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1:51

It's October 27, 1983. You

1:54

know, every single thing that could be searched

1:56

was being searched. On Old Harbor Road in

1:59

Anchorage, Alaska. The family home of

2:01

Robert Hanson is being ripped apart

2:03

by detectives Maxine Farrell and the

2:05

Alaska State Troopers. They're

2:08

searching for anything that can connect

2:10

Hanson to the murders of two

2:12

dancers, Sherry Morrow and Paula Goulding.

2:15

I was just in the front room there and

2:18

I think I went into the bedroom and I

2:20

looked around in the bedroom, searched under the bed,

2:23

anything in the walls to see if

2:25

we can find anything. We know we're looking for jewelry

2:28

and they're looking for a weapon. I'm

2:33

Dr. Richard Ford and this is

2:35

Marine Devil Monster, the Butcher Baker.

2:37

Episode 5, What Don't You

2:39

Know? The

2:44

troopers were dividing the floor

2:47

space up by areas so

2:49

they could search for

2:51

floors, for fibers, for

2:54

hair samples, for stuff

2:56

like that. You're hearing patrol

2:58

cop Greg Baker. He'd already

3:01

searched Hanson's house once before while

3:03

investigating the rape and kidnapping of

3:05

17-year-old sex worker Cindy Paulson four

3:07

months earlier. But that

3:09

first search was very different from this

3:12

one. It was led by

3:14

Greg Superior who believed Hanson's story

3:16

of a money dispute with a

3:18

prostitute. I

3:21

remembered seeing a

3:23

Mini-14 which is

3:25

a Ruger semi-automatic

3:28

.223. That

3:32

wasn't pursued at the time. This

3:36

weapon Greg thinks he saw back then, the

3:38

Mini-14 .223 rifle, it's

3:41

since become crucial. .223 casings

3:44

have been found in the graves of the two murdered

3:46

dancers. I

3:49

want to know what author Leland Hale who wrote the book

3:51

Butcher Baker can tell us about this search. So

3:55

Leland, they're looking for the .223 rifle because that ties

3:57

Hanson to the murders. The

4:00

looking for anything else? They.

4:02

Knew one of the cases of

4:04

the dancers sorry Morrow that she

4:06

always had a particular necklace and

4:08

that necklace was not in the

4:10

grave site was not there so

4:12

that gives the possibility that it's

4:15

he may have kept it as

4:17

well as metals. Oh. This is

4:19

the same necklace that. Serious boyfriend told next

4:21

seen several about thrive and they do

4:23

find some stuff is an arresting they

4:26

find some flight maps. But.

4:28

They don't think much of those flight masters you

4:30

sing off. Scot. All

4:32

the sexes oddities or where he goes hunting

4:34

make sense is got a plain marked decrease.

4:37

Hunting spots are you can return to them

4:39

later on. And. They certainly found

4:41

a cache of weapons. But. They didn't

4:43

find either of the weapons they were

4:45

looking for, so that's really troubling. While.

4:49

Investigators are over at the house

4:51

for miles away at headquarters has

4:53

since himself as being interviewed by

4:56

Task force Leader glances the and

4:58

Sergeant Daryl gun. Yet here to

5:00

frustration is beginning to mount. Were

5:04

talked about. A lot of people have a

5:06

long period of these girls in line just

5:08

get into trouble and the all in their

5:10

own mind made up the same story. No,

5:15

No, No, I didn't. I understand

5:17

that. It's.

5:19

Five hours in and say it's lead

5:22

Hansen through his colorful past. And

5:24

let me just reminds you of the highlights now.

5:27

An arrest for rape and kidnapping of a

5:29

young sex worker. Nineteen Seventy One. Assault

5:32

with a deadly weapon on a real

5:34

estate secretary that same year. To.

5:36

Other possible kidnapping and rates between nineteen

5:38

seventy Two and Nineteen Seventy Five. And

5:41

the kidnapping of Black The answer, Christie

5:43

Hayes in Nineteen Seventy Nine. So

5:47

leland days take him through quite the

5:49

rap seat ha. It was massive

5:51

of because they wanted to leave him up to

5:53

the present moment. And. It's time he

5:55

has given them the same old story. money

5:58

dispute with the sex worker. The

6:00

same worth noting about to set

6:02

of one they caught. A new

6:04

set in Law hasn't had this

6:07

tendency to want to be cooperative

6:09

unhelpful, and so he voluntarily said

6:11

i'll talk about take. The.

6:14

Second thing was say have

6:16

their hands somewhat tied behind

6:18

their back because hands had

6:21

an attorney for that Cindy

6:23

Paulson case. So they couldn't

6:25

talk about the Cindy Paulson

6:27

case without going through as

6:29

of turn. So. That most recent

6:31

case for the have the most residents they

6:34

pinned. Him to right. We'll

6:37

see. The lead investigator has rarely talked

6:39

about this case in the last. Forty

6:41

years, but we have transcripts as

6:43

an interview he did behind closed.

6:45

Doors and Nineteen Eighty Four. Death never been

6:47

heard in public. Before. And.

6:49

Will she says gifts to So much

6:51

insight into how he south A key

6:54

points during this case. Here

6:56

we've used it actor to voice his words

6:58

as he talks about the restrictions placed on

7:00

the interview with Robert Hanssen. We.

7:04

Weren't allowed to talk about it at all. Because.

