0:00

Hey there, it's Hunter and welcome to Throwback

0:02

Thursday. Most Thursdays we are going

0:04

to re-release one of my favorite episodes from the

0:06

archives. So unless you're a long time listener

0:08

of the show, there's a good chance you

0:10

haven't heard this one yet. And even if

0:12

you had, chances are that you are going

0:14

to get something new listening to it this

0:16

time around. We can

0:18

have a positive goal of

0:21

increasing their time spent in these activities

0:23

that we have known for decades and

0:25

decades of research are really good for kids.

0:28

And then if they have sufficient

0:30

time in those categories of

0:32

activities, then we

0:35

can worry a little less about the screen time. You're

0:39

listening to the Mindful Mama podcast, episode

0:42

number 274. Today

0:45

we're talking about why we should

0:47

delay kids' screen time with Dr.

0:49

Megan Owens. Welcome

0:55

to the Mindful Parenting podcast. Here

0:57

it's about becoming a less irritable,

0:59

more joyful parent. At Mindful

1:01

Parenting, we know that you cannot give what

1:03

you do not have, and when you have

1:05

calm and peace within, then you can give

1:07

it to your children. I'm your

1:09

host, Hunter Clark Fields. I help smart,

1:12

thoughtful parents stay calm so they can

1:14

have strong, connected relationships with their children.

1:17

I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm

1:20

the creator of the Mindful Parenting course,

1:22

and I'm the author of the international

1:24

bestseller Raising Good Humans, and now

1:26

Raising Good Humans Every Day. 50

1:29

Simple Ways to Press Pause, Stay Present, and

1:31

Connect with Your Kids. Welcome

1:36

back to the Mindful Mama podcast, my

1:38

friend. I'm so glad you're here. I

1:40

know I always say that, but I

1:42

love this podcast and I love connecting

1:45

with you. If you're new,

1:47

this is an awesome episode, and if

1:49

you're returning, rock on. I'm so glad

1:52

that we get to connect each week.

1:54

It really makes a huge

1:56

difference in my life. In

1:58

just a moment, I'm... going to be

2:01

sitting down with Dr. Megan Owens,

2:03

and she's the author of the

2:05

book, Spoiled Right, Delaying Screens and

2:07

Giving Children What They Really Need.

2:09

And she's a parent, a psychologist,

2:11

and a university professor. I

2:14

think you're going to find this a

2:16

really fascinating and interesting conversation. We're

2:18

going to talk about why

2:20

screens should be avoided for

2:23

children under five and

2:25

how they're actually kind of necessary

2:27

to an extent for older kids,

2:29

really interesting, right? So there's a

2:31

big age difference in how we

2:34

should be treating screen time with

2:36

kids. So if you have

2:38

been looking for some clear guidance on

2:40

screen time, if you have kids under

2:43

five, or over five in fact,

2:45

I think you're going to get so much

2:47

out of this, you know, what

2:49

Dr. Owens saw in

2:51

her research and her psychology of how

2:54

kids are reacting to this, I think

2:56

this is incredibly valuable information. So I

2:58

want you to listen for some important takeaways.

3:02

Some of the negative effects of screen

3:04

time actually have nothing to

3:06

do with the screen itself. She's

3:08

going to share five really important

3:10

activities for children that support a

3:12

better relationship with screen time. And

3:14

for old kids, the teens with

3:16

the best mental well-being have a

3:18

moderate amount of screen time. So

3:21

this is going to be a

3:23

very valuable episode for you. Come

3:26

join me at the table as

3:28

I talk to Dr. Megan Owens.

3:32

Megan, thank you so much for coming on

3:34

the Mindful Mama podcast. Thank you

3:37

so much for having me. I'm

3:39

so excited to talk to you about

3:42

your book, Spoiled

3:44

Right, you're definitely,

3:46

this is the perfect time to

3:48

be talking about screens

3:51

and kids and all of that

3:53

with the pandemic. Can

3:56

you just indulge me a little bit and just tell me what you

3:58

just told me? Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

4:00

So I was just saying before

4:02

we started recording, because I can

4:05

never wait to start talking, but

4:07

before we started recording that, you know,

4:09

I have read about mindfulness and Buddhism

4:12

and sometimes even meditated with my kids

4:14

using little apps for a

4:16

lot, 10, 15 years. And I have,

4:19

I'm embarrassed to admit, never

4:22

regularly meditated myself. Sort

4:25

of like a one off here or there, you know, like

4:27

a couple times a month would have been impressive for me.

4:30

And then Hunter, when I read your book, I think

4:32

because it, it's not just

4:34

intellectual, but encourages you to practice after every chapter.

4:36

And I kind of was one of those people

4:38

that was like, I'm just going to keep reading,

4:40

but I actually did practice too. And

4:43

so I started meditating regularly

4:45

when I first read your book, and

4:47

I never spent. And

4:49

so I'm so grateful for that. So

4:55

happy. And it's feeling pretty good, I

4:57

guess. Yeah. Yeah. I think the thing

4:59

for me about it is that it's

5:01

not, you know, I

5:03

don't stop meditating and something like groundbreaking happens.

5:05

Like I don't just walk into my day,

5:08

like, you know,

5:10

so, so peaceful, but it's like this, this build, I

5:12

think of it as like this rut in my

5:14

brain that I'm like building that I can get to

5:16

this like calm spice a little bit easier. And so

5:20

I don't know if other people

5:22

would notice a difference in

5:25

me, but I notice

5:27

a difference in myself.

5:30

This is so exciting. All right. Well, we'll

5:32

stop tooting the horn of my book and

5:34

we'll talk about your book. We can talk

5:37

about any book. Let's talk about all

5:39

the books. Yeah. So I'm

5:41

excited to talk to you about this because

5:43

you know, I, well,

5:46

a, because of the current conditions, but, but

5:49

also because I really appreciate

5:51

how you wrote in your book, like I'm

5:53

a therapist, a psychologist, a university professor and

5:55

a mother, and, and you can became those

5:57

things in that order. So you have

6:00

I had this background

6:04

about emotions, about psychology, about

6:06

teaching others about psychology, and

6:08

then you became a parent

6:11

and then you encountered

6:14

the screen time issue. So I would love it

6:16

if you could just take us back to that

6:19

story about your daughter's

6:22

challenges and how she responded to

6:24

some early screen time. Yeah,

6:26

yeah. So I

6:28

had that awareness, so I knew what

6:31

the American Academy of Pediatrics recommended and

6:33

I fully intended to do what they

6:35

recommended, but I didn't really understand it

6:37

maybe on a personal basis. And

6:40

then my first daughter is, she

6:42

still is a very sensitive child

6:44

and wicked smart, like too smart

6:46

for her own good. Are you

6:48

a Rhode Islander? No. No.

6:51

You said wicked smart. That's what I said

6:54

growing up. She's wicked smart. Oh

6:56

my God. That's amazing. Okay, sorry. Just

6:59

go ahead. That's okay. Yeah, I

7:01

know. That's probably not how a psychologist describes children. That's

7:03

what I think. When I think of her, that's just

7:05

what comes to mind for her. And

7:08

she also had really bad reflux. She

7:10

had reflux so bad that got missed

7:13

for too long that she ended

7:15

up with a feeding refusal. So she was

7:17

a two, three month old baby that

7:20

refused to eat at all. And

7:23

then I actually sleep fed

7:25

her for six months. So then from like

7:28

three months to nine months, she

7:30

just thought she didn't eat. Oh

7:33

my gosh. She went to

7:35

sleep and woke up kind

7:37

of full, but she didn't know the process

7:39

that got her there. And that sounds

7:41

really unhealthy. And in most cases it would

7:43

be, but that was like the alternative to

7:45

a feeding tube at that point. And

7:48

so we had to give her a variety

7:51

of different medications when she was really young

7:53

and some of them had to

7:55

dissolve in her mouth. And

7:57

so it wasn't just like, you know, you shoot with a

7:59

syringe and. an infant's mouth or something like that. But

8:01

like we had to hold her

8:04

mouth closed as gently and kindly

8:06

as we could, but not allow her to spit

8:08

this medication out until it dissolved. And we tried

8:10

a bunch of different ones and you know some

8:12

of the medications didn't taste good. Plus she had

8:14

this whole idea that having things in

8:17

her mouth was what caused her discomfort.

