0:00

Entry music, dah

0:03

it's the Bob in-charge show. We

0:07

should just

0:07

do that. Maybe

0:12

I'll steal that

0:13

for video and joke.

0:54

Bob is fired up. We were talking

0:56

about topics this morning. We were a

0:58

little back and forth, and then you got this

1:01

like demon glow in

1:03

your eye that you get when you're firing.

1:05

So it needs to be, it needs to be

1:07

clarified. And very often you helped

1:09

me clarify something. So I'm pissed

1:12

off. Yes. And I'm fired up about

1:15

a topic. But I don't know

1:17

how pissed off or fired up I am because

1:19

I haven't clarified. It takes me the time.

1:21

But I'll set the context. The context is

1:24

and even this will help me clarify it. I'm

1:27

getting tired of scrum. I'm

1:29

getting tired of hearing

1:31

scrum. I'm getting tired

1:34

of people like putting out a

1:36

new scrum guide and 8,000

1:40

individuals doing webinars

1:42

on what, you know, what it means

1:44

to change your team. Because now my

1:46

team that may be absolutely successful.

1:49

Right. My team may be rocking the world

1:52

using whatever they were in scrum. And

1:55

because Ken Schwaber and Jeff

1:57

Sullivan decided to change it. And

1:59

a bunch of pundents amplify

2:01

it now, like I'm

2:04

imagining people rebooting what

2:07

they're doing to the new scrum guide without

2:09

any installation guide. There is no upgrade

2:12

guide for scrum, right? There's no, it's

2:14

like put it out. Everyone says it's the best thing since

2:17

sliced bread. You need to listen to it. And

2:19

then everyone walks away. Oh, and you can

2:21

pay me a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars

2:23

for coaching or for a new training

2:25

class. And you're on your own,

2:28

but you get, but you suck. If you don't

2:30

follow scrum, right. You

2:33

you're making it. And I'm, and I'm starting

2:35

to stew on this. And that

2:37

struck scrum is not the goal. Right.

2:40

I almost, I almost want to stop myself

2:42

and I I'm picking on myself. I've said,

2:45

you know, go to the scrum guide, read

2:47

the scrum guide to clients. That's the baseline

2:49

for success, maybe for a shoe team.

2:52

But I think it's being misused, I

2:55

think, in the market. I, I, I'm

2:57

almost, it's just wrong. Something's

2:59

fundamentally wrong. About to

3:01

be agile. You have to. Follow

3:04

this book. And if you deviate

3:06

from the book, you're not doing scrum,

3:08

like Ryan Ripley, you know, one of our

3:11

right Ryan we'll get, you know,

3:13

who, you know, what is a scrum master? They're not

3:15

a, they're not a counselor, right?

3:18

They're they're, they're, they're not, they're not a counselor.

3:20

They're a scrum master. He he's, he's

3:22

very. Binary and what

3:24

a scrum master is and is not but we

3:26

lose the situational MIS we lose

3:29

the decide what works for you. It's

3:31

okay. To figure it out. It's okay. Like,

3:33

I think it's okay to use half scrub. Right.

3:35

I don't know what have someone needs to figure out.

3:38

And I don't know if we need to be running

3:40

around that team saying you're not making them feel

3:42

bad about themselves because

3:44

they're not doing it. They can discover the

3:46

journey on their own. Yeah. So,

3:48

so this whole I'm, I'm almost like. I

3:51

don't want to talk about it anymore. I

3:54

think it's run its course. If you remember,

3:56

XBI you were not an extra year,

3:58

correct? The way I was, right.

4:01

Kent Beck, never people could pick

4:03

whatever the hell they wanted from XP and

4:06

no one judged them. So that's my

4:08

that's another part of my context. No

4:10

one made you feel better than anyone or worse

4:12

than anyone. It was a personal

4:14

choice. Here's a toolbox of techniques,

4:17

right? Choose them and use them, figure

4:19

out your journey. Scrum has

4:21

never been that and it's gotten worse.

4:23

Kanban is sort of in that. So because

4:26

combat is probably in the middle a little bit, right.

4:28

As a, as a core methodology react,

4:30

you've been quiet. React to what. You

4:33

been looking medical history. He's been, he's

4:35

see something's going on in Josh, Phil.

