2:00

Come on, no, do not royalize

2:02

at me. I love this whole

2:04

selection hubbub because even though

2:07

the job of Veep is so wretched

2:09

and thankless that there was an

2:12

entire HBO series devoted to

2:14

it, who a nominee

2:16

picks as their running mate is really important.

2:18

It tells us a lot about their strategy

2:21

and state of mind, where they think they have

2:23

weaknesses, who they want to woo, on and on

2:25

and on and on. So first,

2:28

we are going to dig into this

2:30

process and then we're going

2:32

to make our cases for who the

2:35

presumed Republican front runner won Donald John

2:37

Trump ought to go with as his

2:39

next running mate. And you will note

2:41

that I said front runner, not

2:44

nominee, yes, it's not over, but still. So

2:46

to start us off, I want to know what

2:48

do each of you think a nominee should be

2:50

looking for in a VP? Three

2:54

things. Someone that

2:57

will help you win, someone that will help

2:59

you govern and someone that can do the

3:01

job if you croak. Oh, Professor Lazar. Like

3:03

that's it. But no, but the thing is,

3:05

I think candidates worry far too much about

3:07

the first one, right, who will help you

3:09

win. Forget about the second one who

3:11

will help you govern and don't really

3:13

care about the third one, someone that can do the job if

3:16

you croak because they won't be around anyway. Yeah,

3:18

they don't want to think about croaking.

3:21

They're saying that our presidential contenders aren't

3:24

such civic minded souls that they

3:26

don't imagine America going

3:28

on after they're passing. They can't imagine America without

3:30

them. I think the last two factors, the someone

3:32

that help you govern and someone that can do

3:35

the job if you're incapacitated are probably most important.

3:37

But there is a logic to caring most about

3:39

the someone that can help you win side is

3:41

kind of mercenary as it seems. I mean, it

3:44

doesn't matter if your VP is really good at

3:46

running the country if you don't win in the

3:48

first place. Well, Lydia, do you want to

3:50

pick apart one of those pieces since

3:53

Professor Lozada has gone wrong? Yeah, I

3:55

mean, it's

3:57

funny as we were as we were doing some. Reading

4:00

and and thinking of before this episode

4:02

and I realize that all of my

4:04

perceptions of the vice Presidency have been

4:06

so deeply influenced by the way the

4:08

vice presidency is portrayed in popular culture.

4:10

And when I was trying to think

4:12

about like oh, do I have a

4:14

favorite like historical vice president I realized

4:16

that I didn't But I do have

4:18

a get well no. But I mean

4:20

I obviously have favorites of the fictional

4:22

portrayals and basically like the to sort

4:24

of modes in which the vice president

4:27

is portrayed in popular culture. And here

4:29

I'm I got Tv. And movies, Not books

4:31

As books as when our carless as thing

4:33

that any of the rest of us setup

4:35

were not allowed to read. so they're literary

4:37

references, you come back of them. But they're

4:39

basically either a complete bumbling idiots in the

4:41

mode of Selina Meyer from the show V.

4:44

Or these like absolutely machiavellian skimmers

4:46

who like want to bring down

4:48

the main guy. You know, when

4:50

I was thinking about what the

4:53

vice. Presidency. As for for Hollywood it

4:55

seems to be for like making the

4:57

press this look good so maybe that's

4:59

ultimately what it is right? You want

5:01

somebody who's gonna like make you look

5:03

good for us, call us to you

5:05

have a real life saver it be

5:07

teased. Like to throw into the mix and. I

5:10

mean, I I think that the. Under.

5:13

Carlos, His. Rue.

5:15

Bricks. The most

5:17

successful the P Pick. Of

5:20

recent years is probably the man whose

5:22

president now. Joe. Biden. The

5:25

evidence that any the P pick.

5:27

Obviously. Helps you when is usually

5:30

negligible. The pics don't seem to

5:32

have a huge effect on the

5:34

race, but Biden was a case

5:36

where. Obama was clearly

5:38

choosing someone for sort of

5:40

outreach purposes. The kind of,

5:43

you know why? moderate. Catholic.