7:06

Kid got an attorney for the Paulson

7:09

case. We'd. Have to

7:11

go to that attorney first. So during the

7:13

whole interview, that was the link between the

7:15

present and the past and we were not

7:18

allowed to discuss that like. A Miami.

7:20

We couldn't look at him right the face and say

7:22

we know your the killer. Violence.

7:25

Tell The Truth. I

7:29

think it's a problem. Well you

7:31

know what I mean. I said

7:33

I made in China to prosecute

7:35

northeast mechanized He said he was

7:37

a different. Story

7:40

here it is. no. You

7:43

if. You lie and to be. Super.

7:47

We'll we'll all be sweetest. when

7:50

i was listening to this interview

7:52

leland it's interesting because it kind

7:54

of reaches the psych stalemate they're

7:56

also at the beginning is as

7:58

nice as pie getting Hansen to open

8:01

up about his childhood and trying to pretend he's

8:03

on his side, but then

8:05

toward the end he's just totally

8:08

changed. He's hammering him and Hansen's

8:10

getting quieter and quieter. But

8:13

they can't make that next

8:15

leap. They felt like they were interviewing him

8:17

with one hand tied behind their back. He's

8:22

treating me like I'm some kind

8:24

of a moron city. Are you? And I'd like to think

8:26

that I'm smarter than that. I'm not saying

8:28

you're a moron. Are

8:31

you saying that? Did

8:34

I believe what those girls said? Uh,

8:36

sir, I think I

8:38

want to get clarified in my mind.

8:40

I would, I think I

8:42

better, because this is serious as hell.

8:44

Sure it is. Uh, I think I would

8:46

like to talk to an attorney and

8:49

get him to tell me it's

8:52

all right to talk to you about some back

8:54

passing. Sure. I did do that. We

8:58

shall see. Okay, the time

9:00

is now 1 56. Discontinued

9:02

to take course of the interview. Mr. Hansen has

9:04

asked for an entry. I

9:09

didn't do that. Hansen says, we

9:12

shall see. Daryl Galleon replies. Right

9:15

after this tape stops, that's when

9:18

Glenn Flosie arrests Hansen. It wasn't

9:20

on the spot arrest. We got

9:22

him on insurance fraud, got him on 10

9:25

burglaries, filed on three, and

9:27

we got him on all the Paulson charges. He

9:29

was indicted on all this, but

9:32

none of the murders. You

9:34

heard right. At this point, they didn't

9:37

charge him with murder. And that's because it's

9:39

3pm in the afternoon on the 27th of

9:42

October and they are still mid

9:44

search at his house and

9:46

they haven't found anything to incriminate him

9:48

in the murders. A Sherry Moro and

9:50

Paul and Gould. So let's

9:52

go back to old harbor road. The

9:55

light is starting to fade on this fall afternoon.

9:58

We're going to pick up an Alaska state. trooper

10:00

who's part of the search, a

10:02

Lieutenant Pat Kasnek. Our team spoke

10:04

with him in 2020. I

10:06

came to the residence

10:08

in the evening, probably around

10:11

six o'clock. And the search

10:13

had been being conducted pretty

10:16

much all day. And they hadn't

10:18

found the key evidence that they

10:20

were looking for. And the only

10:23

place that had not been searched was

10:25

the attic. This is

10:27

the scene addict Greg Baker saw a ladder

10:30

next to during the Cindy Paulson search.

10:32

At the time, his superior wasn't

10:35

interested. I actually

10:37

asked the investigator who wanted to

10:39

climb up and look. I

10:41

mean, an addict is a very

10:43

common place to hide things, you know. And

10:46

he said, Oh, he says, Mr. Hanson has

10:48

been cooperative enough, there's no sense to push

10:50

him. But now

10:52

four months later, it's their last chance.

10:56

I mean, that was our one shot to get

10:58

in there and see what we could find to

11:01

make the connection between Hanson and these victims. It

11:03

was so important. I mean, so there was a

11:05

lot of pressure. The

11:07

attic runs the entire length of the house 1800 square

11:11

feet of ceiling beams and thick

11:13

green insulation. It's

11:15

not packed with stuff like many attics,

11:17

but it's dusty and unpleasant. As

11:21

you move through it, you're kicking out

11:23

remnants of the insulation and the dust.

11:26

As best I recall, I had

11:29

gone down maybe 10 or

11:31

12 rows of the insulation where

11:33

the ceiling joists were. And

11:36

they were just lying there. The

11:39

mini 14 was one of

11:42

those rifles in there. There was also a 357

11:44

handgun. That weapon

11:47

had been identified by Cindy

11:49

Paulson. Bingo, but as

11:51

of yet, no cigar. There's still

11:53

the rest of the massive attic

11:55

to search. We

11:58

were getting close to being done with this. search

12:00

and I was right around the opening

12:03

where you come up into the attic and

12:06

hold back some of the

12:08

insulation and there was a plastic bag

12:10

there with jewelry in it. And

12:13

it was kind of sent

12:15

a shell up my spine because I knew

12:17

immediately this is going

12:19

to be really important. One

12:22

of them was an arrowhead necklace.

12:26

Detective Maxine Farrell He shouted, I've

12:28

got it. So everybody

12:30

was rushing and we got the jewelry and

12:33

we kind of glazed at it and yes, that's the jewelry.

12:36

What's the feeling at the moment? The

12:38

main thing was a necklace. There's a necklace

12:40

in there that's what I was looking for.

