0:15

Hey, what's up, everybody.

0:16

Welcome back to Mile higher podcast, episode 180 3.

0:21

Today we have a very interesting case to discuss today.

0:25

It's an older case that definitely needs to be talked about.

0:28

I don't think it's gotten nearly enough coverage.

0:30

It did end up on an episode of unsolved mysteries on Netflix, which is a fantastic series.

0:36

I really love the revamped version of it.

0:39

So we wanted to talk about it because it was one that really stood out to us and kind of blew us away.

0:44

So we will be getting into that.

0:47

Also. You probably noticed our sign has bit the dust sadly on.

0:52

Yeah. You know, it's just one thing after another here at the mile higher media, it seems like We're

0:57

just going with it at this point, you know, Josh

1:00

called kennel and I often was like, we were selling the house.

1:02

He was bad news. And we were like, what? He goes, the sun's broken.

1:05

We were like, oh fuck. Okay, well, we'll get it fixed, hangs up anyways, back to our conversation.

1:09

Like, what are we even supposed to do?

1:11

I know so many things have happened. We actually were supposed to be in our new studio by this time, but we just had so many delays and shipping delays and things.

1:21

Yeah. Just kind of working with what we have.

1:23

Eventually it will be a really cool set is in progress.

1:26

It's going to be awesome. And this time we'll do, Yeah,

1:29

we're going to have to fix it. I think.

1:30

Well, I mean, if you watch, you obviously are watch all of our shows, you know, that like this changes for each of the shows.

1:38

So literally I get on a step ladder and I have to there this sign, this giant signs being hung by two chains, two chains.

1:46

But anyway, but anyway, I have to get on a little ladder every time we do a show and take it down so it could have broken at any point in time.

1:58

And this is a real neon sign. So it's got the glass tubes.

2:01

So I guess what happens is sometimes you get hairline fractures in the tube and all of the gas, cause there's gas inside of the that's, what's lighting up the glass escapes.

2:12

And so it just kind of flicks on flicks off.

2:14

So it looks terrible. I mean, it looks like, I mean, horrible for show, but It's

2:20

a podcast, right.

2:21

Not to be listened to.

2:24

Yeah. But hopefully we'll get it fixed and we'll get it back up in the new studio, but Picks

2:28

her up. At least it's not smashed when you said bad news, the sign broke.

2:32

I thought you dropped it. Oh, so well, best case scenario, honestly.

2:37

Yeah. I think it's going to be able to be fixed luckily, but yeah, it's just been one thing after another.

2:40

And then a lot of you've been asking about planet sleep and sort of what happened with that.

2:45

I guess I never really even officially said really what happened with planet sleep.

2:50

So nothing happened as far as like, you know, something wrong with the show or anything like that.

2:56

It's just great. It was going great.

2:57

I was really enjoying it and I think there's like 11 hour long episodes on there, but really, it just comes down to allocation of my time.

3:06

And as you guys know, I mean, I, I run both of our companies.

3:10

I'm kind of the manager as well, so I have 10 employees and then also I record for mile hired lights out and then I was also doing planet sleep.

3:18

So just my schedule is absolutely insane.

3:20

I mean, it's still absolutely insane, but I Mean

3:23

more time with my Hubs. Exactly.

3:25

And just, I mean, it was just, I was getting, I was feeling burnout happening and I was also feeling like my performance on other shows like lights out in my higher words were slipping personally.

3:34

So I was just like, I need, it's just too much for one human to handle.

3:38

So, but It was a cool project and yeah, I mean, Who

3:42

knows? Yeah. I may return to it one day.

3:44

I don't know, but it'll always be out there.

3:46

And, and yeah. So for those that were wondering, you know, why there hasn't been any new episodes on planet sleep that's because it's just kind of on hold for now for the indefinite or, you know, who knows when they'll come Back.

4:01

But, But

4:03

yeah, so a lot going on just personally for us and business wise has just been absolutely crazy.

4:09

So thank you guys for hanging with us.

4:12

I know our schedules and upload dates have been kind of wonky lately.

4:15

We've had just so much going on, but we're, you know, this end of the year as well as just kind of busy for everybody.

4:21

So hopefully going into next year, we can really get our studios all set up and just really kind of fund our flow again when it comes to the shows.

4:30

But one other thing I wanted to mention regarding Harlem wellness, for those that didn't, didn't hear or know, we are actually running a really, really great sale right now on our thousand milligrams CBD oils.

4:40

They're normally 94 99 and they're now 69 99.

4:45

And we're running that for the next couple of weeks.

4:48

So definitely take advantage of that because you get double the CBD, which is just gonna help you feel the effects even more.

4:53

And they're great Oils. They're amazing, very good stuff.

4:56

And that's all the flavors as well.

4:58

So just want to throw that out there again, that's Harlem wellness.com, but, And we have international shipping to a few more kinds of Great

5:05

point. Yeah. Which that's even been crazy because now with the virus kind of coming back, like the postal service shut us down from shipping to New Zealand and Australia, unfortunately they're literally just not sending shipments from the United States.

5:20

They're, you know? Yeah. We can't do anything about that and deliver it to you, but Yeah.

5:23

So yeah, unfortunately, so right now it's UK and Mexico right now.

5:31

And hopefully we can expand into more countries next year.

5:34

And I know all of our Canadian fans are dying to get your hands on it.

5:38

And unfortunately we just can't get it up there yet, but it's tough, man.

5:41

Canada is tough. It's very tough to get into.

5:44

So I would've thought, yeah, it's been a learning experience, but anyway, we won't ramble on any more.

5:50

You ready to get into the episode?

5:52

Yes. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Zen business re con Headspace native and Quip.

5:57

So today we're talking about the disappearance of Christopher Dansby and Shane.

6:03

So

6:03

Christopher

6:03

Milton

6:03

Dansby

6:03

was

6:03

born

6:03

on

6:03

March

6:03

30th,

6:09

1987. He lived with his mother, Alison Dansby and his older brother Levon in Harlem, New York city.

6:15

And when all of this happened, Christopher was only two years old.

6:18

Lavonne was only three and their mother, Alison was 26.

6:22

Christopher's father was a 46 year old aircraft mechanic named Milton Robbins.

6:27

Melton lived in Miami and he wasn't really a part of Christopher's life.

6:31

Very much. Christopher went by the nickname choo choo and his brother Lavonne's nickname was poncho.

6:37

Christopher was a very happy and playful child who loved cuddling and spending time with his mother.

6:43

His dad described him as a very handsome curly haired boy and said that he was exceptionally beautiful.

6:49

Alison grew up in the Martin Luther king Jr towers, which is an affordable housing community in New York city.

6:55

And Alison still lived there with Christopher in 1989.

6:58

Allison's mother Elizabeth and her siblings.

7:01

Many of her cousins also lived in the same building at 41 west 112th street.

7:07

Christopher was known for being very attached to his family.

7:10

He loved his mother dearly.

7:12

He was always so affectionate with them, especially his mom.

7:16

And whenever Alison would come in the room Christopher's face would just light up with happiness.

7:19

He loved to be outside, going to play at the playground at the Martin Luther king towers community was one of his favorite things to do now, Christopher and his family lived in the same building as another little boy named Shane Walker.

7:32

And before August of 1989, the two families had actually never really crossed paths.

7:38

So Shane Anthony Walker was born on December 7th, 1987, and also lived in Harlem with his mother Rosa Lee Glover or Rosa for short, she was a 35 year old cook at Columbia university.

7:50

And Shane was 19 months old at the time of August, 1989.

7:55

Now Rosa didn't think that she would be able to have kids.

7:59

So she was just overjoyed when she became pregnant with Shane, she called him her special boy Shane's father was a 39 year old construction worker named James Walker.

8:09

And he didn't live with Roseanne Shane, but every Thursday he would drop by Rose's house to give her money for their son and spend some time with him.

8:15

Overall, Shane was a really happy child who always had a smile on his face.

8:20

He loved monkeys and he also had a bunch of stuffed Teddy bears.

8:24

And in fact, while he was growing up, his family briefly had a pet chimpanzee named James and Shane loved to sit by James his cage and feed him bananas.

8:33

Shane was also very attached to his mom and didn't want to go anywhere without her be separated from her.

8:39

At any time, he was actually terrified of strangers.

8:42

And if strangers ever approached him, he would yell and scream out for her and fear.

8:46

Shane also didn't like walking much and he liked to be carried by his mother instead.

8:50

So Rosa carried him everywhere.

8:52

And when he didn't want to walk, he would cry and tug at his mom until she would pick him up.

8:57

And like we said earlier, even though both of them lived in the same towers, Alison and Rosa had never met oddly enough, Rose's niece and Alison sister had been friends in the past, but they had some type of falling out and were no longer friends at that point.

9:11

But both families lived in the eighth tower, which was usually just referred to as tower 41 street address 41 west hundred 12th street.

9:19

The Martin Luther king Jr. Towers do play a really important role in this case, in these cases.

9:25

So it's important to understand this place in the time that these boys lived in, in order to fully understand their story.

9:32

So like we said, the Martin Luther king Jr towers are a housing project.

9:35

They're located in New York city in the central Harlem neighborhood.

9:38

The project was initially named the Stephen Foster towers and its construction was completed in 1954, but the towers were renamed in honor of Dr.

9:47

Martin Luther king Jr.

9:48

After he was assassinated in 1968, this project is made up of 10 buildings that hold a total of 1,373 apartments in each building has about 14 floors.

9:59

Central Harlem was not a very safe area in 1989.

10:02

The crime rates were very high, but residents living in the city's public housing projects generally were safer than those that didn't, but still people living in the towers did have to deal with criminal activity.

10:14

The residents who lived in this housing project usually didn't know each other very well.

10:18

I mean, there's a ton of people in each building.

10:21

There's hundreds and hundreds of people that live in it.

10:23

And this lack of community togetherness was a problem that low-income communities often faced.

10:28

And it tended to make crime harder to prevent without strong community bonds residents are more likely to focus on their own personal safety and less likely to look out for each other.

10:39

They're also less likely to try and prevent neighborhood crime by calling the police or traveling in groups.

10:44

Also just in general, the 1980s were not the best time for New York city as a whole.

10:49

The city was still recovering from the economic struggles of the seventies and the effects of the crack cocaine epidemic made the recovery even harder.

10:57

The policies of policing in this time had and continue to have a disastrous effect on inner city communities.

11:03

Thanks to policy started by the government's war on drugs, mass incarceration.

11:07

As we know it today was in full swing in 1989.

11:11

And the number of people in prison for nonviolent drug offenses began to explode a disproportionate number of those who were arrested were working class people of color, the lack of community togetherness mixed with the obvious and understandable distrust of the N Y P D in 1989, often stopped a lot of crime prevention.

11:31

And Rosa remembered that at the time violence and drug related crime were widespread in New York.

11:37

And especially in central Harlem, she said there were a lot of junkies in the neighborhood and she used that term and she even saw people running around the streets, naked, still the towers were full of people trying their best to live their lives and raise their children.

11:51

Many of these parents like to enjoy some time outside with their kids at the towers park, which had a big playground for all the kids who lived in the towers to run around and play on.

12:00

This was a place that Christopher often loved to play at.

12:04

So the towers park was located at 113th street and Lennox avenue, which was on the outer edge of the project.

12:10

It was a classic playground with a play set that had slides and monkey bars, a swing set, basketball courts, spray showers, and benches.

12:18

The playground was surrounded by eight foot tall chain link fences and had multiple entrances.

12:23

And most of the entryways could be accessed from the towers property, which surrounded the park.

12:29

Another entrance was accessible from Lenox avenue, the busy street that bordered the park to the west.

12:35

There was a hole in the fence that kids often use to come in and out.

12:39

You haven't been to New York city in a long, long time rights.

12:43

No, I was like five. I don't even really remember anything.

12:47

So I went to New York city when I was, I believe it going into my senior year of high school and starting to date at that point.

12:55

And that was the first time I'd ever been actually have family that's has lived up in Manhattan for many, many years.

13:01

So I went up to visit them. And this was kind of my first time visiting this area actually went through Harlem and some of these other areas in New York city.

13:09

And just going through this case, I was just like vividly taking me back to all these different types of buildings.

13:16

Like my, my family actually lives in a neighborhood or in an apartment building complex much like this in Manhattan where it's the same similar layout.

13:27

They kind of lay it out very similar for all of them.

13:29

Cause there's not a lot of space. Right, right. There's not big open spaces for parks.

13:33

Like we have here in Colorado or other states, obviously their central park.

13:37

But other than that, it's a lot of like playgrounds, just kind of in the middle of these tall, tall apartment buildings.

13:44

It's really kind of, if you've never been in New York city and you don't, you don't live within a large city.

13:50

And like, I didn't, I was living in the country.

13:52

So I went there. I was like, oh my God, this is crazy because it's just like, you look up and it's just towering, huge buildings.

13:59

Even these apartment buildings are super, super tall and they're all around you.

14:03

And you kind of, there's kind of this feeling of being enclosed a little bit like, and just kind of for me claustrophobic, but yeah, but there was tons, there's tons of people living in small areas of land, which I think was kind of the most astounding thing to me is that people, a lot of people like living this way and just thrive in this environment.

14:22

But for me, I was like, whoa, this is Lots

14:24

of People. Yeah. But it also does make it harder to kind of keep track of who's doing what versus you go to the parks like around us.

14:32

And there's not as many, there's just not as many people there.

14:36

Most of the, And it's hard. Cause you do think, you know, with all those buildings, there's so many people probably looking out over the park, isn't there a lot of people to see Something

14:46

happen. Yeah.

14:47

That's really not how it Works.

14:49

It's, it's one of those things where you think with a lot of people being around that people would notice stuff, but in New York, everybody lives in their own little bubble.

14:57

It seems like, like even on the streets, like people are just, it's not like, everybody's like, hi, how's it going?

15:02

Hey, you know, everybody's kind of head down and kind of on their own mission and they're not really like looking around as much.

15:08

And that was just my experience. But yeah, it just kind of reminded me of, you know, where this all unfolds.

15:14

But before we get into the actual disappearance, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back building

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19:04

So let's get into Christopher's disappearance.

19:07

It occurred on the evening of May 18th, 1989.

19:12

That day, Alison took Christopher and Lavonne to play at the playground.

