0:00

I thought in Little Astronaut, you conveyed

0:03

some really strong feelings about our marriage

0:06

and the pain of childbirth and

0:08

all these things that... I

0:10

remember when I first started sharing those poems, I

0:12

emailed them to you. I emailed

0:15

them as just like, oh, these are some things

0:17

I wrote. And you're like, it's

0:20

good. It hurts, but it's good that you wrote

0:22

them. It was painful. But

0:25

I think that that's good. I really do.

0:27

And I encourage you in the future to

0:30

swing away. You've encouraged me for sure.

0:34

I'm not a person that lets people in.

0:36

So if I am

0:39

communicating something, it's usually pretty layered.

0:44

That is the voice of the

0:46

great poet, J. Hope Stein, aka

0:48

Jen, aka Chloe. Also

0:51

happens to be my wife, often

0:53

creative collaborator. This is a

0:56

really cool episode. We

0:58

talk a lot about poetry, a lot about comedy.

1:01

She published work of her own

1:03

poetry in The New Yorker, The

1:05

New York Times, Poetry International. She

1:08

has her own book called Little

1:10

Astronaut that is coming out on

1:12

audiobook for Mother's Day. It's

1:15

going to be on Libro FM. It's going

1:17

to be on Audible. I

1:19

believe on a lot of those places, you

1:21

can pre-order it now. She

1:24

has a wonderful voice and I'm her

1:26

husband. So I would say that even

1:28

if she didn't have a wonderful voice. But

1:30

she does have a wonderful voice. So it

1:32

leaves me in a little bit of a

1:35

pickle because I have to say

1:37

it. But then also she just... Anyway,

1:39

the point is, you'll see our

1:42

dynamic in this conversation. I compliment

1:44

her a lot and she shoes

1:46

off compliments very deftly. You

1:50

might know also her poems are projected onto

1:52

the screen in my special The

1:54

New One. And we also wrote a book

1:56

together called The New One with

1:58

Poems by J. Hope's Time. The

2:01

tour by the way is going super super well.

2:03

It was kind of a breakthrough week. In

2:06

Tulsa and in Texas I

2:08

actually just sent like a longer form version

2:10

email out if you want to join the

2:12

email list. I regularly send

2:15

little newsletters that I used to call

2:17

my secret public journal out with

2:19

a bunch of sort of jokes and stories about

2:21

Tulsa. In Texas I'm heading

2:23

to the Chicago theater. This week,

2:26

this Friday and Saturday two shows

2:28

are sold out. The third

2:30

show on Saturday night has a

2:32

few tickets left. One of my

2:34

favorite theaters in the world. Then

2:37

I go to Los Angeles for Netflix

2:39

as a joke. I'm gonna be on

2:41

Jimmy Kimmel Live. I'm gonna be also

2:43

on Jon Stewart and Friends at

2:45

the Greek theater. I opened for Jon

2:47

at Meriwether post pavilion many years ago

2:49

and it was pure joy. His fans

2:52

are so smart and such

2:54

comedy nerds. So I'm super psyched for that.

2:57

Then I added a show in Troy, New York. I'll

2:59

be in Rochester. I added

3:01

a fourth and final show in Toronto

3:03

at the Elgin theater which I love.

3:06

I'll be in St. Petersburg, Florida, Miami.

3:08

I just added a second show in

3:10

Westport, Connecticut at the Westport Country Playhouse.

3:13

This is one of the prettiest theaters in the

3:15

country. It's like this little 500 seat theater about

3:18

an hour an hour and a half from New York City

3:20

and it's gorgeous. I mean it's

3:22

just wonderful. I've done shows

3:24

there before and I'm doing some in

3:26

June. The Beacon Theatre

3:28

in New York is sold out. I'll

3:31

be in Atlanta. We added

3:33

a second show in Charlotte. We added a second

3:35

show in Richmond. There's a

3:37

few tickets left in DC. There's

3:39

a fourth and final show. I'll

3:41

be in Niagara Falls. I'll be

3:43

in Sag Harbor. We added a

3:45

second show in Red Bank at

3:47

the Count Basie Center for the

3:49

Arts. I love that theater. In

3:52

the fall, I'll be in Seattle,

3:54

Portland, San Francisco, Oakland, Philadelphia, Minneapolis,

3:57

Madison, Milwaukee, Champaign, Indianapolis, and

3:59

in Arbor, Detroit, Dayton,

4:01

Pittsburgh, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville,

4:03

Asheville, and Charleston. There will be

4:05

more cities added, but that is

4:08

at this point, I think we're

4:10

at about 45 cities.

4:12

But keep telling me about cities that

4:14

I'm missing. I hear you,

4:16

Kansas City. I hear

4:19

you, Iowa City. I hear you, St.

4:21

Louis. I'm working on it. I think

4:23

we'll get there. We'll make it happen.

4:27

But today on the podcast, I'm

4:29

talking to my wife, Jenny. Jen

4:31

has been a collaborator of mine

4:33

for many years. You can find

4:35

her on Instagram at J. Hopestein.