12:42

I was elated that

12:44

this was the jewelry, this was the man,

12:46

we have the right man. Glen

12:52

Flothy sends the .223 Mini-14 rifle

12:54

to the FBI for ballistics testing

12:56

to see if the shells found

12:58

in the graves of Sheri Morrow

13:00

and Paula Goulding came from this

13:02

weapon. So

13:05

Leland, there's a fantastic little snafu

13:07

here isn't there? The

13:09

rifle actually gets lost in the

13:12

mail for a while. You

13:14

imagine that, right? This is the weapon that

13:16

we need to target him. Poor

13:18

Glen Flothy. This crucial piece of

13:20

evidence tying Hanson to the murders

13:22

is, surprise, surprise, lost to

13:25

the United States Postal Service. Turns

13:28

out it was on some shipping dock somewhere and

13:30

they found it and then they were

13:32

able to get the match. So they

13:34

did match the casings from the graves to

13:36

Hanson's rifle. Yes, they have

13:39

his weapon and they have shell casings.

13:41

But you know, it's not like they

13:44

don't have it. If

13:47

you're anything like me, you are

13:49

screaming right now. What? How

13:51

do they not have him? And

13:53

I get you, but let's go

13:55

into that for a second because

13:57

Flothy still doesn't file murder charges. against

14:00

Hanson, and here he explains why.

14:30

Glenn Slovey, the measured professorial

14:32

non-cop like cop, but his

14:34

play here is genius for

14:36

a number of reasons. One

14:39

of which is that as soon as he

14:41

charges Hanson with murder, he then has to

14:43

hand over all his evidence to the defense,

14:45

and he doesn't want to hand over any

14:47

withholds. On that note, I think it's

14:50

time for you to meet Hanson's defense attorney. This

14:53

is Joe Evans. I've practiced

14:55

law in Alaska and Washington

14:58

state for

15:00

47 years now, and very quickly

15:02

got involved in practicing

15:05

in the villages in Northwest

15:07

Alaska. And

15:10

I quite frankly have found

15:12

it very rewarding to

15:15

work with the Yup'ik and Athabaskan

15:17

people. Joe

15:19

is a city attorney out in the

15:21

native villages of Alaska, and this is

15:23

his passion. He spends weeks

15:26

without internet connection trying to make things

15:28

better for the community up there. Along

15:30

with his colleague Fred Dewey, Joe

15:33

met Hanson when he was originally arrested for

15:35

the rape and kidnapping of Cindy Paulson in

15:37

June, 1983. I

15:39

recall Fred coming in to me

15:42

and talking about his first meeting

15:44

with Robert Hanson, and I

15:46

asked Fred, what do you think? Because

15:49

you obviously have got to make some credibility

15:51

assessment for your client, and Fred said, well,

15:53

I think I believe him. He

15:56

impressed me as a quiet, somewhat

15:58

meek, person very

16:01

well spoken. His explanation

16:03

was that it was

16:05

a business transaction with a prostitute. He

16:08

paid her x dollars and

16:10

then she wanted more money and

16:13

they had a fight about it. You know, I

16:15

have to admit it

16:17

sounded the part to me that

16:19

I didn't understand is why is

16:21

she running naked down

16:24

4th 5th Avenue

16:26

near Merrill Field. But again,

16:28

that's not my job as a criminal defense

16:30

attorney. My job is to listen to

16:32

my client, do the best

16:34

I can to present him in a

16:37

light that will get law enforcement focus

16:39

off of him. I guess I'm

16:41

just really interested in the fact that you

16:44

and Fred felt he was credible. Why do

16:46

you think that was? Was it his demeanor

16:48

or the fact that he had a family?

16:51

It's really a mixture of all of those things. He was,

16:54

he ran a bake shop down on, I

16:56

think it was H Street. I think

16:58

he had, was it two children?

17:02

A son and a daughter. He lived

17:04

in a fairly modest home

17:08

and frankly, when you combined

17:10

all of those things, it

17:12

sure seemed to me that the sort of

17:15

activities initially that they were

17:17

wanted to investigate him

17:19

for seemed a little bit far

17:22

fetched. He seemed respectable to you.

17:24

Yes. There

17:26

is that word again, respectability.

17:29

It's starting to feel like code for the

17:31

assumption that someone is truthful because of their

17:33

status. But I'm not picking

17:35

on Joe here. If we're all honest with

17:37

ourselves, don't we all do this? Don't

17:40

we all make this assumption? So

17:42

then four months later in October,

17:44

Hanson contacts you again. And this

17:47

is after his house has been searched and after

17:49

he's been arrested by Glenn Flosse. I

17:51

actually heard from

17:53

him that he had been arrested. And

17:56

as I recall, initially, because that's

17:59

what the police. were talking about that

18:01

was the Cindy Paulson matter. And

18:03

then Fred, he said, I think there's more

18:06

to it than that. And we really didn't

18:08

know what the more to it was until

18:10

I saw the return of the search warrant.

18:12

The officers have to list what

18:15

they seized during the search. And

18:17

of course they listed not only weapons but

18:21

they listed maps, pieces

18:24

of jewelry, newspaper clippings, ID

18:27

cards. It was clear

18:29

that this is more than just the Cindy

18:31

Paulson kidnapping and sexual

18:34

assault. Was that the moment where

18:36

you were like, whoa, this is a much bigger

18:39

deal than I ever thought. I'm now

18:41

involved with something incredibly complicated.

