0:00

Welcome Mere Mortalites to another round

0:01

of the conversations. Today I have Trevor Bell,

0:04

who is the host

0:04

co-host of The Iron Fist

0:06

and the Velvet Glove podcast, and also a solicitor

0:10

affectionately

0:10

known as Satan's Lawyer.

0:13

We might have to start off there, Trevor, because I think that's

0:16

such a like a funny,

0:16

fascinating thing

0:19

that how'd you get like the nickname

0:20

Satan's Lawyer? Well, I'm no longer,

0:22

I let my practising

0:25

certificate lapse.

0:25

So that's.

0:28

That's exactly what I'd expect from sentence lawyer.

0:29

Yeah.

0:31

So I was a normal

0:31

practising lawyer up

0:33

until 2000 and then I had

0:33

a midlife crisis and,

0:37

and got out of the law and did other things and unfortunately ended up

0:39

with Crohn's disease,

0:41

which triggered a midlife

0:41

crisis. So.

0:44

But in recent times I got interested in, in secular activism,

0:46

and that was really

0:49

looking at the privileges

0:49

that Christians

0:52

and other religions

0:52

have in our community

0:55

and in really objecting

0:55

to those privileges.

0:58

And one of the ways

0:58

of protesting that is,

1:04

is to adopt a model where

1:04

you become a Satanist

1:08

and then you demand

1:08

the same privileges

1:11

that Christians and Muslims and Jews and other traditional

1:13

religious groups enjoy.

1:17

And the funny thing that happens is that is that when you demand

1:19

those same privileges,

1:22

the authorities

1:22

suddenly decide

1:24

maybe it's not a good idea

1:24

for religions

1:26

to have

1:26

these privileges. So.

1:30

Long story short, there's

1:30

actually a provision

1:32

in the Education Act in Queensland that allows

1:34

ministers of religion

1:34

to go into schools

1:37

and preach to children

1:37

of their religion

1:40

for an hour a week,

1:42

and the rest of the class

1:42

has to go outside

1:44

and twiddle their thumbs,

1:44

waste their time,

1:46

which are objected to and so on in an application

1:48

in the Supreme Court too.

1:50

I remember that actually. Yeah,

1:51

that was I remember having those classes back in.

1:54

Yeah. When I was in

1:54

primary school and.

1:56

Which is what. What year was that? That was like 2000.

2:01

Yeah. Like 2000. 2000. Yeah.

2:04

Yeah. And did you sit

2:04

through the class or we.

2:06

Yes and no. My parents would have

2:07

signed the form saying,

2:11

like, he's not to be

2:11

taught religion, so.

2:14

Yeah. Yeah. I vaguely remember

2:15

sitting outside classes

2:17

twiddling my thumbs. They go, Yeah.

2:20

And so typically

2:20

in schools in Queensland,

2:23

you might have three kids

2:23

getting

2:25

a scripture lesson. And then the rest

2:26

of the class, the other 25

2:29

sitting outside are not

2:29

allowed to do curriculum,

2:32

just having to pick up papers out of the schoolyard

2:34

and stuff like that. So.

2:37

So anyway,

2:37

I made an application,

2:39

I mean part of agreed the noose, the Temple of Satan,

2:41

and we found some parents

2:44

who were willing to sign their kids up and to change their

2:46

enrolment to sign this

2:49

and put in the application

2:49

form to

2:52

to teach Satanism.

2:54

And funnily enough, the education Department

2:55

knocked this back and I took them

2:57

to the Supreme Court seeking

2:59

to have that overturned.

3:01

Unfortunately,

3:01

I lost. But yeah.

3:05

And it's a much longer story than that, but that's essentially

3:06

how it came about.

3:09

So that sort of activism

3:11

was what I was involved with. But yeah, I was just doing

3:14

like a little bit of research into that and yeah,

3:17

it is interesting when like people

3:18

get the wrong idea of,

3:21

I mean, I can see why

3:21

where it's like,

3:24

what the fuck the first core tenant

3:25

principle of Satanism is.

3:28

You don't actually believe in Satan,

3:29

is that the correct thing? So it's more

3:31

of a political.

3:33

Depends on that. Depends on the group.

3:36

So, you know, it's not even necessary to believe in

3:39

your religion in order to run

3:40

a religion. So

3:43

the Church of Scientology

3:43

here in Australia

3:47

was found to be completely

3:47

bogus in the sense

3:50

that the leadership did not believe in what they were teaching

3:52

and doing, yet

3:54

they were still climbing

3:54

all of these benefits

3:56

of being tax exempt

3:56

and stuff like that.

3:59

And the Victorian Supreme Court

4:01

and the High Court

4:01

found that

4:04

the leadership

4:04

of the Scientology group

4:06

were completely bogus. They were con men.

4:08

They didn't believe

4:08

what they were teaching,

4:12

but their followers,

4:12

they had enough followers

4:14

believing that

4:14

that it didn't matter.

4:16

And even though the leadership

4:16

was totally corrupt,

4:19

the organisation was

4:19

entitled to all of the tax

4:22

free benefits. So, you know,

4:24

like with all religions, there's a range of people. Some people are actually

4:26

believers. Most people in it

4:29

are are doing it for sort of secular

4:30

activism reasons.

4:33

Which was yeah. Which was your reasons. Yeah. Correct. Yeah.

4:36

Out of interest, how did they prove belief or non-belief?

4:39

Was it like internal communications or. Yeah, that's right.

4:43

They were able to question

4:43

people, stuff like that.

4:46

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

4:47

Interesting. Interesting. And that was all kind of

4:49

like pro bono, right?

4:51

That was just. Yeah, yeah, that was just

4:51

me doing my thing.

4:55

Yeah. Quite

4:55

stressful in the end.

4:57

So I imagine. Yeah, I can't,

4:59

I can't cause I imagine

5:01

you'd get backlash a fair bit of it from

5:02

those sorts of activities.

5:06

Yeah. Do you know when

5:06

speaking with the press.

5:08

Because we did lots of

5:08

press releases and things.

5:11

so much support

5:11

from your regular journos

5:14

like so many people. Got it. And really understood.

5:17

I see what you're doing, might love what you're doing

5:19

and we're very supportive

5:21

from, from the strangest of quarters. So, so 99% of,

5:25

of the journos

5:25

that we dealt with

5:27

were very supportive and loved it and of course made great

5:29

vision and TV news reports

5:33

and things like that.

5:33

Yeah. Okay.

5:35

And did

5:35

they present it in that

5:38

that way as well? Because I'm going to have

5:39

a conversation with one tomorrow

5:41

actually about it's kind of like,

5:43

I don't know how you describe it, fake conversations

5:44

when you're having a conversation with someone,

5:46

but it's like

5:48

there's nothing really

5:48

being talked about or it's

5:51

and like the classic example of this is like a work

5:54

a work situation where you're like,

5:55

okay, well, you know,

5:57

you need to deliver this thing by March. It's like, okay, well,

6:00

it's impossible

6:00

to get to before April

6:02

unless, like,

6:02

we add this extra,

6:04

like it's possible, but we need to add

6:05

in more, more resources

6:08

or we need to do this or do that. It's like,

6:09

no, you need to make it by March

6:11

with what you've got. And you're like,

6:12

Well, I can't do that. And then the conversation

6:15

kind of ends there

6:15

and it's like, Well,

6:17

you know, something's

6:17

going to happen in March.

6:20

It's probably not going to be pretty well with a journalist

6:22

like that where they like secretly kind of

6:23

like supportive for you

6:26

on their own and. Their reports

6:28

were pretty fair. Okay.

6:30

All right. That's one of the things we did was down the Gulf Coast,

6:32

the Lord mayor was

6:35

spruiking that his personal

6:37

assistant had done a done

6:40

this great thing by converting a storeroom

6:41

into a prayer room.

6:44

And this was

6:44

a great initiative.

6:47

She had been walking

6:47

around the grounds

6:49

near this near

6:49

the city hall or near the

6:53

the council hall,

6:53

and had felt a demonic

6:55

presence and felt the need

6:55

to create a prayer room.

6:59

And so this was touted

6:59

as a great move by

7:03

by the council. And so I,

7:06

I inquired and said, Look, I'm just

7:07

from a religious group. I'm interested

7:10

in hiring the prayer room

7:10

for my community.

7:14

And I didn't mention

7:14

where I was from.

7:16

And they said, sure,

7:16

no problem.

7:18

I said, Are you on this

7:18

Friday at this time?

7:20

Will that be fine? And they said, Yeah, no problem. You'll just have to

7:25

tell us the name of your organisation,

7:26

in the name of the people.

7:28

And, and so but yeah,

7:28

consider it done.

7:33

And we then of course

7:33

did a press release to the

7:36

newspapers and everybody

7:36

saying, isn't this great?

7:39

The City council is allowing Satanists

7:40

into the prayer. Room.

7:43

And, and of course great

7:43

uproar came from that.

7:46

And yeah,

7:46

the journalist loved it.

7:49

And I basically said

7:49

to the Lord Mayor,

7:53

well, you know, this would be hypocritical

7:53

not to let them.

7:56

And in the end,

7:59

for security reasons, decided nobody who didn't work

8:01

in the building could too

8:04

could enter the prayer room. So they effectively

8:06

closed down

8:06

the prayer room because

8:09

a group of Satanists were going to use it. So that was a classic example of satanic activism,

8:15

pointing out the hypocrisy and

8:16

and the privileges.

8:19

So, yeah, that was that

8:19

was a good win of sorts.

8:21

That was great. Fun.

8:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What else have you been

8:25

getting up to with your with your time after.

8:28

Not, not practising

8:28

I suppose with them.

8:31

you said you've got Crohn's disease. What. What.

8:33

I don't actually

8:33

really know what that is.

8:36

Basically

8:36

autoimmune disease where

8:38

your bowel breaks down.

8:41

So healthy tissue

8:45

like a ulcerative colitis

8:45

type thing.

8:48

So yeah, you know

8:48

all sorts of problems

8:52

with urine test on. So I had a major operation

8:54

and lost a large section

8:54

of bowel,

8:56

20 centimetres of small, down ten

8:58

centimetres of large bowel and I stitch it up again

9:01

and then give you some steroids

9:01

inside on your way and,

9:04

and at that point I really

9:04

wasn't enjoying the law

9:08

and it gave me an excuse

9:08

for a midlife crisis.

9:10

I now I unifor, I sell art supplies

9:11

and do podcasting

9:14

on the still on hand. Yeah.

9:17

It's a lot less,

9:17

a lot less stressful,

9:20

much more enjoyable. I mean, I try

9:21

and people talk people out of becoming a lawyer

9:24

because when people would come in to see me

9:25

when I was a lawyer,

9:27

they'd hate it. I'd have these long faces.

9:29

They knew it was going to cost them a lot of money. I didn't

9:31

want to be there yet. When I walk into a store

9:34

as a as a writ

9:34

for an art supply company,

9:37

they they want to see me. What's the latest thing

9:38

you got? Trevor, good to see you.

9:40

Some of your stuff, like it's a totally positive

9:42

experience. So.

9:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being a lawyer

9:46

is a crummy job. I don't recommend it

9:47

to anybody. So yeah, it's, it's

9:49

definitely one of those,

9:52

you know, the who you're surrounded with type of deals

9:54

and yeah, if you,

9:56

you're in this way I'm always amazed that

9:58

people like really get into the things like,

10:00

like nurses and doctors

10:04

I'm just like, man, you're just surrounded by sick people

10:05

all day. I would,

10:06

I would hate that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

10:09

But yeah, some people really thrive on it,

10:10

I guess as well. So I know there's the,

10:12

the probably more argument

10:15

to argumentative types

10:15

or perhaps people who

10:19

like a good battle, perhaps they and they make for better

10:20

lawyers. yeah.

10:22

There's so many jobs I would be ruled out instantly of

10:25

just because

10:25

of my general disposition.

10:28

Yeah. So now I, I'm famous for sort of

10:31

trying to talk young people out of doing law

10:33

if I hear they're about to sign up for it. So Yeah. Interesting.

10:36

What, what drew you to it

10:36

in the first place.

10:38

Because you have to duty

10:38

I think.

10:40

Yeah. LinkedIn initially I was,

10:41

I was more interested

10:44

in sort of human rights

10:44

sort of stuff

10:47

that and ethical questions

10:52

which unfortunately once you get in

10:53

and you do the degree and then you think, well,

10:55

I've got to make money and you go

10:57

and work for a law firm and get your

11:00

qualifications, and then you've got a family and you go to see them

11:03

and you end up

11:03

just following the path of

11:05

of being a regular

11:05

everyday lawyer.

11:07

But my sort of interest

11:07

was more in, in sort of

11:11

human rights

11:11

and ethical questions

11:14

initially, but that'll drop to the wayside

11:16

as life took over.

11:19

Yeah, it's a real shame because that's that's kind of like the

11:20

university system, right? So many people will go

11:22

into the arts or to.

11:27

Yeah, I mean just

11:27

generally non STEM degrees

11:30

and finding a way to

11:30

to make money

11:34

and for that passion

11:34

whether it be you know

11:38

gender studies if you're into that, whether it be

11:40

you know art history or you know,

11:40

medieval history, law

11:44

or philosophy, all those sorts of things. And then that's all right.

11:48

When the when the money time comes, it's

11:48

it's like, okay, there's

11:52

the studying is very different from putting it into practise.

11:54

Yeah. Yeah. So probably the podcast

11:56

I do now fills that

11:59

initial. Exactly. Yeah. Interest because you know,

12:00

we talk about news

12:03

and politics and sex and religion. So and often there's

12:05

sort of ethical questions

12:08

involved

12:08

in all of that and

12:11

so yeah, so

12:11

that sort of the podcast

12:13

sort of fills in that void

12:13

I think now nicely.

12:17

Yeah, yeah. That was probably my,

12:17

my like realisation

12:21

after uni as well,

12:21

which was

12:23

look, I kind of did it badly because I never

12:25

really got into the, what would you call it,

12:27

the university spirit. You know,

12:28

I didn't live on campus. I always viewed it

12:31

as kind of a get in,

12:31

get out type of deal.

12:34

And so I didn't perhaps

12:34

make full of the full

12:38

use of the networking

12:38

opportunities of the

12:42

sports,

12:42

of being surrounded by,

12:44

you know, just teenagers

12:44

and young, young twenties

12:48

people and making

12:49

lifelong friends

12:51

and all that sort of thing. Like for me it was like,

12:52

get the grades,

12:54

get in and get out, though. that's a shocking

12:55

impression. Yeah. Because it

12:57

can be the best years

12:57

of your life, really.

12:59

Minimum sort of responsibility, maximum freedom. And

13:04

that's where some

13:04

of the whole problem is.

13:06

And lots of people now are just used to

13:08

remote learning and they're not coming into the campuses

13:09

like they used to.

13:12

I don't think they have

13:12

in the same experience

13:15

that I had, which was a lot of fun. You know, with doing law,

13:16

we had maybe

13:19

12 contact hours

13:19

in the whole week.

13:22

So it was a lot of time spent in the coffee shop

13:24

just talking about stuff.

13:26

Yeah. Doing things okay

13:28

for me, for engineering,

13:28

it was 30.

13:31

I mean, in my first year it would have been like the mid-thirties

13:33

contact hours,

13:35

but it was just lectures,

13:35

tutorials

13:38

and what was it, contacts

13:38

or whatever.

13:41

And so I probably would have

13:42

really enjoyed Harvard

13:45

if I was at uni alone

13:45

because I wouldn't. Yes.

13:47

Thrived

13:47

on like remote learning,

13:50

lecture slides, online

13:50

tech my own time.

13:52

I ended up giving up going elections because I'm like not

13:54

learning health. Is this pointless for me?

13:58

This is not how I learn. So yeah, it's

14:00

just different experiences for people. But Yeah, yeah, I,

14:04

I think for me as well, it depends on where

14:05

you are in your life.

14:07

I was still angsty,

14:07

teenage

14:11

hadn't got my shit together and so I'm really trying

14:12

to think of a way where

14:16

a situation like even

14:16

if I had lived on campus,

14:20

I would have been probably

14:20

just like the guy

14:22

who just stays in his dorm

14:22

all night,

14:24

doesn't on and doesn't go out. So it's not,

14:26

it's not like the,

14:29

the what the problem was

14:29

me not not the environment

14:32

person.

14:32

What school did you go to.

14:34

Like high school or. Yeah I went to Springwood

14:35

State High School so.

14:38

Okay. Public school.

14:38

Yeah. Yeah.

14:41

yeah, yeah. So that was,

14:43

that was a good experience. My parents

14:44

were both teachers and so they, they,

14:46

didn't really

14:49

believe in the,

14:49

the private system.

14:51

I mean, I think they worked in both and were just like,

14:52

yeah, the outcomes are kind

14:54

of the same. You just save

14:56

a whole bunch of money.

14:58

Yeah, maybe you

14:58

needed a gap year or two

15:01

often. I, yeah, I,

15:04

I had my, I was kind of scared

15:05

of life, to be honest. Like,

15:07

I, I was very nervous of,

15:11

yeah, it's

15:11

like social interactions.

15:14

Getting a job would have

15:14

been like a very stressful

15:17

time for me, all that sort of stuff. So I'm not

15:18

if I had a gap year,

15:22

you know, it's always hypotheticals. I feel like

15:24

I would have wasted it, but I don't know.

15:26

I had a pretty big gap year after working and then,

15:28

and when I travelled,

15:31

Latin America. So it was later than most.

15:34

But you know, I was also wealthier and

15:37

had a bit

15:37

more knowledge of myself

15:39

and what I didn't didn't like. So I made better

15:40

use of it.

15:44

Just as an aside, we're really going down some rabbit holes here.

15:47

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. From the main topic, but I travelled in Central

15:48

and South America

15:52

as well. nice. Yeah, it would have been

15:53

about 1984, so.

15:57

that would have been a completely different

15:57

experience to me. Yeah, I've heard it was.

16:02

That was a real

16:02

big distinction between

16:04

kind of like pre-internet

16:04

and not in the sense of

16:07

and especially the smartphones pre premium smartphone

16:09

and not really because

16:13

the travel experience of you just

16:16

go somewhere and it's like all right

16:17

is this you know, Lonely planet or lonely

16:19

God correct right.

16:21

Let's just. South

16:22

America on a shoestring.

16:24

Yeah Planet. Guide. Yeah. Yeah. What what were your

16:26

experiences? Did you have any.

16:27

An interesting.

16:29

And. Tastic loved it

16:32

and spent

16:32

six weeks in Mexico.

16:35

Absolutely loved it. I think Mexico, by all

16:36

reports, is a lot more dangerous

16:37

now than it was then.

16:40

So could be.

16:42

I was there in 20

16:42

yet 2018.

16:46

I love the country still. I was in the kind of safer

16:49

parts which were, I guess

16:49

like the, the south,

16:54

very, very south

16:54

and to the, to the east.

16:56

So like south of Mexico

16:56

City and then into Cancun.

17:00

There's only a couple of states in there which

17:01

are like the iffy ones. I still saw some

17:04

things where I was like,

17:06

all right, police aren't really your friends there. Don't know, don't rely

17:08

on them for help. But,

17:13

yeah, it. Yeah, I'd have to get

17:14

your experience of what?

17:16

What you what you felt like a time where you're in Mexico

17:18

City. Is that where you. later.

17:21

Yeah. Or later. And you just

17:24

hop on a bus

17:24

and head to the next town?

17:27

I just had a little daypack. I had all my stuff

17:28

in a little daypack, so I didn't have

17:30

a big backpack so I could just

17:32

walk around all day and

17:34

with all my gear on me,

17:34

I mean, you just needed,

17:37

you know, four shirts,

17:37

four pairs of underpants,

17:41

Chains of shorts. Yeah. Do you washing at night

17:42

in the sink in the hotel

17:45

and then hit the road

17:45

the next day?

17:48

Yeah. No laptop, no phone, No,

17:48

no bulky stuff.

17:52

Yeah. Yeah.

17:54

And you couldn't communicate with your family back

17:55

home. Phone calls were really

17:57

expensive, and,

18:00

you know, if I'd have gone missing, they wouldn't have even

18:01

known what continent I was on my

18:02

line, what country.

18:05

So, yeah, yeah, it's a

18:07

different world back then.

18:09

Yeah. Yeah. So post written down.

18:11

So I would say, okay, I'm

18:11

going to be in Peru in

18:16

roughly this time. Just send a letter

18:17

to Trevor Bell post on in

18:20

Lima, Peru and you would go into the

18:21

main post office in Lima

18:25

and share your passport and say, Are there any letters

18:27

for me? And I would look in a box

18:28

somewhere and hand them to you.

18:31

Because you communicate. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

18:34

Just different times. At different times.

18:35

Well, yeah. The yeah.

18:38

Now I was like,

18:38

you know, my,

18:40

my dad was like, I'd appreciate if you could just send,

18:42

like a WhatsApp message every day

18:43

just to make sure you know

18:47

you're still alive. And,

18:49

you know, I had like regular kind of zoom,

18:52

zoom calls with my family

18:52

whilst I was going so

18:55

once a week sort of deal. So, yeah, very,

18:56

very different experience. What drew you

18:58

to Central America?

19:00

Everyone was going to Europe and I just wanted to go

19:01

somewhere different, like the traditional thing

19:03

was everyone just went, you know, just want to

19:04

do something different. So, you know,

19:08

that's why it's good to travel, though. Like I know in the

19:11

podcast now,

19:11

we often talk about,

19:15

you know, American

19:17

military interventions

19:17

around the world.

19:19

And I get particularly angry at the ones

19:20

in Latin America

19:22

and what's been done there by American

19:23

foreign policy,

19:25

just because I feel an affinity having travelled

19:27

in those countries.

19:30

So that's where it's

19:30

good for everybody

19:32

to do a bit of travel

19:32

and experience

19:35

other places and cultures

19:35

just to be aware of it.

