0:04

We can be Mere Mortals. Welcome

0:08

to another round

0:08

of the Mere Mortals musings.

0:11

You have Kyrin here

0:11

Juan on the side and you've.

0:13

Got Juan on the other side. Beautiful. And I hope that intro went

0:15

well because I could not

0:17

actually hear it coming through. But that is

0:18

because we are live. We're using some live

0:20

software here. Riverside, 7 p.m.,

0:22

Australian

0:24

Eastern Standard Time on

0:24

the 7th of February 20, 24

0:30

is the two Mere Mortals where we dive deeper into a particular

0:32

topic a musings episode

0:36

generally focusing on pragmatic philosophy, some takeaways

0:38

you can apply to it everyday. Real life with everyday

0:40

real examples. And boy,

0:42

do I have quite a few. For today's topic.

0:45

We're talking about pseudo

0:45

convos

0:48

pseudo conversations, so

0:48

we'll look it up for the,

0:51

the actual title for this

0:51

and those like

0:53

fake conversations

0:53

was the initial

0:56

might as doesn't sound right but pseudo is is perfect

0:59

and I'll get into

0:59

the definition of that

1:02

in a little bit. And honestly

1:02

it was because I've had it so one doesn't

1:05

know this news either. This last week

1:07

I'll probably highlight six or seven conversations

1:10

which just perfectly fit

1:10

into this niche of.

1:14

Into this realm. That was a bit

1:15

that was a bit strange. I didn't really understand

1:16

what was going on there. So I think it's a topic

1:18

worth exploring.

1:20

Well, I think it's one of those, you know,

1:22

where it's when you start saying, you know, red car,

1:24

red car, red car, just looking for it,

1:26

you start seeing it more. If you're going to buy

1:28

a particular car, you see it more. Maybe it was that way.

1:31

When it gets hot. This happened

1:32

because we switched the topic on there

1:33

a couple of days ago. So all these.

1:36

It was even before. Yeah. Okay. So autos

1:39

and it was initially triggered by

1:41

a work conversation that you were telling me

1:42

about, which

1:43

just sounded hilarious.

1:46

But that was a couple of other things related to media training

1:47

and things like that.

1:49

So yeah, Do you want me

1:51

to just jump into like a bit of definition

1:52

and then getting into

1:54

what exactly

1:54

a pseudo conversation is?

1:56

Yeah, I want you give me the definition

1:59

and then I want to hear at least an example of some of the ones that

2:00

you've been having lately. And we'll jump from there.

2:02

Sure, sure. So pseudo

2:05

pseudo for those who do not know means non-genuine,

2:06

spurious or a sham.

2:09

So we're probably going to have to cover

2:10

what is real and

2:14

what's a real conversation

2:14

or how.

2:16

If you can judge realness and maybe

2:18

even intent of a of a conversation, because

2:20

if it's non-genuine

2:23

that I think that applies to, to something like that's

2:25

perhaps where the intent has gone

2:26

wrong.

2:28

Conversation interactive communication between two

2:30

or more people. So it doesn't need

2:32

to have a purpose per say

2:35

which. But but skills and

2:36

etiquette are important.

2:38

So I was looking up the definition and I was just kind of

2:39

like focussed on

2:42

the conversational skills and conversational

2:43

etiquette. Is part of it,

2:45

but not necessarily

2:48

the purpose

2:48

of communication.

2:51

So yeah, I'm really just trying

2:52

to get at the heart of what is it when you have a

2:55

conversation,

2:55

I hope everyone has some

2:57

something like this which they can relate to,

2:58

where you come out of it

3:00

just bewildered

3:00

or confused and you got,

3:03

I don't know what just happened. They're like, What?

3:05

What exactly was that thing? Just that just happened.

3:07

It was. But because you can have

3:08

all sorts of different types

3:10

of conversations and have hard ones.

3:13

So this would maybe be like an intervention

3:16

with a friend or someone who's going down

3:17

a wrong route,

3:19

you know, funny ones which are just banter, you know, mundane ones

3:22

which are just the

3:22

pleasantries of everyday,

3:24

ordinary life on the bus

3:24

or train or whatever.

3:27

You have serious ones,

3:27

you know, the DMS

3:29

after a couple of drinks maybe, or at the end of a

3:30

long night argumentative ones,

3:31

debates, etc.,

3:34

you get the point. There's a whole bunch of

3:35

different conversations. You know, it's

3:37

interactive communication.

3:40

Have I done a good enough job

3:41

of explaining the topic

3:43

and what I kind of wanted to get into today? I think I think so.

3:46

I want to hear an example. Give me give me an example

3:48

of a similar conversation you've had recently. I will jump in from there.

3:52

Sure. All right. So where should I start

3:53

with this?

3:56

Because I do I have,

3:56

let's say, on my list

3:59

here, I had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

4:00

eight, nine, ten, 11.

4:04

Conversation points,

4:04

which I participated

4:07

in most of them. So.

4:11

All right. Well, we'll start off with probably like one of the worst.

4:14

And I've got a little bit

4:14

of a ranking system

4:17

right towards the end. But this was

4:18

the worst one.

4:20

So my brothers, my brother's dog buddies,

4:22

I took him out

4:24

for my first solo

4:24

walk with him

4:26

and we just went to one

4:26

an area near Bulimba.

4:29

And as I was going along, you do have a lot of kind

4:33

of conversations with people. Your dog meets other dogs

4:34

and then you're

4:37

standing there and

4:37

it's like, okay, dog talk,

4:39

You know, this is this is new for me. I've never actually

4:41

walked a dog solo before,

4:41

so this is.

4:44

What awaits me. Yeah, everyone else is

4:45

like, yeah, car. And obviously the

4:47

and so I had

4:51

this little mini conversations with people and, you know,

4:53

I had to kind of like pretend to be interested

4:54

in their dog, even though I'm

4:56

not really, you know, I'm

4:57

not really a dog person.

4:59

And this was one lady.

5:02

So I walk up to her and she's like,

5:04

my God, your dog. So cute. How old is he?

5:06

I'm like, you know, is is probably

5:07

about four months old.

5:10

Just haven't had his vaccinations and we're after

5:11

our first walk.

5:13

So it's kind of like, you know, exciting

5:14

something, something that they can

5:16

latch onto. There's a few things there

5:19

and she looks at me

5:19

and she's like,

5:21

that's not good for them, You know? I'm like,

5:25

okay, you know,

5:25

it's just like, jeez.

5:28

And then on my All right, come on about us. Let's go. And,

5:30

you know, try to jog away.

5:32

And, you know, he's

5:32

lingering with her dog

5:34

and then she's like, looks me dead in the eyes again. And she's like,

5:38

the vaccinations aren't

5:38

good for people either.

5:40

That's just like, you know,

5:43

if I was witty,

5:43

I would have loved to have

5:46

just responded with like, you know, enjoy your polio

5:48

and hepatitis B,

5:50

you know, something like that. Obviously, I'm not witty, so I just walked

5:52

away from. It should have been should have been during

5:54

the month of month ago that you

5:56

being an arsehole, I would have been perfect. Like, Yeah.

5:59

So that was a pseudo

5:59

conversation

6:02

right there I think, which was, that was interactive

6:03

communication between the two of us.

6:07

But whatever

6:07

the hell happened there,

6:10

I felt was non-genuine

6:10

or was like,

6:14

you know, she was genuine

6:14

on her part, but it lacks the,

6:18

the skills and the etiquette that perhaps

6:19

you'd find in a it was a sham

6:21

conversation. I came out of that

6:23

just being like, what the fuck was that

6:24

interaction?

6:26

So, so that that's, that's

6:26

a little bit of a

6:30

one for you right there. A very minor one.

6:32

I've given you everything

6:32

that I'm close to.

6:35

Word for word. What, what was said? What, what went down.

6:38

Yeah. So, so I do have like a whole

6:40

bunch of things related to like the, the intent

6:43

and the skill of a person and maybe even just the format

6:45

of the conversation. But and it's genuineness.

6:48

But yeah, have you got any the pseudo conversations

6:50

that come to.

6:52

Mind And we're going to, we're probably going to have to play around

6:54

with what what we mean

6:56

a silly conversation because I could see people

6:57

saying that hey,

7:02

well that was

7:02

I guess a conversation

7:05

that someone's trying to, you know, talk with you

7:07

about a particular point.

7:09

You might not care about it, you might not agree

7:11

with it. But I guess

7:13

she was trying to play out a conversation

7:14

of some kind.

7:17

Well, I guess, you know, I would argue that wasn't

7:18

really a conversation,

7:20

you know. Well, and this is the bit

7:21

and I'm like,

7:23

I think we need to be clear because does it take both parties

7:25

or more to claim

7:29

that it's a pseudo conversation? As in?

7:32

No, I think I think you can have

7:32

one party claim it is and the other party

7:34

think it's.

7:36

That was it's something else. I really because I do have

7:37

an example of today of something

7:39

similar to this happening. Okay And I'll I'll lay.

7:40

Out the scenario as well.

7:42

So now I want to make sure like we're talking

7:44

about a similar concept and then we can get into

7:47

the details and what it means, like see me more like so move away

7:49

from phoney conversations.

7:52

I was sitting at a food

7:52

court today after work.

7:56

I was hungry. I hadn't eaten all morning

7:57

ever.

7:59

In fact, I was 1230. I was like, Man, I'm starving. I got to go to the food,

8:01

go get some food. I walked down there.

8:05

Now, inside of the food

8:05

court there was probably

8:07

is a food code words about

8:07

what 200 people mean.

8:10

Lots of people. They got music blaring

8:11

in this food court

8:14

to the point that I got. I got a call from a worker

8:15

and I had

8:19

two points, in fact, like what defines one black a person,

8:21

one one's a work one

8:23

on the work. One is not connected

8:24

to my headphones, my personal one is.

8:27

And so in my work, one, I didn't have a connect

8:29

through the headphones, so I had to have

8:30

the phone. How am I

8:32

holding it out now? I was like,

8:33

I know the end of the.

8:35

Day before my and I had to. I was eating,

8:37

so I didn't really want to like put it up to my head.

8:39

So I have it on

8:39

loudspeaker right now.

8:42

Had a loudspeaker

8:42

to halfway volume.

8:45

However, it was so loud

8:45

in this food court

8:48

and people bustling about that. I was eating my sushi

8:50

and literally placing my ear

8:51

to like the point a bit

8:54

to understand what they were saying and kind of reply

8:55

back. Yeah. About three quarters

8:58

of the way through this conversation. And as I'm eating,

9:00

I see someone come around

9:01

to my left hand side and I thought originally

9:04

about dude is a homeless person. They kind of come

9:05

and eat buffet. It wasn't,

9:06

it was old lady. I'm going to put her in

9:08

like 65 years old.

9:10

She comes around and then just

9:11

unleashes on me, goes,

9:15

Do you have no respect

9:15

for the

9:17

for the public space? I'm I have to move.

9:20

I can't eat my food between you and this music

9:23

in the food court,

9:23

it's unbearable.

9:25

and again, it was one of my similar but I didn't really have

9:27

a funny retort. I was just more like

9:29

I was kind of looked at as like, okay. And got myself off me.

9:34

And I was like,

9:34

Continue the conversation.

9:37

So that I guess

9:37

I would pose it again as I

9:40

look at the phoney conversation in the sense

9:41

that, yes,

9:44

it was interactive,

9:44

but there was no

9:48

like there was like deep reason behind it. There was no intent for

9:50

for my part, I was like,

9:54

What's going on? You probably could have just moved away. Well,

9:56

they don't even have that. So that's why

9:57

I'm trying like, way out. But like,

9:59

is that

9:59

a phoney conversation

10:02

or do you just take it as like a like someone

10:03

just complaining to you and they're talking to you

10:05

about it?

