0:12

Hi and welcome back to the Mindfuls and Sport Performance Podcast

0:14

. I'm Dr Keith Kaufman .

0:16

I'm Dr C .

0:18

And I'm Taylor .

0:18

Brown .

0:20

And thanks to everyone for coming back

0:22

to join us for , hopefully , what is another

0:24

interesting conversation . What

0:27

we want to talk about today was

0:30

actually a pretty interesting organic

0:32

moment of live television

0:34

and how it relates to some of

0:36

the work that we all do . This

0:39

was recently on weekend

0:41

coverage of the Premier League . The English Premier

0:43

League NBC for those

0:45

who don't follow have the rights

0:48

the television broadcast rights to the Premier

0:50

League and they have a studio show , which

0:52

is actually really great , and

0:55

one of the things that came up this week was talking

0:57

about the role of mental health in

1:00

soccer or football , and

1:03

what blossomed from a prompt

1:05

that the studio host , rebecca Lowe , gave

1:08

to the two analysts who

1:10

were joining her , who are both former professional

1:12

soccer players Lee Dixon and

1:14

Robbie Musto was a pretty candid

1:16

and awesome exploration

1:19

of their experiences

1:21

with mental health in

1:24

pro sport in soccer

1:26

, and how things have evolved in

1:28

recent years and the different things that are available

1:30

now to pro players that weren't available to them

1:32

when they played , and

1:35

so it was really really interesting and powerful

1:37

. I was incredibly struck by it

1:39

and thought it would be a fascinating thing for us to explore

1:41

on the podcast . So

1:44

essentially , the

1:47

conversation suggested that there

1:51

was very little available to Lee

1:53

and Robbie when they were playing

1:55

and

1:57

they felt

2:00

a lot of acute pressure

2:02

to perform , so much so that

2:04

they talked about toward the end of the clip that

2:08

the actual 90 minutes of soccer were pretty miserable

2:10

for them , pretty , pretty unfun . And

2:14

they both expressed , I think , some appreciation

2:16

for the increased resources that

2:19

current players have and more attention

2:21

to mental health , and that more players were speaking

2:23

out and talking about their mental health and advocating

2:26

more for what they need , but how that

2:28

was really not possible

2:30

, not available to them when they were players

2:32

. So

2:34

I guess what I hope to discuss with you guys today

2:36

, with Tim and Taylor , is how

2:40

do we feel about this , how do we feel about the

2:42

state of mental health

2:45

in sports , the sort of interface

2:47

, the role with sport , psychology , and

2:51

maybe how far we've come in a relatively

2:53

short time and what are some areas that

2:55

we still have to go ? And

2:58

maybe , most specifically , what role does mindfulness

3:00

play in some of what's happening

3:03

or some of what could happen next ? So

3:05

, guys , I know that I shared the clip with

3:07

you . I was excited , I kind of geeked out on it

3:09

and said , hey , check this out , this is amazing , this

3:11

was this totally organic live TV moment

3:13

. I'm curious what

3:16

your reactions were when

3:18

you saw this the discussion amongst

3:20

those three people .

3:22

I mean , I thought just the fact

3:24

that they were having this conversation felt so

3:26

important and I was really quite

3:29

impressed , actually , with these

3:31

two commentators , robin Lee , how

3:36

much they were willing to share . And I realized it's going to retrospective

3:38

, you know , in terms of like this was happening to me 20

3:40

years ago , 30 years ago , but the vulnerability

3:43

that was there , right , and

3:46

even though they did refer

3:48

to this idea like , yeah , we kind of had to develop thick skin

3:50

and you really just couldn't talk about that stuff , you couldn't

3:53

share your fear , you couldn't share your anxiety , I

3:56

mean it was pretty clear they weren't saying that it wasn't

3:58

there , they were just saying they had to

4:00

bottle it up , they had to push it down

4:02

, they had to find a way to kind

4:04

of get through without

4:06

addressing it . And I thought it was really at

4:09

one point and I can't remember which

4:11

one , but they shared they

4:14

just had this interaction with a young soccer player

4:16

, a former pro . He'd been a pro . He

4:20

dicks in , yeah , and he ran

4:22

to this guy on an airplane , you know , and

4:25

he'd been in the pros for about a year and

4:27

he was saying , like I'm

4:29

actually going to leave , like it's an honor to meet you , I just wanted to

4:31

introduce myself but like I'm actually leaving

4:33

the pros , I'm not going to

4:36

play anymore . Like the pressure is too much , it's

4:38

like my heart's not in it , I can't , you

4:40

know , I can't keep doing this

4:42

. And it's something that

4:44

I thought a lot about as a coach . It's

4:46

something I have thought a lot about just

4:49

doing the work that we do . How

4:52

many great athletes

4:54

don't get the chance

4:56

to show their greatness because

4:59

they don't have , like the mental and emotional support

5:01

that they need ? Like

5:04

, yeah , if you are someone who can

5:06

kind of , you

5:08

know , adapt to that environment

5:10

and sustain for any period

5:12

of time , we're pushing all those emotions down , which is an

5:14

unsustainable strategy in the long , long term

5:16

. But like someone could probably do it for a few years

5:19

, you know . But

5:22

like what if you're not someone who could do that for a few years

5:24

? What if you're not someone who could do that even for a year ? Right

5:26

, and yet you could still

5:29

contribute right To a league

5:31

, to a team , to a sport

5:33

, but just you know , because you're

5:36

not allowed to talk about

5:38

your fear and your anxiety , you know you don't get

5:40

the underlying anxiety disorder , eating

5:42

disorder , whatever it is . You know you don't get that treated

5:45

and that's just you , just weakness right

5:47

, and you just get pushed out Like

5:50

oh it's so , I don't know . I

5:52

was so glad that they were , they were opening this

5:54

door .

5:56

Yeah , when I was watching the

5:58

clip I had a few thoughts

6:00

, one being and Tim , you

6:03

had mentioned it just about these

6:05

are kind of I guess I would call them middle-aged

6:07

men who had maybe played

6:10

20 plus years ago , and the

6:12

first thing I thought was I wonder how indicative

6:15

their experience is of the

6:18

players who are playing

6:20

currently , or the athletes who are

6:22

playing currently in professional soccer

6:25

and other professional sports

6:27

and in college athletics

6:29

. You know , at the University of Pennsylvania we

6:31

have a sports psychologist who

6:34

, well , we have one sports psychologist

6:36

on staff for I believe

6:38

oh man , I

6:41

don't know how many sports I

6:44

want to say upwards of 20 sports , maybe

6:48

a thousand student athletes I

6:51

feel like I'm getting those numbers really wrong , but

6:53

it's one person trying to

6:55

service a

6:57

very large group of student

6:59

athletes . So there are these

7:01

resources available and we do have

7:04

that person

7:06

address our coaches quite frequently

7:09

and the athletes are made pretty

7:11

aware that that

7:13

person is there and that person is

7:15

available for them , though I do

7:17

think you know , it is an underutilized

7:20

resource . Now , I know I

7:22

spent time working on a professional rugby

7:24

team and we didn't have

7:26

a clinical sports psychologist on staff or

7:28

a clinical psychologist on staff . We

7:31

had me as a mental performance coach that

7:33

didn't really address clinical

7:36

mental health issues . I was mainly working with

7:38

athletes on performance , specifically

7:40

performance related things

7:42

that they wanted to talk about . But a

7:45

lot of times I did hear about

7:50

their anxiety , you know , if we had

7:52

, you know , we did have one guy on the team who

7:54

was struggling with

7:56

substance abuse and we kind of had to

7:58

direct him to outside resources

8:01

for help with that . I

8:03

guess my initial response

8:05

was what are the resources

8:07

that are available now ? Are they different

8:10

in different sports ? And then are they different in

8:12

different contexts ? Or you

8:14

know , what does it look like for high school athletes

8:16

, what does it look like for college athletes , what

8:19

does it look like for professional athletes ? And

8:21

are there just different

8:23

places that have more

8:26

or less , and is that

8:28

consistent across

8:31

those contexts ? So that was

8:33

my initial response

8:35

.