4:38

That's at J-H-O-P-E-S-T-E-I-N. You

4:42

can link through to her new audio book

4:44

for Mother's Day, A Little Astronaut. You can

4:46

link through to her merch,

4:49

t-shirts, and tote bags and things to

4:51

go along with her Earth

4:53

Day poems. I'm writing to

4:55

you from an island made of plastic merch.

4:59

That's one of a kind. Enjoy my

5:01

conversation with the brilliant J. Hopestein.

5:13

We are here with my beloved wife, Jen

5:16

Firstein, AKA J. Hopestein the Poet.

5:18

Hello, Jen. Hey, baby. How

5:21

you doing? Thanks for having me. Third

5:23

time. Yeah. Third

5:25

visit. Maybe this is the one. Maybe this is

5:27

the one. Which

5:30

is a perfect start to your

5:33

self-deprecating, your signature self-deprecating humor. Thank

5:35

you. That I know all too

5:37

well. People only know you from

5:39

your poetry. You try to break

5:41

my self-deprecating humor and you want me to be more self-loving.

5:47

That is true. We

5:49

want to go on that tangent right away. No,

5:52

sorry. Okay, let's

5:54

circle back to that. Save it for therapy. Yeah,

5:56

save it for therapy. No, no, no. We'll

5:59

keep it for the podcast. I have to

6:01

introduce this. Okay, thanks. So I'm here with my

6:03

wife, Jennifer Hopes-Time, third time

6:05

on the podcast. So I

6:07

think today can be kind of an open-ended episode

6:10

of the podcast because we are, in

6:12

addition to being married, best friends, lovers,

6:17

collaborators, we are always in

6:19

dialogue about our own work.

6:22

So I say I'm always sharing new work with

6:24

you, you're sharing new work with me. Yeah. My

6:29

question for you is, and we'll start with this,

6:33

when you're sharing work, what's your favorite thing to hear

6:35

as feedback? I

6:40

think that for me, if somebody

6:43

who doesn't usually read poetry is

6:46

understanding or enjoying or getting something out of

6:48

my work for a moment or within a

6:51

moment of a poem that I write, it's

6:53

very satisfying because I want

6:56

to write poetry that everybody

6:58

can read, not sort of an academic type

7:00

of poetry, but a type of poetry that

7:03

anybody can read, and someone who might not

7:05

understand poetry can read, and I think that's

7:07

the sort of goal. So if anyone feels

7:10

that when they hear my work, it makes me happy.

7:14

So you like refrigerate or magnet

7:16

poetry? Yeah. Whatever

7:19

makes you feel something, that's what I say. I

7:21

know that there's a lot of different camps within

7:23

poetry, these kind of poets, those kind of poets

7:26

or whatever, and I sort of

7:28

just feel like it doesn't matter, it just matters

7:30

how people are feeling when they hear something. I

7:32

think you and I have that, that's one

7:34

of the many things you and I have in common,

7:37

which is I feel similarly about comedy,

7:40

which is to say, there's some

7:43

schools of thought where people go

7:45

like, well, I only

7:47

like comedy, that's witty, or

7:50

I only like comedy that's

7:52

sophisticated, and I don't

7:55

like stuff that's silly or goofy

7:57

or this or slapstick or physical

7:59

comedy. This is

8:01

a real thing that happened recently. Yeah, this is in relation to

8:03

something in our life. But

8:07

I actually think all

8:10

of the above, I'm interested

8:13

in. That's

8:15

how I feel. I like lowbrow and highbrow at the

8:17

same time in all art forms. I

8:22

always say this, that

8:25

when you and I met, I

8:27

was in a comedy central,

8:29

comedy special universe,

8:34

talk show, comedian, touring as a club

8:36

act. And

8:39

then I dipped my toe. I

8:42

was trying to go in the universe of writing

8:45

a solo show. I'd written a solo show called Sleepwalk

8:48

with me. And it

8:50

wasn't done yet by a long shot, but

8:52

you saw a very early version of it

8:54

at UCB Theater, the original UCB Theater, 26th

8:57

Street under Christides in

8:59

Manhattan. And you were like, you should do that, more of

9:02

that. And I think that as

9:04

I am so deeply in

9:06

love with you, I feel like I'm drawn to,

9:08

I think all of us

9:11

are secretly drawn, whether we realize or not,

9:13

to doing the thing that the

9:15

person we're in love with enjoys most about

9:17

us. You know, all

9:19

of us, it's like a statement, but for me. Well,

9:21

when I met you, you were determined to do

9:23

a one person show. And I just never met

9:25

anybody like that who was like, Oh, yes, hi,

9:27

I'm just I'm going to put a one person

9:29

show on stage next week. Like, I just didn't

9:31

even understand how you were going to do it.