10:07

Yeah. Because there is a

10:07

difference between someone

10:11

and talk. Like if I, if I,

10:12

if I hurl. Abuse

10:13

at a homeless person, is I justify any

10:16

conversation or am I being an arsehole. No, that's, you know,

10:20

that's, that's one way you know,

10:21

there wasn't really much for you to respond to,

10:25

you know, if should,

10:25

if should said like,

10:28

hey, by the way,

10:28

you know, you're talking

10:30

very loudly, you've got this stuff on. It's it's very distracting

10:32

and things like that

10:35

and made it open to

10:35

like a dialogue, I guess.

10:38

Whereas in that case, it sounded like she just wanted

10:40

to unleash on you. So I'd kind of put

10:41

that close to the top, but

10:45

I don't know if she was expecting anything back from you.

10:47

Much like the I get the feeling

10:49

the vaccine lady kind of wanted,

10:52

like she would have been willing

10:53

for a conversation, but I'm like, dragging

10:54

bodies out of them. I don't want any part of

10:55

this.

10:58

So, yeah, there can be

10:58

aspects of that, I think.

11:00

I think we'll have to just go through it and some of it just

11:02

might be us being like,

11:05

okay, that, you know,

11:05

that that was probably

11:09

only one of the only ones

11:09

I had, which was

11:12

related to, I guess a

11:15

it's like an antagonistic

11:15

sort of thing, right?

11:18

Yeah. Let's go on to this. So intent and skill,

11:20

I think related to, to

11:24

a pseudo conversation. So when you come

11:25

into a conversation,

11:28

I feel like, you know,

11:29

there's a couple of things that are going on. You want to either like

11:31

convey some information or

11:35

you kind of

11:35

want some realness to it.

11:37

I guess you want to know like what's

11:39

the other person actually

11:40

thinking or feeling? So like if you're being lied

11:42

to the entire time,

11:44

I'd put that close up to there being with like a pseudo

11:46

conversation. It's non-genuine,

11:48

you know, giving you

11:50

just receiving lies back and forth. Okay, well,

11:52

if you're lying as well.

11:54

So that's, that's one

11:54

or where you're someone's

11:58

come in with like an agenda or talking over the top of

11:59

you and things like that. So

12:03

my month ago, if you go back to them,

12:04

one of them has been to listen intently

12:07

And so I'm trying to do

12:07

this and I'm doing it

12:10

by focusing,

12:10

you know, 100% on one.

12:13

Whatever the person in

12:13

front of me is is saying.

12:16

So in the gym

12:16

setting, for example,

12:19

you know, there's a lot going on in the gym. There's it's pretty girls,

12:20

this music, people doing things.

12:23

But when I'm in there, I'm really trying

12:24

to just hone in on on

12:27

what the other person was

12:27

actually trying to say.

12:30

And so some of this would be

12:30

related to fitness stuff.

12:34

For example, there's a P.T. there who

12:36

I'm pretty friendly with. More, more, more to say.

12:38

He's very friendly with me. Like he is the guy

12:40

who's Max is Max. Yes.

12:43

And and yeah,

12:43

he came over,

12:45

say we were chatting and,

12:45

you know, I'm

12:48

I'm trying to give it

12:48

my all of being like,

12:50

let's make this

12:50

a real conversation here.

12:52

And not just me

12:52

telling you a story or him

12:55

telling me a story and then things like this and I think it's

13:00

it tends to result in like

13:00

lopsided conversations

13:04

if you're really trying to

13:04

get something across or,

13:09

for example,

13:12

in this case because I'm really trying to focus on

13:14

what they're saying,

13:16

I'm I'm tending to like

13:16

ask them questions more

13:19

so I have time to think and kind of analyse

13:21

what's actually going on, what are they

13:23

actually trying to say.

13:25

And then then I can kind of craft a response to it and,

13:28

and not just be in a selfish mode of now

13:29

it's my turn to speak,

13:33

you know, now it's, it's like actually creating a dialogue

13:35

I guess.

13:38

See, this is, this is what we're going to run into a challenge with this

13:40

because

13:43

I can kind of

13:45

think it through on

13:45

how any conversation

13:48

maybe isn't deemed

13:48

a pseudo conversation,

13:52

but maybe, maybe if we, I.

13:54

Wouldn't put a black and white sticker on these either.

13:57

As in yeah, this is pseudo

13:58

and this is not I, I've got my percentage

13:59

system.

14:02

So it goes from 0%

14:02

up to 100.

14:04

To 100%. Well,

14:05

I was going to say it and it's going to be

14:06

largely based here on the outcome

14:08

that you go into

14:10

with the conversation,

14:10

because I think

14:14

in general, Mike Ryan knows more and more like

14:16

most of the conversations that you get in, especially the ones that

14:18

care about you,

14:18

you want to be less

14:22

pseudo conversations

14:22

and more an outcome

14:24

where it's all the things we're talking about. I'm probably

14:26

going to be talking about listening it right

14:28

active listening. It's effective

14:30

communication. It's going

14:31

beyond the surface and actual route

14:33

of the conversation.

14:35

Things like that. So I think in most cases

14:38

what we're talking about here, that's

14:39

kind of the outcome. I think though

14:42

like in the example

14:42

of a salesman, if

14:44

if I'm trying to sell you something and you're feeding me data

14:46

or we're having a chat,

14:48

basically if I'm telling you a car, then I

14:51

might be buying tend

14:54

to be using skills, tools

14:54

or different manoeuvres.

14:57

I'm not really yes, I'm trying to acquire

14:58

information from me, but I'm trying to sell you

14:59

a product of some kind.

15:03

I would say, well, the outcome there is change. It might not be

15:06

I wouldn't exactly turn it into a pseudo

15:07

conversation, but I would

15:09

I would shift away from the meaning

15:10

of a conversation. Yes, it is interactive,

15:13

but it's more a sales pitch. It's a sales pitch

15:14

slash conversation.

15:16

And if you want to turn that into pseudo conversation for the

15:20

maybe for the fact that they're

15:21

putting out a barrier, that it looks like

15:22

I'm getting to know you. I've got another example.

15:25

Actually,

15:25

I have an example to maybe

15:28

help us illustrate this moment. I went to Mercedes-Benz

15:31

in Brazil and I went in

15:31

with my daughter.

15:34

Now nine months old. It was her. It was her.

15:37

The day she turned nine months, we went in there

15:40

and I wanted to look

15:40

for a potential new SUV.

15:42

So I was walking around. They said I will send you

15:44

through someone to come

15:46

and like help you out. Awesome. This individual,

15:48

I won't name her.

15:50

So she sort of came over,

15:53

helped to show me around

15:53

some of the cars,

15:55

darling girls that started

15:55

just losing it.

15:57

Right. It was right around her

15:58

time for the a bit

16:00

at the beginning, the sales lady was like,

16:02

really nice. Yeah.

16:04

Hey, this is the thing, and I'm asking you

16:05

questions. She's answering and it's a conversation

16:07

like a genuine good conversation,

16:09

and she's saying,

16:11

like you have a beautiful daughter, all this sort of stuff, you know, Is it cool? Until

16:16

Michael just, like, started just losing it

16:17

and then there wasn't

16:19

any of that kind of interaction. I just, like,

16:21

fell by the wayside.

16:24

And those you could feel it. There was a little bit

16:25

of a, I'm annoyed

16:27

that you're here now. Like, I'm annoyed

16:28

that you as a customer, I hear what a screaming

16:30

baby. And I kind of

16:32

want to show you anymore. And it actually ended

16:35

pretty shortly

16:35

after that potlucks.

16:37

I was like, okay, cool,

16:37

I need to get out of here.

16:39

But also from the perspective,

16:41

it wasn't the one trying

16:43

to keep the conversation or watch it being genuine. It was more like,

16:46

maybe it's not going to be a sales year. So part of that

16:47

I'll go, yeah,

16:50

to finally conversation. Yeah, part of our time.

16:51

It as well. It's sales pitch

16:53

they're there to sell you something

16:54

so the

16:57

it can be murky

16:57

murky boundaries

17:00

but for sure

17:00

I'd say you know yes

17:02

it's a sliding scale but it definitely depends on the outcome

17:05

of conversations that we're talking about. But I think largely here

17:06

we're talking, you know,

17:09

the outcome of conversations being,

17:10

well meant listening,

17:14

caring about what the other person is saying, kind of saying that's

17:16

that's the opposite of offering in conversation. I think it's with

17:18

if both parties come in

17:21

knowing kind of what to expect. So, you know,

17:22

you went in there

17:25

expecting to be sold something and you were trying

17:27

to acquire information.

17:29

She goes and into that

17:29

same conversation, trying

17:32

to sell you something

17:32

and expecting to

17:35

maybe get a result or not

17:35

get a result.

17:37

You know, that's that's the thing. So I would say like

17:38

that was 100% real.

17:41

Both of your expectations aligned when you were at the start

17:43

and you knew what

17:46

knew what you were getting into. And it sounded like it was

17:47

it was going good as well. You know,

17:51

And then when circumstances change

17:52

and then it's like,

17:54

okay, well, now I've got a screaming

17:55

baby here, So you're obviously not

17:57

paying is giving her

17:59

your full attention. You know, your what,

18:02

maybe like 20 or 30%

18:02

listening to what

18:04

she's saying and the rest, as you know it, you're

18:06

dealing with Vienna. She's noticing

18:07

you're not giving her

18:09

your full attention. And she's starting to be like,

18:11

okay, well, this guy's just being

18:12

like, inconsiderate now

18:15

or he's not listening. So you know

18:16

what's going on here?

18:18

And that's when I'd say the the suddenness came in.

18:22

And so, you know,

18:22

if you are close to like, you know, 90

18:24

to 100% at the start,

18:26

it could have dropped down

18:26

to maybe 40 or 50%.

18:29

And that's that's

18:29

when it's like

18:31

the unpleasantness and the

18:31

the non-real ness starts

18:35

to kick in. You're like, okay, well,

18:35

this isn't whatever's happening here

18:37

isn't as genuine

18:39

as it was before. So yeah, that's yeah, I think that's

18:41

all good info.

18:43

I'll give one here

18:43

once again because it's,

18:46

it's kind of like murky

18:46

what we're talking about

18:48

so people can judge for themselves and then see see

18:50

how my rating system goes

18:53

with those. So last week

18:54

I talked about a podcast

18:56

which was the Dave Asprey

18:56

and Brian with

18:59

a Y Johnson. And this is another reason

19:02

why I wanted to talk about this, because

19:03

they mentioned in there how they had media

19:05

training. And when you have media

19:07

training,

19:09

I think that's

19:09

getting close to like

19:11

the top of pseudo ness. If you're going into

19:14

a press conference

19:14

or something.

19:16

Once again,

19:16

maybe expectations of

19:20

the press are like, okay, this guy's

19:21

going to kind of feed me bullshit and

19:22

not answer my question.

19:24

And he goes into it being like, I'm going

19:26

to try and sell them off and not talk

19:27

about their questions. So maybe for those two

19:29

participants

19:32

it feels real. But if you're watching

19:33

from the outside,

19:35

you're just like, What the hell is this? This person's asking

19:36

questions, this person's

19:39

avoiding the question

19:39

and not answering it.

19:42

This is or what

19:42

it will like.

19:44

What am I watching here? And and so, like, they are

19:49

even just their conversation themselves,

19:49

it seemed like,

19:52

okay, there's a bit of weird stuff going on with whatever

19:55

they're trying to do, these two guys

19:56

and, and like, they were two weird

19:57

guys as well. So it was, you know,

20:00

it was a very weird

20:00

conversation.