5:46

old are well known for well

5:48

known die someone who would be

5:50

presented as at least somewhat reassuring

5:53

to various kinds of swing voters

5:55

in a way that like a

5:57

lot of v p picks haven't

5:59

really been. Like Dick Cheney was

6:01

not an outreach pick. Pence kind of

6:03

was, right? No, Pence was a shore

6:05

up your base pick. Pence was a...

6:07

Yeah, I think Cheney and Pence

6:10

both outreach to different kinds of people. Well,

6:12

I don't think Cheney was an outreach pick

6:14

at all. He was supposed to be shoring

6:17

up the Republican establishment's comfort level with a

6:19

governor who had no experience.

6:21

Those people were going to vote for Bush 100%

6:24

no matter what. I think Cheney was a pure

6:27

governance pick. But even Pence,

6:30

there were a bunch of Republican

6:32

voters, especially evangelical voters, who were

6:35

just not sold on

6:37

Trump. And Pence was for

6:39

them with a touch of, you know,

6:41

here's a sort of more normal politician

6:43

for the swing voters. But if you

6:45

were really going for swing voters, you

6:47

would not pick someone as, you know,

6:49

deep dyed evangelical as Pence. I don't

6:52

think Kamala Harris was an outreach pick.

6:54

Kamala Harris was a, your base demands

6:56

an African American woman at this moment

6:58

of racial reckoning pick. So

7:00

it's actually unusual that Biden was an

7:02

outreach pick. He was also a governance

7:04

pick. And I think we have evidence

7:06

from his own presidency, as well

7:08

as from the Obama era, that he

7:10

is better at legislative dealmaking than Obama

7:13

ever was. So he was effective on

7:15

that front. And whatever you think of

7:17

his presidency, he has gone on to

7:19

be president, right? So he

7:21

sort of... He can conceivably govern.

7:23

He can conceivably be president and

7:25

has been. So I think that's

7:27

the closest we get to

7:30

the trifecta in modern

7:32

American history. I don't know. What do you guys

7:34

think? Weirdly, Obama kind of went, I mean, went

7:36

with him in part because he didn't think he

7:39

would run for president later. Yes, right. Right? Like,

7:41

he was like, he won't be distracted by like

7:43

trying to run later on, you know? Yeah. That

7:47

was true. I mean, it didn't happen in 2016, right? It's

7:50

true that he didn't want the vice

7:52

president to have a sort of separate

7:54

political agenda. He didn't want the Machiavellian

7:56

schemer. And he got that. Biden did

7:59

not, like, plan. and execute

8:02

a presidential campaign while he was vice president.

8:04

The way everyone from

8:06

Richard Nixon to Al Gore has had

8:08

to do. He did it later. Well,

8:11

and I think like him not running for president

8:13

had a lot to do with his son's death

8:15

and you know things like that. Like I don't

8:17

think that it was a fait accompli that he

8:20

was never gonna run for office after Obama's two

8:22

terms. The other thing that's striking about the Biden

8:24

pick in reference to the current situation and the

8:26

probable Republican nominee is that Biden

8:28

had said some not great things about

8:30

Obama, right? What do you mean? He

8:33

called him clean and articulate. Clean and

8:35

articulate. He complimented him. What's wrong with

8:37

that? I don't understand the problem. Having

8:39

received many, many compliments of that type

8:41

over the course of my life, I can tell you they're

8:43

extremely flattering. That is sarcasm you're detecting.

8:46

But I think that that was clearly

8:48

intentional and I think that choosing someone

8:51

who you know maybe sort of like made a

8:53

little stumble around race was a way of kind

8:55

of opening up the field. I'm just sort of

8:57

furthering Ross's point here. But I do and we'll

8:59

talk about this later. I do wonder if that's

9:01

going to be a part

9:04

of the strategy for the Republican

9:06

nominee. Well, picking somebody who

9:09

tends to be unifying is one way that

9:11

you can go. Other

9:13

ways are traditionally and this one has

9:15

always seemed like a stretch to me.

9:17

You pick somebody from a swing state.

9:19

You pick geography so that maybe you

9:21

can capture their state. Or

9:23

as we've been talking about, you pick

9:25

somebody who really appeals to one segment

9:27

of your base like Kamala Harris, black

9:29

women, or evangelicals,

9:32

Mike Pence, and the traditionalists.