19:15

This is something they normally did.

19:17

They were joined by Allison's mother Elizabeth and his aunt Carolyn and his seven-year-old cousin as well, Elton and also some other members of their family.

19:26

It was a hot summer day and the park was very crowded.

19:29

But even though it was really crowded, there were about five adults watching the kids.

19:33

Christopher was having a blast playing at the playground that day.

19:36

His favorite thing to do there was play on the slides, but he was a little too small to use the big slide by himself.

19:41

So his mother went down it with him a couple of times.

19:44

And at one point, Christopher was playing with a 10 year old girl and a five-year-old boy that were also playing at the playground.

19:50

Christopher was having a great time and nothing seemed out of the ordinary.

19:54

On a typical day at the park, their family would let the kids play while an adult in the group would run to the corner store and buy some snacks.

20:01

So around 6:30 PM, Alison decided to go to the store and grab some food and pick out a bucket of crabs from a street vendor on a hundred 18th street, she didn't have Christopher stroller with her.

20:12

So she had him stay at the park and asked her family to watch him while she was out.

20:16

Alison gave her son a hug and a kiss and told them that she would be right back.

20:21

He looked up at her and said, I love you, mommy.

20:24

And then she left for the store.

20:26

Allison's mother Elizabeth had been watching Elton and Christopher play with a red ball by the bathrooms right before Alison came back with the food.

20:34

Now, what was a bit strange is Alison didn't bring a red ball to the park for her son and nobody else had brought one for the kids to play with that day.

20:41

So right away, they were confused about how the kids got ahold of this ball around 7:00 PM.

20:47

Alison came back to the playground, but when she did, she didn't see her son.

20:51

She immediately asked her mother where Christopher was and Elizabeth said that he was somewhere close by.

20:57

Alison couldn't immediately find him.

20:59

So she started to look around the park.

21:01

Imagine that feeling of panic setting like terrible.

21:04

I can only imagine we don't have kids yet, but when I do, like, I just, you know, I'm sure you've experienced at some point, whether it's a pet or some, or just anything in life where like your stomach drops and just you, you are automatically on the verge of a total full-out panic attack.

21:19

I mean, you guys have experienced panic attacks, but like I've never experienced a full blown panic attack, but I've gotten pretty close before.

21:25

And that's like one of the scariest things, especially like, oh my God, where did it?

21:29

Where did that person or animal go?

21:31

It's just When you lose an animal for a second, it's horrible.

21:36

Because then you're like, oh my God, where do I even start?

21:38

Like, where do I start? What do I do? What's the best the fuck do I do well, because your time becomes of the essence.

21:44

So you really have to think quickly and figure out what is the best.

21:47

How do I use this time? Yeah.

21:49

It's so it's so scary. I can't imagine how it would be with a child.

21:52

I truly cannot imagine what that would be like.

21:55

I know. So Elizabeth had actually been talking to a friend for a few minutes before she noticed that Christopher was gone.

22:01

Elizabeth ended up being the last adult family member that saw Christopher.

22:06

Another witness had seen him playing with those two kids, the 10 year old girl and a five-year-old boy in the moments before he disappeared.

22:13

Alison spotted Carolyn who's Christopher's aunt and asked her if she knew where Christopher was.

22:18

Carolyn told her that she had just seen him a second ago.

22:22

All the other kids were still accounted for, but nobody knew where Christopher was.

22:27

It seemed like he was there one minute and just gone the next.

22:31

And of course, as the minute started to pass by with no sign of Christopher, an overwhelming feeling of anxiety washed over Alison she and her family immediately began searching all over the playground, but nobody could find her son.

22:44

The family was now panicking and running around yelling Christopher's name, but there was still no sign of him anywhere after they realized that he was not in the park.

22:54

Alison frantically called the police.

22:57

Officer's quickly arrived on the scene and they began their own search.

23:00

They asked people on the street and nearby the playground.

23:03

If they had seen Christopher or had, you know, noticed anything that was out of the ordinary.

23:08

Multiple officers began to canvas and search the towers they knocked on residents' doors, offered them reward money.

23:14

For any information, these apartments were completely searched for any sign of Christopher or any signs that there had been a struggle.

23:21

However, the apartment was difficult for the police to search because of the sheer size of these buildings and the large number of people that lived in them soon after police also decided to dispatch helicopters to the search area.

23:33

And the search area was expanded to 24 blocks, which is a Area

23:37

of land to, to serve, especially with this many people in it.

23:41

Yes, investigators were really worried that Christopher May have wandered off to Harlem mirror, which is the nearby lake in central park.

23:48

And it wasn't long before they brought scuba divers out to search the lake and see if maybe he had fallen in, but they found nothing.

23:55

Alison gave police some of Christopher's clothing items, so that search dogs could track his scent.

24:00

And the search dogs did pick up his scent at the playground and followed at south down Lenox avenue before the central ended at a hundred and 10th street, hours and hours started to pass with no sign of Christopher anywhere.

24:13

Their family was absolutely beside themselves with worry.

24:17

Eventually the day turned to night and night turned today again, but Christopher did not turn up.

24:23

So the day after Christopher disappeared, his cousin Elton actually ended up spotting him while he was at school.

24:30

The school's right across the street from the towers on 112th street, Elton was playing on the school yard that afternoon.

24:36

When he saw Christopher walking with a man outside of the school on a hundred and 11th street, he said that Christopher was wearing the same clothes he wore to the park the day before.

24:46

And AltEd actually ran inside to tell his principal and the school ended up calling the police about the sighting.

24:52

Elton described the suspect as a thin six foot tall black man with dreadlocks and a mustache who looked to be between 25 and 30 years old police dog searched a hundred 11th street, but they couldn't pick up Christopher scent.

25:04

Unfortunately, the siding did not lead to Christopher being found.

25:08

The police continued investigating his disappearance and they classified his case as a non-family abduction, which is just a kidnapping by a stranger.

25:17

After the disappearance Christopher's father Milton actually flew up to New York city from his home in Florida to meet with investigators.

25:24

He was not in New York at the time his son disappeared and police were able to clear him of any involvement in the case fairly quickly.

25:32

And as word of Christopher's disappearance got around, rumor started to form and some of them were accusing Alison of really horrible things.

25:39

They spread rumors that Alison was buying crack when her son disappeared or that drug dealer stole him to pay off a drug debt.

25:46

Some people even accused her of selling her son for drug money.

25:50

Alison has admitted that she was addicted to crack cocaine in the past, but when Christopher went missing, she had already been in recovery for years.

25:57

Alison carried a lot of shame and guilt about her past though, but she has insisted that her addiction did not interfere with being a loving mother to her children.

26:06

She had an out anyone money either, and she firmly stated that she would never do anything to hurt her children.

26:12

Lavonne and Christopher were the most important people in her life.

26:14

And they were her number one priority.

26:17

Alison and her family ended up taking polygraphs, which Alison said she passed.

26:21

However police said the results were inconclusive, but we always know that polygraph tests are not a hundred percent accurate by any means, but weeks turned into months.

26:30

And the family waited for the news that Christopher had been found, but it never came less than three months later.

26:36

The tragic events of May 18th would repeat themselves on that very same playground.

26:42

August 10th, 1989 was a hot summer day in New York.

26:46

And Rosa had two days off of work that evening.

26:49

She decided to take Shane out for a little bit of fresh air and some play time at the towers playground.

26:55

She went with her son to a corner store to buy Shane some chips to snack on and the, to walk to the park.

27:01

Rosa had no idea that Christopher Dansby had gone missing from that same park.

27:05

Just three months earlier, if she had known what had happened on May 18th, she would have never taken her son to that park.

27:11

Again, it was a crowded evening at the playground and many parents had just gotten off of work and wanted to take their kids out to blow off some steam.

27:19

Shane was wearing a blue in my t-shirt light blue pants and white sneakers.

27:25

His hair is braided back into ponytails sometime before 5:00 PM.

27:29

Rosa was sitting on a park bench, eating strawberry ice cream and watching her son play.

27:34

And not long after they arrived, two kids approached her a ten-year-old girl and her five-year-old brother.

27:41

They asked Rosa if Shane was allowed to play with them and Rosa thought their requests was weird at first because the kids looked a lot older than Shane.

27:48

She didn't think that they'd have fun playing with a kid who is so young and that could barely talk.

27:54

So she tried to shoo them away, but still these kids insisted that they wanted to play with Shane.

28:00

And she asked them if they really wanted to play with her son, even though he was so much younger than them and the kids replied and said they didn't mind.

28:07

So Rosa reluctantly agreed to let Shane play with them.

28:11

And this was the first time that she'd ever let other kids play with Shane.

28:15

While Rosa was watching the children play a man with a broken arm, sat down next to her and struck up a conversation.

28:22

He spoke with her about crime in the area, and he said that he worried things weren't safe for the kids anymore.

28:28

He mentioned the kidnapping of a child from the park that happened months earlier and told Rosa that bad things happen to kids.

28:34

Nowadays, the man then started pointing out some scars he had on his body and Rosa turned her head to see the scars.

28:40

While the man explained that he had gotten them from getting into fights.

28:44

She only had her eyes off of the children for a few moments, but when she turned her head again, she saw that the kids were gone immediately.

28:53

She got up and started to look around the park for Shane.

28:56

And after about three minutes of searching, Rosa spotted, the two kids Shane had been playing with.

29:01

They walked out of a hole in the fence and into the park.

29:05

She came up to them and ask them where her son was.

29:07

And the kids told her that they had left him at the playground.

29:10

At that point, Rosa started to panic and she began running all over the park, screaming Shane's name over and over again.

29:17

Other visitors obviously notice Rosa frantically searching and they volunteered to help her look for her son.

29:22

But nobody at the playground could find Shane Rosa then called the police.

29:27

And they quickly arrived at the park to start searching for him.

29:30

Just like the search for Christopher police immediately canvas the towers and questioned possible witnesses.

29:36

They thoroughly searched the grounds, checking every building's dumpsters, garbage chutes rooftops, elevator shafts, locked rooms and basements, but they couldn't find Shane.

29:47

Eventually the day ended and Rosa had to return home without her son, her only son, while police continued their investigation to aid in the search.

29:56

And YPD ended up putting a van outside of Rose's building to use as the 24 hour command post for the investigation and in the van police examined maps and evidence.

30:06

They took phone calls as their search area continued to grow.

30:10

After speaking with several witnesses, police stated that they were seeking out an unidentified man for questioning the police described the suspect as an African American, 19 to 24 years old, five foot, eight inches tall wearing a yellow shirt and acid washed jeans.

30:25

And one interesting thing that they did in this case was actually get a police van equipped with loudspeakers, like giant kind of bull horn speakers.

30:34

And they would just drive up and down the neighborhood, calling out for information, giving descriptions of Shane and the suspect, asking anyone with information to come forward.

30:44

And Christopher's mom, Alison actually first found out about Shane's disappearance from these announcements.

30:50

Police officers came to Rose's house every day to investigate, and they even wiretapped her phone lines.

30:55

And eventually the police did find the two kids that, you know, Shane was playing with at the time that he disappeared and they questioned both of them extensively and even questioned their parents as well.

31:06

And the kids told police that they were playing with Shane.

31:08

And when they turned around for just a moment, he disappeared, both kids stated that they didn't see anyone take Shane.

31:14

And they had no idea where he went.

31:17

And after these interviews, the police cleared the kids of any involvement in Shane's disappearance, as well as the kids' parents who were also questioned.

31:24

Police also found and interviewed the man who talked to Rosa that day in the park.

31:29

And they also cleared him of any involvement.

31:32

Then a few days later, Rosa ended up getting a really weird phone call and it was very upsetting.

31:37

And this call came from a total stranger.

31:40

The caller told her that Shane was buried in a vacant crack house that was falling apart and had people squatting in it.

31:47

This house was on a hundred and 13th street and Lennox avenue.

31:51

The date of this is not known, but at some point the police ended up demolishing the entire house to look for Shane.

31:57

And unfortunately they never found anything under the house or even found out who made the call in the first place.

32:03

At one point Shane's father ended up taking a polygraph test and he said he passed.

32:08

However, police reported that the results were inconclusive, just like they had done when Christopher's dad had took the polygraph test.

32:16

So obviously one of the things that makes this case, so particularly strange is the fact that Shane's his appearance was almost identical to what happened to Christopher only few months earlier at first investigators did not believe the two cases had anything to do with each other.

32:31

Eventually though, they started to realize that the two cases were too similar, not to be related and at a press conference on August 14th, 1989, only four days after Shane went missing.

32:41

It was announced that investigators believed Shane and Christopher's cases were most likely linked.

32:47

So before we get more into the investigation, we're going to take another quick break.

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37:32

The police eventually announced that they're investigating both Shane and Christopher's cases as kidnappings by strangers.

37:38

And they also offered a $30,000 reward for any information that could help find the boys.

37:44

And according to investigators, it's highly unusual for a toddler to go missing without a trace and never be seen.

37:50

Again. Investigators also said that they were seeking to men for questioning, and the only similarity between the two men was the fact that they both had dreadlocked hair.

37:58

The similarities between the cases were striking, the two boys were both African-American similar in age and lived in the same building at the king towers.

38:06

Also the two boys both disappeared from the same area of the same playground.

38:10

And one of the most bizarre similarities of all was that both disappeared on hot crowded Thursday evenings.

38:17

At similar times, Christopher went missing at 7:00 PM and Shane went missing at 5:00 PM, but both on Thursday, which is very odd.

38:25

And also both of the boys played with two kids, a 10 year old girl and a five-year-old boy, right before they disappeared.

38:32

Five days after Shane went missing deputy chief, Ronald Fenrick confirmed at a press conference at the kids who played with Christopher and the kids who played with Shane were actually the same two kids.

38:44

This is what Rosa believed to be the most suspicious similarity.

38:47

This is something interesting to note that while we were watching the unsolved mysteries episode, there was actually somebody on the show that claimed that the kids were not the same.

38:55

She said that they looked through police reports while researching the episode and saw no mention of this detail.

39:01

But again, this is coming straight from a deputy at this 1989 press conference.

39:05

So it's possible that the reports just got messed up.

39:08

I mean, there's definitely could have been a mistake there again.