8:38

But I just like brought

8:40

back a memory what

8:42

you were sharing , you know , because I

8:44

do think one of the things that they were trying to highlight

8:46

was that and even though this example , right

8:48

, this anecdote that Lee had shared

8:51

, was recent , you know , like

8:53

they were also saying like it does feel so different

8:55

now there is more openness

8:58

, now People are able to

9:00

share about their own

9:02

vulnerability , their fears and anxieties , right

9:04

, and I think , in general , there

9:07

does seem to be less stigma overall

9:09

in terms of seeking help

9:11

. I know that there is very

9:14

much still stigma in society and I think , even more so

9:16

when it comes to the world of athletics . I think

9:18

that there's still this

9:20

really kind of like intransigent kind

9:23

of belief system around , right , like that stuff is

9:25

weakness somehow , right

9:27

, but I

9:29

do think that that voice is quieting

9:31

down . And

9:33

so I know , in my experience , you

9:36

know , early on in my career I worked

9:38

in college counseling centers and

9:40

while I was there , I was also working

9:43

with athletic teams , you know , and so I got

9:45

to see like live , you know

9:47

, like both sides of this coin , because

9:50

some of the people that would come into the counseling center were the athletes

9:52

, right , you

9:54

know , we tried to be very , very mindful and intentional

9:57

about like dual relationships and the boundaries and stuff like

9:59

that , letting know that the athletes , you know , if they

10:01

didn't want to talk to me because I might be working with their team

10:03

, they didn't have to talk to me , that kind of thing

10:05

. But you

10:08

know , just because of the limited staff and limited

10:10

resources sometimes it just it

10:13

kind of had to be that way , right when I was

10:15

doing some clinical work , also

10:18

with someone who was on a team and it just like really

10:20

highlighted for me , like

10:22

I mean , there's really holistic perspective that we talk

10:24

about a lot . But you know you can't parse

10:26

out someone's vulnerability

10:29

, someone's trauma history , someone's potential

10:32

clinical diagnosis from their sport

10:34

performance . If that is what's going on

10:36

and I remember actually giving

10:39

a talk at this rowing conference whereas

10:41

in part kind of making this point

10:43

you know , like , if you're working

10:45

with a team , you know if you're working with

10:47

a college team , you know if you're working with

10:49

a women's team , all you need is five people on that

10:51

team and you can be highly confident

10:53

that someone has a history of sexual assault . If

10:56

you're working with a men's team , that number only has to be 15 or 16

10:58

. Right , but you think like that's not

11:00

going to play a role in their internal life

11:03

which is going to somehow impact their performance . And

11:05

even during that talk , I shared a story when

11:07

I was coaching . This is before I was a licensed mental

11:10

health professional , so I was not in a position

11:12

to help this person . But yeah , when I

11:14

was coaching , I had this experience where

11:17

one of my athletes

11:19

just had

11:21

not in the vote during the practice . I mean , it's

11:23

very obvious , very clear . You know , we

11:25

get off the water and they come up to me afterwards

11:27

and I'm like what

11:30

happened today ? And they tell me

11:32

that they were assaulted the night before . As

11:36

a coach , I feel like you

11:38

have to be cognizant , like that . Your

11:40

athletes have that stuff in their lives that you that

11:42

like as a trusted caretaker

11:45

, really , in these athletes lives

11:47

, they might come to you with this stuff , all

11:50

right , and so it's not your job , it wasn't

11:52

my job in that moment to help her with

11:54

that , you know , but to help her

11:56

connect to the resources she

11:58

needed . Absolutely right , to

12:00

make sure that she was feeling safe , talking to me

12:02

, to make sure that she knew that I would

12:04

help her get connected to the sport , to the support

12:07

that she needed . You know , and I was like

12:09

lucky that I had some awareness

12:11

of the mental health world and the counseling

12:13

center and like where to go , but I could so

12:16

easily imagine a coach who's just like just

12:18

there to make them perform better , right , and

12:20

to not really be thinking about . Oh my God , what am I

12:22

going to do if an athlete comes to me with something

12:25

like this ? Or if I notice symptoms of an eating disorder

12:27

in one of my athletes , like you

12:31

know ? Yeah , how am I going to respond to that ?