4:37

So I can see it in his eyes. It takes a lot

4:39

to get this brain working. So like, I've got

4:41

to have focused

4:42

effort to make it do a thing. Yeah. But

4:44

there's something going on in there. You, you almost

4:46

look like you want to disagree with me and say, Bob, you're

4:48

ignorant. Get over it. There are

4:50

times where I disagree with you in

4:52

times that I don't, and I'll explain

4:55

both sides of that. I

4:57

agree in the line with some of the frustrations

4:59

that I assume these folks are having,

5:01

where they're creating this content or saying

5:03

these things because you

5:06

and I have both done coaching

5:09

where if they were just

5:11

doing the basics, if they were just

5:13

doing the scrim stuff, that's

5:15

kind of hard that they bailed on because

5:17

it was hard. It would

5:19

be working. So

5:22

it's like a coach telling you

5:24

to go practice and do a thing, and

5:26

then you aren't better. And you come

5:28

back the next month and see the coach. And it goes

5:30

like, Hey, did you do those drills? I told you to do Nope.

5:33

Then it's kind of shock. You're not better,

5:36

you know, but, but I

5:38

also recognize the fact

5:40

that one of the major issues

5:42

that you and I have had with the agile world

5:44

and not just scrum is the. Commercialization

5:47

of it and how that also creates

5:50

some of the spin and frustration. So there

5:52

are parts where I'm like, yes, Bob, I buy

5:54

100% because folks are trying

5:57

to do that next thing to make the next buck. But

5:59

also there are times where,

6:02

and I think the clarification

6:04

that you threw in there was for a shoe team.

6:07

Start here. This is the baseline. Yes.

6:09

Then start to evolve. Start

6:11

to rare. Yeah. I'm

6:13

with you. It is a two. I think it's two-sided

6:16

there is this industrial complex thing

6:19

of folks who were just charging.

6:21

And I don't even just mean with the new version of scrum.

6:23

I mean, you know, you see it in

6:25

safe, you see it in Kanban, you see it in

6:28

everything, and it's almost

6:30

like, you know, you're, you're getting

6:32

compensated for. Making

6:34

someone do it by the book when

6:36

that's what I guess the thing is Josh

6:39

the very assets and I'm looking for you

6:41

sound, you know, tell me I'm wrong. But

6:44

to me, the very essence of agile. Like

6:46

I, I remember years ago, coaching, I

6:49

remember years ago, coaching and I would run into

6:51

an organization and on my way out the door,

6:54

I would say, I would try to leave them with like

6:56

a little word of wisdom or a threat.

6:58

And I'm like, if I come back here and

7:01

in two years, and you're doing the same damn

7:03

thing, right. That you're doing now, after

7:05

I leave. I will haunt

7:07

you down till the day you die. Right.

7:10

I said, because you missed the essence of agility

7:13

right. Which is just blindly

7:15

following anything. And, and I

7:17

mean that to this day, even, right.

7:19

And that's what, and that's

7:22

what we're saying. Where like it's,

7:24

and it's not just we're saying that, but

7:26

we're really coming. We're we're jumping up on our

7:28

high horse as an industrial complex

7:30

and looking down our noses at those people.

7:34

Yeah. That's bad. You're not going to get

7:36

good results. It's sort

7:38

of contrary to the very essence since of

7:40

the manifesto and the mindset to me.

7:43

And I've tolerated it for a long time. Right.

7:45

It's I've been part of it. Right. And I'm not going

7:47

to be perfect. I'm still going to reference for

7:49

shoe teams. I'm going. I know. I'm still

7:51

going to say and feel good about it. Go to the

7:54

scrum guide, tried to do the basics, but

7:56

at some point I need to just,

7:58

you know, if someone says, I don't want to do this.

8:01

I w instead of judging them or

8:03

having this debate you're Oh,

8:06

you're not doing scrum. I would high five

8:08

their ass because they did something creative.

8:10

They did something adaptive, they thought

8:13

about it and they decided what works

8:15

for them and what doesn't.

8:16

But that's, that's where all of this falls

8:18

apart. When there's not

8:21

thoughtful, intentional, continuous

8:23

improvement. So as a

8:25

outsider, as a pundit, as a, whatever

8:28

you want to be, if you just quickly read

8:30

what someone's doing, if they make a post

8:33

or they say something or whatever, you're like, Oh, well, that's

8:35

not scrum. So you're doing it wrong, dopes.

8:38

Like, no, that's not it. You dig and understand.

8:40

So like, there's a great story

8:42

from where I'm at right now. I,

8:45

I was helping this company as a. As

8:47

an agile coach and we had acquired some companies

8:49

and they were doing agile a little bit different.

8:51

And I remember I, I

8:54

sat down with the agile

8:56

leader in another office and

8:58

we were just like talking about,

9:01

Hey, how do you do things? What's it look like?

9:03

What's your sprint review look like? And she

9:05

got this like selling

9:07

fearful look and I'm like, Oh boy,

9:09

okay. This is going to be interesting.