39:12

Police insisted that they cleared both kids after questioning them and their parents extensively and thoroughly investigators also reported that they believed Christopher and Shane's abductors had some relation to each other, either.

39:24

They were both co-conspirators in the kidnappings or they're both parts of a larger conspiracy to kidnap children for a specific purpose and both Christopher and Shane's mom said that their kids would not have gone anywhere with a stranger unless they were lured away.

39:39

At first Shane's mom, Rosa strongly believes that an abductor coach, the two kids who played with Shane, she believes that after the kids, Lord Shane away from her, the abductor grabbed him and ran off Christopher's mom.

39:51

Alison thinks that someone used the mysterious red ball that Christopher was playing with in order to pull him away from the family, because nobody in the family brought the ball and the police never recovered it.

40:02

So Alison believes Christopher's abductor.

40:04

Lord him away with it before kidnapping him, Lenox avenue was a busy street with lots of cars coming and going.

40:11

So an abductor could have quickly grabbed Christopher or Shane and thrown them in a car without anyone noticing and been gone.

40:18

Both parents think that the abductors put a hand over their children's mouths in order to muffled they're crying.

40:22

Because again, they probably would have cried if they had just been picked up by a stranger in a crowded park full of kids.

40:28

And parents is probably wouldn't have raised a lot of suspicion, toddlers, crime, public, and parents usually try to quiet them or move them somewhere else.

40:35

So they don't disturb other people.

40:37

But as time went on, please continue to investigate any leads they received.

40:42

And because both the boys seemingly just disappeared out of thin air police had to rely more on tips and leads and solid evidence in the 1980s, there weren't cameras on every street corner or outside of every store like there are now.

40:53

So police didn't have any useful photos or video evidence from the days of boys disappeared, which makes things way, way harder.

41:01

Investigators initially worked off the assumption that pedophiles or serial killers kidnapped the boys.

41:07

They questioned hundreds of local child molesters and sex offenders regarding the cases.

41:11

But none of these leads panned out.

41:13

What was also interesting to the police was that neither of the families were ever contacted by someone who wanted money or a ransom.

41:20

So kidnapping for ransom was ultimately ruled out.

41:24

At one point, there is a lead when a local female who was addicted to crack cocaine had a child that died.

41:29

And this was looked into further to see if there's any sort of connection to Christopher and Shane, but that lead ended up going cold as well.

41:36

By this point, Rosa was absolutely desperate for answers.

41:39

She was completely heartbroken that her son was still missing and that she had no answers as to what had happened to him or where he had gone.

41:46

Rosa was willing to try anything at this point in order to find her son.

41:49

And at one point she went on a daytime talk show called Geraldo to speak to a psychic.

41:55

And the psychic told Rosa that a Hispanic man in a station wagon, kidnapped Shane and sold him to a rich family in Philadelphia.

42:03

And according to the psychic, Shane was very loved by this family.

42:07

And she told Rosa that he was learning to play the piano.

42:11

What, like, how is that going to help her cope With

42:16

this? I Know based off of the psychics abilities, apparently Because

42:21

I mean, psychics literally are used by law enforcement and the FBI in multiple cases.

42:28

And sometimes they're right. So it's like, I understand as a family wanting to hear anything possible and trying to clutch to any belief or hope, but it's just like, where do you go with that information?

42:42

What do you do?

42:43

And it can just make things worse.

42:46

I think in some cases, My thing was psychics is that there's no way to measure ability, right?

42:50

This is like pure. I mean, anybody could be a psychic that's the hardest part is like, obviously you can prove ability to some extent.

42:57

Yeah. And some psychics are able to prove that they have this profound ability, but it's also very, you know, it's not like I'm sure police departments don't have like some way to measure the psychics that they use.

43:09

They probably just go off of It's just on success.

43:12

Yeah. And credit like past credibility.

43:15

Yeah. And how do you know even like, if a psychic is going to get it right one time and then not write another, I mean, there's, what's the margin for error there.

43:22

I mean it's, And it's like, obviously this was a TV show it's for entertainment, Geraldo, whatever that, Well,

43:29

that's a, drawled over a Riviera, I believe is his last name.

43:32

Who's on Fox news.

43:34

I don't know if he has any more, but he was a daytime talk show host back, back In

43:38

the day. Okay. Well, yeah.

43:41

I don't, I don't Know. Could have just been for ratings.

43:44

Yeah. It's, it's hard when that stuff is like on, in public too.

43:48

Yeah. You have to question in a little bit. Right. Well,

43:50

and what really sucks is the fact that all she said was that it was a rich family in Philadelphia.

43:55

So it's like, what are you going to do?

43:57

Go find Rich family.

43:59

Right. Right. Exactly. It's like So

44:02

broad. It just doesn't provide any sort of direct path.

44:06

It's just like a, it's just giving her an idea to think about, Well,

44:12

it's not like, you know, even the psychics that do work with the FBI, it's not like they give them, oh, go to this address.

44:18

And here it is, you know, it's normally like someone will be found near water or on this date or, You

44:26

know, name, address, phone number, here you go.

44:29

Only Vague. And it's never something that really points you in the right direction.

44:34

Right. I don't know. I don't know. I know people have varying opinions on psychics using true crime.

44:40

Curious on your, What

44:42

was also going on in the late eighties and nineties though, was the satanic panic frenzy, which was in full swing.

44:48

And a lot of Americans believed that Colts were abusing children as parts of a satanic ritual.

44:53

And detectives got thousands of reports of satanic ritual abuse taking place during the time that the two boys were missing.

45:00

And so they thought it was a possibility that the boys could be victims to, you know, some group that was conducting some type of ritual with them specifically, there was a talk of a child sacrifice Colt that kidnapped the boys and that they may no longer be in the United States.

45:15

And detectives ended up traveling to various places, including Puerto Rico, St.

45:19

Croix and St.

45:21

Thomas. However, when investigators visited the islands, they found out these rumors were not supported by any evidence whatsoever.

45:27

And despite there being no real leads, tips still poured in.

45:31

And by 1991, police had investigated over 500 leads that they received from all 50 us states and parts of Canada.

45:38

So it's just like all over the place could be, could be anywhere in January of 1991.

45:43

And child's body matching Christopher size and age was discovered in a wooded area, 30 miles outside of Atlantic city, New Jersey.

45:50

And it was first thought that maybe this child was Christopher.

45:53

However, after further investigating the child's footprints, Christopher was ruled out as a match.

45:58

And as the decades passed and tips and leads dried up, the cases went to cold.

46:04

And to this day, Christopher Dansby and Shane Walker have never been found.

46:10

So Christopher's father Milton ended up moving from Miami to Harlem and ended up getting custody of Christopher's older brother Lavonne.

46:17

And the whole experience was very traumatizing for Lavonne.

46:20

As you can imagine, he slept in the bunk beds that he and his brother shared after he was gone.

46:26

And it was just hard for him every night to not have his little brother there with him or by his side throughout the day.

46:32

And he had to fight off his nightmares alone.

46:34

In 1991, five-year-old Lavonne made a heartbreaking plea for Christopher's return.

46:39

He told a reporter that if someone has him, if they see that he's choo choo, they can bring him to my house with my name on him, just heartbreaking.

46:49

Shane's mother Rosa was also in a state of absolute despair losing her only child.

46:55

Her sister Barbara became so concerned about Rose's mental health that she personally kept her on suicide watch until she could have metal bars installed in Rose's windows, in her apartment, despite her extreme depression over Shane being gone.

47:09

Rosa really wanted to be a mother again, if you tried to have another child after Shane disappeared, but she wasn't able to conceive.

47:15

And in 1991, she unsuccessfully tried to adopt a child and to make matters even worse.

47:21

She also battled breast cancer twice in 1997, investigators became suspicious after learning that Rosa was in legal battle with an insurance company, they discovered that she had bought a life insurance policy for Shane and the days before he disappeared, seven weeks after he vanished, she attempted to collect the policies proceeds, but the insurance company turned her down because there was no death certificate for Shane Rosa told investigators that she purchased the policy before the recent trip to Disney world, because she was worried that their flight to Orlando would crash while the insurance policy seemed questionable.

47:55

The investigators again, cleared Rosa of any involvement in her son's disappearance.

47:59

Rosa claims that she sometimes still sees Shane in her dreams.

48:03

She hears him calling out mommy, mommy, please confine me.

48:08

I've truly cannot even picture what that would be like having to deal with that every night and every year she decorates her house for Christmas and she puts up a Christmas tree with ornaments made of Shane's pictures.

48:21

Her house is also filled with framed photos and age progressions of Shane as well.

48:26

Alison is now a grandmother and she works in health care at Rikers island.

48:30

She's described her son's disappearance as a nightmare that she can't wake up from all she's battled with serious depression.

48:36

She said that she has stayed strong for Lavonne and her grandchildren.

48:40

And although Alison no longer lives in the king towers, Allison's mother still resides there to this day.

48:46

And every year king towers residents hold a family day, which is a community event in honor of Christopher and Shane residents gathered at the park for performances from resident wrap groups, a basketball tournament, prayer readings, and dance.

49:00

So really no closure for their family.

49:03

And it's something that they have carried all of this time, the pain and anguish, the curiosity, wondering what happened, wondering where they went.

49:13

You know, it's just an, have both of these families go through something so similar, at least they could connect with each other, but it's just so shocking and clear that these cases are probably connected.

49:25

Yeah. I mean, the police strongly believed that they are.

49:27

And I mean, just to have to lay in bed at night and run through all the theories, the one F so what may have happened to your child has gotta be the absolute worse torture, really.

49:37

I mean, it's just, couldn't even imagine what that would be like.

49:40

And I mean, the theories. Yeah, exactly.

49:43

I mean, the theories of where the boys might be today, all center around the different motives that their abductors might've had, you know, in the first place to kidnap them.

49:52

But Rosa believes that the two kids who played with Shane before he vanished, had something to do with his disappearance.

49:58

And I agree, I think clearly there was a distraction put in place in order to get their child away from, you know, their parents in order to take them somewhere, but make it look innocent.

50:12

Like they're just playing. Cause it's very, I mean, a ten-year-old I

50:15

know with A two year old, like what It

50:21

is odd, the way they described it is odd.

50:24

I mean the whole, how it played out, but it's kind of hard to wrap your mind around kids being involved in a crime or participating and, you know, especially the fact that they talk to the parents and seem to rule that out.

50:37

I mean, that's True.

50:39

But the one thing is they were very, very pushy about being able to find That's

50:45

that's what I'm saying. It's like, they didn't give up, they were persistent and till they got what they wanted, ultimately As

50:51

odd, I mean, I definitely think it's odd.

50:54

And Then they just like all of a sudden, all of a sudden the kid disappears and then they all of a sudden show back up into the, into the playground, like, oh yeah, we have no idea where he went it's like, wait a minute, like, come on.

51:05

Like you're old enough that you should be able to least It's

51:07

hard, especially with two kids, because again, they interviewed them again.

51:10

You can question the interviewing itself, but it's, it's hard for kids to get in there and lie and keep their facts straight and like really pull something like that off.

51:19

Especially two of them really young.

51:21

I mean, I mean, some people will, part of this one particular theory, you know, that they were brought into some type of pedophile ring and that perhaps these two children were groomed from a very young age and kind of brainwashed and very well coached in order to sort of make this elaborate operation happen.

51:40

I mean, obviously that seems unlikely, but is it impossible?

51:44

No. And then it does happen. It totally does happen.

51:47

So I, I understand why Rosa believes they could have involvement and they definitely, Yeah.

51:52

And I, I honestly do question the investigative ability of the police in this case, for sure.

51:58

Both cases. Yeah. Back then. It was just really crazy.

52:02

Yeah. It's like how, you know, we don't have interrogation footage, we don't have any sort of transcripts really to look at to actually see how, you know, cause it could have just brought in the parents, like, do you guys have anything to do with it?

52:13

No. And then that was the extent of the, you know, interrogation or questioning.

52:17

I mean, oftentimes that's what happens is police aren't actually like actively seeking the answers they need.

52:23

And it's more so formality to rural people interact.

52:27

I wonder if the case file or how much of the case file has been shared with Rosa and if she seen the transcripts from that, any of it?

52:34

Probably not, but it's interesting that she still has that belief because maybe there was something in Interrogation

52:42

it's just really stuck out to her And

52:44

I, I can see why it's Weird.

52:47

This is odd. Yeah. And then the red ball too.

52:50

I Wonder with Christopher.

52:52

Yeah. Yeah. It seemed like it was very calculated.

52:56

Very well planned out. So

52:58

scary. So after the two disappearances rumors went around in Harlem that the boys were stolen by members of a crime ring that supposedly kidnapped children and then sold them on the black market.

53:08

And please begin to investigate this theory after they found a possible connection between the boys cases and another infant abduction that happened the same year.

53:16

And this was the case of Andre Bryant.

53:19

Andre Bryant was a one month old baby living in Brooklyn, New York with his mother, Monique Rivera and on March 28th, 1989, Monique and her son's route for a walk around Brooklyn.

53:29

When a burgundy sedan pulled up to her, two women got all the car and started a chat with Monique about her children.

53:35

And they asked to hold baby Andre and eventually convinced her to go shopping with them.

53:40

After they went shopping, the two women dropped Monique off at her apartment and she told her husband that she made plans to go shopping with them again the next day and on March 29th, 1989, Monique was waiting for the women to pick her up when they called her from a payphone and they asked if she was bringing baby Andre, but she told them that her sister was babysitting the kids at Monique's apartment.

54:00

The women repeatedly insisted that she needed to bring baby Andre on the shopping trip.

54:05

And eventually she agreed. And Monique and Andre got into their car at 2:00 PM.

54:10

The next day police found Monique's body beaten and strangled in a wooded area of the Bronx.

54:15

She had bruises and broken nails, which told investigators that she had fought back against her attackers.

54:20

However, Andre has never been seen again.

54:23

And police never identified the two women who most likely kidnapped him.

54:27

And while detectives investigated Andre, Christopher and Shane's cases, they knows that all three disappearances had suspicious similarities.

54:36

All three kidnappings happen within the same five month time span.

54:39

All the victims were African-American infants living in New York and all three boys have never been seen or heard from again, which investigators continue to say.

54:48

That's very unusual for toddlers to go missing.