12:36

So I think a really interesting way to frame

12:38

this , because I love

12:40

what both of you are saying . It's

12:43

almost like if we take a 30,000 foot view

12:45

on what's happening , what's happening in

12:48

the field of sports psychology

12:50

, less clinical sports psychology , what's

12:52

happening in the realm of sport

12:54

, or even we could probably broaden it out to sort of

12:56

elite performance right , because I don't think sport

12:58

is the only place where this happens

13:00

, it just so happens

13:02

. So I meditate each morning

13:04

and one of my favorite apps to use

13:07

there's free advertising , I suppose , for

13:09

this app , but I use Insight Timer

13:11

a lot just for its versatility

13:13

, and one of the things that Insight Timer

13:15

has started doing in recent years

13:18

I guess it's been going on for a while is they always have a quote

13:20

every morning and I kind of look forward to the quote

13:22

, like what's the quote going to be today ? Because sometimes I really

13:25

love them and , interestingly , I think

13:27

the quote from today is

13:29

a really fascinating way to frame what we're

13:31

getting at here . So

13:33

it's from Nathaniel Brandon and

13:35

the quote is the first step toward

13:38

change is awareness . The second

13:40

step is acceptance , and

13:43

it feels to me like what we're talking

13:45

about , like what

13:47

, lee , what Robby , we're getting at is

13:50

that we are very much in the stage of

13:52

awareness , that there is more awareness

13:54

now , there is more of a platform to

13:57

address these things . And , tim , I think

13:59

you were just speaking to that . As a coach

14:01

, you need to be aware that these

14:03

things are happening

14:06

. And , taylor , what

14:08

you were saying about Penn

14:10

, I think that's probably

14:12

pretty typical in a way . There's this weird

14:15

tension , there's this weird irony , right . It's

14:17

like well , we have a sports psychologist

14:20

for hundreds , if not thousands

14:22

, of athletes , and yet this is

14:24

someone who's underutilized . There's

14:27

this weird like the

14:30

ratio is so low and yet the

14:32

usage numbers may not be exactly

14:34

what we would expect , and

14:38

I think some of that is kind of

14:40

what they were discussing in the clip . In fact , one of the things

14:42

they referenced is I

14:44

wonder if this is part of what Spurred ? I

14:47

find that I used the word Spurred for I'm about to say Spurred

14:49

on this particular discussion

14:51

on the studio show because the current Tottenham

14:53

Hotspur manager and

14:55

Pasta Coglu was talking

14:58

last week about

15:01

how sometimes the lives of football

15:03

players are idealized and in

15:06

fact , they have issues just like anyone

15:08

else , and just because we may look at them

15:10

and think , wow , they played this game for a living , they

15:12

lived a high life , they make all this money

15:14

, they've got plenty of mental health issues

15:17

, right . I'm paraphrasing him here , but

15:19

I think that's part of what kind

15:21

of spurred on this

15:24

studio discussion and it's like yeah , I think

15:26

we have increasing awareness that

15:28

there is a need that

15:31

athletes are not invincible , that

15:33

mental health is a big thing and

15:36

that if we care about performance , right , if we care

15:38

about results , we have

15:40

to kind of think about this in a more holistic

15:42

way , right ? So I think there's been a lot of progress

15:45

made in terms of that awareness piece . I

15:48

think what we haven't really broken into yet

15:50

to refer back to this quote , I

15:52

don't think we've really gotten to a place of acceptance

15:55

where it's like okay , now

15:57

that we're aware of it , here's

15:59

how we really integrate these kinds of services

16:02

in a way that is

16:04

embraced , that is accepted , that is

16:06

accessible . I think even within

16:09

the field of sport and performance psychology , there's been

16:11

this really interesting movement now where

16:13

I mean , certainly when I broke into this field

16:17

, it was hard to even be a performance specialist

16:19

Like Taylor you were talking about your role with the rugby

16:21

team those kinds of roles didn't necessarily

16:23

even exist , or if they did . They were

16:25

few and far between . I think there's

16:27

been a proliferation of those kinds of roles

16:29

now , but we're almost now jumping right

16:32

to wanting someone clinical like

16:34

, not just a performance specialist but someone

16:36

who's also a clinician , who can handle both

16:38

right . So like a clinical sports psychologist

16:41

is now , I think , a desirable

16:43

skill set or a desirable credential

16:46

set to have for a lot of these jobs

16:48

, certainly in professional or higher

16:50

level college sport

16:53

. And what are the implications

16:55

of that ? Like , tim , you and I were talking earlier

16:57

this morning about this that do you

16:59

want somebody who is

17:01

ostensibly the performance specialist also doing

17:03

the mental health work , right ? So if

17:05

you have one person who's hired I don't know what

17:07

the credentials are of the Penn person , taylor but

17:09

you have one person who's in an athletics

17:12

department or in a counseling center , who's the sports

17:14

psych person , who's both a clinician

17:16

and a performance person , what are the implications

17:19

of that ? Right ? So this

17:21

is like a Pandora's box in

17:23

a lot of ways . Like it's

17:25

great that there's so much more awareness that

17:27

we can watch the Premier League

17:30

on a Saturday or Sunday morning and that we could be

17:32

privileged to a conversation like this

17:34

. But I think it also highlights

17:36

really the challenges that

17:38

we still have around acceptance

17:40

of kind of what do we do with this ?

17:46

Yes , and I've got a few thoughts

17:48

Because

17:50

, like I was sharing you know , like I

17:52

was in that position where I was a

17:54

staff person at the counseling center and

17:57

doing this mental performance work with some of the teams you

18:00

know , and it

18:02

forced the issue in some ways of creating

18:04

these dual relationships

18:06

. I was in that position for

18:08

about three years and I mean you

18:12

know I don't nothing

18:14

bad ever happened . You know , there was never a

18:16

significant issue with any of the

18:18

athletes who I ended up having to work

18:20

with clinically and then also do the mental performance

18:22

work . I mean I would

18:25

love to be able to say that was like all the skillfulness

18:27

on my part and the intentionality that my you

18:29

know fellow colleagues and I and the coaches

18:31

too , that we all like we got on the same page

18:34

about what we would tell

18:36

the athletes about who I was on my role , was like yes

18:38

, absolutely . But I have to admit

18:40

I also it was also luck , because

18:43

when you're in that position

18:45

, when you're in a multiple relationship

18:47

like that , it is risky . I mean that's partly

18:50

part of why it is emphasized in our ethics

18:52

code , you know , to as

18:55

a psychologist or as a mental performance

18:57

consultant , to really be thoughtful

18:59

and at all costs try to avoid those

19:02

kinds of situations , right ? Because even

19:04

with all the intentionality and all the thoughtfulness

19:06

, it could still create

19:09

issues for the team , for the athletes

19:11

that you're working with . You know , and so

19:13

I think you know , there's enough

19:16

resistance to the idea of , like , fully

19:18

integrating a mental performance person

19:21

or even a clinical sports psychologist , really

19:23

embedding them into a team . I mean , really

19:25

the direction we need to go in is a treatment

19:27

team , right , there needs to

19:29

be the clinical person who can deal with the clinical

19:31

stuff , and there also needs to be the mental performance person

19:34

who can do that without muddying the waters

19:36

with the clinical stuff . And there needs to be , like the physio

19:38

, the kinesiologist , who can do the body mechanic

19:40

stuff . And it's like we're talking about

19:42

this next level of embracing

19:45

holistic wellness

19:47

for these athletes , because I do think that

19:49

is what is required for people to really

19:51

perform optimally in a sustained way

19:54

. But that's

19:56

going to be a lot for people

19:58

to to accept .