8:20

And so she really didn't like that even as

8:22

a young young infant. And

8:24

so we turned to a screen and we

8:26

would put it on for you know like I think it

8:29

was Mickey Mouse's Club. I think I still

8:31

remember the song from this.

8:33

And we would put that on for her for just

8:35

like a minute or two to try. So she would

8:38

be calming off that we could give her the medication. And

8:42

she was like she could go

8:44

from fighting you and really upset to like

8:46

that glazed over like oh what is this

8:48

look really really quick at like five months

8:51

of age. And

8:53

then she and that was the only time we

8:55

used it and she didn't want it turned off.

8:57

You know she had difficulty if we turned

8:59

it off she would get really frustrated. And this wasn't

9:02

like you know we weren't sitting her in front of

9:04

it on morning or anything like that. And

9:06

it was just really interesting to see the pull

9:08

that a screen could have

9:10

over a little itty bitty baby of

9:14

that age. And so I

9:16

kind of started to dig in more into how

9:18

the programming is designed and

9:20

what's going on brain wise to

9:22

understand better why it

9:24

was that it was hard for her to

9:27

turn off and why it

9:29

had this mesmerizing effect on

9:32

her. Wow I mean yeah that

9:35

sounds like exactly what you should have done

9:37

right. It's like a very useful application. Yeah.

9:39

Full of screen time. That sounds like an

9:41

incredibly challenging baby to start off with though.

9:44

I hope number two was a lot easier

9:46

in your grads. He was so much easier.

9:48

They're both wonderful you know totally different

9:53

personalities but we prepped my

9:56

oldest daughter you know we're like sometimes

9:58

babies cry. And then

10:00

he came along and he was like, meh, you

10:02

know, he was just like the super, super calm,

10:07

super melo maybe. And she was

10:09

like, you guys are really open dramatic, you know.

10:11

Well, that's good. I'm glad for you. You

10:14

had it in that order. So you could be prepared. So

10:16

what did you discover with the research? What

10:19

is happening in the brain? What

10:21

are some of the effects of screen time on infants

10:23

and young kids? Yeah.

10:27

So when we're talking about, I really like acronyms. So when

10:29

I talk about young kids, so

10:31

under five, I use the acronym SWOT for SWOT, the

10:36

screen time, because those are

10:38

the five big areas where I think we have,

10:40

you know, the best research in terms of some

10:42

of the negative associations we see with screens. So

10:45

S stands for sleep. Children

10:48

who have high amounts of recreational screen time. This means,

10:50

you know, like for fun. For pleasure.

10:52

That they go to bed later and that they have a

10:54

total, their total sleep duration is shorter. W

11:01

is for wait, but there's associations in between recreational screen time

11:03

and wait for

11:06

kids. A for attention, which is over with.

11:10

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

11:14

Thanks for clarifying that. A for attention, which I

11:16

think is really interesting looking at the ways in

11:18

which, you know, we're really interesting looking at the ways

11:20

in which, you know, a two,

11:23

three, four year old, we think

11:25

of as generally inattentive, you

11:27

know, and looking at the ways in

11:29

which screen time affects their attention. We

11:31

have experimental and longitudinal research that shows

11:34

a negative effect of

11:36

recreational screen time for young

11:38

kids. And then there are

11:40

attentional abilities at age seven when they're in school.

11:44

The second A is for aggression. So

11:46

kids are great at modeling. And

11:49

that's why your work in terms of helping us

11:51

to be mindful, right,

11:53

and to carefully choose

11:55

our words is really

11:57

important because they're watching what we're doing and they are watching what's on the

11:59

screen. screen too and they tend to attend

12:02

to the content that is

12:06

most overwhelming for

12:08

them in a way, right? So they watch a

12:10

show and there's maybe some aggressive

12:12

content that the moral of the show

12:15

is that, you know, aggression is not good and

12:17

we shouldn't hint or we shouldn't say unkind things.

12:19

Kids tend to remember that we

12:22

hint, right? Or that we say unkind

12:24

things. And here I'm talking about little kids. So

12:26

when they just attend to that, it's like, you know,

12:29

you think about some of

12:31

the psychological principles that make people bad eyewitnesses. Like

12:33

if they see a gun, they only remember the

12:35

gun, right? They don't remember the person's face. It's

12:37

kind of the same thing with kids and

12:39

aggression and content. There was a really interesting

12:41

study of Clifford the Big

12:43

Red Dog where there was a dog with

12:45

only three legs and the whole, you

12:48

know, the kids remained him and they excluded this

12:50

dog. But the end, it was like, disabilities

12:53

are okay and we should, you know, accept

12:55

everybody and treat everybody equally. And like the

12:57

kids who watched it that were too

12:59

young, so they were four or five, a little younger than

13:02

the intended audience, they got the opposite

13:04

message from the program. Oh my God.

13:06

It's so sad. Right. And

13:08

they just attended to that time that was

13:10

really salient for them when the kids were

13:12

being mean, you know, and so that was like

13:14

they couldn't connect to the beginning, middle and

13:16

end of the show when they were too little for

13:18

the show. Stay

13:24

tuned for more Mindful Momma podcasts right after

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sucks. They're

16:02

almost like modeling, like it's like the

16:05

brain is, you know, the

16:07

most developed part of the brain when

16:09

you're born, right, is your stress response

16:11

system, right? Right. Like that's the only

16:13

fully developed whole system in the brain.

16:15

So like that part of the brain

16:17

that's looking out for threats is

16:20

fully developed and is like, oh, that's

16:22

right. And so then then that's

16:24

the thing that's really sticking. Yeah.