54:51

Law enforcement believed that Andre, Christopher and Shane may have all been kidnapped and sold by members of a black market, baby selling ring.

54:59

And this crime ring, supposedly abducted babies and toddlers and sold the children to new families.

55:05

I guess there are some families out there that look for other ways to adopt children versus the traditional means because it doesn't always work out or it's too expensive.

55:15

But at a 1989 press conference where a police told the press, the boy's cases were linked police captain Ronald Fenris told reporters that he believed they were either abducted by a black market baby selling ring or someone who couldn't adopt a child and some private adoption agencies did not think the baby selling theory was plausible officials from some local private adoption agencies claimed that adopting a black child in New York was quote unquote, not difficult.

55:42

The executive director of one agency said that a black market for white babies existed, but she didn't believe there is one for black babies.

55:50

Wow. Still it's important to remember that the adoption process is very difficult.

55:54

It's a very long process and it's very expensive.

55:57

Oftentimes there are strict regulations that disqualify many people from adopting children.

56:02

And if any member of the household has a record of emotional or physical health problems, substance abuse, or arrest, the chances at that family will be approved, dropped significantly.

56:12

Parents also have to prove that they have enough money to care for the child.

56:16

And they're required to let officials conduct a lengthy home study with a social worker.

56:21

The previous year to the boy's.

56:23

The N YPD actually busted a New York lawyer who ran an illegal private adoption agency that sold babies to desperate families.

56:31

And for almost two decades, the agency paid unmarried mothers looking to have their babies adopted, took the children after birth and sold them to the parents who offered the most money.

56:41

Literally auctioned off children.

56:43

Birth moms were even often intimidated into creating fake records and birth certificates for the child.

56:49

So the term black market babies usually refers to this type of illegal adoption process.

56:55

However, a detective who worked on the boys cases stated in 1990 that he believed they were kidnapped by two separate abductors who acted alone.

57:03

He thought that these were people who wanted to raise a child, but couldn't adopt her, have their own kids.

57:08

The detective argued that if there was actually some sort of black market baby selling operation in New York, police would have caught them by then, or at least had some kind of solid evidence that a group like this even existed.

57:20

Another detective also agreed. And he said, there is no credible evidence that pointed to the involvement of any black market baby ring, which kidnapped and sold children.

57:28

He added that would be really hard to find someone willing to kidnap a child and sell it for money.

57:34

So let's talk more about the theory that, you know, this couldn't have been some type of kidnapping by someone who wanted to adopt a child to raise as their own because you know, X, Y, and Z.

57:46

So obviously babies and toddlers are kind of the perfect age for these types of crimes because they won't remember anything.

57:53

They can't talk. And they adapt to new environments pretty quickly.

57:57

And obviously families that are looking to adopt may prefer kids that are younger because they want to experience raising a child from the beginning of their life.

58:05

The abduction as adoption theory really earned some more credibility in 2011, when a woman named Carlina white solved her own 23 year old kidnapping case, she found out that back in 1987, the woman who she thought was her mom actually had kidnapped her from my hospital in Harlem when she was just a baby actually did a full video on this.

58:27

If you want to check it out, it can be found on my channel, but it's a crazy story.

58:32

Her kidnapper basically was desperate to have a child of her own, but she had suffered multiple miscarriages and was just devastated over it.

58:40

So the thought of never being able to have children of her own really scared her and broke her heart.

58:44

So she plotted to steal a baby for herself right out of the hospital.

58:49

And this case gave Christopher and Shane's families a kind of renewed sense of hope that their sons could possibly reunite with them one day.

58:56

And both of the families believe that someone like Carlina White's kidnapper, who couldn't have kids could have stole their boys as well to start their own family.

59:04

Then in 2017, the Jacksonville Sheriff's department solved the kidnapping case.

59:08

That was bizarrely similar to Carlene because it was the case of Comea Mobley, a newborn who was stolen from a hospital maternity ward when she was just eight hours old, her abductor admitted to stealing her and raising her as her own for 18 years after she had also suffered a miscarriage.

59:28

After she talked with Kamaya's teenage mother, she believed that the baby would have a better life as her daughter.

59:34

Instead at the time she thought the kidnapping was the right thing to do.

59:39

So of course it's possible that the people who took Shane and Christopher justified their actions with the same kind of thought process, the abductor may have told themselves that they were doing the right thing, you know, saving a child, or maybe they believe that they deserve this child more than the parents.

59:55

Did. Investigators have pretty much abandoned the black market baby ring theory.

59:59

At this point, they think it's much more likely that the boys were kidnapped by lone individuals who wanted to raise them by themselves.

1:00:05

Rosa and Alison have both submitted samples of their DNA to a genetic database.

1:00:10

And they're hoping that their missing boys will submit a sample one day that matches theirs.

1:00:15

And I think that's very possible, honestly like with DNA tests and how that's gotten more and more popular over the years.

1:00:23

I mean, who knows? I mean, hopefully, I mean, hopefully it happens at some point, but there's also other scenarios that might've played out as well.

1:00:31

That, of course aren't quite as hopeful.

1:00:33

I mean, what do you, what do you think what's your gut feeling about this?

1:00:37

I don't know. I think it's, there's not enough information or any direction to really point in any, which way to know what, if you know what happened afterwards or what their motives were.

1:00:48

Obviously it's clear that it was an abduction. It was, it was clearly planned By

1:00:52

the same by potentially the same person or Most

1:00:57

likely. Yeah. I mean, same place.

1:00:59

It's just, it's a, both on a Thursday afternoon.

1:01:01

It's very odd. Yeah. That, that to me is the most eerie thing about the whole, the both cases is like, clearly I think that was like plans, you know, what are the chances that two separate people dude, on the exact same day, It

1:01:16

was like, oh, this works the first time.

1:01:20

Let me do this again.

1:01:22

But then that makes me think that it probably, wasn't just the thought of someone taking the kid to raise as their own because of the fact that yes, it's the same family you're saying kidnapped two kids.

1:01:31

Like that's so weird. They would probably get caught.

1:01:33

If two of the kids were kidnapped wouldn't you as a kid eventually be like, how did you get here?

1:01:39

Vice versa Raises the risk for sure.

1:01:41

But it still lends to that theory because if it was a ring and someone who was organizing it and then adopting the kids out, it's possible that the people adopting the children didn't even know.

1:01:54

I know the police seemed to think that's less likely, but yeah, I see, I see what you're saying.

1:02:00

If they're connecting, it seems like it wouldn't be like the same family or someone that just personally took them exactly the way that Carlina white was taken.

1:02:09

Exactly what I'm saying. I think there's a bigger picture of that because two kids were taken, there's got to, if it is related, there's gotta be some type of bigger organization that was, you know, mastermind behind all of this because it just seems too weird that, you know, some random mom or something that miscarried took two kids at the same place at the it's so risky to me.

1:02:29

And I do think they're related. Cause like, dude, how could they not be?

1:02:32

They talked the same little kids they were playing with right before they were at the same park.

1:02:37

They, you know, they were similar age, same day of the week.

1:02:41

Yeah. It's just the way it was executed.

1:02:43

So perfectly, no one saw anything. It was very quick.

1:02:46

It does seem professional.

1:02:49

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would like to think that they're still out there one day and it's possible that they were adopted by a family through some type of, you know, unknown sketch adoption or that they could be out there and being held.

1:03:04

Obviously it's wishful thinking to think that they're still out there, but it's, it's possible.

1:03:09

And if I were their family, I would hang on to every ounce of hope I could, especially seeing it happen for other families 18 years later, you know, although the boys at this point would be 34 and 33 today, the national organization for missing and exploited children has released age progressions.

1:03:26

That show what the boys might look like now.

1:03:29

And investigators are still optimistic that they could find the boys alive one day, their families have never given up hope and they pray every day that they can hold their beloved boys in their arms.

1:03:39

Once again, I would tell them, I

1:03:42

love him and I miss you.

1:03:46

I miss not being a part of your life, but so many years watching you grow up, go to school on your way home.

1:03:58

My gut feeling is that this was due to the economic times in New York city.

1:04:03

And just sort of the, you know, there was a level of lawlessness, I think, just overall in these areas.

1:04:12

And, and that was just a result of the time period and what was going on in the city.

1:04:17

And I think likely what happened was somebody decided that they could, they figured out they could make money this way and figured out there was, you know, a way to profit off of these children and, and running an illegal adoption agency.

1:04:33

That's, that's what I think. I don't think it's necessarily like a black market sort of thing.

1:04:38

I think it could have literally just been like this person went into it and these were the only two children that they kidnapped and then after they did, they just Sort

1:04:46

of, it sounds crazy, but there's, there's, it happens.

1:04:50

And there are people out there. I mean, with Carlina white, I mean, just the fact that that also happened in a similar, you know, Harlem at the same time period.

1:04:58

It's like clearly there were people that were looking for, you know, and that's not the only case.

1:05:04

There's other cases from this time period in area where, you know, people were looking for ways to adopt children and it just wasn't feasible.

1:05:13

I feel like they felt that there was less watch because the police were so focused on the drug problem at the time.

1:05:21

And so spread thin and distracted by that, that it was somewhat easier, especially because this wasn't a time where, you know, nowadays everyone has their phones out at a park filming their kids.

1:05:34

You know, when you're in a group like that, CCTV in a city, in New York, you know, you couldn't really pull something like that off without there being more of a trail, more evidence.

1:05:46

My thing too is like, I'm just thinking of how quickly this all went down to.

1:05:51

Like this was within seconds.

1:05:53

Like, it seems like a distraction was created for the, for the parents.

1:05:59

And then the child went with these two kids and they went to a spot where somebody could easily grab them through the fence or something and then be on Lenox avenue and into a car in a matter of seconds.

1:06:12

And they're gone. I agree with you. That's the way it seems.

1:06:15

It's really hard without the information from that interrogation, you know, not knowing about what that man said to them when he was sitting at the park bench with them, With

1:06:26

her, the Kids, the parents, yeah.

1:06:29

What was said, what information did they get?

1:06:31

What did they ask?

1:06:33

It's hard to kind of make a judgment on that.

1:06:36

They ruled them out for a reason. I'd like to hope, but I agree with you.

1:06:40

It seems like, I mean too many strange occurrences and it does really seem like a set-up plot.

1:06:48

Well, and like, I obviously don't believe this, but the police seem to think that the mothers might have been involved and based on their histories and their drug, you know, their previous addictions and things like that.

1:07:01

And then the life insurance policy that's that they were desperate for money.

1:07:06

And so they gave up their children.

1:07:08

No, no, no, no go. I think all of you guys should take time to watch this episode.

1:07:13

If you haven't already, it just really hits home, listening to there.

1:07:18

I mean please.

1:07:19

And just how much trauma this has caused them.

1:07:23

This destroyed their lives. I mean, they've never recovered from this and I don't know why anyone, I mean, it makes no sense.

1:07:31

That theory makes no sense to me.

1:07:33

Also, the fact that They went missing in a public park.

1:07:35

Like if you, as a parent, we're going to sell your kid, wouldn't you take them somewhere a lot less public.

1:07:41

Does that make sense? It doesn't make any sense.

1:07:44

No. And other family members would have had to be involved in it and there, and it would all have, yeah.

1:07:48

I don't know where the police are going with that.

1:07:50

And that's, that's what makes you question?

1:07:52

What is I was saying is like, how good was the investigation actually, if they were kind of going after the parents initially and I mean, I get it, you got to clear both parents, but like, it seems like they were trying to use that angle for awhile.

1:08:08

And my other thought too is just regarding, you know, a serial killer or something like that.

1:08:13

And, and just none of this, the way that this went down really seems to me like a serial killer and, you know, looking at serial killers that operated in New York city in that area, they were like, Arthur Shawcross was one of the serial killers at the time.

1:08:27

And he went for women and you don't really see too often serial killers going for young, young children, like two year olds.

1:08:36

I mean, that's very like there's the Atlanta child murders and the not killer did go after young children.

1:08:41

But yeah, but it's honestly like when you look at serial killers across the board, it is fairly rare to find a serial killer that goes for their victims are that young.

1:08:53

So to me, and also like if there was a serial killer, I feel like somebody would have noticed something that there was somebody out of the ordinary.

1:09:00

So to me, I'm thinking did, did the person that the abductor, the actual person that abducted the children, if it wasn't the two kids that like walked them straight to a vehicle who was that person and that person must've like blended in is what I'm trying to say.

1:09:17

Versus it being outside serial killer, coming into this area to try to Dress

1:09:22

like a serial killer. No, there probably, if it was any type of abductor, w when, no matter what their intentions were, they probably did try to blend in, look like someone who's just at the park or, And

1:09:34

again, this is such a busy area. I mean, there's so many people living in these apartment buildings, there's just so much going on constantly.

1:09:42

And people going this way, that way, that like, it'd be so easy to get lost in the crowd.

1:09:46

Right? Like you think a crowd would notice everything, but oftentimes you get lost in the crowd.

1:09:51

Yeah. And I can see how that would Happen.

1:09:53

And I think that's what happened. Just nobody saw who it was And

1:09:56

these two had their whole lives ahead of them.

1:09:59

And to think about the years that they missed out on is I think probably the hardest part for them.

1:10:05

They talked a lot about that.

1:10:07

Yeah. Just, just thinking, even if they are out there.

1:10:11

Yeah. How, how that would hurt to even to find that out, because then it's thinking about the time that you've lost and how I'm going to make that up.

1:10:18

And yeah. One of the mothers talked about how she just would love if, if one day they ever do return or one of them comes back to be able to just sit with them and talk, and she would just take a vacation and spend time together and just broke my heart.

1:10:32

I mean, thinking of all the time, that was just completely missed out on and for, with no explanation for why.

1:10:41

Yeah. I mean, just a normal day and your whole life changes like that completely Completely

1:10:46

changed. Well, I mean, all we can do is hold out hope.

1:10:48

And this is why it's so important to tell these cold case stories, because you just never know, you never know who watches.

1:10:54

You never know who's going to come across this And

1:10:56

age progression and think, wow, you know, you never know have information.

1:11:01

And yeah, of course we will have that all in artists' episode notes and description box, as far as Q to get information to Absolutely

1:11:12

old, go ahead and wrap up today's episode there.

1:11:14

Hopefully you found this episode, malware podcasts as intriguing and interesting as we did.