20:04

another one I was watching

20:04

was Tim Ferriss with

20:07

Noah Cogan. Once again, this is where

20:08

the context is.

20:12

I would say much more

20:15

in this case, kind of like

20:15

a more realness to it.

20:18

Tim Ferriss is an excellent interviewer

20:19

slash conversationalist,

20:22

but there is this one point in the middle of it where Tim's like,

20:23

Pause, Hey,

20:27

I just go like you know, like you've been saying

20:28

your book title a lot and like,

20:29

we have to cut it out.

20:32

It just comes across

20:32

as being too pushy or too

20:36

much like,

20:36

I'd don't want it.

20:38

I like that. I don't like. I like that Tim kept that

20:40

in the podcast as well.

20:43

Yeah, because the because Noah was really

20:43

cool and said, you know,

20:46

thank you for the feedback and they both agreed

20:47

to keep it in. So like

20:49

they just kept rolling. So yeah, that was,

20:50

that was excellent.

20:53

So once again,

20:53

that's like, okay, up

20:55

until that point

20:55

I would have said like,

20:58

Yeah, man, really genuine conversation

20:58

between these two guys. They're

21:00

talking about topics. Obviously,

21:03

you know, Tim's the host, so he's asking more questions

21:05

and things like that.

21:07

But then there was this this bit creeped in where

21:09

the allusion was kind

21:09

of broken and you're like,

21:13

okay. So I was there to kind

21:14

of spruikers book as well.

21:16

So, you know, it's

21:16

not, it's not like 100%

21:21

a real thing going on

21:21

and there's a

21:23

little bit of something beneath the surface

21:24

as well. He's, he's trying to do

21:25

a bit of a sales pitch to the people at home.

21:28

Seems like he's not trying to do

21:29

the sales pitch to Tim

21:31

is doing that for other people. So yeah, once again,

21:36

I'll give my ranking system a bit later

21:37

and if you wanted to, you can see how yours

21:38

actually adds up to mine.

21:43

But you know, two things

21:44

that seem very similar to podcast conversations.

21:47

One where there's a host on on either side and

21:49

that's just two people.

21:52

But I think you can have very different outcomes of the real ness

21:54

or the genuine ness of,

21:57

of what was actually occurring. Now. Can you

22:00

think just as another

22:00

example to put for people,

22:04

what would you say

22:04

of all the podcasts

22:06

you've listened to? Will you go?

22:09

Yeah,

22:09

that was almost probably

22:11

one of those podcasts. It's really quite genuine

22:12

conversation

22:15

versus maybe, you know, trying to sell

22:18

a particular point

22:18

or reason or a brain

22:22

or something like that versus maybe the one

22:23

that you'd be like, What I was like, I like

22:24

heavy pseudo conversation.

22:28

Like you could tell that there was

22:30

other outcomes than, than a genuine

22:31

conversation to be had.

22:34

I think Joe Rogan is probably the top

22:35

of the list for a person who's

22:37

had the most of them, and that's why he's,

22:39

you know, skyrocketed

22:39

because he's he's he's

22:43

genuinely interested

22:43

and you can't fake it over

22:46

the four or five hour

22:46

episodes that he does

22:49

and probably

22:49

especially his earlier

22:51

episodes as well. So if you want to see

22:54

an example, actually,

22:54

and I'll pull it up

22:56

to make sure I don't get it wrong, but he had a recent conversation

22:58

with a lady, by the way.

23:01

I believe he's resigned

23:01

his deal with Spotify.

23:04

But he's able to go

23:04

back onto YouTube now,

23:06

Something like that. Yeah. So it's not exclusive

23:07

to Spotify. Yeah,

23:09

I still hold the rights,

23:12

but yeah, his they'll

23:12

they'll put the audio.

23:16

The audio will be available on any podcasting app,

23:17

you know

23:19

podcasting 2.0 apps

23:19

included in that. Guy.

23:22

And yes, I believe

23:22

the video is going

23:25

back up

23:25

on, onto YouTube as well.

23:28

that's good. Yeah. Do you reckon

23:29

you'll start watching it? Are we in for a win

23:31

for open podcasting.

23:33

I'll be much more likely to. I don't like them.

23:36

So he does give an example for people

23:37

who want to see it. He had a conversation

23:39

25th of January

23:41

with a lady called Diana

23:41

Walsh, Bazooka Joe Rogan.

23:45

And right

23:45

at the beginning,

23:48

the Diana Diana

23:48

sort of calls out that

23:51

they talk about aliens

23:51

and like religion

23:53

and all this stuff. But right at the beginning, she kind of calls out

23:55

like, yeah, I'm

23:56

a I'm a bit like, scared that I'm going

23:58

to be talking about this particular topic and there's going to be

24:00

so many people listening to this podcast

24:01

and whatnot.

24:03

And you could tell very

24:03

genuinely that beginning

24:05

I was like, basis,

24:05

I don't give a fuck,

24:08

I don't give a shit how many people like I'm I just want to talk to you

24:10

and talk about this

24:11

particular thing. And I think that to me

24:14

I was gonna say similarly it's if you want to see

24:15

an example of just

24:17

a genuine conversation, it is purely just one person

24:19

talking to another

24:19

and trying to get to the

24:22

I guess you call like the topic at hand. That's the outcome.

24:24

Yeah. You can't go too far beyond that. Like it does way

24:26

better than we do it. Because a lot of the

24:28

times when we're talking, there's

24:30

things in our background, we're like, okay, we're thinking

24:31

sometimes about, you know, the be more

24:33

the me more light out there

24:34

and what something. In respond

24:35

to a little comment then

24:38

so you know that's that that reduces

24:38

the genuineness

24:41

of this one for sure. Exactly So yeah that doesn't exist but

24:43

what about the opposite side What's what's a real life?

24:47

Look, I'm

24:47

trying to think of one

24:49

which comes off right

24:49

at the top of my head.

24:51

Probably the

24:51

I think Sam Harris

24:55

had one with her

24:55

Vox once, I believe,

24:58

and that was just a very

25:02

kind of like you can tell it

25:02

when it's like not

25:04

flowing smoothly

25:04

or maybe the

25:07

the first one that he had

25:07

with Jordan Peterson

25:10

was probably another

25:10

good example of that.

25:13

Maybe like one of those middle ones

25:14

where you just like

25:16

I don't I don't really

25:16

know what's going on here.

25:19

This doesn't seem to be progressing forward.

25:22

They're

25:22

getting stuck on semantics

25:25

or they're talking past

25:25

each other

25:27

and not really like there's a lot of confusion and non understanding

25:29

going on, which I think can also be

25:31

a kind of indication

25:34

or a sign. And I don't have one

25:36

out of the out

25:38

of my pocket, but there are

25:40

certainly podcasts where the guest will pay

25:41

to be on the podcast

25:44

and now I think

25:44

by U.S. law.

25:48

So I don't know what

25:48

the law is here

25:50

in Australia, but by US law I believe

25:53

you have to state that

25:53

explicitly at the start of

25:56

the conversation

25:56

or make that known that

26:00

this is a paying guest

26:00

to come on here

26:03

and, and that they're

26:03

talking about their, their

26:05

products

26:05

or things like that. Yeah.

26:08

But if you don't if you don't say that

26:10

as the host

26:12

that that's 100% something that's like meant to come across

26:14

as genuine and here

26:17

perfect example as well

26:17

which is the fake podcasts

26:21

on TikTok using these now

26:21

so it'll be someone who

26:25

there was this one

26:25

dude in particular who is

26:28

he had this back up backdrop that looked

26:30

like the Joe Rogan backdrop.

26:33

And so he was pretending

26:33

like he was speaking to

26:37

with Joe Rogan, like as if he was

26:38

in the actual studio.

26:41

The funny thing was they had the correct mikes

26:42

and everything, but they didn't

26:44

even use the mic. They were just using

26:45

like foreign audio for.

26:48

Shitty like audio. So that's that's one

26:50

where it's like someone 100%

26:53

trying to come across as if they're

26:55

in a real conversation. And it's just like,

26:56

fucking bullshit, you know

26:59

damn well. Actually, just

27:00

I wouldn't really be able to specifically call

27:02

that a podcast. Again,

27:03

we've only listened to like a mind percentage

27:04

of all the podcasts.

27:08

And we will probably, if we see or feel

27:09

something's off,

27:12

you know, I'm not I'm not going to stick around. You know,

27:13

going to continue. Yeah, but I do remember

27:15

this is the early days when we're doing

27:16

the podcast stuff where I looked into

27:18

kind of the name of it,

27:20

but there's apps

27:20

and websites for this

27:23

where you can put yourself down as, Hey, I have this podcast

27:24

or I have this platform.

27:27

Yeah, if anyone would like to jump on

27:28

and have a conversation or an interview,

27:29

like jump in. And similarly

27:32

the other way around, you can kind of

27:33

put yourself down. Yeah, as an individual

27:35

that wants to be interviewed, that that's getting close

27:37

to having some sort of,

27:39

you know, pseudo conversation because it's not like

27:41

it doesn't feel genuine.

27:43

You're doing it for the numbers, for the volume,

27:44

for whatever it may be.

27:46

We've got a couple of those emails today of people

27:47

who are like, you know, this person would be great

27:49

to come on for whatever reason.

27:53

And and, you know, it's nice when they actually put out

27:54

names at the top. I think they did that

27:57

recently where it was like, hey, one car and team

27:58

and it's like, my God, you,

28:01

you spent the 5 seconds

28:01

here to actually

28:03

bother with that. It makes the details. They said there was a Luna

28:05

Luna gem in the chat.

28:09

They said here

28:09

what they aren't saying.

28:12

And I think that's a good point. So I wanted to ask you,

28:15

what are some signs perhaps that you think

28:16

something is a pseudo conversation

28:17

or when

28:21

anyways to identify if someone's perhaps talking with an agenda

28:23

and it's not,

28:26

it's not a real thing

28:26

going on.

28:28

And I think that was kind of like

28:30

a little good point that they had that

28:32

Luna had there, which is sometimes

28:34

you hear the things that they aren't saying.

28:36

So if they'd been asked a question

28:37

and they're like,

28:39

and it's perhaps like a little bit

28:40

of a pointed question and they're like skirting

28:42

around the topic or the,

28:45

you know, they're talking about nuclear

28:48

energy or something, and

28:50

they felt like they don't

28:53

talk about the data at all

28:53

and they immediately

28:55

jump to the fear mongering

28:55

all like Chernobyl

28:59

is going to blow up. You know,

29:00

I think of the kids. Why would somebody please

29:01

like the children

29:04

that sort of. Well, I think so. Just something

29:05

that points out this is and maybe

29:08

maybe we'll touch a lot more on the after the

29:10

the boostagram lounge.

29:12

But from a moving story

29:12

as an individual,

29:16

like someone in a conversation, moving it from a ceremony

29:17

or a pseudo conversation

29:21

into a more genuine

29:21

conversation,

29:24

there's a very

29:26

I think it is I was gonna ask this question we can talk about it

29:28

later. Whether it is

29:29

it is a trainable skill

29:31

or just a skill that you kind of just possess as you grow up

29:33

from a young age to

29:35

be able to assess whether, you know,

29:38

you're hearing what the person isn't saying.

29:39

I want to give an example. So what you just

29:42

like an example

29:42

you just gave there, it's

29:45

having the skill set

29:45

to kind of push beyond.

29:49

Yes. Listening to what

29:49

the person saying,

29:51

but getting that,

29:51

whether it's a feeling

29:54

or the understanding that, hey, there's actually something

29:56

even more deep rooted here that they're not actually saying.

29:59

And I need to get

29:59

to that point

30:01

or kind of like brute

30:01

forcing your way

30:04

past those barriers

30:04

to the real intent.

