0:12

Hi and welcome back to the Mindful Support Performance

0:14

podcast . I'm Dr Keith Kaufman , I'm

0:16

Dr Tim Pinnell and we are thrilled

0:19

to be joined today by Dr Matt Bowers

0:21

. Matt , thank you so much for making

0:23

the time for us today . We appreciate it . Oh

0:25

yeah , my pleasure . Just

0:27

a little introduction to Matt . Dr

0:30

Matt Bowers is a faculty member in

0:32

the sport management program within the

0:34

Department of Kinesiology and Health Education

0:36

at the University of Texas at Austin

0:38

. He earned his doctoral degree in

0:41

sport management from UT Austin in 2011

0:43

. Prior to coming to UT Austin

0:45

, he graduated with a BS and MS

0:48

in sport management from the University

0:50

of Florida , where he also worked with

0:52

the Gators football and women's basketball programs

0:56

. Before going a coaching career in college basketball

0:58

, he instead pursued studying the systems

1:00

we use to develop athletes , with an emphasis

1:03

on understanding how to reimagine the

1:05

youth sport experience . Dr

1:07

Bowers works extensively in the field

1:09

with a range of sport organizations

1:11

, in both research and consulting capacities

1:14

. He has been intricately involved

1:16

with the Aspen Institute's Project Play and

1:18

has served on the science board for the President's

1:21

Council on Sports , fitness and Nutrition

1:23

. He has published research studies

1:25

related to the impact of sport participation

1:28

on creativity and the value

1:30

of sandlot slash unstructured

1:32

sports for children . His work

1:34

has been featured in Sports Illustrated

1:36

, sxsw Wired , the Atlantic

1:39

and the Wall Street Journal . So

1:41

probably anyone who's listened to our podcast before

1:44

can see why we'd want to

1:46

talk to Matt , because his work sounds

1:48

incredible and fascinating and incredibly

1:50

relevant and important to what we

1:52

do . So , again , we're just thrilled

1:54

to have you , matt . Thank you so much for joining us

1:56

today .

1:57

Thank , you for the long introduction

2:00

that kept going . I appreciate it . Well

2:02

, I actually needed the heat so much today . There's

2:04

a lot of stuff .

2:06

I do try to condense these . We

2:08

do these bios quite regularly , but for

2:10

you it's like everything there is important

2:12

. I feel like everyone kind of needs to know that

2:16

you are legit , that you have this background . You're

2:18

in academics , but you also have coaching

2:20

background and now you are involved

2:22

in this playwork that we're going to talk about

2:24

. It's really fascinating stuff , so I didn't want to skip

2:27

anything . It seemed important . Oh

2:29

, thank you . So before

2:31

we dive into our conversation with Matt

2:34

Tim , you were kind enough to want to begin

2:36

our episode with a little exercise .

2:38

Yes .

2:39

Yeah .

2:40

Let's get centered . And

2:42

so , if it is available to

2:44

you , if you could just find

2:47

some stillness , just take

2:49

a moment , bending or sitting

2:51

If

2:54

you'd like to close your eyes let

2:59

your spine get straight in

3:01

whatever position you might be in , whatever that

3:03

might feel like , so your chest can be nice

3:05

and open to

3:09

really just let your body breathe in

3:12

a way that feels comfortable

3:14

, natural , not

3:22

trying to breathe in any particular way , just

3:27

noticing what it feels like to

3:30

take a full breath and

3:34

then let it go . As

3:43

you bring your attention in , I

3:48

want to invite you to

3:51

reflect on a

3:53

memory or

3:56

some awareness of someone in your

3:58

life who

4:01

has been or is struggling

4:03

maybe

4:07

a physical injury or a medical diagnosis

4:10

, maybe emotional

4:12

turmoil , someone

4:17

you know and care about , who's

4:20

experienced hardship and

4:28

observe any feelings of

4:31

compassion that arise

4:33

whatever

4:37

that may feel like the

4:43

image of giving this person a hug , sense

4:48

of warmth in your chest . it's

4:51

no right way . Notice

5:03

your reaction to their suffering On

5:12

your next exhale . You can

5:14

let that go Now

5:18

bring to mind a person

5:21

you know who is wanting

5:23

. This

5:26

might not be a person you know personally

5:29

. Maybe you bring to

5:31

mind a refugee

5:34

, an unhoused person , someone

5:39

who can't afford the medicine

5:41

they need someone

5:44

who doesn't know where their next meal is coming from

5:46

. And

5:57

again , just observe what arises

5:59

, perhaps

6:01

the

6:04

seed of generosity and

6:08

impulse to want to give , to

6:12

share some

6:14

of what you might have with

6:18

this person who doesn't have

6:20

, and

6:41

your next exhale , you can let that go . Now

6:49

simply take a moment to reflect on what

6:51

came up , the

6:57

feelings of compassion , of

6:59

generosity that may have been there . Notice

7:05

if those feelings felt

7:08

good . Now

7:15

notice the way that

7:19

those feelings came

7:21

from suffering . Notice

7:35

the interconnectedness between

7:41

what we

7:43

often aspire to be compassionate

7:46

and generous people and

7:51

the necessity of suffering to generate

7:53

those feelings . Just

8:00

allowing

8:05

this to let you relate to your own

8:07

suffering just a little

8:09

bit differently , not

8:14

to always try to make it go away

8:16

, but to recognize the

8:20

ways it can contribute to these

8:23

other

8:25

things we

8:27

tend to want to invite in . You

8:30

can see the fullness of our experience Need

8:45

more breaths in this reflection , perhaps

8:52

wiggling fingers and toes , reconnecting

8:54

with the points of contact between your

8:56

body and

8:58

the ground beneath you . Whatever

9:03

you may be sitting in , the

9:06

noises around you , you

9:11

know . When you feel ready , open

9:14

your eyes and come back to

9:18

the space you're in .

9:28

Thanks Tim . Yeah

9:30

, I mean I love doing these with you

9:32

because I feel like I learned

9:35

so much and we've worked together for

9:37

a long time now , but I don't think I've ever done

9:39

a practice quite like that with you before , so

9:41

that was really interesting . That was very cool .