9:12

And she's like, well, you're

9:14

not going to like this. But

9:17

we do our sprint reviews and Slack.

9:21

I'm like, Oh, so you're telling me you don't like do a sprint

9:23

review. Like everybody else does where you get getting the room

9:25

and, and all that stuff. And she's like, no, you

9:27

know, we tried that and engagement. Wasn't

9:30

good. We ran an experiment

9:32

and we said, let's record the videos of the

9:34

demos. Let's create a Slack channel.

9:36

Let's post them there. And you know

9:39

what Josh engagement has gone

9:41

way up. There's these giant Slack

9:43

threads where sales folks and support

9:46

folks from all over the organization are watching the videos

9:48

and asking questions about, Hey, Why

9:50

does this work like this, like click and

9:53

it, like, it did the thing you want a sprint review

9:55

to do, but they were not willing

9:57

to accept that their sprint view was struggling

10:00

because for some reason, people weren't engaging.

10:02

Right. So I said, okay, cool. Like my gut

10:04

reaction is I don't like it just cause I've never seen it,

10:06

but like, let me, let's just pay attention to it

10:08

for awhile. And I think it's a great

10:11

move because it has created

10:13

a way. For it to work, but

10:15

I'm assuming many people would have

10:17

been like, no, you do a sprint review like this, and

10:20

this is your template and here's the slides and you do

10:22

this and here's, here's the script go

10:24

and make it. So, but

10:27

people weren't willing to like, let's just

10:29

see, maybe there's a different, better

10:31

way.

10:31

What's our package. It's hard context.

10:33

Yeah. I'm not picking on Ryan. I haven't

10:36

listened to his podcast, but I know Ryan really

10:38

well and his baseline, he

10:40

comes to the world through scrum. He's

10:43

a PST. He has a responsibility

10:45

with scrum.org to train basic

10:48

certifications. Right. He has

10:51

a laser focused view

10:53

of what scrum is and what it isn't. Right.

10:55

It's incredibly binary and it's intentionally,

10:58

so, right. And I'm not thinking that's bad. I mean,

11:00

that's his job, but then

11:03

what happens is when you encounter he's human.

11:06

And say folks have the same thing. Like

11:08

you have one tool, maybe this is

11:10

my metaphor. You have one tool in your mind

11:12

as a pundit, as an expert in,

11:15

I, I resonate with your story. Cause I

11:17

I've done that. I brought that baggage

11:19

to play. My view is scrum.

11:22

My view is scrum guide. My view is my history.

11:25

I've never seen it. You know, in my brain, I'm like,

11:27

I've never seen this, you know, a sprint review like that,

11:29

that must not work. Right. That's stupid.

11:31

Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying that, but I'm thinking to myself,

11:33

I'm biased. My bias has come into play

11:36

or safe, a safe pundents biases,

11:39

depending on how much money you're making at it. Right.

11:41

Or how much funding or how much your business model

11:43

was around it. It really reaffirms

11:45

that. So we bring, it's hard

11:48

to let that go, but we need to let it go

11:50

because I think it's contrary to the agile

11:52

mindset. Right? It's we're, we're skewed.

11:55

Well, and you, your story is an

11:57

example of letting it go and,

12:00

and being open to wonder,

12:02

being open, to wondering,

12:05

be curious, and then nonjudgmental.

12:08

And I think that's hard for all of us

12:10

to do. And some folks are, they're

12:13

not even aware that there's, they're so

12:15

judgemental. I don't think because

12:18

their lens is so strong. I was

12:20

uh, Carl, I forget his name was a

12:22

safe fellow and I was listening to

12:24

him and he was talking about coaching the organization

12:27

and he was very, he was skewed. He didn't

12:29

care about teams. He cared about coaching up

12:32

and safe is very skewed towards. The

12:34

leadership, satisfying leaders over,

12:37

over serving the team. And

12:39

he, and we were not debating,

12:42

but he didn't see the need

12:44

to interact with teams. And

12:46

I had a counterpoint. I was, yeah, I

12:49

can imagine I'm like, I

12:51

just was incredulous, but he didn't

12:53

see his blind spot. He

12:55

had, he had that blind spot and I, I think

12:57

that's what I'm railing against is we have the

12:59

industrial complex has a series of

13:01

people who, who have a privilege.

