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You're listening to Melissa and Lori Love

0:02

Literacy . Is your

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district adopting a new English language

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arts or literacy curriculum , or

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have you just ever wondered how to tell if

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an ELA curriculum is knowledge

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building ? Well , today we'll

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be talking to Barbara Davidson and Sue

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Pimentel about a new curriculum review

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tool that can be found on the Knowledge

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Matters campaign website . They

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will walk through the different parts of the tool and

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explain how the tool can be used during

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a curriculum adoption process .

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Welcome teacher friend . I'm Lori and

0:36

I'm Melissa . We are two literacy

0:38

educators in Baltimore .

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We want the best for all kids and we know

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you do too , Our district

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recently adopted a new literacy curriculum

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, which meant a lot of change

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for everyone , lori and I

0:51

can't wait to keep learning about literacy with

0:53

you today .

0:58

Hi everyone . Welcome to Melissa

1:00

and Lori Love Literacy . Today we're so

1:02

excited because we're talking about a way

1:05

to review curriculum , something that everyone

1:07

seems to be talking about . These days ?

1:09

Absolutely , and we have two amazing guests

1:11

to talk about it . We have Barbara Davidson

1:14

, who we just had on in January

1:16

and she's the executive director of the Knowledge

1:18

Matters campaign and president

1:20

of the nonprofit standards work , and

1:23

returning guests from years ago , sue

1:26

Pimentel , who is co-founder of standards

1:29

work , and a million other

1:31

things that we could say about Sue

1:33

, but they will both talk to us today

1:35

about the Knowledge Matters review tool . So

1:38

welcome , barbara and Sue , thanks

1:41

Great to be with you guys .

1:43

Yeah Well , we're really excited

1:45

to dig into this tool . We know that it's a

1:47

new tool on the scene , on the literacy

1:50

scene , so we're wondering

1:52

how did the review tool

1:55

come to be and what need

1:57

was there for this in the market space ?

2:00

Yeah , I'll take that one for starters . It

2:03

really was the result of sort

2:05

of demand in the field , I would say . As

2:08

many of your viewers , listeners

2:11

, will probably know , we

2:13

stood up an

2:15

enhancement to the Knowledge Matters website

2:18

a year ago and in doing

2:20

so featured six now eight

2:23

curricula that we think do

2:25

a particularly fine job of building background

2:27

knowledge , these ELA curricula

2:30

, obviously . And

2:32

a lot of people asked us well , how did you make that decision ? I

2:34

mean , how did you arrive at those that you did

2:36

, and we thought that the website did a

2:38

pretty fine job of describing

2:40

that . We weren't

2:43

so much interested in picking winners and losers

2:45

. We were far more interested in

2:47

showing people what good looks like , what

2:49

it looks like and that it is possible and that it

2:51

is possible to both

2:53

build content knowledge and address literacy

2:56

skills , and

2:58

to do so with that . There are

3:00

a variety of ways in which publishers

3:03

might go about doing that . These

3:05

eight curricula now eight that we recognize

3:07

on the site and lift up and celebrate and ask

3:10

people to sort of study , as

3:12

good exemplars are very different

3:14

, and so that was

3:16

our purpose at that time . And

3:20

yet people still asked well , what

3:23

went into it and what criteria did you

3:25

use and who did that work and so forth

3:27

. So this is our way of being

3:29

more sort of explicit about

3:32

what we believe

3:34

goes into great

3:36

ELA curriculum that builds content knowledge along

3:38

the way and that is really puts

3:41

content knowledge sort of at the center of the

3:44

enterprise . So there was a

3:46

lot of demand , I would say . And then the second

3:48

reason that we decided it was

3:50

important to do is that as

3:52

the science of reading has

3:55

become more and more understood

3:57

and embraced and understood

3:59

to include the science about the

4:01

importance of building background knowledge , I

4:04

think that that has presented

4:06

an opportunity to really get

4:09

clear and

4:11

there's more demand to really understand

4:14

the connection between content knowledge

4:16

and reading comprehension . So we

4:18

felt that the field was sort of

4:20

interested in going deeper and

4:23

that's what we feel like or

4:25

what our hope for the tool

4:27

was .

4:29

Can I add to a couple of sentences to that

4:31

? So part of it is that

4:33

when you think about knowledge building and when teachers

4:36

think about knowledge building , almost anything we

4:38

read builds our knowledge . But

4:40

the problem is that it's more haphazard

4:43

and a curricula isn't necessarily built

4:45

to build knowledge and

4:47

so it becomes gosh

4:50

, I don't know . I guess it kind of builds knowledge , and a

4:52

lot of curricula say they build knowledge

4:55

and they don't

4:58

do it sustainably , and

5:00

so we wanted to be able to show a difference . The second

5:02

thing is that we know there are lots of review

5:04

tools out of there . We know ad

5:06

reports . Goodness sakes , they've been

5:09

important in the field in terms of telling

5:12

us what's HQIM

5:14

, but it's based on alignment to standards

5:16

. Now that's a really important part of the equation

5:19

, but it's not the full part

5:21

of the equation . So that's what

5:23

this tool is

5:25

meant to do is to be an add to and

5:27

and Barbara you might want to just talk a little bit about

5:29

, you know , because it

5:31

was Barbara's thought of what we aren't trying

5:33

to create something totally new that people

5:35

up to say , oh gosh , no , we just got to do it all

5:37

over them , but something they could add when

5:40

they're reviewing curricula .

5:42

Yeah , I don't know if you all want to ask something specifically

5:44

about that , but yeah

5:47

, this is . We consider this tool

5:49

in addition to a way

5:52

of really digging

5:54

into the , the , the reading

5:56

comprehension , the knowledge building piece , and

5:59

and that is why we explicitly left

6:02

out the foundational skills

6:05

.

6:06

We had a debate about that initially

6:09

, but Barbara convinced me . I really got

6:11

it and she was right . Go

6:13

keep going , barbara , about that if you want to .