9:44

Yeah , I was aware it was like going

9:47

to be a little different , but

9:51

it was really what was on my mind , it was what was

9:53

coming up for me , so I was like

9:55

all right , let's go with it .

9:57

Interesting . All right

9:59

, yeah , very cool . Well , I know you're coming off

10:01

of a conversation that you were having

10:03

with a team that you're working with , so I

10:05

know . Well , I've got a zillion questions for Matt

10:08

, so I want to move on from this in a second . But I just want to ask

10:10

was there something on your mind in particular that prompted

10:12

the sort of other

10:15

suffering , empathy and

10:18

compassion ?

10:19

Yeah , so

10:23

in part , yes . One of the things

10:25

I was talking with the team about was kind

10:29

of not into any

10:31

or didactic of a way , but self-determination

10:34

theory and relatedness . And

10:39

I was asking some of the athletes I've been working

10:41

with this team for seven or eight years that's

10:43

a college team so

10:45

there's lots of turnover but some of these athletes I've been working

10:47

with now for a few years and I was asking them

10:50

how is this work that we've been doing impacted

10:52

your

10:55

relationships on the team ? And

10:57

this one athlete was talking about how they're

11:00

like yeah , now when they

11:02

make a mistake or

11:06

she makes a mistake , the

11:08

response is so automatic of like

11:10

, hey , come on , let it go , it's cool , come

11:12

back , we need you , we need to be together . And

11:18

the importance of not trying to push away

11:20

the mistake , the

11:23

suffering , but to be like , oh , actually

11:25

that suffering , that mistake , was now

11:27

the root of this renewed

11:30

connection , this

11:32

sense of acceptance and this creation

11:35

of safety , like , oh , I can't make a mistake and that's okay

11:37

and it's all of a piece and we actually need

11:39

the suffering . And that's actually

11:41

been very present of my mind , because I actually

11:44

was at this meditation retreat , like

11:46

this past weekend and that was like a big part

11:49

, I think , of what I was reflecting on

11:51

. So it really has been heavily

11:53

on my mind this week .

11:54

Interesting . Well , thank you . Thank

11:56

you for sharing that Well

12:00

, matt . I know

12:02

it's a shame Taylor can't be here today

12:04

, because I know you've known our producer , taylor Brown

12:06

, for quite some time and you've

12:09

been our producer .

12:10

I think we both had hair when we first knew

12:12

each other . Me too .

12:14

probably We've been down here 11 since , yes

12:16

, yes , we all share , except for Tim who

12:18

just keeps growing his hair longer just to rub it

12:20

in our face .

12:20

That was something .

12:22

I just hate that guy . But

12:26

we've tried to do something a little bit different this season

12:28

on our podcast , where

12:31

in the past we always

12:33

kind of spotlighted on guests

12:35

and there were specific people

12:37

we wanted to talk to . And

12:39

this year we decided to be a little more question-driven

12:42

, like what are the issues , what are the

12:44

questions that drive

12:46

us that we're really curious about and want to explore

12:48

? And as we were sitting

12:51

down to make a list of our questions , one of the ones

12:53

that came up is around youth

12:55

sport , specifically like this contrast

12:58

between competition and play and

13:01

what are the implications and what do we do

13:03

into our kids , essentially in the world of

13:05

youth sport . And as this question came

13:08

up immediately , taylor said oh , I know

13:10

the perfect guy we need to have on the podcast and

13:13

he told us about you and Tim and I got super fired

13:15

up about what you're doing

13:18

and about the work that you're involved in

13:20

, and so just tell us a little bit

13:22

about you , about your space I know

13:24

I read your bio but just how

13:26

you kind of got into this world of

13:28

play and achievement .