9:33

And the fact that you just did it, you

9:35

just like went up and did it. And

9:38

I just couldn't believe it. I don't know. There's something

9:40

about it. I'll never get

9:42

over. And I was really, you'll truly

9:45

never get over. Never. You'll never get rid of

9:47

me. Never get rid of you or get over

9:49

it. The whole

9:51

get rid of you. Get

9:54

over it. The one, you know, one

9:56

of those things. The whole is strong. But

10:00

I don't know, I'd never seen anybody do anything like

10:02

that. And it really left an impression on me. And

10:04

I just was like, oh, yeah, you should be doing

10:06

that. But that was also just based on getting to

10:08

know you because as I got to know you, you

10:10

would just tell me these stories that were huge red

10:12

flags if you're dating somebody,

10:14

you know, and I put the

10:17

way you were telling them was like, made me

10:19

want to come back for more. And I was

10:21

just like, you should just do that on stage

10:23

because there's like an element of tension there where

10:26

you're just like, I shouldn't really be dating

10:28

this person. But I still

10:30

want to see them

10:33

tomorrow. Maybe they're not

10:35

red flags. Maybe they're beige flags.

10:37

Maybe let the audience decide for

10:39

themselves. I would sort of call them like a

10:41

neon pink. What

10:45

are they? What were they? Well, you

10:47

were just telling me all these stories about how you

10:49

were in relationships and

10:51

all the like how you don't want

10:53

to be in a relationship based on

10:55

these experiences and you would like lay

10:58

out the experiences. I

11:02

would lay out the experiences is the worst part. I

11:04

remember taking you to like a family

11:06

wedding. Like we got

11:08

very serious very quickly. Like we were just like

11:11

inseparable except when we were... I call it in

11:13

love. And

11:15

then I took you to like a family wedding.

11:17

This might be like the last wedding we ever

11:19

went to. It was like the first year we

11:22

met except for we went to Jack's wedding. Jack

11:24

and Margaret's wedding. But it was like a long

11:26

gap. And I think this is the reason why

11:28

because at this wedding we were like dancing and

11:30

you were just like

11:32

this. You were just like in this like

11:34

head space where you were really profoundly realizing

11:36

something that you wanted to communicate. And you

11:39

were like, it's so crazy because I'm like

11:41

so in love with you. I've never loved

11:43

anyone this much in my whole life. It's

11:45

so weird because we're not going to be

11:47

together. Yeah,

11:49

we're just like that. It's just like those kind of red flags. By

11:52

the way, straighten the act. Put

11:55

in the next show. I'm going to put in the next show.

11:57

You are? Can I put it in?

11:59

Sure. Perfect, a bread flag

12:01

example. Yeah, and just, I

12:03

don't know, every time you talked about your

12:05

past relationships, it was in a way, it

12:07

was in a self-deprecating way where you sort

12:09

of understood what you did wrong and

12:12

it was beautiful and thoughtful

12:14

and funny, like your shows, but

12:16

should you marry that person? Yes.

12:21

The way you said yes was

12:24

not convincing. Well, now it's a big yes,

12:26

but like when you first met you, it was not

12:28

a yes. I know this is fun. Even

12:30

the way you said big yes, not

12:33

convincing? I'm happy

12:35

with my choices. Even

12:37

the way you said I'm happy

12:39

with my choices, not convincing? By

12:42

the way, this morning when I took Ina Tsukul,

12:44

I told her I was gonna be on this podcast. I

12:46

was like, what should we talk about? And she was like,

12:48

it's just gonna be like you guys talking at the table

12:51

and this is kind of like what it's like when we

12:53

talk at the table. This is full

12:55

on, exactly us in life.

12:59

Yeah, that's not much of a

13:01

difference, but yeah. Sorry, I was just thinking

13:03

of that. But

13:05

yeah, I'm super happy. I was

13:07

thinking of it because there's times where we just

13:09

sort of declare our love to each other at

13:12

the table. Well, I think this

13:14

is actually kind of a sweet thing about

13:17

us, I think, is when Ina

13:20

was really little, her

13:22

daughter was really little, and she could

13:24

only see from here to here kind of thing. I

13:27

would try to put us together face

13:31

to face, side by side, you and

13:33

I, so that she could

13:35

see in the same frame our heads together

13:38

lovingly. That's right, that's sweet. So

13:40

that's a sweet thing. Yeah. What

13:42

other red flags were by me? So the red flags

13:44

about me were, I

13:47

was talking about past relationships that had failed and all

13:49

the things I had done wrong. And-

13:52

It was literally like going to one of your one

13:54

person shows where it's like a

13:56

full like, here's

13:58

something I did. There was

14:01

the prostitute story that you told

14:04

me our second week dating. Right, that's in the

14:06

new one, yeah. And I

14:08

love that story. Yeah, the Amsterdam story.

14:10

The Amsterdam story. Yeah. And

14:13

that one, I mean, it

14:15

wasn't a red flag. It was just so

14:17

not a thing that you jump out and

14:19

say when you just start getting to know

14:21

someone. Right. So

14:24

I think that you just couldn't

14:26

help telling me. I

14:29

mean, sort of like everything

14:31

that someone would find sort

14:34

of challenging about you as

14:36

a partner. And so you sort of

14:39

got that out of the way, like the first

14:41

month. Sleepwalking. Sleepwalking. Yep.

