0:11

Hi and welcome back to the Mindful Sport Performance

0:14

Podcast . I'm Dr Keith Kaufman , I'm

0:16

Dr Tim Pino and

0:19

we are very excited to be joined today by Brady

0:21

Howe . Brady Howe has been with

0:23

the Phoenix Sun since 2018 and

0:25

began serving in the role of Vice President

0:28

of Health and Performance since the 2021-2022

0:31

season . In his role

0:33

, he's tasked with overseeing the Sun's health

0:36

and performance , including the medical

0:38

team , the performance team , sports

0:40

science team and nutritional components

0:42

, all with the goal of optimizing

0:45

performance while ensuring long-term

0:47

player health . Brady

0:50

recently served with the Suns as

0:52

their head strength and conditioning coach , slash

0:54

assistant athletic trainer in 2018-2019

0:57

. Brady joined

0:59

the Suns following one season as assistant

1:02

athletic trainer with the Atlanta Hawks and

1:04

prior to joining the Hawks , he spent three seasons

1:06

with the G-League affiliate of the Utah Jazz

1:09

. He

1:12

was also the athletic trainer for the NBA D-League

1:14

Select Team at NBA Summer Leagues in

1:16

2015 and 2016

1:18

in Las Vegas , and also served as

1:20

an athletic trainer , strength and conditioning coach

1:22

for the D-Leagues Utah Flash from

1:24

2009 to 2011 . So

1:27

quite an impressive background in

1:29

basketball and the NBA . Brady

1:32

is a graduate of Weber State with a bachelor's

1:34

in athletic training , and he holds a master's in

1:36

sports conditioning and performance

1:38

from Southern Utah University

1:40

. So thank you so much , Brady , for

1:42

joining us today . We're really , really excited to pick

1:44

your brain a little bit and talk with you about your

1:47

experiences .

1:50

Wow , thank you for having me , first

1:52

and foremost . And then I didn't know you were going to

1:54

read the entire thing . That goes

1:56

sometimes too

1:59

far back . I feel like to realize how

2:01

many times I've bounced around . But

2:03

yeah , thank you for having me .

2:06

Yeah , well , you did In full disclosure . You

2:08

sent me a bio . I felt like it didn't do

2:10

you total justice . I had done a little bit of homework

2:12

before and just found your bio online

2:14

and I was like I want to share some of this other stuff . He's

2:16

got quite an extensive background , so

2:19

hopefully it was okay for me to go into some of those depths

2:22

, just because I think it's relevant and want

2:24

everyone to know how experienced and credentialed

2:26

you are .

2:27

Right , yeah , You're really talking about it here , right

2:30

?

2:31

Oh , thank you Absolutely . I

2:33

mean , it's just the journey , right , like

2:36

we all come from a long journey . So

2:38

I realize now , after you hear it every

2:40

once in a while , that my

2:43

goodness , how many places have I been , how many

2:45

relationships have I built , and

2:47

so , yeah , I just I wasn't expecting that one to come

2:49

out today . So it's not just a reminder , it was just

2:52

a reminder .

2:53

Yeah , awesome . Well

2:55

, we look very forward to picking your brain on

2:57

some interesting questions today . But

3:00

before we go into that , tim , you

3:02

wanted to lead us in a very brief practice how we like

3:04

to start our episodes , just to kind of get us in

3:06

the headspace for chatting

3:09

.

3:09

Yes , yeah , let's all just take a moment

3:11

to be here to

3:13

get centered . So , everyone listening

3:15

, if it's available to you to find

3:19

a way to come to stillness and

3:23

, yeah , if you can let

3:25

your eyes close . What

3:28

I wanted to introduce is something I like

3:30

to think of as kind of a

3:32

meditation hack . We're often

3:34

asked to center our attention

3:36

somewhere , maybe

3:39

our breath . You know , you find a particular

3:41

point of focus , but that can be kind

3:43

of ambiguous sometimes , and

3:45

a practice that I was talking to me a long time ago I

3:47

really liked just . I mean , invite

3:49

everyone to lick

3:51

the tip of your forefinger and

3:55

touch the spot between your eyes . Just

4:00

moisten that spot between your eyes , sometimes

4:02

called our third eye . You

4:07

can let your eyes close , let your hands

4:09

rest on your lap , sitting nice and

4:11

tall . Bring

4:14

your attention to the feeling of evaporation

4:16

. It's

4:20

likely that spot on your forehead

4:23

feels a bit cooler than

4:26

the skin around it . Perhaps

4:29

you can't even sense the skin around it , but

4:31

that spot you

4:33

just touched may

4:36

be sticking out in your attention

4:38

. Let

4:45

your breath find a natural rhythm . No

4:50

need to make it any deeper or

4:52

slower than it is right now . Just

5:00

watching this spot , perhaps

5:09

watching with interest and curiosity

5:12

. Sure

5:19

, some of you understand the science

5:21

behind evaporation . What's happening on your

5:23

skin right now , in this moment . If

5:26

you can appreciate that process with a

5:28

sense of awe , wonderful

5:30

, though

5:33

if it's a bit too distracting to get into

5:35

the weeds , just see if you can step

5:37

back from explaining

5:39

what's happening and simply be

5:42

with it , just

6:00

seeing what arises in the stillness

6:02

, again

6:18

and again , as many times as you need

6:20

. If

6:31

you like doing this on

6:33

your own , you can sit and

6:36

watch that spot all

6:38

the way until it

6:40

disappears . There's

6:45

no more differentiation between

6:47

that spot and

6:49

the rest of the skin on your forehead , though

6:58

, for right now , choose

7:03

to start

7:05

to bring our attention back

7:07

first

7:09

into the rest of your body , points

7:12

of contact between

7:15

your body and

7:18

the world around you . Your feet on the floor

7:20

, your

7:24

hips in the chair , feeling

7:33

some sounds . What's

7:35

happening around you , maybe

7:42

wiggling fingers and toes , feeling

7:44

some movement , knowing

7:51

you feel ready .