20:02

Another thought that I have here is

20:04

I've experienced

20:06

a lot of different I

20:10

guess you can call them archetypes of

20:12

athletes on teams with

20:14

regard to mental health

20:16

, mental performance

20:18

, their openness

20:22

to talk about that stuff and

20:25

their level , the level with

20:28

which they're equipped to handle that

20:30

stuff . So one thing that's

20:32

that's coming up in my mind and actually

20:34

that came up when I was watching the clip originally

20:36

is just

20:40

the spectrum , the

20:42

spectrum of how athletes

20:45

of , I guess

20:47

, the coping mechanisms , the , the

20:49

adaptive coping mechanisms that they have for

20:52

dealing with things

20:56

like anxiety or depression

20:58

, for instance . You

21:00

know , on the rugby team , for instance , there

21:03

were there were

21:05

athletes who would even refuse to

21:07

talk to me about performance related things . I had

21:09

an athlete you know I

21:11

was . I had kind of open hours for athletes to come

21:13

talk to me and I wanted to kind of get through

21:15

everybody and just have

21:18

at least one conversation with everybody . And there

21:20

was one guy I just I saw

21:23

him in the training room and I said hey

21:25

, you know when are you going to come talk to me ? He

21:27

said you're not getting in my head and

21:30

that was , that was the only time

21:32

we ever really talked and

21:34

he was just very

21:36

, very resistant to talking to me

21:38

. But on the flip

21:40

side , he , he

21:42

was one of our best players and he was very solid

21:45

, and he , he

21:47

didn't really seem . You know , I know

21:49

that there was probably nervousness , I

21:51

know that there was probably some things going

21:53

on there , but he never really seemed

21:55

to be to be bothered too much by

21:58

it . And then there were other athletes

22:00

who were incredibly open as soon as I

22:02

got there , they were in talking to

22:04

me , they talked to me every week at the same time

22:06

and so it was like , and

22:08

those guys , they really wanted strategies to deal

22:10

with the performance anxiety . They really

22:13

they were really buying

22:15

into the whole process . And and

22:17

I guess the question I have for you guys

22:20

in the roles , in your

22:22

roles , I guess the assumption

22:24

we make is that everybody has

22:26

some clinical mental health

22:28

issue that they they need somebody

22:31

to help them with . But you know , is that really ? Is

22:33

that really true ? You know , are

22:35

there people that that they

22:38

do have some very well

22:40

, maybe that experience these

22:42

things less than other people ? Are there people

22:44

who are pretty just , well adjusted

22:47

adults , who who don't really

22:49

have any kind of significant mental health issue

22:51

that they're going through ? And

22:54

then I know , I've certainly experienced

22:56

people who just naturally are

22:58

, they seem

23:00

to be less anxious , they seem to just let

23:03

things roll off their back a little bit

23:05

more freely . And now

23:08

you know , I know I'm a person who experiences

23:10

a significant level of anxiety in my

23:12

life . I know

23:14

there are people on the team that I coach right now that

23:17

that just seem to be pretty

23:19

easy going . They're not

23:21

. They're not high stress individuals . So

23:23

I guess you know what's the , what's

23:25

the spectrum of of

23:28

need that you see on teams and

23:30

and with with athletes , I guess is what

23:32

I'm asking . I guess does

23:34

I think it's probably dangerous to go

23:36

in either direction of oh , everybody

23:38

needs this , or nobody needs this

23:41

, you know . So what do you guys think

23:43

about that ?

23:45

Yeah , I mean I think I have a

23:47

lot of reactions to what you're asking . It's a great question and

23:49

I think my experience

23:52

is that you see things on teams , just like

23:54

you see in the general population , that

23:56

there are some people who have what you would say like

23:59

a clinical level of need and then

24:01

there's the majority of people who don't

24:03

. And you

24:05

know , I guess I do what I do for a living , so

24:07

maybe I'm biased and believing that some

24:10

degree of self awareness , some degree of self

24:12

monitoring , some degree of self

24:14

expression can be beneficial to everybody

24:16

. That doesn't mean

24:18

that you quote unquote need it or else

24:21

you can't be successful . I

24:23

think I guess part

24:25

of what came up for me in listening to what you're saying , taylor

24:27

, is another part of that clip toward

24:29

the end , when they're talking about pressure and

24:33

just talking about the significant amount

24:35

of pressure , what it is like they were speaking

24:37

about being a professional football player , a special

24:39

soccer player . You're

24:42

in this microscope and

24:44

everything you do is analyzed . And

24:47

now , in the time of social media

24:49

and I was just talking to a journalist

24:51

about this actually like just

24:53

just how much scrutiny , like

24:55

when you're a public figure , if you're in

24:57

a semi public figure what , what

25:00

kind of scrutiny , what it is like to operate

25:02

in that system , in that world , and

25:05

and how much you can take on

25:08

and how difficult it can be

25:10

to just do the

25:12

things that we know lead to peak

25:14

performance . If we're just going to talk about performance for

25:16

a second right like like to be able to let

25:18

go , to be able to trust yourself

25:20

, to be able to just be in it , right , we talk about

25:22

things in our , in our research , like flow

25:25

quite a bit , to be in the flow of things

25:27

. Well , the reality is you're in a pressure cooker

25:29

. The reality is that's hard

25:31

and and Lee and Robbie

25:33

were talking about , frankly , the 90 minutes

25:36

right of soccer

25:38

were not particularly fun moments

25:40

for them . In fact I think

25:42

it was . Robbie said he could only

25:44

let go a little bit when they were at three nil

25:47

and there were 10 minutes left in the game

25:49

, so a victory was assured . That's when he could take

25:51

a deep breath and say , ah , okay , right

25:53

. So I mean I think there's a lot here

25:56

and and you know , we one of the things

25:58

I love about the mindfulness and sport world

26:00

is is how collegial we all are and

26:02

collaborative and I think , like Garner

26:04

and more and some of their work with Mac , that

26:06

they've kind of looked at this a little bit in terms

26:08

of what is subclinical versus clinical

26:11

, level of of need and and

26:13

how mindfulness can address it . It's

26:16

hard for me and again maybe this is

26:18

my bias , but it's hard for me to make a convincing

26:20

argument that that people who

26:22

play in this pressure cooker of sport or

26:25

or certainly rise to a level words their

26:27

lives can't benefit from

26:29

subclinical care of

26:32

some kind . You

26:34

know , I think , like when I

26:37

think about what what that rugby player said to you

26:39

, taylor , if you're not getting in my head , I

26:41

mean with all due respect to him , because I'm sure he's

26:43

a wonderful player and a wonderful person that's

26:45

just ignorance of what you were offering , right

26:48

, I mean , I mean to me it's like some of this

26:50

is a lack of understanding of of what

26:52

are we really talking about here . But

26:54

I absolutely agree that there's got to be a degree of nuance

26:57

. I don't think it's helpful to now come at this and

26:59

say everybody's got a mental health issue . Everybody

27:02

needs to be treated , everyone needs to be in psychotherapy

27:05

and you know clinical psychologists need to be

27:07

working with every single athlete . Is that ? I

27:09

agree that that is not what this is about

27:11

, and I think that's one of the challenges that our field has

27:13

now . It's always been complicated

27:15

being a sports psychologist because you're

27:18

sandwiched together to entirely

27:20

different professions kinesiology and psychology

27:22

and now even on the psychology

27:24

side , there's some divide between

27:27

, like , what are we really talking about here ? Are

27:29

we talking about clinical levels of care

27:31

? Are we talking about subclinical levels of care

27:33

? It is a very

27:36

, very nuanced discussion

27:38

, which is why I love that clip so much .