13:05

They've they're in a position of influence

13:07

and power and they,

13:09

and they're not aware of the blind spots they

13:12

have and the judgment that they

13:14

it's almost like this rolling wave of

13:17

judgment that goes out there and we need to stop

13:19

it. You look

13:21

through yeah, I'm in that. I'm staring

13:23

off into the distance again, which Bob is reacting

13:25

to What I, what I view

13:28

my responsibility as when I view

13:30

a coach's responsibility as

13:33

is. We

13:35

need to be shaping

13:38

master crafts people. You

13:42

can't become a master

13:45

at a craftsman ship. If you only

13:47

have one tool, I love where you're going with this. Now

13:50

you should probably start with one tool. You should probably

13:52

just have a hammer. Yeah. Like let's just

13:54

get good at

13:55

hammer nails. I

13:56

love where you're going, man. Right. And then, okay, now

13:58

let's now let's add a saw. Yeah, let's do

14:00

that. Okay, cool. Now let's

14:02

start planing wood. All of those things

14:04

to where you can build

14:08

a masterful thing,

14:11

whatever it might be, but you're going to need

14:13

a giant toolkit to make that,

14:15

and you need to learn those tools

14:17

kind of one at a time for you to get really good

14:20

at it. But I think where

14:22

a lot of people struggle and because

14:24

this is to me, I understand

14:26

where they're coming from because there are so many

14:28

people running around with

14:31

a hammer. Hitting themselves in the head

14:33

and stuff like hitting

14:34

a nail. So that's, that's a good metaphor

14:36

for where, where I'm coming from, like safe.

14:38

Yeah. It is that hammer. If, if

14:40

the only tool you have is a hammer, every

14:42

instance, right? Yeah. It looks like, and it's not

14:45

just you're in your brain.

14:47

You're wired to it. You don't even see that

14:49

you're a one tool wonder. You don't

14:51

see it that way. You've convinced

14:53

yourself that the tool solves everything

14:56

and you're not, and you've closed your mind

14:58

to that and you've closed and that's your judgment

15:01

and that's, and you need to open

15:03

that. I love the metaphor. Do you

15:05

think folks end up there because

15:08

it is

15:11

the

15:11

cash cow? It is the

15:13

thing that gives, that gives

15:15

them. Security

15:18

in their job and uh, continuous,

15:22

I think it's part of the new streaming Ryan

15:25

again, and this is slippery slope and the casters.

15:27

So please I don't

15:29

care flat rank listens to this, but I,

15:32

I respect him immensely, but

15:35

I think if you are doing something

15:37

solely, like if I'm solely

15:40

in SPC, Right.

15:42

And I make, you know, a hundred percent of my

15:44

revenue as a, as a, you know, safe

15:46

SPC in training

15:49

and coaching then.

15:51

Absolutely. I mean, it's

15:53

not in my best interest to

15:55

suggest other things,

15:57

right. It's not, and it's not, I'm not

15:59

talking about malpractice. I'm

16:02

just, my lens is so. Like

16:04

my Rose colored glasses, my glasses are

16:06

Rose colored to safe. Right.

16:08

That's how I see. I see everything

16:10

in that lens. That's why I liked your, you

16:13

know, it's not a CRA, it's not a craftsmen.

16:15

A craftsmen has many, many tools

16:17

and chooses. I don't think there's

16:20

much of a choice. Like Ryan.

16:22

I know he teaches Kanban, but

16:24

that, so, so he's doing both. It's

16:27

a bad I'm I'm hanging my example on Ryan,

16:29

on trainers in general, but

16:32

their lenses so strongly skewed towards

16:35

yeah. Scrum and,

16:37

and not just scrum, but the,

16:39

the letter of the book of scrubs, do you know what it's

16:42

it's because they're evaluating people, people

16:44

are getting tested based on their knowledge of scrum

16:46

what's in play and what's out. So

16:48

their job is to, so it's not just a hammer,

16:50

it's a ball-peen hammer with

16:52

a five and a half inch

16:54

long handle. Right. That's

16:57

purple. That's the

16:59

tool that we use. Right.

17:02

So, so even if we're doing framing

17:04

and we're trying to pull out a nail and a ball-peen hammer

17:06

does not pull out nails, we're

17:08

going to try to make that sucker pull

17:11

out a nail, right?

17:15

Welcome to our diversity inclusion minutes. I'm

17:17

Josh Anderson. Bob

17:18

Galen here. All right.

17:20

So we, we, we both have things it's been a while

17:22

that we both have stuff we've

17:24

been I've

17:25

been carrying the load that you have, you have,

17:27

but well, you go first, you talk about

17:29

it. I'm, I'm eager to hear what you're doing. Yeah. So I've

17:31

got a couple of things. Last episode

17:34

I got all fired up about. Reaching

17:36

out to schools and there's a handful of schools

17:39

in North Carolina that I've worked with in the past

17:41

that I'm re-engaging with. But

17:43

what hit me over

17:46

the weeks since we recorded last is

17:49

there's zero reason. I

17:52

can't. Expand

17:54

that search nationwide. So

17:57

I'm asking all of our listeners, if

18:00

there's a youth

18:02

group or a school

18:04

that is diverse,

18:08

very diverse. Doesn't have

18:11

certain privileges. Like one of the schools

18:13

I work with is in Eastern North

18:15

Carolina, where it's

18:17

very rural and underprivileged,

18:21

underrepresented groups. That's the norm.