14:44

Everything. And you

14:46

would just be like, I'm a really complicated guy.

14:49

And I'd be like, oh, and I think a

14:51

lot of people think like on the surface, you're

14:53

just like very agreeable generally.

14:56

And you're just sort of easy to hang with and

14:58

that kind of thing. But you actually are a complicated

15:00

guy. And there is a lot of some

15:03

like things going on underneath the

15:05

surface. And so you

15:07

want more about that. You wanted to let me know

15:09

that really early, I think because I don't

15:12

know, because we just both didn't think it was

15:14

going to last. So you just like told me

15:17

everything. And then I think that

15:19

well, we can talk more about it. But I

15:22

think that in the beginning, it had the effect

15:24

of making me super uncomfortable with thinking of you

15:26

as a long term person that I would be

15:28

with. But I was having a

15:30

great time and I enjoyed my time with you.

15:33

But then in the long term, I was like,

15:35

I said, someone I can really trust because they

15:37

cannot help but say all of

15:39

these things constantly about like their worst

15:41

thoughts, their worst feelings, getting

15:43

to know you with that experience where I

15:46

got to like experience

15:48

this honesty as like

15:50

with stakes with real personal stakes.

15:53

Like real personal stakes because we were about

15:55

to engage on a 20 to 100 year

15:57

relationship. We've

16:01

been together 20 years. Well, you would just be

16:03

like, no, you don't

16:05

understand. I'm a pretty dark person. And

16:08

most people don't think Mike's a dark person. I

16:11

say it like 100 times in my act,

16:13

though. It's the strangest thing I say. I

16:15

just consistently tell people. I literally have a

16:17

joke in my act right now where I

16:19

go, last year Jen said

16:21

to me, I feel like sometimes I

16:23

feel like you're unhappy. And I'm like,

16:25

right. I was never happy. And then

16:28

we met. I fell in love. I'm

16:30

so unhappy. Like I literally say outright,

16:32

like I have a complicated situation. I

16:36

think there's a second emotional situation. I think there's a segment

16:38

of people who think you're sort of happy, go lucky kind

16:40

of person. But what

16:43

shows you something about comedians? Yeah, my

16:45

comedian friends think I'm the stable one.

16:47

I'm like, no, no, I'm not stable. I'm

16:49

just able to show up on time.

16:54

You do show up on time. Yeah, I think my

16:56

one day. I think it's a great arrival.

16:58

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thank you. Will

19:32

you read one of your earthy

19:34

poems? Yeah. Earth

19:36

themed poems? Sure. I was gonna read the plastic

19:38

island poem from the plastic thing. I'm

19:42

writing to you from an island made of plastic.

19:46

There's no food here says earth. The

19:48

people keep their nipples on ice, breastfeed

19:51

each other to survive. What

19:53

do your people do to pacify? We

19:56

moved to New York city to be remembered I tell

19:58

earth, but nothing. New York City

20:00

will be remembered. Not a

20:02

freezer full of smuggled Russian

20:04

vodka in a midtown subway tunnel

20:07

bar named Siberia, where fully

20:09

closed and with no touching

20:11

we spend like Neptune, with two

20:13

a.m.s just off work dancing

20:15

girls. Nor the

20:17

flivered light of numbered streets mourning that

20:20

pinkens the towers down the avenue. No

20:23

says earth, certainly not the morning. Not

20:26

a trash can in West Chelsea where I once

20:28

left all the love letters I ever received and

20:30

all the poems I ever wrote. Not

20:33

the vegan place with the garden

20:36

seating or the vegan rats celebrating at

20:38

our feet. Nor

20:41

the dugout canoes of the Lenape crossing the

20:43

Hudson says earth before it

20:45

was called the Hudson for the man

20:48

of Amsterdam and was called Shatmuk for

20:50

its nature, meaning flowing in two directions.

20:54

Not the Lenape people picking berries on Second

20:56

Avenue where there is now a rat and

20:58

a foot. New York

21:00

City is built on schist. Nothing

21:02

you do will amount to a

21:04

petrified ball of dinosaur dung giggles earth

21:07

but we must keep shitting. Limestone

21:09

says earth get yourself a big bed

21:12

of fossil loving limestone and you'll be

21:14

as happy as an imprint

21:16

of a prehistoric clam. And

21:19

the river whispers earth but

21:21

I know what earth is going to say about the

21:23

river. She answers to

21:26

Shatmuk. You

21:28

look like you could use a drink says earth and

21:30

parts her blue blouse to me. Between

21:33

tongue and roofs the bear strip

21:35

nipple rolls. Eye

21:38

swallowing swallowing that great

21:40

swallowing by its lilac

21:42

milk myself gulped. Atrocity

21:45

and sound. Atrocity

21:47

and garbage and song. I'm

21:50

writing to you from an island made of plastic.