1:11:19

We'd appreciate it if you like and subscribe on YouTube and apple podcasts, but that is all, we'll be back next week with another episode, a Little

1:11:28

bit of a lighter episode. This one was pretty intense.

1:11:31

Yeah. It was definitely Maybe

1:11:33

have Some laughs. Yeah, that'd be great.

1:11:35

I have a few more laps around here.

1:11:39

Well, we hope you guys are having a great day out there. That is it for us.

1:11:41

Keep on taking your mind.

1:11:43

Hey. What's up everybody? Well, welcome back to Mile Hire podcast episode one eighty three. Today, we have a very interesting case to discuss today. It's an older case that definitely needs to be talked about. I don't think it's gotten nearly enough coverage. It did end up on an episode of unsolved mysteries on Netflix, which is a fantastic series. I really love the revamped version of it. Me too. So we wanted to talk about it because it was one that really stood out to us and kinda blew us away. So we will be getting into that. Also, you probably noticed our sign has bit the dust, sadly. on. Yeah. You know, it's just one thing after another here at the mile higher media, it seems like You know, it's just one thing after another here at the -- Really? -- small higher media. It seems like We're just going with it at this point, you know. Literally, Josh called Kinell and I of was, like, who you were saying? The house. He was sad news, and we're, like, what? He goes, the sun's he was, the sun's broken. We're, like, oh, fuck. Okay. Well, we'll get it fixed. Hang on. Anyways, back to our conversation what are we even supposed to do at this point now? So many things have happened. We actually were supposed to be in our new studio by this time, but we just had so many delays and shipping delays and things. Yeah. Yeah. It's kinda working with what we have. Eventually, it will be a really cool set. It's in progress. It's gonna be awesome. And then there's no other things. Yeah. We're gonna have to fix it, I Take it to the signed doc. Okay. Well, I mean, if you watch you obviously or watch all of our shows, you know that, like, this changes for each of the shows. So literally, I get on a stepladder and I have to there this sign this giant signs being hung by two chains, two chains. But anyway Okay. What? But anyway, I have to get on a little ladder every time we do a show and take it down. So it could have broken at any point in time, and this is a real neon sign, so it's got the glass tubes. So guess what happens is sometimes you get hairline fractures in in the tube -- Mhmm. -- in all of the gas because there's gas inside of the that's what's lighting up the glass escapes, and so it just kind of flicks on, flicks off. So it looks terrible. I mean, it looks like I mean, horrible for for a show, but That's it. It's a podcast. Right? It's to be listened to. True. Yeah. But hopefully, we'll get it fixed and we'll get it back up in the new studio. But fix her up. At least it's not smashed. When you said bad news, the sign broke, I thought you dropped it. Oh, So -- Well -- best case scenario, honestly. Yeah. think it's gonna be able to be fixed, luckily. But, yeah, it's just been one thing after another. And then a lot of you've been asking about planet sleep and sort of what happened with that. I guess -- Yeah. -- I never really even officially said really what happened with planet sleep. So nothing happened as far as, like, you know, something wrong with the show or anything like that. It's just It was going great. It was going great. I was really enjoying it, and think there's, like, eleven hour long episodes on there, but really just comes down to allocation of my time. And as you guys know, I mean, I I run both of our companies. I'm kind of the manager as well, so I have ten employees. And then also I record for mile higher lights out, and then was also doing Planet Sleep. So just my schedule is absolutely insane. I mean, it's still absolutely insane. But There ain't even more time in my hubs. Exactly. And just I mean, it was just I was getting I was feeling burnout happening, and I was also feeling, like, my performance on other shows, like, lights out in my house. We're we're slipping personally. So I was just, like, I need It's just too much for one human to handle. So But it was a cool project and, you know, I mean, who must be there? Yeah. I may return to it one day. I don't know, but it'll always be out there. And and yeah. So for those that were wondering, you know, why there hasn't been any new episodes on Planet Sleep, it's because it's just kind of on hold for now for the indefinite or, you know, who knows when Because again, if it went, he'll come back. But dramatic of you. Well, yeah. So a lot going on just personally for us -- Yeah. -- and -- Yeah. -- business wise has just been absolutely crazy. So thank you guys for hanging with us and our schedules and upload dates have been kinda wonky lately. We've had just so much going on, but we're, you know, this end of the year as well as just kind of busy for We've had just so much going on, but we're you know, this end of the year as well as just kinda busy for for everybody. So hopefully going into the next year, we can really get our studios all set up and just really kinda fund our flow again. Mhmm. When it comes to the shows. But one other thing I wanted to mention regarding high level wellness -- Oh. -- for those that didn't didn't hear or know, we're actually running a really, really great sale right now on our thousand milligram CBD oils. They're normally ninety four, ninety nine. And they're now sixty nine ninety nine. Yeah. And we're running that for the next couple of weeks. So definitely take advantage of that because you get double the CBD, which is just gonna help you fill the effects even more. And they're gray oils. They're amazing. Yeah. That's the taste of them. And that's all the flavors as well. So just wanna throw that out there again. That's harlow walnuts dot com. But And we have international shipping to a few more customers. Oh, yeah. That's great point. Yeah. Which that's even been crazy because now with the virus kinda coming back, like, Yeah. The postal service shut us down from shipping to New Zealand and Australia, unfortunately. Oh, yeah. They're literally just not sending ship from the announcement. You know? Yeah. We can't do anything. We'd love to hand deliver it to you. But Yeah. So Kinda suck on that one. Yeah. Unfortunately. So right now, it's UK -- Mhmm. -- and Mexico right now. Mhmm. And hopefully, we can expand into more countries next year, and know all of our Canadian fans are dying to get your hands on it. And unfortunately, we just can't get it up there yet. Canada is tough, man. Canada is tough. It's very tough to get into. So tougher than I would have thought. Yeah. It's been a learning experience, but It really hasn't. Anyway, we won't ramble on anymore. You ready to get it into the episode here? Yes. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Zen Business Raycon, Headspace, Native and Quip. So today, we're talking about the disappearance of Christopher Danzbee. And Shane Walker. So Christopher Milton Danby was born on March thirtieth nineteen eighty seven. He lived with his mother, Alison Danzby, and his older brother, Lavonne, in Harlem, New York City. And when all of this happened, Christopher was only two years old. Lavan was only three and their mother Alison was twenty six. Christopher's father was a forty six year old aircraft mechanic named Milton Robbins. Melton lived in Miami and he wasn't really a part of Christopher's life very much. Christopher went by the nickname Chu Choo, and his brother Lavonne's nickname was Poncho. Christopher was a very happy and playful child who loved cuddling and spending time with his mother. His dad described him as a very handsome, curly haired boy and said that he was exceptionally beautiful. Alison grew up in the Martin Luther King Junior Towers, which is an affordable housing community in New York City, and Alison still lived there with Christopher in nineteen eighty nine. Allison's mother Elizabeth and her siblings, many of her cousins, also lived in the same building at forty one West one hundred and twelfth Street. Christopher was known for being very attached to his family. He loved his mother dearly. He was always so affectionate with them, especially his He was always so affectionate with them, especially his mom and whenever Alison would come in the room, Christopher's face would just light up with happiness. He loved to be outside, going to play at the playground at the Martin Luther King Towers community was one of his favorite things to do. Now Christopher and his family lived in same building as another little boy named Shane Walker. And before August of nineteen eighty nine, the two families had actually never really crossed paths. So Shane Anthony Walker was born on December seventh nineteen eighty seven and also lived in Harlem with his mother, Rosalie Glover or Rosa for short, She was a thirty five year old Cook at Columbia University. And Shane was nineteen months old at the time of August nineteen eighty nine. Now, Rosa didn't think that she would be able to have kids, so she was just overjoyed when she became pregnant with Shane. She called him her special boy. Shane's father was a thirty nine year old construction worker named James Walker, and he didn't live with Rose in Shane, but every Thursday he had dropped by Rose's house to give her money for their son and spend some time with him. Overall, Shane was a really happy child who always had a smile on his face. He loved monkeys and he also had a bunch of stuffed teddy bears. And in fact, while he was growing up, his family briefly had a pet chimpanzee named James. And Shane loved to sit by James' cage and feed him bananas. Shane was also very attached to his mom and didn't want to go anywhere without her be separated from Shane was also very attached to his mom and didn't wanna go anywhere without her or be separated from her anytime. He was actually terrified of strangers. And if strangers ever approached him, he would yell and scream out for her and fear. Shane also didn't like walking much and he liked to be carried by his mother instead. So Rosa carried him everywhere. And when he didn't want to walk, he would cry and tug at his mom until she would pick him up. And like we said earlier, even though both of them lived in the same towers, Alison and Rosa had never met. Oddly enough, Rosa's niece and Alison's sister had been friends in the past, but they had some type of falling out. And were no longer friends at that point. But both families lived in the eighth tower, which was usually just referred to as tower forty one street address forty one west hundred and twelfth street. The Martin Luther King junior towers do play a really important role in this case, in these cases. So it's important to understand this place in the time that these boys lived in in order to fully understand their stories. So like we said, the Martin Luther king Jr towers are a housing So like we said, the Martin Luther King junior towers are a housing project. They're located in New York City in the central Harlem neighborhood. The project was initially named the Stephen Foster Towers and its construction was completed in nineteen fifty four. But the towers were renamed in honor of doctor Martin Luther King junior after he was assassinated in nineteen sixty eight. This project is made up of ten buildings that hold total of thirteen seventy three apartments, and each building has about fourteen floors. Central Harlem was not a very safe area in eighty nine, The crime rates were very high, but residents living in the city's public housing projects generally were safer than those that didn't. But still people living in the towers did have to deal with criminal activity. The residents who lived in this housing project usually didn't know each other very well. I mean, there's a ton of people In each building, there's hundreds and hundreds of people that live in it. And this lack of community togetherness was a problem that low income communities often faced and it tended to make crime harder to prevent. Without strong community bonds, residents are more likely to focus on their own personal safety and less likely to look out for each other. They're also less likely to try and prevent neighborhood crime by calling the police or traveling in groups. Also just in general, the nineteen eighties were not the best time for New York City as a whole. The city was still recovering from the economic struggles of the seventies and the effects of the crack cocaine epidemic made the recovery even harder. The policies of policing in this time had and continue to have a disastrous effect on inner city communities. Thanks to policies started by the government's war on drugs, mass incarceration, as we know it today was in full swing in nineteen eighty nine. And the number of people imprisoned for nonviolent drug offenses began to explode. A disproportionate number of those who were arrested were working class people of color. The lack of community togetherness mixed with the obvious and understandable trust of the NYPD in nineteen eighty nine often stopped a lot of crime prevention. And Rosa remembered that at the time violence and drug related crime were widespread spread in New York and especially in central Harlem. She said there were a lot of junkies in the neighborhood and she used that term and she even saw people running around the streets naked. Still, the towers were full of people trying their best to live their lives and raise their children. Many of these parents like to enjoy some time outside with their kids at the towers park, which had a big playground for all the kids who lived in the towers to run around and play on. This was a place that Christopher often loved to play at. So the towers park was located at one hundred and thirteen Street in Lenox Avenue, which is on the outer edge of the project. It was a classic playground with a playset that had slides and monkey bars, a swing set, basketball courts, spray showers, and benches, The playground was surrounded by eight foot tall chain link fences and had multiple entrances, and most of the entryways could be accessed from the tower's property which surrounded the park. Another entrance was accessible from Lennox Avenue, the busy street that bordered the park to the west. There was a hole in the fence that kids often used to come in and out. You haven't been to New York City in a long, long time. Right? No. I was like five. I don't even really remember anything. So I went to New York City when I was, I believe, going into my senior of high school. Yeah. And You're just starting to date at that point. Now is the first time I had ever been actually a family that's has lived up in Manhattan for many, many years. So went up to visit them and this was kind of my first time visiting this area actually went through Harlem and some of these other areas in New York City. And just going through this case, I was just, like, vividly taking me back to all these different, you know, types of buildings. Like, my my family actually lives in a neighborhood or in an apartment building complex much like this in Manhattan where it's the same similar layout. They kind of lay it out very similar for all of them. Cause there's not a lot of them there's not a lot space. Right? There's not big open spaces for parks like we have here in Colorado or other states. Obviously, they're central park, but other than that, it's a lot of like playgrounds just kind of in the middle of these tall tall apartment buildings. It's really kind of if you've never been in New York City, And you don't you don't live within a large city and like I didn't. I was living in the country, so I went there. I was like, oh my god, this is crazy because -- It's so different. -- it's just like you look up and it's just towering huge buildings. Even these apartment buildings are super, super tall and they're all around you and you kinda there's kinda this feeling of being in closed little bit, like -- Mhmm. -- and just kind of, for me, claustrophobic. But -- Yeah. -- but there was ton there's tons of people living in small areas of land, which think was kind of the most astounding thing to me is that people a lot of people like living this way and just thrive in this environment, but me. I was like, whoa, this has lots to do, lots people. Yeah. But it also does make it harder to kind of keep track of who's doing what versus you go to parks like around us and there's not as there's just not as many people there. Most of the, of the time. And it's hard because you do think you know, with all those buildings, there's so many people probably looking out over the park. Isn't there a lot of people to see something Windows. -- Yeah. You would think. Yeah. It's really not how it works. It's it's one of those things where you think with a lot of people being around that people would notice stuff, but in New York, everybody lives in their own little bubble. It seems like, like, even on the streets, like, people are just it's not like everybody's like, hi. How's it going? Hey, you know, everybody's kind of head down and kind of on their own mission and they're not really like looking around as Hey. You know, everybody's kinda head down and kind of on their own nature. Mhmm. And they're not really, like, looking around as much. And that was just my experience, but -- Yeah. -- it just kind of reminded me of you know, where this all unfolds. But before we get into the actual disappearance, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. building a business is a path to building the life you've always a business is a path to building the life you've always wanted. And you don't have to make that journey and you don't have to make that journey alone. Zen business is your trusted guide giving you essential skills and resources to help you start and grow your business while balancing your well-being, which is super important. 