18:23

So choosing to invest there,

18:25

but that, but that can be a nationwide search.

18:28

So if, if there's

18:30

a group or somebody that

18:32

you think would be. Beneficial

18:35

for me slash us

18:37

to reach out and help and have a, have

18:39

a zoom meeting, have a discussion, have a, whatever.

18:42

We are there to help. And if you don't know Josh,

18:44

what in the heck would you talk to these kids about reach

18:46

out to me? Cause I've got things I've done in the past

18:48

that I would love to do again. So

18:50

there's zero reason and forget nationwide,

18:52

like worldwide. Cause I knew so

18:54

you just beat me to it. I was waiting to pounce

18:56

on you, right? We're worldwide.

18:58

Yeah. So. Wherever.

19:01

Right, right.

19:01

Yeah. So if, if

19:04

there's a group where you think we could do

19:06

even a little bit of good reach

19:08

out to us, most likely

19:10

choice is Twitter or on

19:12

our discord. All the contacts are

19:14

below in the show notes. So please reach

19:16

out. And that's kind

19:18

of, the big thing is, is I realized I had

19:21

this very narrow view that I needed

19:23

to expand because there's zero reason

19:25

that help can't be applied globally.

19:29

So for me it's more tactical

19:31

and I'm on board with what Josh is saying. Just

19:33

ran a calc class this past week. It ended

19:35

Thursday and I was scrambling during the

19:37

registration. I had like five people registered.

19:40

Within a week and it was borderline five

19:43

is like a borderline number to run the class.

19:45

And I wasn't sure. So then I

19:47

extended it to my moose herd. I put out

19:49

like an invitation for some really

19:51

heavily discounted seats there and

19:53

I have diversity and inclusion seats,

19:56

and I, I ran out I w I contacted

19:59

a friend a new GOProud about

20:01

that. And so then it ended

20:03

up being like 13 people. So like seven

20:05

people came in. The class was balanced.

20:08

We had like half and half men and women, which was

20:10

really blessed my heart from a diversity point

20:12

of view. People of color came in towards

20:15

the end. So they, they were registering.

20:17

So we had it was a really nice,

20:19

diverse, we had someone from New

20:21

Zealand someone, a couple of folks from the

20:23

UK. So it was G it was

20:25

spatially diverse. It was racially

20:28

diverse. It was What am

20:30

I? Oh my God. I don't know. Men

20:32

and women diverse gender, gender,

20:35

gender.

20:35

And I was the

20:36

word. I was like,

20:39

well, see, I'm old. So I was reaching in the brain

20:41

and it was, it was coming up empty, this apps.

20:43

So it was gender diverse. It was just,

20:45

it was a cool class. And it wasn't,

20:47

I'm not just. It was a

20:50

created a really powerful ecosystem.

20:52

So what I saw everyone was diversity

20:55

in action. It wasn't just, you know

20:57

the profile of people, but having

20:59

a diverse group like that. And my,

21:01

and my daughter contributed as well. She co-taught

21:04

with me and she brought her social work

21:06

background. So that was just a freaking phenomenal,

21:09

cool class. So, so I want

21:11

to keep that up. So if you know anyone. Who

21:14

is interested in like leadership classes

21:16

agile leadership classes have them reach out to me.

21:18

We can swing a deal company groups,

21:20

subgroups, whatever. And it's, you

21:22

know, it's people of color different racial

21:24

profiles. I love including women as

21:27

well. So whoever you got just reach

21:29

out, don't be shy. Yeah.

21:30

So the, so the last thing before we get back to the

21:32

episode in the past, I've referenced books

21:34

and things that I was reading and how they had a profound

21:36

effect on me. And

21:39

last night, my wife and I watched Judas

21:41

and the black Messiah on HBO max.

21:44

And after that movie was over, I just like

21:46

sat there

21:48

and it was,

21:49

It is a worthwhile watch and

21:51

it will. Shaky

21:54

will inspire thought and shake

21:56

you up. And last night, just.

21:58

And Hey, easy for me to say as

22:01

a middle-aged white guy. Right. But

22:04

it was clear to me that

22:07

we have not done enough. I have not done

22:09

enough. I started running through a budget.