21:54

We are capable of great atrocity. We

21:57

are also capable, aren't we, of

22:00

great song. Oh,

22:02

I love that. One of

22:04

the things I like about it so much is, um, it

22:07

reminds me of that book you got me

22:09

called Here, which is a graphic novel, which

22:12

has kind of, it's like a zoom in and

22:14

a zoom out of like, yeah, 50, 50

22:17

million years ago. And then like 1952 and

22:21

then like 2025. And then, yeah, Richard

22:24

Macguire, BC. Yeah, it's a

22:27

graphic novel called Here by Richard Macguire.

22:30

Um, and I was probably

22:32

reading that when I wrote these poems a

22:34

few years ago. And they were definitely influenced.

22:36

It was a really influential book on me.

22:38

And I bought that for you because I

22:40

felt like it was a good time for

22:42

you to read it. But it's

22:44

all about, yeah, it's about just sort

22:47

of living on this planet and all

22:49

the scope of things

22:51

that have happened over time and personal

22:54

from personal loss and different moments that

22:56

we live here to like, yeah,

22:58

like a dinosaur was living in the space that we're

23:00

living in right now. So it's

23:02

a really beautiful book. I always get it for

23:05

people who I feel like are going through a

23:07

tough time. Yeah. Yeah.

23:09

I think like I love this poem.

23:12

I love that book here. I love

23:14

a lot. I love things where people

23:17

are able to zoom into

23:19

the specificity of what's beautiful about

23:21

things and zoom out into

23:25

the idea that we're just

23:28

molecules and dust ultimately.

23:30

Yeah. And I think the other thing I

23:32

was really inspired

23:35

by is there is a mile in

23:37

made of plastic in

23:39

the Pacific Ocean. And it's just like sort

23:41

of like a gyre of just

23:43

like plastic from all over like the world

23:46

that just ends up in this one spot

23:48

just through the tides. And it's pretty massive.

23:50

And I don't know, there was something about

23:52

the metaphor of that that really want that

23:54

I wanted to explore. So I do I

23:56

have like a bunch of poems about it.

24:00

I was pretty obsessed with it for a while. You

24:02

know, when you talk about not a

24:04

freezer full of Russian vodka in a

24:06

midtown subway tunnel bar named Siberia, we're

24:08

fully clothed with no touching, we spun

24:11

like Neptune with 2am just

24:13

off work dancing girls. Like do you take

24:15

that from life? Yes,

24:18

that's a very specific memory I had

24:20

where when I first started working in

24:22

the city, there was this really amazing

24:24

subway bar on the 51st

24:27

street, I think it was the 2-3. Inside

24:31

the subway tunnel, there was like an

24:33

unmarked door. And if you opened it,

24:35

it was just this amazing bar called

24:38

Siberia and they served Russian, cold Russian

24:40

vodka. And it was open all night.

24:42

And so in that

24:44

neighborhood, there are a lot of sort

24:46

of dancing girl peep shows type things.

24:50

And they would get off work at about two in the morning.

24:52

And then they would hit that bar. So we

24:55

would just be dancing there and hanging out. And

24:57

it was just, it was one of

24:59

my favorite New York city experiences,

25:01

I think partially because it was when I

25:03

first moved to New York and it was

25:06

also, I don't know, there's

25:08

something magical about it. I think I

25:10

like the idea of things that feel planetary, but

25:12

also feel very intimate.

25:17

And there's another specific moment

25:21

in that poem, which is about you and I

25:23

going to, I think a dojo, many, many, the

25:25

vegan restaurant with the

25:27

vegan, yeah. So we went there. I mean, this

25:29

was like the first year we were dating and

25:32

I don't even mention what happened that day, but

25:34

it was sort of a volatile time in our

25:36

relationship and specifically like one of the more volatile

25:38

days. But what all, all that

25:40

made it into the poem was, um,

25:44

the rest, the vegan restaurant and the vegan

25:46

rats. So I was

25:48

just playing around with that and pulling

25:50

in some moments in my life that

25:52

felt very vivid to me. Um,

25:54

yeah. What was our

25:56

volatile part of our Relationship with that

25:59

moment? Do You remember? No.

26:01

Idea. Of

26:04

ours were that was actually.

26:07

That was late that day that was of a

26:09

me broke up so I think that was. To

26:11

remember that time we broke up for three months ago.

26:15

So. We broke up before we

26:17

came back together and then decided

26:19

to ultimately get married, but there

26:21

is a break up period for

26:23

three months and that line? celebrity.

26:25

The classic religion is your moment we

26:27

break up or do we get married?

26:29

Yes, So that was that moment and.

26:32

We doubled down. You know I can

26:34

tell you details of you want details my

26:36

he may be embarrassed. Of

26:38

embarrassment and. Hence we got into

26:40

fired after lunch in the East

26:42

Village. You know this is going.

26:45

On another story and then we're.