9:34

Do any of those strike you as a

9:37

better bet than others? Or are

9:39

they just all pointless and we should just acknowledge

9:42

that this is all a game? That's

9:44

a semi-pointless. I mean, I think it

9:46

just depends on the presidential candidate. You

9:49

can see why Biden, who

9:51

sort of backed into the

9:53

nomination by being sort

9:55

of the safe, moderate consensus

9:57

choice when other candidates had been

9:59

competing. waiting for the activist left

10:02

would feel like he needed something

10:04

potentially base energizing. Now, whether anyone

10:07

was actually energized by Harris is

10:09

a separate question, but you

10:11

could see why a figure like Biden

10:13

would worry about base energy, whereas you

10:15

could see why a more ideological

10:18

president would worry about sort of

10:20

outreach or safety. I mean, George H.W.

10:23

Bush, who Ronald Reagan picked in 1980,

10:26

that I think more than Cheney in

10:28

2000, that was the pick to sort of reassure suburban

10:31

establishment country club Republicans

10:34

that this California right-winger

10:37

was still going to have some of the old

10:39

spirit of Nelson Rockefeller and

10:41

Gerald Ford in his administration. And

10:44

that made sense, I think. I like it when

10:46

they're sending a generic vibe out there or a

10:48

specific vibe out there. You know, like with

10:51

Al Gore on the ticket with Clinton,

10:54

it's 92. They really wanted to

10:57

telegraph new day, new generation,

10:59

new excitement, whatever. And even

11:01

to some degree, Al Gore,

11:03

who was always slammed as

11:06

extremely cautious, extremely boring or

11:08

whatever, he took a

11:10

bit of a risk putting Joe Lieberman

11:12

as a historic first Jewish guy on

11:14

the ticket, trying to telegraph

11:17

that I'm not as predictable as you think I am.

11:20

I don't know that Lieberman was necessarily going to

11:22

excite anybody, but they try these things. Come

11:25

on. People,

11:27

I think the Lieberman pick was

11:29

effective and it also telegraphed specifically

11:32

separation from Clinton because Lieberman had

11:35

been a prominent, a

11:37

moralist and critic of Clinton. And

11:40

the Clinton-Gore race, that was the rare

11:42

double down choice. Yeah. It would be

11:44

like if Trump had picked Newt Gingrich,

11:46

which he was considering as his running

11:48

mate. It's like, you like me, you

11:50

can have more of me all the

11:52

way. Yeah. Let's go. Well, because there's

11:54

the partnership model, which is kind of

11:57

the stumbling down and the balancing model.

11:59

The scholar Elaine K-Mark has written

12:01

about this. You can do

12:03

balancing, right? Like, you know,

12:05

Massachusetts, JFK picks Southern LBJ.

12:07

Conservative Southerner adds Midwestern liberal

12:09

with Carter and Mondale. But

12:11

then like Clinton Gore, Cheney

12:14

Bush, Obama Biden, those are much more

12:16

in the like partnership models where you

12:18

actually gave your vice president more,

12:21

not just like, funeral

12:23

and trips to countries no one cares

12:25

about, you know, like actually a partner

12:27

in government. The geographical model

12:29

also belongs to an era, I think,

12:31

where America was less

12:34

ideologically divided and more

12:37

geographically divided. And as ideology has

12:39

replaced geography, the idea that picking

12:41

a Southern politician gets you

12:44

Southern votes has diminished.

12:46

Well, talking about the real partnership model, I

12:48

mean, that brings the question of how has

12:51

the job itself evolved

12:53

or been redefined in recent decades?

12:55

I mean, you can start

12:57

with anyone, you know, like, Cheney,

12:59

of course, is regarded as

13:01

the strongest VP possibly ever. But,

13:04

but Carlos, you have mentioned

13:06

a little bit about how the job has changed.

13:08

How do you see it? You

13:11

know, the journalist, Jules

13:13

Whitcover wrote a book about the vice

13:15

presidency, something like From Irrelevance to Power

13:18

or something like that. Scintillating story of

13:20

my life. He said, I

13:22

think you got that backwards. But

13:25

he said, you know, he pointed out

13:27

like the typical story is that with Gore,

13:29

the role of the vice presidency

13:31

became more, more substantive. And then Cheney

13:34

took it up a notch, several notches.