13:30

Yeah , yeah , and thank you for having me . It

13:33

is a bummer that Taylor can't be here

13:35

. I want to give him a shout out

13:37

real quick , because he

13:40

did his master's thesis under

13:42

me and it was so

13:45

good and I was desperately

13:47

begging him to stay on and do a PhD

13:49

and he had other aspirations at the

13:51

time , which I supported , of course . But

13:55

yeah , he was like one of the ones that got away

13:57

because I think he has

13:59

a scholarly brain

14:01

in the way that he thinks about things . So

14:05

, yeah , he's been a good pal for

14:07

a number of years now . And

14:10

I'm grateful to him for connecting

14:13

all of us together here today

14:15

. So yeah , I

14:17

mean , I think in terms of people who spend

14:19

a lot of time thinking about free

14:21

play within this context

14:24

of sports and youth development

14:26

and athletes , there

14:29

aren't that many of us who are kind

14:32

of in that particular lane

14:34

. I think a lot of us think about these things

14:36

and

14:39

kind of come and go from them . But this is

14:41

something that has fascinated me for

14:44

years , going back to when

14:47

I was on a sort of coaching trajectory

14:49

. I was a graduate assistant with the Women's Basketball

14:52

Program at the University of Florida . I

14:56

helped co-found an AAU program

14:58

and coach the highest level team

15:00

as well . And

15:04

one of the things that I was really

15:08

fascinated by was how

15:10

little fun it was . Everyone was having it's

15:15

tragic comic , but

15:18

I kind of kept coming back to this like

15:21

we get to do this . This

15:23

is amazing . I know the stakes can be

15:25

high , I

15:27

don't make light of that , but

15:30

I was just shocked at how little fun it

15:33

was . No-transcript

15:35

, that kind of got me thinking , you

15:37

know , as I started

15:39

maybe evolving away from coaching , which

15:41

at the time was a much less intellectual

15:44

space as well , I think it's evolved

15:46

in some positive ways over

15:49

the intervening years but

15:52

yeah , I

15:54

didn't feel like I would necessarily

15:56

be able to be fulfilled and be able to

15:58

pursue questions that were fascinating

16:00

to me . You know

16:02

there's still stuff I miss about not

16:05

coaching . You know we're getting into the fall

16:07

and October in particular really hits

16:09

me with basketball season starting

16:12

back up . I

16:14

guess I'm fortunate that you know a lot of

16:16

the things I loved about coaching I

16:18

get to do now in . You

16:21

know , working with students right like helping

16:23

individuals and groups

16:25

try to reach their

16:27

potential and understand what that potential

16:29

might be . So I still get , I

16:32

scratch that itch a bit . I became fascinated

16:34

with like , okay , well

16:36

, when let's think about my own journey

16:38

, like , when was I having the most fun ? Like

16:41

starting to kind of like deconstruct this a little

16:43

bit , and I kept going back to

16:45

this particular

16:47

location with my friends

16:49

in middle school and into

16:51

high school and we all played on

16:53

the you know the basketball team

16:56

, you know the formal basketball team

16:58

, but we spent so

17:00

much time in the backyard of one

17:02

of my friends' houses and when I think about my favorite

17:04

sports moments it's playing on that hoop

17:06

. Yeah , and

17:08

why , you know why is that and what

17:11

? Why am I connecting with that ? Interestingly

17:14

, that that person is Dr John

17:16

Avery , who is one of the leading

17:18

like addiction psychiatry researchers

17:21

at Cornell Medical

17:23

School now , so one of my longtime best

17:25

pals . But , yeah

17:28

, why was that ? Why was that my favorite

17:30

memory , you know ? And so then , starting to understand

17:32

what is it about how we develop

17:34

athletes , how we

17:36

coach them , how we

17:39

onboard them and progress

17:41

them through their sporting experiences , where

17:43

, you know , I became kind of fascinated

17:46

with like I'm involved in this

17:48

system , you know , like I'm , if

17:51

anything I'm , I'm operating at a

17:53

, at a place within

17:55

this kind of the systems we we

17:57

use to develop athletes were like I'm

18:00

getting to work with the winners right

18:02

, like the ones who are , who

18:05

are excelling in this context and

18:07

it's still not fun , you know , like , and we're

18:09

still not enjoying ourselves . So it's

18:12

, it became this fascination , right

18:14

, like . So why is that ? And that kind of led

18:17

me back to the

18:19

origins of like . Why

18:21

do we even play sports to begin with ? What's

18:23

the function of sports been in society

18:26

and human development and and

18:28

all of these other factors that that really

18:30

drove me down

18:33

to a very evolutionary

18:35

level of like , human

18:37

play . How is that

18:39

played a role ? How have we

18:41

evolved around that , both as

18:43

a species , but also as a as a culture

18:46

as well ? And so , yeah

18:49

, that that's my fascination is are

18:52

there , are there things that are elemental

18:54

to this experience that you

18:57

know in the work that I do these days that we are

18:59

depriving more

19:02

and more kids of , then then we

19:04

have , at any point , at least here

19:06

in the U S , at any point in our kind

19:08

of modern history , we

19:10

think about kids and sports and play

19:13

and all that stuff . So , yeah

19:15

, it's a . It's a very pernicious

19:17

and difficult thing to sort

19:20

of disentangle , you know , because

19:22

of the way that that things operate , but

19:25

figuring out how we make sports more

19:27

playful , you know , and the role that that

19:29

can play , and not just creating better sports

19:31

experiences , but in creating

19:33

better athletes like those don't , those

19:36

aren't mutually exclusive , and

19:38

so , as we think about how

19:41

we design experiences to get the most

19:43

out of people , we've been

19:45

doing it wrong in

19:47

many ways and I

19:50

I try to be very dispassionate

19:52

and academic , right , I try

19:54

not to evangelize about

19:56

the way things should

19:59

be or this or that , but

20:02

it's hard not to . You know , when you're in

20:04

this space and you and you , you're

20:07

, you know you're on the sidelines , you're in

20:09

the , you know you're in with parents

20:12

and coaches and you're seeing what

20:14

you see and you know you , we've all

20:16

experienced this to a certain extent . So

20:19

, yeah , so thinking about how we

20:21

re-infuse

20:24

the , the sport

20:26

experience for kids , with things

20:29

that are going to help them have

20:31

a better overall developmental

20:33

trajectory .

20:36

And so I mean , I I know

20:38

our conversation , or I I

20:41

very much hope our conversation goes to

20:43

like , and what does that look like ? You

20:45

know , but I guess I find

20:47

myself fascinated . First , and

20:49

at the risk of asking you to put on like the

20:52

Professor Bowers hat , like

20:54

can you , can

20:56

you speak to , like this evolutionary

20:58

piece ? Like , what is it about

21:00

our nature as human beings and

21:02

why we are drawn to play in

21:04

the importance of it ? I'm just like I'm so curious

21:06

to hear more about that .

21:08

Yeah . So I mean , I think it's easy to forget

21:11

that play is

21:13

how we learn , you

21:15

know , and how we've evolved to learn , and

21:17

so you know . Sometimes people will come

21:20

up to me and they'll say well , you

21:22

know well what's the benefit of ? Free play . It's

21:24

like I'm human existence right

21:26

. You know like not , I'm

21:29

not actually usually that that snarky , but like

21:32

you , you it's everything

21:34

it's cognitive , it's physical

21:37

, it's social , it's emotional , like

21:39

it's it's foundational for all of these pieces

21:41

. So it's

21:46

so easy to kind of like lose sight

21:48

of that when we , when we go into this achievement

21:50

oriented context that has been

21:53

designed and

21:55

delivered kind of by and for

21:57

adults yeah , and

22:00

so it's

22:02

. It's like it's like we're speaking

22:04

a different language really and

22:07

we're not there's a , there's a common

22:09

aspect to this that needs

22:11

to be , needs to be recognized

22:14

, because we can't we

22:16

can't bring it back in without understanding

22:18

that it's was always

22:20

there .

