Phil Gustafson joins us to tell about his years as a pastor and his work in coaching spiritual leaders. We discuss taking risks in faith, neuro-linguistic programming, challenges faced by spiritual leaders, faith in the era of Covid-19, and more. Check out inlpcenter.org/coaching-for-spiritual-leaders/ to see more of what he offers.   This episode is brought to you by Make Pretend: The Complete Short Fiction of Armand Rosamilia volume one.