16:27

Yeah. And they're just not paying attention

16:29

at the end when everybody's like calmly getting a

16:31

message, right? They're like somewhere else, right? And

16:35

then the T is for talking. So

16:37

there's a connection in between screen time

16:39

and young children and language acquisition. So

16:42

a really interesting study that showed, you know,

16:44

for each 30 minute increase they had with

16:46

a handheld device, like a parent's

16:48

cell phone or an iPad, that

16:50

toddlers were 49% more likely to

16:53

have a language delay. And

16:58

so, you know, kids learn talking. There's

17:00

been a lot of efforts to teach kids taught

17:02

via language through videos. Those companies

17:04

have been sued and lost and they

17:07

just do not learn language through videos

17:09

and anything that says your kid

17:11

is going to learn language by watching and

17:13

engaging with a program. That's

17:16

just not the case. They get it from human

17:18

interaction. They're sleeping less. That's

17:21

so huge because of the whole, the

17:23

way your brain learns and that can

17:25

lead to learning deficiencies

17:27

and just things like that. I know that my own

17:29

daughter had like a sleep apnea

17:32

and when we finally got

17:34

her tonsils out then that's

17:37

when her reading went crazy. You

17:39

know, it's like, oh, now she could sleep the

17:41

whole night through. And then she started

17:43

to read and read and read and read and read. It

17:45

was pretty amazing. So,

17:48

weight, attention, aggression and

17:50

talking. So, I guess as you were

17:52

like looking into this, you started to

17:54

say, oh crap, what have

17:57

I done to my child? Yeah,

18:00

yeah, we stopped really quick with what we

18:02

were doing. And I

18:04

should say that if there are parents listening whose

18:06

kids have some sort of a medical issue and

18:08

they use screen times judiciously

18:11

to help the child with a treatment

18:13

of some sort, that that is

18:15

not considered a bad use of screen

18:17

time, right? But for

18:21

us, it was like, wait a minute, let's back up and

18:23

let's see if we can help her understand

18:26

that we have to do this in a

18:28

more respectful fashion. That isn't

18:30

just kind of distracting her from it, but

18:32

it's trying to loop her into

18:34

what we're doing. And maybe it won't

18:36

be as easy for us in the beginning, but

18:39

maybe that means that it'll be more meaningful for

18:41

her in the long run, right? That we

18:43

don't do things to her, but we try to do

18:45

them with her, you know? And that

18:48

sounds silly for a six month old, but it

18:50

really is a different perspective that

18:52

was meaningful for us. No,

18:55

I think that makes a lot of sense. It's kind

18:57

of like the, you know, it's like, you

19:00

can do those things with a six month old, you

19:02

just, you start to say it all out loud. Like,

19:05

I'm gonna take off your diaper

19:07

now, does this feel okay? I

19:09

think all that kind of modeling that respectful

19:12

language, even if they're not getting

19:14

all of it and et cetera, that's

19:17

how you start, right? That's how you start

19:19

to learn and practice those things. And that's

19:21

how kids start to get those expectations, how

19:25

they'll be treated. So

19:27

we stopped pretty quick and

19:30

then she didn't have any screen time, and we

19:33

got to two. And

19:35

here I had started digging, you know, I had really

19:37

been involved in digging into the research and

19:39

doing some writing and things. And

19:42

we looked at her and we're like, now she's two in

19:44

one day. So now

19:46

she, at the time, you know, that it

19:48

was like, that was the switch to one

19:51

hour in the American Academy of Pediatrics at

19:53

policy statement. And we're like, why would we

19:55

do one hour of screen time a

19:57

day at this point? And so we've been,

20:00

decided to keep going and to keep her totally

20:02

screen free as long

20:04

as possible. She's nine now and her

20:06

brother is six. And I really believe

20:08

in keeping the kids delaying

20:11

it as long as you can based on your

20:13

family circumstances, but definitely till age five. Um,

20:16

and so both of them were totally

20:18

screen free through to age five,

20:20

which is much easier than, you know, kids your age.

20:22

I'm sure, you know, you bet that's just not an

20:24

option, but the thing is, it is easier

20:27

to keep them screen free. So if you can

20:29

do that, um, if you can

20:31

put a little effort up front, it is

20:33

much easier and there will be plenty of

20:35

time later when they have to be introduced

20:37

to screen for a variety of things. Yeah.

20:40

I'm so with you. And I was so

20:43

frustrated with my husband who's a computer programmer

20:45

who was like, Oh, she's

20:47

two, like she's two and a half. Like let's

20:49

get her started on some early like programming and

20:51

kind of things. And she's

20:53

got her's and I was like,

20:55

okay, fine. And I

20:57

was sort of arguing this sort of other

20:59

side. Um, but I'm, I'm

21:02

really with you in that, you

21:04

know, that we, we

21:06

limited our kids screen time a lot more

21:08

than most other kids, maybe less

21:11

than some people. Um,

21:13

and we got to see so much,

21:16

so much creative play

21:18

and, and now is a

21:21

whole different story now that they're 11 and

21:23

14 and we're in a pandemic and it's

21:25

a totally different story, but this

21:27

is really different. Like what you're advocating is

21:29

really, really different from what's happening for most

21:32

kids, right? Like, do you, do you know

21:34

what kind of the statistics are for most

21:36

kids? No. Cause I mean, I've seen that

21:38

all the time, a kid in a stroller,

21:40

who's so young to like go walk holding

21:44

a phone and watching the phone

21:46

while they're walking outside and it's

21:48

like, like, I just, you

21:51

know, but, but this is, this is, this is the, this is

21:53

the lay of the land these days, right? Yeah.

21:56

Yeah. And so some of that, I mean, we have,

21:58

we run a, my husband and I together run. website

22:00

called screenfreeparenting.com where we're just trying to

22:02

be as loud

22:04

and trendy as we can to fight

22:07

with the technology companies who are really pushing

22:10

parents and pushing kids to do it

22:12

younger and younger and younger. And I

22:14

do feel for parents in that most

22:17

parents introduce it thinking

22:19

that it is something that is good or healthy

22:21

for their child, right? So they don't want their kids

22:24

to be left behind. They want help

22:26

teaching colors or numbers. And

22:29

then once they introduce it, they realize that it's

22:31

like a really messy playground

22:35

where like nothing is designed appropriately for

22:37

their child. And they're like running around

22:39

trying to save them from, you know, the

22:41

climbing structure that's way too big for them. And you

22:43

know, it's just persuasive design

22:46

runs so rampant in children's

22:48

applications and games and programs that

22:50

then you have a kid who has no

22:53

emotion regulation because they're two. And so

22:55

they just don't, they don't come with

22:57

that, right? And

22:59

they want more and more and more of it. And

23:02

it ends up, the parent ends up in

23:04

this crazy power struggle where they are set

23:06

up to lose because the programming has been

23:09

designed so that the kids will want more

23:11

of it. So

23:13

how did you guys, you and

23:15

your husband, how did you limit

23:17

the screen time or basically have

23:20

not much screen time at all? Very very

23:22

limited screen time before the age of five.

23:25

Assuming that you watch

23:27

some Netflix now and you're on like,

23:30

how did you do that yourself?

23:32

Do you know what, what did, what were

23:34

some of the strategies you did? Yeah,

23:36

yeah. So I think where

23:38

I still try to be one thing that

23:40

I have totally failed at during the pandemic

23:43

is we were really conscious. We both work

23:45

full time, really conscious about the

23:47

work that we did in front of our kids

23:49

with a screen and really conscious of our own

23:51

phone use and kind of thinking ahead to like,

23:54

when they're teenagers, this is what we're going to want them

23:56

to do with the phone that they might have. And so

23:58

we need to do that now. Like, let's

24:00

be really intentional and

24:03

respectful about our use of technology. And then

24:05

the pandemic hit and there's like, we're

24:07

just like all over the house supervising

24:09

while also in meetings and teaching

24:12

classes. And so where, you know,

24:14

initially I would have students hand things in

24:16

on paper so I could grade on paper

24:18

while I was also supervising the kids so

24:20

that they could understand better what I was

24:22

doing. You know, so

24:24

it wasn't like this confusing black

24:27

box that pulls me in kind

24:29

of thing, right, but they could understand like

24:31

students write things and mom reads them and

24:33

then they give them feedback and they could

24:35

see that and be like, okay, that's totally boring. I'm

24:37

going to go back to the forward I was making.

24:41

But in terms of our own recreational

24:43

screen time, we do things, you

24:45

know, similar to you. We have a screen

24:47

free day a week and it is so

24:49

restorative. It feels like there's extra hours in

24:52

the day there. It's wonderful. And

24:55

we would, you know, if we were going to have some

24:57

Netflix or like something we were going to do with screens

24:59

for fun, we would do that after our kids went to

25:01

bed. You know, sleep is so important for kids.