13:36

It's actually a great moment. And I

13:38

think it's something by by Len K.

13:41

Mark, where right after Bush

13:43

and Cheney took office, Quayle came to visit

13:45

Cheney to kind of like tell Cheney what

13:47

the vice presidency is all about. Oh, sweet

13:50

Jesus. Right. Stan Quayle, you know, George H.W.

13:52

Bush's vice president, potato fame. And he's like,

13:54

you know, lots of travel. He had been

13:56

to like a lot of countries that didn't

13:59

matter that much. much and Cheney just

14:01

listened very politely and said, the president

14:03

and I have a different conception of what this job is

14:05

going to be. So getting

14:07

back to irrelevance to power, right? Jules

14:09

Woodcover said that the moment

14:11

when VPs began to be taken more seriously

14:14

was with Truman. After

14:17

Truman came in and

14:19

suddenly he was read in on like all

14:21

this stuff he had no idea about including

14:24

like the atomic bomb program and you

14:26

know, stuff where he had not been really

14:28

up to speed. The

14:30

UFO recovery program. There you go.

14:35

And then he's like, and since then presidents

14:37

have at least made an effort to keep

14:39

their VPs far better informed. But

14:41

you know what's interesting to

14:44

see I think is the kind

14:46

of vice president that

14:48

presidents who used to be vice

14:50

presidents themselves select. And

14:53

I think they often select kind of

14:55

weaker VPs. George

14:57

H.W. Bush picked Van Quayle.

14:59

Yeah. Oh wait, I want

15:01

to jump in here. Biden picked Harris.

15:03

Wait a minute. I think that... Richard

15:05

Nixon picked her own Agnes. Yeah, true.

15:08

I want to jump in here though

15:10

and defend Van Quayle, which like whoever

15:12

does that. At the time,

15:14

and I remember where

15:17

I was when my parents

15:19

staunch Republicans were talking about how

15:21

excited they were that George

15:23

H.W. Bush, who was this boring weenie

15:25

of an older, you

15:27

know, kind of upper crusty guy

15:29

had picked this young, exciting, heartland

15:32

guy to be his number two.

15:34

No, you know, this is kind of an object

15:36

lesson in how things can go very badly

15:39

wrong. But at the

15:41

time, George H.W. really needed

15:43

a jolt of excitement. And

15:46

that's what Dan was supposed to supply.

15:48

He was not supposed to become the

15:51

butt of jokes and not know

15:53

how to spell potatoes or whatever. So

15:55

I just want to stand up for

15:57

Dan. I mean, speaking as someone who

15:59

literally... literally suggested that John McCain

16:01

should pick Sarah Palin in 2008.

16:05

I know- Damn, brother. I don't believe

16:08

I'd admit that. I know where- It was a joke.

16:10

It was a joke to pick. Listen, I,

16:13

speaking of political conventions, I remember getting on

16:15

the plane from the Republican

16:17

convention the night after Palin gave

16:19

her first big speech, which was

16:21

a huge hit, and

16:23

some nice liberal Democratic woman was on her

16:25

cell phone in the row in front of

16:27

me, and she was like, I can't believe

16:29

they're going to do it to us again.

16:32

There was 48 hours, maybe even 96 hours

16:36

there, when Sarah Palin was the

16:38

best vice presidential pick anyone

16:40

had ever made. And- Oh

16:43

my God, and on that note, I can't think of

16:45

a better way to say- I

16:47

can see Russia from my house? No,

16:49

but- That was the same.

16:53

The Palin nomination, in hindsight,

16:55

is really, really significant in

16:57

American politics, right? It's

17:00

interesting. We've been talking about

17:02

the vice presidents who won, right,

17:04

about the winning tickets. Palin

17:06

is one of- is perhaps- this is also

17:08

recency bias, but Palin may be one of the most

17:10

consequential losing vice presidential picks in

17:13

recent memory, in part because she

17:15

legitimized a kind of like proto-Trump

17:17

style of politics that would come

17:19

to dominate the right. Palin

17:22

was like John the Baptist to Donald Trump's orange

17:24

shoes. Oh my God, why must- no, do not

17:26

bring God into this. That

17:29

V-pick feels really, really consequential. Oh no,

17:31

on the- no, we are cutting this

17:33

off because Carlos has brought the

17:35

Bible into Sarah Palin discussion. We're going

17:37

to take a break. Sarah

17:40

would do that herself, were she with us.