22:22

Yeah , I wanted to ask you and you're like

22:25

the perfect person to ask this question . So

22:28

I mean I pride myself on being a scientist

22:30

practitioner . You know I try to . Obviously

22:33

I have a practice . I consult , I work

22:35

with athletes , with others , and

22:38

so I have my kind of observations of

22:40

what I've seen over the course of that

22:42

part of my career and kind of married that to to

22:45

the science and

22:47

I've kind of developed this pet theory in

22:49

in my applied

22:52

world that

22:55

I want to see like if , if what

22:57

I've experienced kind of jives with

22:59

what you've studied and and kind

23:01

of what , what the broader trends are

23:03

, cause I've referenced this on

23:06

other episodes

23:08

that we've done and and

23:10

something that's been . So I taught sports psychology

23:12

for over a decade and

23:14

one of my favorite studies to mention

23:16

was this study made you probably are familiar

23:18

, I imagined , with it . It

23:21

was a study that was done in the mid 90s by Ewing and

23:23

Seafelt , this massive survey

23:25

on why do kids in

23:28

the U S play sports organized and

23:30

more recreational sort of like , in school

23:32

or out of school sports , and so

23:34

they did this massive survey and and

23:36

the top reasons that kids gave for

23:39

playing sports . You know this sort of younger

23:41

school , a elementary school age . Number

23:43

one was fun , for both boys and

23:46

for girls . Other

23:48

things were like

23:52

learning something new you mentioned learning a moment ago

23:55

getting better at something , getting

23:57

exercise , having having an experience

23:59

with their friends , and also

24:01

the the challenge of competition , right

24:03

, sort of pushing themselves to higher and higher levels

24:06

. And so what has always struck me

24:08

about that list when you talk to young

24:10

kids and this has been my experience , I don't work a

24:12

lot with very young kids , but it

24:15

seems like a lot of them tend to be intrinsically

24:17

motivated and and have a

24:19

system in place that facilitates

24:21

learning , that facilitates skill development . And

24:24

then here's where my pet theory part comes

24:26

in . It seems like around the age

24:29

of 12 , this is kind of the age that

24:31

I've identified and I'm curious to hear what

24:33

you think there's this pivot point where

24:36

things get quote unquote serious and

24:38

instead of it being about play or

24:41

about learning or about skill development , it

24:43

becomes more about winning , it makes

24:45

, becomes more about making the team , and

24:48

I think what , what folks like Tim and I see is

24:50

that's what opens the door to things like anxiety

24:53

, relationship issues , some

24:55

of the stuff that ends up culminating in a knock being

24:58

very fun , right , and

25:00

what they lose sight of are more of those

25:02

intrinsic motives that got them into sport

25:04

to begin with , or at least got them hooked on

25:06

sport to begin with . And

25:08

we kind of know that extrinsic motivation

25:11

eats intrinsic motivation , that that's a

25:13

thing . And so I

25:15

have found that with like later adolescents

25:17

that I've worked with I'd say athletes between the ages

25:19

of like 14 and 18 or 14

25:21

and 20 , a lot of the work is on

25:23

helping them rediscover what

25:25

they knew when they were eight . So

25:28

all of that to say , I'm just kind of curious what you think

25:30

about my pet theory about this sort of developmental

25:34

model . I guess you can call like what , what is

25:36

, what is your work ? Tell us about what , what I'm

25:38

saying ?

25:39

Yeah , so you've touched on a number

25:41

of things . You

25:43

know the , the idea of trying to under

25:45

understand what are the elements that

25:48

kids find to be motivating

25:50

. You know about participating in sports

25:52

, so this

25:55

I can . Her colleagues at George Washington

25:57

have done some studies called the fun map studies

25:59

around sports and physical

26:02

activity and found , more recently

26:04

, found very similar things to what

26:06

what you cited you know . So the

26:09

stuff that we tend to emphasize

26:11

winning

26:14

, you know , playing in tournaments

26:16

, trophies , these

26:18

sort of external types of things

26:21

are rated . The

26:23

things that we prioritize and how we , how

26:25

we develop and , you know , deliver sports

26:27

experiences are rated much

26:29

lower than you might

26:31

expect for kids in the , in

26:33

the grand scheme of what's driving them to

26:36

want to do this stuff . It's very

26:38

much the things that you noted , you

26:40

know having fun overcoming

26:43

a challenge , being in a team

26:45

setting . You know , having a coach that

26:47

treats you well and , and you know , kind

26:49

of believes in you , all

26:51

that kind of stuff . So check

26:53

, yes , right , like then , we're still the data

26:55

still suggesting that that's , that's

26:57

the reality . You

26:59

mentioned 12 being

27:02

this pivot point . I would , I

27:04

would reef , I would . 12

27:07

is very important . I would actually

27:09

recategorize that from a pivot point

27:11

to a cliff . 12

27:14

is when we see participation

27:17

plummet in in organized sports

27:20

. Um , part of those

27:22

reasons are psycholot psychosocial

27:24

, it becomes less fun

27:26

. Right , it becomes more work . Part

27:29

of those reasons are structural . We

27:31

, if

27:33

you're not that great at sports as

27:37

you hit 12 , and I'm not just talking about

27:39

your terrible sports , I'm talking about your average

27:41

at sports Structurally

27:43

speaking , you don't have that many options

27:46

for kids . Yeah , they can maybe keep playing

27:48

a little bit at the Y or whatever

27:50

it may be in a recreational setting , but those

27:52

recreational settings are being increasingly

27:55

cannibalized by

27:58

the emergence of the privatized

28:00

youth sport model that

28:02

is eating up the

28:04

local traditional recreational sports

28:10

options . That

28:14

cliff , the pivot point . Actually

28:16

, in the work that

28:18

I've been involved in , the pivot point

28:20

comes much earlier actually , I

28:23

think that's increasingly one of our challenges

28:25

. The pivot point's coming at seven

28:27

or eight now Instead of

28:29

12, . There was a time when 12 was right , and

28:32

I don't mean that in the wrong sense

28:35

.

28:35

No , this is great . Thank you , this

28:37

is exactly what I hoped you would speak to .

28:39

Yeah . So now what we're doing is we're pivoting

28:43

toward this kind of work-focused model

28:45

so

28:47

early in athletes' journeys

28:50

that

28:52

creates this whole slew of

28:54

externalities and flow-on effects

28:56

and things that are largely

28:58

not good . That's

29:03

really a huge challenge and one that is

29:05

, I

29:07

would say , somewhat unique to our moment

29:09

, or the last two

29:12

to three decades or so We've been on a

29:14

steady march towards professionalizing

29:18

the youth sport experience .

29:22

Definitely specializing . Right , that's the word

29:24

.