25:03

And so they were in bed by 7 7 30. And

25:05

that gave us plenty of time if

25:08

we wanted to do something like that. Okay,

25:10

cool. Yeah, I mean, I think

25:12

that sounds really, really

25:14

pretty reasonable. I mean, especially

25:16

considering, you

25:19

know, considering the negative side effects

25:21

that we're seeing in that whole

25:24

image of like that kind of

25:26

like hypnotized toddler, just

25:28

staring into space and you talk about you

25:31

describe a situation. I think it's

25:33

like the first chapter where, you

25:35

know, there's like this, someone,

25:38

a child, like kind of

25:40

like hypnotized completely

25:42

wrapped during a 74

25:44

minute presentation of children's

25:47

songs. And it's like

25:49

for like, I don't know,

25:51

20 months old. Yeah, that's

25:54

frightening. Because that's not what

25:56

kids are supposed to do, right? They're not supposed to be

25:58

completely wrapped for 74 minutes. No,

26:00

no, there is something wrong there, right?

26:02

Like if your kid is sitting silent,

26:04

glazed over, not realizing they're hungry or

26:07

tired or something like that for 74

26:09

minutes at 20 months of age, there's a

26:11

problem there. But that wasn't an in

26:13

description. That was a description

26:15

of a child who is watching a YouTube

26:18

video of songs,

26:20

maybe songs. And

26:22

it could have been any content because it was

26:25

really just flashing constant screen shifts, which is some

26:27

of the worst kinds of screen time. And that's

26:29

what I mean by, you know,

26:31

this playground equipment that wasn't meant for them. You know,

26:33

it wasn't they didn't look at a child and think

26:35

about what does a kid need? Which

26:37

is what some high quality program in was

26:40

designed that way. I mean, Sesame Street was

26:42

designed that way. Looking at children, looking

26:45

at educational gaps of kids and

26:47

kindergarten and figuring out how could we use media

26:49

to help with that? Lots

26:51

of children's programming now

26:53

is designed for how can I lube them in and

26:55

make them look at my thing the longest so that

26:58

I have the most ad revenue, right? And

27:00

so there's like no thought about what would

27:02

be good for this kid. Sesame Street had

27:05

built-in breaks to it, like that

27:07

we're encouraging the kids to get up and leave and go

27:09

outside and start a conversation and things like

27:11

that. And the program is exactly opposite that

27:14

now, right? It's encouraging your kids to watch

27:17

it and not realize that the sun has

27:19

risen and they're starting to set. It's

27:22

amazing. It's like the attention economy. And now

27:24

I think I was like my 14 year

27:26

old on TikTok, which is like apparently my

27:28

husband, he signed, he got on to TikTok

27:30

for a little while just to experience it.

27:33

He felt like he said he felt like

27:35

it hurt his brain after a while, like

27:37

his attention was scrambled as an

27:39

adult. And I'm like, oh man, TikTok. But

27:44

this is the same kid that, you

27:46

know, she, yeah, we had

27:49

this screen free life. And

27:51

I would like to just want

27:53

to kind of segue into that question of like what, you

27:56

know, okay, so you didn't have screens. You didn't

27:58

have their hour screen time. every day,

28:00

you know, between the ages of

28:02

two and five. So what

28:05

did your kids do, right? And that's

28:07

the question that we

28:10

get, that I've got a lot, but I'm really

28:12

interested to hear about your answer. Like what happened

28:14

with that? Yeah, yeah. So what are

28:16

you talking about in the book is that, you

28:19

know, we feel these negative associations, that sort

28:21

of swap acronym we just went over with

28:24

little kids and screen time. And

28:26

there's two major theories about why we

28:28

have those negative associations. So

28:31

one theory that I think has really gotten

28:33

disproportionate attention says that it's due to the

28:35

content, like that video on

28:37

YouTube has fast, rapid screen shifts, and

28:40

that's causing attention problems later on, or

28:42

the content, except for the

28:44

red, big red dog is developmentally inappropriate.

28:46

And so if that's the problem,

28:48

then we keep telling parents, watch with your

28:50

kids, check ratings, play with your kids, you

28:52

know, do all these things to like

28:54

check out, make sure the content is great. But

28:57

there's another theory, and that's the

28:59

displacement theory, which says that some

29:01

of the negative effects of screen time might have

29:03

nothing to do with the screen time itself, your

29:05

kid might be watching like, beautiful

29:08

nature documentaries, you know, or

29:11

whatever, right? But like water in

29:13

a bathtub, as they fill up their day

29:15

with more of that, there's less time for

29:17

these things that are really good for

29:19

physical and psychological development

29:22

of children. And so

29:24

it's the loss of those activities

29:26

that is driving some of these

29:28

negative effects. And if

29:30

that's the case, that's confusing as a parent,

29:33

because now you have to orient not only to you

29:35

know, what your kid is doing, but also to what

29:38

your kid is not doing. And you don't

29:40

really know the answer to that, right? But

29:43

the positive thing about displacement is that

29:45

it gives us an in like we

29:47

can have a positive goal of increasing

29:49

their time spent in these

29:52

activities that we have known for decades

29:54

and decades of research are really

29:56

good for kids. And then

29:58

if they have sufficient time

30:00

and those categories of activities, then

30:03

we can worry a little less about

30:05

the screen time because we know it's not displacing the

30:07

things that are really key for their

30:09

cognitive, emotional, physical development. Yeah,

30:13

yeah, I love that. And I like how

30:15

you talk about that too because you're

30:18

right, like, you know, you mentioned that, you

30:20

know, like kind of like weight loss, like

30:22

we don't do well when you say, don't

30:24

do this or you have to be restricted

30:26

in this. And like we all hate to

30:28

be restricted. Everyone, all human beings at every

30:30

age hate to be restricted. And

30:32

so instead, with the displacement theory,

30:34

you're saying like, instead,

30:37

like, let's focus on what we do

30:39

want to do at that time, how we can fill

30:41

that time. So let's get

30:44

to like the idea of maybe

30:46

the pandemic layer. Let's imagine a

30:48

non-pandemic world. Oh,

30:50

that's wonderful. It'll happen sometime.

30:53

What are the things that what are we

30:55

wanting to do with our kids that this

30:58

strange time is displacing?

31:00

Yeah, so as I was digging into

31:02

the research, I was looking at these things

31:04

that are really good for kids. And I was

31:07

also looking at the things, the activities of childhood

31:09

that had an inverse relationship with screen

31:11

time, meaning as screen time goes up,

31:14

the time that children spend in these

31:16

activities goes down. And

31:19

so the cool thing about that is that

31:21

maybe as the activity time spent in those

31:23

activities goes up, screen time will go

31:25

down. And so the five

31:27

activities, it's another acronym and the acronym is SPOIL,

31:29

which is the title of the book SPOIL, right?

31:32

And it stands for assets

31:34

for social, face to face

31:36

social interactions, play, where

31:39

children are learning, cooperation, competition,

31:41

perspective, taking all those things.

31:44

The P in SPOIL is for

31:46

play. Free play is

31:49

freely chosen by the child and

31:52

self-directed. O is for

31:54

outdoor time. You can't

31:56

read the chapter on the outdoor without throwing

31:59

the book in the corner. running outside because it's just

32:01

so good for your kids who see an impact

32:04

and an opposite effect of screen

32:06

time, right? We see an

32:08

inverse relationship in between total sleep and screen time.

32:10

The more screens kids are engaged with, the less

32:12

sleep they have. The more time they have

32:14

outside, the more sleep they have, right? So

32:16

it really counteracts some of these negative effects.

32:18

So time outdoors, the

32:21

I stands for independent work, like

32:23

chores, things that your child kind

32:25

of has to put aside their immediate interest in

32:27

pursuit of a long-term goal. So that could be

32:30

chores, that could be schoolwork as they get older.

32:33

And then the L in SPOIL stands

32:35

for literacy-based activities, reading, being read to,

32:38

listening to an audio book, paging

32:40

through a book, and looking at

32:43

pictures as a pre-reader. That

32:45

those are the five activities that seem

32:47

to be really kind of losing out to

32:49

screen time and some other cultural things.