6:15

We didn't want to suggest . I sort of worried

6:17

that if we included that , which is not to say that

6:19

those foundational skills aren't vitally important

6:22

. We're real , real clear about that . Our website

6:24

makes that clear . It all begins

6:26

there , and yet there are other good tools

6:28

out there that that do a pretty fine

6:30

job of of laying those

6:32

expectations out there . There

6:34

aren't tools that do as the important

6:39

job that we feel that this one does of

6:41

laying out and really driving

6:44

people's understanding and contributing

6:46

to the field's understanding of

6:48

what knowledge building is and and the

6:51

important science

6:53

that there is you know about , about that

6:55

as well .

6:57

Yeah , that's such a good point , and that's . I'd

6:59

love to go back to something that Sue said

7:01

and that before we dive into the tool

7:03

. Sue , you mentioned this idea of

7:05

random acts of knowledge , right

7:07

, that , and anytime we're reading something , we

7:09

are building now our knowledge

7:12

. But there's a difference between a

7:14

coherent knowledge build and

7:16

kind of like a randomized knowledge

7:19

build . So I'm wondering if you can kind

7:21

of elaborate on that , right , like what's the difference

7:23

between these random acts of knowledge and a knowledge building

7:26

curriculum ? Because on the knowledge matters

7:28

campaign site we do have eight uplifted

7:30

as knowledge building

7:32

curriculum and I'm just thinking if I were

7:34

a teacher listening right now I'd be like , well , what is the difference

7:36

between maybe what I have

7:38

not one of those eight and

7:41

those eight that are listed as knowledge

7:43

building curricula ?

7:44

So do you want me to start my room ? Then you

7:47

can get from there . So part of

7:49

it is a sustained

7:52

attention to a topic

7:54

. So you're reading several

7:57

texts on a topic . You're

7:59

building your knowledge about

8:01

the world right . It's not

8:03

based on a reading strategy

8:06

or the standard of the day

8:08

or whatever it is built on

8:11

. We're going to take two to three weeks , could

8:14

do more where we're really

8:16

going to deepen our knowledge

8:18

on a particular topic and

8:20

that means that we're reading about it

8:22

, we're writing about it , we're talking

8:24

to each other about it , we're

8:27

reading a volume of reading . So we're doing all

8:29

those things that are interconnected to

8:31

build our knowledge . And that's very different

8:33

. And I'd also draw the difference between topics

8:36

and themes . We've come down

8:38

heavily on topics because sometimes

8:40

you know you can look at a theme and

8:43

, first of all , not your kids get things , but

8:45

be that as it may . But

8:47

then you look at them and then there's

8:51

there's there . They're sort of big and loopy

8:53

and they stuff a lot of stuff in . So

8:55

one week you're reading about , you

8:58

know , photosynthesis , and the next week you're reading

9:00

about railroads , or you're reading about

9:03

, you know , coming of age or something like that . It's amazing

9:05

what they can stick on . So those

9:09

are , those are curricula that

9:11

mainly look at sort

9:13

of a reading strategy or a standards

9:16

that they're trying to get it . So this text

9:18

you can do use a standard with this text you

9:20

can use , and it's totally different when you're

9:22

dealing with a curricula that's been designed

9:25

for building knowledge . But I don't know if you

9:27

have anything you want to add to that now I think

9:29

that's great .

9:30

I mean it's it's really all about this

9:32

oral language

9:34

development and the need to build these

9:36

mental schemas so that students can

9:39

attach as

9:42

they're learning something new . It attaches

9:44

to something and

9:46

that , that , that , that that Velcro , that stickiness

9:49

that Marilyn Adams and

9:51

so many others have talked about , and and

9:53

that's how I mean students

9:55

learn , when more

9:58

, when they know something about the

10:02

topic and they can recognize

10:04

familiar vocabulary and so

10:06

forth . So we want to create that stickiness

10:08

and that doesn't happen when you're switching

10:10

from one topic to the next , when you're reading articles

10:13

on you know all

10:15

kinds of , whether

10:17

these , whether these articles

10:20

are put together primarily

10:22

to provide an

10:25

opportunity to , to focus on

10:27

a comprehension strategy , or if

10:29

they're just , you know , we're sort of thrown together for

10:31

whatever other reason . We want

10:34

to give students that

10:36

sort of assist , that opportunity to

10:38

become , to become experts and to begin

10:40

to make those create

10:42

those , those schemas in their , in their brains

10:44

. And so that's you know really

10:46

why these all of these

10:48

curricula , doing it

10:51

in different ways , obviously

10:53

, but lean on that

10:55

the importance of creating

10:57

that familiarity and building

10:59

, building knowledge . Not just . It's

11:01

certainly not and you all have talked about this well

11:04

in the past . It's not accessing knowledge

11:06

. It's building a content

11:08

, knowledge in the disciplines and

11:11

and with rich vocabulary

11:13

that is both academic and

11:15

domain specific and and create so

11:17

schemas in the brain and I don't want to leave out

11:19

the joy of learning .

11:20

I mean once , the last time I

11:22

heard from my grandkids a

11:24

strategy they learned , it's reading strategy

11:27

they learned at school or the standard they're working . Now

11:29

I hear about what they're reading about

11:32

, what they're learning about , so it's

11:34

partly that as well . And when you watch

11:36

kids go deep into a topic

11:38

, barbara does is done that through her knowledge

11:40

matters to read . It's amazing what you hear

11:42

students are able to share and

11:44

do and they love being an expert .

11:46

They love that and and

11:48

I think you know you all asked so , why

11:50

did we did this ? And I kind of jumped

11:53

over this . It became

11:55

, it became increasingly important

11:58

for us and I think Sue's gonna talk just a moment

12:00

here about what these domain , what is what is sort

12:02

of packed into these eight domains

12:05

. But it became increasingly important

12:07

for us to let

12:09

folks know that there are curricula

12:12

out there that are sort of wrapping themselves

12:14

in the knowledge flag and

12:16

and and and really aren't doing

12:18

that in this sustained way

12:20

, this sort of builds , those schemas , that

12:23

that that build

12:25

, build on knowledge

12:27

and and and

12:30

and do so for sustained , sustained period of time

12:32

in the way that these curricula do . So

12:34

that's that

12:37

was a concern that we have

12:39

, that as the importance

12:41

of background knowledge is better understood

12:44

and better valued , and that

12:47

review committees and others

12:49

are in state agencies

12:51

and so forth are saying it's important

12:53

that you have not , unlike back

12:55

in the day with the Common Core folks

12:57

, you know , putting slap in Common Core

13:00

, you know , on to onto a

13:02

book and saying that it is . We

13:05

didn't . You know , we wanted to begin

13:07

to distinguish those that at least we feel

13:10

are are in a different , in

13:12

a different league .

