0:00

Josh: I did say soliloquy Bob: effortlessly.

0:04

You didn't. What do you mean? I hope it, I hope it hurts.

0:07

No soliloquy. I hope it. Oh, say it five more times.

0:10

Pull that out of your ass. Just keep pulling it out.

0:13

Eventually Josh: soliloquy to more.

0:16

Bob: Are you practicing in? Josh: And the last one, this is a little gray.

0:20

Thank you. Are you no pain?

0:23

Are you paying? All right. No pain. Bob, the job market is insane right now.

1:04

Did you know that? And Bob: I've noticed that well, there's what I see that what the hashtag great.

1:09

Uh, what resignation? Yeah, so there's the resignation stuff going on, right?

1:14

People are getting more more negotiations, I guess, with, with working from home.

1:19

Right. And, and, you know, perks of flexibility.

1:23

I have wondered about salary. So salary is going through the roof as

1:26

Josh: well. Definitely going through the roof, the average that I'm

1:31

seeing in my limited view. So your mileage may vary and see it greater or smaller, depending on where our

1:36

listeners are is like a 20 to 30 K bump just in base salaries for existing roles.

1:44

Bob: So in the past, in the

1:46

Josh: past year, six months, so your max is really ramped up.

1:50

So this year, yeah, this year in 2021, it really ramped

1:53

Bob: up. Is that just competition, driving pricing?

1:57

Josh: I believe so, given that you can now get, so like, there are people that have

2:01

left the company that I'm at, that are working for a California based company,

2:06

remotely getting a California salary.

2:09

Oh, wow. Bob: Because that's so okay. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I bet it's multi-factored and I bet geography.

2:17

Yes, Josh: because it doesn't Bob: matter as much now. Yeah.

2:19

But, but some companies are adjusting their salaries though.

2:22

Yeah. Some companies, some California companies are adjusting their

2:25

salaries based on your geography. Some of them are getting slammed for that process.

2:29

Right. And some of them are, are not doing that.

2:31

Okay. Yeah. So I,

2:33

Josh: I'm not sure of all of the macro economic vehicles that

2:38

have created this situation. What I want to make sure is that our listeners know what's happening and have

2:46

an opportunity to thoughtfully think about how this plays into any decision

2:52

that they might make, because you might be finding out or hearing about friends

2:56

or coworkers that just left the job that they've been at for five years.

3:00

And they got an instant 30, 35 K.

3:04

Right. You know? So, so that should lead you to question, what should I do?

3:09

What's the, what's the right answer. I've even seen people that have left and come right back.

3:16

Bob: Oh really? Yeah. And why, what just enemy random sampling.

3:20

Right? So what, what was the general feeling that,

3:23

Josh: you know, they left for the money and realize that the money

3:28

didn't mean everything and they appreciated the company that they

3:31

were with and decided to go back. I don't know if they came back at that higher pay rate or something.

3:37

I assume so, but I'm not sure Bob: probably negotiated something.

3:41

Yeah. Right. On the return, but they came back.

3:43

So something was going on in there in the dynamic.

3:46

So, so what do you want to, you want to just explore?

3:49

Yeah. Josh: To me, I, I, I want to look at it from two angles.

3:53

One is someone who knows this or is hearing this for the first

3:57

time and says, holy crap, I should leave my current job and go get.

4:03

More money somewhere else.

4:06

Not so fast, I think is the message that I want to send is be thoughtful and

4:11

think about all of the variables that are out there that make a job great.

4:16

Then I will look at it from the other side of, if you are a leader of people, right?

4:21

What are ways you can, should respond to what's happening in the market?

4:25

So starting with oh, okay.

4:27

Bob: Yeah. Oh, I like the two for a second. Yeah.

4:29

All right. Josh: So as a developer, QA engineer, scrum master, whatever is someone

4:35

on your typical scrum team and you hear this and like maybe one of your

4:40

friends just, just left to go to a job and their pay bump was crazy.

4:44

And they're like, dude, you got to do this. What should you do?

4:48

What should you think about? Bob: I think there's some, I mean, general reactions to me is I'm you

4:54

and I have different generations for hiring and staying and things like.

4:58

I think one thing is it used to be staying with the company was a prime directive.

5:02

Yeah. Right. It was important. Like being a job, hopper was a bad thing.

5:06

I think that's probably flipped nowadays.

5:09

Right. So, so loyalty and the worry that it, you know, sort of be how your,

5:16

the perception is has changed. So that I think that should be like a very minor consideration.

5:21

Yeah. Right. Maybe a little bit of a consideration, like, like hopping around,

5:25

staying somewhat placed less than a year and hopping around.

5:28

I saw something the other day, someone tweeted that there were people who were.

5:34

I forgot there was a name for it where they took two because they're virtual.

5:38

Oh yeah. They took two full-time jobs.

5:40

Right. They were getting paid for two full time jobs and they were

5:43

looking for a third full-time job. And it, but I think, I think that might catch up with you, right?

5:48

Yeah. Like staying somewhere like playing games or being dishonest.

5:53

Yeah. Or hopping around every three months or something like that.