26:47

In the middle of a sigh is and it's

26:49

pretty. The most embarrassing story and most

26:52

of all and we need mean the

26:54

balls at one point that came out

26:56

sir. Where

26:58

they will never you need me in

27:00

the ball which was kinda crazy I

27:02

never went to die while and before

27:04

sense now on we were the argument

27:07

the street that you see as a

27:09

New Yorker and years her daughter of

27:11

the our ever all the time on

27:13

the senior like whoa there really gone

27:15

through it that was that for us

27:17

and. As lot happened someone walks by

27:19

and the guy or big there

27:21

are some. Of that

27:23

and nearly. And then you are and that's

27:25

really and what you want. In. The

27:28

battle of an emotional that sort of a

27:30

only warm significant other. And for the other.

27:32

One to have a random stranger

27:34

tell them that there are some

27:36

S S and then I And

27:38

then he said. This

27:40

neighborhood is my demographic. Ah, Thursday

27:43

the I did say that I'm

27:45

so embarrassed both of them are

27:47

choosing to put this on air.

27:50

I think this is like the deathly, the lowest

27:52

moment of fire, really. sunset. Think. That around

27:54

lobby will my demographic that day

27:56

reserve and that a zealous. And.

28:00

And then we broke up for three months and

28:02

then we got back together. We

28:04

went and we saw the passenger. Yeah.

28:07

Um, will you read, this is one

28:09

of your earth poems, will you read

28:11

how the sea turned to ammunition? Yeah,

28:14

thanks. How

28:17

the sea turned to ammunition. It

28:21

was a devastating hurricane season, says

28:23

earth, when the AR-15s

28:25

were brought to the shoreline at dusk.

28:29

I saw gunmetal instead of fingers. Humans,

28:32

says earth. I

28:34

saw their silhouettes at dusk. The

28:38

years are defined by fingers, says earth, in

28:40

the grip of a trigger or running

28:42

themselves through hair, then

28:45

refraining from touch. Country

28:48

first shouts President Cheeseburgers

28:51

in an imported business suit declaring

28:53

war on the sea, which was flooding

28:55

the land. It

28:58

was a devastating AR-15 season for

29:01

the sea and the schoolchildren. Gun

29:04

sounds, I heard them. I saw

29:07

their silhouettes at dusk. I

29:10

love that. I

29:13

think for like, for me, the, what I

29:16

get of it all, and I

29:18

think it's the reason I enjoy it, is

29:21

it, to me, it takes these current

29:25

issues, one

29:27

being mass

29:30

shootings, gun violence, and

29:33

combines it with this kind of like ecological

29:36

disaster that we're dealing with, with the

29:39

ocean right now. And it merges

29:41

those two things together, but it

29:43

doesn't. By merging them, it's

29:45

kind of the statement unto itself, as opposed

29:48

to there being a statement

29:50

within it. Yeah,

29:53

I feel like poetry, what's fun

29:55

about it is you can do

29:57

these sort of merging, emerging and

30:00

sort of have one sort of connect to the

30:02

other. And I guess

30:04

the trick is to try to figure out how

30:06

to do that without being overbearing and

30:09

sort of explaining too much

30:11

and just sort of letting the images speak

30:13

for themselves and sort of see what it

30:16

can paint. Yeah,

30:18

I see jokes really similarly. Like

30:20

if I have a joke that

30:23

I can't picture what

30:26

the story is or I can't picture

30:28

what it is, like I always describe

30:31

it as like it doesn't have enough cinema. I

30:35

feel like poetry is kind of similar, right? I

30:38

think so, yeah, it's image-based. It's

30:40

definitely like your ability to use

30:42

an image to sort of convey

30:44

kind of an unexplainable, intangible thing

30:46

that when you're, whatever, if you're

30:49

writing a joke, if you're making

30:52

a painting or a poem, like that

30:54

something larger than you comes

30:57

forth and I don't know, just

30:59

like that expression that

31:01

a human can make is I find it

31:03

endlessly possible. I think. I

31:05

find it endlessly possible. So

31:24

we did a show recently where we

31:26

asked people to ask me questions, like

31:28

a Q and A. One of the questions we get is,

31:31

are you able to veto jokes?

31:33

Yeah, well, it's not like. That include

31:35

you. I don't

31:38

do hard vetoes, I don't think,

31:40

but I definitely think that there's

31:42

been moments in our life where

31:44

it's really like our personal life

31:46

is very complicated and in process

31:49

and sometimes scary, sometimes

31:53

like really hard things are going

31:55

on. And so at those moments,

31:57

I'm usually like. I

32:00

need a little time

32:02

before we even think about

32:05

you talking about this on stage.