32:53

And that are really, really good

32:55

for kids and have the opposite effect of

32:57

screen time. You know, time outdoors, reading, play,

33:00

they all build attention skills. So if we're

33:02

worried about the impact of attention on

33:04

our screens, on our children's attention,

33:06

we can increase their time spent in

33:08

these activities and hope that it's at

33:10

least leveling things out a little bit. Yeah,

33:14

this is the thing that gives me

33:16

hope for like this past year. I

33:18

was my children and they're remote learning

33:21

and they're all no access

33:23

to friends except for on Minecraft that

33:27

at least like the first nine

33:30

years, ten, five years, they

33:33

had so much outdoor time,

33:35

so much free play time, so much

33:37

creative play time, social, free, you know,

33:40

all of those things that

33:42

are shown the human development. I mean,

33:44

this is just like what humans need,

33:46

right? Like kids, human kids need, young

33:49

kids need free play, outdoor time, we

33:52

all need outdoor time, doing

33:54

chores. Can we dive into a

33:56

little bit more of these? Which one is your favorite

33:58

one to dive into first? I

34:01

don't know. But I

34:03

do want to say that you are right

34:05

that you should feel a little bit better

34:07

with like the pandemic induced crazy screen time

34:09

of everybody. Because

34:11

there is research to show that,

34:14

you know, screen time habits and rules

34:16

in the family when the children are

34:18

young are predictive of problematic media

34:21

use later when the kids are older. And so

34:23

it does help to kind of set that

34:26

foundation, even though things maybe might

34:28

feel a little more chaotic and out of control

34:30

as they need it for school or they need

34:32

it for some socialization aspects because

34:35

they have that grounding in

34:37

how to socialize, how to direct their day,

34:39

how to direct their attention prior to having

34:41

got the screen. And that's really different

34:43

than a child who didn't get

34:45

to have that experience. So I do

34:47

think that you should feel good about that. Thank

34:51

you, Megan. Yeah,

34:54

I mean, it makes a lot of sense. Like

34:56

those are like zero to five. These

34:58

are incredibly prime brain

35:00

development years like psychological

35:03

development, emotional development, development

35:06

of everything our kids are

35:08

human beings are so immature

35:11

and underdeveloped when according compared to

35:13

every other animal or animal world,

35:15

right? So like, yeah, these these

35:18

years are incredibly important. Now

35:20

I'm worried that the listener has

35:22

a child who is age four

35:25

and is saying,

35:27

Oh my God, Megan and Hunter,

35:29

like, that sounds great. I

35:31

agree with you and everything. But this

35:33

past year has been what it has been. And,

35:38

and do you have any steps

35:41

for helping people walk

35:43

it back? If you have to

35:45

gone too far, because that's the hardest thing is

35:47

like creating those boundaries

35:49

and, and, and having healthy boundaries.

35:51

And I want to ask you about I'm curious about

35:53

I have a friend who has kids

35:56

who are all 10 and older, okay, who

35:58

has started to make a take a

36:00

more screen neutral approach like no restriction

36:03

kind of in the house and I'm

36:06

curious if you think about that. I'm just totally

36:08

curious about that So those it's one question then

36:10

the second question I guess. Yeah, how can we

36:13

walk it back? Let's go down So

36:16

how to walk it back? For

36:18

little kids and for older kids, I would have

36:20

two different answers So let's assume that the kids

36:22

are under the age of five So they're little

36:24

and they don't need it for socialization Because

36:27

you know a 13 or 14 year old Does

36:30

maybe need it for socialization? I will get

36:32

behind in the 13 year old corner and

36:35

say like she's kind of right a little

36:37

and research Supports that idea, but

36:39

our little ones they really don't So

36:43

I really recommend, you know Participating in

36:45

a really fun week like a campaign

36:48

for commercial free childhood screen free week,

36:50

which is coming up And

36:53

talking to your kids about it ahead of time and saying

36:55

hey, you know In the pandemic

36:57

we've all you know, mommy daddy. Everybody

36:59

has gotten really Had

37:02

a lot of fun on their screens more than we

37:04

usually do and for this one week We're gonna take

37:06

a break and we're gonna try to remember all those

37:08

things that we really like to do instead and really

37:10

fill that Week with fun stuff and ask them what

37:12

kind of things they would like to do you

37:14

know if you can pick up more audiobooks from

37:16

the library try to think through some of

37:19

the Tough times in your

37:21

household if it's you know in the morning or if

37:23

it's in the evening if it's dinnertime Whatever it is

37:25

and what you're gonna put in place there and I

37:27

have some some good ideas for that in the book

37:29

as well as on our website and

37:33

You want to try with little kids, you know a

37:35

span of time a week would be great where they

37:37

don't have screens as a part Of their regular day

37:40

and see how things play out, you know Cuz

37:42

it can be hard to figure out what impact

37:44

it's having on their sleep or what impact it's

37:46

having on their play When

37:48

it's such a prominent thing for them And

37:50

then after you take a little break

37:53

it can be easier to prioritize like

37:55

the spoil categories While also having

37:57

you know some screen time that is at an

37:59

appropriate time your family with inappropriate content.

38:03

So that's how I would walk it back.

38:05

Then you ask the question about the

38:07

person with no limits. And

38:09

I think it's probably going to depend

38:11

a lot on the individual child. So

38:14

we've talked a lot about research wise,

38:16

you know, like what is the tipping point? What

38:18

is the number of hours where screen time

38:21

becomes problematic? That's almost always a question that

38:23

parents have. And research

38:25

has found, you know, like a range. However,

38:28

it is really child dependent. So you

38:31

might have kids that are at the

38:33

low end of that range that are

38:35

showing what we would call problematic

38:37

media habits. And there's a validated scale for

38:39

that. They're like at the low end. And

38:42

they're having trouble verbalizing

38:45

about anything other than the game they're playing.

38:47

And they're having a really hard time turning

38:49

it off. They're thinking about it more and

38:51

more. They're sneaking it. It's causing fights in

38:53

the family. Like those are all fine. That

38:56

is problematic for them. Then you might have a kid at

38:58

the high end who has like, no issues

39:00

whatsoever. And they're still outside and they're

39:02

still sleeping great. And so there's there's

39:04

some differences there and how it's going

39:07

to impact different kids, right? Stay

39:14

tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after

39:16

this break. Are

39:21

you overwhelmed by the things that get in the way

39:23

of you doing what you want to do? Are

39:26

you looking for ways to simplify life

39:28

to better align with your values? Do

39:31

you want to create space in your schedule so you

39:33

have room for more of the good stuff? Play,

39:35

joy, relationships, gratitude, and

39:37

more? If you answered yes

39:39

to any of these questions, I invite you to

39:41

check out Edit Your Life, a podcast to help

39:44

you edit the unnecessary from your life so you have

39:46

more room to enjoy the awesome. Through

39:48

episodes with me, Christine Ko, and a

39:50

range of super smart, compassionate, and thoughtful

39:52

guests, you'll come away with big

39:55

picture insights and practical ways to declutter your

39:57

home, schedule, and mental space without getting bogged

39:59

down. all perfection. I

40:01

have always believed that small moments and

40:04

actions matter tremendously. My goal

40:06

is to help you find agency and space

40:08

in your life through doable baby steps that

40:10

will leave you feeling accomplished instead of overwhelmed.

40:13

Check out Edit Your Life wherever you enjoy

40:15

your podcasts. When

40:17

it comes to raising kids, there's so much

40:19

to consider. Things like, what do we feed

40:21

them? When do we feed them? How do

40:24

they sleep? What does it look like to

40:26

raise kind to kids? How does their nervous

40:28

system work? How do I keep myself calm?