27:41

And yeah , and I just I want to add

27:44

my two cents . I think this is such an important

27:46

question you're asking Taylor and like um

27:49

, and even I

27:51

was saying before in that

27:53

example of like oh yeah

27:56

, a coach , if you're working with a large enough

27:58

you're so small college team

28:00

, like you

28:02

can be pretty confident that some of your athletes

28:04

have a trauma history , you know , and

28:07

like that is something I think we need to be cognizant

28:09

of . And I'm also aware that , like

28:11

now , like everybody

28:14

uses the word trauma to describe pretty

28:16

much every hardship they've ever had . So

28:18

, from that perspective , like yeah , everyone has a trauma

28:20

history . But , like you know , there is a difference

28:23

between what are , you know , capital T trauma and little T trauma

28:25

, and there's also an individual difference . You know , not

28:27

everyone who experiences capital T trauma

28:29

gets PTSD right , like , and

28:32

so kind of the point I was making before

28:34

about how there are probably so many

28:36

potentially great athletes out there who

28:38

get quote unquote weeded out of the system

28:40

because they don't have the support they need Well

28:43

, what that leaves behind is the athletes who didn't need

28:45

it , you know , who didn't need that support because

28:47

they don't have a clinical mental health issue

28:49

, right , or because they just naturally right the

28:52

way they respond to the world . Maybe they have really high trait

28:54

mindfulness , without ever even meditating , right , they

28:56

just they can be more present

28:58

, they can think , let things roll off their back . So

29:00

it's like I think it is important to stay

29:02

pretty emphatically no , not everyone like

29:05

needs this , capital N needs

29:07

this . But , just like Keith was saying , I

29:09

personally think everyone could benefit

29:12

from like doing some intentional reflecting

29:14

on their coping mechanisms , because everyone

29:16

experiences stress , right

29:18

, and everyone responds to stress in some

29:21

maladaptive ways and some adaptive ways , you

29:23

know , and that balance is different for everybody and I think

29:25

anyone could benefit from

29:28

taking a close look at that with

29:30

someone whose job it is to help them take a close

29:32

look at that . However , I also know

29:34

, in my private practice and my informed consent , I

29:36

make sure to highlight the literature . Right , there's

29:38

about 10% of people who pursue therapy who

29:40

have negative outcomes . Right , it's

29:43

not the kind of thing that , like , will help everyone

29:45

, no matter what . Now , some of those

29:47

outcomes are just it brought up feelings that I don't

29:49

wanna have to feel , you

29:52

know , which is a whole other thing . But

29:54

, yeah , I think there are

29:56

plenty of athletes out there who

29:59

kind of can adapt and develop good coping

30:01

methods . I mean , I even look back at myself

30:03

and my own rowing career and

30:05

, like , when I was a rower , I

30:08

didn't know much about mindfulness . But

30:10

when I look back at some of the things that I did internally

30:12

, you know , like when we push off the dock , you

30:15

know , I would kind of actively say to

30:17

myself like all right , I

30:19

can't write that paper , I can't study for this exam

30:21

. Like I'm pure , I'm like out on the water , I'm

30:23

in a boat , I'm like I'm not even touching dry land

30:25

. I just might as well be here and focus

30:28

on what I'm doing . Like I think

30:30

that was pretty helpful to me , without any training

30:32

whatsoever , you know , and

30:35

I do think there's this kind of funny phenomenon this

30:37

would be my hypothesis I don't know if there's research to back this

30:40

up but that like in

30:42

these youth sports , right

30:44

, the people who do need more support

30:46

, who might have clinical mental health stuff

30:48

, like they kind of get weeded out because

30:50

that support isn't as readily available . And so the

30:52

athletes you have left over are the ones that can

30:55

kind of manage more

30:57

on their own and as they rise

30:59

up into like the collegiate or the elite

31:02

ranks I mean and of course when you look

31:04

at epidemiological stuff , there's

31:06

sometimes clinical mental health stuff doesn't manifest until

31:08

you're in college or post college

31:10

, right . So like you're still gonna see people who

31:12

, in new ways , develop that

31:14

kind of stuff , and then they kind of get weeded

31:17

out , right . So then you get all the way up into the

31:19

elite ranks and so what you

31:21

have is like leftover , these people who maybe

31:23

just temperamentally or naturally , right I

31:26

figured out ways to cope or adapt . They've got heartiness , resilience

31:28

, whatever you want to call it , and

31:30

then the pressure from the

31:32

environment creates problems

31:34

, right . So it wasn't necessarily

31:36

stuff like I was predisposed to having an anxiety

31:39

disorder . But , oh my God , the pressure

31:41

of having to win and perform can be at my best at

31:43

every single moment . And if there's no space

31:45

for me to be vulnerable , there's no space for me to let

31:47

down , like I think that can

31:49

start to create this

31:52

much higher level of stress than perhaps they're

31:54

used to . And every human being

31:56

has a limit . Even if you have the most phenomenal

31:58

coping mechanisms ever

32:00

, right , like , there is still an amount of stress

32:03

you might experience in your life where your coping mechanisms

32:05

can't match that level of stress

32:07

. That's not weakness , that's not a fault or a flaw

32:09

, it's just human

32:11

beings having limits , right . And

32:14

so it's like , yeah , when you put these people , even really healthy

32:16

, adaptive , resilient people , in a pressure cooker

32:18

, sometimes

32:22

bad stuff is gonna happen . And those

32:24

people , I think it's why having

32:26

sports psychologist , clinical

32:28

medical professionals , whoever embedded in a team

32:30

, like , if not even

32:32

in a proactive way , although that would be my preference , but just

32:34

as a safety net when the inevitable

32:37

happens , right , like that , like , yeah , I'm stressed

32:39

out because this is a stressful situation and

32:41

it'll be helpful to talk about it , right , but

32:43

that , to me , is different than your point , taylor

32:45

, of like , not everyone necessarily needs it to

32:48

perform well .

32:49

Yeah , I think that's a really important

32:52

point that you just

32:54

made for athletes to hear , for teams , for coaches

32:57

to hear , Because I think

32:59

there's we always wanna

33:01

conceptualize things in black and white

33:03

, in , you know , like

33:06

binary basically , and we

33:08

wanna say like , oh , it's either you

33:11

just gotta tough it out , right , or

33:13

it's , you know , we all wanna

33:15

be in therapy and

33:18

we wanna have these touchy-feely discussions and

33:20

it's like I think that

33:23

there's a fear , I

33:25

think among coaches and athletes , of

33:27

getting soft , there's

33:30

a fear of talking about emotions

33:32

, and I think there's

33:34

that's why

33:36

these important , that's why these discussions are so important

33:39

, because you start to have more nuanced

33:41

understanding of what is actually

33:44

going on for athletes

33:46

, what is actually being offered

33:48

by folks like us

33:50

, and you start to get

33:52

in the nooks and

33:54

crannies of these discussions in a much more

33:57

productive way , because what you

33:59

just described , any coach

34:01

would be able to logically

34:03

follow that and it's like , yeah

34:06

, that makes sense , that's not scary

34:08

, right . Like that's like

34:10

you just kind of described like the life

34:12

cycle , I guess , of an athlete

34:15

and how that

34:17

has you kind of get higher

34:20

, like the pressure , you know , might get

34:22

more . It might bring

34:24

other things to bear . The

34:26

other thing that I was thinking about is it's like to

34:28

your points of acceptance . You know , Keith

34:31

, you're talking about awareness , and now acceptance

34:33

is that the folks

34:36

, the athletes who might

34:38

not necessarily need

34:41

the clinical treatment

34:43

I think those are the

34:45

people who are gonna really be the difference makers

34:48

here in terms of finding this

34:50

acceptance , because , although

34:52

they might not feel that this

34:54

is something that they need

34:57

, I think there needs to be an empathy

34:59

on their part to recognize that their

35:02

experience isn't everybody's experience

35:04

. You know , and I've definitely felt

35:06

that just in life in general not

35:08

just being an athlete , but in life like I

35:10

require a little bit more care

35:13

around dealing with things like

35:15

anxiety and depression , and I

35:18

think for people to understand that it

35:20

just it doesn't just come so

35:22

easy to me to let things

35:24

just roll off my back . I need

35:26

a little bit more tools in my toolbox . And

35:29

so I think sometimes

35:31

athletes can say well , it's easy for me

35:33

to just not to

35:35

deal with the pressure , it's easy for me to not

35:37

be anxious or not worry , it's easy for me

35:40

to do these things . Why isn't it easy for you to do

35:42

these things ? And that's

35:44

where I think the acceptance really needs to come

35:46

, because it's not the same for everybody and

35:49

it's not because the athlete is weak or

35:51

soft or that they don't want

35:53

it as much . What did they deal with in

35:56

their experience of life ? I mean , personally , I had

35:58

some really terrible coaches growing

36:00

up . I mean , in T-ball I had

36:02

coaches who would smack kids

36:04

in the back of the head and scream at kids . In

36:06

high school football I had a coach who

36:08

was demeaning and would kick

36:10

balls at guys' heads and

36:13

all kinds of different profanities on

36:15

the field . So yeah , where the heck do you think

36:17

my anxiety comes from ? Stuff like that

36:19

? So it's , I

36:21

think it's just such an individual experience

36:23

and there has to be some empathy there on

36:26

the part of other athletes to

36:28

really , I think , build this acceptance

36:30

that we're looking for .