8:07

Open your eyes , we'll come

8:09

to our conversation .

8:12

Thanks , Tim Appreciate

8:15

that .

8:19

Yeah , Brady , right before we signed on and

8:21

did this practice , I know

8:23

we had started to chat just a little bit about

8:25

maybe what we would talk about today

8:28

. I know Tim has been eager to ask

8:30

you this particular question . Maybe this is a

8:32

good place for us to start . We

8:35

were very fortunate that we got to

8:37

know you a little bit recently . You attended our MSP

8:39

instructor training . For

8:41

people who like to listen to our podcast , you probably

8:44

have heard us say many times that us

8:46

taking a more mindful based approach

8:48

. We tend to look at things very

8:50

holistically . That's

8:53

a big part of what we talk about in our instructor training

8:55

. Tim , I guess you

8:57

wanted to ask this . You had a bit of a follow-up question for

9:00

Brady . Given the work that he does , I'll turn

9:02

it over to you . Sure , yeah .

9:04

We're just diving in . That's awesome . I like that . Well

9:08

, we do talk about this

9:10

holistic perspective and really prioritizing

9:13

wellness , because I think we believe a

9:15

well athlete , a happy

9:17

athlete , is going to perform better

9:19

. Of course , and

9:22

in my work with college athletes , sometimes

9:25

what ends up being

9:27

, quote unquote best for the athlete is to even

9:29

step away from the sport . Sometimes that's what

9:31

their wellness requires . There's

9:35

one thing if you're thinking about D3

9:37

college athletes not on a scholarship who can step away

9:39

from a team , but someone

9:41

in a system like the MBA

9:43

, where millions of dollars are at stake , where

9:45

they spent perhaps decades getting

9:48

to that point the idea of prioritizing

9:51

their wellness , such that

9:53

even to the point where you might suggest like , hey

9:55

, maybe it's time to take a step back I

9:57

find myself so curious in those systems

10:00

, is

10:02

that a compatible philosophy ? Is

10:04

it possible to really prioritize athlete

10:06

wellness in that way when so much

10:08

else feels like it's involved ?

10:13

Wow , it's a great question that

10:16

is hard to unpack

10:18

. It's an entirety , so

10:21

it depends

10:23

on the situation . I

10:27

think , just going back to the one , just

10:29

the very brief practice we just

10:31

did to the

10:33

place in this world that I'm currently in

10:35

is being introduced

10:37

to mindfulness , being introduced to

10:39

such a powerful component

10:42

of the mindful

10:44

side , the mental skills , and just that

10:46

side of athletics , which

10:48

is the world I operate

10:51

in , for these

10:53

athletes , for these coaches and the

10:55

staff that I work so very closely with

10:57

. None of us are

10:59

different

11:02

in that realm . Right , we have to

11:04

walk this life and we have to live this

11:06

journey Isolated

11:09

, in the sense that you're born with this

11:11

yourself and you're

11:13

gonna end with yourself , and so , for

11:15

me , I have taken a very deep

11:18

path recently down

11:20

this route of figuring

11:22

out what is mindfulness

11:24

, what is this component that a lot

11:27

of us are we're just

11:29

skipping over . We know that it's

11:31

important . I think , to answer

11:33

to your question again , it depends . It's

11:36

so . Many of us are in different phases

11:38

in our lives where , as we were

11:40

touching on a little earlier , it can be An

11:43

aspiring athlete who doesn't

11:46

play anything past middle school

11:48

or high school , which is , I gotta

11:50

say , seventy percent of

11:52

all athletes , you're not playing

11:54

any longer than your high

11:57

school age and that's really hard

11:59

. You know it's really hard thing to accept

12:01

it . That dream

12:04

, those aspirations are over

12:06

and now what's next ? You

12:08

know it's . It's the exact same for those

12:10

who Finish at

12:12

college . You know , you see the sad

12:14

stories of senior days are being

12:16

eliminated in March madness . And you know

12:19

that every day , gradual

12:21

fluid and you don't want it to end . Of

12:25

course we build up these professional

12:28

athletes like there are models , there are

12:30

heroes , like what could they ever have

12:32

to worry about ? And then

12:35

you realize , every day for them is

12:37

that feeling where you

12:40

know you can build up to

12:42

be a franchise player who are on billboards

12:44

and shoe deals . Or

12:46

you know you could have one bad performance

12:48

and , you don't know , maybe you're sent to the minor

12:51

leagues or you're just , you

12:53

know , to retire and

12:56

it could be an injury and so many scenarios

12:58

that come to mind . That's Realizes

13:01

that we are not prepared for this

13:03

. And it's not just the players , coaches , staff

13:05

. Sometimes you know

13:07

, you thought that you had a life in this

13:10

world of ambitions and you're

13:12

gonna do these things , and then it's over

13:14

and People are

13:16

left being broken down or running

13:19

into those scenarios of , you know , hitting

13:21

rock bottom , some will say in their mind

13:24

, before they realize that

13:26

there are things you can do , there are Mindful

13:29

approaches to be prepared for

13:31

. But , more than anything , the thing that

13:33

I've loved about your work and

13:36

mindfulness and everything that I've gone into

13:38

is just Be present

13:40

with it , be bring awareness

13:42

to it , and I

13:44

think that there's a lot more power

13:47

in that and people have ever realized or

13:49

Acknowledge . You

13:51

know . So , again , this is

13:53

a long winded answer and I think I can

13:55

go on forever , which we know

13:57

, that that's what this is all about , but that

14:00

for me , it just depends .