29:25

Yeah , and I'm not somebody who's

29:27

my default setting is not anti-specialization

29:30

. I think

29:33

a lot of times that can

29:35

be what portrayed in stories

29:38

and in articles and stuff or the media . My

29:42

default setting is proceed with caution

29:46

around specialization . There are some

29:48

things that , structurally , if

29:51

your son or daughter is going to be a gymnast , you

29:54

have no choice . That

29:57

doesn't make it right . Right , but you've

30:00

got to specialize at age four , five , six

30:02

. Also

30:04

, sometimes you're with a kid who

30:07

gets

30:10

such enjoyment out of it in a way

30:12

that's healthy from

30:15

an identity standpoint that

30:17

it's okay to dabble

30:19

in some specialization . What

30:22

I generally say is that if you're going to play

30:24

some team ball sports , don't

30:27

specialize , because all

30:29

the experiences that you have complement

30:31

each other in terms of your athlete development

30:34

. It's not that

30:36

you're detracting from your child's

30:39

ability to play basketball by having them play

30:41

soccer . Kobe Bryant will tell you that because

30:43

he played soccer he became good at basketball

30:46

. But those things were sort of symbiotic

30:48

. When

30:52

we think about specialization , I think

30:54

one of the real worries right now

30:56

is from

31:00

a physiological standpoint and

31:03

a psychological standpoint we have

31:05

. Specialization

31:07

connects with psychological

31:09

burnout and

31:11

it connects with overuse injuries . You

31:15

look at Little League and the

31:17

amount of UCL

31:21

injuries we're seeing in pictures in

31:23

Little League due to

31:25

hyper-specialization , playing

31:28

year round , overworking their

31:30

arm and

31:33

it giving out . While there's some room for nuance

31:36

on this and I always try to bring a perspective

31:38

of not

31:42

every situation can be

31:44

uniformly prescribed there

31:47

are contexts where specialization is

31:50

something you don't have a choice about or

31:52

something that can be healthy

31:54

for a stretch . It's

31:57

just a matter of these . Those

31:59

are case by case

32:01

, whereas as an academic

32:04

, as research or a scientist , we're

32:06

zoomed out . We're looking at

32:08

this and a student or an athlete

32:10

or a parent may say , but yeah , but my kid

32:13

loves it . They might and

32:15

that might be okay , but we're talking at the system

32:17

level . How do we do this in

32:19

a way that sets up

32:21

our broader structures

32:24

to be able to move toward

32:26

better outcomes ?

32:31

I was reading up on this a little

32:33

bit in preparation for our

32:35

conversation today

32:38

. I thought this specialization

32:40

topic or debate

32:43

felt so relevant to play

32:45

versus making it so how important it

32:47

is . One

32:54

of the other lines of evidence

32:56

was that , again

32:58

, like you're saying , on average the kids

33:01

who specialize later on in

33:04

their later sport career , not only do they

33:06

have less injuries and less

33:08

burnout , but they got along with

33:10

their teammates better . They were more

33:12

emotionally healthy , healthy

33:14

air quotes , so to speak . They're

33:18

just getting , related to that , happier . They were happier

33:20

doing what they were doing . I

33:24

think from our mindless-based

33:27

perspective . That speaks to me about

33:29

how important the holistic

33:31

view is and how

33:33

resistant , in

33:35

a way , the

33:38

current culture in sport is to that holistic

33:40

view , because there's this

33:43

laser focus on well , if you specialize

33:45

earlier , you get literally more hours

33:47

doing the thing . More

33:50

hours , of course , is going to be better , yet

33:53

there's all this data that

33:55

suggests that . But actually , on the

33:57

whole , if those more hours

33:59

create more injuries or if those more hours

34:01

actually create

34:04

less psychological

34:06

flexibility , if those more hours

34:08

are going to mean your career is going to be shorter , we're

34:11

not seeing the big picture . And

34:13

yet , just like you're saying , there's this

34:15

incredible pressure , this

34:18

seeming societal movement for

34:20

earlier and earlier specialization , like start

34:22

the elite soccer academy at seven years old because

34:25

that's going to be your route when

34:27

the evidence actually says the opposite

34:29

. But then we're just ignoring

34:31

the evidence Again

34:33

. From my perspective it's like why

34:36

is it so hard to embrace this more

34:38

holistic mindset ?