40:30

What are my triggers? There's so much that

40:33

comes into play and we are distilling all

40:35

of that information for you at Voices of

40:37

Your Village podcast where we bring experts in

40:40

the field of early childhood and education and

40:42

psychology and across the board so that you

40:44

don't have to comb the internet for information.

40:46

You get to show up and

40:48

hang out and have shame-free, judgment-free

40:51

conversations and insights into what it

40:53

looks like to raise kind, empathetic,

40:55

emotionally intelligent humans. I'm Alyssa Blask

40:57

Campbell of a master's degree in

41:00

early childhood education. I'm a mom

41:02

of two and I am walking

41:04

this journey right alongside you doing

41:06

this work. Come hang out with

41:09

me at Voices of Your Village

41:11

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41:13

conversations with actionable tips. What

41:17

I kind of come back to is that when

41:19

I get, where I get confused about this is

41:21

that it's not like, it's

41:24

not like, it's addictive,

41:26

right? I mean, this, it has

41:28

all that persuasive, you

41:31

know, psychology behind it to make

41:33

it addictive, like more so than,

41:35

you know, reading, even reading

41:37

Harry Potter is. As addictive as Harry Potter

41:39

is with all those cliffhangers. But

41:42

right? I mean, that's what I get hung

41:44

up on as I think about that idea.

41:47

Yes, yes. So, and the thing is that Harry

41:49

Potter ends too. I mean, maybe you didn't feel

41:51

like it if you're reading it while you're a

41:53

kid and you're falling asleep while you

41:55

do it. It's a really good book, but

41:57

you know, parents are tired and the books are

41:59

long. But you know it

42:01

does it does have an endpoint and then the kid moves

42:03

on to something else the

42:06

thing is that The internet and

42:08

children's programming and games like there is no

42:10

head You know like they could do it

42:12

forever And it would never they would never

42:14

get to the bottom of it and

42:17

that's something that like most parents We

42:19

didn't experience as kids because there was

42:21

there was no internet when I was a kid And

42:24

there was TV, but it was self-limiting. There

42:26

was it was the only child appropriate at

42:28

certain times You know and then Saturday morning.

42:31

I thought it was three company after school

42:34

I'm so child appropriate, but I've watched

42:36

it anyway. You're right right right. Yeah,

42:38

I remember that too But

42:40

you know and so like eventually there was

42:42

nothing on for us to watch like if

42:44

we stayed up too late Then you were

42:46

watching an infomercial, and you were like what am I? Do

42:50

I want that? What is it? It's

42:52

my live re-order CDs of classic rock

42:54

no I don't know right and so

42:56

it's like this is for I'm I'm

42:58

actually tired I'm gonna I'm gonna go

43:00

to bed right and so that that will never happen

43:02

to our kids on the internet They could never get boring

43:05

and so it really requires the

43:08

parents do so much more work

43:10

than parents of previous generations did

43:12

in creating those

43:14

boundaries around the screen time

43:17

and so maybe you have a kid who is just real

43:21

easygoing Doesn't

43:23

have problematic media habits And

43:26

they're able to turn it off and good for

43:28

them But that doesn't mean that that

43:30

parent or that kid is doing anything better than

43:32

the parent of the kid who? Really

43:35

can't turn it on okay Because

43:38

of persuasive design because it was designed that way

43:40

for the kid to not turn it off for

43:42

them to feel like they're going To die they're

43:44

going to miss out on something they're going to

43:46

you know these are all Psychological phenomena

43:48

that we're now studying we're studying FOMO or

43:51

fear of missing out in teenagers like the

43:53

real thing It's like all anxiety. Ah, passion,

43:55

you know, it's research wise is a real

43:57

thing and it's a real

43:59

thing because it was created to be

44:01

a real thing. Because if they

44:03

could induce those feelings and that teenage

44:05

girl or boy, they could

44:07

get them to log back on. They could trigger

44:09

them to log back on and tunnel them back

44:12

in and spend more time and they would, their

44:14

products, you know, murder

44:17

value. The YouTube. Mom,

44:20

Wilbur is going live, doing blah,

44:22

blah, blah right now. And I'm

44:24

like, isn't it recorded? Like, can't you

44:26

just rewatch it later? Like, why do

44:29

you have to go right now

44:31

to do this thing? Like,

44:33

I hear that for sure. You know,

44:35

following the Minecraft YouTubers. Yeah,

44:38

yeah. And so it's unfair to the kids

44:40

and it's unfair to the parents. And

44:43

the spoiled system is a way of trying

44:46

to say, whoa,

44:49

like, knee-breath. These are

44:51

the things that really matter. So you don't have

44:54

to get media whiplash from every study because it's

44:56

gonna take decades to figure out all the ways

44:58

in which it's problematic and all the ways in

45:00

which it's not. But

45:02

you can focus more on the things that

45:04

are really good for kids and families.

45:07

And then maybe worry a little less when

45:09

they feel like they need to run to

45:11

YouTube immediately to watch that video because you

45:13

know that they spent time outside and you

45:15

know that they've been reading and you know

45:17

that they've been playing with a friend and

45:20

talking to you and like, had all these

45:22

positive experiences that are necessary for their development.

45:24

It's not infiltrating those things. If

45:26

you can keep it, if you can

45:28

prioritize those and not let them get

45:31

edged out, then you can worry a little less. This

45:34

is very helpful. I love this. So

45:37

parents of young kids reduce

45:41

the screen time as much as you can. Fill

45:43

with that good time. I love the idea of

45:46

kind of a detox week. I can imagine some

45:48

challenging conversations between parenting partners

45:51

about this because it's not like a

45:53

real fun thing. It's kind of like

45:55

your dryuary for some parents. Like, do

45:57

I really wanna do that? But

46:02

I think that's a great idea. When

46:04

is the Screen Free Week? What

46:07

week is it every year? I used to remember it

46:09

was like, I think it's May 3rd,

46:11

but I will feel terrible because I worked with

46:13

a campaign for a commercial free childhood a lot.

46:15

They're a great organization. You can sign up

46:17

on their website, CCFC,

46:21

the Campaign for a Commercial Free Childhood, and they'll send you

46:23

like a kit on their nonprofit. They'll

46:25

send you like a kit with ideas and

46:27

things like that. They have information for schools

46:29

that want to promote it and participate in

46:31

Screen Free Week and ways to integrate it

46:33

with the curriculum and all those sorts of

46:35

things. It's coming up and I want to

46:37

say it's early May, but I could be

46:39

totally wrong and I'm sorry if I am. That's

46:41

okay. That's okay. Now,

46:48

what do you think about older

46:51

kids? Selfishly I'm asking. I'm

46:53

having a thing about older

46:55

kids and

46:57

the world we're currently living

46:59

in this spring

47:02

slash summer of 2021 where we're remote learning.

47:09

The only way to

47:11

see some friends is

47:14

playing Minecraft and talking to another.

47:19

Do you have

47:21

any advice for us who are struggling in

47:23

that situation with some older kids? Yeah.

47:26

First, I have a great deal

47:28

of empathy because Screen Free for

47:31

little kids is held up as it's like this,

47:33

some sort of crazy ideal that really involved parents

47:35

do. I think it's actually, from

47:37

my perspective, it's just like the lazier

47:39

choice. I remember at like three, it

47:42

was like, I can go view a program with you. I

47:44

was like, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going

47:46

to watch. If I'm going to

47:48

sit with you, I'm going to read to you. I'm going to do

47:50

something that you can learn to do later on your

47:52

own to entertain yourself. It's the lazier

47:54

version and yet it's good for your

47:57

kid. I want to

47:59

interject here because... I just wanted for the parents who

48:01

are like, oh, it's easier. I have to

48:04

back you up, Megan, because it is. You just

48:06

say there's something to do is right around

48:08

the corner. Kim Payne

48:10

said that. Something to do is right around the

48:12

corner. You have some open-ended toys around. You don't

48:14

have to have a lot. You just kick them

48:17

outside if you have a backyard, if you're lucky

48:19

enough to have that. But

48:21

you don't have to be your kid's. We're not

48:23

saying be your kid's entertainer. Megan is now saying

48:25

be your kid's entertainer. They can

48:27

do that. It will be

48:30

maybe five or 10 minutes of

48:32

painful whining. And all you say

48:34

is something just right around the corner and become

48:36

more boring than whatever it

48:38

is around your house. And

48:40

it's not that hard. Sorry.