5:56

We'll probably come back to haunt you from a career, but

5:59

Josh: just like a life perspective, just wearing

6:02

Bob: yourself down. Yeah. I don't, I think character matters a little bit.

6:06

Right. Loyalty does still matter character how you can maybe I'll

6:10

call it how you conduct yourself. Like yeah.

6:13

You know, you know what I mean? But I wasn't trying to argue that I was trying to flip it and say,

6:17

don't worry about that stuff so much. Right?

6:19

Yeah. Josh: Again, we're from different generations.

6:22

So we see it a little bit. Bob: Absolutely different.

6:24

Absolutely. you know, what else from a, I put up picky guy.

6:29

we've talked about this before. I think you remember vaguely.

6:33

Josh: So what I'd like to talk about is a thought process I could take as a

6:38

person in the seat to figure out, okay.

6:42

Is it time for me to go find something else or do I stay here if I stay here?

6:47

Should I talk to my boss? How do I talk about the pay difference?

6:50

The pay gap that's out there. What,

6:53

Bob: before we go there though. Yeah. And then shoot it down.

6:56

But the icky guy has 400.

6:59

Josh: Okay. So that is a Venn diagram. That's up on Bob's

7:01

Bob: screen. It's a Venn diagram. It's called an Iki gai icky guy.

7:06

It's a Japanese metaphor. And it talks about like, you're trying to get to the essence of

7:11

what, what should I be doing? And it has four dimensions.

7:14

It's doing what you love, it's doing what you're good at.

7:18

It's doing what you can be paid for, which is what we're talking about.

7:22

And then doing what the world needs, like making a difference in the world.

7:27

So if I put on an icky guy mindset, then this is one quarter, right.

7:33

Money is one quarter. And so what I'm trying to suggest to medic hazards, and it may

7:38

not land in, shoot me down. This may, maybe an old guy, not a Nike guy, but an old guy discussion.

7:44

But I think it's important. Like, do you love what you do, right?

7:47

Are you good at what you do? Like you could jump for 20 K and get fired because you aren't self-aware

7:54

of what you're good at you. Like, you could jump into a fire, right.

7:58

From a skillset perspective. Right. So sort of being self-aware as part of this.

8:03

I think nowadays generationally people, you can, you can get.

8:07

You get benefits or you get good feelings.

8:10

I know money matters, but working for like the, the gates foundation, like

8:15

doing stuff that affects people's lives, might it's, it's intangible from a

8:21

money point of view, but it's giving you, it's giving you solid feelings.

8:25

Like I'm contributing back. I'm not just, I'm not just sucking money from the world.

8:29

Well, so I'm wondering if an icky guy view, like running it through

8:34

four lenses, instead of just the money lens would be helpful.

8:38

Josh: So I'll, I'll provide a quick retort,

8:43

Bob: so it's not going to land. That's fine. I

8:45

Josh: want to make it quick so we can get on the other stuff. I think the number of places where you really do feel good type stuff

8:54

is pretty low companies that really.

8:57

I have complete intent to make a difference in the world.

9:01

I think unfortunately there are very few, right.

9:04

You look at some of the more successful companies that are out there and people

9:10

like to invest in the boring things.

9:14

That's what investors like, because they know what's going to be there.

9:17

They know what's always going to exist and maybe it was boring.

9:20

Somebody who didn't. So there's a, there's a lot of companies are out there that

9:25

build software just to make money. And yeah, it makes the user's life better and easier because they can

9:32

do it on the software instead of a spreadsheet or a piece of paper,

9:37

but net making the world better.

9:40

I think there's unfortunately very Bob: few there. So is there a lens then beyond I want to make as much money as I

9:47

can and get as much prestige as I can and fill my ego as I can.

9:51

So gimme, gimme, gimme feed me, feed me, feed me.

9:54

Is there a lens that.

9:57

Is there any other lens other than that, that, that people should be looking at?

10:00

Yeah. Well, to me, I, and I'm not being yet.

10:03

Josh: Yeah. Yeah, no, there's, there's, there's reasons why people desire to make

10:09

money that maybe isn't just pure greed.

10:12

Okay. Maybe they're trying to build and grow a family.

10:15

They want to adopt, they want to be able to give back.

10:18

They want to be able to do time

10:20

Bob: money. my question is it's a mindset. Yes.

10:23

Yes. I'm not anti-money or mindset.

10:25

is there another, is it multi-faceted or is that the primary lens

10:30

that we should be talking about? to me Josh: it depends on your point in your career.

10:35

Bob: That is a factor in the lucky guy. Right.

10:38

Josh: That's what I've seen is that my primary focus has shifted over

10:43

the decades that I've been in mine. Bob: Yes.

10:46

So I use it. So in the early phases of my career, yeah, my achy guy was very much about paid for.

10:53

And good at, and a little bit of love.

10:56

Josh: I even did things I wasn't good at. Bob: Right.

11:00

So there's, self-awareness comes into play, right?

11:02

Like what, what are you good at? What are your strengths and what are your weaknesses?

11:05

Okay. My, my icky guy he's shifted. Josh: Okay.

11:08

I, I, I intentionally took a new role in something that I never had done before.