13:14

I was thinking the same thing , barbara , with the Common Core

13:16

aligned stickers , and then now

13:18

science of reading aligned right

13:21

, any any of the buzzwords that come out

13:23

? Yep , we see them all the time . So

13:25

, yeah , we do want to dig into the actual

13:27

tool now so people can get a better understanding

13:29

of it . Like you mentioned , barbara

13:32

, there's eight different . Are they domains

13:34

, dimensions , dimensions

13:36

, dimensions . Thank

13:39

you , sue , and I

13:41

wanted to really pause at number one because

13:43

when I personally read it , I you know

13:46

the title is laser , like focus on what matters

13:48

most for literacy , and I went to Lori and I

13:50

go what matters most for literacy ? Oh

13:52

my , like what does that mean ? That's

13:54

what ? That's a meaty statement

13:57

for dimension number one . So I really

13:59

was hoping we could spend a little bit more time probably

14:01

on that one and just kind of unpacking it for

14:03

us . So do you want to jump ?

14:05

in yeah , yeah

14:07

, yeah . So what

14:09

this is is

14:12

an initial SWAT

14:14

at bloated

14:16

and bulky curricula that include everything

14:19

in them , and we

14:21

know . So in choosing

14:23

curriculum , we want to say to people be

14:26

careful of the bulk in the bloat . But people will

14:28

also have to use a curriculum because

14:30

it's what they've purchased , it's what they have

14:32

. They aren't going to get another choice . Look

14:34

for these things , because we've we've talked

14:37

to people in districts that have one of

14:39

these basals and

14:41

you can find teachers that don't know what to

14:44

focus on or focus on stuff they used

14:46

to focus on , and so what we

14:48

did is we laid out and you'll

14:50

see here we know we don't have

14:52

the dimension of foundational skills . We

14:54

say foundational skills really important . Reading

14:57

complex text in the communal reading

14:59

, a complex text where students are working with

15:01

one another . Is there volume

15:03

of reading to build students

15:05

knowledge and their vocabulary , because

15:07

it's a great way to build , to build vocabulary

15:10

. And then making sure that students are

15:12

writing and talking about

15:14

what they're reading , because sometimes you can

15:16

see writing siloed or

15:19

you can see students are going to be taught , have

15:21

been in collaboration and it's all about how they're

15:23

collaborating with one other , but we want it to be about what

15:25

they're collaborating about . Then what this section

15:28

does is it says

15:30

and I say this as an

15:32

author of the common core

15:35

standards

15:37

are not curriculum , and don't just

15:39

pick one and

15:42

put that for the Tuesday

15:44

and Wednesday , move on . And there it shouldn't

15:46

be the focus of daily instruction . And

15:49

and and you all know , maureen

15:52

Melissa , better than anybody about how important

15:54

it is in literacy

15:56

to to have sort of a

15:58

holistic view so you're reading

16:01

and writing and talking , and you know

16:03

reporting on

16:05

what it is that you're reading , and so there's

16:07

a , there's a sense that we want people

16:09

to , yes , pay attention

16:11

to standards , because they do set out the complexity

16:14

, the sophistication , the challenge of what

16:16

you're supposed to be learning about , but

16:20

it doesn't say the how and

16:22

how to use

16:24

the standard . So we want to say careful

16:27

about the standards , because there's all this overaligned

16:29

to standards or overaligned to standards . And

16:31

then we take another

16:33

look at reading strategies . Again , huge

16:36

research base for reading strategies , really

16:39

, really , really important . But once you teach them

16:42

to kids , they should activate them when they're having

16:44

trouble . You don't activate them every single

16:46

day of your lives and every single time you're reading

16:48

. So much time is spent on that

16:50

. Now it's important because text

16:53

structure is one of those Like how is the information

16:55

coming to me ? Is it problem solution ? Is it

16:57

sequential ? What's going on ? Because then

16:59

I can begin to follow where the author is taking

17:01

me . But is that the purpose of the reading ? I

17:04

want to be able to learn from what we're reading . And

17:09

then the final criteria in that

17:11

section is just all about bulk and

17:13

load and it's also

17:15

about sustained attention on

17:17

a topic and how important that is . So

17:20

it's sort of the whole kittin' caboodle

17:22

. And then when you think about Melissa

17:25

, the ideas that we say are most

17:27

important , that have a substantial , formidable

17:30

research base to them . Each one

17:32

of those is taken on

17:35

in one of the next four or five dimensions

17:38

and it

17:40

deals with both what the standards say , because it's

17:42

important , what is the

17:44

complexity , but then it tells you how

17:46

, what the research tells

17:48

us , not just what Barbara and Sue

17:50

and Bara the Davises , but how

17:53

the research tells us to handle

17:55

those . So that's why it's so important that

17:57

any rubric you're looking at isn't

17:59

just about standards alignment , but it's also about knowledge

18:02

building .

18:03

I wanted to back up to one of those that you mentioned , sue

18:05

, which was the strategies , because

18:07

one of the things we've heard a lot for

18:09

pushback against

18:11

content-rich ELA is that they

18:14

don't focus on these reading strategies

18:16

and there is research behind it . Do

18:18

you want to just reiterate ?

18:22

I will , I will , I will and I'll say that once

18:24

students learn them , they

18:27

can use them . You don't have to keep

18:29

teaching them . And I

18:31

remember there was something that

18:34

Tim Shanahan and I communicated

18:36

about and he was saying you know , it

18:38

is a waste to

18:41

use reading strategies

18:43

on a text you're able to access and

18:45

understand . What good

18:47

readers do is they access the strategies

18:50

, like if I'm reading about physics , right

18:52

, I'm almost immediately

18:55

lost . So what do I have to do ? I have to kind of figure

18:57

out what's where's the author , how's the author taking

18:59

me , how's the author offering me this information

19:01

? Oh , here's a question I have

19:03

. Did the author here ? She answered that

19:06

earlier or later , or is it a question I want

19:08

to ask myself ? Those are things Once

19:10

you teach them , kids have got them

19:12

. Now you might , you might remind

19:15

students to use them , right

19:17

, and you may do do some more

19:20

teaching on text structure , right

19:23

With a particular

19:25

text that maybe you know you want students to

19:27

understand how the information comes from . All that's

19:29

legitimate and important to do

19:31

. But again , the reason

19:34

we read is to learn

19:36

stuff and I feel like for

19:38

decades you know

19:40

that we sort of got away from that

19:42

. It was like about the reading strategies , it was about

19:44

the standards , it wasn't about , well , what

19:46

am I actually learning ? And

19:49

I think that's one reason why you sometimes hear

19:51

kids say you

19:54

know reading , because it's

19:56

not about the joy of learning stuff

19:59

. Yeah .