22:12

Yes, but Jillian. Scenarios

22:14

of like Josh, you've got to do better. What

22:16

is the thing you're going to do? So

22:19

if you haven't seen that, I really do encourage you to see it.

22:21

And, and I, and I do

22:23

expect it will inspire you

22:25

to do more. So it is helpful.

22:28

We should not need those things. 100%

22:30

except that but it, it really

22:32

lit fire on me that had

22:34

been, it was like my gas grill.

22:37

Like the fire was like the fire wasn't off, but

22:39

it was turned down a little bit in that, jacked it back

22:41

up to, to high. So

22:44

you can I look quickly

22:46

medic Hester's though. You beat yourself

22:48

up a little bit, you know, I, I'm not,

22:50

you know, I need to raise it and raise it, raise it. Yeah.

22:53

I'm actually kind of proud. I'm reflecting

22:55

back on the last year, so I'm not full

22:57

of myself. And I know we have a lot to do, but

23:00

I'm proud that we just didn't talk

23:02

a good game. Yeah. And then not

23:04

continue to action. So I I'm proud of you

23:07

and I'm proud of me and I'm proud of like

23:09

us continuing to put, so that's. Yeah. So let's

23:11

push, but that's also look

23:13

back in high five. So Medicare do a

23:15

little mini high five as we, as we leave

23:17

this part. So back to the episode. All

23:19

right. Oh, high five.

23:22

It is one of those things that, to me,

23:26

Why I've struggled with this topic and

23:28

why Bob sees me staring off into the distance

23:30

so much is because I do understand

23:33

both sides. I do understand. And

23:36

this is one of those things that as I stepped

23:38

into my coaching consulting business,

23:40

a couple of years ago, it just

23:42

became like, dang, gone it, like, let's just,

23:45

let's just do the basics. And you'll be

23:47

surprised if you do the basics, what happens

23:50

because there's so much. One of

23:52

my greatest frustrations about the agile

23:55

world is that agile gets

23:57

blamed for so much. So

23:59

many failures and organizations in so many

24:01

projects, when, in reality, agile, wasn't the problem.

24:04

If people had done scrum

24:06

reasonably well, it would

24:08

have worked now that to me,

24:11

that involves continuous improvement.

24:13

So you don't just become stagnant.

24:16

You get the party started, you figure out

24:18

what works and you make it better along

24:20

the way. You don't get lazy and say, Oh,

24:22

that's hard. We're not

24:23

doing it. So here's what I want to see. Here's what

24:25

I want to hear. You inspired

24:27

me a little bit and see how this resonates

24:29

with you. I would stop

24:32

getting all wired up. If

24:34

I heard Ryan Ripley

24:36

out of a hundred situations, one situation

24:39

say, Oh, you don't have to do ignore

24:41

the scrum guide in that case, if

24:43

I heard him say that once. Out

24:46

of a hundred. That's not very much that

24:48

would tell me that he's not a scrum

24:51

craftsmen. He's a generic, agile craftsmen.

24:53

Carl, my SBC

24:56

safe fellow. I asked him specifically

24:59

in the webinar, a question I was

25:01

attending a webinar with him or a meetup.

25:04

And I asked him, when would

25:06

you not use safer scaling? And

25:08

he struggled immensely answering that

25:10

question. Right. And it wasn't

25:12

a trick question. I wasn't being an ass. It

25:14

was a sincere question again.

25:17

When would you find, when would you not

25:19

use the hammer and when would you find

25:21

when do you need a saw? And

25:23

he didn't honestly see opportunities

25:26

forever. For a saw that's

25:28

the, that's the measure that pisses

25:31

me off that says, but,

25:33

but you are selling yourself as a craftsman.

25:36

Do you know what not? But you're marketing.

25:38

The view of the world of you is, is

25:40

a craftsmen, but you are a

25:42

one tool salesperson

25:45

and you're doing the world a disservice and

25:47

you're doing agile. I think it does, sir. I know this sounds

25:49

strong, but the, the very agile mindset

25:51

is not, is not that

25:54

I've done that, but I've, I'm a more

25:56

of a general purpose. Yeah. The other cool

25:58

thing about it is not to

26:00

me, a craftsman. I want to do hit

26:02

this metaphor off of you. Sometimes

26:04

you don't have the right tool. Yeah.

26:06

And you have to invent a tool. You have

26:09

to create a tool with your client, or

26:11

you have to trust the CRI client to create their

26:13

own tool. So it's not just, I

26:15

want to extend that metaphor of tools in my toolbox

26:18

to being able to detect that

26:21

this situation. I don't have

26:23

a tool for this situation, so we need

26:25

to experiment and I

26:27

need to trust my client and I need to see

26:29

what's going on. And that's a part of it as well.

