Are mermaids fish or mammals? Join Dr Chris Buddle and Dr Ollivier Dyens of McGill University, along with Dr. Sylvia Gilbertson from Hacksford University, department of cryptozoology, and our very special guest, Mermaid Claudia, to discuss this important and controversial topic.

A playful conversation to discuss serious issues such as environmental degradation, taxonomy, our need for authority over nature, etc.

With Claudia Raihert, Viola Ruzzier, Chris Buddle and Ollivier Dyens

Episode Transcript:

Introduction: This is not a race against the machines. This is a race with the machines. From quantum physics to poetry, from neuroscience to geography, from philosophy to immersive realities, Building 21 is a space where one can explore, play with, manipulate, bend, break, and probe the multi-faceted dimensions of ideas, knowledge, and thinking.

Are mermaids fish or mammals? Join Dr. Chris Buddle and Dr. Ollivier Dyens of McGill University, along with Dr. Sylvia Gilbertson from Hacksford University, Department of Cryptozoology, and our very special guest, Mermaid Claudia, to discuss this important and controversial topic.

Ollivier: Alright everyone, welcome to another amazing Building 21 talk. This one will be really, really interesting, unusual, fascinating. It's about mermaids, and whether mermaids are mammals or fish, and I'm sure this question has been in your head for a very long time. It's pretty new to me, but I find it pretty interesting, and I have an amazing, amazing series of guests here. I'm joined by Associate Provost Chris Buddle. Chris, do you want to introduce yourself?

Chris: It's so great to be here and talk about this critically important topic. And in my past life as a biologist and ecologist, I've been interested in taxonomy for a long time, and I'm deeply interested in questions related to the evolutionary origin of various critters around the planet. So to me the question of...

Ollivier: Is a mermaid a critter?

Chris: Critter. Well, okay, large critter. I am interested in small critters and large critters in the ocean or elsewhere, so yeah, let's have a good chat about it.

Ollivier: Alright, and we're very, very lucky today, Chris, to be joined by Sylvia Gilbertson. Why don't you introduce yourself, Dr. Gilbertson?

Sylvia: Yes, so I'm a cryptozoologist at Hacksford University. Cryptozoology, in case anyone doesn't know, it's not a very well known field. Usually my colleagues study critters, to use your word, Chris, that are considered legendary or fictional, so often Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, those kinds of beings that we know so very little about. But I've decided to study something a bit more general, so mermaids as a general species, I guess you would say, a group of creatures that are yet to be fully defined.

Ollivier: Alright, and we're also extraordinarily lucky to actually have a mermaid with us. Her name -- I think her human name is Claudia, Dr. Gilbertson?

Sylvia: Yes, at least that's how she's been introduced to me.

Ollivier: Okay, and I think it would be a bit too complicated for us to explain the setup that we have here, so that Claudia is able to speak to us in a safe and productive way. But Dr. Gilbertson, we do have some sort of a translator that your students have built.

Sylvia: Yes, exactly. There are some very ambitious engineering students at Hacksford that have created this contraption to basically translate what normally would be very difficult to understand.

Ollivier: And for those who are not familiar with Hacksford University, it's located where again?

Sylvia: In Vermont.

Ollivier: In Vermont! In Vermont. Okay, so our Mermaid Claudia, welcome. Welcome to Building 21.

Claudia: Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here.

Ollivier:  No, well, the translator works pretty well. It's actually better than Stephen Hawking's. So why don't we start? Because to me it's really an interesting question, are mermaids mammals or fish? Chris, in your previous research, these kind of questions pop up all the time, I'm sure.

Chris: They do. And you know, often one question we say to ourselves is what is this? Humans have such an interest in classifying and collecting and putting names on things. And when we're thinking about mythical creatures, that's an obvious question. What is Bigfoot? What is a mermaid? But I actually think it's the wrong question. I think the right question is what was Bigfoot or what was mermaid? And I think that's an area to me that's almost more interesting than what is. 

Ollivier: So Dr. Gilbertson, why don't you tell us a bit about your research? And I think you also had an interesting discussion about whether mermaids were mammals or fish. So why don't you give us a bit of a summary of all this? 