20:00

I think . I think , oh , go ahead , barbara . It

20:02

just seems to me to be one of the really , really

20:04

important statements

20:06

in this review tool that

20:08

the curriculum is designed to

20:10

seamlessly integrate these practices

20:13

in reading , writing

20:15

, speaking , listening and facility with

20:17

language . And from my experience

20:19

in visiting over 40

20:21

, I think it's about 45 districts

20:24

across the country now over the five-year

20:26

history of the Knowledge Matter School Tour , that's

20:28

what these curricula do so powerfully

20:30

. Is that , yes , these

20:33

strategies are important but

20:35

absent guidance

20:37

from either good curriculum

20:39

or , you

20:41

know , knowledge of how to do it themselves , teachers

20:45

have been left to , you know , sort

20:47

of largely sort of focus on the standards

20:49

and the standards are in many ways

20:51

sort of statements

20:54

of strategies in many cases

20:57

and to try to figure out how to do that themselves

20:59

, whereas here you've got a , you

21:01

know , a professional team that's labored

21:04

for many years and

21:07

curated elegant , rich

21:09

texts with purpose and

21:11

this build over the years

21:14

and so forth and seamlessly

21:16

integrated those strategies

21:19

at the right place and in the right way . And

21:22

not , I mean , I have just great

21:24

empathy and

21:27

regard for the attempt that teachers

21:29

made in DIY , you know , do

21:31

it themselves , sort of curriculum development

21:34

over the years and taking the standards

21:36

and , you know , started working

21:38

back from there . But

21:40

this is done so much more subtly

21:45

but purposefully

21:47

and integrated

21:50

in appropriate ways , with the right sort

21:52

of dosage , I guess , if you will , but

21:55

with the premium , with the priority

21:57

, with the purpose being the

22:00

, you

22:03

know , the content , putting the content

22:05

in the foreground and really building

22:08

that knowledge over time .

22:10

Yeah , that's exactly what I was going to say , barbara . Is that like

22:13

what's in the foreground ? It's not that we're

22:15

getting rid of it . I mean , I don't even know what that would look like

22:17

if we totally got rid of strategies and

22:19

standards , like they just read a text and then write

22:21

what they knowledge , they built . I don't

22:23

think that's what any of the

22:26

knowledge building curricula do . I'm not familiar

22:28

with all of them , but what I've seen is like

22:30

you said , but really integrated and smart

22:32

, like use of . Okay , we're going to summarize

22:34

here because it's going to help you understand

22:37

what's happening , or let's talk about what the

22:39

theme of this text is , because this is

22:41

the time that it's going to help you

22:43

make sense of this text and what you learn

22:45

from it . So , so I think that that

22:48

makes total sense to me is that they're all still

22:50

there , but it's just that knowledge is

22:52

in the foreground . Standards , strategies

22:55

are helping .

22:57

And the connection to the writing too

22:59

and I know Sue will talk about this when she talks about

23:01

that dimension particularly but

23:03

it never ceases to

23:06

surprise me how

23:08

recent in our experience has

23:11

been , and probably in many cases still is

23:13

, the practice

23:16

of completely separating writing

23:19

instruction from what students

23:21

are reading and discussing . And

23:24

because when I talk with folks in

23:27

you know , out on the school tour

23:29

and and I think I

23:31

might have shared this with you all before , honestly

23:35

the first , when we start to

23:37

sort of interrogate

23:39

and ask interview educators like

23:42

what's the first thing that changed for you

23:44

? What did you notice , you know , even in

23:46

those first couple months , and they talk about the

23:48

writing and and then so we

23:50

tease that out a little bit and find out

23:52

that , you know , it's

23:55

not so surprising because kids

23:57

are writing about things that

24:00

they , that , they know , that they just that they just

24:02

learned , instead of it being , you know , later in the afternoon

24:04

on some prompts that has nothing to do with

24:06

what they're learning earlier

24:09

in the day . I

24:11

love the story of the little girl that

24:13

said to me , you know , when I asked her why

24:16

she you know she liked writing

24:18

so much more now than she did the

24:20

year before when they were using a different curriculum

24:22

, and she said she looked at me and said , well

24:25

, because now I have something to write about . You

24:28

know , anyway it's this integrated

24:30

. You know nature

24:33

of the work that is so important

24:36

about these curricula and that I think you'll see

24:38

sort of embedded throughout this tool

24:40

.

24:41

Yeah , I see that juxtaposition in the

24:43

field as well . I've been in classrooms

24:45

and teachers will say the same thing . Like

24:47

I noticed , students are writing so much more

24:49

and their writing is so much more powerful and cohesive

24:52

. But then I also hear

24:54

that same pushback of like oh , the

24:56

curriculum doesn't not in the same classrooms

24:58

usually , but the curriculum doesn't

25:00

teach writing explicitly

25:03

and I think it's because it is

25:05

like we've talked about

25:07

in the background instead of in the foreground

25:09

. And it's really difficult

25:11

if all we've known or all we've seen

25:13

in the past has been the traditional

25:16

basal types of curriculum that

25:18

we're unfamiliar with . These new

25:20

structures , right , like I've even heard . You

25:22

know the curriculum doesn't teach reading strategies , this curriculum

25:24

doesn't teach writing , all of these things . But

25:26

then when you , barbara , like you said

25:28

, when you kind of nail down , teachers

25:31

are like wow , the writing is

25:33

the biggest thing that

25:35

I see improve . And I

25:37

mean even personally my own daughter . When

25:39

COVID hit , I was working

25:41

with her at home using one of the high quality curricula

25:44

and she was in third grade and

25:46

her writing from then is

25:48

eons better than

25:50

it is now now in sixth grade with

25:53

a workshop model

25:55

, because she's not writing about

25:57

anything connected to reading . So

25:59

it's just these like stories , you know . And

26:02

when I look at the third grade stuff , I'm like , oh my

26:04

gosh , you were . Your writing was so

26:06

much better because it's you

26:09

have something to write about . You've become a

26:12

vocabulary expert on the topic . You

26:14

are implementing all of the cool skills

26:16

that you've learned because you don't have to

26:18

think about the content as much . Right Like

26:20

your brain is free to do that . So I think that's

26:22

like really important , that it just it's it's

26:25

different in how it's laid out , and

26:27

so just really encourage anyone listening

26:29

, like teachers , leaders , like really be detectives

26:31

here with this tool . Thank you .