18:44

This was certainly my first oh

18:47

shit moment but my shut

18:49

the fuck up moment came later. Remember

18:52

that because that shut the fuck up

18:54

moment is right around the corner for

18:57

us too. In the meantime Joe

18:59

and Fred can only work with the charges

19:01

Hanson is under and as

19:03

of yet these don't include murder. So as

19:06

they wrestle with a defense against they're

19:08

not sure what, lead investigator Glenn

19:10

Flothy continues to build his case.

19:13

Up until that time it was go go go a mile

19:16

a minute mile a minute push push push push

19:18

12 hours a day seven days a week scamming

19:20

the DA is trying to do this trying to

19:22

do that trying to pitch a

19:24

hat and cane song and dance and the

19:27

whole routine and finally I sat

19:29

down with Pat. That's Pat Dugan

19:31

the assistant DA who put together the

19:33

search warrant with Flothy. They're

19:36

sitting in Glenn's office going over the evidence

19:38

from Hanson's house and

19:40

Flothy pulls out the flight maps. Those

19:42

handwritten X's dotted across the surface.

19:46

I think then is when it finally hit me when I

19:48

was sitting there talking to Pat I

19:50

sort of got a cold chill and it was

19:52

very quiet. I

19:55

started pulling cases and the first one

19:57

I pulled that was up on the wall was this

19:59

Joanna Messina. Joanna

20:01

Messina was a woman who went missing in Seward in

20:03

1980. Her body

20:06

was found in July of the same year. But

20:09

Seward is a several hours drive from Anchorage, so

20:11

there's no official connection between her case

20:14

and the case of Sheri Morrow and Paula

20:16

Goulding. But on Hanson's

20:18

flight map, there's marks in and

20:20

around Seward. The investigator

20:22

on that case was one Chuck Miller. I

20:25

laid this map down on the table, and

20:28

I called the investigator over and I says, Chuck,

20:30

why don't you show me where Joanna was buried?

20:33

Because I didn't know. I

20:35

mean, I knew generally the area, but I didn't

20:38

know specifically the area. Chuck

20:41

Miller walks over and looks at the map, and

20:43

he says, okay, now here's Seward, and here's the

20:45

railroad tracks, and up here, and oh, you've already

20:47

got it marked. There's

20:51

an X right there. I told Chuck, I

20:53

says, well, I

20:55

didn't mark that, Chuck. Robert Hanson did, because,

20:57

you see, that's his map that

20:59

we got out of his house. At

21:02

that point, we realized that we

21:04

had an X on there from Joanna Messina,

21:07

at Klutina Annie, Sheri Morrow, and

21:10

Paula Goulding. It was,

21:13

oh, my God, what has this man done? There

21:16

are 22 X's on

21:18

Hanson's map. Ryan

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23:57

You find the maps and you think now there can't

23:59

be. There are 22 bodies

24:01

out there. These are favorite hunting spots.

24:04

You try to give yourself more reasons why

24:06

it can't be than

24:09

why it can. It

24:11

just seems almost grotesque to think that

24:13

these maps represent bodies.

24:16

It's early 1984 in the

24:18

Alaska State Trooper office in

24:20

Anchorage. Lead Investigator Glenn Flothi

24:22

believes maps recovered from Robert

24:25

Hanson's house show the location

24:27

of up to 22 dead

24:29

bodies, four of which have

24:31

already been recovered. His voice

24:33

here is read by an actor. We've

24:35

got these X's, these bodies already found, and

24:38

we feel that the bodies already found verify

24:40

the map's authenticity as to grave sites. That's

24:43

what they represent. So at that

24:45

point, we wanted to put more pressure on

24:47

Hanson. See, when we first got the search

24:49

warrant, the only guns we were allowed to

24:51

seize was the Magnum

24:54

use in the Paulson case. And a

24:56

.223 used on Golding and Morrow. We

25:00

didn't think we could justify seizing all the

25:02

weapons at his house. And

25:05

he had like 35 guns. It

25:07

could be any one of those weapons that were

25:09

used to kill any number of the victims over

25:12

a 10 year period. So we put together another

25:14

search warrant, went to the judge. We

25:18

told him the reason we wanted to search for

25:20

the guns now is because Hanson could have called

25:22

anybody else, go in the house and remove all

25:24

the weapons. And come springtime, Your

25:26

Honor, now we won't have

25:29

these weapons to compare with the bodies we expect to

25:31

find. We're telling the judge we have

25:33

a serial murderer that's killed up

25:35

to at least a minimum of 22 people. That's

25:38

a pretty big supposition. The

25:41

judge approves the warrant. And

25:43

I want to share something with you here that I

25:45

think tells us so much about how high the stakes

25:48

are at this point. We have a

25:50

document from the Alaska State Troopers that is

25:52

a dated sequence of events in this case.