19:39

And the resentment

19:39

was still there.

19:42

I, I still encountered

19:42

a lot of people not,

19:46

not happy with the Americans

19:46

for the, you know,

19:48

backing of this government or not, you know, the Sandinistas

19:51

or the Nicaraguans

19:51

or and Chile or not

19:55

Colombia. You know, you just, just list a country.

19:57

And there was a lot of

19:57

meddling going on

20:00

for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah,

20:02

I just finished reading Manufacturing Consent by

20:04

Noam Chomsky and Edwards.

20:08

Edwards Herman.

20:08

Yep. Vice versa. And,

20:11

yeah, yeah. Like they I hammer at home

20:13

and this was back, I think the book was

20:15

published in 1984 or something. So, you know,

20:17

it was fair while ago and

20:20

they really hammered home like, yeah, there's a,

20:21

there's a lot of like

20:25

shenanigans

20:25

and shenanigans going on

20:27

there. Yeah. The other one is Naomi

20:28

Klein's book,

20:32

Shock Doctrine, and that's

20:34

another good one to read.

20:36

If you want to. Hear about

20:37

what was inflicted. I can't say I enjoyed it.

20:41

Yeah, like reading

20:41

that stuff on I read.

20:44

I'll listen to bits of your review on that card. And I was going,

20:47

you were disappointed. And I was like, Well, what did you expect this

20:49

book to be about? Like, well.

20:52

This simple concept is one of the most important concepts

20:54

in modern times.

20:56

And you're like, Yeah. Well,

20:58

it was just the title.

21:00

It was like how the propaganda

21:01

kind of machine works.

21:03

So I was expecting,

21:03

you know,

21:06

three quarters of the book

21:06

would be on the actual

21:08

internal

21:08

kind of politicking, why,

21:11

you know,

21:11

why the media does these

21:14

certain things or does not

21:14

do these certain things,

21:17

whereas it was,

21:20

you know, three quarters of the book was on the actual news

21:21

stories happening

21:26

and not not about

21:26

how the media was covering

21:29

them up or covering them up,

21:29

but not

21:32

but portraying them in certain ways. I just felt it was

21:34

it was more of a history

21:34

book than it was an

21:37

an educational book

21:37

like Sense.

21:39

Like I was. Yeah, I was expecting something a bit different, but,

21:41

you know, so fine, fine

21:42

for what they were doing

21:44

and seem to have a fair

21:44

bit of an impact.

21:47

But yeah, for me, just reading it, I came into it

21:49

with a, a different

21:51

expectations of what

21:51

I would be finding in it.

21:55

But yeah, you know, it's, that's what I've,

21:57

I've read plenty of

21:59

books or books that

21:59

I didn't enjoy so much

22:01

and I get, I

22:05

Have you travelled. I'm actually planning on travelling to Brazil

22:07

in about two months time.

22:09

No, in all of Central

22:09

America.

22:12

But South America

22:12

was only Colombia.

22:15

Ecuador, three

22:20

didn't get to Chile

22:20

or across the other side.

22:22

So. Yeah. Yeah. And do you still have,

22:25

you know, like photos, fond memories, things that you

22:26

learned from that time?

22:30

not so much photos.

22:34

I only have about one or two photos, really,

22:38

but fond memories

22:38

whenever I think of it.

22:43

Yeah, it's

22:43

a great time in life, but

22:48

nothing concrete that comes to mind. Yeah. Yeah, I was,

22:50

because I was.

22:53

When I was travelling, I, I kept,

22:55

like, a little journal,

22:57

which I'd been doing

22:57

beforehand anyway,

22:59

and I've yet to go back and read it yet because I kind of

23:01

want to keep it

23:04

almost like hidden in a way. So I'll come back to it

23:06

in ten years time and be like,

23:08

I remember that thing.

23:10

And every now and then I still have moments

23:11

where I'll, I'll,

23:14

I'll think of like a,

23:14

a city that I went to and,

23:17

you know, helps having this map here cause I'm like, okay,

23:18

I remember going here and I remember

23:20

going there. And when I say a city,

23:21

I'll mean

23:23

like a small town

23:23

or something usually.

23:26

And then I'll go,

23:28

okay, there was this one particular street I used to walk down

23:29

all that, like this one place

23:31

I used to get, you know,

23:33

empanadas from or something and yeah, it'll bring

23:36

back some memories and I'll be like, yeah, that was really fun.

23:37

I remember that.

23:40

So, yeah, my, my,

23:40

my photos were also

23:43

pretty average. I had a pretty crappy phone. And I

23:46

care about taking photos of professional camera

23:47

or anything,

23:51

but Yeah. Yeah. It's, I feel it's

23:51

like important to him.

23:54

I don't know. Try and try and remember

23:57

or try and make the most out of it when I'm going

23:59

to different places like that. It really cemented

24:01

some letting go I guess.

24:05

Well, I. Think

24:05

you retain a sense of just

24:08

there's different cultures

24:08

out there,

24:10

different ways of doing things. And I travelled

24:12

in Central America for

24:17

like Mexico,

24:17

six weeks in Belize

24:19

and a week or two

24:19

and a couple of hours.

24:21

Then I got to Guatemala

24:21

and I went to this school

24:25

and lynch Spanish, where you live

24:26

with a family and I was there

24:28

for a month. We stayed with the family

24:31

and then you would go to

24:31

this sort of Spanish

24:34

tuition school. So there was that

24:35

in Guatemala and Antigua.

24:38

Antigua, Yep. Yeah, it's kind of it's

24:39

got a reputation for for having a lot

24:41

that sort of thing.

24:44

And it's pretty I even tried it there

24:45

and I, I don't really use

24:46

teachers. But the interesting thing

24:48

is that even though I'd been

24:50

in, in Central America

24:52

at that point

24:52

for over two months,

24:56

I hadn't appreciated

24:56

how much

24:59

the siesta time worked.

25:01

And it was only when I was

25:01

living with that family

25:05

and and sort of complying

25:05

with local culture

25:08

properly that,

25:10

you know, the school

25:10

stopped for two or 3 hours

25:13

during the middle of day. Everybody went home,

25:14

had lunch, had a sleep,

25:17

and then went back

25:17

into the school

25:19

and did their, you know, recommence their day

25:20

as a tourist, travelling

25:24

through Central America. Prior to that, I hadn't even

25:26

recognised or understood

25:26

that it was

25:29

only when I was living with the family. So that was probably

25:31

an interesting

25:33

sort of thing upon reflection. So it's

25:37

just an appreciation

25:37

of other cultures

25:40

and we might get to talking about that with this podcast in 2.0.

25:43

I think when we eventually get to talking about. This. Is trying to

25:49

take into account other

25:51

cultures and ways of thinking that maybe aren't

25:53

being taken into account.

25:57

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:59

Let's, let's, let's jump that now. So you, you, we know each

26:01

other through I guess.

26:04

James Cridland I guess because we're both here in Brisbane and then some, that's

26:06

how we first connected it.

26:08

Like a I'm guessing I can't

26:09

even remember when it was

26:12

certainly years ago, like around

26:13

COVID times, I'm guessing.

26:16

and obviously James,

26:16

that's how I found about

26:19

podcast in 2.0 as well. So I suppose

26:21

he was your introduction

26:23

to what that kind

26:23

of initiative is.

26:25

Movement is. Probably, I mean,

26:27

I've been listening to

26:33

Todd Cochrane and.

26:35

I'm. On the new media

26:35

show.

26:37

Yeah. And then I would have been listening to James

26:39

when he started his

26:42

Pod News Weekly and then podcasting

26:44

two point I was days

26:49

and Adam is what

26:49

I've been listening to

26:52

for quite a while now. So that's

26:55

where I get the sense of what the community is

26:56

doing is from those three podcasts

26:58

I guess.

27:01

Yep, yep, yep, yep. And I guess so

27:04

what's your reasoning for doing that? Because I know a hell of

27:08

a lot of podcasters who have almost

27:08

no interest in the

27:11

the podcasting industry

27:11

or anything outside of it

27:16

being a a mechanism to,

27:16

to reach people.

27:20

Yeah. So, so what's your,

27:20

what's your interest in it

27:23

I suppose in that

27:23

I guess I'm.

27:26

I, I find it interesting

27:28

and not for any

27:28

particular value.

27:32

I mean with my own podcast I've got really low

27:34

expectations.

27:36

I don't need the money from it,

27:38

I'm quite comfortable. So it's really

27:40

just a passion hobby. I do it

27:43

because it implies

27:45

it imposes a discipline on me to read and understand

27:47

what's going on

27:49

in the world every week. And so, you know,

27:55

I do it for those reasons.

27:58

And look, I'm a little bit interested

27:59

in tech side of things,

28:02

so I don't mind playing around with tech things

28:04

and testing things out. So

28:08

So yeah, just out of pure

28:08

personal interest

28:11

is why I listen to it. Not for any grandiose

28:12

expectations of becoming

28:16

some great

28:16

successful podcaster.

28:19

So no, no, I mean,

28:19

I think if you want

28:22

to actually

28:22

grow your podcast in the

28:25

in the sense of getting to

28:25

a it being a very

28:29

what would I call it, like mass market

28:29

sort of thing. Yeah.

28:31

Focusing on the tech nerdy

28:31

stuff is the way to go.

28:35

You should be focusing

28:35

more on on the thumbnails

28:38

if you're doing

28:38

YouTube on the

28:40

Yeah you know creating

28:40

virality clips and stuff.

28:44

Yeah I can tell you in the art world that the most successful

28:46

artists are not

28:49

necessarily the ones who are great at making art.

28:54

They're the ones who are great at promoting themselves.

28:57

Yeah,

28:57

a sort of self-promotion

28:59

is a big part of

28:59

being a successful artist.

29:01

If you can't do that, it doesn't matter

29:03

what you're producing, you're just going to be on

29:04

Struggle Street. So yeah,

29:07

the ones who are actually doing quite well are often

29:10

not that good, but

29:10

they're good at promotion.

29:13

Yeah, yeah. They,

29:13

they have a competence.

29:15

Yeah. They're not terrible, but a big factor is your ability

29:17

to promote.

29:19

Yeah. And the,

29:20

I mean like the high end art world

29:22

is even more different.

29:24

Right. So that's, that's

29:24

where it gets into,

29:28

you know, because

29:28

like most of the world's

29:30

expensive

29:30

art is locked in.

29:34

what are those, like,

29:34

safehouses or those,

29:36

those places at in ports

29:36

where it's underground?

29:41

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where it's probably like

29:43

a tax write off the thing

29:45

and, and it's not, not necessarily about the art,

29:47

it's more about,

29:49

you know, funnelling money and not,

29:50

not necessarily saying like it's all, all bad,

29:52

but it gets weird.

29:55

It gets weird when it gets to the very high levels. I kind of feel the same

29:58

with podcasting, to be honest. Yeah, it probably gets

30:00

a bit weird once you're

30:02

getting millions of downloads. An episode

30:03

and things like that. Yeah, so I don't have to

30:05

worry about that.