11:13

I bet on myself. I thought I could do it because I viewed it as a stepping

11:17

stone to where I wanted to get. Yeah. Bob: So why don't we stay there?

11:20

Why don't we stay in that demographic? Because you and I are probably,

11:24

Josh: we are old. We are old. So, so yeah.

11:26

So you're in the first five, seven years a year.

11:31

Yep. Career. One of the things that my very first boss told me that I regret valuing as

11:39

he instructed me to do was the value of the people that you work with.

11:44

And he really tried, tried to get me to, to place a monetary value.

11:48

On that his was $15,000.

11:51

He thought beating on a team of people that he liked was worth $15,000.

11:56

And that was 20 plus years ago when that happened.

12:00

But that's how he tried to navigate that was he put a real dollar amount on

12:04

it and he wanted me to buy same thing. Did you buy that at that age?

12:08

No. Yeah, but I do now because I've because I've worked places where

12:14

I didn't like the people and I understood what that felt like.

12:17

And then I've worked places where I love the people and I understood that feeling.

12:21

And that for me means a

12:24

Bob: lot. So that's, I'm proposing that we reframe this and say everyone's

12:29

career is in three thirds. So first, third, second, third, third, third, right.

12:35

First third is like, so let's say 15 years per third.

12:38

Okay. Something like that. So that's, that's first, let's just talk about the first 15 years your career.

12:44

Right. Which is sort of like, so it's a little bit more than eight.

12:47

I think for that, at least speaking for me and when I was there and

12:52

I think it's still relevant. It's you need to be growing as you need to be accelerating and challenging

12:57

yourself as much as you possibly can. Yes.

12:59

You need to be somewhat greedy and get well, when, no matter what your paradigm

13:03

is, whether you're a family person or adoptions or whatnot, but that's that

13:08

first third is where you're learning.

13:10

You're gaining critical challenges. You're learning a lot challenges, but you're also accelerating.

13:16

Like you may, you may dead end in a accompany very often.

13:20

You, you can be under appreciated in the company.

13:23

So you have to be sort of hopping around, hopping around for new opportunities,

13:28

new challenges and salary acceleration.

13:31

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. And, and in a traditional market, not where there's this like recent, almost

13:36

blind bump that every position gets.

13:41

I think your early decision.

13:44

On roles you take and the salary you accept, define

13:50

what your future south can be. Bob: The one that's what you're accelerating.

13:54

So you're setting, you're investing the first third.

13:58

If you think about it, this way is investing is, is establishing

14:01

a platform for how to use springboard into the second thing.

14:04

Right? Right. And the second third is, is probably more, it's still acceleration,

14:09

but sh you're not learning. You may be learning different things like technology.

14:14

That's talking about technology. You're not going to be learning technology.

14:17

Typically in the, in the next 15 years, you might be learning

14:21

management or leadership or architecture or something like that.

14:24

So it's, it's almost like a springboard springboard for one.

14:29

And then, and then your springboard is going to be, can

14:31

I accelerate in my new persona?

14:33

Yeah. Now how good of a leader am I, or how good of an architect am I?

14:38

And, and some people will plateau there and then some people

14:41

accelerate, but you want to sort of accelerate in the first one.

14:44

Is this model working the way? Yeah, yeah. Josh: Yeah.

14:46

It's, it's just that there are roles that I accepted where I, I know I

14:55

could have pushed harder on, on pay.

14:57

And so then my next job and the salary there was based on what I made before.

15:05

So you kind of set the bar pretty early and then you progress off of that

15:10

because that's always a reference point. So the, Bob: the loyalty I had, so I kicked myself looking at the curves today,

15:18

versus when I was curving across those, those three sort of areas, because one,

15:24

I would stay with a company for 3, 4, 5, Seven years and, and they weren't

15:30

accelerating the way I could if I laughed.

15:32

Right. And now you can do that.

15:35

So, so I was, I probably, it wasn't my capability.

15:39

It was literally got in my way.

15:42

Right. Seeing value in people.

15:45

Got it. And got in my way. I wish I would've had a today minus.

15:49

Back then. I wish I could. It wasn't just me though.

15:51

I mean, people wouldn't hire you, right.

15:54

You couldn't navigate that. Josh: I, I got in trouble from my parents when I said I was living my, my first job.

16:00

They were like, you cannot do that. You are making a huge mistake.

16:03

Exactly. Go back and get that job.

16:06

And I just said, no, like, this is how I view it as the best

16:10

way to progress my, my career. Right.

16:13

Where I want to go. Now they, you know, we're teachers.

16:16

Yeah. So teachers, you basically sign up with a school and especially seventies,

16:22

eighties, and nineties, right. You, you just kind of stayed with that school because that's, you know, and

16:26

especially in that state because of the state retirement and all that stuff.

16:29

So that was a thing you just did.

16:32

But so much has changed where.

16:35

The opportunity is Bob: limitless.

16:38

Now I do think you have to, you don't want to be lazy with your,

16:42

like I was thinking of vetting the company so I could take this.

16:45

I'm a bouncing ball syndrome and I'm chasing shiny money and things like that.