30:07

But I think it takes some real skill either

30:07

because, A,

30:10

you don't have like the connection with the person

30:12

to get that deep quickly

30:12

or B,

30:15

you do have that connection. But it's about almost

30:16

having the fortitude

30:19

to just do it,

30:19

like the courage to do it.

30:22

That's hard. That's hard because even that can be in the back of your mind.

30:24

You might be, you know,

30:24

you might be

30:26

this random example. You might be talking

30:27

to a random person and you're hearing

30:29

the asking about the day and are you okay? And how's everything?

30:32

And you can see them like, yeah,

30:33

that's kind of good. But you can tell you have like this here

30:34

where they're not saying,

30:38

So you're technically having

30:38

a pseudo conversation about you're asking

30:40

this person how they are

30:41

the kind of lying to you or they're not telling you

30:43

the full thing. If you're also not

30:44

that encompassing or penetrating

30:46

to the conversation,

30:48

it's a pseudo convo. If it didn't happen in not actually

30:51

telling each other

30:51

anything more than lies

30:53

or just very

30:53

superficial thing,

30:55

but it takes some fortitude to push past that boundary

30:56

to the things you can

30:59

see, you can hear. But you know, don't you know, they're actually

31:01

not saying to get to that deep,

31:03

more deep rooted

31:03

conversation to be had.

31:07

But the skills, skill sets

31:07

that come with that

31:09

to do that. 100%. And and it's the ways of

31:13

tackling something as well. So I had a little example

31:14

here, which was

31:18

why was it that

31:18

I've become over the years

31:21

just spent more time looking at Zen and Buddhism

31:23

than I have at, say,

31:26

like Christianity,

31:26

for example,

31:28

and I think that better marketers,

31:29

like I've never had

31:32

a Buddhist person

31:32

really come up to me

31:35

and like, try

31:35

and sell their religion,

31:37

whereas I can think of so many times

31:38

where I've had the,

31:40

you know, the very explicit, they come up to the door

31:43

and they're trying to pitch me a Jehovah's Witness style

31:44

or something like that,

31:47

you know, fine. I kind of once again,

31:47

I kind of know

31:50

what I'm getting into when I open the door

31:51

like that. And it's like, okay, I know

31:52

what's happening here.

31:55

So there's there's like

31:55

a bit of realness to it.

31:58

There. I've had the other ones where you think you're

32:00

just talking with the person and then that

32:01

they're building in

32:03

this lead up to spruiking

32:03

you like, by the way,

32:07

you know, Jehovah's Witness, go to this website.

32:10

I've talked about this on the podcast before many,

32:13

many years ago,

32:13

like two years ago, where

32:16

this lady, like,

32:16

got me to download an app

32:19

like because I thought it was a different app that she was talking about

32:22

and it actually

32:22

was just like a mormon

32:25

or Jehovah's Witness

32:25

like app application.

32:27

I'm like, What the fuck? What just happened here?

32:30

Like, this is the way this should be made. Sneaky God.

32:32

And it can and, and, and yeah,

32:34

people are definitely good

32:34

at better

32:36

this and here's

32:36

another one

32:39

that was

32:39

in the gym very recently.

32:42

It's an older gentleman, but he's pretty well

32:43

built to put together.

32:45

He obviously cares a lot

32:45

about fitness.

32:47

I chatted with him

32:47

a couple of times before

32:50

and he is really cool

32:50

guy, really cool.

32:53

And we're just talking about something. Can I mentioned

32:54

bro science?

32:57

I can't remember how it came up and you know,

32:58

he got real excited

33:01

and he and he was like laughing. And then he's like,

33:03

All right, I got it. I got to tell you

33:04

something. And then he kind of

33:05

tells me about this thing that he's working on.

33:07

And it was basically a

33:11

a fitness box type thing,

33:11

like a home gym,

33:15

1.3 metres

33:15

by 1.2 metres, I believe.

33:18

And it's got all these cables and it can do this

33:19

and could do that. And he spent

33:20

a whole lot of time, money, effort onto it

33:22

creating this thing.

33:24

He originally created it for some friends

33:25

during the COVID time

33:28

or like just peak COVID

33:28

pass over time,

33:31

all this sort of thing. And he was very much

33:32

like talking at me and

33:36

this was where it's like, you know, if if other people

33:37

I've had this before, you know, people

33:39

just talk at you and sometimes it's about some

33:43

really boring shit

33:43

and you don't care.

33:46

In this case, I kind of did care because he was

33:47

he was like, he was telling me a story.

33:49

I was making it funny. It was very interesting.

33:52

He was still talking at me. So it's still lost

33:53

a little bit of the interaction

33:55

of this.

33:57

And and perhaps, you know, it wasn't

33:59

exactly the conversation I thought I was going

34:01

to have with him.

34:04

But, you know, he was funny. He was he was like really

34:05

selling it. And, you know,

34:07

he got to the point eventually and why

34:09

the bro science was funny

34:11

because he's kind of like label the brand is kind of

34:13

sort of like a bro science

34:15

type thing, even though it's more serious

34:17

and, and like scientific.

34:20

And that was one where

34:20

I was like, okay, this,

34:23

this guy was, you know, if if another person

34:25

had done this to me

34:27

and talked about me like that, I would have found

34:29

a way to escape it

34:31

sooner and and just kind

34:31

of like get out of there.

34:35

But because he was good

34:35

at it, I,

34:37

I was, I was like, all right,

34:38

this is you know, this is.

34:41

Like, I'm going to stick. Around. Is not 100%

34:44

I was expecting, but

34:44

it was still worthwhile

34:46

hanging around and hearing him out. And and, you know,

34:50

because he was passionate about it. And passionate

34:52

is also probably like another

34:55

that I'd put that as an

34:55

indicator of genuineness.

34:57

If someone's passionate about what

34:59

they're talking about,

35:01

then I'd probably put that as a as a higher level

35:02

of likely to be genuine.

35:06

Yeah. it's a part of, I guess the authenticity.

35:10

Like it gives you an idea of whether a person

35:11

actually being authentic. If you see them

35:13

almost like letting loose

35:16

and just letting the

35:16

passion flow as opposed to

35:18

the almost like jarring

35:18

or false version of like

35:21

you talking about something else and then pulling it back. I mean, like, anyways,

35:23

yeah, yeah, buy this. Car and if, if they asking

35:24

questions as well.

35:27

Another great one I always love to see this is when

35:30

someone is on someone's podcast

35:32

so it'll be like Noah

35:32

on Tim Ferris's

35:35

but he asks quiz questions back to Tim

35:36

because that's what you get in real life

35:38

conversations.

35:40

A lot of time. It's quite a, it's a back and forth, back and forth,

35:43

and it's not just

35:43

an interview style like.

35:46

Ryan Well, I mean, we'll talk about it

35:46

in the after the best you can, but

35:48

it's an example difference

35:50

between my interview with toif and my interview

35:52

with Emil. I want to get

35:54

I want to get your thoughts on on that

35:55

as well. Yeah, sure. Sure.

35:57

You mentioned that. Let's jump in in the best

35:58

gaps, man. I'll, Yeah, let's it

36:02

Kim is. Jumping up Boostagram Lounge so Boosta

36:04

Gram is a message

36:08

that you can send directly

36:08

within a podcasting app

36:10

and it has to be a good one. So it has to be one

36:12

which has all the cool

36:14

new features of things like transcripts,

36:15

being able to search them

36:18

or being able

36:18

to like create clips

36:20

within the in the app itself of seeing chapters

36:22

chapter images,

36:24

which I always put in there, and you're able to send us

36:26

a message directly

36:29

within the app with a payment of money

36:29

attached to it.

36:33

Satoshis In this case, good apps to do this

36:34

on on places like Fountain Pod versus

36:36

Custom Attic and true

36:40

fans, places like a podcast gallery

36:41

shouldn't, shouldn't forget them

36:43

and yeah, we call them out on the show and thank these people

36:46

for helping to support the show and also give us some

36:48

feedback of and content.

36:51

So one,

36:51

what have we got to see?

36:54

I can, I can hear the excitement here from, from Karen

36:55

because it is a it is a good

36:57

week. It is very. Much. We've got Dave Jones.

37:01

Dave is back. He's back.

37:04

For the memorial

37:04

our nation 12,112 Saturday

37:06

using Ron words. And thank you Dave it's

37:07

so good so good to be.

37:10

Back thank you very much. For those perfect timing

37:12

because I'll talk about it

37:15

a little bit later, but perfect timing. Thank you, Dave.

37:17

Thank you very much. Then. Joe Madden, music

37:19

great episode

37:22

5000 Thoughts on

37:22

Using Fountain. Thank you.

37:24

Thank you, Joe. Man, I believe that was for the one

37:26

I did with Nick.

37:29

Yes, it was. Yesterday as well. Yeah.

37:31

Now I know you're going to get excited about these too,

37:32

so I'll just, I'll say them fully

37:35

that we had both dash

37:35

boys. Yep.

37:38

Yeah, that's. True.

37:40

Two different bursts. Yeah, but both are 30,000.

37:44

That's a fountain. yeah.

37:48

Well, the first

37:48

one, actually, no apology.

37:51

They're the same. No. So I was trying to verify

37:52

this.

37:55

I think I might have sent it twice, so I'm definitely gonna

37:56

have to send some back

37:59

because I was listening

37:59

to one of their episodes

38:03

just. Just now, and I was like, Yeah, I definitely need to send

38:06

some back because the thing. Is, I'm. Like, I'm

38:07

pretty sure it was double

38:10

all the data says it is,

38:10

but like the,

38:12

the just satoshis

38:12

don't stream.

38:16

I believe I'll be it. No, sorry, not all of it

38:18

because I don't think

38:18

I'll be had it So

38:21

yeah I need to,

38:21

I need to see it.

38:23

In any case, the comment there was incredibly

38:24

important interview about the future Fountain

38:26

thought of him and their insights

38:28

into marketing and audience growth.

38:30

Well done, Khan Thanks. Now, as I was saying,

38:31

the conversation they found Fountain as well. So yeah so that was

38:33

the was so as or

38:38

I have apologies

38:38

I forgotten

38:41

the other guy's name but beer bourbon

38:42

and balderdash is there

38:44

is that podcast and you know what it's

38:46

crazy man because I don't like beer

38:47

I don't like bourbon.

38:51

Balderdash. That's okay it's and it's

38:52

nor I game

38:54

it's somewhat interesting but they spend

38:55

probably like the first 25 minutes

38:57

of the episode talking about things

38:59

I don't really enjoy. But because they have

39:01

chapters,

39:03

I skip to the parts where I do. Enjoy the way I enjoy it.

39:05

So once again, I. Can't attest more to that.

39:09

I'm stunned to find myself doing that with a lot more podcast,

39:11

especially when they've got chapters. YouTube as well.

39:14

It's like critical. I'm actually disliking

39:15

the players out there

39:18

who don't have that. So I.

39:20

What was that, the Tim Ferriss No. Cogan When it first came

39:22

up, they had no chapters.

39:24

I refuse to watch it. I'm like,

39:25

No, I'm not going to I'm not going to even bother.

39:28

I'm going to waste my time. Yeah. And the following

39:31

here, Carl McCormack is in

39:31

zero of Ducks 2220

39:34

sets in using fountain.

39:34

He says great upside.

39:37

I stopped listening to Attila because of his outlive

39:38

book. Wow, that's interesting.

39:42

He had a very random coded sentence

39:43

about the COVID VAX

39:45

being innovative

39:47

five breezes later. That ain't longevity.

39:50

Doctors making money off

39:50

of speculation is insane.

39:53

The future of medicine is personal. No universal diet.