30:09

Good. Yeah.

30:12

So, you know,

30:12

and one of the things is

30:15

like, genuinely don't have to worry

30:16

because total freedom,

30:19

if you are independent of the success

30:21

of your podcast,

30:23

then you can do

30:23

or say whatever you like

30:26

because you're

30:26

not relying on it.

30:28

If you are. Actually, I've created

30:28

something that is,

30:33

you feel a need to protect it

30:34

and you feel worried about

30:37

damaging, you know,

30:37

the number of downloads

30:40

you've got and the number

30:40

of followers you've got, then you could self-censor

30:42

in a way.

30:45

But for me,

30:45

I don't have that issue

30:48

that it's not that big

30:48

or important to me,

30:51

it doesn't really matter. So yeah, it's funny

30:55

because the people would,

30:57

you know, generally the

30:57

the podcast tend to rise.

31:02

They'll usually have a

31:02

unless they're backed

31:05

by like a media company or something. But I'm talking more about

31:08

perhaps just an independent person or people

31:10

who want to create

31:10

something

31:13

that the user,

31:13

the reason will get

31:15

popular is because it's it's kind of like unfiltered.

31:18

And so the reason for

31:20

your sex success

31:20

can also be the,

31:24

the reason for your downfall, I guess, or,

31:26

or perhaps a reason for not further

31:27

continued success.

31:30

Maybe something like that. There'll be pressures on you to different pressures.

31:32

Yeah. To nobody's

31:34

knowledge is often

31:34

to smooth that out

31:36

and that it won't be

31:36

what it was

31:38

would be some of the pressure. I can imagine it.

31:40

Yeah, definitely. And yeah. So

31:44

I guess like you've,

31:44

you've got a reputation

31:46

somewhat of being anti

31:46

V for V in some ways,

31:50

but the podcast

31:50

2.0 is a general,

31:53

you know, you kind of like support it right. You're a big fan of,

31:55

of what they're doing.

31:57

Yep. So this is where we've got to get

31:58

this terminology correct

32:02

and and as a lawyer. Please correct me.

32:03

Yeah. Ex-lawyer

32:06

I'm really pedantic when

32:06

it comes to terminology

32:10

in the use of words. So when you said,

32:11

you've got a reputation

32:14

of being anti V to V

32:17

is my first

32:21

reaction to

32:21

that is V for V

32:25

includes things

32:25

beyond citations, correct.

32:28

Right. Yeah. And but the it's it's always

32:31

seems to be interchangeable when you and other people

32:33

use it.

32:35

It's almost always

32:35

associated with citations

32:38

and boosting V for V,

32:38

but it doesn't.

32:41

A lot of it is yeah correct. It doesn't have to be.

32:43

And I know when I went on James's show and

32:47

Sam said

32:47

he put out a tweet about,

32:49

we're going to have this Trevor on and he's

32:50

going to be putting the reasons against Visa V

32:52

And Adam went crazy

32:55

and we're not crazy. That made some comment like, I'm not

32:56

going to watch the show. Then I got to say, it's

32:58

nothing like that at all.

33:01

I am absolutely pro

33:01

the to V.

33:04

So it's all Sam's fault.

33:06

Well, you'll find it. In your fault.

33:09

Because you started it. Yeah. You associate Visa

33:14

V almost

33:14

always with situations.

33:17

And so I guess

33:21

a philosophical question

33:21

is you know

33:24

can a podcast that doesn't

33:24

do anything with issues

33:28

but has a patron

33:28

subscription,

33:30

can that be in the aether,

33:30

the podcast.

33:34

Patron I would say

33:34

I would argue no,

33:36

because that's, that's

33:36

locking you in to the

33:41

that, that's a support model. But value for value,

33:42

I think it's like

33:47

I feel confident

33:47

to say this where it's the

33:49

it needs that aspect of

33:49

you need to pay,

33:52

be able to pay what you want and patron has tiers right

33:55

You can't can't choose how much you want

33:56

to support. Is that correct?

33:58

Well, I never actually

33:58

created a patron.

34:01

Yeah. Okay. So. Okay,

34:05

there's a couple of aspects to it. One is

34:07

a regular subscription.

34:09

So that is

34:09

not disqualifying

34:12

because for example,

34:12

with podcasting 2.0,

34:16

I pay them $5 a month as

34:16

a PayPal regular payment.

34:20

Yeah. I consider that to be a V

34:20

for the payment.

34:23

Yep. Yep, yep. But you got

34:24

you got to choose that right

34:26

with paying your own. Can you choose

34:27

how much you want to?

34:30

So with my podcast,

34:30

for example,

34:32

I have a page

34:32

I use Patreon.

34:35

And I've got $1.2, $5 and $10 tiers.

34:42

Right? And I on those tiers

34:46

don't offer

34:46

anything extra to anybody.

34:49

I simply say

34:52

if you're here for one point, you'll enjoy the show.

34:54

If you're going to pay $2,

34:54

you'd probably enjoy it.

34:57

We really looking forward

34:57

to the show.

35:00

If you really look forward to the show and you're telling

35:02

your friends about it, you probably

35:04

maybe would think about

35:04

being a $5 tier.

35:08

And if you were to think I'm the greatest thing

35:09

since sliced bread, then you might sign up

35:11

for the $10 to you.

35:13

So people

35:13

don't get anything extra.

35:16

But it's just an easy click on that

35:18

where they can just say, Yeah,

35:19

I think the show is worth

35:22

five bucks

35:22

or it's worth to you.

35:25

It's up to them to decide. Is that

35:26

a Value for Value podcast

35:31

to to. I guess it's yeah, I'd

35:36

I'd have to really dive

35:36

into the weeds with that

35:40

because it's

35:40

if you're offering

35:43

and if you're offering

35:43

to just where it's

35:46

almost like a

35:49

what's like like a

35:51

exponential function or something where it's if you're offering

35:53

ten, 100,000 in a pot,

35:56

part of it's about

35:56

the numerology itself.

35:59

So you let let's say it's.

36:02

Signed with with

36:02

it is also pay PayPal

36:06

for a side of PayPal you can pay whatever

36:07

you like regularly

36:10

or you can make a one off

36:10

contribution

36:12

whenever you like. So those are the options

36:13

totally up

36:16

to you to decide

36:16

whether to pay nothing

36:20

or whether to pay 1 to 510

36:20

through Patreon or

36:24

any amount you like weekly

36:24

or one off on PayPal.

36:28

Surely that's got to be

36:28

a value for value podcast.

36:31

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yep. Yep, yep, yep.

36:35

Definitely the PayPal aspect, the Patreon. I'm still I feel

36:39

what. I don't understand.

36:41

What. It's just just part

36:42

of the numerology of being able to choose

36:43

exactly what you want.

36:46

So like if you know, if someone wants to

36:48

choose the value of $3.50

36:48

a month.

36:52

Yeah. Like they can't do that

36:52

right?

36:55

So, so then it's

36:57

you being locked into

36:57

I guess a certain value.

37:00

And look,

37:00

your ones are very close

37:04

to each other. So it probably doesn't

37:04

matter that much for.

37:07

Yeah. For someone who was

37:07

jumping onto yours.

37:09

But I'd say like the

37:09

underlying premise is it

37:12

you need to be able to, to choose how much value

37:14

you want to give back.

37:17

Yeah. And, and $1 might be too

37:18

high for some people then.

37:23

Is that what we're really saying. I look once again like

37:25

in your particular case,

37:27

I would say it's probably

37:27

not that big of a deal,

37:31

but it is an example

37:31

like someone sent us our

37:36

Asterix first PayPal

37:36

donation the other day.

37:40

They sent us .01 cents

37:44

and then PayPal took .01 cents and so

37:45

we ended up getting zero.

37:49

And it was a

37:49

it was an African guy

37:52

from the name

37:52

and from the photo.

37:54

And I'm going like he might.

37:58

And really, I'd never

37:58

heard of the guy before.

38:01

The email

38:01

I didn't recognise

38:04

could be a hoax, could be, could be someone genuine.

38:07

It's hard to tell Pozzi

38:07

in one sense, for him

38:11

if he's like, you know, a random dude in Africa

38:12

who's on a dollar a day,

38:17

you know, that would be

38:17

the equivalent of someone

38:20

here in Australia

38:20

who's like on $100

38:23

a day sending in a dollar,

38:23

perhaps a

38:27

in that case you could say

38:27

like he's, he's donating

38:32

1% of his, his paycheque

38:32

for that day.

38:35

To me

38:37

that in that case

38:37

I would say,

38:39

you know, that's just as valuable as someone

38:41

who sent a dollar,

38:43

even though it's 100 times more. Well, even more than that,

38:44

like 10,000 times more

38:49

a sorry, 100 times more,

38:52

that that would still

38:52

equal like the same rough

38:55

value, right? Because he sent in

38:57

1% of what he's

38:57

earning on that day.

39:00

So in that case, you know,

39:00

you know, if

39:03

if that African guy

39:03

was wanting to donate

39:06

to you via patron, like he wouldn't

39:07

be able to and like

39:09

he wasn't really able to

39:09

with me either.

39:11

But it's somewhat

39:11

it's somewhat semantics.

39:14

But I think like the

39:14

underlying principles the

39:18

that that you need to that that the value

39:20

is subjective and what can seem

39:22

like a lot to you

39:25

could be nothing to some people

39:26

and then like a whole lot

39:29

to to others. Yeah yeah.

39:32

So if somebody had a tears

39:32

but if they also had the

39:36

as I do the PayPal option

39:36

allowing and

39:40

any amount you like then

39:40

well it's say if

39:45

Bryan had a facility

39:45

where you could have tiers

39:47

of 1 to 5 and ten or insert

39:48

whatever amount you like

39:53

as your regular thing

39:53

then it's value for value.

39:57

Yeah. I'd be. Yeah,

39:57

definitely.

39:59

Right. Okay. Yeah. So, so yeah.

40:02

So just sort of back to your original point

40:04

where it's like, Trevor, you got a reputation

40:06

as a A.V Vega I did.

40:10

So just, just to counter

40:10

that as well.

40:13

I did have not a

40:13

V for V fan.

40:15

How come? And then

40:16

my other note was, or is he just

40:17

against Bitcoin? And I think

40:19

that might be the, the crux of the matter.

40:23

Yes. Although

40:23

it's it's more than that.

40:26

Like before we get to bitcoin,

40:27

I just want to explore

40:30

the visa, the philosophy

40:30

if you like.

40:33

Yeah, definitely. So you would say that

40:34

a paywalled sort of tier

40:40

where unless

40:41

you pay this amount,

40:43

you don't get

40:43

this extra bonus content.

40:46

For example,

40:48

that's not a i v for V.

40:52

No, because you're paying

40:52

for a product then.

40:54

Yeah. Right. Because it requires a.

40:59

It's like a full support

40:59

type type deal.

41:01

Like you, I'm kind of like

41:03

if I was doing that, I'm

41:07

like forcing you to, to give something to me,

41:08

which

41:11

it's a model. It works for a whole

41:12

bunch of people.