16:49

And, and I'm not anti that we're talking about being pro that, but I still

16:54

think you have to thoughtfully that thoughtfully interview the companies

16:59

that to thoughtfully filter that because you don't want to go there

17:03

and waste your time and land badly. Then maybe you talked about someone coming back.

17:06

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what the F yes. W

17:09

Josh: so both Bob and I are on the page of, you need to

17:14

grab the reins on your career. Yeah.

17:16

And go get the salary that you believe that you are worth.

17:20

Go get it and go get it. But don't blindly do that.

17:25

Or you have to understand the value of all these.

17:28

Icky guy stuff that's out there. I said that properly, correct?

17:31

Yeah. Bob: Yeah. So it's a, it's not, it's just a metaphor it's but it's, but

17:35

again, it's, it's think about like being aware of what am I good at?

17:40

So I would say, you know, if, if, for example, what I'm good at new development,

17:45

but I'm not good at maintenance and there's a maintenance role.

17:48

That's a SAS that pops up.

17:51

That's willing to pay me 35 more K a year, but that's not what I'm good at.

17:56

And, and not only that, I don't like doing it. I don't love doing it.

18:00

Then, then the odds of me growing there and accelerating the, or even enjoying

18:03

my job are low, but the money's there.

18:06

Right. So, so just go in, I think it's go in eyes wide open and make sure that you're

18:11

really looking at it like a portfolio based like, like a multi-faceted

18:15

decision is what I'm suggesting. Does that make sense?

18:18

Yes. My, my Josh: historical advice for folks I've talked to when there was a similar

18:24

role position experience required that paid 20 to 30 K more, it was they're

18:30

paying you more for a reason, right? Something sucks over there that they need to compensate you more,

18:36

but that's not true right now. Right now they are good companies across the board that have responded

18:43

to this new market that's happening and have decided we're going to be up

18:48

front and we're going to, we're going to get the best and we're gonna do

18:52

that and we're going to pay the best. And so now there's a response happening across the entire market

18:57

where that's pooling everybody else

18:59

Bob: up. I still want. Fault.

19:02

Yes, I'm not disagree, but there's still a lot of shitty companies in the world.

19:07

And they're shitty in different ways. Like Netflix is a wonderful company to work for, but their work Amazon is a

19:13

wonderful company to work for, but their view of people and their view and, you

19:18

know, and, and there's variable pays and all of that, you really want to think of.

19:23

I think you really want to be conscious about who you select and

19:27

interview them and understand what you're in for like, like, like

19:31

what do they expect for the money? And it may be hours, or it may be the type of work you do, et cetera.

19:36

I guess what I'm saying is go in eyes wide open. Josh: So the we'll use a relatively strong word recommendation is you

19:45

owe it to yourself to take a look at the market, given everything that's

19:48

happening right now and leverage it

19:50

Bob: and leverage that this as part of your stress, like be aggressive.

19:53

But also eyes wide open. I think you're right.

19:56

When you're like interview, we have some episodes where we talk about interviewing

20:00

the company or at least one or two episodes where we've we focused on.

20:05

And it's not just, it's not just asking a few questions.

20:07

You may want to like ask to work with your team for a day.

20:10

Like do an audition. Even if they're not doing audition, can I audition?

20:14

can I, you know, can I meet everyone I will be working with?

20:17

Can I, you know, if you could visit the company and I know that's hard

20:21

nowadays, can you look at the culture? Like, is it, you know, you CA you, you know, no one will tell you it's

20:26

a sweat shop, but walking around the company, you can actually tell that it's

20:30

Josh: right. Yeah. The, the surprising thing that I've had to coach people on is you should

20:36

not be scared about the situation you are in the driver's seat.

20:40

The demand is much higher than the supply that's out there right now.

20:44

So you are no longer a commodity.

20:48

You now are the thing that's in demand. So you have the opportunity to push harder on things like that and be selective.

20:55

Yes. Yes. There was not a shortage.

20:58

Bob: That's maybe the thing be really sharp on, on your you're interviewing

21:02

the companies on doing your due diligence and be in the driver's seat.

21:07

Yeah. View this Josh: as you are in a great position because you are, you are

21:14

Bob: now can I say something? I want to see how you react.

21:17

The other thing, I, I think a lot of people get so people

21:21

can get full of themselves. Yeah. And people can think they're better than they are.

21:25

And they, and they lack self-awareness. So I think as part of, so I I'm suggesting, and I want to see Josh

21:32

is going to keep me honest, but I think it's vetting the company, but

21:35

I also think there's a vet yourself, dammit, and make sure that, you

21:39

know, don't, don't get big headed.

21:41

Maybe I'll leave it. Just keep it simple. Don't get big headed and get ahead of yourself.

21:46

Make sure. Yeah. And that's, I'm not saying don't take challenges, but don't set yourself up to

21:52

failure because you lacked self-awareness. Josh: Yeah.

21:55

And it's tough because historically the people I've seen with

21:59

low self awareness isn't yes.

22:03

It's self awareness, but they haven't been coached well by good leaders.

22:08

And they're usually technically talented, so people are afraid to upset them.