26:31

Yeah. And I think those toolbox people,

26:34

right. They're always. There's

26:36

not that recognition of, Oh,

26:38

create a tool or, or,

26:40

or discover something, discover an approach.

26:43

It's like, Oh, I'm got a force, but dammit, we're going

26:45

to use, we're going to use this saw in this

26:47

situation. I've talked a lot.

26:50

You're being go ahead. So

26:54

I can vision a place and this

26:56

is why I do what I do. So I

26:59

choose. To embed

27:01

with teams and companies longer.

27:05

I can imagine a world where

27:07

if I chose two more

27:09

quick hitters. Yeah.

27:12

That I would just get to

27:14

the point where it's like, dammit, people

27:17

just do scrum. Like, just

27:19

like, if you're, to

27:21

me, it depends on how you travel the world

27:24

as an agile coach. If, and I

27:26

don't know Ryan's business model, but I know Ryan

27:28

does a lot. Right. So I can imagine

27:30

Ryan talking to a lot of different people

27:33

and right.

27:34

Let's take Ryan out, but you're right. There

27:36

are folks there's trainers and stuff. So part

27:38

of the business model, part of the industrial complex,

27:41

right. Is there's a breadth over depth. Right.

27:43

And, and you're right. And,

27:45

and yeah. From what I've

27:47

seen in the industry. So many

27:49

of the struggles out there are because

27:51

they're just not doing the basics,

27:54

right. They, they, aren't doing

27:56

the drills. The coach gave them to

27:58

do, they aren't practicing their foot work.

28:00

They're just, and they're wondering why they aren't getting

28:02

any quicker or why they're whatever. So

28:05

all of those things happen. So I can,

28:07

which is, which is why I

28:09

have chosen in my career path

28:11

to not go down that.

28:14

That that chosen road, because it, I

28:17

can imagine it frustrating me and I can

28:19

imagine me not being

28:21

as effective. So I've chosen

28:23

to steer down the longer-term path because

28:26

that's where I feel effective. That's where I get enthused.

28:28

That's where I find joy.

28:32

But I can envision a world where

28:34

as a, as a person that does a

28:36

lot more quick hitters, it's just going to be like, Oh

28:39

no, do the deck on thing, just

28:41

like, go do this.

28:42

Right. Well, you have a small eye.

28:44

So that's a level, that's a, a

28:46

layer that I hadn't considered. And

28:49

you're right. And thank you for that. I

28:51

still, as you were talking, I still come back to

28:54

a key metric for me is

28:57

for, for any of these folks, it's not about Ryan.

29:00

It's not, it's not about safe. It's

29:02

about when do you not. I

29:05

think, in fact, I think there's a blog

29:07

post probably gonna pop out in there

29:09

or something, but it's like

29:11

that strive. W

29:14

how do we strive as these change

29:16

agents to look

29:18

for opportunities to suggest out

29:20

of our comfort zone? Do you know what I mean? There's

29:22

gotta be opportunities for that. Yeah.

29:25

And I, and I, I don't see these people. I

29:27

don't see a lot of folks doing that. I

29:29

do see general purpose. There are these general

29:32

purpose coaches. I'm one of them

29:34

like I don't hang my hat so

29:36

strongly on a methodology. I hang my

29:38

hat. On agile

29:41

and lean principles. I think the problem

29:43

is the minute you more firmly hang your business

29:45

or hang your philosophy or hang your hat that

29:48

on one area, one tool you

29:51

run, you run the race of being tool

29:53

centric. You have the risk of being

29:55

one of the, as we talked about with being a

29:57

one trick pony, remember that episode?

29:59

Yep. This sort of goes into that one trick

30:01

pony. I think we were talking about it from a coaching point

30:03

of view, but this is from a serious,

30:06

these people were seriously experienced.

30:08

But they're choosing to use the single

30:10

tool. You know, revenue's a part of

30:12

it time with a client as a part of it. But

30:14

we need to strive. Maybe a fix

30:17

is, is being flamboyant

30:19

enough or bold enough to really

30:21

force ourselves to get out of our comfort zone

30:23

and say, no, you don't need to do that. Even if it's

30:25

not to a client, even if it's like a blog post

30:28

or something. Yeah. Right. And just, just

30:30

sort of rewiring ourselves. I

30:33

think there's a self-awareness aspect. I don't

30:35

think folks are self-aware of how stuck

30:37

they get Right.