48:43

I wanted that. I got there. I'm glad you

48:46

highlighted that, because I also think the parents that come

48:48

to me and are like, oh, my. I

48:51

could never do that. I would never be able to shower.

48:53

I would never be able to do this. They're

48:58

dealing with a problem that the screen

49:00

created that only the screen can solve.

49:03

Because every

49:05

time their child maybe had to deal

49:08

with some negative emotion, like mom's in the

49:10

shower. Mom said, no, mom won't do this

49:12

for me or dad or whomever, they

49:16

had access to a screen. And so they actually

49:19

never dealt with any of those negative emotions,

49:21

because the screen can totally distract them from it.

49:23

And they don't know that they have to feel it. When

49:25

you take away the screen for that kid

49:27

who's had it for a while, boredom does

49:29

feel worse than it does for a kid

49:32

who hasn't had it, because they don't

49:34

have all those little micro dose exposures

49:36

to it. And so that

49:38

parent says, my kid would lose it if

49:41

I tried to make dinner, if I tried to take a shower, if

49:43

I tried to have a meeting. But

49:45

the thing is that over time, when they're

49:47

exposed to, the next great

49:49

thing is right around the corner, you've got lots of toys. I'm

49:51

busy right now, but I'll be with you in 15 minutes when

49:55

I'm out of the shower, whatever it is. Then

49:57

they have to deal with that over time. used

50:00

to it and emotion regulation builds.

50:03

I'm not saying like we want to make our

50:05

kids measurable, but we do want our children to

50:07

be exposed to things like frustration and boredom. And

50:09

to know that they can get through it. The message is

50:11

not like, I want you to be frustrated, but you're

50:14

frustrated. That's a human thing. And I

50:16

know that you're going to get through it. And

50:18

I'll be here. And

50:20

we will deal with frustration over time.

50:24

Again, not something our parents had to deal

50:26

with, because if I wanted a lollipop in

50:28

the grocery store and my mom said, no,

50:31

there was no magical device that was going to sing

50:33

to me and change colors and make me feel better

50:35

about it. I just had to deal with it and

50:37

be mad at my mom. But that was good. And so

50:40

over time, your kid will develop

50:44

this capacity for self-directed play as

50:48

they get exposed to it in little doses. That's

50:50

how we all did it. We all got exposed

50:52

in little doses to not having somebody's attention 24-7.

50:57

And we learned how to direct our own day.

50:59

And then it is so easy once they have

51:01

had some exposure to that, because they are busy

51:03

and they know where the limit is. Yeah.

51:06

Yeah. I love that. That

51:08

detox week. Okay. So it's not as hard

51:10

as you think. Parents of young kids. No.

51:13

Parents of older kids. Parents of older kids.

51:15

Okay. So those parents get a big dose

51:17

of empathy for me, because research shows what

51:20

you know, which is that those kids that

51:22

are screen free and

51:24

14, they're not really doing so good.

51:27

Okay. So there's sort of this U-shaped

51:29

curve with screen time and mental wellbeing

51:31

that the kids with no screen time are

51:33

not doing very well. And the

51:35

kids with too much screen time are not doing

51:37

very well. And the kids who have a moderate

51:40

amount, they're the ones that are doing that. And

51:42

so you don't get to do the

51:44

super easy thing and just be like, oh, we just don't

51:46

do that in our house. Right. You

51:48

have to parent in the

51:51

middle, which is harder. But

51:53

going along the research, you do have to have some

51:55

limits if your kid doesn't seem to be able to

51:58

find them on their own. Right. Which

52:00

is because I'm yeah, which is what

52:02

it has most kids human beings like

52:04

like, you know I mean if we

52:06

didn't have to work and

52:09

and I don't know, you know, like

52:11

how many people would you be? Why

52:13

did you get lost? Bridget in for seven

52:16

hours? Yeah totally

52:18

lost in it and

52:20

never ends to me so

52:24

You know you have to get a parent in the middle and

52:27

you have to be the one to place the limits because

52:29

the screens Come with no limit. There is no end to

52:31

them and But

52:33

I do recommend that you can do the same

52:35

thing the same spoil system I sitting

52:37

down and talking with your kids about what do they want

52:40

to do more of like how can you turn this into?

52:42

A positive thing instead of it being you get two hours

52:44

and you don't get any more and we're gonna turn it

52:46

off Like sitting down and saying what are the things that

52:48

you haven't gotten to do of what? What are the things

52:50

you want to do more of and creating

52:52

a list as a family and then really

52:54

showing up? So you try to

52:57

increase time spent in those activities as

52:59

a family to incidentally reduce the screen

53:01

time because what? What you referred to

53:03

at the beginning hunter is my favorite research

53:05

study, which is those positive

53:07

versus negative goals They had families

53:09

where there was one obese parent Which

53:12

is a predictor for the childhood obesity and

53:15

they broke them into two groups and one group

53:17

got a diet plan To avoid high fat high

53:19

sugar foods. They got this negative goal. That's like

53:22

cut the screen time only do two hours, whatever

53:25

And then the other group they didn't talk to

53:27

them about high fat high sugar foods at all

53:29

But instead they got a nutrition plan to increase

53:31

fruits and vegetables And they followed

53:33

them for a year and the families

53:35

that had lost more weight were the

53:37

fruit vegetable families And they had

53:40

increased their fruit vegetable intake They had cut

53:42

high fat high sugar foods without being told

53:44

to because as they ate more fruits and

53:46

vegetables They just had less space for them

53:49

And so this idea of focusing on avoidance

53:51

and limits we have limited willpower

53:53

and only lasts for so long And so

53:56

if we can kind of flip it's the

53:58

same conversation, but it is a different

54:00

perspective. And so if we can talk

54:02

to our teens about what they want to do more of,

54:05

and that's not, you know, more time on

54:07

the screen, you know,

54:09

and we can show it and help them with those

54:11

things. And we can help them see the good experiences

54:14

that maybe take a little more effort, you know, teens

54:16

can get together for something like a

54:18

baseball game, socially distanced and masked. It's

54:21

like impossible for a four year old to have a

54:23

socially distanced masked playdate. Like I've done that, you

54:25

know, like they're like, what six feet away? Like, no,

54:27

what am I supposed to talk to him about? What

54:30

he's read? I said, what are you saying? You know, like,

54:32

they just want to play and like get in each other's

54:34

faces. Like we're like teens, like they want to talk. And

54:37

so you can get together outside and you can

54:39

sit outside masked and just like there's ways

54:41

to get teens together that is harder

54:44

than just allowing them to do it on their phones.

54:47

But it will also result in them having more

54:49

fun and feeling better. And so it'll be

54:51

self reinforcing. So just like we need to

54:53

like show them the good books and you

54:55

know, help them understand the good foods. We

54:57

need to show them the meaningful ways to

55:00

really get their social needs met and things like that.

55:04

This is so, so helpful, Megan.

55:06

I really, really appreciate it. It's

55:08

making me think like my teen

55:10

and I, she's in Scouts BSA.