32:07

And I think that's hard. Those are really hard

32:09

conversations to have. But

32:12

I don't feel like I give you hard videos. You

32:14

definitely say, oh, here's a joke that is

32:17

this OK? If I

32:19

say this, I feel like I'm usually

32:22

pretty open. But you would say even

32:24

no more. And sometimes I'll just add to it and

32:26

say, well, here's my thoughts about it,

32:28

or here's my side of it. I

32:30

think also when it comes to our daughter, we have

32:34

to be careful because we talked about her a lot

32:36

when she was a baby. But now

32:38

that she's like a person, we have to

32:40

be a little more careful about the ways

32:42

in which we talk about her. I

32:45

think one of the things that is

32:47

helpful about two

32:50

artists, you know, coexisting,

32:52

although there's many challenges to it, but one

32:54

of the things that's the upside is, is

32:57

that often I'll tell you a thing I'm working on and

32:59

you'll say, I remember it this

33:01

way. Or one thing you might want to

33:03

include is this. And

33:05

more often than not, that ends up leading

33:07

down a more fruitful path

33:09

and a more dimensional version of the

33:11

joke and story. Right. That's

33:13

the hope is that it's like a positive. I

33:17

think that there's been a couple of

33:19

times where I've definitely had to be

33:21

like, I really don't

33:23

think that you can talk about

33:25

that on stage right now. And it's painful

33:27

to have to like say it in that

33:29

way because I know that it's sort

33:32

of against our like

33:34

overall agreement as to sort of

33:36

how we exist in the world.

33:40

But for the most part, when

33:42

it's coming to stuff about you and me, I

33:44

think it's sort of a yes and kind of

33:47

thing. I would hope

33:49

that that's your experience of it and

33:51

that it's not veto veto or not

33:53

that you're like stressed to like run

33:55

something by me. I also

33:57

think as like artists, it is important to

33:59

write. down the things you want

34:01

to write down and not to

34:03

not write them down. I think

34:05

there's a difference between writing the material

34:08

and putting it in front of

34:10

people or sharing it. I don't know. I

34:12

think there's like, but I think sometimes if you write the material,

34:14

it might

34:16

lead to another thing and so you can sort

34:19

of get away with it and it won't sort

34:21

of damage the sort of internal

34:23

family thing that we do need

34:25

to protect at certain points. Yeah,

34:28

I think that's true. And I think like I

34:30

always give that piece of advice because one of

34:32

the most common questions I get and I got

34:35

in that Q&A also is how

34:37

do you write about your personal life in

34:39

a way that doesn't hurt the people around

34:41

you or hurt their feelings, et cetera. And

34:44

I have a similar thing, which is like just

34:47

write it all down. And

34:50

then as time goes by and you have distance

34:52

from it, you'll see sort

34:54

of how it shakes out and how you

34:57

could write about it in a way that doesn't

34:59

necessarily hurt anyone's feelings. And

35:02

also like sometimes things can be make their way

35:04

into fiction. I thought in

35:06

Little Astronaut, you conveyed some

35:09

really strong feelings about our marriage and

35:12

the pain of childbirth and all

35:14

these things that... I remember

35:16

when I first started sharing those poems, I like sort

35:18

of emailed them to you or I emailed them

35:20

as just like, oh, these are some things I

35:22

wrote. And you're like, it's

35:25

good. It hurts, but it's good that you

35:27

wrote them. It was painful. But

35:30

I think that that's good. I really do.

35:32

And I encourage you in the future to

35:35

swing away. You've encouraged me for

35:37

sure. I just, I'm not

35:40

a person that lets people in. So if I

35:42

am saying, if

35:44

I am communicating something, it's usually pretty

35:46

layered. And

35:48

it's like through a different character usually. I

35:51

mean, I'm writing poetry because I don't really

35:53

communicate well in other ways. So

35:56

if I communicated well in other ways, I

35:58

would be writing very differently. And I would...

36:00

I wouldn't really need to write poetry

36:02

if I was able to just say things in

36:04

a straight-out way But for whatever reason

36:06

the way I think and the way I communicate

36:08

is more of a looping way Yeah,

36:12

well sometimes when you and I I I'm

36:15

trying to communicate with you. You're like don't

36:17

you realize? Like I

36:19

don't speak like this. I

36:22

write poems I'm

36:24

like right but like at some point like

36:26

we got to figure out like Which

36:30

day is off from school so

36:32

we can go to the museum Yeah,

36:36

you know I mean I do So

36:39

I say all these things that are Negative

36:41

about myself in the show. What

36:43

are the things that are so wonderful about

36:45

me that I'm just missing about myself Okay.

36:49

Well, you're just like like the other day we

36:51

were we dropped our daughter off at a birthday

36:53

party We were walking and you were like I

36:55

just want to say I'm really happy to be

36:57

spending this day with you and like You

36:59

know, we've been married a long time Like nobody

37:01

says that anymore like if I 20

37:04

year like you're just you're still

37:06

very like urgent and self Improving

37:08

in this way as like an

37:11

individual and as a team member

37:13

like in this way that is

37:15

so intense But

37:18

also just so beautiful also

37:20

your you make a lot of mistakes

37:25

This is negative again, I think You

37:32

keep going you just like fumble

37:34

around it's all from improv. Yeah, you fumble

37:36

around the mistakes are the beauty But I've

37:38

got a bit of energy you got to

37:41

find the pattern find the pattern in the

37:43

mistakes They're in lies the humor But

37:45

I think you really want people to say these

37:47

like you made a mistake here you need and

37:49

then you'd be like you Want

37:51

that interaction so deeply whereas I

37:53

think other people are

37:55

like don't Don't

37:57

want to face themselves. I think you really

38:00

are looking for people to help you face

38:02

yourself in this way that I think is really

38:05

beautiful and profound. Like I think if

38:07

anyone has a problem with you, just tell

38:10

them what the issue is.