25:55

It's typed over 18 pages

25:58

and here on January 13th. 1984,

26:00

the day Glenn Flothy goes to

26:03

court. I can see it's already 1.40 pm

26:06

when he approaches the DA's office to request

26:08

a warrant. They put in front

26:10

of the judge at 4.05 pm and at 7.28 pm the

26:12

same night Flothy

26:16

and three of his colleagues served the warrant

26:18

at Hanson's house. We

26:21

went back and ceased all his

26:23

ammunition. His ammunition reloading dies, his

26:25

guns, rifles, and shotguns, handguns,

26:28

and pistols, and ceased all that

26:30

stuff. Ready to go? And

26:33

guess who got a copy of it the next

26:35

day? Robert Hanson did. Through his

26:38

attorney he'd been advised that the

26:40

search warrant had been served and now the police

26:42

have the maps. They know what

26:44

they represent because right

26:46

in the search warrant it spells out why

26:49

they'd be doing it because

26:51

they know there's bodies at each of those locations.

26:53

So I think that that was

26:55

the turning point. He realized that we

26:58

weren't dummies. That's my impression

27:00

of when I think he truly believed

27:02

that we meant business, that

27:05

we had our shit together. As

27:07

the pressure mounts on Hanson, the trial date

27:09

for the rape and kidnapping of Cindy Paulson

27:11

is set for just a month away. Well

27:15

now Hanson, this is going to be

27:17

his first major trial, you realize. Looking

27:20

back he'd never gone to trial on

27:23

any of these cases and

27:25

we're ready and

27:28

then Cindy disappeared on us. Cindy

27:32

Paulson. Flothy hasn't

27:34

yet filed murder charges. Instead Hanson

27:36

is going to trial for the

27:38

kidnapping and rape of the 17-year-old

27:40

sex worker just months before. But

27:43

now Flothy's key witness, the crucial

27:45

piece of the puzzle for convicting

27:47

Hanson, has gone AWOL

27:50

overnight. The document

27:52

from the Alaska State Troopers reads 3rd

27:54

of February 1984. Cindy

27:57

Paulson moves out from Gentleman's Retreat Massage

27:59

Park. doesn't advise Sergeant

28:01

Flothy. Author, Leven

28:03

Hale. You know, they're

28:06

getting reports that she's really strung out

28:08

on cocaine and she's looking raggedy and

28:10

she's lost weight. I remember Flothy

28:12

talked about wanting to wean her off her

28:14

pimp so that he became

28:16

her support system. And I guess

28:18

the question is, at this point, did he fail in doing that?

28:21

So it's this very delicate

28:23

walk the line, and he knew

28:25

he couldn't force her to do

28:27

anything. And this is exactly how

28:29

Glenn Flothy describes it. I

28:32

could have gone and snatched her up, set her

28:34

up, arrested her, and you know, any number

28:36

of things. I had to let

28:38

her live her life, her lifestyle, and

28:41

let her decide when the time was right. Because

28:44

she trusted me. To call me

28:46

to say, Glenn, I need your help. I've had enough. The

28:49

sparse words used on the Alaska

28:51

State Troopers document belie a frantic

28:53

week as Flothy and his colleagues

28:55

attempt to find her. Quote,

28:58

unable to locate Cindy Paulson, Cindy's

29:01

whereabouts unknown. Witness

29:03

Cindy Paulson's location is unknown. Unquote.

29:07

Then, with just two weeks to go until

29:09

the trial, a call comes in. Part

29:14

of his approach with Cindy called

29:18

me any time, and she had

29:20

his home phone number. And

29:23

in fact, it wasn't just Glenn Flothy

29:26

who was on the line. It was his wife. So

29:29

his wife also played a role.

29:32

So, you know, ultimately she trusted him

29:34

enough to say, look, you've got to come get me

29:36

out of here. So he

29:38

remembers going there. He's got back

29:40

up. He takes her out,

29:42

and the pimp comes down and kind of

29:44

looks at her. And Flothy says, she's coming

29:46

with me, you know. And

29:49

off she goes. And at this

29:51

point now, Flothy, he set up

29:53

this sort of alternate living arrangement

29:55

where she's living with this family,

29:57

you know, when she's cooking and

29:59

cleaning. and all this stuff. Christian

30:01

family. Turns out they go to the

30:04

same church that Darla Hanson goes to.

30:06

There's just no escape here. It's

30:09

a small place, right? We've

30:12

got a witness off the street and

30:14

ready to testify. And at

30:16

that point, everything came to sort

30:18

of a screeching halt. There was

30:21

nothing from the defense. Up until

30:23

that time, they're

30:25

demanding to see the witness, demanding this and demanding

30:28

that, trying to throw this out. And they're supposed

30:30

to come over and view the evidence at the

30:32

trooper office and they

30:34

schedule it twice. And both times

30:36

they don't show up. Supposed to do

30:38

the interview with Cindy Paulson, right? They've

30:41

been harping about and all

30:43

of a sudden there's nothing from them wanting

30:45

to do the interview. Joe,

30:48

on the defense side, what's going on?

30:51

I believe Hanson contacted us the next week and

30:53

said he wanted to speak to us and we

30:56

went out and spoke to him.

30:58

And Hanson, he's in jail at this time. That's

31:01

right. The only thing I remember is he wanted

31:03

to clear the decks or he

31:05

wanted to explain things. Hanson

31:07

asked you to get in touch with the DA's office

31:10

to arrange a meeting. What do you think

31:12

prompted Robert Hanson to do that? I

31:14

think I told Robert, using an expression,

31:16

the jig is up. They

31:19

have found in your home

31:21

direct evidence of your involvement

31:24

with at least four, if not

31:26

five, women that have been murdered.

