

25:00

two Sports Bar and Grill was assumed to be

25:02

open to the public restaurant where Gerald

25:04

was working construction, and thanks

25:07

to a decision made by the bar's owner, Jay

25:09

Shaw, we have a boon of recordings of

25:11

Gerald and just about everyone else who entered

25:13

the establishment that day. Jas,

25:15

a former professional football player, was

25:18

obsessed with security. Because

25:20

of this, Every inch of the building was surveiled

25:22

in four K video and audio, and

25:25

there's construction paper and newspaper

25:27

taped to the inside of the windows, obstructing

25:29

anyone street side from looking into the building

25:32

while it's being renovated. Love

25:40

the door behind you. As Gerald

25:42

turns on the lights, we get a good look at the bar's interior.

25:45

The best way I can describe the place is

25:47

that it has a Parisian dining

25:50

hall look mixed with the modern cool hip

25:52

vibe, maybe even more inviting with

25:54

the sports themed paraphernalia mostly

25:57

featuring you guessed it highlights

25:59

of Jayce Shaw collegiate and professional

26:01

football playing career. Hey

26:03

day say Geezy

26:06

Quick? Playing around man. For

26:09

the larger part of the morning and early afternoon,

26:12

Gerald and Niles work together in a way that's

26:14

best described as harmonic. They

26:16

both don construction coveralls and goggles,

26:19

and at a glance, it can be difficult to distinguish

26:21

who is who in the surveillance video, but

26:24

an obvious teller is Gerald's awkward gait

26:26

when he limps from one end of the dining room

26:28

to another. Hey

26:30

who that there's

26:33

me? This is Jay Shaw.

26:36

Compared to the frame photographs that almost deified

26:38

Jay's past prowess and athleticism,

26:40

where we see chiseled muscles and clear eyed

26:43

focus, the man we see now looks

26:45

compromised by time and myriad

26:47

tools that nature uses to wear down the youth

26:50

Hubrists and anatomy.

26:52

As Jay's crosses from the entrance over

26:54

to the main bar, he pops five aspirant

26:57

and washes it down with a cocktail of

27:00

pepto bismol coffee and

27:02

a splashy pour of whiskey.

27:06

Are you guys ready to order? Let me get a club

27:08

soda with two lime weathers in the California on

27:10

the police, Jay's greed to

27:12

an interview as long as we did it at his favorite breakfast

27:15

spot in Venice Beach, which is walking distance

27:17

to the sober living house that he's been staying

27:19

in for the last two months. What

27:22

do you remember most about the earlier

27:24

part of that day? Were

27:26

you in a good mood or a bad mood? Or

27:29

I remember drinking a lot? Uh?

27:33

Let me see, I was hundreds of thousand

27:35

dollars in debt, I was going through a divorce

27:37

and I need to get the ball open a staff so that

27:39

I had a money coming in. That

27:41

was my mood, okay. So speaking of money,

27:44

I think I caught something unsurveillance,

27:47

a dispute between you and Gerald about past

27:49

to payment. I wouldn't call it a dispute

27:51

so much as we had a conversation. But

27:53

do you remember what was said? It's

27:56

true. Yeah, he

27:59

had been putting into was working our DeLint. So

28:02

did he threaten you? What

28:05

now? Like that between us?

28:07

I wanted to square things up with him because I

28:09

owed them big time. Honestly,

28:11

I didn't know when I would be able to because my

28:13

money was so funny. Then

28:16

he gave me a slight out when he brought up the game. Listen

28:19

to this exchange. I haven't mentioned the tickets

28:21

to now's either. If ticket

28:25

to nice basketball game? You said you had to hook

28:27

up? Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, my bad, my bad.

28:29

Yeah yeah, we're all good man. I just

28:32

forgot to pick him up. Hey

28:34

can I try? Hey? No,

28:38

yo? What's up now?

28:40

They? Oh? Boy, look at you get

28:42

big and ship. Hey

28:45

look it. I need you to make a run to my

28:47

attorney's office and pick up some tickets for us.

28:49

I'm taking you and your pops to the basketball game.