38:13

Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah. I

38:17

think you're right that most people don't

38:19

want to have any discussion of what

38:21

the conflict is. Most people don't

38:23

want to and you're lying to. You're like, I'm

38:26

confused when people don't want to. I'm

38:28

like, why not? It's

38:31

all, I don't

38:33

know. That stuff's dicey.

38:36

It all roots back to this thing. Chris

38:38

Fleming was here the other day, the comedian,

38:40

great comedian. And

38:44

he's also from suburban Massachusetts and we

38:47

have this thing exact and common, which

38:49

is like we

38:51

grew up in this wildly

38:54

repressed Catholic upbringing where nobody

38:56

talks about anything. And

38:58

me and Chris, I think to some

39:00

degree have in common that we're trying

39:04

to end the cycle on that. Well,

39:07

a lot of people, including myself,

39:10

when some, like you've said to

39:12

me, like, oh, you said this thing that

39:14

upset me yesterday and I'll sort of be

39:16

defensive about it or I'll feel criticized by

39:18

it or I'll feel like, well, 99% of

39:22

everything else I said was amazing. Why

39:24

do we have to harp on this

39:26

1% thing that I didn't do perfectly?

39:28

Sort of like how I experienced it,

39:30

but the way you usually experience it

39:32

is you want

39:34

to dig in and you're

39:36

like, thank you for bringing

39:39

this up. You see it as like

39:41

a sign of interaction, love,

39:43

respect to bring it up, even

39:45

if it's a difficult thing. Whereas

39:48

I feel like I and some other people

39:50

take it as like, let's just keep moving.

39:52

Like 99% of this is working. Well,

39:55

because if we're not growing, aren't we just

39:57

dying? Yeah, Bob

39:59

Dylan. Yes,

40:02

we are. I know I agree with you. I think

40:04

it's a challenge for me in a good way. This

40:08

has been a very productive talk. Thank you. Thank

40:11

you for your challenges. This has been very helpful. The

40:21

last thing we do is working out for a cause. Is

40:23

there a nonprofit that you like to support? I

40:26

want us to do the Children's Hospital in Los

40:28

Angeles. Where Jimmy

40:31

Kimmel and Molly

40:33

McNerney have contributed a

40:35

lot. They do a lot of

40:37

work with the hospital and I feel like I

40:39

want to support them. That's a great one. We'll

40:41

contribute to Children's Hospital Los Angeles and

40:44

we will link to them in the show notes.

40:46

It's a great, great, great organization. Thank

40:49

you, J.Hope. Do I look sleepy? No.

40:54

Do I look sleepy? Thank you for marrying me. Thank

40:57

you for marrying me. How I

40:59

end every interview is. Thank

41:01

you for marrying me and we will link

41:03

to our marriage in the show notes. That's

41:16

going to do it for another

41:18

episode of Working It Out. Little

41:20

Astronaut, the audio book is available

41:22

for pre-order now. Comes out for

41:24

Mother's Day. It'll be on Audible.

41:26

It'll be on libro.fm or anywhere

41:28

where you get audio books. You

41:30

can find Jen on Instagram at

41:32

J.HopeStein. She posts all kinds

41:34

of cool animations related to her poetry. She's

41:37

a great follow. Check out verbiga.com

41:39

to sign up for the mailing list to be the first to

41:41

know about my upcoming shows. Our producers

41:43

of Working It Out are myself along with Peter

41:45

Salomon, Joseph Verbiglia, Mabel Lewis, our associate

41:47

producers Gary Simon, Soundmixed by Shub

41:50

Sarin, supervising engineer Kate Balinski. Special

41:52

thanks to Jack Anzalup and Bleachers

41:54

for their music. Love their new

41:56

album. It is out now.

41:58

Special thanks as always to our daughter Una

42:01

who built the original radio formative pillows. Thanks

42:03

most of all to you who are listening.

42:05

If you enjoy the show, please rate and

42:07

review on Apple Podcasts. People

42:09

wrote such nice things last week. Someone wrote

42:12

a nice thing about how

42:14

much they enjoyed the show in Houston and how

42:16

much they're enjoying the podcast. Some

42:18

people talk about how interrelated the live

42:20

tour shows are to the material they've

42:22

heard on the show and they enjoyed

42:24

seeing it in front of a crowd

42:26

in relation to listening to a podcast.

42:29

It's been a really, really cool journey.

42:31

Tell your friends, even

42:34

tell your enemies. Maybe you see a

42:36

couple people fighting on the street instead

42:38

of telling them that they're awesome. Maybe

42:40

say, hey, I don't mean to interrupt,

42:42

but maybe you'd both enjoy listening to

42:44

this podcast called Mike Birbigli's Working It

42:46

Out. It's a comedian who speaks

42:48

to other comedians, actors, filmmakers, even

42:51

poets. And sometimes in the past they've

42:53

argued like you, but now they've worked

42:55

it out. I'll see you next time

42:57

everybody.