31:29

So at this point, Robert,

31:31

your ability to bargain is

31:33

fairly limited. But my

31:36

concern and I expressed it to him. I said,

31:39

Robert, I'm not sure that that's in your

31:41

best interest now to go

31:43

into an interview with the district attorney

31:46

because one, it's going to be very

31:48

long and two, they're

31:51

not your friends. They're looking to try

31:53

and charge you with as many

31:55

possible offenses, crimes,

31:58

murders as possible. and

32:00

that's not in your best interest. And

32:03

he didn't get upset or angry with us. He just

32:05

said, I understand that. I

32:08

understand that this could not be in my

32:10

best interest, but I want to do it.

32:13

And we said, well, if you want to do it, you're

32:15

the client. So

32:17

before we go on, you need to meet someone else.

32:20

Until now, I've told you all

32:22

about how Flothy is still building

32:24

his case. And that's true. He

32:26

is instrumental in this pretrial period.

32:29

But he's not a lawyer. So the

32:31

guy who's brought in to prosecute for

32:34

the state and work alongside Flothy is

32:36

assistant DA Frank Rothschild. The

32:38

Mind of a Monster team spoke to Frank in 2020. The

32:41

message to Robert Hanson was, you're

32:44

not catching any break. He knew

32:46

we found the map. He knew

32:49

the guns we'd seized and what

32:51

they were going to tell us. He

32:54

knew that at some

32:56

point, we were going to go

32:59

out into the wilderness where all these exes were

33:01

with a team of dogs, and we

33:03

were going to find more grave sites. He knew that the

33:05

game was up. So

33:09

now what? And the answer

33:11

is, the phone call that I get from

33:14

his lawyer, Joe Evans, who says he wants

33:17

to come in and talk with you folks. And

33:19

he has certain rules and requirements

33:22

in order to do this. So

33:44

I discussed that with the

33:46

higher-ups in the office, and we all realized, that's

33:49

easy. We can do all of

33:51

that. That's going to stay the state of Alaska

33:54

years and years and years of

33:56

prosecutions of millions

33:58

of dollars. of appeals, you

34:01

name it, all of a

34:03

sudden, boom, it's all going to be done.

34:05

One, two, three. And

34:07

Leland, this fits right in with his behavior,

34:09

doesn't it? It does. Because we already know

34:11

that when he was faced with the arson

34:13

in Iowa in 1961, he coped

34:17

a plea. In 1971, for the assault

34:19

with a deadly weapon on the real

34:21

estate secretary, he also coped a plea.

34:23

And in 1975, for the

34:25

theft of a chainsaw, surprise,

34:27

surprise, he copped a plea. There's

34:29

this sense of him

34:31

not wanting to get dragged through

34:34

a trial because a lot of evidence

34:37

comes up at trial. A lot

34:39

of accusations come up at trial. And

34:42

I'm almost wondering if we're seeing

34:44

that wimpy kid come out again. It reminds

34:47

me of that intense embarrassment he would

34:49

report feeling and he would go and

34:52

hide and cry because he stuttered. And

34:54

it's almost an obsession with how

34:56

he felt he was so made fun of as a

34:58

teenager. He doesn't want

35:00

to face anything. His stuttering and

35:03

all that stuff is

35:05

definitely a part of how he reacts

35:07

to these criminal charges, because there's a

35:10

lot of embarrassment that's going to come

35:12

out of that, of any of these

35:14

cases. Hanson uses

35:16

the weekend before the interview to talk

35:18

to his pastor. When

35:21

the Mind of a Monster team spoke

35:23

to this pastor in 2020, he said

35:25

that Hanson asked him what kind of

35:27

sins God forgives. The

35:29

pastor replies all manners of sins

35:32

except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

35:35

Hanson said, that's all I wanted

35:37

to know. I think

35:39

whatever your religion, just the

35:41

thought of this, that serial

35:43

murder isn't as bad as blasphemy

35:46

against the Holy Spirit is

35:49

challenging to say the least. But

35:51

if Hanson is anything, he's consistent. This

35:54

has the distinct ring of copying the ultimate

35:57

plea deal. It's

36:00

the 22nd of February 1984. The

36:04

prosecution and the defense, along with

36:06

Robert Hanson, Glenn Flotsey, and Sergeant

36:08

Lyle Housman file into a conference

36:10

room at the DA's office. Are

36:14

we on record? Yes, we are. This

36:19

is Frank Rothschild. Sergeant, what time is it now?

36:22

8.50 a.m. I

36:25

insisted that there be two tape recorders. We

36:27

had two big reel-to-reel tape recorders because we

36:29

didn't want to lose whatever it is he

36:31

said to us. Here

36:35

in the district attorney conference room,

36:37

along with Mr. Robert Hanson, his

36:39

counsel, Joe Evans, and Fred

36:41

Dewey, Victor Crum, the district

36:43

attorney, is present, along with Sargents

36:45

Housman and Flotsey. We wanted

36:47

not only for confession, we

36:50

wanted information where we could find bodies,

36:52

how many bodies were there. We wanted

36:54

to know what were they wearing. Did

36:56

they say where they were from? Did

36:59

you get any names? Well,

37:01

there was a lot of information that

37:03

we were seeking. I was the good

37:05

cop. I was the guy

37:07

who was going to just be friendly

37:09

and nice, not be judgmental, get

37:12

him to spill the beans, if you will.