28:52

What now? Yeah? I know, he

28:55

take my car. You're going to Beverly

28:57

Hills. Boy, you might as well right and stop for

29:01

real school. As

29:04

Niles exits the bar to go on the errand,

29:06

he posts a few selfies of himself in front

29:09

of Jason's car, which was a

29:11

Matt Pearl seven series BMW

29:14

with fancy rims in an aerodynamic

29:16

looking spoiler. You could imagine

29:18

how an eighteen year old kid would be excited

29:20

to drive this car. So

29:22

you mentioned before that

29:25

you were caught off guard when Gerald

29:27

brought up going to the game. How

29:29

did you get the tickets so fast? I

29:32

still here to connects. I

29:34

had quite burnt all my bridges here. I

29:37

got the call maybe five

29:40

minutes before now showed up. This is Melissa

29:42

Hutchinson. She works for the sports

29:44

and entertainment law firm where Niles picked up

29:46

the tickets. When you're working

29:48

on the reception desk, the job is essentially

29:51

three things. One maintain

29:53

a level of alertness to be

29:55

super welcoming and three

29:58

make sure guests have valid dation before

30:00

they leave. And and do you remember

30:03

anything in particular? My boss

30:05

at the time was a little miffed that he had to

30:07

give up seats for the game. Technically

30:09

they were for clients, but if no one claimed

30:12

them, he usually got to take his family. And

30:15

what was Niles like. I

30:17

never told anybody this, but I totally

30:20

forgot to give him his parking validation. Usually

30:23

dotted my eyes and crossed my teas with that

30:26

sort of thing. But he sort of knocked

30:28

me off my game. How's that? He

30:30

was just really friendly and cute, charming.

30:34

He asked me if he could follow me on my socials,

30:37

and I gave him my info. We

30:39

got so lost in conversation I almost

30:41

forgot to give him the tickets. You kind

30:43

of liked him, didn't you. I mean yeah,

30:46

A little bit after

30:49

he left, I followed him back and you know, started

30:51

looking through his feed. Then he added

30:54

me in his last video, and wow,

30:58

you know what happened after that? Melissa's

31:01

referring, of course, to the ill fated encounter

31:03

with the police where Niles gets pulled over. But

31:06

one more critical thing happened that we have to cover

31:08

as part of the mesh up events. Because

31:11

while Niles was leaving Beverly Hills with the tickets,

31:13

back at the bar, Jason was giving his

31:15

former sports agent Martin Simms a

31:18

tour of his restaurant. It

31:20

wasn't just a tool for ships, he gave his Kate.

31:23

My plan was to hit man Nu for some caves.

31:26

I put the all man but it's on him, hoping

31:28

that I could open up those deepotsies. Jason

31:31

was an absolute mess that day, but

31:33

then again to me always was really that's

31:36

Martin Simms talking. The

31:38

best way I can describe him is risk

31:41

averse. Jay

31:44

smelled like booze and wouldn't stop going

31:46

on and on about some ridiculously overpriced

31:48

door knobs he just got. I

31:50

asked Jason about the door knobs as well. Do

31:53

I remember, Kate? Those

31:56

things were antique European

32:00

rustick brons them

32:02

ships was too random, peace, Martin

32:05

elaborates. Then he tells

32:07

me to put my hands on them to get

32:09

the feeling. And I

32:13

don't know. I mean, they felt like door

32:15

knobs, Kate, complete waste

32:17

of money. Okay, ka ka, let me tell you. Ex

32:19

person said, I like

32:21

to impress my potential investors. Yeah,

32:24

make him feel like they was having an experience. Even

32:26

better, paint the picture

32:28

for Jason's a salesman,

32:31

and I'll give him that NonStop talking.

32:33

He's going on and on and on, But

32:35

that in area is right through that. Then

32:38

it converts into a club. After ten pm.

32:41

We'll be drawn a thousand customers

32:43

a night. Easy.

32:45

But then he takes me into his office

32:48

where he has this Florida ceiling

32:50

glass case vault with an

32:52

arsenal of guns.

32:55

Yeah. My I didn't like my

32:57

toys. So I was straight

33:00

up with him. I'm like, Jason, I can't

33:02

invest in this. Either you're going

33:04

to get arrested because of this this armory,

33:06

or someone's gonna get hurt. And you know, I

33:09

even asked him, I said, what do you need this for anyway?