39:56

You need to follow

39:56

your own biology.

39:59

Interesting. Now, I haven't actually read. I didn't actually realise

40:00

that he called out

40:02

so specifically that in the book. Are you going to read

40:04

that book? Is that on your list?

40:07

I think I have gifted it

40:07

to my dad,

40:09

so I probably will end up

40:09

reading it at some point.

40:11

It's not for any like it's probably not

40:13

in the next few months. Gotcha. Yeah.

40:16

Yeah. Look, I don't know much

40:16

about the guy personally

40:18

and the book, but, Yeah, but

40:22

this is one of those ones

40:22

where Nicole feels

40:24

very strongly about the about the COVID vaccine

40:25

and things like that.

40:27

I'm I'm probably like,

40:27

on the middle ground.

40:31

I thought it was just like

40:34

he's listening

40:34

to the, the, the convo

40:36

I had with the dog lady

40:36

and it's just like,

40:38

man, I was fucking real. That was a real shit

40:39

of a car run, you idiot.

40:43

Yeah, I would say it's

40:43

similar in the way that

40:46

a meal is and why

40:46

you probably would dislike

40:50

a lot of right here. In the same way

40:52

if you disliked a lot of the way

40:52

that a meal came across.

40:55

Because he is very he's

40:55

very strong in the views

40:59

that he sort of sometimes holds

41:00

and he's pretty

41:02

directly he had a conversation with Tom Billy you listen recently

41:04

that I was listening to

41:06

and there was even parts

41:06

of it that I was like,

41:09

whoa, that's it's pretty hot hitting. This is maybe how Andrew

41:11

Huberman might be

41:15

a little bit more open

41:15

to not open, but I guess

41:19

kind of showcase a little bit more of

41:21

the cloud of haziness that

41:21

ah, can exist in science

41:24

pretty

41:24

I can get pretty direct.

41:27

I'm like, Hey, it's 1.6 grams of protein

41:28

per kilogram of

41:31

the commodity. So and I'm like, well,

41:32

I guess, you know,

41:34

it's definitely some variation, but he's very direct with

41:36

a lot of his calls now.

41:38

Yeah. I think cause

41:38

right though the, you know

41:41

you got to focus on your own sort of thing It's got to be individual,

41:43

you know, the,

41:45

the hurt

41:45

and there's a lot of

41:48

I mean the snake

41:48

oil salesman as, as a meme

41:51

as a thing has existed forever

41:52

because, you know, health

41:54

is like one of the most crucial things.

41:56

And people trying to

41:56

break your shipment,

41:58

whether it be the herbal remedies or whether it be 150

42:00

pills per day

42:03

that people are trying to sell you

42:04

shit, that's that's an area

42:05

where you got to got to keep

42:06

your wits about you. I think that, that.

42:09

And I think it's important to remember that

42:11

in the group or in the herd

42:13

or in the largeness,

42:16

the statistics are

42:16

important.

42:18

It makes sense. But the outcomes

42:20

that come out of a group or a herd mentality

42:21

or the outcomes

42:23

that come out of that gigantic mass of people

42:24

don't always translate

42:28

directly to the individual. So just because from its

42:31

physical perspective,

42:31

you know, it does say that

42:33

I should probably be eating this amount of calories and blah,

42:35

blah, blah, blah, blah,

42:37

Hey, you should probably know just in oneself

42:39

what that actually means specifically,

42:40

as we saw just recently,

42:43

you know, our mice, we're talking about the gym. We went to Current Gym

42:45

just recently,

42:47

a beautiful place. And you know, all of us had different

42:48

metabolic ages. Now, if you just

42:52

kind of thought like, Hey, we're all the same age, we're all

42:53

about the same way. Cool. So your base metabolic

42:55

rate should be about here.

42:57

No, it isn't. When you actually look individually, we are all kind of

42:59

slightly different. I'm saying, you know what

43:00

the metabolic age mean?

43:03

I've no idea. No idea. It basically means that

43:06

whatever that age was

43:06

provided is what you know,

43:09

unlike as a as a standard,

43:09

the lower it is to you

43:13

at your actual age,

43:13

it means the more calories

43:17

you burn in a, you know,

43:17

sort of sedentary mode.

43:20

So you burn calories

43:20

at the rate that,

43:22

I guess a 16 year old would and I would burn calories

43:24

in the right. The 19 year old wouldn't

43:26

just like standing

43:26

metabolic condition.

43:29

Okay. Obviously, the older that is, the slower the rate is.

43:32

What it just means that we can we can consume more

43:33

calories and burn them

43:36

without even having

43:36

to train as much as maybe

43:38

someone who has an older metabolic age. But, you know,

43:40

those numbers, you could

43:42

you could kind of science out. Well, all of you

43:43

guys are 32 years old. 31 years old.

43:46

You should all be roughly eating this amount

43:47

from wrong because it to

43:49

the individual is very different. But statistically,

43:52

an average, you could go, okay, yeah, you could make a good call

43:54

and on the average. But the average is

43:55

not the individual. Yeah, you know what? That kind of

43:57

makes sense, actually, because I've always

43:58

kind of said

44:01

whether I train or

44:01

not doesn't

44:03

seem to really matter because one

44:05

people are always like, yeah, if I do an extra

44:08

five ks on the treadmill,

44:08

like I really like

44:11

the way it really comes off or something. And I'd be like, Man,

44:13

I did. I ran fucking

44:15

half a marathon today

44:15

and I still, I

44:18

the exact same as I would if I did nothing and

44:19

my weight doesn't change.

44:23

Yeah. Okay, cool. That's interesting. Time.

44:24

Thank you so much.

44:26

If I want example, by the way

44:27

of this really clear one is like, you know why

44:29

it's different between averages

44:31

and individual. There's there's

44:32

always a famous saying that you know when

44:35

when or Warren Buffett

44:35

walks into a theatre

44:38

or an amphitheatre with a group of people, all of a sudden everyone

44:40

becomes a millionaire. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

44:41

Yeah. yeah, yeah.

44:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The average is very different

44:45

to the individual. Yeah, definitely.

44:47

All right. Very good. Thank you

44:48

everyone for doing that. I did check the PayPal.

44:51

Nothing coming in

44:51

on PayPal this week and

44:54

yeah, I probably should just

44:54

call that out as well.

44:57

If you did want to support the show and you're like,

44:58

I'll base to Grams

45:00

and change my podcast app,

45:00

I don't want to do that.

45:02

That's fine. We have a link down

45:03

in the show notes where you can send

45:05

that in. We actually sent

45:08

Nathaniel's very generous $10 off

45:10

through to Pod Verse LLC

45:14

as a as a

45:14

thank you for to Mitch for

45:17

spreading the pot verse up and doing really awesome

45:18

work with that and we're

45:21

we try and help out developers. I never really

45:22

mentioned it but 10% of

45:25

this very podcast goes

45:25

to developers as well.

45:28

So thank you very much

45:28

everyone for doing that.

45:32

Let's jump onto

45:32

perhaps the format one.

45:34

So I no surprise here,

45:34

but the medium matters

45:38

in terms

45:38

of having a conversation

45:40

in real life beats a video call. So you know,

45:43

Sudan is already you know

45:43

I'll, take off, what, 5%?

45:47

Maybe just just for the very fact that we're doing it

45:49

like this, which beats a phone call,

45:50

which beats, you know,

45:53

email, which beats texting, which beats postcard,

45:56

I'm not sure you can really get lower than Morse code.

45:58

Perhaps perhaps smoke

45:58

signals or something.

46:01

Like that might signal news. Yes. All that's all.

46:04

Yep. Yeah. And, and so, you know,

46:04

I had a truly bizarre

46:08

convo yesterday

46:08

and I closed the convo.

46:10

It was a text conversation

46:10

with a

46:13

really old friend of mine and it was just

46:14

I was like,

46:17

I can't believe they just sent me that. That's like

46:19

the most ridiculous thing. Flabbergasted.

46:23

I was flabbergasted by the guy

46:23

that that would just to.

46:26

Share now what was said. now I comment

46:28

I actually can't. It is is just too much.

46:33

It's too much

46:33

but the that were genuine

46:37

and what they were saying they were trying to give advice basically they were trying

46:39

to give advice. And

46:43

I was just like

46:45

there was no skill, no etiquette and how you did this,

46:47

I like I was shocked

46:49

that they actually sent

46:51

through what they sent through. And so I think like

46:53

the medium really matters.

46:55

And so even if the if you have like

46:57

the genuine this,

46:59

the the quality

46:59

of the conversation,

47:02

the realness, the

47:02

phoniness, the scamming.

47:05

So the just

47:05

yeah, I'd say realness,

47:07

just as a quality

47:07

degrades, if the medium

47:11

is imperfect. So so in real life

47:16

I don't know does anything beat

47:17

in real life in your

47:19

in your in your eyes or do you even agree

47:20

with this?

47:23

I do agree. I think the principle of,

47:25

you know, as you mentioned, from real life to video

47:26

to phone call or audio

47:29

to text and all that, Obviously the app up, the food

47:31

chain, you are the more

47:34

realistic, the conversation. I guess I'm just trying to

47:36

put it into other words.

47:38

I guess there's an essence and a

47:42

multitude of information

47:42

that I guess arrives

47:45

in a conversation

47:45

when you're

47:47

able to be in person

47:47

or video

47:49

that doesn't when it's

47:49

an audio and text phone.

47:52

So of course, when text, you know,

47:53

getting the body,

47:56

the you know, the body positioning

47:58

and the way the eyes are dotting

47:59

or the sweating or the you know,

48:01

as Lena mentioned, the the things that, you know,

48:03

they're not saying. But can you hear them

48:04

so well? Of course you're going

48:06

to see them in text. I have no idea

48:07

what that potentially is.

48:10

So, yes, you're missing a lot of that

48:11

valid that's available

48:12

in just information as part of the mode

48:14

that happens.

48:16

But I

48:16

think that there also is a

48:21

it's kind of like

48:21

a middle ground in that

48:23

the more rudimentary

48:23

the mode gets

48:27

and this might not be global so challenges, but

48:28

I think for me more light

48:31

I'll say it

48:31

this way for me,

48:33

if I'm in like in-person

48:33

one on one with a person

48:38

in real world, I'm not talking a digital world

48:39

or something, I can get 80% of the time.

48:44

Not that not everyone,

48:44

but I can get to

48:46

general good conversations

48:46

or a deep conversation

48:49

if I want to. If we need to get to our

48:49

position, It can be hard.

48:52

And I like that it's you can get the input

48:53

from the other person,

48:55

from, you know,

48:55

all all different ways.

48:58

However,

48:58

when it comes into like

49:01

video and audio formats,

49:01

at least for me,

49:04

I do find it

49:04

challenging to do that.

49:06

Now, this is just personally, I don't know, bother me more like kind of agree

49:08

with what even you do.

49:11

But I I'm not great in

49:13

having a phone conversation with someone

49:14

and getting deep or getting real or talking

49:16

something.

49:18

I was talking to a

49:18

business colleague of mine

49:21

today or the fine and the way that I would

49:23

generally interact

49:26

with them in

49:26

a face to face, sort of in

49:29

wasn't the same through an audio. I could tell

49:30

you could tell that it wasn't as genuine,

49:32

there wasn't as much of a

49:35

care factor,

49:35

was more transactional.

49:37

Maybe it could be said, however, when you go

49:39

kind of one more rung down

49:39

to text messaging,

49:43

all of a sudden it improves. Yeah,

49:44

the ability to get deeper.

49:47

Again

49:47

or the ability to connect

49:49

at a more genuine level. Now, I don't know

49:52

why that is,

49:52

because there's less

49:54

touch points and less ability, but I would say

49:56

it has something to do

49:56

with in person.