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So higher. let's get into Christopher's disappearance. It occurred on the evening of May eighteenth nineteen eighty nine. That day, Alison took Christopher and Lavonne to play at the playground. This is something we normally did. They were joined by Alison's mother Elizabeth and his aunt Carolyn. And his seven year old cousin as well, Elton, and also some other members of their family. It was a hot summer day and the park was very crowded. But even though it was really crowded, there were about five adults watching the kids. Christopher was having a blast playing at the playground that day. His favorite thing to do there was play on slides, but he was a little too small to use the big slide by himself, so his mother went down it with him a couple of times. And at one point Christopher was playing with a ten year old girl and a five year old boy that were also playing at the playground. Christopher was having a great time and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. On a typical day at the park, their family would let the kids play while an adult in the group would run to the corner store and buy some snacks. snacks. So around 6:30 PM, Alison decided to go to the store and grab some food and pick out a bucket of crabs from a street vendor on a hundred 18th street, she didn't have Christopher stroller with So around six thirty PM, Alison decided to go to the store and grab some food and pick out a bucket of crabs from a street vendor on a hundred eighteenth street. She didn't have Christopher Stroller with her so she had him stay at the park and asked her family to watch him while she was out. Alison gave her son a hug, and a kiss and told him that she would be right back. back. He looked up at her and said, I love you, He looked up at her and said, I love you mommy, and then she left for the store. Allison's mother Elizabeth had been watching Elton and Christopher play with a red ball by the bathrooms right before Allison came back with the food. Now what was a bit strange is Alison didn't bring a red ball to the park for her son, and nobody else had brought one for the kids to play with that day. So right away, they were confused about how the kids got a hold of this ball. Around seven PM, Allison came back to the playground, but when she did, she didn't see her son. She immediately asked her mother where Christopher was and Elizabeth said that he was somewhere close by. Allison couldn't immediately find him so she started to look around the park. Imagine that feeling of panic sitting on, like, terrible. I I can only imagine we don't have kids yet, but when I do, like, just You know, sure you've experienced at some point whether it's a pet or some or just anything in life where, like, your stomach drops and just you you are automatically on the verge of a total full out panic attack. I mean, you guys have experienced panic attacks, but, like, never experienced a full blown panic attack, but I've gotten pretty close before, before. And that's like one of the scariest things, especially like, oh my God, where did that's, like, one of the scariest things, especially -- Yeah. -- like, oh my god. Where did it? it? Where did that person or animal did that person or animal go? Yeah. It's just tears. When you lose an animal for a second, it's horrible. Oh, yeah. Because then you're like, oh my god. Where do I even start? Like, where do I start? There's no idea. What's the what's the fuck do I do? Well, because your time becomes, you know, of the essence. So you really have to think quickly and figure out, especially when we lose How do I use this time? Yeah. It's so scary. can't imagine how it'd be with a child. Right. I truly cannot imagine what that would be like. I know. So Elizabeth had actually been talking to a friend for few minutes before she noticed that Christopher was gone. Elizabeth ended up being the last adult family member that saw Christopher. Another witness had seen him playing with those two kids, the ten year old girl and a five year old boy in the moments before he disappeared. Allison's bought it Caroline, whose Christopher's aunt, and asked her if she knew where Christopher was. Caroline told her that she had just seen him a second ago. All the other kids were still accounted for, but nobody knew where Christopher was. It seemed like he was there one minute and just gone the next. And of course, as the minute started to pass by with no sign of Christopher, an overwhelming feeling of anxiety washed over Allison. She and her family immediately began searching all over the playground, but nobody could find her son. The family was now panicking and running around yelling Christopher's name but there was still no sign of him anywhere. After they realized that he was not in the park, Allison frantically called the police. police. Officer's quickly arrived on the scene and they began their own quickly arrived on the scene and they began their own search. They asked people on the street and nearby the playground playground. If they had seen Christopher or had, you know, noticed anything that was out of the if they had seen Christopher or had you know, noticed anything that was out of the ordinary. Multiple officers began to canvassed and searched the towers. They knocked on residence doors offered them reward money for any information. These apartments were completely searched for any sign of Christopher or any signs that there had been a struggle However, the apartment was difficult for the police to search because of the sheer size of these buildings and the large number of people that lived in them. Soon after, police also decided to dispatch helicopters to the search area, and the search area was expanded to twenty four blocks, which is a huge area Area of land to, to serve, especially with this many people in land to -- Mhmm. -- to search especially with this many people in it? Yes. Investigators were really worried that Christopher may have wandered off to Harlem Mir, which is the nearby lake in Central Park. And it wasn't long before they brought scuba divers out to search the lake and see if maybe he had fallen in, but they found nothing. Allison gave police some of Christopher's clothing items so that search dogs could track his scent, and the search dogs did pick up his scent at the playground and followed it south down Linux Avenue before the sent trail ended at a hundred and tenth Street. Hours and hours started to pass with no sign of Christopher anywhere. Their family was absolutely beside themselves with worry. Eventually, the day turned tonight and night turned today again that Christopher did not turn up. So the day after Christopher disappeared, his cousin Elton actually ended up spotting him while he was at school. His school was right across the Street from the towers on a hundred and twelfth Street. Elton was playing on the schoolyard that afternoon when he saw Christopher walking with a man outside of the school on a hundred and eleventh Street. He said that Christopher was wearing the same clothes he wore to the park the day before. And Elton actually ran inside to tell his principal and the school ended up calling the police about the siding. Elton described the suspect as a thin six foot tall black man with dreadlocks and a mustache who looked to be between twenty five and thirty years old. Police dogs searched hundred eleventh street but they couldn't pick up Christopher scent. Unfortunately, the siding did not lead to Christopher being found. The police continued investigating his disappearance and they classified his case as a non family abduction. Which is a kidnapping by a stranger. After the disappearance, Christopher's father, Milton, actually flew up to New York City from his home in Florida to meet with investigators. He was not in New York at the time his son disappeared and police were able to clear him of any involvement in the case fairly quickly. And as word of Christopher's disappearance got around, rumor started to form, and some of them were accusing Alison of really horrible things. They spread rumors that Allison was buying crack when her son disappeared, or that drug dealers stole him to pay off a drug debt. Some people even accused her of selling her son. Or drug money. Alison has admitted that she was addicted to crack cocaine in the past, but when Christopher went missing, she had already been in recovery for years. Allison carried a lot of shame and guilt about her past though, but she has insisted that her addiction did not interfere with being a loving mother to her children. She hadn't owed anyone money either, and she firmly stated that she would never do anything to her her children. Lavan and Christopher were the most important people in her life, life. And they were her number one they were her number one priority. Alison and her family ended up taking polygraphs, which Alison said she passed. However, police said the results were inconclusive, but we always know that polygraph tests are not one hundred percent accurate by any means. But we turned into months and the family waited for the news that Christopher had been found, but it never came. Less than three months later, the tragic events of May eighteenth would repeat themselves on that very same playground. August tenth nineteen eighty nine was a hot summer day in New York, and Rosa had two days off of work. That evening, she decided to take Shane out for a little bit of fresh air and some playtime at the tower's playground. She went with her son to a cornerstone to buy Shane some chips to snack on, and the two walked to the park. park. Rosa had no idea that Christopher Dansby had gone missing from that same had no idea that Christopher Danzby had gone missing from that same park just three months earlier. If she had known what had happened on May eighteenth, she would have never taken her son to that park again. It was a crowded evening at the playground. And many parents had just gotten off of work and wanted to take their kids out to blow off some steam. Shane was wearing a blue in my t shirt, light blue pants, and white sneakers. His hair is braided back into ponytails. Sometime before five PM, PM. Rosa was sitting on a park bench, eating strawberry ice cream and watching her son was sitting on a park bench eating strawberry ice cream. And watching her son play. And not long after they arrived, two kids approached her. A ten year old girl and her five year old brother. They asked Rosa if Shane was allowed to play with them. And Rosa thought their request was weird at first because the kids looked a lot older than Shane. She didn't think that they'd have fun playing with a kid who was so young, and that could barely talk. So she tried to shoot them away. But still these kids insisted that they wanted to play with Shane. And Shane. And she asked them if they really wanted to play with her son, even though he was so much younger than them and the kids replied and said they didn't she asked them if they really wanted to play with her son even though he was so much younger than them. And the kids replied and said they didn't mind. mind. So Rosa reluctantly agreed to let Shane play with Rosa reluctantly agreed to let Shane play with them. And this was the first time that she'd ever let other kids. Play with Shane. While Rosa was watching the children play, a man with a broken arm sat down next to her and struck up a conversation. He spoke with her about crime in the area, and he said that he worried things weren't safe for the kids anymore. He mentioned the kidnapping of a child from the park that happened months earlier, and told Rosa that bad things happen to kids nowadays. The man then started pointing out some scars he had on his body. And Rosa turned her head to see the scars while the manics plane that he had gotten them from getting into fights. She only had her eyes off of the children for a few moments, but when she turned her head again, She saw that the kids were gone. Immediately, immediately. She got up and started to look around the park for she got up and started to look around the park for Shane. And after about three minutes of searching, Rosa spotted the two kids Shane had been playing with. They walked out of a hole in the fence and into the park. She came up to them and asked them where her son was, and the kids told her that they had left him at the playground. At that point, Rosa started to panic as she began running all over the park screaming Shane's name over and over again. Other visitors obviously noticed Rosa frantically searching and they volunteered to help her look for her son. But nobody at the playground could find Shane. Rosa then called the police and they quickly arrived at the park to start searching for him. Just like the search for Christopher, please immediately canvassed the towers in question impossible witnesses. They thoroughly searched the grounds checking every building's dumpsters, garbage shoots, rooftops, elevator shafts, locked rooms, and basements, but they couldn't find Shane anywhere. Eventually, Eventually the day ended and Rosa had to return home without her son, her only son, while police continued their investigation to aid in the the day ended and Rosa had to return home without her son her only son, while police continued their investigation. To aid in the search, NYPD ended up putting a van outside of Rosa's building to use the twenty four hour command post for the investigation. And in the van, please examined maps and evidence they took phone calls as their search area continued to grow. After speaking with several witnesses, police stated that they were seeking out an unidentified man or questioning. The police described the suspect as an African American nineteen to twenty four years old, five foot, eight inches tall wearing a yellow shirt and acid washed jeans. And one interesting thing that they did in this case was actually get a police van equipped with loud speakers, like, giant kinda bullhorn speakers, and they would just drive up and down the neighborhood calling out for information, giving descriptions of Shane and the suspect, asking anyone with information to come forward, And Christopher's mom, Alison, actually first found out about Shane's disappearance from these announcements. Police officers came to Rose's house every day to investigate an they even wiretapped her phone lines. And eventually, the police did find the two kids that, you know, Shane was playing with at the time that he disappeared. And they questioned both of them extensively and even questioned their parents as well. And the kids told police that they were playing with Shane, and when they turned around for just a moment, he disappeared. Both kids stated that they didn't see anyone take Shane and they had no idea where he went. And after these interviews, the police cleared the kids of any involvement in Shane's disappearance as well as the kids parents who were also questioned. Police also found and interviewed man who talked to Rosa that day in the park, and they also cleared him of any involvement. Then a few days later, Rosa ended up getting a really weird phone call, and it was very upsetting. And this call came from a total stranger. The caller told her that Shane was buried in a vacant crack house that was falling apart and had people squatting in it. This house was on a hundred and thirteenth Street in Lenox Avenue. avenue. The date of this is not known, but at some point the police ended up demolishing the entire house to look for The date of this is not known, but at some point, the police ended up demolishing the entire house to look for Shane. And unfortunately, they never found anything under the house or even found out who made the call in the first place. At one point, Shane's father ended up taking a polygraph test. And he said he passed. However, police reported that the results were inconclusive, just like they had done when Christopher's data took a polygraph test. So obviously, one of the things that makes this case so particularly strange is the fact that Shane's appearance was almost identical to what happened to Christopher, only a few months earlier. At first, investigators did not believe the two cases had anything to do with each other. Eventually, though, they started to realize that the two cases were too similar not to be related. And at a press conference on August fourteenth nineteen eighty nine, only four days after Shane went missing, it was announced that investigators believe Shane and Christopher's cases were most likely linked. So before we get more into the investigation, we're gonna take another quick break. 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That's $10 off a smart electric [email protected] slash mile hire 10 Quip is the good habits ten dollars off a smart electric toothbrush at get quick dot com. Slash mile higher ten, GETQUIP dot com slash mile higher ten. Quip is the good habits company. The company. police eventually announced that they were investigating both Shane and Christopher's cases as kidnappings by strangers, and they also offered a thirty thousand dollar reward for any information that could help find the boys. And according to investigators, it's highly unusual for toddler to go missing without a trace and never be seen again. Investigators also said that they were seeking two men for questioning, and the only similarity between the two men was the fact that they both had dreadlocked hair. The similarities between the cases were striking. The two boys were both African Americans similar in age and lived in the same building at the King Towers. Also, the two boys both disappeared from the same area of the same playground. And one of the most bizarre similarities of all was that both disappeared on hot crowded Thursday evenings at similar times. Christopher went missing at seven PM and Shane went missing at five PM. But both on Thursday which is very odd. And also both of the boys played with two kids, a ten year old girl and a five year old boy right before they disappeared. Five days after Shane went missing, Deputy Chief Ronald Fenrich confirmed at a press conference that the kids who played with Christopher and the kids who played with Shane were actually the same two kids. This is what Rosa believed to be the most suspicious similarity. This is something interesting to note that while we were watching the unsolved mysteries episode, there was actually somebody on the show that claimed that the kids were not the same. same. She said that they looked through police reports while researching the episode and saw no mention of this She said that they look through police reports while researching the episode and saw no mention of this detail. But again, this is coming straight from a deputy at this nineteen eighty nine press conference, so it's possible that The reports just got messed up. I mean, there's definitely could have been a mistake there. Again, police insisted that they cleared both kids after questioning them and their parents extensively and thoroughly. Investigators also reported that they believed Christopher and Shane's abductors had some relation to each other, either they were both co conspirators in the kidnappings or they were both parts of a larger conspiracy to kidnap children for a specific purpose. And both Christopher and Shane's mom said that their kids would not have gone anywhere with a stranger unless they were lured away at first. Shane's mom Rosa strongly believes that an abductor coached the two kids who played with Shane. She believes that after the kids lured Shane away from her, the abductor grabbed him and ran off. Christopher's mom mom. Alison thinks that someone used the mysterious red ball that Christopher was playing with in order to pull him away from the family, because