26:34

Right , I love that you said

26:36

that , because that's the advice that I give to

26:38

folks too . I mean , when you really look

26:40

at and begin to sort of study these

26:43

eight dimensions , you'll see . Sue

26:45

uses the metaphor of sort of how it all gets

26:47

knitted together , and I really like

26:50

that because , yeah , you're sort of describing

26:52

the experience of , oh , it doesn't have strategies , it doesn't have

26:54

writing . That's because it's not being sort of

27:00

a separate thing that's taught in isolation

27:02

. But I remember the

27:04

first this happened to actually

27:07

be a Witten Wisdom the first visit

27:09

that we made to a district using the Witten Wisdom

27:11

curriculum , and they said , the

27:14

folks said we could never have

27:16

put this together as elegantly as

27:18

it was done here , and it's just

27:20

that sort of that knitting

27:23

that Sue talks

27:25

about . Anyway , sue , I'm

27:27

sure that we're ready for you to start to

27:29

talk about some of the other ones , right ?

27:33

You want me to do like a little whirlwind so

27:35

I'll take you through it

27:37

. It's really really quick because I know people can

27:39

look at it and say but just so you kind of understand what's there

27:41

and how it works together . So the

27:44

first one is about the communal

27:46

close reading of complex text

27:48

. Now in standards they've got complex text

27:50

, grade level complex text very important

27:52

to pay attention to . But what the tool

27:54

does is talks to you about what the research

27:57

says about repeated encounters . And

27:59

now what we're talking about is also

28:01

some sort of a sort

28:03

of a culminating assignment

28:05

which there's a lot of research about , is , once

28:07

I've read a lot and talked a lot , it's

28:10

really good for me to pull my knowledge

28:12

together and ask me to talk

28:14

to you about it or write to you about it , and really

28:16

important . So that's what one of the research says . So

28:18

again , this is going beyond the

28:20

standards into the research . Then we come

28:23

to we've talked about vocabulary and

28:25

how important it is

28:27

to have routines so that

28:29

it's built in . We talk some

28:31

because those standards deal with vocabulary really

28:33

important . But we also know one of the most important

28:36

things is that you don't just teach a

28:38

word with a definition that students

28:40

have to in context . Many things

28:42

in context you can play games into out of context

28:44

, but the students use the

28:46

vocabulary . You mentioned at Lori in the writing

28:49

that when your daughter was writing she was pulling

28:52

some of the vocabulary that she had

28:54

learned about that . That's how it gets stuck

28:56

in our brains . It doesn't get stuck

28:58

in our brain by just looking at oh , here's a word

29:00

and here's a definition . So again

29:02

, going beyond the

29:05

standards and the connection to reading . So when you're

29:07

, when you're learning vocabulary

29:09

, one of the best ways and fastest way to learn vocabulary

29:11

is to read a volume of reading which . What comes next

29:14

? Right ? So one and Barbara referenced

29:16

this earlier there's one text sort

29:18

of bootstraps the next text

29:20

, so that I'm reading in a context and

29:22

so I get . I'm sort of getting them , getting the vocabulary

29:24

and getting the syntax . Vocabulary may be expanding

29:27

, maybe a little bit different , but I understand

29:29

more so I can get more of the vocabulary which

29:31

becomes really , really important . And this is

29:33

a place to where we actually name

29:36

that . You should stay with a topic for two

29:38

to three weeks . We know

29:40

that's what students like to do

29:42

, it's what , it's how you can go , how

29:45

you can go deep , and then you want

29:47

to them talking about it , and here what we really

29:49

want to do is make sure that there

29:51

are lots of the curriculum

29:53

talks a lot about talking

29:57

together and building sort of a community of learners

29:59

. So goes beyond the standards . Again

30:01

, here's what you want to be as a good collaborator

30:04

, but here's what we want you to

30:06

do when , when you build

30:08

the knowledge and then writing . We've just

30:10

done that sort of in space about

30:13

how important it is to be able to do

30:15

that and the fundamentals of writing , which

30:17

we've talked about , but

30:20

again , those can be in the background , in

30:22

the context of your writing about what you're reading

30:24

. And so that takes us through

30:26

the content pieces . And then we have two

30:28

more . One of them is making sure that all students

30:31

have access to grade

30:33

level content . It sounds like a duh , but

30:35

it still is happening . In places you can use a

30:37

basil and do level reading and that's all you

30:40

do , and we've heard places that do

30:43

that because that's what they've done before . And

30:45

then this notion , of which I know there's a lot

30:47

more talk about now , about what's relevant

30:49

, sort of the , the mirrors , the windows

30:51

, the sliding doors really important

30:54

, not that students only read about themselves , but

30:56

they learn about others , but they also see

30:58

themselves reflected in their readings

31:00

, which which feels relevant and powerful

31:03

to them . And then the last one is

31:06

about ease of enacting curriculum . Now , if you ask

31:08

us about the eight that are there that

31:10

we have on the website , they're different and

31:13

, depending upon your , your

31:15

teaching staff and the turnover and everything else , you might

31:17

choose one or the other

31:19

, but what's really important is that

31:21

there are . You can watch , as

31:24

you know , as we dig into those curricula

31:26

to be able to write the little blurbs . You can

31:28

see that there are routines that

31:30

that come in and tick tick

31:32

and they're helpful to teachers , right , because you don't

31:35

have to teach something new each time . Students

31:37

get used to it . So they know when

31:39

they're going into a group to discuss what they're

31:41

going to do , you know , and when they're going

31:43

to write how they're going to do it , maybe they're going to talk about

31:45

it first , etc . So there are these routines

31:47

that are really helpful to teachers . And

31:49

then there's an educative part of it and

31:51

and and Barbara's done interviews

31:54

with , with folks that have taken

31:56

on a new curriculum how important it

31:58

is that they understand

32:00

the why , the why

32:02

of the how of what's being done

32:04

. That is not just okay . Here you do go

32:06

do a new thing , don't worry

32:08

about it . We're telling you now to do it . But

32:10

they actually explain the

32:13

why .