17:43

And that does not make it right. On

17:45

that snack religious note, when we come back, we're

17:47

going to take a look at the folks auditioning

17:49

for that number two slot. I

17:52

had a whole thing about how Jimmy Carter picked Mondale.

17:55

I brought his White House memoir. You did

17:57

not bring the book. Jimmy Carter

17:59

went through- You know what, I'm going to smuggle it

18:01

in to the next segment. Fine! Jimmy Carter went through

18:03

a fantastic process. Right, save it, save it, save it. Ha

18:06

ha ha! Ha ha ha. Ha

18:10

ha ha. Oh

18:13

yeah! Hey,

18:18

it's Anna Martin from the New York Times.

18:21

And I'm here to tell you about something

18:23

for New York Times News subscribers called New

18:25

York Times Audio. An app

18:27

where you can get the latest in news,

18:29

culture, cooking and more. It

18:32

has exclusive shows, storytelling from cereal

18:34

productions, and this American woman's favorite

18:36

sports from The Athletic and narrated

18:38

articles from The Times and beyond.

18:41

New York Times Audio. Download

18:43

the app at nytimes.com/audio app.

18:53

All right, we're back. We

18:55

have chewed over what makes a good Veep candidate

18:57

and a not so good one. Now

19:00

we're going to start naming names. And here

19:02

I feel like I need to throw in

19:04

the caveat that the Republican nominee has not

19:07

been chosen. It ain't over. The fat lady

19:09

hadn't sung, yada, yada, yada. But the

19:12

GOP base loves it some Trump and

19:14

he has been dominating the primary for

19:16

months. So we have to prepare ourselves

19:18

emotionally for the strong possibility that he is

19:20

going to be on the top of the ticket.

19:24

And for obvious reasons, he will not be

19:26

bringing Mike Pence along with him this time

19:28

as his dance partner. So

19:30

with the understanding that nothing is definite, we're

19:32

going to assume Trump is going to be the standard

19:34

bearer. And we want to talk about

19:37

who we think he's going to tap as

19:39

his understudy this time. Boy, that was a heavy

19:41

sigh from Carlos when you said we're going to

19:43

assume that. No, I just. Carlos.

19:45

No, no, no. I'm going to cheat.

19:48

I'm going to cheat. Far be it for me

19:50

to get into the head of Donald Trump. It's a

19:52

very turbulent place. But but listen, all I can do,

19:54

I'm going to lay out like just

19:56

a few of his tendencies and then you can help me

19:58

figure out who fits that. is

22:00

becoming president again, which, you know, is a big if.

22:02

Turns out, I think that actually might work for him,

22:04

but that wouldn't have been my sort of strategy to

22:07

stay out of jail just in general. But, you know,

22:09

let's just go with that. To each his own. You start

22:11

from where you are, Lydia. Exactly. But

22:13

if his goal is to actually

22:15

win the presidency, then there's really

22:17

only one person he should pick, and that

22:19

person is Nikki Haley. I don't think

22:21

that he necessarily will pick Nikki Haley,

22:24

but the argument for it is,

22:26

I think, and pardon the pun,

22:28

unimpeachable. If he wins

22:30

the nomination, what's he going to need to do? He's

22:32

going to need to reassure people

22:35

who are on the edges of his

22:37

political coalition that he's okay. And I

22:39

think Haley helps him telegraph,

22:41

like, I'm okay. Normal people want

22:43

to be around me and want to

22:45

be part of my administration, if you

22:47

consider Nikki Haley normal. I think

22:49

it could really help diffuse abortion as

22:52

an issue, because I think the two of them together could

22:54

say, look, we agree with the

22:56

Supreme Court that this should be decided by the states.