33:12

And what did he say? He said

33:14

he needed it for protection. And

33:17

I'm still from the hood. So

33:20

look, by this point, I was just ready to

33:22

leave, and I should have, but Jason

33:25

does what he does. He starts pressing me, ropes

33:27

me back in. He says, hey, I gotta

33:29

takes to the game, blah blah

33:31

blah and all this, that and the other. So in order

33:34

to get a second away from him leaning on me

33:36

to come in on this bar, I

33:38

said, look, I need to take some pigs and

33:40

videos of the place. You know, do my due

33:42

diligence. Now, mind you, I

33:45

had already made my decision. There was

33:47

no way in hell I'm

33:49

investing. But I

33:52

know him. We go way back, and I don't want to be rupe.

33:55

Don't remember what time he started taking photos of the place.

33:59

Yeah, it must have been around. According

34:01

to the time stamp on Niles of social media feed,

34:04

he went live for the last time at three o nine

34:06

pm while stopped at a red light on his

34:08

way back to Jason's forty two. Framed

34:11

in the shot, we see the steering wheels BMW

34:13

logo and he's proudly fanning the

34:15

four basketball game tickets. Listen,

34:19

Yeah, shout out to j Shaw.

34:21

I am Melissa H for the tickets

34:23

to the game. Damn

34:29

got the cop

34:32

that's gonna join me. As

34:37

Niles adjust his phone, the video post

34:39

ends. Did he mean

34:41

to stop it? Or was it an accident? Every

34:45

time I watch it, I wonder did

34:49

he have any idea that the video he just cut

34:51

short would be at last? Could

34:53

he sense that he was about to have a contentious

34:55

exchange with the police? Did he know that they

34:57

would have a hand in his death. Despite

35:01

all the recordings and testimonies

35:03

that I've gathered, those few

35:05

precious seconds between the end of

35:07

his post and the cops approaching

35:09

his car will forever

35:11

belonged to Niles and the unknown.

35:16

Coming up on the next episode of Hashtag Matter,

35:18

Hands up on the Dash? You want to put

35:21

my hands up on the dash? Now

35:24

all right, all right, all right, back, stop

35:26

that you're like a criminal. Comply, but

35:28

how am I acting like a crimson? And final

35:30

warning stop outside of the vehicle. We

35:33

will recount what we do know about the police, though

35:35

that goes so terribly wrong. Hashtag

35:43

Matter starring Aman

35:45

Joseph as Gerald Hayes, Jennifer

35:47

Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve

35:49

Harris as Jason Shaw Hayley,

35:52

Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Pooch

35:54

Hall as Martin Sims, and

35:56

Snoop Dogg as Big h

36:00

s Now. Performances by Nile Bullock

36:02

as Niles Hayes, Serena Pouncy

36:04

as Michelle Hayes, Alfonso Faustino

36:07

as Sergeant Hobbs, John Lacy as

36:09

Commander Emmonds, Alex Kihano

36:11

as Captain Flores, Monte Russell

36:14

as Detective Patterson, and Stephen Robert

36:16

Wallenberg as Detective Halmer. With

36:18

appearances by Mercy Malick,

36:21

Ryan Smith, Amir Tali,

36:24

Alex Vaughan, Colin Ward, and

36:26

Orval Williams. Hashtag

36:29

Matter was written and directed by Dylan

36:31

C. Brown. Our executive producers

36:34

are Sandy Bailey, Lauren

36:36

Holman, Dylan Brown, Winnie

36:39

Kemp and Aimon Joseph Audio

36:42

designed by Wolf at the Door. Sound

36:44

design and mix by Josh Falcon,

36:47

music by Jonathan Sandford, Edited

36:50

by Naron Oling and our

36:52

sound director in Alexander Kemp. Produced

36:55

by Toby Lawless and Lucy

36:57

Jones. Casting by Lawless

37:00

Casting. Hashtag Matter

37:02

is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership

37:04

with I Heart Radio and an association with Wolf

37:07

at the Door. For more podcasts from Shondaland

37:09

Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple

37:12

podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite

37:14

shows.