22:12

So they don't give them the bad news that they should hear on how

22:15

you got to get better at this. Right. So they've lived in this bubble where they don't know.

22:20

Yes. They should know. But also there should be coaching to say no one's given them.

22:25

Bob: Yes. So people suck good companies, bad companies.

22:28

You have talked about the leaders, the majority of leaders, 90% of leaders suck

22:33

at giving good feedback and coachable. So it's not just the persons, it's the bubble that being created.

22:39

So, so burst your own bubble. If you can find a

22:42

Josh: friend that you really trust and like have a heart to heart

22:46

discussion with them and say, Hey, I'm thinking about this.

22:49

What do you think now? I, I, I

22:52

Bob: will, Josh: I have a confidence issue, right?

22:55

Like I look at a thing and say, I can do that.

22:58

It hasn't gotten me in trouble yet, but it has caused me to chase bigger things than

23:04

I was experienced enough to be ready for.

23:08

But I was willing to bet on myself to go like, make myself, make it happen.

23:12

And I, you know, I haven't run into a brick wall yet, but that, that is

23:17

undoubtedly going to happen at some point where I have a self-awareness issue where

23:22

like, Josh, you really can't do that.

23:25

So like, don't be dumb, but, but I know that's part of my personality that works

23:31

Bob: sometimes. So I think all of our advice here on this side of the conversation was valid.

23:36

Yeah. I'm going to say something rambunctious. Ooh, I like it.

23:38

I'm excited. I'm not too, but I'm just saying it, but all everything we've said, I don't think

23:44

there's a time in human history like this, where workers are in the driver's seat.

23:50

So don't waste it. Don't waste this opportunity.

23:54

Yeah. Right. This is too good of an opportunity, not just for you, but to disrupt right.

24:01

Sort of mechanistic companies and, and, and poor leadership.

24:05

maybe this leads into our other, you know, what can leaders do,

24:07

but yeah, so don't only demand money, demand, excellent leaders.

24:12

You may actually have a harder time finding excellent leaders

24:15

than getting paid, but there is no better time than now.

24:19

You have the heat on in here. What's going on, Bob?

24:21

I had to take my jacket off. Are you? Yeah, I'm getting close.

24:24

I think it's the hot air that we're both Josh: better.

24:28

I'm going to start sweating soon. So before we go to the leadership side of the house, I want to talk

24:32

about the flip side of that coin. So you thought about it.

24:36

You've investigated. You've decided you, you love this company.

24:41

You're getting a challenge the way you want to get challenged,

24:43

but you know, you're potentially leaving 20, 30 K on the table.

24:49

What do you Bob: do? I go for, if I'm, if I'm in that first, third, I go for it.

24:54

I take all of the advice that we had, but this is it's like the stock market.

24:59

What would you do if it was a stock market and you were grabbing a stock that

25:02

you knew was going to grow over time? Well, I'm Josh: saying like, do you go talk to your boss?

25:05

Do you say, Hey, there's this pay gap out there?

25:09

Bob: I actually think so. I'd be interested to hear your view.

25:12

I'm like, just go for it. I don't know if I, I talked to my boss so much outside of do I, do I

25:17

change the behavior with my boss? Like how, whatever, if I'm having one-on-one.

25:21

So every boss have them. If I'm having career growth discussions with our boss, keep having them

25:26

to, whatever degree was habit. Do I have an extra conversation?

25:29

No, I just look for the opportunities. I do see, I, I, I look, I probably look to

25:34

Josh: jump. Yeah. It, if, if I'm in that position where, where I've looked and

25:39

in looking, so you find a Bob: 30 K opportunity finding

25:43

Josh: 30 average SUNY, but the, and

25:47

Bob: I love what you guy, I love where I'm at

25:49

Josh: says. I love all of the things where I'm at except the pay piece.

25:56

Right? So I'm happy with all the other variables in the van, but the pay piece is missing.

26:01

I take a shot and say, Hey, it's clear that roles.

26:09

Like if I were to leave, you would have to pay someone 30 K more to film

26:13

Bob: you. I would probably I, so, so we're on opposing ends, which is cool.

26:18

I would probably just leave. Okay. I would probably just leave because if they were going to pay me that they

26:22

would have paid me that or any way, or my boss would have had a conversation

26:26

with me to talk about the inequity or the market awareness, et cetera, et cetera.

26:31

Okay. All right. Well Josh: then let's slide into it's the other side of the coin you are.

26:36

Responsible for 18. Yep.

26:38

You hire them, you fire them. You, you help narrow in on what we're paying,

26:43

Bob: but I'm aware of this market. Josh: Yes. Yeah.

26:46

Welcome to our diversity inclusion minute, Bob, I hear that you have.

26:52

Juiciness to share. Well, so,

26:54

Bob: I. I have been doing, giving diversity and inclusion or people color

26:59

discounts to my leadership classes. And I've run into some people over the course of the last

27:04

few years, in the classes. And I was looking at LinkedIn the other day.

27:09

And there was this group of, mostly I think African-American coaches like eight

27:14

of them and they posted something and they called it the agile disciples USA

27:20

and what they they're forming a group. And they want to do two things they want to do.