22:58

You know, they could also change their minds later, and

23:00

that would be fine, because that's the way that our

23:02

politics work. There's a question about

23:04

whether she would actually take the role, but

23:06

I think... No, there isn't. Yeah. I mean,

23:09

she's like a craven opportunity. There is 1,000%

23:11

no question about whether she would take the

23:13

role. Doesn't the base hate Nikki Haley? I

23:15

don't think it matters. The base hates Nikki Haley. You don't

23:18

need to show up the base with this one. But they

23:20

love, love, love Donald Trump. They don't matter. Brock, I'm

23:22

assuming that you do not agree with this. No,

23:24

no, I completely agree with Lydia. Do

23:26

you? I mean, not... No, I don't... Well, I

23:28

don't... You think that's who he's going to go

23:31

with, not who he should go with. No, I

23:33

think it's an airtight argument. Thank you, Ross, for

23:35

validating it. I think it is a strong argument.

23:37

I don't think it's like one... You know, not

23:39

like take it to the bank, but yes, Trump

23:42

has always liked one,

23:45

getting people who have been his rivals to bend

23:47

the knee. Now, this is like a complicated situation

23:49

where Haley bent the knee and then broke from

23:52

him. And, you know, she'd be bending the knee

23:54

again. Up and down and up and down. But

23:57

that's fine, right? Part of

23:59

Trump always... always wants to be

24:01

in the good graces of the mainstream

24:03

media, even though that's sort of hard

24:05

to imagine from his actual behavior that

24:08

that is still there in him. He

24:10

definitely wants to win the election. The

24:13

fact that he picked Pence as

24:15

opposed to one of his flunkies and

24:17

toadies and yes men, even though Pence,

24:19

you know, sort of remade himself as

24:21

a yes man, showed that he can

24:23

think strategically about these picks. And

24:26

you know, there might be someone else in

24:28

the kind of like, you

24:30

know, establishment moderate zone besides Haley,

24:32

but Haley is the one who

24:34

has brand recognition at this point.

24:37

And also people like I would not

24:39

be reassured by Trump picking Nikki Haley.

24:41

I haven't written my anti Nikki Haley

24:43

piece yet, but I have

24:45

give us a preview. I mean, I

24:48

think I think Nikki Haley is a

24:50

dangerous warmonger who would, you know, bring

24:52

some of the worst tendencies of George

24:55

W. Bush's presidency into an administration that

24:57

she influenced. Get Cheney in heels. I'm

25:00

not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna. You're

25:02

not gonna parrot Zivak? I'm just saying I

25:06

would not want US foreign policy and

25:08

Nikki Haley's hands at this particular juncture

25:10

in history. That is my

25:12

concern. But I thought that would keep Trump

25:14

from naming her. I endorse Lydia's logic. So

25:17

this is the window into Trump's thinking that

25:19

I am fascinated by because I agree

25:21

with all of that logic. That

25:24

said, I'm also interested in how

25:26

it butts up against Trump's loyalty

25:28

issues. And there is there is a

25:30

difference between kind of mildly annoying him

25:32

and say running against him as Ron

25:34

DeSantis can tell you who has become, you know, public

25:37

enemy number one of sorts in Trump world. Also,

25:41

there's the possibility that

25:43

she would outshine him on

25:45

certain occasions, which he cannot

25:48

abide. So the

25:50

Mike Pence pick may have convinced him

25:52

that he should just tell everybody to

25:54

start off who wants him to

25:57

go in the strategic direction because that was

25:59

such a. They

30:00

think even what happened, like does the

30:02

Mike Pence example not disturb any

30:04

of these folks? I mean

30:07

risk of death is part of being

30:09

in politics, right? I mean it's a...

30:11

No, I mean specifically about getting hanged.

30:13

It is high risk in a way

30:15

that obviously a more normal vice presidential

30:17

role isn't. But it's

30:20

also a rare case where you'd be

30:22

joining a president who would be a

30:24

lame duck like, you know, well,

30:27

I know probably there is the like... Trump

30:29

is going to be a dictator and you know run

30:31

for a third term and so on scenario and I'm

30:34

sure we'll get to that in a future episode. Assuming

30:37

for the sake of argument that Trump is

30:39

in fact not going to be president three

30:41

times, then as

30:43

soon as he's elected, you know,

30:46

we'll be starting to talk about 2028 and

30:50

whoever is his vice president will have a unique...