14:04

I think that's a great answer and

14:06

I think it's a fair answer as well

14:08

. A couple things came to

14:10

mind real quick , just just as you

14:12

were responding . One of them

14:14

is one of the things that fascinates me about you

14:16

, brady , is obviously

14:18

, from my read your bio , you come from a

14:21

physical background right strength

14:23

and conditioning and athletic training and I

14:26

know you and I have had a couple of conversations

14:28

and it sounds like you take very seriously

14:30

trying to round out , learning about the mental

14:32

side and I believe you're pursuing your

14:34

, your CMPC , which is , which is phenomenal

14:37

and you know , as somebody

14:39

who's actually putting his money where his mouth

14:41

is in terms of doing his diligence with the mental

14:43

side . It's thrilling for us

14:45

and

14:47

so clearly you're somebody who sees the value

14:50

In doing this right

14:52

and investing in the mental side

14:54

, and so I guess there's an extension of what you're

14:56

talking about here . I wonder , like

14:58

do you feel like that's an uphill battle

15:01

in professional sports ? And maybe that's

15:03

a different way of asking the same question that Tim

15:05

was getting at . But I've

15:07

had the fortune of working in pro sports this

15:09

season with a team and you

15:11

know it happens to be a team that's pretty receptive to

15:13

this kind of thing , but in general , what

15:16

I've noticed is that there's been a lot

15:18

of progress in terms of , you

15:20

know , sports psychologist or sports psychology

15:23

or even clinical psychology being part of the fold

15:25

and professional organizations , but maybe not always

15:27

having the ear Of all the stakeholders

15:30

or all of the players . You

15:32

know , it's okay , this is a thing , but but do we actually

15:34

listen to this person ? Do we actually prioritize

15:36

wellness in a meaningful way ? And

15:39

so you seem , and like you're in such a unique position

15:41

to make such a difference , and so

15:43

I wonder if you could speak about that , about your own transition

15:46

to the mental side , from

15:48

the physical side , and kind of what

15:50

the receptivity to that has been within

15:52

the Psalms , within your experience in pro

15:54

sports .