50:00

Fantastic to top

50:00

of the food chain, I'd say

50:02

before for whatever, at least personally. For me, yes.

50:06

Video in Texas, video and audio are great

50:07

and Texas maybe goes down

50:09

low and certain

50:09

amount of inputs,

50:12

but for whatever reason,

50:12

I can use text to kind of

50:15

elevate the connection,

50:15

maybe because it removes

50:18

some of the touchpoints

50:18

that make it awkward.

50:22

And not all of. Connection. So yeah, I'll tell

50:26

you that I don't know if that resonates

50:26

with people, but at least I'll be counter that.

50:29

It does for me, man, because

50:30

when I was thinking of

50:33

this, even just like this

50:33

video call, I'm

50:35

kind of like it's a slight degradation,

50:36

but for me,

50:39

some of the skills

50:39

are better

50:41

because I don't have to,

50:41

for example,

50:44

worry about eye contact

50:44

or lack of eye contact.

50:47

It's a bit more natural to be like

50:48

looking around the room. If you're on a

50:50

you're on a video call or you're looking at your screen.

50:52

So there's not

50:52

not this like directness

50:55

that's there for text.

50:58

For me, I'd probably be like,

50:58

you know, real life is still

51:01

probably the best as long as I'm in the zone, I'm really comfortable

51:03

with the person that that's

51:05

probably the most genuine. I'll get video call.

51:08

It's a degradation down,

51:08

but it's not too much.

51:11

It's a little bit audio only.

51:13

Once again, I think by my skills

51:16

probably lend me

51:16

towards that

51:18

or the cutting

51:18

out of a lot of bullshit

51:20

actually add

51:20

something to that for me.

51:23

And while still a step

51:23

down, it's not too much.

51:26

But then when it gets

51:26

to text like boom,

51:29

I just plummet. Man. I'm not not great at text,

51:32

not great at emails,

51:32

not my forte

51:36

way, way

51:36

too easy to misinterpret

51:38

the tone for myself

51:41

of what someone else is saying. So yeah, no,

51:43

I get what you mean

51:43

with it, where it changes.

51:45

And that probably is just based on your skills

51:46

as a person as well.

51:49

And what you're good at

51:52

is here's another one for you. So I was listening to

51:55

Andre and synopsis

51:55

and someone was.

51:58

Currently consuming every single piece of content he's

52:00

created in this month. Since I unsubscribe,

52:03

which was about May of

52:06

last year. So I've got about like

52:06

eight months to get through

52:08

eight or nine months. And he had this question.

52:12

Someone was asking him like, Are you ever going to have

52:13

on Jemmy song? Who's another

52:16

Bitcoin person to

52:16

to like talk about a topic

52:19

that they disagreed with? And he was like,

52:21

nah, because that's that's

52:21

going to be a debate.

52:24

And debates in his mind

52:24

don't illuminate

52:26

that the more

52:26

a battle of personalities,

52:29

rather than getting to like the heart

52:30

or truth of the matter.

52:34

It because both sides

52:34

come in with very

52:39

there's what debates are there's a there's a single statement

52:40

or touch point

52:43

and then one side

52:43

has to argue good for that

52:46

and one side has to argue bad for that, against it

52:47

for and against.

52:50

And this is

52:50

like the classical debate

52:54

thing that you'll see in schools

52:54

and stuff like this

52:57

when it comes to one, it's

52:57

probably a little bit

53:00

different because whilst they might

53:01

be on the opposing sides

53:04

of an issue, I'm sure that they both have a bit more nuance.

53:07

So it wouldn't be full on.

53:09

But I can definitely see

53:09

that there's, there's

53:12

the format of why you're

53:12

coming into something.

53:16

Another example, I had a chat with Trevor

53:18

Bell yesterday and

53:20

it'll be getting released

53:20

after this.

53:22

And Trevor is a

53:28

he called me up on this a couple of times because I just got

53:31

caught in the habit of thinking of this as saying he's not A.V,

53:32

but he's definitely anti

53:36

Bitcoin and using that

53:36

method in the apps or,

53:41

or at the very least

53:41

maybe not

53:43

even anti or that he's,

53:45

he just thinks the emphasis on

53:46

that is way too much

53:48

and there should be more

53:48

talking

53:50

about the PayPal option

53:50

or things like this and

53:55

Trevor is actually

53:55

a lawyer so his his

53:58

he knows his way around words and he knows

53:59

how to have a more debate

54:03

or argumentative style

54:03

conversation.

54:07

I don't believe he was like a barrister or anything, but,

54:08

you know, just just the fact

54:10

that he's a lawyer lent him more to being

54:15

more comfortable with conflict. Perhaps, or better

54:16

in these sorts of cases.

54:18

And he was very much

54:18

playing a devil's advocate

54:21

sort of role with, with me

54:21

on on that conversation

54:25

that we had, I would still rate

54:26

the genuine level of of it

54:30

still pretty high, but it was once again,

54:31

it was like,

54:34

you know, he he came in with something like a little bit to prove

54:35

and so did I. I came at something to be

54:37

like, you know, go V for me.

54:41

And so it probably

54:42

took away like the full,

54:46

the full 100% of it.

54:48

Another reason

54:48

would be like

54:50

that was the reason

54:50

that it came on

54:53

to talk about it. And I wouldn't normally

54:56

have him on as a guest

54:56

because,

54:58

you know, his interests

54:58

get get there.

55:00

So the tagline of his

55:00

podcast is

55:04

Sex politics, religion

55:04

and or sorry news,

55:08

sex, politics, religion,

55:08

something like that.

55:11

And I'm like, Damn, that's the four things

55:12

I care about

55:13

the least in this world. That's that's not up

55:14

my alley at all.

55:17

So he came on for a very

55:17

specific purpose.

55:20

I think it still went pretty well, but it was still

55:25

yeah, it was it was still like it had a little bit

55:26

of a debate type tinge to it as well,

55:28

which. Yeah, look, I was going to

55:29

say on the bait,

55:32

I think to be the most

55:32

effective conversation

55:35

and you kind of have to have a mediator to the debate,

55:36

then I'd say, okay,

55:40

that maybe lends itself

55:40

to a better approach in

55:43

the sense of, yeah, you're going to have

55:44

someone trying cunning, but then you have

55:46

a mediator the might.

55:48

Less less trying to score

55:48

points for example.

55:51

Yeah. Let's trying

55:52

to one up each other as opposed to okay

55:55

we've we've triangulated

55:55

to a narrower perspective

55:58

where we've agreed or disagreed on things. Fantastic.

56:02

Here's

56:04

one one of my summaries

56:04

I was coming to

56:07

with conversations. Right is

56:10

in the end,

56:12

depending on the viewpoint

56:12

of what people say,

56:14

there's conversations,

56:14

obviously where one on one

56:16

you might have in private with someone. But as they start

56:18

getting more public,

56:21

others are being shared

56:21

more broadly.

56:24

It's for debate in terms

56:24

of who is watching it,

56:27

who is listening, and how,

56:27

how much genuineness is

56:31

taken from it, how much someone think

56:31

it's a pseudo conversation,

56:33

how much something is not

56:35

an example. Here again, once again

56:37

is can't listen

56:37

to a little bit,

56:40

a little bit of the Emil

56:40

conversation that I have

56:43

on the podcast. I'm 102

56:45

and you listen to it for a little bit

56:46

and then you're like, not his style is not,

56:48

not up my alley.

56:50

I don't like his style. There's there's

56:52

a difference to a start, whether it's because

56:55

pseudo conversation

56:55

or not, it's more of a

56:58

hey, it's just the style,

56:58

the topic, the idea.

57:00

Not for me, not the way that I want to like,

57:02

consume that information. But then I had

57:05

other commentary feedback

57:07

coming in about shit

57:07

that was really good.

57:11

Like I really enjoyed listening

57:12

to that conversation. That was

57:14

that was a meaningful tone as you can hear genuine

57:16

like direct feedback

57:19

I was getting and I guess

57:20

talking about it from, from this perspective,

57:22

I go when you put it

57:22

into the public sphere,

57:26

there's always going to be

57:26

the challenge

57:29

that even any conversation

57:29

you even might have that

57:32

you feel like this was

57:32

pretty genuine between me

57:34

and even the other person says, Yeah,

57:36

this is pretty genuine. This is a deep

57:37

conversation. You, you,

57:39

you're undoubtedly going to have someone out there. That guy by now is shit.

57:41

That was pseudo.

57:43

No, I think. I think you can have

57:46

the point where I would be like, I didn't like it,

57:49

so I didn't like it at all, but I wouldn't have called

57:52

that a pseudo conversation and I just didn't

57:55

like his style and you know, well,

57:57

I might not like what

57:57

he's saying or even the

58:01

the debate or the

58:01

the not the debate, but,

58:04

you know, his arguments

58:04

for whatever it is saying

58:07

or if they're trying to

58:07

prove a point or if it's

58:09

the data behind it

58:09

or something like that.

58:11

So I think you can

58:11

dislike something

58:14

and it could still be a real genuine conversation

58:16

between two people and I and me personally,

58:17

I just don't.

58:20

That's the. Point. That's good point. But I guess I would

58:22

I guess the

58:25

the differentiation. I was trying

58:26

to make a claim there was you going to

58:27

whether it's a

58:31

likeable thing or not likeable thing. I think once you put

58:33

into the public sphere,

58:35

it's on. It's just a time basis

58:36

when someone's

58:38

going to come across that

58:38

and feel like that.

58:40

That wasn't genuine. And I'm sure if this was

58:43

out long enough and enough people listened to it,

58:44

some would think, Hey

58:47

you guys, that's not genuine yet. Yeah,

58:48

you're not really talk. It feels like you're

58:50

holding back. You're

58:51

talking about genuinely. And you're trying to do

58:53

they're trying to.

58:55

Sort through something. So you're doing. It for

58:56

clout and the mere models.

58:58

Yeah. And so part of me goes

59:03

in, at least in the public

59:03

sphere,

59:05

if you if someone's

59:06

listening to this or you're kind of trying

59:08

to get to a point where, hey, I want to have

59:10

conversations with people

59:11

that I'm sharing are going to be seen as

59:12

deep, genuine, authentic,

59:16

never going to be treated

59:16

as pseudo

59:18

good luck that would happen. That just will not happen.

59:20

Given enough time and enough people listening to it. I will give a -1%

59:22

for any conversation

59:25

that is made public just because

59:27

of it'll have a somewhat

59:27

of a performative

59:31

aspect to it,

59:31

I think. Yeah, for sure.

59:33

The closest I like so maybe I'll I'll be

59:36

to give an example

59:36

for people at home

59:39

the probably

59:39

the most authentic

59:42

genuine

59:44

really there

59:44

for the conversation one

59:47

that I've had was the one, the second one I did

59:48

with Taaffe

59:50

at my place,

59:50

because it was in essence

59:54

a continuation of the conversations that we were having

59:55

already on Iran.

59:58

It was there was some back

59:59

and forth, as I think,

1:00:01

and gave some feedback around. It was the closest

1:00:02

I've had in terms of,

1:00:04

hey, that was a genuine conversation

1:00:05

and if I can replicate

1:00:07

that a lot more, awesome. But again, there's

1:00:09

someone out there that might believe that

1:00:12

it wasn't that

1:00:12

for whatever reason,

1:00:14

I kind of get to a summary of as much

1:00:15

as you want to try. Yeah, if you're putting it

1:00:17

in the public sphere, you kind of have to give

1:00:19

yourself a negative of, of

1:00:19

genuine is just for the,

1:00:22

just for doing that. Yeah.

1:00:22

Yeah. Definitely.