36:33

Something that is occurring to me as you're saying

36:35

this too , because I again

36:38

, I mean , I think you're making a ton of good

36:40

points here , but

36:42

if you kind of take a step back and think about

36:44

it , like how silly it is

36:46

that we treat emotions as

36:49

different than other

36:51

things .

36:52

Yeah , I was just thinking this .

36:53

yes , yeah , you know , like the

36:55

parallels here that we could so easily

36:57

make to physical skills and

37:00

how silly it would sound if we substituted

37:02

running for feeling

37:05

Right , like I

37:07

don't need to run , like that makes

37:09

me soft , what the heck I don't need to train

37:11

. Come on , look at me , I'm in a doness , like

37:13

you know , like that's

37:15

the attitude we're gonna have , like , I mean it's

37:17

, we are human , we are all

37:20

human beings and I think , again , that was

37:22

such a big part of what they were talking

37:24

about in this clip . It's like , yes , I'm

37:26

a professional athlete , but I'm a human being and

37:28

part of being human means I have emotions . If

37:31

I'm in an environment that

37:33

is high stakes , that is stressful , that is highly

37:35

scrutinized , of course

37:37

I'm gonna have emotions . That doesn't make me weak

37:39

, that makes me human . And

37:43

to your point , taylor , I mean , maybe for some

37:45

folks they're more adept

37:47

at particular skill sets , like letting

37:49

go of anxiety

37:52

. Well , just like somebody's

37:54

body might respond differently to

37:56

a dose of physical training and

37:59

some people might have to work harder to achieve a certain

38:01

result , we just have this like

38:03

separate reaction , the separate way

38:05

of conceptualizing the mental

38:08

stuff . That makes no freaking sense to me , none

38:10

, and it's

38:12

like we sit here and you know , obviously , having

38:14

a podcast like this , we're trying to raise awareness

38:17

, we're trying to normalize this , we're trying to mainstream

38:19

this . And it just blows

38:21

my mind because , again , Taylor , I'm

38:23

not saying this to you , I realize I can get animated , I'm

38:25

not like yelling at you , Taylor , but it's like it's

38:29

so mind

38:31

blowing to me how we

38:34

just don't connect these dots . It

38:37

seems so obvious . How do

38:39

we not do that ? And you know , I mean , tim , I can

38:41

see you nodding . I want to hear what you have to say and

38:43

you know , at some point

38:45

. Taylor , I would let me . You have such an interesting

38:47

role here too , because you're talking about the role

38:50

that you had on your rugby team

38:52

, where you were the performance

38:54

consultant and now you are on the coaching

38:56

side . Now you are a coach in an

38:59

elite rowing program . It's

39:02

like how do those

39:04

two things marry

39:06

each other ? Like what is it like now to be

39:08

a coach , having come from

39:10

the mental side ? I don't know . I mean it

39:12

just . Do you feel

39:15

like it gets harder to thread

39:17

this needle now that you're a coach ? Or

39:19

do you feel like you're able to carry forward

39:22

what you know or what you've learned from

39:25

all the consulting work that you've done , and now that you're

39:27

a coach , you're able to implement ? I mean it

39:30

just blows my mind how we make this divide

39:32

. That's so arbitrary .

39:34

Yeah , that's a good question , Keith . I

39:37

do think about that and I think , as

39:39

a coach , I one

39:42

, I think , have a lot more emotional

39:45

attachment to the performance of

39:47

the athletes and I would say

39:49

, like , as

39:53

a mental performance consultant , I always

39:56

felt that there was this I

39:58

don't know healthy

40:00

distance . I guess Carl

40:03

Rogers described it as a

40:05

distance from a

40:08

client in that you can

40:10

, you could witness

40:12

their reality and not be

40:15

attached to it . And that's kind of

40:17

the way I felt as a mental performance consultant

40:19

, in that I felt like I could

40:21

, I

40:24

wasn't wrapped up in

40:26

their story , and as

40:28

a coach , I feel like I am

40:30

more , I'm

40:33

closer , I'm closer to

40:35

the performance , and so

40:37

I do have I don't

40:39

know , I guess you could call it more skin in the game

40:41

. And so sometimes

40:43

I would say , I

40:46

do get a little clouded by

40:48

the performance element of

40:51

what they're doing .

40:53

And so , if , but , at the same

40:55

time , I also feel like when

40:57

you say that like the performance element of what they're doing , you're saying

40:59

like whether they win or whether they're successful in some

41:01

way you know .

41:02

no , that's a good question . You

41:04

know we do , we do workouts on the rolling

41:06

machines and you know how did you know we did

41:08

? For example , we did a , did a 5K

41:10

last night . It's 5K evaluation

41:13

just of their fitness and and

41:15

you know some guys , you know they performed

41:17

really well and some guys didn't perform really

41:19

well , and it's easier

41:22

sometimes as a coach to be , I

41:24

guess , just a little bit more demanding

41:27

of you know , making performance gains

41:29

. You know , from from test

41:31

to test I mean , and maybe a little

41:33

bit harder to access some

41:36

of that empathy that

41:38

I was talking about as a coach . So

41:40

I don't know if I answered your question directly

41:42

.

41:42

I put you on the spot . I know this is a hard one

41:45

to answer and it's not . I'm

41:47

sure if you had hours to think about it you

41:49

could really get to the bottom of it . But

41:52

, no , it doesn't answer my question .