nobody in the family brought the ball and the police never recovered thinks that someone used the mysterious red ball that Christopher was playing with in order to pull him away from the family. Because nobody in the family brought the ball and the police never recovered it. So Alison believes Christopher's abductor lured him away with it before kidnapping him. Lennox Avenue was a busy street with lots of cars coming and going, so an abductor could have quickly grabbed Christopher or Shane and thrown them in the car without anyone noticing and been gone. Both parents think that the abductors put a hand over their children's mouths in order to muffled their crying because again, they probably would have cried if they had just been picked up by a stranger. And a crowded park full of kids and parents is probably wouldn't have raised a lot of suspicion. Toddlers cry in public and parents usually try to quiet them or move them somewhere else so they don't disturb other people. But as time went on, please continue to investigate any leads they received. And because both the boys seemingly just disappeared out of thin air, police had to rely more on tips and leads and solid evidence. In the nineteen eighties, there weren't cameras on every street corner outside of every store, like there are now, so police didn't have any useful photos or video evidence from the days the boys disappeared, which makes things way, way harder. Investigators initially worked off the assumption that pedophiles or serial killers kidnapped the boys, They questioned hundreds of local child molesters and sex offenders regarding the cases, but none of these leads panned out. What was also interesting to the police was that neither of the families were ever contacted by someone who wanted money or a ransom. So kidnapping for a ransom was ultimately ruled out. At one point, there is a lead when a local female who was addicted to crack cocaine had a child that died. And this was looked into further to see if there's any sort of connection to Christopher and Shane but that lead ended up going cold as well. By this point, Rosa was absolutely desperate for answers. She was completely heartbroken that her son was still missing and that she had no answers as to what had happened to him or where he had gone. Rosa was willing to try anything at this point in order to find her son, and at one point she went on the daytime talk show called Gerardo to speak to a psychic. And the psychic told Rosa that a Hispanic man in a station wagon kidnapped Shane and sold him to a rich family in Philadelphia. And according to the psychic, Shane was very loved by this family and she told Rosa that he was learning to play the piano. What? Yeah. Like, how is that gonna help her So frustrating. this? I know. Based off of the psychic abilities apparently. Well, it's hard because, Because I mean, psychics literally are used by law enforcement and the FBI in multiple I mean, psychics literally are used by -- Yeah. -- law enforcement and FBI in multiple cases, and sometimes right. So it's like, I understand as family wanting to hear so many things possible and trying to clutch to any belief or hope. But it's just, like, where do you go with that information? What do you do? Right. And it it can just make things worse, I think, in some Yeah. My My thing was psychics is that there's no way to measure ability, with psychics is that there's no way to measureability. Right? This is, like, pure I mean, anybody could be a psychic. That's the hardest part. It's like, obviously, you can prove ability to some extent. Yeah. And some psychics are able to prove that they have this profound ability, but it's also very you know, it's not like I'm sure police departments don't have, like, some way to measure the psychics that they usually probably just fall off of success. Success. Yeah. Yeah. And credit like past credit, like, past credibility. credibility. Yeah. And how do you know even like, if a psychic is going to get it right one time and then not write another, I mean, there's, what's the margin for error how do you know even, like, if a psychic gonna get it right one time and then not write another. I mean, there's -- Yeah. -- what's the margin for error there? I mean, it seems like It's like, obviously, this was a TV show. It's for Entertainment Gerardo. Whatever that -- Right. Right. -- actually know it, show that is. Well, that's Deraldo Riviera, I believe, is his last name. He was on Fox's name. He's okay. I don't know if he's on a show. Where he is. Yeah. He was a daytime talk show host back in the day. Okay. Well, yeah. I don't I don't know. I mean Could have just been for ratings? Yeah. It's it's hard when that stuff is, like, on in public too. Yeah. You have depression in a little bit. Right. Right. amlint really sucks is the fact that All she said was that it was a rich family in Philadelphia. Philadelphia. So it's like, what are you going to So it's like, what are you gonna do? do? Go find Go find your family in the grocery store in Philadelphia. Exactly. It's like, so broad. It just doesn't provide any sort of direct path before to go next. It's just like a it's just giving her an idea to think about really within the Well, it's not like, you know, even the psychics that do work with the FBI. It's not like they give them, oh, go to this address, and here it is. Like it's normally like someone will be found near water or on this date or -- Right. You know Not like name, address, phone number. Here you go. We're only vague, and it's never something that really points you out. We're really pulling it from. Right. I don't know. I don't know. I know people have bearing opinions on subjects using for crime. Definitely. Serious on yours. What was also going on in the late eighties and nineties though was the satanic panic frenzy, which was in full swing. And a lot of Americans believe that cults were abusing children as parts of a satanic ritual. And detectives got thousands of reports of satanic ritual abuse taking place during the time that the two boys were missing. And so they thought it was a possibility that the boys could be victims to, you know, some group that was conducting some type of ritual with them. Specifically, there's a talk of a child sacrifice cult that kidnapped the boys and that they may no longer be in the United States. And detectives ended up traveling to various places, including Puerto Rico, St. Croix and St. Thomas. However, when investigators visited the islands, they found out these rumors were not supported by any evidence whatsoever. And despite there being no real leads, tips still poured in. And by nineteen ninety one, police had investigated over five hundred leads that they received from all fifty US states and parts of Canada. So it's just like all over the place could be could be anywhere. In January of nineteen ninety one, a child's body matching Christopher's size and age was discovered in a wooded area thirty miles outside of Atlantic City, New Jersey. And it was first thought that maybe this child was Christopher. However, after further investigating the child's footprints, Christopher was ruled out as a match, And as the decades passed and tips and leads dried up, the cases went cold. And to this day, Christopher Danzby and Shane Walker have never been found. So Christopher's father, Milton, ended up moving from Miami to Harlem and ended up getting custody of Christopher's older brother, Lavonne, and the whole experience was very traumatizing for Lavonne as you can imagine. He slept in the bunk beds that he and his brother shared after he was gone, gone. And it was just hard for him every night to not have his little brother there with him or by his side throughout the it was just hard for him every night to not have his little brother there with him or buy his side throughout the day, and he had to fight off his nightmares alone. In nineteen ninety one, five year old Lavonne made heartbreaking plea for Christopher's return. return. He told a reporter that if someone has him, if they see that he's choo choo, they can bring him to my house with my name on him, just told a reporter that if someone has him, if they see that he's choo choo, they can bring him to my house with my name on him. Just heartbreaking. Shane's mother, Rosa, was also in a state of absolute despair, losing her only child. Her sister, Barbara, became so concerned about Rosa's mental health that she personally kept her on suicide watch until she could have metal bars installed in Rosa's windows in her apartment. Despite her extreme depression over Shane being gone, Rosa really wanted to be mother again. She tried to have another child after Shane disappeared, but she wasn't able to conceive. And in nineteen ninety one, she unsuccessfully tried to adopt a child. And to make matters even worse. worse. She also battled breast cancer twice in 1997, investigators became suspicious after learning that Rosa was in legal battle with an insurance company, they discovered that she had bought a life insurance policy for Shane and the days before he disappeared, seven weeks after he vanished, she attempted to collect the policies proceeds, but the insurance company turned her down because there was no death certificate for Shane Rosa told investigators that she purchased the policy before the recent trip to Disney world, because she was worried that their flight to Orlando would crash while the insurance policy seemed also battled breast cancer twice. In nineteen ninety seven, investigators became suspicious after learning that Rosa was in a legal battle with an insurance company. They discovered that she had bought a life insurance policy for Shane in the days before he disappeared. Seven weeks after he vanished, she attempted to collect the policy's proceeds, but the insurance company turned her down because there was no death certificate for Shane. Rosa told investigators that she purchased the policy before their recent trip to Disney World because she was worried that their flight to Orlando would crash. While the insurance policy seemed questionable, the investigators again cleared Rosa of any involvement in her son's disappearance. Rosa claims that she sometimes still sees Shane in her dreams. hears him calling out mommy, mommy, please confine me. I truly cannot even picture what that would be like, having to deal with that every night. And every year she decorates her house for Christmas, and she puts up a Christmas tree with ornaments made of Shane's pictures. pictures. Her house is also filled with framed photos and age progressions of Shane as house is also filled with framed photos and age progressions of Shane as well. well. Alison is now a grandmother and she works in health care at Rikers is now a grandmother, and she works in healthcare at Ryker's Island. She's described her son's disappearance as a nightmare that she can't wake up from. While she's battled with serious depression, depression. She said that she has stayed strong for Lavonne and her she said that she has stayed strong for Lavonne and her grandchildren. And although Alison no longer lives in the King Towers, Allison's mother still resides there to this day. And every year, King Tower's residents hold a family day, which is a community event in honor of Christopher and Shane. Residents gather at the park for performances from resident wrap groups, a basketball tournament, prayer readings, and dance. So really no closure for their family. And it's something that they have carried all of this time. The pain and anguish, the curiosity, wondering what happened, wondering -- Yeah. -- where they went. went. You know, it's just an, have both of these families go through something so similar, at least they could connect with each other, but it's just so shocking and clear that these cases are probably know, it's just and to have both of these families go through something so similar, at least they could connect with each other, but it's just so shocking and clear that these cases are probably connected. Yeah. I mean, the police strongly believe that they are. And, I mean, just to have to lay in bed at night and run through all the theories, the one if so what may have happened to your child is gotta be the absolute worst. Torture, really. I mean, it's -- Yes. -- truly even imagine what that would be like. And I mean, the theory is natural. Yeah. Exactly. exactly. I mean, the theories of where the boys might be today, all center around the different motives that their abductors might've had, you know, in the first place to kidnap mean, The theories of where the boys might be today all centered around the different motives that their abductors might have had, you know, in the first place to kidnap them. Mhmm. But Rosa believes that the two kids who played with Shane before he vanished had something to do with his disappearance. And I I agree. I think clearly there was a distraction put in place in order to get their child away from, you know, their parents in order to take them somewhere, but make it look innocent. Like, they're just blank. Because it's very I mean, a ten year old I know. Yeah. I mean With a two year old, like -- Yeah. -- what? I totally see it. It's little strange. It's it is odd. The way they described it is odd. I mean, the whole how it played out. But it's it's kind of hard to wrap your mind around kids being involved in a crime or participating and, you know, especially the fact that they talk to the parents and seemed to roll that out as That's true. Yeah. But the one thing is they were very very pushy. About being able to Right. That's that's what I'm saying saying. It's like, they didn't give up, they were persistent and till they got what they wanted, ultimately like, they didn't give up. They were persistent until they got -- Right. -- what they what they wanted also And that is odd. I mean, I definitely think it's odd. And then they just, like, all of a sudden all of a sudden the kid disappears, and then they they all of a sudden show back up into the into the playground. Like, oh, yeah. We have no idea where we want it's like, wait a minute. Like, come on. on. Like you're old enough that you should be able to least you're old enough that you should be able to at least Hard, especially with two kids because, again, they interviewed them. Again, again. You can question the interviewing itself, but it's, it's hard for kids to get in there and lie and keep their facts straight and like really pull something like that you can question the interviewing itself. Yeah. But it's it's hard for kids to get in there in line keep their feedback. That's true. That's true. Like, really pull something like that off, especially two of them really young. mean -- I mean, some people will -- will part of this one particular theory, you know, that they were brought into some type of pedophile ring and that perhaps these two children were groomed from a very young age and kind of brainwashed and very well coached in order to sort of make this elaborate operation happen. happen. I mean, obviously that seems unlikely, but is it I mean, obviously, that seems unlikely, but is it impossible? No. And it does happen. happen. It totally does It totally does happen. So I I understand why Rosa believes they could have involvement and they definitely get. And I I honestly do question the investigative ability of -- Mhmm. -- the police in this case, for sure. For both cases, yeah, back then. It's just really crazy. crazy. like how, you know, we don't have interrogation footage. We don't have any sort of transcripts really to look at to actually see how you know, because they could've just brought in the parents, like, do you guys have anything to do with it? No. And then that was the extent of the, you know, interrogation or questioning. I mean, oftentimes, that's what happens is police aren't actually, like, actively seeking the answers they need and it's more so formality to rule people in or out. interact. wonder if the case file or how much of the case file has been shared with Rosa, and if she's seen the transcripts file? Any of it. Probably not. But it's interesting that she still has that belief because maybe there was something in Well, I think that two kids just really stuck out to her. Yeah. And I I can see why He was like that. This is odd. odd. then the red ball too. Yeah. I wonder Wonder with Christopher. Christopher. Yeah. Yeah. It seemed like it was very calculated. Mhmm. Very well planned out. out. scary. So after the two disappearances, rumors went around in Harlem that the boys were stolen by members of a crime ring that supposedly kidnapped children and then sold them on the black market. And please begin to investigate theory after they found a possible connection between the boys' cases and another infant abduction that happened the same year. And this was the case of Andre Bryant. Andrey Bryant was a one month old baby living in Brooklyn, New York with his mother, Monique Rivera. And on March twenty eighth nineteen eighty nine, Monique and her sons Rout for walk around Brooklyn when a Burgundy sedan pulled up to her. Two women got out of the car and started to chat with Monique about her children. And they asked to hold baby Andrey and eventually convinced her to go shopping with them. After they went shopping, the two women dropped Monique off at her apartment and she told her husband that she made plans to go shopping with them again the next day. And on March twenty ninth, nineteen eighty nine, Monique was waiting for the women to pick her up when they called her from a pay phone, and they asked if she was bringing baby Andre, but she told them that her sister was babysitting the kids at Monique's apartment. The women repeatedly insisted that she needed to bring baby Andre on the shopping trip, and eventually she agreed and Monique and Andre got into their car at two PM. PM. The next day police found Monique's body beaten and strangled in a wooded area of the next day, police found Monique's body beaten and strangled in a wooded area of the Bronx. She had bruises and broken nails, which told investigators that she had fought back against her attackers. However, Andre has never been seen again, and police never identified the two women who most likely kidnapped him. And while detectives investigated Andre, Christopher and Shane's cases, they noticed that all three disappearances had suspicious similarities. All three kidnappings happen within the same five month time span. span. All the victims were African-American infants living in New York and all three boys have never been seen or heard from again, which investigators continue to All the victims were African American infants living in New York and all three boys have never been seen or heard from again, which investigators continue to say that it's very unusual for toddlers to go missing. missing. Law enforcement believed that Andre, Christopher and Shane may have all been