30:39

All right. So let's wrap it up with some, like, Take

30:42

home things for

30:44

all of our lists, our take home things. That's a,

30:47

that's a new segment. We just created

30:50

the wrap of like, okay, cool,

30:52

Bob, I hear you.

30:53

So you're a shoe. So if you're a shoe team,

30:56

then I, as we were saying, I

30:58

think it's good to follow whatever

31:01

recipe, whether it's safe recipe,

31:04

whether it's safe, scrum, whether it's scrum, it's Kanban

31:06

and do it well. Like do it by the book,

31:09

but at some point in your journey

31:11

and I would argue early, if you

31:14

are getting results the minute you

31:16

see positive results, positive outcomes,

31:18

positive delivery, positive teamwork,

31:21

then almost immediately

31:23

start challenging yourselves to do experiments.

31:26

And it's not just things like, Oh, we're going to use

31:28

user stories in this format or other. Try

31:31

like turning off parts of scrum and

31:34

turning on parts of scratch, like, you

31:36

know, extend I don't know, experiment

31:39

listening to the team and

31:41

extending, like not having a daily standup,

31:44

right. I think most pundits

31:46

would say, that's a stupid idea. Why would

31:48

I would as well, I'd come in at what you do, you

31:50

know, Oh, you're not getting your results.

31:53

Are you doing a daily standup? No. That's

31:56

the reason why you suck because

31:58

you're not doing a daily stand up, right? Yeah.

32:00

Right. And so not triggering

32:02

on things like that, but really giving yourself

32:04

a license to experiment

32:07

and to try things in order to get continuous

32:09

improvement and not

32:12

get stuck on. Oh, that's not scrum. In

32:14

fact, look at that as about it. Like that's

32:16

not safe. Cool. It

32:19

works for us. Yeah, exactly. Does that scrum?

32:21

Oh, darn it, it works for us. Right,

32:24

right. If it works for you

32:26

and you get really good results, if

32:28

you have good value and good connection with your

32:30

customers and good teamwork and

32:32

high quality, well then who gives a rat's

32:34

ass if you're doing scrum. Yeah.

32:36

Okay. So my, my take away.

32:39

Thing.

32:40

Can I say rat's ass just now? I don't

32:42

know. I mean, you just did. I

32:44

don't know if you did before that, but yeah.

32:46

Yeah. That's okay. Go ahead. What were you

32:48

going to say?

32:49

Your wrap up is

32:52

stop. So

32:54

this should get posted on the Monday morning. The

32:58

next day after you listen to this and

33:02

inspect your process,

33:04

what you do the way your teams operate,

33:07

has it changed? If

33:10

it hasn't do

33:13

one thing and don't do another, the

33:15

thing to do is just like, we're going to change stuff

33:17

just to change stuff. No, sit

33:19

down as a team and say, Hey.

33:22

We haven't changed. Why is

33:24

that? W w there has like, we're

33:26

a smart group of people we

33:28

have to, I I'm, I'm assuming

33:31

there's something that drives all of

33:33

you bonkers that everyone

33:36

here wishes was better, but you know what?

33:38

We got lazy and we decided not to

33:40

continuously improve those things. So

33:42

let's so pick one thing. Pick

33:44

one thing thoughtfully, as Bob said,

33:47

thoughtfully experiment with it and

33:49

see what happens because you may

33:52

have fallen into the same trap where,

33:55

Hey, we're just doing scrub and that's it. And like,

33:57

where were we followed by the book or we're doing

33:59

safe. We've got the big poster on the wall and we're not

34:01

going to, yes, it is

34:03

kind of harder than it should be, or it's frustrating,

34:06

but we're going to keep doing it because that's what the poster says.

34:09

No. Investigate

34:11

discuss thoughtfully experiment.

34:13

What

34:14

things can I have one more please?

34:16

And if you, if you're a scrum shop and

34:19

you recently changed something because

34:21

the scrum guide 2020 told

34:24

you to do it or

34:26

no. Oh, no longer do it. So

34:29

you were doing something based on your view of

34:31

scrum from the 2017 guide

34:34

and you changed something. For whatever

34:36

reason to the 2020

34:38

guide, I want you to go

34:40

back to what you and you did it just because

34:42

the 2020 guide told you to,

34:46

I would like to encourage you to say,

34:48

kiss my butt 20, 20 guide

34:51

and go back to working, doing

34:53

what was working for you, whether it's

34:56

scrum or not because it was working for

34:58

you. So do that analysis.

35:00

I like it. So from

35:02

beautiful downtown phew

35:05

quaver arena, North Carolina, very

35:07

above Dawson. And I'm Josh Anderson shake

35:10

and bake y'all take care.