27:25

They want to get their certified team coach.

27:28

Okay. There's criminal at CTC and that's a hard bar to get.

27:33

So they're going to, they have this unique idea that we'll work

27:35

together as a cohort to do that.

27:38

And then while we're doing the cohort, part of the CTC is giving back or

27:41

doing presentations or, you know, doing public speaking yourself or

27:46

coordinating meetings or whatever. They're like, oh, we'll give back and we'll grow the community.

27:51

So we're going to learn and we're also going to pay it forward.

27:56

And that's part of our charter. And I sent them a little note and I'm like, you just let

28:00

me know if I can help you. And the good, bad news is they, they said, yeah, you can, you know,

28:06

we would like you to, to become a, a supporter of what we're doing.

28:10

So I met with him yesterday, Saturday. And and it's, I'm going to be coaching, helping them become

28:18

CTCs and supporting them.

28:22

they, they want to have a kickoff meeting or something, you know,

28:25

webinars, something to generate some of this public value back.

28:30

They created a slack channel that we're talking in.

28:33

So that's that, and I'm really, I'm really jazzed because it's the key thing for me.

28:40

It's, it's our target. I want to help these folks.

28:44

I have privilege. It's a group of folks they're incredibly passionate and what's

28:51

exciting me the most is the snowball effect of the other side of them.

28:55

Imagine as they gain momentum, right?

28:58

Yeah. Like the momentum side of it, because they're going to touch other people

29:02

themselves because right away. Right away.

29:05

And so I'm excited about that. That is very exciting.

29:08

Now the biggest concern I have is bandwidth, right?

29:11

It's like, it's like, I'm like, oh my God, I hope I can.

29:14

I have a tendency, Josh, whether you know this or not to bite off

29:16

more than I do, I, we both do both.

29:19

So, so, but it's not, but my heart, I am, I am so blessed that this,

29:25

and it just popped into my lap. Well, that's my

29:27

Josh: diversity. You ever need to like tag out for a bit.

29:29

Oh, Bob: you want to, you want to tag with me?

29:32

Yeah, sure. Josh: I'd love that. I mean, I'm not a certified anything, so I

29:35

Bob: don't know if that matters, but it's not, but they need men.

29:38

They need people like, right. The paperwork needs mentors and coaches.

29:42

There's all kinds of stuff to help them.

29:44

I mean, and it's a long time arc, so the CTC might take a year or

29:49

two to get, but while they're doing that, they're giving back.

29:53

So I just love the hearts of these folks. Yeah, absolutely.

29:56

Cool. Done. All right. Back to the Josh: episode,

30:00

Bob: I started initiating conversations with everyone.

30:02

So I look at my banding. I look at my salary banding because there's always people that are

30:07

underpaid more than other people. So, so I start looking at like my market equity and your marketing

30:12

equity bands should be rising with this phenomenon as well, right.

30:16

To some degree, not as fast, but I look, I talked to.

30:20

And I'm aware of whoever reports to me and what it, the equity proposition.

30:24

And I start having conversations with them, like, do we need

30:27

to, do we need to do dual bump? Or what, what are you feeling like?

30:31

So all I was saying was I, as a, as a leader, I want to be ahead of that curve.

30:36

I don't want to wait for someone to have that conversation with me

30:39

because it's potentially too late. Yeah. And then I'm counter offering.

30:42

Do you know what I was implying earlier is I don't like counter offers, so

30:47

that's another, so that's a bias I have.

30:49

Right. I wanna, I wanna, like, I want to delight someone in advance of

30:54

them, of them saying I have an offer on the table at 20 X again.

30:57

Yeah. Josh: To me, there are a few things as frustrating as, so

31:02

you're willing to pay me this. I just had to say I was going to leave exactly.

31:06

Why, why wouldn't you pay me that, like this, I feel like I've been

31:10

deceived for a period of time. So Bob: I think so.

31:14

Is I'm working my butt off and it's not always easy to do.

31:17

And you can't always compete with the marketplace right.

31:20

Equal, but I would be talking to people about it in one-on-ones.

31:24

I would be trying to figure out who is more sensitive to it than others.

31:28

and I would be trying to make adjustments to become more market competitive.

31:33

And I'd be, and I'm not just saying that Medicare says I'd be working

31:35

really hard behind the scenes in the company to justify that.

31:40

Yeah. Josh: I, I, the, the only thing I would change about, and it might've been

31:44

just the word you chose and you might have meant it differently than how you

31:47

said it was that I wouldn't go ask HR.

31:50

I would go tell HR and executives and, and whatever, saying, this

31:56

is an issue, a market condition that we have to respond to.

32:00

And we have choices. We can accept the market conditions, choose to play at this new level

32:07

and find ways to fund that. Or we cannot, and then we have to accept.

32:12

The indirect costs we're going to have by losing people, taking time, spending

32:16

money, to recruit and fill those.

32:19

Maybe not being able to hire as good at people as I've left

32:22

because the pay differences.

32:24

So you have to, at that moment, have a decision on what kind of company are we.

32:30

So I think Bob: both things, Josh is what I was trying to say.