kidnapped and sold by members of a black market, baby selling enforcement believe that Andre, Christopher, and Shane may have all been kidnapped and sold by members of a black market, baby selling ring. And this crime ring supposedly abducted babies and toddlers and sold the children to new families. I guess there are some families out there that look for other ways to adopt children versus the traditional means because it doesn't always work out or it's too expensive. But at a nineteen eighty nine press conference where a police told press the boy's cases were linked. Police captain Ronald Fenneridge told reporters that he believed they were either abducted by a black market, baby selling ring, or someone who couldn't adopt a child. And some private adoption agencies did not think the baby selling theory was plausible. Officials from some local private adoption agencies claimed that adopting a black child in New York was, quote unquote, not difficult. The executive director of one agent he said that a black market for white babies existed, but she didn't believe there was one for black babies. Wow. Jeez. Still it's important to remember that the adoption process is very difficult. difficult. It's a very long process and it's very It's a very long process and it's very expensive, oftentimes. There are strict regulations that disqualify many people from adopting children. And if any member of the household has a record of emotional or physical health problems, Substance abuse or arrest the chances that that family will be approved drops significantly. Parents also have to prove that they have enough money who care for the child and they're required to let officials conduct a lengthy home study with a social worker. worker. The previous year to the The previous year to the boys disappearance is the NYPD actually bus a near employer who ran an illegal private adoption agency that sold babies to desperate families and for almost two decades, The agency paid unmarried mothers looking to have their babies adopted, took the children after birth and sold them to the parents who offered the most money. Literally auction off children. Birth moms were even often intimidated into creating fake records and birth certificates for the child. So the term black market babies usually refers to this type of illegal adoption process. However, a detective who works on the boy's cases stated in nineteen ninety that he believed they were kidnapped by two separate abductors who acted alone. He thought that these were people who wanted to raise a child but couldn't adopt or have their own kids. The detective argued that if there was actually some sort of black market baby selling operation in New York, police would have caught them by then. Or at least had some kind of solid evidence that a group like this even existed. Another detective also agreed and he said there is no credible evidence that pointed to the involvement of any black market baby ring, which kidnapped and sold children. He added that it would be really hard to find someone willing to kidnap a child and sell it for money. So let's talk more about the theory that, you know, this could have been some type of kidnapping by someone who wanted to abduct a child to raise as their own because, you know, x, y, and z. So obviously, babies and toddlers are kind of the perfect age for these types of crimes because they won't remember anything, anything. They can't they can't talk, and they adapt to new environments pretty quickly. And obviously, families that are looking to adopt may prefer kids that are younger because they want to experience raising a child from the beginning of their life. The abduction as adoption theory really earned some more credibility in two thousand eleven when a woman named Carlina White solved her own twenty three year old kidnapping case. She found out that back in nineteen eighty seven, the woman who she thought was her mom actually had kidnapped her from a hospital in Harlem when she was just a baby. Actually did a full video on this. this. If you want to check it out, it can be found on my channel, but it's a crazy If you wanna check it out, it can be found on my channel. But it's a crazy story. Her kidnapper basically was desperate to have child of her own, but she had suffered multiple miscarriages and was just devastated over it. So the thought of never being able to have children of her own really scared her and broke her heart. So she plotted to steal a baby for herself right out of the hospital. And this case gave Christopher and Shane's families a kind of renewed sense of hope that their son's could possibly reunite with them one day. And both of the families believe that someone like Carlina White's kidnapper who couldn't have kids could have stole their boys as well to start their own family. Then in two thousand seventeen, the Jacksonville Sheriff's Department solved a kidnapping case that was bizarrely similar to Carlinas. It was the case of Kymia Mobley, a newborn who was stolen from a hospital maternity ward when she was just eight hours old. Her abductor admitted to stealing her and raising her as her own for eighteen years after she had also suffered a miscarriage. After she talked with Kymaya's teenage mother, she believed that the baby would have a better life as her daughter instead. At the time, she thought the kidnapping was the right thing to do. So of course, it's possible that the people who took Shane and Christopher justified their actions with the same kind of thought process, the abductor may have told themselves that they were doing the right thing, you know, saving a child, or maybe they believe that they deserve this child more than the parents did. Did. Investigators have pretty much abandoned the black market baby ring have pretty much abandoned the black market baby ring theory theory. At this point, they think it's much more likely that the boys were kidnapped by lone individuals who wanted to raise them by this point. They think it's much more likely that the boys were kidnapped by lone individuals who wanted to raise them by themselves. ROSA and Alison have both submitted samples of their DNA to a genetic database and they're hoping that their missing boys will submit a sample one day that matches theirs. And I think that's very possible. It is. Honestly, like, with DNA tests and -- Mhmm. -- how that's gotten more and more popular over the years. I mean, who knows? I mean, hope I mean, hopefully, it happens at some point. But there is also other scenarios that might have played out as well. That -- Of course. -- aren't quite as hopeful. hopeful. I mean, what do you, what do you think what's your gut feeling about mean, what do you what do you think? What's your gut feeling about this? I don't know. I I think it's there's not enough information or any direction to really point in any which way to know what you know, what happened afterwards or what their motives were. Obviously, it's clear that it was an abduction. It was it was clearly planned out by the same by potentially the same Thursday or Most likely. Yeah. I mean, same place. It's just It's both on a Thursday afternoon. It's very awesome. Yeah. That that to me is the most eerie thing about the whole the all both cases is, like, Like, I think that was, like, planned, you know. Yeah. What are the chances that two separate people do it on the exact same day? It seems like someone was, like, time. Oh, this worked the first time. Right. Let me do this again. Right. But then that makes me think that it probably wasn't just the thought of someone taking the kid to raise his own because of the fact that -- Yes. -- is the same family's gonna be the same. kids. Like that's so that's so weird. They would probably get caught if two of the kids were kidnapped, wouldn't you as a kid, you'd actually be like, how did you get here vice versa? It raises the risk for sure, but it still lends to that theory because if it was a ring and someone who was organizing it and then adopting the kids out, it's possible that the people adopting the children didn't even know Right. I know the police seemed to think that's less likely. But, yeah, I see I see what you're saying. If they're connecting, it seems like it wouldn't be like the same family or something that just personally took them exactly the way that Carlina Wyatt was taken. That's what exactly I'm saying. think there's a bigger picture that because two kids were taken, there's gotta if it is related, there's gotta be some type of bigger organization that was you know, the mastermind behind all of this. Yeah. Because it just seems too weird that, you know, some random mom or something that miscarried took two kids at the same place at the so risky to me. Yeah. And I do think they're related related. Cause like, dude, how could they not like -- Mhmm. dude, how could they not be? They talked to the same little kids they were playing with right before. They were at the same park. They, you know, they were similar age, same day of the week. Yeah. It's just it's just the way it was executed executed. So perfectly, no one saw perfectly. No one saw anything. It was very quick. quick. It does seem does seem professional. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would like to think that they're still out there one day and it's possible that they were adopted by a family through some type of, you know, unknown sketch adoption or that they could be out there and being held, obviously, it's wishful thinking to think that they're still out there, but it's it's possible. And if I were their family, I would hang on to every ounce of hope I could, especially seeing it happen for other families eighteen years later, you know. Although the boys at this point would be thirty four and thirty three today, The national organization for missing exploited children has released age progressions progressions. That show what the boys might look like that show what the boys might look like now. And investigators are still optimistic that they could find the boys alive one day. Their families have never given up hope and they pray every day that they can hold their beloved boys in their arms. Once again. I would tell them I love them. I love them. And I miss you. I miss my being a part of your life, but so many years, why don't you grow up, go to school, Find your way home. Find your way home. My gut feeling is that this was due to the economic times in New York City and just sort of that, you know, there is a level of lawlessness, I think, just overall in these areas And and that was just a result of of the time period and what was going on in the city. And I think likely what happened was somebody decided that they could they figured out they could make money this way and figured out there is, you know, a way to profit off of these children and -- Maybe. -- and run an illegal adoption agency. That's that's what I think. I I don't think it's necessarily like a black market sort of thing. I think it could have literally just been like this person went into it, and these were the only two children that they kidnapped. And then after they did, they just sort of And it sounds crazy, but there's there's a constant sense like that. Yeah. Yeah. And And there are people out there are people out there, I mean, with Carolina White. I mean, just the fact that that also happened in a similar, you know, Harlem at the same time period. It's like clearly there were people that were looking for, you know, and that's not only case there's other cases from this time period in area where, you know, people were looking for ways to ADOP CHILDREN AND IT JUST WASN'T FEASIBLE. I FEELTS THAT THERE WAS LESS WATCH BECAUSE THE POLICE WERE SO FOCUSED ON THE DRUG problem at the time and so spread thin and distracted by that, that it was somewhat easier, especially because this was in a time where you know, nowadays, everyone has their phones out of the park, filming their kids. You you know, when you're in a group like that, CCTV in a city in New York, you know, you couldn't really pull something like that off without there being more of a trail, more evidence. Yeah. My thing too is, like, I'm just thinking of how quickly this all went down too. Like, this was within seconds. Like, it seems like A distraction was created -- Mhmm. -- for the for the parents. And then the child went with these two kids and they went to a spot where somebody could easily grab them through the fence or something and then be on Lenox Avenue and into a car in a matter of seconds when they're gone. I agree with you. That's the way it seems. It's really hard without the information from that interrogation. You know, not knowing about what that man said to them when he was sitting at the park bench with them. Right. Or what questions were asked? The kids, the parents, Yeah. What was said? What information did they get? What did they ask? It's hard to kinda make a judgment on that. They rolled them out for a reason. I'd like to hope. But I agree with you. It seems like, I mean, too many strange occurrences and it does really seem like a setup -- Sure. -- plot. Well, and and, like, I obviously don't believe this, but the police seemed to think that the mothers might have been worthwhile. And based on their histories and their drug, you know, their previous addictions and things like that, and then the life insurance policy is horrible. And again, that they were desperate for money, money. And so they gave up their and so they gave up their children for No. No money. Go. I think all of you guys should take time to watch this episode episode. If you haven't already, it just really hits home, listening to you haven't already. It just really hits home listening to their I mean, please and just how much trauma this has caused and has destroyed their lives. lives. I mean, they've never recovered from this and I don't know why anyone, I mean, it makes no I mean, they've never recovered from this. And I don't know why anyone I mean, it makes no sense. That theory makes really no sense to me. Also, the fact that they went missing in a public park, like, if you as a parent were gonna sell your kid, wouldn't you take them somewhere? Yeah. Less public. doesn't even make sense. It It doesn't make any make any sense. No. And other family members would have had to be involved in it in there, and it would all have Yeah. I don't know where the police are going with that. that. And that's, that's what makes you And that's that's what makes you question. Right. And that's what I'm saying is, like, how intense was the investigation -- actually. I they were kinda consistent. Going after the parents initially and -- Mhmm. -- I mean, I get it. You gotta clear both parents. But, like, it seems like they were trying to use that angle for a while. And my other thought too is just regarding, you know, a serial killer or something like that and just none of this the way that this went down really seems to me like a a serial killer and, you know, looking at serial killers that operated in New York City in that area, they were like Arthur Shawcross was one of the serial killers at the time and he went for women. And -- Mhmm. -- you don't really see too often serial killers going for young young children, like two year olds. olds. I mean, that's very like there's the Atlanta child murders and the not killer did go after young that's very like, there's the Atlanta child murders and and that killer did go after young children. But but it's honestly, like, when you look at serial killers across the board, it is fairly rare to find a serial killer that goes for their victims are that young. So to me and also, like, if there was a serial killer, I feel like somebody would have noticed something. That there was somebody out of the ordinary. So to me, I'm thinking, did did the person that the abductor, the actual person that abducted the children if it wasn't the two kids that, like, walked them straight to a vehicle, who was that person? And that person must have, like, blended in is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Versus it being an outside serial killer coming into -- No. -- this area to try to identify like, serial killer no. They're probably if it was, any type of a doctor, no matter what their intentions were, they probably did try to blend in like someone who's just at the park. Walking by the park. And again, this is such a busy area. area. I mean, there's so many people living in these apartment buildings, there's just so much going on mean, there's so many people living in these apartment buildings. Yeah. There's just so much going on constantly. And people going this way, that way that, like, it'd be so easy to get lost in the crowd. Right. Like, you would think a crowd would notice everything, but oftentimes, you get lost in the crowd. Yeah. And I can see how that would happen. And I think that's what happened just nobody saw who it was. And these two had their whole lives ahead of them. Yeah. And to think about the years that they missed out on is, I think, probably the hardest part. What they're what they're them. They talked a lot about talked a lot about that. Yeah. Really? Just thinking even if they are out there. Yeah. How how that would hurt to even to find that out? Because then it's thinking about the time that you've lost and how I'm gonna make that up and Yeah. One of the mothers talked about how she just would love if if one day they ever do return or one of them comes back to be able to just sit with them and talk and to just take a vacation and spend time together and just broke my heart. I mean, thinking of all the the time that It's just completely missed out on. And for with no explanation for why. Yeah. I mean It's a normal day. Yep. And your whole life changes like that. Yeah. Completely completely completely changed our role. I mean, all we can do is hold out hope and this is why it's so important to tell these cold case stories because you just never know. You never know who watches. You never know who's gonna come across this information. In age progression and think, wow. I didn't you you know Yeah. No. You just never know what could happen. Information and yeah, of course, we will have that all in our episode notes and description box as far as CUDA -- know anything or -- if you didn't know anything. Absolutely. We'll go ahead and wrap up today's episode there. Hopefully, you you found this episode of Malgar podcast as intriguing and and interesting as we did. Yeah. We'd appreciate it if you like and subscribe on YouTube and Apple Podcasts, but that is all we'll be back next week with another episode. Yes. A little bit of a lighter episode. This one was pretty intense. intense. It was. Definitely. Yeah. People maybe have some laughs. Yeah. That'd be great. I have a few more laughs around here. That'd be good. Well, we hope you guys are having a great day out there. That is it for us. People on taking their mind.