41:53

No , but but you're right . You're right , there

41:55

is . There is a difference for

41:58

me as a coach , and and here's

42:01

a . Here's a good example actually , when I

42:03

was interviewing for this position , I

42:06

actually had a few different interviews , one of which

42:08

was with a few seniors on the team , and

42:11

one of the seniors asked me how

42:14

would you have a conversation with

42:16

an athlete who was

42:18

frustrated about where they

42:20

, what seat or what boat

42:22

they were in ? Basically , in rowing

42:25

it's like every rower on a

42:27

team gets to compete . It

42:29

depends on what boat they're in , so

42:32

like we have

42:34

the , the first , varsity eight , the second , varsity eight

42:36

, the third , varsity eight , the fourth , varsity eight

42:38

, and so the whole team is boated

42:40

. So every competition we have , they get to go out and

42:42

race Other teams , like a football

42:45

team , for instance . Maybe

42:47

you know a freshman , for example

42:49

, a football team , they might , they

42:52

might ride the bench all season , they might not get

42:54

any playing time , and so they might

42:56

be disgruntled about that . But where

42:58

you sit on a rowing team is kind

43:01

of like playing time is for other

43:03

athletes , so yeah

43:05

. So the senior asked me how would you deal with

43:08

, you know , an athlete who was frustrated

43:10

about where they were sitting or what boat they were in on

43:12

the team ? And there's , I think there's two different

43:14

answers , based on if you are

43:16

a mental performance coach or

43:19

, you know , maybe a sports psychologist

43:21

or a clinical psychologist and

43:24

a coach . I think the

43:26

on the mental performance or psychology

43:29

side . I think it would be more

43:31

so having a discussion about what are the

43:33

underlying beliefs . That are great

43:36

, you know , creating this attachment to

43:38

where you're sitting , and how

43:40

is that impacting

43:43

your self-worth or

43:45

your identity or your confidence and stuff

43:47

like that . And it might be a deeper discussion , trying

43:49

to get to the core of , like

43:52

, what's causing this . And

43:54

I feel like , as a coach , the

43:56

discussion is a little bit more . Being

43:58

on a team is not about your personal

44:01

goals . It's about supporting

44:04

the team . So if you're going to support

44:06

the team the best in this boat , then

44:09

that's where , like that's where

44:11

you're going to sit . And you know

44:14

we talk about just being

44:16

able to be , not to worry so much

44:18

about where you're sitting or how much playing

44:20

time you're getting . It's just about , like , how

44:22

can you support the people around you the best

44:24

and how can you continue to move up ? So

44:26

, like , as you can hear , like on

44:28

the coaching side , it's a little bit more like

44:31

hey , get with the program , like

44:33

this is how we do things here and you need

44:35

to help support the other people in your

44:37

boat because you're on a team . And

44:39

then on the like , mental performance side

44:42

or , you know , sports psychology side , it's

44:44

a little bit more like let's get to the bottom of , like

44:46

how you're feeling here , and so

44:48

that's how I think I would

44:50

like approach things a little bit differently in

44:53

those two different roles , if that makes

44:55

sense .