41:16

But no, I wouldn't

41:16

put that in the value

41:18

for value it. Yeah, value for value

41:19

at its core is a,

41:21

is a voluntary system.

41:25

Yeah, it's. Voluntary

41:26

in assessing the.

41:29

Well. Nobody's forcing you to

41:32

pay the extra in out and to get the extra content correct.

41:35

So on one hand the producer of

41:37

the content would say,

41:40

I've got this extra content, I think

41:42

it's worth X amount

41:44

and that's

41:44

what I'd like you to pay

41:46

if you'd like

41:46

that content and

41:50

that really you're saying values the value requires

41:51

the person paying

41:55

to judge the amount

41:55

they want to pay

42:00

for the product

42:02

and not told what

42:02

the amount is.

42:05

I mean, like that

42:05

can be suggested that you

42:08

can you can, you know,

42:08

gamify it by having,

42:13

you know, certain levels. What we say, for example,

42:15

if you get to 100,000

42:18

doses, will send you a shirt. So there's like

42:19

an incentive there.

42:21

You can do it via

42:21

the numerology.

42:24

That's, that's important. Like, yeah, so I post codes

42:26

and once again, this is all just focusing

42:27

on the monetary aspect,

42:29

the other aspects of value

42:29

for value of the, the,

42:32

the non-monetary things

42:32

which are

42:35

just as important. So yeah,

42:36

so you've just got a bit of the paywalled

42:37

content that yourself

42:41

because until people reach a certain tier,

42:42

they don't get a T-shirt.

42:46

I mean that's not

42:46

really content, that's a,

42:48

that's a physical. Often, often

42:49

these things are bonus

42:52

content things

42:52

where they are

42:55

merch or

42:57

extra bits and pieces, stickers or other things. So.

43:04

So yeah, I feel that cement,

43:05

I wouldn't

43:08

if it's value for value,

43:08

I mean, like I've,

43:14

I've got like a whole

43:14

bunch of other stuff

43:17

in my room,

43:17

like pens and stuff.

43:19

So just because someone

43:19

might value that and want

43:24

it doesn't necessarily

43:24

mean they get it.

43:27

I know how I wouldn't

43:29

I wouldn't

43:29

consider a shirt content.

43:31

As as you listening to this. Do you listen? I remember

43:33

I am the devil's advocate.

43:35

So Panama. Yeah. You're a lawyer. It's completely unfair.

43:38

I'm an engineer and I. Want to or I'm doing is

43:39

just exploring the ideas

43:43

and putting a bit of heat

43:43

on them to see

43:46

whether they stand up as being consistent in all

43:47

circumstances, saying.

43:51

It's brilliant as well, because it's like a hot Queensland

43:53

summer here. I've got two lights

43:55

on, so I'm going to be sweating like crazy. So

43:59

on air. Conditioned,

44:01

I'm cool as a cucumber

44:01

here. So.

44:04

So yeah. Okay.

44:07

So value for value is not only the exchange

44:08

of values of value,

44:11

but it is the person paying. It has to decide

44:13

the amount

44:16

and there can't be

44:16

a paywall.

44:19

So yeah,

44:23

I mean, philosophically,

44:25

that's fine if people wouldn't

44:26

want to take that view. I guess

44:29

what I wanted to sort of

44:32

explore as well is, is

44:36

one of the advantages

44:36

I see with, say, Patreon

44:39

or PayPal is being able to

44:39

set an automatic payment

44:45

and not then have to worry

44:45

about about it.

44:49

And I see that

44:49

as an advantage

44:51

for the podcaster

44:51

and also the listener.

44:54

Yeah. So

44:57

to me

44:57

it's a real fatal flaw

45:00

with the Satoshi

45:00

boosting model

45:03

that the ordinary person

45:03

can't set up.

45:07

Well, maybe they can correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, it's

45:09

an automatic payment. System that that stuff's

45:10

coming true.

45:13

Fans, for example

45:13

Sam Seth is right thing.

45:16

He's got a thing where it'll once an episode drops it.

45:21

If you're a if you're a fan

45:21

and you enable a setting, it will

45:24

automatically enable a

45:24

a donation of payment.

45:28

And I believe he has

45:28

that based on the minutes

45:32

in the episode. So once again,

45:33

this could be gamified where

45:35

if it's like if you've if you've got like

45:38

10,000 fans on there or something,

45:39

then can you like I'll just put out

45:41

a, a six hour long episode

45:41

full of nothing,

45:45

it'll automatically know

45:45

pay a whole bunch.

45:47

But like there's a thing

45:47

with programmable money,

45:50

you can, you can program

45:50

all of these things and

45:53

people haven't

45:53

created that yet. But

45:56

Dave Jones, for example,

45:56

he like look Dave

46:00

while far

46:00

out of the ordinary

46:02

but he is he's create an automatic

46:03

one for the mere model. So yeah

46:04

every week on the dot we get an automatic

46:06

one from him.

46:09

Yes And so so I guess

46:12

Sam would say that

46:17

it's coming, you know it's, it's going to be

46:19

a take up of strategies

46:19

and the system

46:23

and it's just a matter of time. And he would quote

46:26

what people were like when they were introduced

46:27

to the Internet and people didn't know

46:29

what to do about Netscape. Yeah, yeah.

46:32

But then

46:32

but then they took it up

46:35

and I guess I'd say

46:38

that's all well and good.

46:40

But right at this moment, if you were

46:41

in the business

46:43

of advising podcasters

46:43

of the best

46:47

way to generate funds

46:47

for their podcast

46:51

and, and the money had

46:51

some importance to people,

46:54

you know,

46:54

then you'd have to say

46:58

that compared to the other systems

46:59

that are available,

47:02

they're going to get less money doing the satiety

47:03

boosting than they would

47:07

through the other systems

47:07

that are available.

47:10

Depends, depends. I do not wholeheartedly

47:15

like splurge, and I'm one

47:15

of the biggest advocates.

47:19

I've got a whole bloody podcast called Value for Value,

47:20

but one was telling of

47:23

he's got a friend to I was in some sort

47:24

of company and they were

47:28

starting up a podcast and he was mentioning

47:32

like V for V

47:32

in the context of that.

47:34

And I was like, No, do I do not tell them

47:34

about that.

47:37

That's, that's, that's

47:38

not going to be helpful for them for whatever

47:40

they're trying to do,

47:42

whether it be more of a

47:44

marketing

47:44

thing rather than a

47:46

purely financial thing.

47:48

You know, marketing is finances. I guess it's just

47:52

a layer back,

47:52

three layers back.

47:55

Yeah,

47:55

But in that in that case

47:57

where I was just going like, no, no way. Like there's there's no

47:59

way you'd want to do that.

48:02

There's not what would you do. Instead.

48:05

For them. What I'd recommend,

48:06

I don't know. I'd need to know

48:07

what they were trying to do with the podcast.

48:10

If it was like

48:10

a moneymaking venture.

48:12

Is it about reputation? Is it about

48:13

brand awareness?

48:15

Is it about, you know, communications

48:17

within the company?

48:20

It would depend on what they're doing,

48:21

but I'd say just just start a podcast

48:23

and see how you go.

48:26

Right. But you're convinced that they shouldn't do

48:28

strategy payments?

48:31

I wouldn't know. I'm not convinced,

48:32

but I wouldn't recommend it to them

48:34

from the start.

48:37

If they're a bit of a Bitcoin nerd and knew about Bitcoin,

48:38

I'd I'd certainly suggest

48:42

it to them and say,

48:42

okay, you can do this.

48:44

But if I'm when one was telling me

48:46

this, I was imagining

48:49

corporate or government

48:52

type person female.

48:55

So like I'm not likely

48:55

to to be tech inclined.

48:58

Yeah, yeah. That was a whole,

49:00

whole bunch of like little mini

49:01

indications that

49:03

it probably wouldn't be the, the first thing

49:06

I'd recommend to them. Yeah. Yeah.

49:08

So if you were an Australian

49:10

doing a kind of starter

49:13

true crime podcast

49:13

for example,

49:17

do you think that

49:17

what would,

49:20

what would be the best way

49:20

of, of monetising that.

49:25

I don't know. It would depend on

49:26

what they're trying to do, what levels

49:28

they're trying to get.

49:31

I just wanting some okay

49:31

They are a,

49:35

a podcast

49:35

that's on some pop culture

49:38

topic of whatever

49:38

where it's a couple

49:41

ladies who talk about

49:45

female topics of some sort

49:45

might be pop culture,

49:47

might be anything. They get together

49:48

and have a chat and they want

49:50

to get enough money to cover their expenses

49:51

and, and by dinner

49:54

once a week or something

49:54

like that, you know,

49:56

just a hobby that they want it to pay for itself,

49:58

pay for the expenses.

50:00

If there's a little bit left over, Great. No great expectations

50:01

beyond that. What

50:06

would you tell them. Yeah, go for the Satoshi

50:06

funding model.

50:09

Would you tell them. What's right now?

50:12

If they're females, they're probably going

50:13

to have a female audience. That's just generally

50:15

how it goes. Yeah. Pop culture.

50:18

Once again, this is tech nerdy stuff. Yeah, I wouldn't,

50:21

I wouldn't necessarily

50:21

be recommending them.

50:24

I'd maybe suggest V for V just as a

50:26

as a general, like,

50:28

you know, just ask

50:28

your audience for support.

50:31

You can do it via PayPal

50:31

or maybe strike or depends

50:34

if they're in the U.S. or not. You know, and

50:38

but I'd probably suggest the other

50:40

like if they were coming to me as, as someone who'd been doing

50:42

podcasting for a while,

50:45

I'd probably suggest

50:45

the other ways, like,

50:47

you could also do subscriptions obviously advertising.

50:51

You know, there's always trade off trying to get

50:53

all of these things. Yeah.

50:55

So I think for the vast

50:57

majority of,

50:57

of indie podcasters

51:01

and also then professional

51:01

and the vast

51:03

majority of professional

51:03

podcasters,

51:05

that it would be

51:05

a pretty rare case

51:08

where

51:08

would get more money from

51:12

the strategy

51:12

boosting model.

51:16

Once again, what you're

51:16

you're focusing like

51:19

really hard on the satoshis. So yeah

51:20

I don't so value for value

51:24

as as we know

51:24

as is different from that.

51:26

Correct that that's why I'm saying

51:27

value for is great, but

51:32

this is where I'm like I think

51:34

in terms of Adam and Dave

51:36

and what they're doing

51:36

is great.

51:38

Don't change anything. No criticism at all. Creating this Satoshi

51:40

streaming method.

51:43

Brilliant. Unbelievable. No criticism at all.

51:46

Their job is to create

51:50

ideas and,

51:50

well, come up with ideas,

51:53

implement them, and it's up for

51:54

the podcasting community

51:57

to then assess those ideas

51:57

and functionalities

52:02

as to whether they're worthwhile in in given circumstances.

52:05

So, so full marks to them

52:05

for creating it.