34:41

Yeah , and you brought up a lot of interesting

34:44

, important points that are

34:46

really at the foundation of what we're trying

34:48

to understand . So

34:54

here's what's interesting . I'm trying to not go too

34:57

down the wormhole rabbit

35:00

hole , whatever you want to call it , and

35:02

get real academic-y , but there's some things

35:04

that we have to understand

35:07

and things that I had to understand earlier

35:10

in my career . So I come at this

35:12

from a standpoint of y'all

35:14

. Come on , sorry , I've been in Texas a while

35:16

, but what are

35:18

we doing ? The evidence is here , what

35:21

we're doing is here . This

35:23

seems pretty simple , and

35:26

so I think what I had to come

35:28

to realize was to really dive into

35:30

understanding the

35:32

geopolitical

35:35

and cultural environments

35:38

within which our sports system developed

35:41

and is embedded . And so , if

35:43

you'll indulge me , just like these

35:45

things help

35:47

explain it a little bit better . So

35:50

in the US , we

35:53

have tended throughout our history

35:55

to adopt

35:57

an approach that resists

36:00

intervention , particularly

36:02

at the federal level . So maybe

36:05

states can set things how

36:07

they want or whatever , but wherever possible , we're

36:09

trying not to

36:12

intervene at the federal level , and

36:16

this has really flowed into the

36:20

policymaking around sports . So

36:22

we have next

36:24

to no and I won't go into the whole

36:27

history of the Amateur Sports Act of 1978

36:30

and how that just was like this

36:32

casting of the

36:34

die for an un-system

36:36

, like a lack of sort of

36:39

federal approach to sports . But

36:41

that's essentially what it was . It was an

36:43

opportunity , a focusing

36:46

event coming out of a subpar

36:48

performance in the 1972

36:51

Munich Games , and

36:53

we had an opportunity to decide

36:56

as a society , like do

36:58

we want to do that ? Do we want to set some guardrails

37:02

around sports and how they operate

37:04

? And we essentially chose

37:07

no . And

37:09

so one of the

37:11

things that makes our particular

37:13

context different than , say , some

37:16

of our kind of peers around

37:18

the world is the fact

37:20

that we are existing

37:22

and operating within a largely

37:25

ungoverned

37:27

, market-driven

37:30

system of youth and athlete development

37:32

. So

37:36

if the market is what ? If consumer

37:38

demand is ultimately what's shaping

37:41

, what

37:43

options are out there for people to participate

37:46

? It naturally

37:48

is going to be responsive

37:50

to what you brought up , tim

37:53

, with the idea

37:55

of like , well , if I get my kid in

37:57

at four versus

37:59

six , I've got two years of advantage

38:02

on everybody else . And I don't

38:04

say that in a sort

38:06

of snarky like , can

38:09

you believe parents way ? Like , yeah

38:11

, I can , I am one , I feel

38:13

it , I get it If I see the kid

38:16

down the street like starting

38:18

to play , like travel ball it's , I

38:20

mean , and I know as well as anybody the

38:24

potential negative consequences

38:26

of that , and yet I'm still sort of like , should we

38:28

? I don't know .

38:29

You know , like I was just thinking it's so validating to

38:31

hear you say that , matt , because I was just

38:33

thinking the same thing with my kid .

38:35

We all are , and that's the thing like . That's . The thing I had to

38:37

come to a realization about is

38:39

that these aren't bad actors , right

38:42

? These are people making

38:44

individual choices that

38:47

they believe will put their child

38:49

in the best possible situation

38:51

to succeed , and

38:53

that's not wrong , fundamentally right

38:55

. Like it may be manifesting itself

38:57

in a way that is

39:00

producing

39:02

negative outcomes at

39:04

the individual and system levels , but it's not

39:07

wrong for a parent to want something good for their kid

39:09

. And so if we're gonna solve these issues

39:11

, we have to recognize

39:14

there's some basic logic

39:16

there of like a parent saying , well

39:18

, geez , I wanna give my kid a chance to play in the NBA

39:20

or the WNBA or whatever , like

39:22

, yeah , let's start them early and let's get extra

39:25

coaching for them , and like

39:27

that can

39:30

be a bad thing , but it's not

39:32

coming from a bad place the vast

39:34

majority of the time , the vast

39:36

majority . And so if

39:39

we're gonna work within the system , we

39:41

almost we have to like acknowledge

39:44

that , because a lot of

39:46

the people who are

39:48

working on reforming the system , a lot of researchers

39:50

they

39:53

sort of refuse to meet people where

39:55

they are , and I'm not casting

39:57

stones at anyone in particular

39:59

, whatever , but there's a natural tendency to

40:01

wanna be like yo , this

40:03

is so clear what we should be

40:06

doing and it's just at

40:08

the individual level , working

40:10

within a market-based system , we're

40:13

not going to be able to

40:15

just flip a switch

40:17

and everything is fixed right

40:20

, because we have no policy mechanisms for that

40:22

. We literally

40:24

can't do it . So what we have to do

40:26

is try to figure out how we shift demands

40:28

toward healthier

40:31

, more beneficial types

40:33

of sport experiences , how we help parents

40:35

understand that doing

40:37

what the science

40:39

suggests and pursuing

40:42

what they want for their kid are

40:44

not things that are incompatible with

40:46

one another , but that it's really

40:49

hard . As one of

40:51

my mentors , lawrence Chalep , who's one of the great

40:53

thinkers in sport management

40:55

history , calls

40:58

that the sort of prisoner's dilemma of youth sports

41:01

. Right , if you've studied the economics

41:04

the sort of prisoner's dilemma logic

41:06

it's the same kind of thing that's operating .

41:08

Anyone you've seen the dark night the last 15

41:10

?

41:10

minutes of the dark night is the prisoner's dilemma .

41:13

There you go , exactly .

41:15

So I'm sorry to go in , like I

41:17

feel like that was a lot to

41:20

take in Like . So when I teach my students that

41:22

like and

41:24

it goes on for even longer I'm like you gotta

41:26

just buckle in , I promise . But

41:28

most of them , even studying sport

41:31

and other programs around the country , won't

41:33

even be exposed to this explanation

41:35

or understanding around

41:37

it . So you know , a lot of times you put it in- such

41:39

important context .

41:41

I don't know that too many people have

41:43

that full picture . I

41:45

mean , I've studied this stuff , I've taught this stuff

41:47

and but the way to

41:49

hear , the way you explain it , the way you frame it , it

41:52

is , I think , really

41:54

important .

41:56

And I do too , thank you , of course , but

41:59

, like I think you can feel that come

42:02

through , the more I study this , the more I'm like

42:04

you know , and

42:07

we're in so many

42:09

ways we are failing

42:13

kids , our kids right

42:15

and in terms of what we're allowing their

42:18

life to be and what we're allowing

42:20

their experience with sports to be . And

42:24

again , I don't mean that in really maybe

42:26

as dramatic a way as it sounds , but it's

42:29

scary and frustrating

42:31

and interesting and challenging

42:34

and all these things . And you know , we can

42:36

look at other models

42:38

around the globe and there's some

42:40

really cool , interesting models . You

42:43

know , you'll hear Norway talked about a lot

42:46

as a and they're Norway kicks

42:48

ass Like .

42:48

Norway is awesome , like the way they do stuff . Happiest

42:51

country in the world right , that's pretty consistent . Yeah , and the way

42:53

?