32:32

There's salary banding. Yeah. And there's annualized re evaluate whatever your companies are accustomed to.

32:39

I, I would use them to do that again or to reevaluate that, but then there's

32:43

the, does that, that may or may not handle the market conditions, then

32:49

let's argue for the current market. Like, what am I seeing in interviewing people?

32:53

You're also, you're also, if you're hiring and most folks are going to

32:55

grow, you're going to see you're going to have inequity coming in from the

32:59

outside because you're competing. Right.

33:02

So you can run that up. You can use that as an argument internally with HR who,

33:07

Josh: yeah. I've, I've, I've had really hard.

33:11

Decisions in the past, you know, maybe a decade ago where I wouldn't hire

33:18

somebody in to a role where I was paying them more than somebody that was already

33:24

doing the job and doing it well, that felt wrong for me to do, to have this

33:30

person that has invested and returned with us and helped us build these

33:35

things and then bring somebody in off the street that we think is going to

33:38

Bob: be good. So, so yeah, I mean,

33:41

Josh: I think that's part of, but that was a decade ago.

33:43

It's not right now. Right now. Times are drastically different.

33:47

It's crisis is the wrong word, but it's a, it's an event that

33:51

you need to be responding to. No, I, Bob: I, I'm going to disagree with you.

33:55

I think you were right. 10 years ago. Yes.

33:58

And I think you're right today. I think you're right to do that.

34:01

Now you hire someone, but then now you have an internal equity challenge.

34:05

Right. And you've exacerbated it. So, so you have to, you have to be leveraging that.

34:10

Right. And, but, but you have, you ha I, I don't know what you were

34:14

saying, but my re I always I'm, I'm always looking organizationally

34:19

and am I paying everyone fairly? And as I'm hiring incoming folks, it's changing the distributions.

34:25

Right. And so sometimes I even under non-crazy conditions, I would

34:29

have salary bumps out of band. Right. Just so I could feel like I am fairly compensating folks.

34:36

Yeah. I once adjusted all the QA folks, because I wanted them to be fairly compensated

34:41

with developers in an agile context. Right.

34:43

And, and they were overly, I couldn't even find a band for them to go

34:46

into because they were underpaid. So I think you have to be balancing that.

34:51

So I that's what you were saying before. Yeah.

34:53

So then you might hire someone at 20 K more.

34:56

But that's that won't stop you from that.

34:59

But now, you know, you have to respond, right?

35:01

You have to respond to everyone, right? Josh: Because the reality is, if you don't accept the fact that you might

35:08

have to pay 20 K more than you're paying people right now, you might not

35:11

get the type of people that you want.

35:14

So then you have to take that step and reactively make

35:17

adjustments within your company. So these, these are things that you were going to have to fight for.

35:23

This will not be an easy road to go to the board or to whoever you

35:26

have to go to, to get an actual. $3 million or whatever the number is to cover your team,

35:32

to get everybody bumped up. And it's not just like $3 million this year.

35:35

It's $3 million in perpetuity.

35:38

Absolutely. You know, so those are discussions that sometimes folks don't like

35:43

to have, but at that point, well,

35:46

Bob: and you may have to say no. So you have choices as a leader.

35:50

I had success in sharing with people, my equity drivers, but also my driver too.

35:55

You know, I want to, I want to up-skill the organization,

35:58

but I also want to be fair. So in some cases I might say no to someone from a salary.

36:03

I mean, at some point, if someone came to you and said, I want 60 K I want a

36:07

hundred K more, you're going to say no.

36:09

So every leader has to put, you have to change your, your

36:13

competitive posture, right. And your strategies.

36:16

So I think there's a monetary strategy as a leader.

36:19

What's challenging is depending on the company culture, you can't always

36:21

communicate that to people like in some cultures, they make salaries relatively.

36:26

Transparent or not totally, but relatively transparent or ranges

36:30

of bags and some places don't. Yep. I also think it might even be less, so it's more of a personal

36:36

thing, but I think your leadership style has to change as well.

36:40

I mean, so for take money off the plate, you know, are they

36:44

going to give me flexibility? Are they going to train me?

36:47

Are they going to give me flex time? Are they going to allow me to work from home?

36:51

Are they are they going to not ride me?

36:54

Like treat me like a resource? Are they going to treat me like a person?

36:58

There's a lot of leaders out there. Are they going to have one-on-ones with me and, and, and really connect

37:04

to me, like establish a relationship with me and put me first and grow me.

37:08

So there's the supervisory relationship?

37:12

The leadership aspect. Yeah. I think you have to raise the bar on that as well.

37:16

Don't you, I'm thinking Josh: you have to raise the bar on anything.

37:20

So to me, I hope this isn't the first time you're hearing this discussion topic,

37:25

because if this is the first time you're hearing that and you have a team that

37:29

you're leading and it might be too late.

37:31

Bob: I don't think people, I I'm not as tuned in as you are.

37:35

You're, you're more tuned in, but my sense is this isn't P

37:39

most companies are reacting to this rather than being proactive.

37:44

Right. It's like diversity. I mean, I heard someone the other day, they laid off the diversity and inclusion.

37:49

They, why would you do that now?