15:56

Yeah , I again I guess

15:58

to tap into your question and , tim's , I

16:00

do believe there is a

16:02

very holistic approach and

16:05

the environment that I live

16:07

in Is a blessing , you

16:09

know it's . It's one of those where , at

16:11

the highest level , you know , the

16:14

most minute things make a big difference

16:16

. There is the 1% that makes a

16:19

competitive edge and when

16:21

you , when you live and operate in this space , you

16:23

realize that that's , that's whether

16:26

you're possibly going to win a championship

16:28

or not , and you know we're . But

16:30

I do come from a very different background

16:33

. You know we talked about this where

16:35

I kind of use term from the inside

16:37

out where so many people

16:39

have had , you

16:41

know , the aspirations to get into

16:43

this field of working with athletes and they

16:46

want to get to a certain position of

16:48

pro sports or a particular

16:50

sport or title . I've

16:53

, I'm blessed to be there and

16:56

I obviously come from more of a physical

16:58

route because for me this

17:01

is just who I am . If I'm going

17:03

to go down a path , I'm

17:05

going all the way and you know , maybe that's

17:07

a good thing . There's obviously some some

17:10

not so good things about that . With

17:12

you you're all or nothing . But

17:14

I've realized that

17:16

so much of my life has been focused

17:19

or hyper focused on the physical , whether

17:21

that's my own experiences of injuries

17:24

that Limited me from

17:26

reaching my true potential to

17:28

surgeries , rehab

17:30

and

17:32

everything in between . You know , I'm not the biggest guy

17:36

in the world . I'm literally to a T on the average

17:38

male . You know , by standards

17:40

I'm 510 , 170 pounds , and

17:42

so I , you

17:45

know , was able to reach college football status

17:47

and , but that's

17:49

a sport I probably shouldn't have been playing

17:51

. So I go back to some of

17:53

my own experiences , realizing that I

17:56

would practice so well and I would

17:58

do things to make teams

18:00

I probably shouldn't have been on , and

18:03

but when it came to the lights around

18:05

, there were a lot of my own firsthand

18:07

experiences from performance , anxieties

18:09

and things that Limited me , and

18:12

I always just thought that it was a physical element

18:14

, like I'm not fast enough , strong

18:17

enough , sharp enough , skilled enough , and

18:19

. But then there was

18:21

always the anxiety

18:23

driven things or the fear , things that

18:26

I realized now were

18:28

such a bigger element that I

18:30

never acknowledged . Why didn't

18:32

wanna ? I didn't want

18:35

to accept them , and so , but

18:37

now you know , maybe , as they say , you

18:39

get a little wiser and you realize that there are the

18:41

things . I spent my whole

18:43

life not only wanting to be an athlete , but

18:45

now exploring and uncovering

18:48

what drives athletes , what drives successful

18:50

teams , and realizing , at the level that

18:52

I'm Been fortunate to experience

18:55

, those one

18:57

percent things matter and I and

18:59

I kind of now I'm just trying to organize

19:01

my perspective with working with some of the best

19:03

athletes and coaches in the world what

19:06

are some of those things , those competitive

19:08

advantages , and we spend so much

19:10

time On the

19:13

physical and the skills that the

19:15

technical , the technical but you

19:17

know , we all know relationship are important

19:19

. We all know how we conduct ourselves , how

19:21

we think , and the golden question

19:24

for us , or for me and this situation

19:26

of integrating the mental side

19:28

of things , is how much

19:30

of the game is mental ? You know

19:32

you just throw that any coach , any player , and

19:34

of course I don't know where you're going with

19:36

this , and it's just like man

19:38

, a hundred percent , someone say eighty something , whatever

19:41

number it's gonna be . You , they

19:43

know that the next question is coming okay

19:45

, well , how much of your game , your

19:48

mental game , are you training or integrating

19:50

with all the physical ? That's what

19:52

they hate , because they know that question is coming and they know

19:54

the answer is probably a lot closer to zero , and

19:57

so I've accepted that

19:59

from realizing that's what limited

20:02

me , I realized that that's a

20:04

big thing , it's limiting all of us , and

20:06

so I just realized

20:08

again , coming from the inside out of living in

20:10

the training room , living in the operating

20:12

room with you know , like working with doctors

20:15

, living with physical therapist , everything

20:17

from the strength conditioning and all the things that I've

20:19

built up for decades I

20:21

realized that it's important as they are . There's

20:24

, there are limiting factors of not

20:27

integrating the mindful side of things

20:29

. And and then I realized

20:31

to the then the NBA and

20:33

just the higher level sports work , and

20:36

it is big business , it is

20:38

high expectations , it is a

20:40

big production and

20:42

if you're one of fifteen players let's just

20:44

say one of five players who are on the court

20:46

, predominantly , there's millions

20:49

and millions of eyes

20:51

on you , of comments being made

20:53

of you , stories of perceptions

20:56

, judgments , dollars , so

20:59

much that that just build

21:01

this wall of Clouds

21:04

of judgments , fear and self

21:06

limiting , things that go on , that

21:09

it does become

21:11

much more than just being able to sit

21:13

down and reflect . This is how I'm

21:15

feeling , this is what's going on like

21:17

, this is All these things

21:19

. So to answer your question , was so

21:22

much of that going on and how my story is

21:24

come from , more of wanting

21:26

to be the athlete and then trying to do everything

21:28

I can to prepare the athlete . There's

21:31

this big piece that's missing and for me

21:33

, that's what I'm spending a lot of my time in

21:35

now , realizing that it

21:37

is much more for me than to just enhance

21:39

performance or to optimize Strengths

21:42

or to build on weaknesses that the athletes

21:44

may have , but to just have a field

21:46

of a feeling , life and a fulfilling

21:48

experience because we wanna . We

21:51

wanna build constraints of time or

21:53

outcomes or stats and dollars

21:55

and contracts and everything in between

21:57

. But Sometimes , again , the

21:59

best conversations I've had that have led me down

22:02

this path with my athletes past , current

22:04

they Realize

22:06

that they're putting way too much stock in those thoughts

22:09

, past or future , rather than just

22:11

enjoying , like when you're currently

22:13

at . And I'm gonna flip it . This is a random one

22:15

, but one of the questions or statements

22:17

I love to throw in our players is I

22:20

want you to close your eyes and vision the 10 year

22:22

old version of X

22:24

player and say look at

22:26

what . Tell them what you've accomplished , tell

22:28

them where you're at today , tell them what you're experiencing

22:31

and what would that young athletes

22:34

say ? They all they're

22:36

have no idea that . Just be in heaven , right

22:39

. And now come back to the present . How

22:41

do you feel today , and Just

22:43

try to put some things in the perspective that there's

22:45

so much more about this journey and these opportunities

22:48

that should be viewed as a blessing

22:50

, and they're very

22:52

seldomly they are . There's just so much around

22:54

us . So , to both of your questions

22:57

, I think that how can you not

22:59

want to take that Such

23:02

a critical like element to put

23:04

into the equation and to , because

23:06

it is much more than just performing

23:08

at a high level ? You know , if you can find a

23:10

way to truly be mindful and to do

23:12

some of these skills to put you in a really good frame

23:15

Of reference , then

23:17

what's in front of you at

23:19

that moment ? You're going to give it your best and you're

23:21

going to accept it . You're going to love it and

23:23

embrace it . Once

23:25

the next moment comes , worry about that

23:27

moment . But so these are

23:29

things that I'm learning to do in my own life

23:32

, because I feel like , again , all

23:34

or nothing you've got to , you've got to walk

23:36

the walk , talk to talk , and so for me

23:38

, I'm trying to find ways to Bring

23:40

some of these skills exercises

23:43

However

23:45

you want to turn them out there into

23:48

action . You know , I don't think that anybody

23:50

is Too big to do these things

23:53

. Nobody is too Field

23:55

, or you name it . I mean these

23:57

, these simple things are powerful

24:00

, and I think that they are . They

24:02

are truly the competitive edge

24:04

, even at the highest level .

24:08

Well , yeah , I feel , like you

24:10

know , in the

24:16

reality , like this

24:18

could end in any moment , you

24:20

know , and not even this could end . This will

24:22

end for every single one of those players . It

24:25

will end . It will

24:27

. We don't know how , we don't

24:29

know when , but like it will , you know

24:31

. And just there is something

24:33

I feel like incredibly scary

24:35

about facing that reality . You

24:37

know , I'm and people invest so

24:39

much time and effort and energy to try to make sure

24:41

it will never end , right . But

24:44

then I think what you're kind of alluding

24:46

to is like , well , the more we invest in

24:48

that , the kind of , the

24:50

more resources we are wasting , because that's

24:52

an inevitability , it's not something that we can

24:54

actually stop or prevent , and

24:57

so we might as well be here now , because

24:59

this is our best chance at Actually

25:01

continuing on and enjoying

25:03

this and say bring this . I love that , that

25:06

thought experiment of like , talk to your 10 year old self

25:08

and just look at how much you've accomplished . Like . But

25:11

I also recognize how , how

25:14

hard a pill it is to swallow , right

25:16

For a lot of these , I'm imagining , for

25:18

a lot of these players , like , are

25:20

they receptive to this ? You

25:22

know , when you're trying to get them to think

25:25

in this . I would imagine it's really different way

25:27

, like what kind of resistance do you experience

25:29

with them ?