32:14

And that's the deal . I

32:17

think that's another really

32:19

important feature of these curricula that

32:22

I like to talk about and I think is

32:24

maybe undervalued

32:27

, and that is the extent

32:29

to which and so

32:31

we're inviting this is an invitation to those

32:33

who are reviewing curriculum

32:36

to consider and give weight to

32:38

because it's important the

32:40

fact that it's

32:42

not just a

32:45

design to advance student learning , but it's

32:47

designed to support and advance

32:49

educators'

32:52

understanding of the why and

32:54

how this knitting

32:56

, this very

32:58

sort of advanced level of knitting

33:00

, gets accomplished

33:02

. So there's some examples

33:05

of these

33:07

curricula include samples

33:09

of student responses , tips for

33:12

effective feedback , models of exemplary

33:14

practice , explanations of how program

33:16

elements facilitate student learning

33:19

, and so forth . So that is one of the other things

33:21

that we hear so often when we're out on the school

33:23

tour that teachers

33:25

will say that they things

33:28

like I was getting ready to leave , I

33:30

had about decided I was done , and

33:32

this has rejuvenated my passion

33:35

for teaching . Yeah

33:39

, no , I mean me too , Laurie . I mean

33:41

it's moving , and

33:44

so , in fact , on the Knowledge Matters website

33:47

, where we actually curate a number

33:49

of the videos that we have amassed

33:51

over these many different

33:53

school districts that we visited , you

33:56

can sort by benefit

33:58

Certainly

34:00

benefits for social , emotional learning

34:02

and academic progress

34:05

and student engagement

34:08

and equity and these kinds of things . But

34:10

we also have some of these teacher benefits

34:12

, professional satisfaction , opportunities

34:15

for collaboration and that

34:17

kind of thing . So I

34:19

think holding a curriculum

34:22

to that kind of expecting

34:25

that a curriculum can

34:27

support educators in being

34:29

better and better at their craft is

34:31

not an unreasonable thing

34:34

and in fact we feel

34:36

that these eight curricula that

34:38

we identify do that

34:41

quite well and that it is a reasonable

34:43

expectation of reviewing committees

34:46

to look for that .

34:48

And I just love the idea . The knitting idea is

34:50

sticking with me . I

34:53

just I think it's amazing because when I look

34:56

at all those dimensions , I still

34:58

see people who are asking

35:00

for a separate writing curriculum or a vocabulary

35:02

program and wanting those

35:05

separate . We did it Laurie's

35:07

been there too where we had our separate vocabulary

35:10

book and we did that at a different time . We did

35:12

our writing over here , and

35:15

so I just love hearing you all talk about the

35:17

way it's all knitted together and it comes together

35:19

, and all for this purpose of building

35:21

knowledge in the end .

35:24

You know , I think this is a nice opportunity for

35:26

me to to

35:28

acknowledge that

35:30

this tool was developed

35:33

by the three individuals , susan Pimentel

35:35

, meredith Leibn and David Leibn , who

35:37

really were the authors of the

35:39

publisher's criteria and

35:42

the , the instructional shifts

35:44

that were unveiled

35:47

and that so many educators

35:49

studied and suffered

35:53

over and really , you

35:55

know , sort of increasingly

35:58

made their own as this

36:00

shift in practice

36:03

, in the wake of the Common Core , occurred

36:06

, and I , as head

36:08

of the organization that has , you

36:12

know , is , is offering this to the world , thinks

36:14

of this as sort of the next chapter in

36:17

that work . And so it really

36:19

does represent Sue and Meredith

36:21

and David's evolution

36:23

, you know , and and and

36:25

contains their best sort

36:27

of thinking about how the standards

36:30

really do

36:32

show up and how

36:34

we should be expecting publishers

36:37

, you know , in the early days of the publisher's

36:39

criteria though well

36:42

, sue could probably speak to this , it'd be an interesting

36:45

, you know . They sort

36:47

of did the best , you know , the best

36:50

that they could and sort of discerning what it was going

36:52

to take for publishers to

36:54

achieve these standards . But

36:56

we've learned an awful lot since then and

36:59

we've seen how some publishers have been able

37:01

to do it and some of the

37:03

you know the things that have worked

37:06

and not in their , in their you

37:08

know next versions of

37:10

those curricula . And that really is

37:12

that , that learning , that observation , the

37:15

results of those some

37:18

, in some cases , experiments , in some cases , you

37:22

know , really , success is

37:24

sort of baked into this

37:26

tool , we think .

37:29

And you know I'm going to underscore just one point , because

37:31

we've done so much talking about the joy of building

37:33

knowledge , the importance of building knowledge , and

37:35

I don't know that . I know people

37:38

probably know this , but there's like 50 years of research

37:40

that says the more I know about the world , the

37:42

better reader I become , the better reader I

37:45

become , the more knowledge I can

37:47

access and learn . So they're they're

37:49

deeply , deeply intertwined

37:52

and so it

37:54

isn't . It isn't like well , all of a sudden

37:56

we all care about reading comprehension anymore , because

37:58

of course we do , and

38:00

knowledge is a pathway towards

38:03

it , a huge pathway towards towards

38:06

that . So I just wanted to put that out there , since

38:08

we've people have talked about sort of siloed

38:10

, or do you still care about what

38:12

kind of readers students like ? Yeah , that's

38:14

kind of . That's one of the whole points

38:16

, besides being great thinkers and and

38:19

knowing a lot about the world .