42:53

they . There's sports systems . For any

42:55

listeners who are not

42:57

familiar with the way that Norway

42:59

operates , they were the first country to have

43:01

a children's bill of rights in sports

43:04

and they are . So they

43:06

so heavily protect the experience

43:08

of their kids and when we

43:10

can start keeping score and when

43:12

we can specialize and in the US , we're

43:15

never gonna allow that , like we're never

43:17

gonna allow the level

43:19

of government intervention and policy

43:21

intervention that

43:23

you might see in a country like Norway

43:26

, and Norway is not even the most heavy-handed

43:28

in terms of government intervention but

43:30

it's , you

43:32

know , they've been a really good model

43:34

for showing like , wait , you can

43:36

protect the experience

43:38

of kids and excel . They

43:41

always , you know , at the top of the medal

43:43

table in the winter Olympics . They've got some of the

43:45

most impactful

43:47

, you know , like summer Olympic sport

43:50

athletes Erling

43:53

Holland , you know , the leading goal scorer and the premier

43:55

, you know they . So

43:57

their model is one that's every nation

44:00

should look at , and whether they can fully implement

44:03

it . The way that the Norwegians do is , you

44:06

know , another conversation , but as something aspirational . It's

44:11

pretty rad , you know . I mean it's pretty neat .

44:14

Let me ask you a totally unfair question . Sorry , tim I

44:19

because I realize where we are in our time together and

44:23

we only have a few minutes left and I wanna , I

44:25

sort of wanna get your

44:27

really quick take on this . So I don't know if this will tell you

44:29

with what you were saying , tim , I apologize . I

44:32

just I wanna make sure that that Mac gets

44:35

to speak to . Okay . So , like , what do we do

44:37

, right ? Like , like you're saying

44:39

, you know , a

44:41

system like Norway probably wouldn't work in the US . What

44:46

do you suggest in terms of moving this

44:48

needle ? Yeah , and that's the question

44:51

right .

44:52

It's like and it's easy for academics to be like these

44:55

are all the things that are wrong , you know . And then people

44:57

are like well , how do you fix it ? And they're like well , I don't know

44:59

, you know . I mean , like , how

45:01

do we ? It's not fixable , it's not , it's not

45:03

transformable in its present

45:06

state in

45:10

a way that I think would be satisfying to you , satisfying

45:12

to a lot of the people

45:15

who see the

45:18

kind of the gap between like what

45:20

we do and what we really could do . Like

45:22

we're good , we're amazing at sports , in spite of

45:25

ourselves in the US .

45:26

It's not because of how we do it .