52:10

My concern is people like

52:10

saying Todd Cochrane or

52:15

who would go to a podcast movement

52:16

or something

52:19

and would talk to a

52:19

roomful of people and say,

52:22

you know, here's this great idea, podcasting to point out

52:24

with society's

52:28

and probably like,

52:28

I don't think I've

52:30

ever heard him

52:30

mention the word Patreon,

52:33

let alone talk about

52:36

subscription models

52:36

through member press or

52:40

Paywalled sort of options

52:43

as an alternative to that.

52:45

And I think there is an obligation

52:47

on the commenters

52:51

and the educators in the

52:51

podcasting community

52:54

to take a breath and go.

52:54

Well.

52:57

It's probably a really limited number of instances

53:00

where this boosting is

53:00

is the optimal method

53:04

and that there are wide beta values of value

53:05

methods

53:08

right now that people

53:08

should be using.

53:11

I came saying maybe in

53:11

five years or ten years,

53:14

the take up of stage years

53:14

and it's acceptance

53:17

will be so great that that

53:19

is the preferred method.

53:22

But if you're talking to

53:22

a crowd of people now at a

53:25

at a convention and saying

53:25

ways to monetise

53:29

that one should be down

53:29

the list on most people.

53:32

And for me it's put up

53:35

the top of the list

53:35

by people who should be

53:38

telling us about

53:38

the other options and

53:42

and educating us about

53:45

things like how do you

53:45

set up your tiers,

53:48

What's the sort of framing

53:48

that you would use

53:51

with people,

53:53

the sort of

53:53

psychology of it?

53:57

What are the different,

53:57

you know, fees

53:59

charged by these

53:59

different organisations,

54:02

the pros

54:02

and cons of all of those.

54:06

But we don't get any of it

54:06

from, you know, Todd

54:09

And I'll say James,

54:09

in this case, James,

54:12

you know, I've been

54:12

listening to what

54:15

is his weekly show.

54:18

I've never heard anybody from a subscription

54:19

service come on to

54:21

talk about thing.

54:24

You're listening to the wrong people, man. Todd has a show called

54:26

Geek News Central.

54:29

Yes, he is the geek.

54:32

This one out. I don't know. You've met James like.

54:34

Yes, he's he's so hot and

54:34

deep into the tech stuff.

54:39

There's plenty of people

54:39

out there doing that.

54:42

You're just listening to,

54:42

like the more nerdy ones.

54:45

And so, of course, they're going to be more interested

54:46

in the nerdy things. Like you said, they should

54:48

wear that twice.

54:51

So I'm not a fan of the

54:51

should what I well,

54:54

if they're interested in it, I think that's

54:55

that's totally fine to do

54:58

because. I purposefully didn't

54:59

use it with Adam and Dyes

55:02

because there's no shoulds

55:02

with Adam and Dave.

55:04

Their role is exploration.

55:07

But if you're purporting

55:07

to be an advisor

55:10

to the community, which I think Todd

55:12

and James are,

55:15

then I think there's an obligation

55:16

to think wider. And

55:21

you're right, they are tech guys

55:22

and therefore,

55:25

and so are you, like

55:25

you're into your tech.

55:29

And so it is a natural

55:29

thing that you will be

55:32

more interested

55:32

in these tech things.

55:34

And I'm simply saying

55:38

when I say should,

55:38

then I would say

55:40

maybe consider that

55:43

the wider podcasting

55:43

community

55:47

has a lot of women

55:47

who are bored by tech

55:51

and has a lot of other

55:51

cultural differences.

55:54

It means

55:54

maybe they're not going to

56:00

fall for nuts full,

56:00

but be attracted to

56:04

to boosting like

56:08

like they are. I'm really

56:10

I'm really it's a crying out for people to be a bit

56:12

more aware of the wider

56:15

gender and cultural groups

56:15

that are out there

56:18

and to think outside

56:18

of their own bubble and

56:23

become a bit broader in

56:23

the commentary is what I'm

56:26

suggesting they should do.

56:29

Yeah I'm I'm for you

56:29

on that

56:32

I think there's plenty of other podcasts out there doing that

56:34

and like if this if you

56:37

if you want to know more

56:37

about growing your podcast

56:41

type type and how to grow

56:41

your podcast and

56:45

I'm not sure where Todd

56:45

would rank on that list

56:48

because he does he does talk about how to

56:49

grow your podcast a lot,

56:53

but there's so many

56:53

different other places

56:56

that you can go to, to, to try and find

56:57

that sort of stuff. Like, like I just type it

56:59

in and, you know, Spotify

57:02

links, Riverside links,

57:02

costal links.

57:06

Buffalo Lower St Yeah.

57:08

So many other things

57:08

come up before their,

57:11

their stuff does. So I think,

57:11

I think if someone wants

57:16

yeah that

57:16

you get the audience

57:18

that you're attracted to

57:18

so what

57:21

your audience is attracted to what you're talking about. So you know

57:25

if you're a tech inclined you're going to go towards them.

57:27

And if you're not tech inclined and you're hearing about the booster games

57:29

and stuff, you're probably just

57:32

going to stop listening

57:32

and go somewhere else.

57:35

Probably. But and yeah, they can

57:38

well ignore my advice and say, I'm only interested in

57:40

this side of podcasting.

57:43

I don't need to deal

57:43

with the other side.

57:48

Ignore me because lots of people do like I'm

57:49

I'm used to that.

57:52

But it's merely,

57:55

I guess I'm saying

57:55

I think they're missing

57:57

something. And I think I think

57:58

they have a platform

58:02

and there's a slight disservice to the wider community

58:03

that they're ignore.

58:05

Saying those options

58:05

by not exploring them

58:10

show as much as I could. That's up to them.

58:13

They can decide whether they or not

58:14

they want to do that. You mentioned like if in

58:16

five years time, you know,

58:19

that gets more uptake, do you think those things,

58:21

these things will be more popular, especially this

58:24

getting Because I remember

58:24

last time we chatted,

58:28

yeah. Is it fair to say

58:30

you weren't a fan of Bitcoin or you're not a fan

58:31

of Bitcoin, correct?

58:33

Not a fan of bitcoin.

58:33

Yeah.

58:36

So digital currencies

58:36

in general.

58:39

Cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies

58:40

in general. I'm not a fan. I.

58:45

You know, who knows?

58:47

I might be proven wrong

58:47

and I, I doubt it.

58:53

I think the uptake in

58:56

so in Australia

58:56

for example Roy Morgan

59:00

is a pollster here and

59:03

April 2022

59:03

they said only 5%

59:06

of Australians own,

59:06

any cryptocurrency,

59:09

it's a really low figure.

59:11

And in the USA,

59:11

Pew Research

59:16

said that overall

59:16

17% of us adults

59:19

say they've ever invested

59:19

in, traded or used

59:23

the crypto currency. And that

59:25

basically hasn't changed from the

59:28

polls from 2021 and 2022.

59:31

So the Pew Research poll

59:31

would say

59:35

the uptake in America

59:35

hasn't changed much. So,

59:40

you know,

59:42

I guess one of the things I'd say

59:46

this is

59:49

it's hard enough to get people

59:50

to donate to your show,

59:53

but because of the low

59:53

uptake in crypto,

59:56

you've got to convince

59:56

people to start a wallet

1:00:00

and and change

1:00:00

an app probably.

1:00:03

And you've really not only got

1:00:05

to sell your show and the idea

1:00:06

of donating to it, but you've got to sell

1:00:08

the idea of

1:00:10

of cryptocurrency and is that right

1:00:12

is fair enough

1:00:14

to say that like it's

1:00:14

to start the process. Yep.

1:00:18

So there's a lot of steps

1:00:18

added in.

1:00:20

There's there's a lot there's a lot of steps for Patreon

1:00:21

as well. It's not it's not like a

1:00:23

one click solution.

1:00:27

So yeah, the step the why

1:00:30

I'd say it's more difficult and there's

1:00:32

more steps for sure,

1:00:32

but it's not like it's a

1:00:36

complete,

1:00:38

Yeah,

1:00:38

night and day difference.

1:00:41

Shape

1:00:41

how the paypal would be

1:00:44

zero steps

1:00:44

for half the population.

1:00:46

So 47.3% of Australians

1:00:46

have used PayPal

1:00:50

in the last 12 months. So the other day

1:00:53

when you are on your podcast

1:00:53

and you're saying, Yeah, nobody's

1:00:55

ever paid us by PayPal,

1:00:58

and then you had the African guy

1:00:58

with the .01 cents

1:01:01

and then shortly afterwards somebody came in with

1:01:02

a $10 PayPal donation.

1:01:05

Yeah, but I've been saying that for like a year

1:01:06

now, so yeah.

1:01:09

But at the same time,

1:01:09

you also

1:01:11

at the same time you've also been saying, I really don't like

1:01:13

PayPal.

1:01:15

I don't want people to pay by. No Patron Yeah,

1:01:16

I mean you've got Patron.

1:01:20

We've always been saying we prefer our preferred

1:01:22

method is yeah.

1:01:24

Shots so satiety. So you've been telling

1:01:26

people you'd

1:01:26

rather be paid in satoshis

1:01:29

than in real money staying in somebody for fun

1:01:32

while you were talking.

1:01:34

I dispute the real money part as well,

1:01:36

but yeah, whatever.

1:01:39

While you were talking somebody, Sussan just sent

1:01:40

you ten bucks a bit.

1:01:42

They already had a PayPal account and just as quick

1:01:44

as a flash just sent you

1:01:46

the $10 copay.

1:01:48

We know the guy so I can get what

1:01:48

I want to ask him.

1:01:51

Yeah, so I'm just simply saying. That that same guy

1:01:54

initially sent us

1:01:54

Satoshis though, so.

1:01:57

Right

1:02:00

there. Guy But

1:02:00

I'm just saying the

1:02:04

in, in advising

1:02:04

independent podcasters

1:02:07

about how to monetise

1:02:12

the community leaders

1:02:15

should recognise

1:02:15

these hurdles

1:02:18

and the other options

1:02:18

that have lower hurdles

1:02:22

and and talk

1:02:22

about those other options

1:02:25

if they're purporting

1:02:25

to be a community leader.

1:02:27

Because what would

1:02:29

you include me on that? So I've got the value

1:02:31

for value. So,

1:02:36

Well I, it was, it's a bit

1:02:36

difficult.

1:02:39

You're somewhere

1:02:39

in between those guys and,

1:02:43

and Adam and Dave,

1:02:43

I guess I don't know quite

1:02:46

where to place you because I guess it becomes

1:02:47

very apparent

1:02:50

with you very quickly

1:02:50

that it's, it's value.

1:02:53

Some values cetacean method

1:02:54

is what you're on about.

1:02:58

So if Yeah if, if no

1:02:58

I mean like this

1:03:02

the thing I definitely think

1:03:03

that uptake was happening

1:03:05

you know just even if the stats say

1:03:07

it's not in Australia

1:03:07

or the US,

1:03:10

there's a whole lot going on and we'll talk

1:03:12

about Latin America

1:03:12

before and in Africa

1:03:15

there's a whole lot of up

1:03:15

to uptake going on there.