Sylvia: Yes, so first of all, as he said, I was very honoured, very happy to be able to have a conversation here at Building 21. A couple of weeks ago, I believe. And yeah, it was a very fruitful, very interesting discussion. It was the first conference of Matterless Matters. 

Ollivier: One of our students actually created it. Her name is... 

Sylvia: Yes, Viola Ruzzier. Yeah no, great student. And yes, it was a really interesting discussion. We came up with a number of theories, or rather the students did. Of course, I have my own personal theory, I’ve been working on this for a very long time. But it was interesting to hear everyone's point of view. 

Ollivier: And anything you can tell us about the actual lives of mermaids? Then we can maybe ask Claudia to tell us a bit about her day-to-day interaction with the world. But Dr. Gilbertson, why don't you tell us a bit about what do mermaids actually do? How do they live? All of these things? 

Sylvia: So because of their nature, they're very hard to study, but from what we've understood so far, we know roughly what they look like. They are at least humanoid, human looking in the top half, and look kind of like either a fish or marine mammal, which was a very important point in the conversation, which one of those two it was. They spend a lot of time in the water, obviously. They seem to be able to hold their breaths or to breathe underwater, definitely, at least based on the media portrayals that we've seen. And one of the main characteristics we know is that, at least in the past, when sailors were more isolated from the world, the mermaids would come up to the surface and sing of their ambitions and their dreams, and would often lure them to their presumably deaths, or dooms in any case.Which, you know, it's a question of culture and things that's hard to judge really how it works. And yeah, so then otherwise, the main physical characteristics of a mermaid: they have hair, or at least something that resembles hair on their top half. Then what's really interesting is their tails, actually, and this is one of the main sticking points of the argument, is that they've got tails that are covered in scales. And this would make them seem like a fish. However, the plane of their tail is that of a mammal. So, whales and dolphins have tails that kind of flop up and down, whereas fish have them that flop from side to side. And the reason that mammals, that aquatic mammals have them that go up and down is because it's the same structures that land animals have for galloping that allows them to move them this way. And that's part of the reason why we kind of know that whales and bears, for example, are related. Yeah, so a lot of characteristics, a lot of behavioral traits made it really hard to classify for a while. 

Ollivier: So, Dr. Buddle, is that common in the critters’ world that some species seems to have characteristics of two different, is it genus? 

Chris: I mean, we think of how animals or plants, for that matter, are kind of built, and there's structural elements that are easy to identify, but we're very biased as humans. So, we look at things in terms of external characteristics and similarities and differences. But there's all kinds of examples in nature of mimicry, for example, where one species looks like another, but is completely unrelated. Or situations where there's been convergent evolution, where there's a particular trait that's useful, and fins are a great example of that. A fin of a whale, or a shark, or a tuna fish, serve a similar purpose in movement through water, even though if you think of a whale's evolutionary history compared to a tuna fish, it's completely different. So, it's very, very common to have traits that we, as human observers, with our own faulty view of things, will make generalizations based on what we see in characteristics, but you have to go deep into the study, whatever it is you're looking at, to understand the evolutionary relationship, which can explain the ancestor, and then also whether the trait that we're looking at is convergent evolution, whether it's just a byproduct of something else, in terms of, you know, it's not necessarily for X, Y, or Z, but that's what it looks like to us. So all these kinds of questions, I think, are really central to this conversation, and I appreciate the explanation about the fins of a mermaid, because that, to me, is very strong evidence of the relationship from mermaids to other animals. 

Ollivier: So, let's do a side conversation here, because we have an exceptional guest with us, and we need to let her speak for herself a bit. But Claudia, as a mermaid, you've often been represented in human representation as, you know, a bit of man's fantasy. Dr. Gilbertson told us, of course, that mermaids seemed to have historically actually attracted men to kill them and eat them. More recently, you've been represented in commercial movies as a cute, fuzzy, but still very cute, female-like character. So, what do you think of your actual representation, and which one seems to be closer to reality? Are you actually man-eaters, or are you actually just a representation of man's fantasies? 

