David and Grant are very lucky to have a conversation with former Deputy Secretary of the Department of Immigration in the Australian government.

He shares how decisions are made and how policy is applied by the public service. A very knowledgable contribution and an entertaining discussion about current issues in immigration facing Australia.

Check out more about Abul here;

https://www.cbe.anu.edu.au/alumni/alumni-hall-of-fame/abul-rizvi-psm/