55:13

She's in a girl's troop

55:15

of the Boy Scouts. And we

55:17

went on an ice hike. I

55:20

never would have planned something like

55:22

that or done something like that. And

55:24

I was so happy we finally did it, you

55:27

know, like it like we did it. It was

55:29

amazing. And it was safe

55:31

and wonderful and all those stuff. But I

55:33

love that. So what do you want

55:35

to do more of? That's great. Okay. Again,

55:38

I said poorly talked to you guys longer.

55:40

There's so much to say, obviously, but listener,

55:43

definitely check out Megan's book,

55:45

spoiled, right? You know, check

55:47

out the screen free parenting.com.

55:49

So much great information there.

55:52

And yeah, I believe in

55:54

this, you know, it's like,

55:56

it really, what do

55:58

you know, yeah, we need to. walk the

56:00

middle path and right now our culture is

56:02

pointing us to so much excess and

56:05

distraction which is really harmful

56:07

for our minds and our hearts ultimately, right?

56:09

Nobody's going to look back and say, oh,

56:13

that one hour of TV, that was

56:15

like one of the best times in

56:17

my life. No one's going to do

56:19

that, right? So anyway,

56:21

Megan, is there anything that

56:23

we miss that you want to leave the

56:26

listener with and also any other places you

56:28

want them to

56:31

reach out and find you? No, no,

56:33

you can find us there. You can find us on

56:36

Facebook. The book has for

56:38

each of the categories all the research on

56:40

them and then I think like 20 to

56:42

25 different ideas for each category to get

56:45

you started. So if you

56:47

have a child and you're not

56:49

sure how to get started, we give you a bunch of

56:51

ideas. And you like Hunter said,

56:53

you'll have the ideas in the beginning as you're

56:56

helping a child maybe wean or decrease

56:58

the time they're spending on a screen

57:00

and then they take us, right?

57:03

And you don't really have to do much.

57:05

You don't have to entertain them all the time. They will

57:08

be able to entertain themselves. Thank

57:11

you so much, Megan, for sharing this

57:13

research and all these incredible ideas and

57:15

doing the work that you're doing to

57:18

help us all in this area. I think it's really,

57:23

really important. I can't wait to give

57:25

away the wonderful two copies of the

57:27

book. It's happening here. It's just some

57:29

people who can use it.

57:32

And yeah, thanks for coming on the podcast.

57:34

Yeah, thank you so much, Hunter. Thanks for having me. I

57:45

am so on board with

57:47

Megan's campaign to reclaim

57:49

some of the time our kids are

57:51

dedicating to their screens, especially now post

57:54

pandemic. I think that we can start

57:57

to be more intentional about

58:00

the way it can take over our

58:02

kids' lives. So I hope you found

58:04

this episode valuable. If you did, you

58:07

know, it really makes a huge difference

58:09

to me when you let me know.

58:11

I love seeing the screenshots. You can

58:13

take a screenshot of where you're listening

58:15

to this and share it

58:17

with me. I'm at Mindful Mama

58:19

Mentor on Instagram and let me

58:22

know what takeaways you're getting from

58:24

this awesome interview with Dr. Meghan.

58:27

Thank you so much for being here. Thank you

58:29

for listening. I'm so glad to

58:31

be connecting with you. We're moving into

58:33

spring in my life and it's beautiful

58:35

here in Delaware. And I've been able

58:37

to see some amazing things recently. I

58:39

got to see a baby horse born

58:41

in the middle of the night. And

58:44

I'm just feeling really grateful for

58:47

that, really grateful for my vaccine

58:49

and my tax dollars paid for

58:51

that vaccine, thank you. And

58:53

I hope that you are seeing

58:55

some light after our long winter

58:57

as well. Wherever you

58:59

are. And maybe

59:02

that's just in your personal world and

59:04

not in your country yet, but I

59:06

hope you're seeing some of that, some

59:08

light in your world. And I can't

59:11

wait to connect with you again next

59:13

week. Thank you, thank you so much

59:15

for listening. I really appreciate

59:17

you sharing your time and spending this

59:20

time with me here. It's

59:22

awesome, so glad we can connect. And

59:25

I wish you a wonderful, peaceful week

59:28

and less stress, more joy,

59:30

all that good stuff. Take

59:32

care, it's no no say. I

59:42

say definitely do it, it's really helpful.

59:44

It will change your, your kids better.

59:47

It will help you communicate better. And

59:49

just, I say communicate better as a person,

59:51

as a wife, as a spouse. It's been really

59:54

a positive influence in our lives.

59:56

So, definitely do it. I say

59:58

definitely do it. So,

1:00:00

we're fed. The money really is

1:00:03

inconsequential when you get so much

1:00:05

benefit from being a better parent

1:00:08

to your children. Feeling like you're connecting

1:00:10

more with them and not feeling like

1:00:12

you're vowing all the time or you're

1:00:14

like, why isn't something working? I

1:00:16

would say definitely feel it. It's so, so

1:00:18

worth it. It'll change you. No

1:00:21

matter what age someone's child is,

1:00:23

it's a great opportunity for personal

1:00:25

growth and a great investment in

1:00:27

the whole family. Everything will end.

1:00:30

You can continue in your

1:00:32

old habits that aren't working

1:00:34

or you can learn from

1:00:36

the tools and engage in

1:00:38

perspective to shift everything

1:00:40

in your parenting. Are

1:00:46

you frustrated by parenting? Do

1:00:48

you listen to the experts and try all

1:00:50

the tips and strategies but you're just not

1:00:53

seeing the results that you want? Or

1:00:56

are you lost as to where to start?

1:00:58

Does it all seem so overwhelming with too

1:01:00

much to learn? Are you

1:01:02

yearning for community people who get it,

1:01:05

who also don't want to threaten

1:01:07

and punish to create cooperation? Hi,

1:01:10

I'm Hunter Clarkfield and if you answered

1:01:12

yes to any of these questions, I

1:01:14

want you to seriously consider the Mindful

1:01:16

Parenting Services. You'll be

1:01:18

joining hundreds of members who have discovered

1:01:21

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1:01:26

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1:01:29

This is an opportunity to really

1:01:31

discover your unique, lasting relationship, not

1:01:34

only with your children but with

1:01:36

yourself. It will

1:01:38

translate into lasting, connected

1:01:40

relationships, not only with your

1:01:42

children but your partner too. Let

1:01:44

me change your life. Go

1:01:47

to mindfulparenting.com and add

1:01:50

your name to the wait list so you will

1:01:52

be the first to be notified when I open the

1:01:54

membership or enrol. I look

1:01:56

forward to seeing you on the inside. Well,

1:02:08

hey there, busy mama. Are you looking

1:02:11

for ways to make your life easier, your home

1:02:13

less chaotic, and at the same time, add more

1:02:15

joy to your life? My

1:02:17

name is Deanna Yates and I'm the host

1:02:19

of Wannabe Clutter Free, a podcast

1:02:21

all about letting go of the stuff we

1:02:23

don't need in our lives so that we

1:02:25

can focus on what truly matters. Don't

1:02:28

worry, I'm not going to tell you to throw

1:02:30

it all away or make you feel guilty about

1:02:32

keeping something you love no matter how many other

1:02:35

people don't quite understand it. But

1:02:37

I will give you practical and more

1:02:39

importantly, actionable advice so that you can

1:02:41

make progress right away. And

1:02:44

you won't just hear it from me. There are

1:02:46

amazing guests too. It's like having

1:02:48

your bestie in your pocket, telling you it's okay

1:02:51

to let go of the things that are not

1:02:53

serving you and your family in a totally non-judgmental

1:02:55

way. So join me over on

1:02:57

the podcast where we can work on progress over

1:02:59

perfection for those of us that want to be

1:03:01

clutter free.