25:30

Yeah , again , the best answer is it always

25:32

depends , you know , like person

25:34

, a person , and these are

25:36

all relationship based . In my mind

25:38

, it's their relationships I

25:41

have with some of these things , whether it's a

25:43

thought , whether it's a Person

25:45

, whether it's an exercise . So

25:48

there are players who are very

25:50

open to these things , whether they've had a hardship

25:52

, whether they have experienced things that are

25:54

just there's no other way than

25:56

to just get through them . And

25:58

, in the same context , there's players who've

26:00

gone through similar hardships that are very

26:03

Distance and they want to

26:05

isolate themselves from such things because

26:07

it's just , it's the environments

26:09

that we've come up through , right

26:11

and so , but I

26:13

will say , players , it all depends

26:16

on those relationships . If you can have

26:18

a relationship built with them that

26:20

grows over time , it fosters , it develops

26:22

into trust , and then you have the

26:24

right opportunity to present some of these things

26:26

and thought provoking ideas

26:29

or things that they would consider . You

26:31

learn through both of a few interviewing

26:34

or a lot of other concepts

26:36

that bring this to the table

26:38

and at the right time

26:40

, the right experience

26:42

. A lot of these players are very open

26:45

to these things . I've had

26:47

A lot of valuable

26:49

experiences with players in During

26:51

competition that have

26:53

realized that these things that we've been working on

26:56

, all I gotta do is kind of give him A

26:58

certain look , a certain you know , I mean like

27:00

motion , if you will , to Find

27:05

your breath momentarily , shut

27:07

it off , whether it's five seconds or

27:10

five minutes . And

27:13

those are the things that I'm finding a lot of value

27:16

, not just for myself but for everybody . Because

27:18

Once you can Bottle

27:21

up all these things that you're experiencing , whether

27:23

it's an in game or in a hectic situation

27:25

in life , these are very valuable

27:28

things that you can always refer to their free

27:30

, they are what

27:32

you make of them . But you realize

27:34

after time that these things can

27:37

help me , just OK , like let it go

27:39

and so . But so

27:41

it always depends . It always depends on

27:43

the player , the situation , their experience

27:45

, and it's a never

27:47

ending process . That's where , once again

27:49

, don't put a constraint on it . You haven't done

27:52

a motivation

27:54

or a Meditation

27:57

, any of these things , and it's just a

27:59

one and done . You know you have to kind

28:01

of continue to remind them . It's no different than

28:03

the physical aspects that we've touched on , whether

28:05

it's their skills , whether it's their

28:08

physical training . This is a

28:10

nonstop process and that should just be a part

28:12

of the embrace .

28:14

It's yeah

28:17

something said .

28:18

You know

28:20

you were talking about yourself being all or nothing

28:22

, but I mean , actually

28:25

there's so much nuance

28:27

to everything that you're saying and to

28:30

your path . I think there is

28:32

something really powerful about

28:34

being I like the way you explain this sort of like inside

28:36

out right being somebody who

28:39

does come from a physical background , who

28:41

has the trust of the players , who's already embedded

28:43

in the organization and and

28:45

now this is something that you're trying to bring

28:47

right as part of as part of

28:49

the approach there . I

28:51

know that , like I've talked with

28:53

a lot of folks who are in similar

28:56

roles in professional sports . One comes to

28:58

mind who's working in the NHL right now

29:00

and he said to me , kind

29:02

of like off off the record , basically

29:04

, you know like yeah , I love sports , like

29:06

, I'm open to sports like , but frankly , when

29:08

I've had sports like come in , I just haven't

29:10

seen it make that much of an impact in in

29:12

this kind of organizational

29:15

setting . It's like there's all the intention there , it just

29:17

doesn't get the buy . It necessarily and

29:20

and I think that is not an

29:22

uncommon experience is that it's it's

29:24

almost kind of set up in

29:27

a way to be challenged

29:29

because , you know , maybe there is a role of

29:31

a sports psychologist who comes in

29:33

and maybe certain key stakeholders

29:36

haven't fully bought in , or maybe that sports psychologist doesn't

29:38

get full access and so isn't able to

29:40

offer the full services

29:43

that he or she is capable of , and and

29:45

so then that's that's kind of what people believe

29:47

sports psychology is all about is this sort

29:49

of limited , limited taste that

29:51

they get . And and here you are

29:53

, somebody who already has the ear of the

29:55

player , someone who already has a critical role within

29:57

a professional sports organization , who's bringing this

30:00

stuff . That feels really

30:02

different to me , that feels really refreshing . That's

30:04

part of what I was so excited

30:06

to talk to you about today is because , you

30:09

know , I don't see you as an all or nothing

30:11

kind of guy . I see you as somebody who's

30:13

really doing his diligence and saying , hey

30:15

, I have this great background

30:17

in physical training and

30:19

and strength and conditioning , but I

30:21

also need to do my homework and really cross

30:24

my T's and dot my eyes with learning about

30:26

sports psychology and mental skills training

30:28

, because that's an entirely different subspecialty

30:32

that that so often in

30:34

pro sports , I think is still seen as other

30:37

right , and you are the

30:39

embodiment of integration . I think that's

30:41

that's really significant .