30:52

Well, no, I mean, yeah, he may sabotage that

30:55

person, but they will still have an opportunity.

30:58

Most vice presidents come in and it's like

31:00

eight years to go till you can be

31:03

your own person. That's not going to

31:05

be the scenario here at all. I know, but I do

31:07

wonder like he so hates

31:09

the idea that he

31:11

isn't singular. He would

31:14

legitimately sabotage, kneecap his own

31:16

vice president just to prove no one else

31:18

could do it. That is true. Very

31:21

early in a second Trump

31:23

administration, he will begin

31:25

the drumbeat that he should be

31:27

allowed to run for another term

31:29

because his first term was sabotaged

31:31

and foreshadowed by the Mueller investigation,

31:33

by all the rest. So

31:36

the first term doesn't count and

31:39

I like this is not I'm not I'm not

31:41

being funny. Like this is like the most predictable

31:43

thing in the world. But also like depending

31:45

on how things go at the Supreme

31:47

Court, he could dispatch SEAL Team Six

31:49

to assassinate his vice president if they

31:52

got... That was not at the

31:54

Supreme Court. No, I know. I'm saying

31:56

that it'll eventually that argument will

31:58

eventually be made to... when

34:00

one of us gets our temperature taken. Which

34:03

sounds way weirder than I meant it to.

34:05

But not. But who's going to get the

34:07

hot coal this week? I

34:10

am a hot little potato this week.

34:12

See, go with it, Carl. Yeah, with

34:14

an E at the end. Alternate selling

34:16

potato. Thank you, Dan Quayle. So first

34:18

of all, I have to start with

34:20

a question. What were you all doing

34:23

Monday night of this past week? Oh,

34:25

god, I know where this is going. Monday. You

34:28

see, I, like a real American,

34:30

oh, you were watching football. Was

34:32

sitting on my butt with Tostitos

34:34

and salsa watching the college

34:37

football national championship. Pulling for Michigan? No,

34:39

I was not pulling for Michigan. As

34:41

a proud graduate of the University of

34:44

Notre Dame and a devoted fan of

34:46

the Fighting Irish, I officially hate Michigan.

34:49

But I still congratulate them on their

34:51

victory. Hail to the cheaters.

34:53

So. Oh, blue. Shots fired.

34:55

I used to teach a class for the Michigan

34:58

and Washington program. I have lots of former students

35:00

who are Michigan alums, and they're terrific. But

35:03

all that to say is that I've been a college

35:05

football fan for about more than three

35:07

decades now. And in that span, I have

35:09

been subjected to super

35:12

weird and super random ways to determine

35:14

who won the championship that year. When

35:16

I first became a fan, we had

35:18

the bowl system. And

35:21

different conference champions have to play in different

35:23

bowls, which meant that sometimes the best teams

35:25

wouldn't play each other at the end of

35:27

the year. And then the Associated Press poll

35:30

told us who the winner was, which struck

35:32

me as a little absurd. Then it got worse.

35:35

Then there was the bowl championship

35:37

series, which was this complicated

35:39

formula that would

35:41

spit out who were the top two teams

35:44

to play each other at the end of the

35:46

year. Then it got slightly better, but still bad.

35:49

When this secretive committee

35:52

gathered and every week released a poll of the

35:54

top 25 teams, and in the end, the

35:57

top four teams would play in the semifinals. the

36:00

two winners in the final. So

36:02

I am cold on all of

36:04

those prior systems and I am reasonably hot

36:07

on a new system that will begin next year

36:10

which is the four-team playoff is being

36:12

expanded to a 12-team playoff that still

36:14

involves you know the conference champions and

36:16

still involves the rankings but will give

36:18

12 teams a

36:21

chance to compete for the championship at

36:23

the end. This may be partially colored by

36:25

the fact that Notre Dame has a better shot.

36:28

I will admit

36:32

that truth but with all these weird

36:34

things happening in college athletics these days

36:37

I am actually somewhat

36:40

cautiously optimistic hot

36:42

on the 12-team playoff that

36:44

will begin in college football next year. Ask me

36:47

in a year. Can

36:50

we ask them to sort out the way

36:52

that we elect presidents because it sounds like it

36:54

sounds to me like the electoral college. I would

36:56

love to see a 12-team playoff. Stick

37:02

to sports. There you go. There you go. Guys

37:04

I'll see you on the other

37:06

side of Iowa. Oh

37:09

wow. Happy Iowa. Watch out for those popcorn

37:11

fields. Was that a song by like Credence

37:15

back in the day? Let's

37:17

just say I will be your vice president Michelle.