37:15

I'm wondering if counsel had anything that

37:17

you wanted to say before we began. I

37:20

don't think so. I think we've had an

37:23

opportunity in the last few days to meet

37:25

with Mr. Hanson. So

37:27

I believe at this point we're ready to

37:29

go forward. All right. Well,

37:31

why don't we start then with

37:34

what will be freshest and bottom,

37:36

which is the cases that are

37:38

pending now and from what happened in

37:42

June of last year. Can

37:44

you tell us how that all came about? You

37:50

want me to start when I first

37:52

met to Cindy Carlson first time?

37:56

At this point, I want to make it clear

37:58

to you that Defense Attorney Joe Evans who

38:00

we just heard there talking about his meetings with

38:02

Hanson, he's expecting Hanson to

38:05

admit to the Cindy Paulson kidnap and

38:07

rape. He's also expecting Hanson

38:09

to admit to the four murders they have

38:11

evidence on. That is

38:13

the unidentified body, Deb de Clunah

38:15

Annie, Joanna Messina from Seward, and

38:17

the two Canick River Bodies, Sheri Morrow

38:20

and Paula Goulding. And

38:22

the prosecution is expecting the same, because

38:24

from the search warrants and the legal documents around the case,

38:28

there's an understanding between the two sides that

38:30

there is enough evidence to prosecute those

38:32

murders. So they move on from

38:34

Cindy Paulson to the case of a Clunah

38:36

Annie. The first gal

38:40

is a gal that I

38:42

think was found by some

38:45

power line employees or something

38:47

in this effect they found up here by

38:49

a Clunah. A Clunah

38:51

Annie is the unidentified woman recovered by

38:54

Detective Maxine Farrell in 1980. And

38:57

what you're about to hear is what happened to

38:59

her, according to Hanson. And let's

39:01

be honest, his is the only side

39:03

of the story anyone will ever hear.

39:07

How was she killed? Tell

39:14

me what happened with that. The gentleman

39:16

I can't remember if I picked her up, as

39:18

a dancer or if she was a

39:20

prostitute uptown. I just pointed down

39:22

and said, now look, if you

39:25

do exactly what I tell you, and

39:27

don't give me any problems whatsoever, there's

39:31

going to be no, you won't get hurt anywhere

39:33

shape or form. I promise

39:35

you that. But then

39:37

Hanson's truck gets stuck. He tells

39:39

this woman, the woman who will become a

39:41

Clunah Annie, to get out and help him. I

39:45

told her to get out and so forth, and

39:47

I tried to get the truck back a little bit further so I could

39:50

get the hell out of her. And

39:54

as I was starting to

39:56

drive the truck back, she started

39:59

to get hurt. and walking down this way. And

40:01

I started walking across and down the

40:04

road. And I remember

40:06

I slammed the thing and gear there and

40:11

shot the key and ran after

40:13

it. And I caught up with her. I grabbed her

40:15

in the hair or whatever. She

40:18

had a big knife in her purse. I

40:20

grabbed her hands and I ripped

40:22

me shot in the ring. I tripped her down.

40:24

We got the hot out and she started

40:27

screaming at me and all that, don't kill me,

40:29

don't kill me. I said, I'm not going to

40:31

kill you. Then thing just got out

40:33

of hand. I can remember

40:35

I was, she was

40:37

laying face down and

40:40

I just

40:42

stuck her. Where? The

40:45

back. And I'm not

40:47

trying to justify it. I don't know what's wrong.

40:49

I'm totally wrong. But any

40:51

girl that I was ever with like this is

40:54

one that agreed

40:56

to meet with me for mine

40:59

for sex. They

41:02

ask if he remembers her name. Hanson

41:05

doesn't. He doesn't

41:07

remember most of their names. Trying

41:10

to maintain that calm and

41:14

that non-reaction to horrific

41:17

stories. That

41:21

was hard. That was

41:23

really hard. And he didn't

41:25

have any emotion. I

41:28

made clear that I wasn't expressing any

41:30

emotion. It would be like, oh,

41:32

well, gee, Bob, now that you've told us about

41:35

how you killed this woman and buried her, what

41:37

was the next woman? And I would just be, you

41:39

know, what was next? How'd the next one go, Bob?

41:42

That's what it felt like. Joe,

41:44

your Hanson's defense attorney, what was

41:46

it like hearing him talk about

41:48

the murders? The more it

41:51

became clear that the original story he had

41:53

told us, he had

41:55

left out a lot of detail. I mean, here's

41:57

the guy who's sitting there and you've... the

42:00

transcripts almost matter-of-factly talking

42:03

about what he did to these

42:07

women and whether

42:09

they were prostitutes or whatever

42:11

makes no freaking difference but

42:14

the way he talked about what he did

42:16

to them was almost like the conversation you

42:18

and I are having just an everyday conversation

42:20

about what he did and how he planned

42:22

it and so forth and so on. After

42:26

this first gal here something

42:28

about a cooking pom pom or a lot you

42:31

know I found myself after

42:34

a period of time back

42:37

up town looking again and

42:41

I said my god Bob but

42:45

god damn it doesn't just like I guess like

42:47

his mouth is drawing a fire or whatever light

42:49

I'm back again. Hanson calmly

42:51

and politely walks them through the four

42:53

murders they can tie him to using

42:56

evidence. He goes into

42:58

great detail but his story his

43:00

motivation remains the same almost

43:03

as if he's talking on repeat. This

43:06

is him talking about Sherry Morrow, the

43:08

young woman found with an ace bandage

43:11

wrapped completely around her head and

43:13

face. And

43:15

I showed her a firearm

43:18

told her what was going to happen told

43:20

her you know that she would not be hurt in

43:22

any way shape or form if she would just go

43:25

along with me then

43:27

all of a sudden she just turned turned

43:30

around and trying

43:32

to scratch me eyes and fight with me and

43:35

so forth and she started running

43:37

I caught her again and

43:42

I can't even remember how it happened but somehow or other uh

43:46

I know I was sitting on

43:48

my ass and

43:51

she was just

43:53

standing there screaming at me you know and

43:56

uh I just pointed the

43:58

gun up towards her and pulled her back. and pull the trigger.