45:28

In many respects , it's in spite of how we do it

45:30

. So

45:33

government is never I

45:36

keep saying never right . There's obviously

45:38

a chance things

45:40

shift in some way , but in general we

45:43

are unlikely to be able to look toward

45:45

government for these sort of national level

45:48

shifts

45:50

. We've seen

45:52

sort of shifts in terms

45:54

of national governing bodies adopting

45:56

more holistic , better approaches

45:59

, you know , in a piecemeal fashion

46:01

, right . So like USA hockey adopting

46:04

and developing the American

46:06

development model , which has then been sort of cloned

46:09

to other national governing bodies

46:11

. So we're seeing some good

46:13

work in these areas . To

46:17

see real change , it is going to require

46:19

, as I mentioned , a fundamental

46:22

kind of shift in the demand for what we want

46:24

out of sports . So as a parent

46:26

individually , I've

46:28

got to want better , right Than

46:31

a lot of these abusive environments that

46:33

we thrust our kids into . And

46:36

where we can really achieve

46:38

that , I would argue , is through like a more of

46:40

a public-private partnership model , right

46:43

? So driving a lot of this through from

46:47

the top down but in our case , in

46:50

the way we do things , the top down means major

46:52

league baseball or the national hockey

46:55

league or NWSL

46:57

. Like driving better

47:00

sports practices from our

47:03

professional systems , because

47:07

, not because it's the moral

47:09

or ethical thing to do even

47:11

though it is but because it's better for

47:14

business and I know that sounds

47:16

cynical . But like creating

47:18

a system we have to understand

47:20

the system we're in and respond to that

47:23

right . So like figuring out how we

47:25

better the system , and

47:28

it's gonna require showing how the

47:31

entities and

47:34

people who benefit from the system could

47:36

actually be better served , along

47:39

with their participant base and kids

47:42

, if we do it this way . So

47:45

like an organization like the Project Play . If this

47:47

is a topic that is , you're

47:50

listening to this and this is a topic that's

47:52

really interesting to you I

47:56

don't think there's a more important organization in this space right now

47:58

than the

48:00

Aspen Institute's Project Play . Project Play run

48:03

by a good friend

48:05

, tom Ferry , who was at ESPN

48:07

previously and kind of wrote a book about

48:09

called Game On which I believe

48:11

has a big anniversary coming up soon about

48:14

like how crazy our systems are , and

48:17

then sort of took that as

48:19

the seed for starting

48:22

this . You know the sports and society program

48:25

at Aspen Institute which became Project

48:27

you know , which has an offshoot

48:29

called Project Play . They've brought

48:31

everybody to the table . They've brought

48:33

all the key players and entities

48:35

to the table in a way that we've been

48:37

unable to achieve . Project

48:40

Play just celebrated its 10 year anniversary

48:42

and the amount of good

48:44

work and needle moving , you

48:46

know because that's kind of how we have to think about this Like

48:50

the amount of needle moving that has been

48:52

precipitated directly through

48:54

what has happened at Project

48:56

Play , is

48:59

something that the average person

49:01

would never be able to fully understand

49:03

or appreciate . And so if

49:05

this is something that , as you're listening to this

49:07

, you're like , yeah , I really

49:09

want to think more about this stuff , this is cool , that's

49:12

a great starting point . They have all these resources

49:14

, all this research , you

49:18

know , and so as we look toward the

49:20

future and how we better

49:22

things , it's

49:24

gonna take creativity , you know , and

49:26

that's hard because it

49:30

requires a lot of entities who have entrenched

49:32

financial interests

49:34

in the way that the system currently is

49:36

structured , to wanna

49:39

do something different , and

49:41

you can't really blame them for not on

49:44

a certain level , right On an abstract

49:46

level . I can blame them for , you know

49:48

, not taking more ownership

49:50

over , you know , the

49:53

systems that they've helped create . But , yeah

49:56

, it's a really difficult thing . That's gonna

49:58

have to require , you know it's

50:00

gonna require sort of top

50:02

down , bottom up , side to

50:05

side , like it's gonna require the

50:08

incentive structures to be

50:11

better understood and kind of shifted

50:13

. And we didn't even

50:15

get to talk about like play and competition

50:17

and stuff as much as we could , you

50:19

know . So I think there's so much fascinating

50:22

stuff about I'm not anti-sports

50:25

, right . Like I kind of have to remind people like I

50:27

love sports , sports of my life , right

50:29

. Like I often have to sort

50:31

of remind people of that because

50:33

I can come

50:35

across as being sort of well

50:37

, he likes free play , like

50:39

unstructured sports , not organized

50:42

sports . But I

50:45

think one of the most important

50:47

things I've learned in the

50:49

years that I've been doing this is that

50:52

type of like reductionist thinking

50:54

of like it's either this

50:56

or it's that Misunderstands

51:01

the whole question , right . So

51:03

it's not about abolishing organized

51:06

sports . It's not about every

51:08

kid just running and chasing butterflies

51:10

. It's about how do we create

51:12

experiences for

51:14

kids where they

51:16

are able to develop

51:20

in and through these complimentary

51:22

contexts in

51:25

a manner that allows them to develop in

51:27

. Some of the work that I've done and my colleagues

51:30

has shown that just

51:32

by creating opportunities

51:35

for them to play in multiple

51:38

settings , not just organized sports , opens

51:42

up a whole new realm of possibilities for them developmentally

51:45

and in terms of their kind of mental health . So

51:48

, yeah , there's a ton of stuff

51:50

to unpack with regard

51:52

to that , so maybe we'll do another episode

51:54

. Yeah , I feel like we need to . Yeah .

51:56

There's still more that I wanna bring up too . I know and

51:58

, tim , I apologize , I know you didn't

52:00

get a chance , but we do wanna respect your

52:02

schedule , mats , and you

52:05

mentioned project play . Just

52:07

real quick , do you wanna give our listeners

52:09

, if you have it , the URL , if

52:11

people wanna look it up , or if there are

52:13

ways that people can connect with you , learn

52:16

more about your work ? Obviously fascinating

52:18

stuff . Where can you direct folks

52:20

?

52:21

Yeah , so thank you for that Google

52:25

project play . I can't remember what the website is projectplayus

52:28

, I'm not sure , something like that but

52:31

Aspen project play it's one of

52:33

those . In terms of connecting with me , linkedin

52:36

is often a good spot . You're welcome

52:38

to email me , mattbowers at austinutexasedu

52:41

. I'm

52:45

always happy to connect and talk

52:47

more with folks about this type of stuff

52:50

. Yeah

52:52

, it's . As I think you can

52:54

probably tell , it's like it's

52:57

really fun to try to wrestle

52:59

with this . You know it's

53:02

frustrating , it's challenging

53:04

, it's a lot of things , but

53:06

it is one

53:08

of those fascinating kind

53:12

of almost uniquely American in

53:14

some ways , like an under-emory

53:16

in about how we do this stuff and

53:20

how we create better experiences for

53:22

kids what we're able to do with

53:24

that . So , yeah

53:26

, I love chatting about this stuff

53:28

. I love the work that you

53:31

all are doing on this podcast . I'm

53:33

someone in the classes

53:35

I teach in the work that I do . That

53:39

is , you

53:41

know , that really emphasizes mindfulness

53:45

, you know , well-being

53:47

, mental health , and

53:51

I think there needs to be

53:53

more . I think we were joking before we

53:55

were recording or whatever that like . You're

53:58

sort of a you

54:00

know you're talking about kind of mindfulness

54:03

and centering and thinking about how

54:05

we navigate and being very reflective

54:07

and sports can be such this

54:09

kind of blunt force instrument

54:11

, right when it seems almost incompatible

54:14

with mindfulness . But anybody who is

54:17

working in sports at the highest levels or

54:20

working in sports in any capacity , recognizes

54:23

the importance of kind of a mindful

54:25

approach to how we train

54:28

athletes , how we train coaches

54:30

, how we develop teams and

54:33

the best teams and

54:35

coaches and athletes are

54:38

doing this work . So

54:40

yeah , so thank you guys for

54:43

the stuff that you kind of put out

54:45

into the world . That it's something that very

54:47

much connects with my own general

54:50

philosophy .

54:51

Yeah , oh , thank you . Yeah , I would

54:53

love to continue this conversation

54:55

at some point . I think there

54:57

is a lot of common ground and just

54:59

fascinating stuff , yeah , so thank you for

55:01

the work that you do as well . I

55:04

wanna take a moment , too and just invite folks

55:06

who wanna connect with us with our Mindful

55:09

Sport Performance podcast . We do have an Instagram

55:11

at mindful underscore sport

55:13

underscore podcast . We also have a

55:16

YouTube channel where we post our exercises

55:18

that we begin our

55:20

guest episodes with . So

55:22

the exercise that Tim led today will be up

55:24

there , and if you're looking for a great free library

55:26

of mindfulness based exercises , highly

55:28

suggest you check that out our YouTube

55:30

page . You can connect

55:33

with our MSP Institute at

55:35

wwwmindfulsportperformanceorg

55:38

. We also have an Instagram page and

55:40

a Facebook page where you can find information and

55:43

me , dr Keith Kaufman . I am on Instagram

55:45

at mindful sport doc , and

55:47

that is also my handle for Twitter , slash

55:49

X , so you're welcome to connect

55:51

with me there . Our book is still

55:53

out there Mindful Sport Performance Enhancement Mental

55:55

Training for Athletes and Coaches . So if you're interested

55:58

in our mindfulness and sport work , definitely

56:00

check that out , and we always welcome

56:02

reviews ratings for

56:04

our book as well as for our podcast . If you

56:06

listen , please , please , rate and review us , and

56:09

it helps . And there's other

56:11

ways to support our podcast this year as well

56:13

. If you go to our BuzzFrowd feed

56:15

, which is the home base of our pod

56:17

, there are ways to

56:19

support us , to

56:21

help us offset the operating costs of

56:23

our podcast , and so we're

56:26

very grateful for that as well . So

56:28

thank you again to Matt for all of

56:30

your time and all of this wonderful

56:32

information today , and thank

56:34

you to everyone who listened . We'll see you next time

56:36

. チーム .