Claudia: Well, to start, it is true that we are human-eaters. We do not discriminate between male and female humans, but sailors used to be male mostly. So, we mostly ate sailors. I think that it is rather sad that sailors really believe we are attractive when, in fact, we try to lure them. Therefore, there is some sort of epistemological sadness that arises when I consider my relationship to my prey. 

Ollivier: So, let me turn to you, Dr. Buddle. This sort of inability to understand that relationship we have with predators, is that common in the sense that we give them attributes that are very different from the predator's original intent?

Chris: Oh, absolutely. I mean, we think of the kind of romantic view and Disney-esque view of the natural world, where, in fact, you know, the way that we place our emotions on others is really what we're, I think, what we're seeing here. Humans have developed stories about mermaids based on our own perception and our own interactions, but what Claudia just said is just so insightful. It's actually not about whether like or dislike it's about food. And if we really break it down to the very most simple as part of Maslow's hierarchy and what do we need as a species, as a human species, we think of shelter, food, etc. Well, from an evolutionary perspective, from a mermaid, what do they need? Well, food. How are you going to get it? The most efficient way possible. That's what the product of natural selection is, efficiency. And if it happens to be in the form of flowing hair with whatever the prey is on the boats, then that's what natural selection will select for. As long as there's enough variation in the gene in mutation rates that you get that, great. So it's not about emotion. So that's what I thought was interesting about Claudia's answer. I wonder if I could ask a question of Claudia. May I? So let me ask this. So when you – there's so many questions that we don't know about the biology of mermaids, I appreciate that. But one question I have is about whether or not, well, do you live bear your young? That's actually my question. The reason I ask that is because we need to get clues around the biology to help us understand the fundamental question. So when we look to mammals or fish or – what are the water characteristics of mammals, for example? There's also some live-bearing fish, I should say. So maybe I'm running into a bad example there. But can you give us any more insights into what your life is like? You know, I guess that's my question. The biology or your biology. 

Claudia: Thank you for your question, Chris. This question is a little worrisome for us merfolk. We are very comfortable with our ambiguous identity. And this ambiguity is currently threatened by scientific studies and efforts to concoct a classification. We merfolk haven't asked to be classified. This is also why I must keep any potential information that might guide your answer to the mermaid question strictly confidential today. 

Ollivier: Okay! So… 

Chris: I struggle with that, but I respect it. 

Ollivier: Yeah, I know, it's like, it's sort of, it's always a problem with scientific research, right? There's the ethical dimension of the scientific research. And for once we also have a, you know, sort of in between animal and humans. So whether they fit within the ethical research paradigm is also the question. So let me turn to you, Dr. Gilbertson. That question that Claudia, for the reasons we understand, wasn't willing to answer. What is your take on whether merfolks, I believe that's the right term, are fish or mammals? 

Sylvia: Yes. So, well, after a long and interesting conference a few weeks ago, the most accepted theory – so far we only have theories because well, as Claudia pointed out, there's a lot of ethical concerns and we want to make sure to respect any boundaries from the stakeholder community. But the theory that got most accepted was that mermaids are actually fish and that essentially what we consider the human half is little more than a lure, something akin to an angler fish. So angler fish, just to explain for those who don't know, are those fish that have the little antenna with the light, essentially, at the end to attract their prey. And what most people seem to agree with, although I must say, it was far from being unanimous, was that the top half is a kind of human-esque shaped lure that behaves differently according to the pressure. So when mermaids are far down, there's a different pressure that acts on them. So it doesn't look like very much and then as they rise to the surface, it kind of inflates. And what we think is that this lure is actually some modified swim bladder that also, impressively, has a vocal apparatus inside that allows them to make these sounds that we consider singing. And of course, then the main question is what about the tail that we were talking about earlier because if they're fish, it wouldn't make sense for them to have the same structure as mammals. But actually, that's explained if we consider that they're fish and that they only need to act more mammal-like in the presence of humans, when they're on the surface. So actually, what we currently believe is that when they're in their natural habitat, when they're further down, they swim with their tail side to side. And it's only when they get to the surface that they twist 90 degrees so that it looks like their tail is flopping up and down, because the lure is constructed also kind of 90 degrees – well, you can't see any of my hand gestures, we're on a podcast. But essentially, the lure is constructed so that it's off by 90 degrees from the rest of the body so that when they want to look more human, more like the mermaids that we generally consider in popular media and literature, then the planes match up. 