44:56

That's so interesting . Yeah , I'm just like loving

44:59

hearing you talk about this has really bringing me back to , like

45:01

, my rolling days and my coaching days

45:03

, and I I

45:07

don't know and maybe part of my brain will maybe continue to reflect

45:09

on this specific question of like huh , what

45:11

do these two roles , how would these two different roles respond

45:13

? But I mean to take

45:15

like a hard right turn into

45:18

the mindfulness space . You know , like

45:20

the vulnerability that you were sharing in

45:22

terms of what comes up for you as a coach around

45:25

, like I'm so much more invested

45:27

in the performance pieces

45:29

, the results you know like , and

45:33

it in some ways , it really

45:35

gets at the acceptance thing that we were

45:37

talking about before . And

45:39

this paradigm shift that

45:41

we are inviting athletes and

45:43

coaches to consider . Right , that

45:45

, not that winning doesn't matter , not that you shouldn't care

45:48

about it , but like maybe there's more

45:50

to it than that and , in

45:52

fact , maybe if you allow yourself

45:54

to have this like just wider

45:56

circle of priorities , it actually

45:58

makes the winning piece more

46:01

possible . Right , In the sense that

46:03

you know and this is , I think it's

46:05

a , in some ways , an unfair pressure that gets put

46:07

on coaches right , that , like , your success as a

46:09

coach is based on whether your team wins or

46:11

loses , you know . But you could be a phenomenal

46:14

coach and just be happen

46:16

to be coaching a team that is out . I

46:18

mean , if you're coaching a

46:20

team and you've got a bunch of guys who

46:22

are five , eight , you know , 165

46:25

pounds , you know , and you're going up

46:27

against , like the Harvard heavyweights , like

46:29

you're

46:31

just not gonna , you're not gonna win . However

46:34

, you could create a

46:36

phenomenal team , you know . You

46:39

could help these athletes become

46:41

like excellent collaborators

46:44

and teammates . They would absolutely

46:46

be progressing in their physical

46:48

performance , right , but you're also attending

46:50

to their mental and emotional resilience . How

46:52

do you value the experience you just had , even

46:55

when you don't cross the line first , right

46:57

? And how does that resilience translate to

46:59

life after sport , because both athletes

47:01

don't become professionals , right ? So , like

47:03

, how do you , how do you help

47:06

create these like well-rounded

47:08

, adaptable , flexible human

47:11

beings ? That is such

47:13

, I think , like an amazing outcome of being

47:15

a good coach , which may have nothing to

47:17

do with your win-loss record , right

47:20

? And I happen to believe that , if you're

47:23

keeping this whole list to kind of wellness in mind

47:25

, even if there are some ups and downs and someone's

47:27

you know two K trajectory , right , Over

47:29

time they are gonna get faster , they are gonna

47:31

get stronger . And I think by focusing

47:33

on that and saying like you have to be faster and stronger

47:35

every single time we test , actually

47:38

like we were talking about before kind of creates

47:40

that pressured environment that probably makes

47:42

it less likely that they will be

47:44

successful , or at least for some portion

47:46

of them , right , it makes it less likely they'll be successful

47:48

as the stress starts to creep

47:50

up to and surpass their natural

47:53

coping mechanisms . You know , and

47:55

so you know we're asking athletes

47:57

, look at your

47:59

, look at how you approach

48:01

performance and achievement a little bit differently . You

48:04

know , Like , center

48:06

your wellbeing here and recognize

48:08

that sometimes , like the best way to take a step forward

48:10

is in this moment , to take a step back

48:12

. You know you might need rest and recovery

48:15

in order to show up tomorrow to the best of your

48:17

ability . It's not about giving 110%

48:19

every day , because that's not possible , you

48:21

know , and for what it's worth . I actually think that's part of the fear

48:23

we're talking about the clinical mental health stuff

48:26

. You know , Like part

48:28

of the fear in unearthing , some of that is like , oh my God , maybe

48:31

these athletes are gonna have to take time off because

48:33

that might be part of the treatment . I

48:35

mean , in the same way that if you've got an athlete who's experiencing

48:37

overtraining syndrome , you know this thing that we

48:39

make space for in the sport world , you

48:42

know , and the like , the best research

48:44

we have , which is not that great

48:46

in terms of how do you treat overtraining syndrome . It's

48:48

forced rest , that's it

48:50

. It's like you need to take time off . It's

48:53

same thing if you look at , you know the

48:57

mental , emotional parallels burnout , right

48:59

, same deal . Like you need to take a step

49:01

back . You need to be able to , like , recalibrate and

49:03

take time off . Well , yeah , it

49:05

is entirely possible that if you've got an athlete

49:07

who has an eating

49:09

disorder , right , for them to get effective

49:12

treatment , they might need to stop competing for a little while

49:14

. You know , and you need to

49:16

accept as the coach . Right

49:18

, that actually to your point , taylor

49:20

, like we're part of a team here , right , like

49:22

that might be the best for the team for

49:25

that one athlete to leave and get healthy

49:27

and come back next season , even if they can't

49:29

contribute this season . Right , but

49:32

having been a coach and even I mean

49:34

experienced it too , even as a mental performance consultant , like

49:36

I am attached to the results

49:38

. I wanna see them get better , but I care

49:41

about the wins and the losses . Absolutely

49:43

. It is hard to

49:45

let go of this stuff , you know . But I

49:48

think what you were sharing speaks

49:50

to exactly the challenge but also the direction

49:52

we need to go in . It's like , yup , I need to look

49:54

at this , my attachment and like say

49:57

, can I embrace

49:59

more trust in this process and like

50:01

that group of guys who didn't do so well on

50:03

their 5K , right , like , can

50:06

I not get too bad out of shape about that ? You

50:08

know , and like recognize , you know this

50:10

was an earlier podcast

50:13

this season , but kind of where we all one

50:15

of the things we talked about was like how you , how

50:17

you're orienting to these athletes and or

50:19

to any person in your life who's experiencing some

50:21

problem , and you ask , well , what's wrong ? What's wrong

50:23

with that person ? Did they do well on the 5K ? What's wrong ? Or

50:26

like , what do they need ? You

50:28

know , like what is this person ? Yeah , these guys

50:31

didn't do that great . What do they need ? What's

50:33

going on with them ? How can I help ? How can I create

50:35

this holistic support that's gonna allow them

50:37

to do better next time , rather than punish

50:39

them for , like , not doing well this time

50:41

because they need to do better ? I think like that

50:43

pressure that

50:46

can really end up creating a

50:49

lot of the distress , the issues that

50:51

then create the need right

50:53

for the clinical mental health stuff .

50:56

Well , maybe I can take the last word here for

50:58

a sec , because I know we're up

51:00

against the clock here a little bit . We need to wrap

51:02

up our conversation . But

51:05

no , I mean , I think what both of you are

51:07

saying is fantastic and , you

51:09

know , I think it's important to clarify

51:12

that . You know , we are not suggesting

51:14

that coaches are supposed to be psychologists

51:17

and psychologists are supposed to be coaches . There is absolutely

51:19

a shift in

51:23

responsibility

51:26

. Like Taylor , you are a unicorn , my friend

51:28

, right . Like you are unique in that

51:31

you've kind of done both sides

51:33

. I

51:37

guess I wonder , though , if there could be value

51:40

, like in how you just did that little role play

51:42

in trying to figure out , maybe , like

51:44

, what is the common lexicon

51:47

, what is the common language , how can the two dialogues

51:49

come a little bit closer together ? And

51:51

maybe that's part of what you were talking about , tim

51:53

with like a team approach

51:56

, right , like an intimate , like a treatment team , and

51:59

the coaches being a part of that is , you

52:01

know , because I don't know that every sports psychologist

52:03

is gonna need to go deep with that example

52:05

you were giving , just like I don't know that every coach

52:08

is gonna need to say in somewhere in there

52:10

, and what you're saying to her like , well , don't worry about it , right

52:13

? Like you literally used the words don't worry right

52:15

, which I'm sure you know

52:17

that probably gets hundreds of thousands

52:19

of times a day by coaches across the world

52:22

. I mean , that's a thing . It's

52:24

like how do we kind of bring these two

52:26

ideas a little bit more toward the middle

52:28

so that coaches can be a little bit more nuanced

52:30

and maybe psychologists can

52:32

be a little bit more ? I

52:37

guess the word that I sometimes use is like practical

52:39

or tangible , and how they approach

52:41

it and how they integrate this stuff . And

52:43

maybe that's where

52:45

we'll find more acceptance is if we're

52:47

able to somehow bridge these dialogues in

52:49

such a way that they don't feel so separate . But

52:52

I really appreciate , taylor , your

52:54

candor in what you were saying , because

52:57

you are in a unique position to speak to this and

52:59

I think it is hard

53:01

to kind of hold on to both , depending on the

53:03

world that you're in . I think we're all attached

53:05

to outcomes in different ways and

53:09

, like Tim , I agree it's hard to let that stuff go

53:11

. But

53:14

I imagine it is really

53:16

hard to hold on to some of the

53:19

like . The words you use , taylor , was empathy

53:21

, some of that perspective , maybe that

53:23

broader human perspective when you're

53:25

in the coach's role , whereas when

53:27

you're in the psychology role , I

53:30

think maybe it's not always about understanding

53:32

the deeper reasons , and maybe that gets to

53:34

what you were saying before about your rugby player too . Like

53:37

you're not getting in my head . That's not

53:39

what we have to do , necessarily

53:41

, but giving the space

53:43

for reflection or giving the

53:45

space for curiosity , right

53:47

? I mean , that's so much of what we do in our work is

53:50

just trying to help people be curious , inspire

53:52

that curiosity of the

53:54

why , right ? So you don't

53:56

have to have a whole conversation with your 5K

53:59

athletes why

54:01

didn't you do well or why

54:04

did you do well ? But to invite them to be curious

54:06

about themselves , right ? Like hey , like

54:09

huh , what happened today or what went , what

54:12

went wrong or how can I learn from this

54:14

? Right , I feel like that's what gets lost in so

54:16

much of this is just what can I learn

54:18

from this ? There's so , because of the pressure , it

54:20

can be so stifling . I

54:23

think there's a lot of resistance

54:25

or limited space for just seeing

54:27

these as data points that we can

54:29

learn from and grow , as

54:31

opposed to having a

54:34

very strong reaction to whatever

54:36

the last data point was right

54:38

as an indicator . But

54:41

anyway , this is great . Thank you guys for

54:43

engaging in this discussion . I

54:46

really , as soon as I saw this clip , I was like

54:48

we need to talk about it on here .

54:49

I just think it's such a- . Yeah , thank you for having me . Yeah

54:51

, that was cool .

54:53

Yeah . So

54:55

, as we wrap up just very quickly

54:57

to invite anyone who

54:59

is interested in

55:01

connecting with us with our podcast , we do

55:03

have lots of ways that you can do that . We

55:06

have a wonderful Instagram page at mindful

55:08

underscore sport underscore podcast . We

55:11

also have our YouTube channel where we have

55:13

a great collection of free resources

55:16

that people can use . When

55:18

we have guests on our podcast , they lead exercises

55:20

, meditations . We didn't do that today we had our

55:22

roundtable today but if you're interested

55:25

in having a bunch of free

55:27

and wonderful exercises , check out our

55:29

podcast YouTube channel . You can also

55:31

connect with our MSB Institute online

55:33

at wwwmindfulsportperformanceorg

55:37

, and we also have Facebook and Instagram

55:39

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55:41

can connect with me , dr Keith Kaufman , on

55:44

Instagram or on Twitter , and my handle

55:46

at both is at mindful sport

55:48

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55:50

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55:52

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55:54

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55:56

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55:59

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56:01

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56:03

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56:05

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56:07

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56:10

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56:14

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56:16

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56:25

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56:30

there will be links to that in our show

56:32

notes . So thank you

56:34

guys , thank you for everyone who listened

56:36

, and thank you to our wonderful colleague , carol Glass

56:38

for her support behind the scenes , and

56:41

we will see you all next time . Thanks

56:43

, music .