38:20

So this gives me a nice opportunity to

38:22

announce that Sue

38:25

and Meredith and David have developed

38:27

and we will be releasing

38:29

, probably later this month , not this

38:31

month , november , this month , december

38:35

a research compendium

38:37

. So for each of the criteria

38:40

that make up these eight dimensions , we

38:43

will be , you know , sort of annotating what

38:45

, where , the research for that

38:47

, for that claim

38:50

that , that expectation , that demand

38:52

that we should have of curricula

38:54

. You know why , why that's there , what

38:56

, what the research says about that .

38:58

So we're going to eat that up , we're going to

39:01

dig into that and bring

39:03

that . Bring that to our listeners for sure

39:05

. So

39:10

thank you for doing that . That's awesome .

39:13

Well , you know , people ask you know . I mean , you

39:15

know , people ask you know . Yeah , well , is this just

39:17

like what y'all think you

39:20

know , or is it it ? Can you substantiate

39:23

it ?

39:23

So we say , yeah , we can substantiate , we want to

39:25

think we just have a couple of quick questions

39:27

of like sort of myths or

39:29

things we've heard that we just wanted you all to , you

39:32

know , give your thoughts on , one

39:35

of them , being you kind of brought this up with younger

39:37

readers . You know , we know foundational skills

39:40

are really important for those younger readers . Where

39:42

does this , where does this knowledge building and

39:44

where does this tool specifically , how

39:46

does it fit for students who are just learning

39:48

how to read ? Right , if they they

39:51

might not be able to read those books on their own , how

39:54

does this work for them ?

39:56

Well , I just can't , I just

39:58

have to dig in here . So , yeah , knowledge

40:01

building right from the start . I mean , yeah

40:03

, they can't read the text , so they're not going to . You know

40:05

the text they're learning to read , which is three or four words

40:07

on a page , and you know repeats and

40:09

does all that . But read aloud

40:12

. You know talking about things and

40:14

read aloud that are obviously above grade

40:16

level , what they can't do themselves . So

40:19

and Barbara will say this , because on the

40:21

Knowledge Matters website it says right from

40:24

the start and one

40:26

that interests the students , so there's joy of

40:28

learning . But it's also that that

40:30

I think that

40:32

and

40:34

this was partly when we were putting the tool together

40:36

you know we think about read aloud a lot and sort

40:39

of K2 , but they're still useful for

40:41

several grades later . Now that doesn't mean that all students

40:43

should be doing is listening to something

40:45

, but it is . I think

40:48

our , I think our reading

40:50

ability and our listening ability doesn't catch up until

40:52

I remember Eddie Hirsted this to me

40:54

then it doesn't catch up until in the middle , middle

40:57

school years , and so there's lots

40:59

of ways when the little young

41:01

ins they want to

41:03

learn about all kinds of things , and

41:05

so right from the start , yeah

41:08

, I'm trying to flip through quickly and

41:10

I'm not going to be able to a rubric

41:12

from a

41:15

state that will remain nameless

41:17

that talks about students

41:19

only reading text that they

41:21

have some you know knowledge

41:24

of , or something like that .

41:27

And it's kind of crazy making

41:29

this idea that you know , we , we

41:31

learn to read and then we read

41:33

to learn , because the fact is you

41:37

that can , that cannon should

41:39

begin at the very youngest of

41:41

grades . I mean , increasingly there are wonderful

41:44

decodable texts that build knowledge at the same

41:46

time too , but what Sue's talking about

41:48

and what we're , you know , sort of most

41:50

familiar with , is the

41:52

opportunity for kids to

41:54

, at least in their first or

41:56

second reading of a text , for that to

41:58

be done communally and , you

42:01

know , through , through a read aloud . So

42:04

, and then they , you know , get

42:06

exposed to these wonderful words and

42:08

start . One of the most

42:10

popular blogs that we've ever put out was one

42:13

that Sue and Meredith and David wrote . That's on the

42:15

Knowledge Matters website . Gosh

42:18

, I don't even remember the name of it , so it's called the dinosaurs

42:20

, but you

42:23

know this one too .

42:24

Yeah , I think it's the dinosaur effect . I'll link

42:26

it in the show notes . I'm linking everything .

42:29

It's sort of that phenomenon like why

42:31

, how is it that two and three-year-olds

42:34

yeah , two and three-year-olds

42:36

know so much about

42:38

dinosaurs ? And because they ?

42:39

like they can say the names , these

42:41

names that are like 25

42:44

letters or something like that .

42:47

Little kids like being experts

42:50

as much as any of us right , maybe

42:52

even more so , and so we need to give them the

42:54

opportunity to be so .

42:57

Read-Allows are under

42:59

one of the dimensions . We specifically

43:02

call them out .

43:03

That's really important . Awesome . I just linked

43:05

actually an episode we did on Read-Allows very

43:07

recently in our show notes . If you haven't listened

43:09

to it and you're looking for a direct complement

43:12

to this conversation , there's a link in the show notes

43:14

to that . Within those show notes

43:16

there's a resource to a book . Great

43:19

. But I have one more question

43:21

and this is one we get all the time

43:23

. I'm so excited for this particular question

43:26

. If ELA

43:28

curriculum is content rich , can

43:31

it replace social studies and science

43:33

? And why not ?