Chris: Respectfully, I... 

Ollivier: It's not Occam's razor.

Chris: I feel It's acrobatic evolutionary thinking here. I mean, it's not Occam's razor, it's not the most parsimonious explanation. Which to me is why my own belief is that they're mammals because of some of the very, very obvious signals that we get with respect to how we understand that merfolk behave. So I find it an interesting explanation and interesting hypothesis. I think what it requires is deeper study and including proper, sort of evolutionary treatment of merfolk. But we may not get there, based on Claudius' answer earlier, which I fully respect. But it's an interesting explanation, but I do find it not as plausible as the more simple explanation, which is one of the foundational pieces around thinking of taxonomy as what is the most simple explanation for complex patterns. 

Ollivier: So, a question to you both. What would be a common ancestor if they’re mammals or even if they're fish? What would be a common ancestor? Would they share an ancestor, Dr. Buddle, with whales and other sea mammals? 

Chris: I think that's the most logical explanation, but we'd have to study. I don't know. That sounds like a typical scientific answer, but I would say that there's a lot under the ocean we haven't studied yet. So, I think there's a broader question about what we actually need to study and how we can really broadly look at the relationship among marine mammals to other kinds of aquatic animals and really do a deep dive into that. I don't think we know enough. 

Sylvia: Yes, absolutely. As Dr. Buddle said, further research is always needed in any kind of scientific question. And especially in one such as this, we hope to eventually gain enough the trust of merfolk that they’ll let us study them a bit more. But in the meantime, obviously, we respect that. And, yeah, I would say, well, for my theory, I would imagine that we have a common ancestor but a very, very, very long time ago before the, really the distinction of mammals and fish. 

Ollivier: What worries me with your conclusion, Dr. Gilbertson, as opposed to Dr. Buddle's conclusion – and I don't want to put too much pressure on you, Claudia, I think it's already a pressure-packed situation for you being here – but of course, we don't offer the same level of ethical protection to fish, than we do to mammals, right? So, we fish fish indiscriminately. We're much more careful with mammals, even though we're far from perfect in the way we treat them. So, let me ask you this, Mermaid Claudia. What do you think of your relationship with humans? You think you've been fairly treated? Do you think that the way we treated the oceans, the way we treated the environment is something that is disturbing to you and to your species? 

Claudia: Of course, it is highly disturbing, what is happening to the oceans. But we, merfolk, have had the privilege of eating humans instead of being eaten by them. 

Ollivier: Well, I'm still pondering about this myth of this very attractive and charming voice, but this aside, Dr. Gilbertson, do we hunt mermaids? 

Sylvia: Not anymore, definitely. I can't say for certain. They’re definitely an endangered species, not that many of them, as far as we know, so we're being careful of that now. We did hunt them at one point. There's even some museums that show, unfortunately, I'm sorry to say anything disturbing, but the corpses of some of these merfolk, and whether these are real or fake is up for consideration, but there has been some amount of, kind of, trophy hunting in some way. But I think, unfortunately for human sailors, usually the situation has been the other way around, where it really is the mermaids who managed to eat the humans rather than the other way around. 

Ollivier: Do we know why we hunted them? For resources, just for food? 

Sylvia: No, I think it was, you know, it's this mythical, beautiful creature that we don't know much about. Or mythical, I say in quotation marks, of course. And I think that was just enough of a reason, unfortunately, for some people to kill and hunt animals.

Ollivier: And again, I don't want to put Mermaid Claudia on the spot too much, but I've heard rumors that mermaids actually migrate, and they actually swim great distances from the Southern tip of Chile all the way to the Arctic. Migration’s always been a strange, interesting question. Why do different species migrate and why do they go so far? So, any historical reasons why Merfolks migrate that you can divulge? We do migrate every year, but now it's been more often. We typically choose waters where there are humans, but where the pollution is manageable for us. Yet this has become more and more difficult, which is why we now attack small villages and islands with vulnerable people. 