1:00:24

Then I got to say

1:00:24

like I still got a

1:00:26

bunch of notes here. I'll try and get them all, but we haven't talked

1:00:30

about multiple people

1:00:30

and how that can

1:00:32

somewhat turn chaotic

1:00:32

and whether a

1:00:35

because you know, conversations you can have

1:00:36

between multiple people this definitely one where

1:00:40

the skill wise I suck at

1:00:40

and it's not my forte.

1:00:44

I went to a bitcoin

1:00:44

made up on Thursday and

1:00:47

what I really like about them is, you know,

1:00:49

the presentations are somewhat interesting,

1:00:51

but they're not.

1:00:53

Most I go into

1:00:55

when I'm like, I'm not there for the presentation,

1:00:57

I'm there for the kind of chats with people.

1:01:00

And I met some cool people

1:01:00

and you know, that was

1:01:02

right in the after bit. That was, that was like

1:01:03

the after event, I guess.

1:01:06

And we're in small groups

1:01:06

and you know, people

1:01:08

just tend to break off

1:01:08

and certain things.

1:01:11

I was with two other guys

1:01:11

and we were chatting

1:01:13

and that was that was really great. And we're talking about

1:01:14

like all sorts of things

1:01:16

tech, technical topics,

1:01:16

jokes, chit chat.

1:01:19

It was it was a bit

1:01:19

all over the shop

1:01:21

once again, not,

1:01:21

not my best.

1:01:24

And so skill wise

1:01:24

and the reason aside,

1:01:26

I like it, I certainly

1:01:26

suffered for it.

1:01:31

And then that was like

1:01:31

the after after event.

1:01:33

And so this is when like

1:01:33

we're all leaving

1:01:35

while lot of people have already left and there's

1:01:36

five of us left and we go down there

1:01:38

and, you know, you know how, you know,

1:01:41

females and males tend to split off

1:01:41

into their own little groups

1:01:43

and things like that. But that's

1:01:45

what had happened before. But on the way down,

1:01:47

I was with the two

1:01:50

females remaining

1:01:50

and then those two guys

1:01:53

and they started

1:01:53

talking and men like

1:01:56

we went everywhere. And when I say we, I meant

1:01:59

I mean they did

1:01:59

because I put in maybe

1:02:02

like two two words out of

1:02:06

15 minutes,

1:02:06

20 minutes, but

1:02:10

not, not once again,

1:02:10

not my forte.

1:02:12

And it's because like just the style of

1:02:13

the conversation was was

1:02:16

was everywhere, though, You know, they'd go

1:02:18

from like global climate,

1:02:21

global climate warming, whether that's a scam

1:02:22

or not. Talking about Bitcoin,

1:02:24

then I'll be on to like,

1:02:26

you know, who are the people who are secretly

1:02:27

controlling the world and then back to Bitcoin

1:02:30

and then on to this other thing. And I was just like,

1:02:31

I can't the way

1:02:34

they were talking as well was, was, was like,

1:02:35

you know, very strong,

1:02:37

you know, just

1:02:37

putting things out there.

1:02:39

And I just went like,

1:02:39

I've nothing to

1:02:42

really participate here. And if I did

1:02:45

try and participate, it would be me just trying to participate

1:02:47

just to get my voice in,

1:02:50

because I don't really I can't I'm not I'm not

1:02:52

great at just stating like

1:02:57

a something that I'm very

1:02:57

certain of or sure of.

1:02:59

And then just like letting that slide

1:03:00

or things like that. So

1:03:04

the chaotic ness

1:03:04

I think of

1:03:07

of group ones don't, don't lend for me

1:03:09

for realness, although I think,

1:03:11

I think they can be more real and yeah,

1:03:13

some other ways for.

1:03:15

I just trying to

1:03:15

think. Of.

1:03:17

You know what I think I'd be probably pretty good at.

1:03:19

Was that I. Reckon I could be

1:03:20

a good orchestra maestro.

1:03:23

Yeah. And I think and I say that

1:03:24

in the sense that

1:03:28

in a similar way,

1:03:30

navigating conversations

1:03:30

amongst multiple people,

1:03:33

there's definitely

1:03:33

an art of orchestra,

1:03:36

of orchestrating

1:03:36

what's going on.

1:03:38

And that definitely falls

1:03:41

much more on

1:03:41

the skill set versus the

1:03:45

the genuineness

1:03:45

when it's one on one.

1:03:47

You know, as long as you being genuine and authentic and you're

1:03:49

driving your point and you're

1:03:50

talking from the heart, whatever you want

1:03:51

to call it, easy enough, you can get to that point

1:03:54

as long as the other person on the other side or the other entity

1:03:55

wants to do that, cool.

1:03:58

You'll get there. When you've got multiple

1:03:59

people. It's a skill set.

1:04:01

It's very much a practised

1:04:01

skill set of.

1:04:04

When do you interject

1:04:04

that you're saying when?

1:04:06

When do you not

1:04:06

when do you know when to

1:04:09

pick up the train trombones and how you

1:04:10

the drums Indigo here.

1:04:13

I don't know if you've ever picked up when I do this

1:04:15

sometimes in amongst our friendship group, but

1:04:16

I do as well groups where

1:04:20

especially with really choir groups and I've had this

1:04:22

kind of a recently, you know, it's

1:04:23

just knowing like, hey,

1:04:25

we've hit a lull here. You kind of know

1:04:27

like, cool, I need to go around

1:04:28

the ground here and get answers

1:04:30

from everybody or I need to go do this.

1:04:32

You kind of know where where you have to get

1:04:33

the song going, where you get the music flowing.

1:04:36

It's just what it is,

1:04:38

but it's a skill set. Again, I'm saying

1:04:40

some of these things, but it just it's just

1:04:41

a practice of doing it. Fricken Honestly,

1:04:43

at this point, thousands of times.

1:04:46

In fact, I would have

1:04:46

to say that out of

1:04:50

I've been in a position

1:04:50

where I essentially run

1:04:53

a daily session of this,

1:04:53

where I basically

1:04:56

get people to talk in a group right? And there

1:04:59

would be, I'd probably say

1:05:02

out of five years

1:05:02

of working days at sites,

1:05:05

let's say 150 days,

1:05:05

at least five years.

1:05:08

You know, it's more it's

1:05:08

more than

1:05:12

500 days

1:05:12

that I've done this.

1:05:15

Day in, day out of that example. So, you know,

1:05:17

you just take is some skill set

1:05:18

that is just

1:05:20

ingrained in me now that I've done for a very long time.

1:05:23

But I think when it comes

1:05:23

to the multiple to get to

1:05:26

what I guess you can more genuine conversations

1:05:28

or more well-orchestrated

1:05:28

questions

1:05:30

like conversations, I think that that is a

1:05:33

just a repetition

1:05:33

skill set piece.

1:05:36

If you're the conductor,

1:05:36

I would be the perfect

1:05:39

audience member. I'm going to sit there,

1:05:40

I'm going to observe. I might do

1:05:42

like a little cough

1:05:45

every now and then. And then if someone does

1:05:46

something amazing or something

1:05:48

awesome happens, I'll be,

1:05:50

you know, Bravo, bro.

1:05:53

So that's definitely more

1:05:53

my my pot

1:05:56

and that more comes out okay. I like it last, last

1:05:57

best before I get onto my summary,

1:05:59

the genuine. This is two examples

1:06:02

of what I think are like

1:06:06

really non-genuine ones

1:06:06

and really genuine ones

1:06:08

and perhaps even a bit more examples of how

1:06:10

you can make it genuine. I was coming home from my

1:06:14

my parents with my brother

1:06:16

and we had 30 minutes

1:06:16

just to talk and,

1:06:18

you know, were talking about how mom was going,

1:06:19

how we're going. And, you know, he was

1:06:22

he was worried about me, basically. And so he was just like

1:06:26

kind of probing a couple of questions, asking me if stuff

1:06:27

And it was it was it was

1:06:31

not an unpleasant

1:06:31

but it was definitely like

1:06:33

a kind of hard

1:06:33

conversation in some ways.

1:06:35

And it at the end of it,

1:06:35

I was like,

1:06:40

you know, nothing really got resolved. We talked about things,

1:06:41

you know, he made me

1:06:44

aware of what he was

1:06:44

feeling in some respects

1:06:47

and, you know,

1:06:47

like some concerns for me.

1:06:49

And I was like, okay,

1:06:49

you know, that

1:06:51

that was 100% real because like, I know he cares for me,

1:06:54

even if it's stuff that I might not want to

1:06:55

hear, stuff that I might

1:06:57

disagree with. He was

1:07:00

100% real

1:07:00

and he was doing it in

1:07:03

like the skilful way that he did. It was not just like

1:07:06

blurting out,

1:07:06

You should do this. It was

1:07:08

it was like, Have you

1:07:08

thought about this?

1:07:10

I know you're not particularly. I've noticed this when it

1:07:13

when it comes to you, you don't really appreciate

1:07:15

these sorts of things.

1:07:18

another one, a girl at the gym who I was having like,

1:07:20

a shitty day.

1:07:23

I'd seen it before. I wasn't going to

1:07:24

particularly talk to her, but I was like, whatever,

1:07:26

I'll talk to Zoe. So I was like, Hi, Zoe.

1:07:29

And then she's just

1:07:29

so genuine.

1:07:31

That was, was what I got out of her. Like she lifted my spirits

1:07:33

by just being like

1:07:35

a really happy

1:07:35

kind person.

1:07:37

I was like, I don't know this girl,

1:07:38

like, I know my brother,

1:07:41

but the feeling

1:07:43

kind of that I got out

1:07:43

from both of those was,

1:07:46

Man, that was that was really good. I'm glad that happened.

1:07:49

I really, really enjoyed that. Maybe not

1:07:52

even really enjoyed that, but I came out of it

1:07:54

being like that was real.

1:07:56

That was a real thing

1:07:56

that just happened.

1:07:58

On the other hand, and I wanted to ask you

1:07:59

about this was the coal

1:08:01

can't come out.

1:08:03

So when I was

1:08:03

in the mining industry,

1:08:06

there was set deadlines. You know, the coals got to come out

1:08:08

by this date and

1:08:11

this time or something. And then, you know, rain

1:08:12

events will happen, breakdowns, machines,

1:08:13

scheduling stuff.

1:08:16

And, you know, I have to I have to tell someone

1:08:17

like, hey, like we have to

1:08:19

change the schedule up

1:08:21

like this. This can't come at this date. And then they'll be like,

1:08:22

yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:08:25

It's got to come out and say, okay, well now

1:08:28

we could move this around,

1:08:28

we could change this up.

1:08:31

You know, we had some extra

1:08:31

resources and it's like,

1:08:35

yeah, now it's like it's

1:08:35

got to come out or like,

1:08:37

you know, we've got a blast, we've got to do this,

1:08:38

we've got to do that. And it's like kind of

1:08:40

counter to reality.

1:08:42

And I want to ask you

1:08:42

about your

1:08:45

version of this because you experienced like something really

1:08:47

similar recently, right? Which is like products

1:08:50

going to be delivered

1:08:50

at this certain time.

1:08:52

You're like, it can't be done. I can do couple of weeks

1:08:54

after that.

1:08:56

And they're like, No, no, it's got to be. Then you're like,

1:08:58

All right, well, with some extra resources,

1:08:59

it could be done like that.

1:09:02

And I like is just going to be done. This is going to be done.

1:09:05

Okay. Well, it's it's

1:09:05

not going to get done.

1:09:07

And then it's kind of

1:09:07

just like left at that.

1:09:10

What the fuck is that? What kind of is that?

1:09:12

I'm close to the non

1:09:12

realness as you can get.