43:36

There are two important notes

43:38

that accompany this tool on the

43:40

first page of the

43:42

document , the first one being the one

43:45

that we've talked about , and that is that

43:47

we specifically did

43:49

not include

43:51

criteria for evaluating

43:55

a curriculum's foundational skills

43:57

build , because we think that there are other

43:59

tools out there that do that and we wanted to be really

44:01

clear that this wasn't trying to be an all-encompassing

44:03

tool . The second one says that building

44:05

knowledge through content . Rich ELA curricula

44:08

should never be considered a substitute

44:10

for strong history , social studies

44:12

and science instruction in the elementary

44:14

grades . In the presence of

44:16

high quality curriculum and instruction in

44:19

these disciplines , which will include

44:21

opportunities to use and practice one's

44:23

literacy skills , we can imagine

44:25

that time dedicated to English language

44:28

arts might be brought back in line with other

44:30

disciplines . I mean , this

44:32

is my dream is that increasingly

44:36

high quality social

44:38

studies and science curriculum will

44:40

become the norm in elementary

44:43

schools . That , as

44:45

a consequence because what

44:47

I consider to be high quality science

44:50

and social studies curriculum teaches

44:53

a lot of important content

44:55

and in doing so , has

44:57

students read , write

45:00

, speak and listen about those

45:02

things that they will be doing

45:04

more of it , but

45:07

it won't necessarily all be during the

45:09

ELA block . The

45:13

reason for it is obvious in

45:15

the passion that students

45:18

have about learning those

45:21

areas that content . I've

45:23

been out on a over this past

45:26

year . We've probably visited more

45:28

schools to

45:30

learn about their implementation

45:32

of high quality science instruction at

45:34

the elementary grades than we have even

45:37

in the ELA classrooms to

45:39

districts that have adopted ELA curricula . Those

45:43

visits don't feel a

45:46

whole lot different in many

45:48

ways in the sense in the presence

45:50

that we're seeing of the literacy

45:53

skills that are being , that

45:56

are being practiced , that are being used Boy

45:59

in a well run in

46:02

a classroom where they're using some of these

46:04

better science curricula . These

46:06

kids don't even know that they are getting

46:08

the writing practice that they are because they're just so feverishly

46:11

taking their notes about their experiments

46:13

and so forth , but certainly

46:15

the passion that these

46:18

kids have for

46:20

, in this case , science . We haven't

46:22

started visiting schools that are using high

46:24

quality history and social

46:26

studies curriculum kind of chomping at the bit

46:28

to do that , but we obviously need some

46:31

improvement in

46:33

that universe of HQIM

46:36

social studies . A

46:39

lot of progress been made on the science front but

46:42

, yeah , I mean

46:44

to say nothing

46:46

of the knowledge that we need our

46:49

young people to have in these content

46:51

areas . They animate

46:53

the heck out of little kids

46:56

to be learning about these

46:58

topics and I will you

47:00

know whenever . Even before I

47:02

went on a school tour visit that was focused on a

47:04

particular content area , but

47:07

more on ELA , when I asked kids what

47:09

their favorite subjects are , history and

47:11

science always come up as first , you

47:14

know , at the top of the list

47:16

.

47:17

Well , to wrap things up with you

47:19

all , a couple

47:21

of things about the tool that we've learned , one

47:24

. This is just one tool

47:26

that people should use as they are reviewing

47:28

curricula not the only tool , but

47:30

one , especially if they are digging

47:32

into looking for a

47:34

knowledge building curriculum . It

47:37

can be found on the Knowledge Matters website

47:39

. Correct , that's where I found

47:41

it .

47:43

Knowledge Matters campaignorg . That's

47:45

right . It's right on the hard page and

47:47

is there ?

47:48

are there any other tips that you want

47:50

to give if people are interested in using the tool

47:52

?

47:54

One thing that , oh , I was just going to say one thing

47:56

we heard when we did a webinar on it , where

47:58

people said , well , are you doing trainings

48:00

on it ? And we said , well , no , but

48:02

people can use what's on the Knowledge

48:04

Matters campaign website . So we have blurbs

48:07

about each one of the eight

48:09

that we think are superb and you

48:11

can see , you can train

48:13

people and say you know , here's the

48:15

dimension , here's the criteria for

48:18

this dimension , go see if you can find

48:20

it in the right . So the blurbs are small , short

48:22

, not made to be whatever , but it's a way for people to

48:25

kind of get a sense of what they should be

48:27

looking for . So that was one of the questions that had

48:29

come up for us .

48:30

Sorry , barbara . No , I think the only other thing that I would

48:32

say and that we didn't really have a chance to talk about

48:34

maybe we can come back and talk about it when we've got a little bit

48:36

more to say and

48:38

claim as success

48:40

and that is that you

48:43

know , because of so many of the so much

48:45

legislation that has been passed

48:50

in recent years about the science of

48:52

reading , a number of state

48:54

departments of education are being

48:56

required

48:59

to develop review processes

49:02

to ensure , you know , not all of those

49:04

laws , but many of those laws have

49:06

a curriculum component

49:08

and say that you know that

49:11

the state education agency needs

49:14

to identify a list of curriculum

49:16

that is the science of reading aligned

49:18

. And so we have been

49:20

in conversation with a few states

49:23

I would say almost like a number of

49:25

states already that

49:27

are interested in using this tool

49:30

and asking us sort of how

49:32

to your question , melissa

49:34

, you know , given that it's not the

49:36

entire , we're not trying to replace

49:38

anything that's out there , we're not trying to replace

49:40

it reports . We're saying this is

49:43

your add

49:45

on , you know , for digging really

49:48

deep on the knowledge

49:50

piece , if that is of interest to

49:52

you and it should be . And

49:54

actually there's one state already Wisconsin

49:57

that has recently issued a in

50:00

response to legislation . A committee

50:02

was put together that was tasked

50:05

with creating a rubric , and

50:08

this tool is adopted

50:12

almost in total , along with other

50:14

things . But there are many

50:16

of these criteria that you will that

50:18

we've been talking about today that are embedded in that

50:20

. That states rubric

50:22

already that will be used to , you

50:25

know , create a list of curriculum coming up

50:27

and , as I said , there are about five

50:30

other states that we've been some conversation with

50:32

already about that . So

50:36

, and so that's my last way of saying

50:38

it's on the website poach it

50:40

, take it , use it , adapt

50:42

it , make it your own , you know

50:44

.

50:46

All right . Well , it's in our show notes as well . It's

50:48

here . Please use it . If you're listening

50:50

, reach out with questions . We always respond

50:52

and answer and we can't thank you

50:54

enough , sue and Barbara , for everything

50:56

that you've done to make this come to

50:58

the hands of educators who

51:00

so desperately need it . So thank you so much

51:02

.

51:04

Well , and we can't thank you all enough

51:06

for the great work that you do . We're

51:09

big fans and your

51:11

work is really really important , so thank you

51:13

.

51:17

Thanks for listening . Literacy Lovers , To

51:19

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51:21

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51:25

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51:44

Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions

51:47

expressed by the hosts and guests of the

51:49

Melissa and Lori Love Literacy Podcast are

51:51

not necessarily the opinions of Great Minds

51:53

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51:55

.

51:57

We appreciate you so much and

51:59

we're so glad you're here to learn with us .