37:19

I will I will eat meat on a stick anytime.

37:22

There should be more meat on sticks. Many

37:30

thanks for listening folks. If you had a good

37:32

time give Matter of Opinion a follow on your

37:34

favorite podcast app and while you're there go ahead

37:36

and leave us a nice review. Also

37:39

we love hearing what

37:41

questions you want to hear

37:43

discussed so send your ideas

37:46

along to matterofopinion at nytimes.com

37:48

or leave us a voicemail by calling 212-556-7440. Matter

37:55

of Opinion is produced by Phoebe

37:57

Lett, Sophia Alvarez-Boyd, and Derek Arthur.

38:00

It was edited by Alison Brucek. Our

38:03

Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary

38:05

Marge Locker, and Michelle Harris. Original

38:08

music by Aseem Shapiro, Carol Saburo,

38:10

and Pat McCusker. Mixing

38:13

by Pat McCusker. Audience

38:15

strategy by Shannon Musa and Christina

38:17

Samuelski. Our executive

38:19

producer is Annie Rose Strasser. Music

38:30

by Aseem Shapiro,

38:32

Carol Saburo, and

38:34

Pat McCusker.

38:40

Carlos, you have been so patient. Would you

38:42

like to give us your story about Jimmy

38:45

Cruder picking his VP? So

38:48

why yes. I mean thank you. I

38:50

don't know how you realize that. So

38:52

I recently read, I'm holding it up now.

38:55

I know this is audio, but... It's

38:57

such pretty blue. Having faith, Jimmy

39:00

Cruder's presidential memoir, it's the

39:02

worst of his many memoirs. But

39:04

anyway, Jimmy Cruder explains in great

39:06

detail how he picked Walter Mondale,

39:08

hashtag Minnesota Pride, for Lydia. And

39:12

it's a really good process. So first

39:14

of all, he was a governor,

39:16

so he realized I need someone with

39:18

congressional experience. So he started going

39:20

through Democrats on the Hill. He said if he

39:22

had his druthers, he just would have gone with

39:24

Senator Frank Church or Senator Scoop Jackson because

39:27

he was comfortable with them. He wanted to cast a wider net.

39:29

So he and his staff looked like 20 different

39:31

people. They ranked them, and

39:34

I'm going to tell you how. We ranked

39:36

them by their leadership ability, their voting record,

39:38

their attractiveness, not physical, their

39:40

attractiveness, two key constituency groups among

39:42

whom I needed help, their campaign

39:45

effectiveness, their experience, where my

39:47

own was limited, their geographical strength. The

39:49

overriding consideration was how a person could perform the

39:51

duties of president. He came up

39:54

with a bunch like John Glenn,

39:56

Ed Muskie, Adlai Stevenson, Pete Rodino

39:58

and Walter Mondale. he comes

40:00

down to Musky and Mondale. And

40:02

he chose Mondale, in fact, because Mondale

40:04

had a really good pitch. Mondale came

40:07

down to Plains and said,

40:09

Here's exactly how I want to make this

40:11

job be useful to you and productive for

40:13

the country. That whole

40:16

thing struck me as just

40:18

a very sensible, reasonable,

40:20

wide ranging process. Didn't go with his

40:23

initial gut, looked around, found

40:25

someone he was comfortable with. Wait,

40:29

Carlos, is

40:31

that the story? Ross! That's,

40:34

that's the, I mean, I love you. I love

40:36

you. No, it's a story. We're

40:39

like brothers. And as your brother, I'm going

40:41

to say that story does

40:43

not live on to expectations. It's a

40:45

process, have you not been listening? All

40:47

you're saying is that Jimmy Carter ran

40:50

a really responsible vice presidential. That's

40:52

the story? That's what? Why is

40:54

that wrong? I thought you were going to say

40:56

he got down on his knees and the Lord

40:59

Jesus appeared to him.