1:09:16

Yeah. And I think this is

1:09:16

and this, this is a

1:09:20

this probably I'll try to extrapolate it

1:09:20

so when I'm talking to you specifically

1:09:22

from a work context

1:09:24

but I think there's

1:09:24

a so the genuine layer of

1:09:29

having conversations

1:09:29

the expectation

1:09:32

and you mentioned earlier

1:09:32

when the expectations

1:09:37

are so far apart between

1:09:41

what the conversation

1:09:41

is about it.

1:09:44

Case in point here

1:09:44

is these conversations.

1:09:47

One party's coming in

1:09:47

with the mindset of

1:09:51

I've either promised something or I have the expectation

1:09:54

that that's going to be met at a certain date or something's

1:09:55

going to happen when the other party

1:09:58

or entity is coming in

1:09:58

with, Hey,

1:10:00

I'm coming in with a genuine conversation about why

1:10:02

this won't be done, why there's a block,

1:10:04

why there's an issue.

1:10:07

And so again, going back to the first point is there's two parties

1:10:09

coming into this

1:10:11

with completely different outcomes. Once just

1:10:12

in the mindset of

1:10:14

Hey said date has to be met, the other person's

1:10:16

coming in with a Hey,

1:10:18

let's have a conversation about a conversation about why

1:10:20

this can't be done and what we're going to do

1:10:22

from here. And you're essentially

1:10:23

just not, not talking to each other

1:10:26

is just this absolutely

1:10:26

complete makes up.

1:10:28

Whereas you're saying with a couple other examples

1:10:29

is, you know, one party saying,

1:10:32

hey, here's the issues about why we can't do this,

1:10:33

but we can try and do it from X,

1:10:35

Y or Z or whatever,

1:10:37

and the other person basically doesn't doesn't forget that

1:10:39

this guys okay, cool. But it's still going

1:10:41

to be met by the state. So you got to do that.

1:10:43

Yeah, it's like no one's

1:10:43

listening. Now.

1:10:46

You could take from both parties and one could listen

1:10:47

to the other and go, okay,

1:10:48

I understand the, the

1:10:50

dates being put, we fluctuated some other way.

1:10:54

Can we get 80% of the coal out rather than 100%

1:10:56

of the call out? Yeah,

1:10:57

but I it's just a that's a

1:10:59

it happens with a

1:10:59

completely missing of the

1:11:04

the outcome. Are you coming in

1:11:04

or the expectation of it. I think it drives

1:11:06

just a crazy for any conversation.

1:11:09

Yeah. I had written down

1:11:11

aligned incentives perhaps is what makes

1:11:12

for a good conversation.

1:11:16

When I was chatting with my brother. You know both of us are

1:11:18

concerned about my health

1:11:20

or my my well-being and the well-being

1:11:21

of our family as well.

1:11:24

So that that's one of those,

1:11:25

you know, driving forces.

1:11:27

And you can you know, you can have work

1:11:28

conversations where

1:11:30

you're both

1:11:30

aiming towards a goal

1:11:32

and perhaps you're in the same team and you're like, you know,

1:11:34

the goal is reaching

1:11:36

90% productivity

1:11:36

or whatever it is.

1:11:39

And so you're trying to you don, most to

1:11:40

to like focus on that one

1:11:44

goal and like, let's get it, let's do it. And you can have the

1:11:48

opposite, which is perhaps you're in competition and that's

1:11:49

where they don't align.

1:11:53

You know, my incentives over here,

1:11:53

yours is over here. And so

1:11:56

that yeah, once again, they're talking about

1:11:58

this thing over here and you're talking about

1:12:00

this thing over here and it's just like

1:12:01

not buying up. How even get to the point

1:12:03

that in saying yeah if you're

1:12:06

if you're that state in

1:12:06

any type of conversation,

1:12:09

then you're almost better off not having a conversation.

1:12:11

You're almost better off

1:12:11

at just sending each other

1:12:15

in a very low

1:12:15

fidelity way,

1:12:17

what you're

1:12:17

wanting to get across

1:12:19

and send it out to the author and let it be consumed

1:12:21

at the pace that someone else can

1:12:24

and let them send that

1:12:24

out, as opposed to just

1:12:26

what it would be. Just wasting time

1:12:27

because not no one's

1:12:28

listening to each other. It's just

1:12:30

people are just putting hot air into the world

1:12:31

and wasting energy.

1:12:34

Yeah. All right. Here we go. My ranking system

1:12:37

much, much promised and delivered, so I'd consider anything

1:12:39

above

1:12:42

75 and 80% as a worthy.

1:12:45

I'd consider that

1:12:45

a passing grade.

1:12:47

So I've gotten dog lady

1:12:47

0% old friend texting 12%.

1:12:54

The work kind of B.S. 23%.

1:12:57

Dave Asprey and Brian

1:12:57

Johnson 45%.

1:12:59

Come on, fellas,

1:12:59

pick up gym guy.

1:13:01

That was like 56%. The Bitcoin

1:13:04

after after it was 67%,

1:13:04

it was real.

1:13:08

But like, I just wasn't part

1:13:09

of the real ness of it.

1:13:12

Yeah, the bitcoin after

1:13:12

session where it was,

1:13:15

you know, groups of three or what

1:13:16

and things like that. 84%.

1:13:19

Tim Ferriss No. Cogan 90%.

1:13:22

My, my chat with Trevor

1:13:22

Bell 93%.

1:13:24

My brother 100%

1:13:24

and Jim girl,

1:13:26

just because she was cute,

1:13:26

she got 110%.

1:13:28

So that was one.

1:13:28

Hundred and 10% for.

1:13:31

So that was my ranking

1:13:31

system.

1:13:33

So I listened to them Immortals podcast. I don't. Know. Sorry.

1:13:37

Maybe my g them down.

1:13:41

They got a genuine

1:13:41

the genuine.

1:13:43

This is the conversation here is up absolutely

1:13:45

thrown them out. At. The side.

1:13:47

I don't know where that came from. Wow you just probably

1:13:48

just listening to this

1:13:52

right now I'm being like man, this dude was such an ass.

1:13:54

Talk to you. Do I make. A bit of it?

1:13:57

Well, how about you? Was a would you bother with

1:13:59

the ranking system at all?

1:14:03

I wouldn't

1:14:03

bother the ranking system,

1:14:05

but what I would bother

1:14:05

with is the cut-off,

1:14:09

the cut-off

1:14:09

where conversation is.

1:14:12

You can tell that a conversation is a conversation

1:14:14

and then either a

1:14:17

persisting in the conversation, but just not exerting any,

1:14:19

any maximal effort,

1:14:23

no care around. You know,

1:14:24

if it's a is an example.

1:14:27

Everyone knows that the conversation when you go

1:14:29

and buy a burger

1:14:33

from a McDonald's or something like that and you're going to buy

1:14:35

something and maybe you

1:14:37

maybe not even there, but when you go to a fast

1:14:38

food restaurant, maybe you exchange

1:14:40

some pleasantries. Yeah,

1:14:42

no one gives you shit. You know, you're there

1:14:43

for your transaction. Yeah, it's a transaction.

1:14:46

Here's the money. Give me some of it.

1:14:49

You can make that work. But to see the conversation, that's fine.

1:14:53

But when it's in areas like

1:14:55

just no way to detach, have the minimum amount of energy, say,

1:14:56

like, exist, exerting it

1:14:59

so that I guess on the opposite side you're putting in the

1:15:01

maximum effort, listening,

1:15:05

authenticity, being

1:15:05

genuine, maybe empathetic,

1:15:09

you know, telling the truth or as much as that

1:15:10

empathetically is a meet

1:15:13

for the conversations, because to do that

1:15:14

really well

1:15:16

takes a lot of energy, takes a lot of effort. Right?

1:15:19

If I was to go and have a conversation with a good friend of mine

1:15:20

or whatever it may be,

1:15:23

I might go there and go like, shit, This three things that I

1:15:25

really want to talk about

1:15:27

and you might not get through any of them because you know,

1:15:30

you're genuinely having a conversation about something else that they get along

1:15:32

and you never get that. So you also have to be

1:15:33

prepared for all of those eventualities

1:15:36

which do take some

1:15:36

some pure effort.

1:15:39

So I just say I'd be more concerned with

1:15:40

hitting a cut off where

1:15:44

I just go, hey,

1:15:44

I can can tell the

1:15:46

conversation and just see that either it's a default,

1:15:49

I'm just putting minimal energy or I'm going to eject

1:15:51

out of that as quickly as possible.

1:15:54

Yeah, I was kind of saying

1:15:54

like now,

1:15:56

probably in terms of length, most conversations you had

1:16:00

would be on the more genuine side above that 80% cut off

1:16:03

because the longer conversations

1:16:03

you're going to have with friends,

1:16:05

with family, well, the ones that are probably

1:16:07

going to be more aligned

1:16:08

on the incentives

1:16:10

and in terms of whatever

1:16:10

you're talking about and,

1:16:14

you know, unless you're

1:16:14

in a specific job or a specific industry

1:16:16

where

1:16:18

you're more likely to have

1:16:20

those kind of shallow conversations

1:16:21

or or you're in a really

1:16:24

competitive thing

1:16:24

and you're trying to sell

1:16:26

sell all the time or things like that, you're

1:16:27

probably by default, you're just likely

1:16:29

to have more genuine ones.

1:16:33

That being said, you can put in certain steps

1:16:35

to avoid types

1:16:39

with all of those ones

1:16:39

that were beneath my

1:16:41

my kind of 80% cut-off

1:16:44

I'd say like half of them

1:16:44

if I'd been more tactful

1:16:46

or if the people had been more tactful

1:16:48

and had a bit more skills,

1:16:50

they could have raised that up to to a to a higher level.

1:16:53

So yeah, the Bitcoin

1:16:53

after after session,

1:16:56

if I'd been a better participant or,

1:16:59

you know, better at being an audience member

1:17:00

rather than debating like,

1:17:03

should I try and say something here or no, that's kind of

1:17:04

like that sort of thing.

1:17:08

If I just kind of appreciated it

1:17:08

for what it was and been like an outside

1:17:10

observer,

1:17:12

that that would have been better. And so, for example,

1:17:16

I'm not going to walk buddies alone again. I didn't enjoy

1:17:18

those conversations,

1:17:20

didn't enjoy having being forced to it.

1:17:26

I equate it somewhat as being like,

1:17:28

I was the pretty girl for an hour or 2 hours

1:17:29

as I took him out

1:17:31

because no Bottas is adorable

1:17:32

and I saw the amount of

1:17:36

interactions and attention

1:17:36

that he was getting.

1:17:39

And then me by default,

1:17:39

being with him.

1:17:42

And I mean, I didn't

1:17:42

enjoy it actually.

1:17:44

Like, I quite I found it a little bit

1:17:46

stressful to us.

1:17:48

Take him out. So but you know, that's the

1:17:53

and another thing like,

1:17:53

you know, I quit work

1:17:56

partly because of office politics. You know, it was

1:17:58

it was a low percentage of why I did.

1:18:00

But there's a reason I do

1:18:00

this with you rather than

1:18:04

in a competitive sales

1:18:04

industry

1:18:07

or something like that, because I don't

1:18:08

enjoy them. So there's those

1:18:11

you can have a bit of a play if you improve

1:18:14

your skills,

1:18:14

if you put yourself

1:18:17

in certain situations that aren't you avoid or

1:18:18

have more of genuine ones

1:18:23

and but then others, I think you have to just stick to the gym, one

1:18:25

with the with old mate.

1:18:29

I don't think there was much I could have really done to have made

1:18:30

that an 80% conversation.

1:18:36

Yeah. Yeah. The certain. One way you.

1:18:38

Just, I mean you just got to have to plough through it.