44:03

He's trying to say it's all their fault. That's what

44:05

he's saying. Don't

44:08

blame me. They're the ones that brought

44:10

this on to themselves. Well, forget that.

44:13

That's ludicrous. He's

44:15

abducting people with the intention

44:18

of having sex with them, whether they want to or

44:20

not. And

44:22

if they don't want to, and they

44:25

resist, his response

44:28

is to kill him. Let's take five minutes to get

44:30

him. I'm going to go home. I'm sure everybody is tired.

44:32

Okay. That's a good idea. Let's go off record.

44:36

On day one, we

44:39

spent our time talking about the murders

44:41

that we knew of and getting

44:43

him to give the details of all of those.

44:46

And then on the second day, on Thursday, that's

44:51

when he told us basically,

44:56

that's it. That's all that

44:58

I've done. There are no more. Nothing

45:01

else to talk about. At the time he

45:03

says, that's it. We

45:06

knew that we had a map that

45:10

was found in his headboard with

45:12

over 20 Xs on it. And

45:16

we knew those weren't just

45:19

random Xs. Those

45:21

were places where he had left

45:24

women in the wild. So

45:29

I think that when he did that, I

45:32

did a, oh, come on, Bob, kind of a thing.

45:36

No, no, that's it. And

45:38

on cue, Vic Crumb sitting next

45:41

to me, he

45:43

pulled out that prosecutorial finger. I

45:45

think he stood up. Vic

45:48

Crumb, the district attorney and Frank Spas.

46:00

in your post-cooperation. We're

46:03

not convinced at this point that you've done that.

46:06

So far, my impression that you've given

46:08

us only

46:12

the evidence on the two victims that we know

46:14

for a fact are alive. I

46:16

know we're willing to come forward and testify as well

46:18

as the five victims that we found. But

46:21

you need to understand that

46:25

from your own flight charts that

46:28

we got at your house, your flight charts

46:31

that have little asterisks on it, include

46:37

the five places where

46:40

we found bodies. Come springtime,

46:43

we're not going to let this sit, and we're going to go

46:45

out there, and we're going to be looking for some more graves.

46:49

While that was happening, I

46:51

was focused right on Hanson's

46:53

face. And I saw the

46:55

hair on the back of his neck stand

46:57

up. And I saw

47:00

from all the way up, all

47:02

the way down, what I could see, the back of

47:04

his neck turned really bright red.

47:08

And his face changed.

47:11

And at

47:13

that moment, I saw

47:16

not Bob the baker. I

47:19

saw Bob the serial killer.

47:21

I saw who the man

47:23

was that had abducted and

47:26

killed and tortured all of

47:28

these women. There he was right across the

47:30

table from me. Remember that

47:33

shut the fuck up moment Joe Evans mentioned

47:35

earlier? This is it. And

47:37

I'm sitting here watching it because

47:39

it's hard to describe, Michelle.

47:42

I mean, the countenance on

47:44

his face, I mean, it truly,

47:47

it changed from almost this casual,

47:50

everyday look to, I

47:53

don't know, something out of a horror movie

47:55

because his eyes got big, his voice

47:58

changed. things

48:00

that came to my mind is that this is

48:02

the exorcist. Can you talk to me

48:04

a little bit about how you

48:06

felt at that moment? I wasn't scared I

48:08

mean I was

48:10

scared for 13 months when I was in Vietnam I

48:13

mean that was true fear. It didn't

48:15

bring about fear. It did

48:18

bring my god what's what

48:21

don't we know? Next time

48:25

on Mind of a Monster the Butcher Baker.

48:27

I'm yelling at him I'm

48:30

saying what I mean I'm using the effort

48:32

I said what the fuck's going on? Mind

48:36

of a Monster the Butcher Baker is

48:38

produced by Arrow Media for ID. The

48:40

executive producer for ID is

48:42

Jessica Lauter. Arrow Media's

48:45

producer is Jess Leindevere. Editor

48:48

Millie Taqner. Audio engineering

48:50

by Mahoney Audio Post. Our

48:53

line producer is Philippa Whittle.

48:55

Our production manager is Alexandra

48:57

Kelly. Our junior production manager

48:59

is Jodi Tanner-Wilde. Our

49:01

production coordinator is Shannon Tunicliffe. Our

49:04

archive producer is Katya Lombe. And

49:07

our assistant producer is Isabel Wilson.

49:09

Glenn Flothie voiceover by Mike

49:11

Bodie. Arrow Media's series

49:13

producer is Gabrielle Nash. And

49:15

executive producer is Stuart Pender.

49:17

I'm your host Dr. Michelle Ward. You

49:20

can follow this series wherever you get your

49:22

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