Ollivier: Wow, okay. Have you heard about this, Dr. Buddle?

Chris: I've certainly heard rumors of migration. Claudia, thank you. You've not wanted to share too much about your life habits and life history, but I think you've said something quite profound in that there's a severe and concerning impact that humans are having on the planet. And this is making things more difficult for you, even if I don't approve of your diet. It's certainly concerning. So this is quite a profound statement, that we've confirmed something directly from a mermaid around life history, but again there's migrating fish and migrating mammals, so it doesn't help us on that question. 

Ollivier: No, it doesn't. Dr. Gilbertson, in your 20 years of researching merfolk, you've written quite a number of books. Merfolks and Humans was actually a New York Times bestseller. I remember the documentary, actually, on PBS is very interesting. 

Sylvia: Yeah, they did a good job on it. I was pleasantly surprised. 

Ollivier: Yeah, and that's actually the first time I actually heard about you, and we invited you to Building 21. What is your conclusion or your thoughts, summary thoughts of this 20 years of research, the relationship, the way we treat merfolks, whether they're fish or mammals? As Dr. Buddle said, it says something about our relationship to this planet and the environment. 

Sylvia: That's a very good question. The general, at least personal conclusion, I’ve drawn from a long time studying the subject, is that there's just so little about the world that we really understand. You know, merfolk have been recorded by human historians for what, three thousand years, probably more? And we've known about them for such a long time, and yet there's still so very little that we know, and partly that’s due to, you know, kind of human blindness for a long time to anything that wasn't human. It's only relatively recently, at least in the Western world, that non-human animals, especially fish, plants or anything, have been considered as having the potential to feel pain, having the potential to have culture, having the potential to have any of these things. And so that's part of the reason we know so little about them. Part of the reason is, of course, that they're a rather closed community for very understandable reasons. And also part of it is just that there's so much to know about everything, you know, you can spend 20 years studying a subject and still only scratch the surface. And that's really been my takeaway, is that, as Chris said earlier, further research is needed, and that's always going to be the case. But I think the main thing is just that humans tend to… we tend to get very focused on a small part, and then we kind of lose track of the whole picture. And that's maybe something that, especially scientists, should learn to work on a bit. 

Ollivier: Thank you, thank you so much. So we rarely have the voice of one of our fellow species on this planet with us. So why don't we give Mermaid Claudia the final words here about what she wishes in her species relationship with our own species? 

Claudia: Thank you, Ollivier. I was hoping I would get this opportunity to speak my mind to fellow humans while not hunting them. I believe humans attempt to classify the world in an extensive manner because they are insecure. That is, they lack grounding. Lack of knowledge or understanding makes them feel vulnerable to their environment. Perhaps that's because humans, as they build larger and ever more complex societies, have lost sight of some of their instinctive database of knowledge. For example, I don't need to be able to predict that a threat is coming to be able to react quickly to it. However, for a large group of mermaids to react cohesively to a threat, a different kind of knowledge is needed about the state of affairs, a more precise kind. Precision and order require classification. Us merfolk prefer to live in smaller societies because our culture praises the value of instincts over the value of knowledge. I hope us merfolk can inspire people to see the world in a more fluid way. Order is good, but if we don't evade it from time to time, we miss out on all the fun. 

Ollivier: Thank you, Mermaid Claudia, that was very touching. Thank you for being here today. Thank you, Dr. Gilbertson. Thank you, Dr. Buddle. That was very illuminating, very Building 21-like. We will have another podcast soon. We will also be inviting some guests, some researchers who have done extensive research on zombies, and the whole specificity of zombies and how important they are to the ecosystem and the food chain. A bit like sharks, we tend to hunt them, but they are actually very useful for the ecosystem. But anyway, that will be soon. Thank you again Dr. Gilbertson, Mermaid Claudia, Dr. Buddle. This was a Building 21 podcast. Hope to see you soon. Thank you.