30:45

Yeah , it's again that inside out component

30:47

. I use that phrase because

30:49

, again , so many people are trying to get into sports

30:52

from an outside , working their way

30:54

into sports , whereas I've been in this and

30:56

I realized that I had to take a step back

30:58

to realize that this is such an important thing

31:00

that should be integrated , that

31:02

this is this is everybody wants

31:05

to ask what's the secret ? What are they doing

31:07

behind ? You know that unveil , that curtain

31:09

, curtains , and this is just one

31:11

of those things that I think that

31:13

the best teams , the best athletes

31:15

are tapping into , and it's

31:17

it's just one of many things

31:19

that come to it . But , to

31:22

your point , the , the reason I

31:24

went down this path was because

31:26

I've always had good relationship with the

31:28

guys . You know it's . It's like any

31:30

job you work in . Any job , you're going to

31:32

connect with some . You're not going to connect you

31:34

know so well with others . This

31:37

is just , this is life , and so

31:39

I started to realize that

31:41

, even in the role that I've been , you

31:43

know , we do have team psychiatrists

31:46

and sports psychologists that we have , I

31:48

mean , within certain professional sports

31:51

. It's almost the borderline

31:54

, blank check . A model approach of life

31:56

will go get the best . We need the best resources

31:58

, the best modalities , best facilities

32:01

. So you start to realize , okay

32:03

, well , let's , let's do our due diligence and

32:05

let's bring this staff and these resources

32:07

so that there is no reason let's

32:09

limit the excuses of why we can

32:11

bring the best environment to our teams

32:14

. And so you're building

32:16

so much of this production . It

32:18

is and we joke internally that

32:20

we work in a traveling service . You know

32:22

, because you travel , you

32:24

, you unpack it , you set it up , you play

32:26

one game and within 24 hours

32:28

broke it back down . You load it up , you go to the next

32:30

city . But with so much production

32:33

going on , it's , it's

32:35

just , it's a lot to bring together

32:38

. You know , and as this builds and builds

32:40

, you know , nowadays players even joke

32:42

. It's like the almost a three

32:44

or four to one ratio of coach

32:46

, like , like skills coaches to

32:49

player , and so it

32:51

continues to grow , it continues to evolve

32:53

. It's not right , not wrong

32:55

, it's not good or bad , it's just , it's what it

32:57

is . And with that I noticed

33:00

that for psychologists

33:02

and people that come in and they're amazing

33:05

, I have nothing but admiration

33:07

for what they do . There's such a valuable

33:10

skill set and part of our

33:12

resources . Just like an orthopedic

33:14

physician is right , guy breaks his bone

33:16

. Of course that's their specialty . You need to

33:18

call on them . But that

33:20

stigma is breaking

33:22

up quite a bit nowadays and

33:24

I'm so happy about that . But there's

33:27

still the experts in that area

33:29

and there's such a need for them

33:31

, and not just our

33:33

team but teams across the board . I network

33:36

with so many valuable people in football

33:38

, soccer , baseball that are trying to do

33:40

this at a high level , and our experience

33:42

in the same thing you said he's where there's just

33:44

there . They're not getting the

33:47

reach or the experience or the

33:49

I want to say outcomes , because Not

33:52

getting what you think you would get out of it and

33:54

there's a number of reasons

33:56

for that . But I started to realize with my

33:59

relationships with the guys , in my daily

34:01

engagement with the guys , whether it's on

34:03

the table , with treatments , taping

34:05

, rehab , to you know

34:07

, lifting in the weight room and everything

34:09

above and in between . I just started

34:11

to realize that I want to do a better

34:14

job of trying to bring this to

34:16

life and trying to support that

34:18

staff . But also , how

34:20

can I keep bringing a beginner's

34:22

mindset to the players , of

34:24

educating them and realizing that this

34:26

is so powerful ? This is going to make

34:28

you , literally my

34:30

mind , unstoppable , everything you do , from

34:33

a skill set and a physical component

34:35

, you bring in this much

34:37

of just an inner game , I call

34:39

it , or the mental game that feels all these

34:41

things . This is not just for your sport

34:43

, this is for your life out of sports . This is what's

34:45

going to set you up . So when sports do and

34:48

you never want to talk about it , but when it

34:50

happens , because it will You're

34:52

in a good place and you know what to do

34:54

, you know how , you know how to go to these places

34:57

, that you're going to be okay . And so

34:59

I just started to realize you

35:01

know , it's not like I'm here to take their

35:03

job , I'm here to support them

35:05

and I just wanted to learn on my own how can

35:07

I can find more , more

35:09

enjoyment , fulfillment out of my own

35:12

daily work , out of , and

35:14

so as I started to tap into these things

35:16

, I realized how much I truly enjoyed it and I

35:18

needed it . I really needed it , and

35:20

I'm just trying to now do the

35:22

same thing from the inside out . How

35:25

do I harness , you know , my

35:27

daily relationships , but also bring our

35:30

team of psychiatrist , psychologist

35:33

and really just support one

35:35

another to show how valuable they are . And

35:37

I think , once the players start to realize that there's

35:40

a lot more reach , because the

35:42

players oftentimes in sports and

35:44

we've done this , we have have that staff

35:46

here every day . They're just a part of the staff . But

35:49

there's still players that they look at this like

35:51

, rather than being the strength coach or the team

35:53

doctor , like why , why

35:55

is there somebody here , kind of strength in me , and

35:57

I mean trying to talk to me , or , you know

35:59

, like the teams , the teams doing

36:01

something to evaluate me , and that's that's

36:04

going to hurt my contract status . They're going to

36:06

think that I'm mentally fragile

36:08

. I'm not . You know , I'm not confident

36:10

. All these things where you

36:12

know the players will sometimes go outside

36:14

of the team and find their own . You

36:17

know mental health practitioners

36:19

, you name it . That's great . I there's

36:21

no right or wrong , but we're just trying to

36:24

make sure that we do everything we can

36:26

to bring that to life . And that's kind of

36:28

the current path and journey that I've

36:30

been on , because I just again realized for myself

36:32

that was a limiting component for me , and not

36:35

just as an athlete , but as

36:37

a co worker , as a son , the brother

36:39

, as a father . These are things that that

36:41

are just so valuable that how could you not want

36:43

to bring this into your everyday and

36:46

your everyday life .