1:03:17

So that currencies are just fucked. So they kind of need

1:03:21

an alternative

1:03:21

to the Argentinean peso

1:03:24

that goes up by 100% in a

1:03:24

year or if more,

1:03:28

if not more. and this is where

1:03:30

I'm like, well, you know,

1:03:33

if, if I'm not

1:03:33

talking about it and I'm

1:03:36

right on the deep end,

1:03:36

you know,

1:03:39

who else

1:03:39

will talk about it?

1:03:41

And I definitely think

1:03:41

they'll

1:03:44

they'll be I mean, look,

1:03:44

if you want to talk about

1:03:46

like I'm type

1:03:46

uptake in numbers as well

1:03:50

in 2021, I think it was like 50,000 satoshis were

1:03:54

going through the network

1:03:54

per day.

1:03:57

Nowadays that's a million. So you know,

1:03:59

that's like a what, 20

1:03:59

X from, from that period.

1:04:04

And I think the I don't know

1:04:06

if the Bitcoin price

1:04:06

is risen

1:04:08

or is probably

1:04:08

about the same as it was

1:04:11

around that period. So it depends on what

1:04:12

numbers

1:04:15

and metrics you use

1:04:15

and it's it doesn't

1:04:18

necessarily need to be

1:04:18

in the uptake as well.

1:04:22

If you see like a company

1:04:22

like Strike, for example,

1:04:26

which does remittances, you can put

1:04:28

money into your account and it'll be,

1:04:30

you know, U.S. dollars or Australian dollars

1:04:32

or whatever, and you send it

1:04:33

across the world to someone

1:04:36

and it'll show up as us

1:04:36

or Australian dollars.

1:04:39

But it's all on the back

1:04:39

end that they're doing

1:04:42

that via,

1:04:42

via Bitcoin, right.

1:04:45

Because it's more efficient for them. Yeah. So I don't see any problem

1:04:47

with this transforming

1:04:52

in the future to being like, you know, you don't need to know

1:04:53

about Satoshis and you can support

1:04:56

directly

1:04:56

within the app and it's

1:04:58

and that's just dollars. Yeah,

1:05:01

those apps don't exist at the moment

1:05:02

so I can't say like that

1:05:05

someone wants to create an app like that, you know, that's

1:05:06

potentially a good idea.

1:05:09

But, but I think like the,

1:05:09

the backend

1:05:12

plumbing of it certainly

1:05:12

seems to work better

1:05:17

from than what I've seen

1:05:17

from, from other stuff.

1:05:20

Like if that African guy

1:05:20

had sent in that .01

1:05:23

cents via satoshis. I would have actually got

1:05:28

close to that. I'm pretty

1:05:29

sure that African donation

1:05:32

is some attempt at some sort of scam

1:05:33

happening there.

1:05:35

Yeah, I don't know. I really doubt that

1:05:37

that was a genuine attempt

1:05:37

to send you a cent

1:05:40

as a donation for your podcast. I think it was science

1:05:42

and I don't know.

1:05:44

Yeah, I sent an email to them

1:05:46

so we'll see if they ever respond. Yeah, you know.

1:05:49

You're going to be offered some, some Nigerian inheritance

1:05:52

if you could

1:05:52

merely transfer some money

1:05:54

to cover the transaction

1:05:54

fees, saying.

1:05:56

People, people have sent

1:05:56

me 123 sets, which is

1:06:02

that's, that's like about ten. That's less than $0.10.

1:06:04

That's probably $0.05. So,

1:06:08

yeah, you know,

1:06:08

people have sent me $0.05.

1:06:11

Yeah. Yeah. I guess when you asked does it

1:06:13

include you in this, I've kind of

1:06:16

specifically excluded

1:06:16

Sam from this. Now.

1:06:18

Sam Sethi Because Sam's

1:06:18

got a business that is

1:06:23

dependent on the promotion

1:06:25

of this sort of strategy

1:06:25

payment method.

1:06:29

Like his, you know

1:06:29

what he's working on.

1:06:31

There's needs that say he's

1:06:33

kind of lost

1:06:35

his independence

1:06:35

on that topic, got signed.

1:06:39

So I don't really expect independent advice

1:06:40

from Sam. He's clearly got a

1:06:47

a bias that would

1:06:47

operate on him there. So

1:06:50

I guess I see you

1:06:50

as the Satoshi sales rep.

1:06:54

For. Podcasting

1:06:54

to find values and values.

1:06:57

So I don't expect

1:06:57

independence from you

1:07:00

in that way either. You know, falling

1:07:01

between the two, I guess.

1:07:04

I guess James and Todd are the ones got my eye on

1:07:05

for that sort of. Broader. Commentary.

1:07:10

What do you think about all the other

1:07:12

aspects of life of Alex?

1:07:15

You've really honed in on

1:07:15

payment and like

1:07:18

payment. Now what what

1:07:20

do you think about the time, the talent?

1:07:23

Because now those are,

1:07:23

I would say, as equally,

1:07:27

if not more

1:07:29

powerful, and they are

1:07:32

it's like a nice way

1:07:32

of framing those where

1:07:36

because I think

1:07:36

once again, if you're like

1:07:38

trying to help

1:07:38

independent podcasters or

1:07:42

or people like that,

1:07:42

when it comes,

1:07:45

I like the value for value model in terms

1:07:47

of the framing of, of being able

1:07:48

to ask for these things.

1:07:51

And it doesn't feel

1:07:51

like you're begging,

1:07:54

have you? Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:55

Any thoughts on that? Do you know that

1:07:57

word begging?

1:08:00

I actually I actually

1:08:04

because there is

1:08:04

no subscription method,

1:08:07

I actually feel like there's a lot more begging in the

1:08:08

in the values of value

1:08:12

will because people have

1:08:12

to be constantly reminded

1:08:15

I need you to beast

1:08:15

if you've forgotten to.

1:08:18

I need you to. Because

1:08:21

with a certain forget

1:08:21

formula you you can

1:08:24

you don't have to ask all the time because

1:08:25

people have set it.

1:08:27

So in my own podcast,

1:08:27

I maybe hardly ever

1:08:31

mention the patrons. Maybe

1:08:33

every couple of months, something I'll say,

1:08:35

General, thank you

1:08:35

and I'll list.

1:08:39

I'll, I'll, I'll run through the list

1:08:40

maybe twice a year.

1:08:42

Just to give you my own experience. Example. Like,

1:08:44

I've only got one.

1:08:46

I'll look at the downloads on an episode that might be

1:08:48

two weeks old.

1:08:51

There might be just over

1:08:51

200 downloads,

1:08:54

and we do it live stream

1:08:54

on YouTube and Facebook.

1:08:58

So there might be 30 or 40

1:09:01

people watch

1:09:04

some or all of the live

1:09:04

stream on video.

1:09:07

So we're looking at

1:09:07

250 odd people as a as a

1:09:14

as listening. And I get I've got 48

1:09:18

people on Patreon

1:09:18

plus two paperless

1:09:23

who are locked in paying

1:09:23

a regular amount

1:09:27

every week. So that's,

1:09:28

you know what, 20%

1:09:31

a fifth of them.

1:09:35

It's, it's

1:09:35

because it's automatic

1:09:37

and I

1:09:37

and I hardly ever ask

1:09:40

but that's sort of a set

1:09:40

and forget function

1:09:43

is super important and so

1:09:48

so yeah when when I hear

1:09:48

the call for boosting it,

1:09:51

it does sound like it

1:09:51

and a bit of begging

1:09:54

because you do have to

1:09:54

constantly remind people.

1:09:57

But just going back to your thing of, you know, talent

1:09:59

and treasure.

1:10:02

Sure.

1:10:04

Some podcast

1:10:04

that will suit,

1:10:07

but what's a podcast?

1:10:09

Maybe not so it just

1:10:11

and lots of people's workflows. It's just not going

1:10:13

to work with that.

1:10:16

It's going to create

1:10:16

more work. Having somebody

1:10:20

helping, if you like. It's almost like

1:10:21

when your kids offered

1:10:24

to help you with something. It's like it's probably going to be

1:10:26

easier if I just do it myself on a lot of podcasts.

1:10:29

So where that's going to be actually helpful

1:10:30

and applicable

1:10:33

is maybe a bit

1:10:33

more limited

1:10:37

for for a lot of podcasts. But yeah, the idea is fine

1:10:38

by all means,

1:10:42

and that would happen

1:10:45

for some people, even

1:10:47

referring to values of value and time, talent,

1:10:49

treasure. They just might have

1:10:51

super fans who say,

1:10:53

How can I help you? What can I do? And that that could happen

1:10:55

naturally in

1:10:58

in all sorts of podcasts

1:10:58

that aren't

1:11:01

visa free or whatever. Yeah, sure.

1:11:03

It's just a nice way of framing it. I find it very helpful

1:11:05

in terms of doing that.

1:11:09

Yeah. What do you think? Advertising. Because that's probably

1:11:11

the, you know, if, if someone was to come to

1:11:13

me and say I want to make

1:11:17

like you were saying money

1:11:18

make doing my podcast, surely advertising's

1:11:21

got to be your first

1:11:21

recommendation, right?

1:11:25

No Because for most people

1:11:28

the podcast is going to just have

1:11:29

a couple of hundred

1:11:31

can be lucky to get 400

1:11:31

500 listeners,

1:11:34

aren't they? And most advertisers

1:11:36

aren't going to be

1:11:38

probably interested in most small time

1:11:39

indie podcasts.

1:11:42

I wouldn't

1:11:42

have thought so.

1:11:46

I think the values of value

1:11:47

method with a subscription

1:11:50

of some sort, either with or without paywalled

1:11:51

content,

1:11:53

would be my advice

1:11:53

to a lot of indie

1:11:57

indie podcasters. I don't think advertising

1:11:59

is the way to go for most. However,

1:12:03

if I'm if I.

1:12:07

I would rather listen to a

1:12:07

one minute ziprecruiter

1:12:11

ad than a 35 minute list

1:12:11

of people's Instagrams.

1:12:15

Perhaps like let's talk

1:12:15

about the philosophy of

1:12:19

of these diagrams and in the reading out

1:12:21

of these two grams, like

1:12:25

in a lot of podcasts,

1:12:25

that would be really

1:12:28

jarring and inappropriate. Like if you've

1:12:34

if you're

1:12:34

not a newsy sort of

1:12:37

a podcast, if you're more

1:12:37

of a highly produced

1:12:40

storytelling podcast

1:12:44

lacking in a bunch of

1:12:47

Instagram shout outs,

1:12:49

Mike could be quite jarring with that. It's not necessarily

1:12:51

going to

1:12:55

sit well

1:12:55

with a lot of podcasts.

1:12:58

John That's

1:12:58

what's highly produced.

1:13:00

I would argue that podcasting 2.0

1:13:02

is pretty highly produced.