37:52

Right. So people, I think, I don't know if most companies are in a proactive mode

37:58

and like staying ahead of the curve and Josh: yeah.

38:00

And, and I firmly believe the companies that are will win.

38:03

Oh yeah, Bob: absolutely. Yeah.

38:05

Josh: So it's a, it's a life or death, death kind of thing.

38:09

Yeah. Where, again, this is one of those found foundational issues

38:13

of if you're a technology company. You have to respond to this because others will and you won't.

38:19

And then you're going to struggle to find the talent that is needed

38:22

to deliver whatever you need to do. Bob: Well, I mean, this is going to weed out too, to your point, it's

38:28

going to weed out the weak and the, and the myopically focused folks.

38:32

Absolutely. I agree.

38:34

What else should leaders? I actually think the icky guy, I have to bring it in.

38:39

I think the achy guy comes into play again.

38:42

Okay. Because it's make sure folks are doing what they love.

38:46

Okay. Yeah. Giving folks opportunities, trying to help them make a difference, even if

38:52

that's a difference, like, working for habitat, the company creates opportunities

38:57

to volunteer for habitat for humanity.

38:59

Yes. Right. Or something like that. Or like you were doing at storable where you were talking about

39:04

diversity and inclusion and you had that, those initiatives.

39:09

It's not just, am I making a difference outside?

39:12

Am I making you can make a difference inside, inside out?

39:15

Yeah, I think those things, yeah.

39:18

I mean, that's, that's

39:21

Josh: the job, right? You need to know what drives people.

39:25

And as soon as someone on your team doesn't feel like your company is helping

39:29

them get to wherever they want to get to. If it's, Hey, I love my job.

39:32

I just want to help the world more or, Hey, I love my job.

39:36

And I just need a little bit more money or I'm happy with the money and I

39:39

want to try something new or whatever. Like you, you need to understand what drives each person and make sure

39:47

it's clear that you're supporting them and getting to wherever that is.

39:50

And if not, then they'll go find somebody else that does

39:53

Bob: another thing as you were talking, I was thinking.

39:56

At Zenergy, we've talked about strategies of bringing folks in

40:00

from the bottom and developing them. So I think this is another part of this strategy out there

40:05

is, are you growing people? You know, we've talked about university, like our biases, not

40:10

hiring people with university degrees, not being totally focused.

40:13

20 years ago. I was focused there. Now it's maybe bring folks in with a bootcamp a 10 week bootcamp

40:19

and bring them in and develop them for two or three years.

40:22

So I think there's multi, I'm wondering if there's multifaceted

40:25

strategies of staffing. It's not just bringing in high-end folks.

40:29

It's are you growing people? Yeah, I think it's both as a leader.

40:33

I'm looking for, am I developing folks?

40:36

My bringing folks in with music degrees.

40:38

Am I allowing people to pivot in from school teaching?

40:41

What am I doing? At all ends of the organization to create this.

40:45

Would you buy that or, yeah, Josh: I, I think that's something you should be doing now, regardless

40:50

of whatever, like this, this event shouldn't push you into that you

40:55

should have already been doing that. But if you're not doing that again, if you're not doing that and you

41:00

don't respond to what's happening. Yeah,

41:02

Bob: yeah, yeah. Well, there's going to be a natural, I mean, part of what we're talking

41:07

about though, is a natural as a leader, we're on the flip side, right.

41:10

As a leader, you're not going to keep people forever.

41:13

Right? You're not. So what are you, what are you doing to re, to re re instantiate your staff?

41:19

Yeah. Right. You gotta be thinking about, Josh: yeah.

41:22

I, I, my first real leadership role was at a small insurance company that

41:29

mostly hired hourly folks to do claims and underwriting and all of that stuff.

41:33

So when I came in and wanted to pay developers, when I thought a fair

41:36

price was, there was a number of. Comfortable going above.

41:40

Yep. And I, I got frustrated because I would hire somebody in, they would

41:44

get great and they would leave. Yep. I just accepted, okay.

41:49

These are the constraints with which I am presented.

41:52

How am I going to respond? So I got really good at finding young talent, bringing them in, getting them

41:58

up to speed as quickly as I could getting two, three good years out of them.

42:03

And then making sure I always had a pipeline of somebody else ready to come in

42:07

Bob: tenured today. Just guess I would guess like five years max, max.

42:11

Right. So what we're talking about, you have to develop a strategy

42:15

to do some of this, right. And there might be a pipeline for everyone and then maybe for subject

42:20

matter experts or architects or something. So maybe you have to sort of longer tenured people, but you're still going

42:26

to, you're still going to have to refresh. Yeah.

42:29

Josh: As a leader, you need to always be recruiting.

42:32

Bob: Yeah. Always. Yeah. Did we, I feel pretty good about this.

42:38

Do you? Yeah. Yeah. All right. I'm going to make sure you brought it into, I think it was a nice

42:42

topic, actually, so, all right.

42:44

Are we done? Oh, we're done. All right. So from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina, I'm Bob Gatlin and I'm not

42:51

Josh: sharing. Listen, Bob: shake and bake. Take care of y'all.