36:49

Yeah , I mean , yeah , there is something that feels

36:51

so powerful about the , about

36:54

this way of being , about this way of seeing

36:57

the world . And we , we interviewed John

36:59

Kevins in a while back and he said something

37:01

to that effect of , like you know once , even

37:03

if it takes a while , you know once , people get a , get

37:06

a taste of this like they don't . They don't want

37:08

to go back to looking

37:10

at these different parts of their life

37:12

as siloed

37:15

, right , it's like as

37:17

so . I mean , we use

37:19

the word independence often as a really , as a really

37:21

good thing . Like you want to be independent , but

37:24

the reality is no one and nothing

37:26

is independent . We're all . Everything is

37:28

interdependent , right , and every

37:30

single answer you give into , even from

37:32

your response to your bio , it's like about

37:34

relationships . You know , we're reflecting on all

37:36

the man , all the relationships I built . Like everything

37:38

is about relationships . I just like

37:40

love hearing that , because it feels like

37:43

so , so

37:45

aligned with , I think , the

37:47

philosophy of mindfulness

37:49

and this idea that you know nothing

37:51

stands alone by itself . Even that orthopedic

37:53

surgeon , right , like well , guess

37:56

what ? Your nutrition plays a role in how your

37:58

bone is going to heal ? Right , like

38:00

your mental and emotional state is going to going

38:02

to play a role in how motivated you are to do

38:04

the PT that you're going to need to act . It's like it's

38:06

all connected and

38:08

to think that that right

38:10

, and I think that the stigma piece of the mental health , like

38:13

to think that's somehow separate , like oh

38:15

, yeah , I see the strength and conditioning coach and I see the PT

38:17

and that all makes sense to me . Oh , but this mental

38:19

thing is so outside and they're just evaluating

38:21

me and that's somehow negative . Like no

38:24

, can we bring that under the umbrella too and

38:26

see , like actually it's all of a piece

38:28

, it all needs to work

38:30

together to have someone like

38:32

you , kind of from the inside , kind

38:35

of really emphasizing that coming from

38:37

these trusting relationships right

38:39

, I really love that . Like it's not a binary of

38:41

like oh , either they're receptive to this or they're

38:43

not . Like no , in the context of

38:45

a trusting relationship , that's going

38:47

to make someone more receptive to maybe a really challenging

38:50

idea or to see things differently . That's

38:53

just such an important message to get out

38:55

there .

38:58

Yeah , absolutely , absolutely . I

39:00

mean it has to be a part of it . I

39:02

mean this , looking at even

39:04

the separation of your questions , holistic

39:06

versus what you want , whatever you want to term

39:09

it . You know Western medicine and all these things

39:11

like this . There's so much of a bridge

39:14

and interconnectedness to it all and

39:16

I sometimes use that reference too . Like

39:18

you absolutely can't

39:20

do anything physical without

39:22

knowing how your brain works

39:24

and knowing how thoughts work and how

39:26

your you know motivation , confidence

39:29

or lack thereof , all these things

39:31

like to go through these . You know

39:33

to work on the dexterity of the skill

39:35

sets they do , and

39:37

it's all connected and

39:39

we don't want to think about it . And I do believe

39:42

there's a lot of it that people don't want to think about it because

39:44

it's not objective . You

39:47

can't quantify these things of saying

39:49

, oh well , I want to get

39:51

bigger , faster , stronger , more skilled , I

39:54

want to become more efficient at three point shooting

39:56

, I want to have my first dump . You

39:59

can put a physical , objective thing

40:01

that we've just accepted as a normal

40:03

thing today that okay , well , I know

40:05

how to do that . I want bigger arms . I

40:07

know I got to go do curls , but

40:10

when it comes to the other side , okay

40:12

, I want to get more confidence . Okay , how do

40:14

I do that ? I mean , most people

40:16

just say go get more confident , go read some

40:19

self-help books and get some motivation

40:21

. You know , like it's just I

40:23

, so even for me , I just how do I find

40:26

some valuable resources that point people

40:28

in a direction to realize that if

40:30

these are the things that you value

40:33

and are important to you , this

40:35

is going to take you down a much further

40:37

path of just life

40:39

than it will be in performance , and that it

40:41

will coincide with anything

40:44

physical that you believe in .

40:49

We'll have to talk about this another time because I know

40:51

we're running short here and I want to be respectful

40:54

of your schedule , brady , but I

40:57

love what you're saying and actually my the thing

40:59

that I'm geeking out on the most now in

41:01

sports psych is exactly what you said

41:03

trying to make this stuff more

41:06

tangible , because I was like , ooh , we should talk

41:08

about how well , actually , mindfulness is something

41:10

that you can measure and you can measure some

41:13

of the physiological changes that happen

41:15

with mindfulness practice and

41:17

you know , that's that's really something that I'm

41:20

really excited about in terms

41:22

of maybe future directions of our MSBE

41:24

work and mindfulness

41:26

in general , because I think you're spot on . I

41:30

think that that is going to be such a big

41:32

part , hopefully , of ultimately overcoming some

41:34

of the stigma is making

41:36

this as tangible as possible and demonstrating

41:38

through data and through

41:41

hard , hard

41:43

information that they can see , that they can touch

41:45

that . Oh , that's what

41:47

confidence means . Oh , okay , when I

41:49

practice this , that's what

41:51

changes , you know , and I am hopeful

41:53

, I'm optimistic , I think , as you said , you explained it so

41:55

well I think there has been so much more

41:57

openness and I think the sports psychologists

41:59

have become a part of that entourage you were describing before

42:02

the traveling circus . I

42:04

think it just takes people like you , who are

42:06

these insiders , who who

42:09

already have the relationships and can really

42:11

show what this can really do . I

42:13

think once people see that and there's

42:16

some data to back that up , I really think

42:18

that's going to be the next evolution of our field . I

42:20

think that's going to be huge . So I

42:22

just want to thank you for all of your work and I

42:24

know this isn't why you do what you do , but the ambassador

42:26

for sports psych that you're becoming , I think it's

42:28

it's actually really , really critical to our field

42:30

it's been

42:33

a wonderful introduction

42:35

for me to explore this and realize

42:37

that it's an absolute need

42:39

and it's not all bad People

42:42

want to put that , oh , I

42:44

don't need that , something's wrong with me , like

42:46

.