1:13:04

Okay, maybe you've got a. Mate, maybe a storytelling

1:13:06

or a a well-produced,

1:13:11

a disciple, say

1:13:11

before true crime or

1:13:14

or something where you are

1:13:14

taking somebody

1:13:16

and immersing

1:13:16

them into an idea

1:13:19

and taking them somewhere. And rather things

1:13:20

better than that.

1:13:24

I simply

1:13:24

make the point that

1:13:30

for some people,

1:13:30

listening to boost two

1:13:33

grams could be as jarring

1:13:36

as an ad

1:13:38

is. What I would say is definitely

1:13:40

an unreasonable for.

1:13:42

Yeah, it could be 5050.

1:13:44

Yeah,

1:13:44

I'm up to the person.

1:13:47

Yeah, I have an avid

1:13:47

hatred of of

1:13:51

advertising myself. Yes,

1:13:54

I I don't know what

1:13:54

most people

1:13:57

like one one for example. I kind of use them

1:13:58

as a barometer. See some

1:14:01

is is nowhere near as interested in this

1:14:02

stuff as I am. Yeah.

1:14:05

But he'll listen to something like the daily Stoic

1:14:06

and they'll have

1:14:08

like ad overload

1:14:08

where it's, you know, it's

1:14:11

almost more ads

1:14:11

than content and.

1:14:14

He likes ads

1:14:14

or and things like that.

1:14:17

But even he's just like that. That's too much.

1:14:20

Okay. But you said he does

1:14:21

like ads to some extent.

1:14:23

So it depends.

1:14:25

There's like a there's a show

1:14:27

called the Jocko podcast,

1:14:29

and they do ads in it, which is like

1:14:30

most red ads,

1:14:33

any any kind of like those ones. So yeah,

1:14:35

probably not the DIY ones.

1:14:37

He's probably I'd say he's

1:14:37

probably not a fan of.

1:14:40

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah

1:14:40

that you know.

1:14:43

Anyway, for some people

1:14:45

a long list of these diagrams

1:14:46

could be more jarring than

1:14:50

a shorter and just

1:14:50

philosophically coherent.

1:14:55

Sometimes I feel like people pay the least

1:14:59

expecting their boost

1:14:59

to Graham to be read

1:15:04

in return. And I feel like it's like,

1:15:06

hang on a minute.

1:15:09

The podcast is the value that's

1:15:11

been offered to you.

1:15:13

And when you pay

1:15:13

your beast,

1:15:18

that's in return for the podcast, you don't necessarily

1:15:19

get to have.

1:15:22

Your. Words called out

1:15:22

if you like.

1:15:26

It's about incentives,

1:15:26

it's the feedback loop

1:15:29

pretty important. So for example,

1:15:34

those patrons,

1:15:37

when when they send you

1:15:37

a donation, do they do

1:15:40

they know that you like

1:15:40

are receiving it?

1:15:44

Do they how do they know that you

1:15:47

like receiving it

1:15:47

and appreciating it,

1:15:49

for example? So so basically

1:15:55

when I publish a episode,

1:15:58

I would then go into Patreon and I would still post,

1:16:00

which would be,

1:16:03

Hi everyone. Here's the link

1:16:04

to the latest episode. Thanks for your support.

1:16:10

See you later. So I think they get an email saying

1:16:11

there's a new episode out,

1:16:15

so let's see how

1:16:15

they would know that.

1:16:18

Yeah. Because I think

1:16:19

that's a problem that I've, I've noticed,

1:16:20

which was

1:16:23

giving support and not it

1:16:23

being recognised.

1:16:26

So for example what, what if, if you just

1:16:27

stop doing that

1:16:31

and they were just sending

1:16:31

money into Patreon and,

1:16:34

and you weren't even giving them because that, that

1:16:37

takes effort on your part, right. To go in there individually,

1:16:39

write a post.

1:16:41

But just the one, it's

1:16:41

the one post

1:16:43

that just gets sent out.

1:16:45

That's how you chart that, how you charge them. You to go in

1:16:48

and essentially create

1:16:48

the post and say,

1:16:51

I'm going to charge all of my patrons

1:16:52

for this post.

1:16:55

So that's how you invoice them. If you like. Yeah.

1:16:58

So that requires some effort on your part. And is there

1:16:59

way of knowing that you're

1:17:04

kind of like acknowledging

1:17:04

them in a sense?

1:17:07

So I don't see that

1:17:07

that effort.

1:17:13

Like people need to know about it because

1:17:15

if I'm just sending money off to somewhere and I don't know

1:17:18

if it's going there, I don't know

1:17:19

if it's being appreciated, I don't know if it's even

1:17:21

being received, that

1:17:24

that's

1:17:24

really disincentivizing

1:17:26

for me to to support because

1:17:29

you just don't know if it's actually

1:17:30

doing anything. No, I think that's why

1:17:31

a lot of charities

1:17:34

probably struggle with stuff because it's just like,

1:17:36

how do you how do you like

1:17:37

really acknowledge? And that's why

1:17:40

they do all those sorts of things, like, you know, sending out

1:17:41

like little gifts and,

1:17:44

you know, shirts and all

1:17:44

that sort of stuff, pins,

1:17:47

all those things that this

1:17:50

where I'm just like that there's tons of

1:17:52

different ways you don't have to do it,

1:17:53

but and many people don't.

1:17:57

Some of the biggest shows

1:17:57

that that do it

1:17:59

they only read out the top

1:17:59

five posts.

1:18:01

You know that's so that that keeps their

1:18:02

show relatively short

1:18:05

keeps it that section

1:18:05

what 2 minutes.

1:18:07

3 minutes maybe.

1:18:09

and they don't really comment

1:18:10

on the actual comments itself usually.

1:18:13

So that that that's pretty

1:18:13

short and compressed.

1:18:16

So the feedback loops

1:18:16

pretty pretty crucial.

1:18:20

And around you you need to do it no matter what way

1:18:22

you're doing it.

1:18:27

If it's if it's via

1:18:27

the just

1:18:31

Yeah. If people have creating just like

1:18:33

a general support so they don't need

1:18:34

to think about it, that that's fine as well.

1:18:36

But I think there's plenty of people who are incentivised

1:18:38

by knowing like,

1:18:40

you know it, it, there is a thrill of, of your name

1:18:42

getting called out or

1:18:45

knowing it's being acknowledged. Yeah, yeah.

1:18:48

There is a bit of a thrill for people having

1:18:50

their name called out and but it can get

1:18:53

to the point for the other

1:18:56

listeners of like,

1:18:56

when is this going to end?

1:18:59

And then the more successful the show is, if you are

1:19:00

reading at 50, thank you.

1:19:05

Every episode,

1:19:08

I've just, I'm putting

1:19:08

the idea out there,

1:19:10

you know, people's etiquette. You don't have to do that.

1:19:13

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Many people don't.

1:19:15

I'm putting the idea out there for people is you don't have to read

1:19:17

everyone and maybe you shouldn't.

1:19:20

And it is possible

1:19:20

to educate people

1:19:23

and supporters and say,

1:19:23

you know,

1:19:26

I appreciate what you're doing. I can't read

1:19:27

everything out and

1:19:29

we've got to keep the show down to a certain length.

1:19:32

And not everybody wants to listen

1:19:33

to all this stuff. So it's just

1:19:37

food for thought

1:19:37

for people on that one.

1:19:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look like if I had to,

1:19:44

can I try and boil down

1:19:44

your criticisms

1:19:46

to the central point or have an attempt

1:19:47

at that too.

1:19:50

It would be,

1:19:52

it would be that value

1:19:52

for values.

1:19:56

It's not great for short term

1:19:57

monetisation.

1:20:01

Is that, is that kind

1:20:01

of the the main qualm.

1:20:03

Cochrane You've just said

1:20:03

values of value

1:20:07

is not good for short term

1:20:07

monetisation.

1:20:09

No, that's, that's, that's

1:20:09

what I'm guessing your,

1:20:12

your main point to.

1:20:15

Use a value.

1:20:18

Is is that what you're. Yeah. You don't like

1:20:19

about it though. It's less value for value.

1:20:23

What do you mean for short term monetisation. Like if you're

1:20:25

recommending it to people that love. Recommending

1:20:27

value to value.

1:20:30

The satiety

1:20:30

aspect of of it.

1:20:35

Gotcha. So this is where

1:20:37

we're at again,

1:20:39

this is where we started.

1:20:41

You've actually succinctly

1:20:41

summarised my point

1:20:45

right there. Inadvertently common

1:20:46

because you use values

1:20:50

of valuing

1:20:50

with respect incorrectly,

1:20:54

and that is a succinct

1:20:54

explanation

1:20:58

of what I'm trying to say

1:20:58

right there.

1:21:01

You do it. Yeah. Once again,

1:21:02

I'm off the deep end, man. Like this is

1:21:07

if if you wanted to create

1:21:07

like the value for value

1:21:11

No satoshis podcast like

1:21:14

but that's, that's awesome. Like go for it

1:21:18

I'm, I'm viewing with

1:21:18

like a longer term aspects

1:21:21

and so if

1:21:26

if it's if if someone

1:21:26

was to ask me like

1:21:29

what's the best way of monetising for the next

1:21:30

like five years,

1:21:33

I'd probably recommend

1:21:33

like the value for value

1:21:36

method method. Which one.

1:21:39

Using using

1:21:42

Brewster Gramps and Satoshi's

1:21:43

of the payments, doing it within the actual app

1:21:46

that that's,

1:21:46

that would be my kind of

1:21:48

recommendation. And then as a whole, like,

1:21:51

yeah, there's

1:21:51

so many models, man.

1:21:53

And I think, I think Todd Cochrane

1:21:54

would agree with you,

1:21:57

and I don't know if James

1:21:57

would agree with you, but

1:22:02

he hasn't spoken enough

1:22:02

about the other stuff.

1:22:06

So I strongly disagree

1:22:06

with you.

1:22:09

I think that the vast

1:22:09

majority of podcasts

1:22:13

will make more money

1:22:13

and provide

1:22:16

a better experience

1:22:16

for more people

1:22:19

using the alternative

1:22:19

subscription methods.

1:22:24

And they're just going

1:22:24

to lose

1:22:27

a chance of getting value

1:22:27

that they could have got.

1:22:30

But the difficulties

1:22:30

and the hurdles created by

1:22:33

the Satoshi model is going to cause them

1:22:35

to miss out. So I just think

1:22:38

people are going to miss out on giving

1:22:39

and people are going to miss out on receiving

1:22:40

if they take advice.

1:22:44

That's my succinct

1:22:46

sort of statement,

1:22:46

and I just ask that people

1:22:52

provide us with some some more information

1:22:54

about those other models

1:22:56

and things that we could be doing and the the psychology

1:22:57

of tears and, you know.

1:23:03

You're the man, Trevor

1:23:03

and man.

1:23:05

Oriented

1:23:07

and even things like how

1:23:07

well does it work?

1:23:10

Like Sam Harris with

1:23:10

the Making Sense podcast,

1:23:14

you know, he provides the first sort

1:23:15

of 30 minutes for free.

1:23:18

And then if you want to hear the rest,

1:23:19

become a subscriber.

1:23:23

Yep. I'd really like