42:46

No , it's the complete opposite

42:48

. When you can spin it and realize this might

42:50

be exactly what pushes

42:52

you into your personal

42:55

flow state . You know , I'm not saying that flow

42:57

has to be you literally tapped into Kobe

42:59

Bryant mentality , like it

43:01

could be . What is flow for you in

43:03

this moment ? That and

43:06

I'm just realizing that it's that we

43:08

all need , that . We all need that . So

43:10

it's been an absolute joy to

43:12

through that class of mindfulness

43:14

class that I had , as Michael is my professor

43:16

and we were obviously using your book

43:18

and your work , which is just

43:21

I'm very appreciative of , which is why I

43:23

had to reach out and kind of give

43:25

that sense of gratitude and then , obviously

43:27

, just again for me , like if I , if

43:29

I need to know it , then I'm going to go down that

43:31

path and I'm going all in to try to

43:33

figure out how I can maximize

43:36

that and how I can spread it to

43:38

others . That's awesome .

43:41

Well , I know , as we sign off here , you

43:43

know you are also starting a podcast

43:45

. So if you want to take a moment and plug that

43:47

and also , you know , for

43:50

folks who want more information about you , any

43:52

, any ways that they can be in touch , social media

43:54

, that kind of thing , anything you want to share , please , please

43:57

, feel free .

43:59

Yeah , obviously we have haven't done anything

44:01

that's that's launched just yet . It's been kind of

44:03

a conversation and

44:05

passion project in the making to

44:07

talk about certain things such as this , just

44:09

life and sport , and

44:12

so that's , that's on the horizon . You

44:14

know , that's something that we're kind of biting

44:17

into a little bit more . Co host of mine . But

44:19

I think that I'm

44:21

probably the most active on

44:23

social media Instagram

44:26

. I mean , I'm not a big social

44:28

media person , but if anybody was trying

44:30

to find me or reach out , it would be Instagram

44:32

, which I believe my handle is just be

44:35

. How be h o w e sticks

44:37

? I said I

44:39

even be honest about that , and the other

44:41

will just saying you know , back in the day , my younger

44:44

sister , who's a graphic designer , just said you have

44:46

to be on this and set me up . And

44:48

here I am . So

44:50

I'm like said definitely not big

44:52

on that , I don't live in that world . I

44:55

have it and people want to reach out .

44:58

Also not on social media . I know

45:00

I'm watching .

45:01

I'm watching Tim Laughy is like yep , I know

45:03

exactly what you're talking about . So

45:06

well , I'll take I'll take one moment and

45:08

plug our social media , since our podcast

45:10

is is on some social media if you want to

45:12

want to connect with us . So

45:14

we are also on Instagram . Our podcast

45:17

. You can follow it at mindful underscore

45:19

sport underscore podcast . We

45:21

also have a YouTube channel that

45:23

you're welcome to visit where we post all

45:25

of our exercises that begin our episodes

45:28

. So we'll post the episode that Tim led today

45:30

and that's a great free meditation

45:32

library for anybody who's interested in

45:34

experiencing a bunch of exercises

45:37

from wonderful people from all around the world who

45:39

have , who have led these on our podcast . Also

45:43

, our MSP Institute has an online

45:45

presence . You can find our website at

45:47

wwwmindfulsportperformanceorg

45:50

and we also have an Institute

45:53

Instagram page and Facebook page and

45:56

you can find me , dr Keith Kaufman . I am

45:58

on Instagram and also on Twitter

46:00

, slash X , I guess we can say now

46:02

, and my handle is at mindful

46:04

sport doc , and our

46:06

book is still out there mindful sport performance enhancement

46:09

mental training for athletes and coaches , which , brady

46:11

, you are kind enough to plug for us . We appreciate

46:13

that and so we

46:15

always appreciate any , any ratings

46:18

and your reviews that you'd like to give our book or

46:20

our podcast . So

46:22

thank you again to to everyone who listened

46:24

. Oh , and I should take a second and thank our wonderful

46:26

producer , taylor Brown , and our colleague

46:28

Carol glass for all the first support of our podcast

46:30

behind the scenes . And now

46:33

thank everybody who , who ? listened and thank

46:35

you so much , brady , for joining us today

46:37

. I'd love to continue this conversation

46:39

sometime . I feel like we just scratched the surface in terms

46:41

of picking your brain on some of this stuff , so maybe you

46:43

can come back on again and join us . But

46:46

thank you so much for your time today .

46:48

Yeah , absolutely . I mean , like to your point

46:50

, I feel like we can . I could just talk

46:52

and talk and talk about this forever hours until

46:55

I realize I'm just rambling , but I

46:57

had a great time and I double back . I

46:59

also wanted to make the point , you know , of Tim

47:02

kind of leading the brief sessions to begin Me

47:06

myself learning how to do that at a much higher

47:08

level . I think to your point , the resources

47:10

you guys have in your library , from guided

47:13

meditation to that's

47:15

a great starting point that I just want to advocate

47:17

for that because it's myself trying to learn how

47:20

to enter that space . A lot of times

47:22

people will grow from others and

47:24

aren't naturally just inclined to

47:26

just build their own personal meditative

47:28

space and just something that follow and it takes

47:30

time . So I wanted to make that point

47:32

with Tim leading that today , because that's

47:35

something that I think people need to hear so

47:37

that there's not an awkwardness this just

47:39

find what works for you and I do think that

47:41

the resources you guys have are very

47:44

helpful .

47:45

Thank you , that means a lot . We appreciate that very

47:47

much .

47:49

Thank you for having me .