0:00

This is a Glassbox Media Podcast.

0:48

Welcome back to Missing. I am Tim here today

0:50

with Lance. Lance, how are you today? I'm

0:53

doing fantastic today, Tim. I hope everyone out

0:55

there, I hope they're doing it just as fantastic.

0:58

This guest that we have on is bringing to

1:00

the table the really tragic

1:02

death of an individual. And as you

1:04

look into this more and you dig

1:07

deeper, you do find that this death

1:09

is probably, most likely a homicide.

1:11

And that is exactly what our guest is going to be talking about

1:14

today. But Tim, what I want to be talking about right

1:16

now is your mood. How

1:18

are you?

1:18

I'm doing all right. Thanks for asking.

1:20

I'm excited to be here. We are continuing

1:23

our series of post-crime

1:26

con interviews, and we met Melissa

1:28

Sandberg at Crime Con, and she

1:30

was speaking very passionately about

1:32

investigating the unsolved murder

1:34

of Judith Petty. And she's teamed

1:37

up with a group of investigators.

1:40

In fact, it's called the American Military University

1:42

Cold Case Investigations Team,

1:44

and they're from Charlestown, West Virginia.

1:48

But they're also known as the Safe Haven Team.

1:50

And Safe Haven is the name of their podcast

1:53

as well that is looking into Judith

1:55

Petty's death. And she was 48 years

1:58

old when she went missing,

1:59

was found in February of 2008. And

2:03

we get into all of the details here in this

2:05

conversation with Melissa, but Tim, if

2:07

people want to listen to all of these details and not

2:09

get interrupted by commercial breaks, where

2:11

would someone find this episode plus every

2:14

single other episode that we've done without

2:16

commercial breaks? Well, our lovely listeners

2:18

can follow Crawlspace Premium

2:21

on Apple Podcasts, but if you're

2:23

not an Apple user, you can go to crawlspace.supportingcast.fm

2:26

and sign up for the same product there. You

2:28

get early releases, ad-free episodes,

2:31

and our weekly bonus show that everybody

2:33

loves. And follow Crawlspace on social

2:35

media, Crawlspace Podcast or Crawlspace

2:38

Pod. All right, we'll be right back with our

2:40

conversation about Judith Petty with

2:42

Melissa Sandberg right after

2:45

these commercials.

2:52

Do you want to know what it's like to hang out with MS-13,

2:54

Nels Salvador? The Russian Mafia

2:56

fought battles all over Brooklyn in the 1990s. Well,

2:59

what about that time I got lost in the Burmese jungle hunting

3:01

the world's biggest meth lab? Or why

3:03

the Japanese Yakuza have all those crazy dragon

3:05

tattoos? I'm Sean Williams. And I'm

3:07

Danny Gold. And we're the hosts of the Underworld

3:09

Podcast. We're journalists that have traveled

3:12

all over, reporting on dangerous people and places.

3:15

And every week, we'll be bringing you a new story

3:17

about organized crime from all over the world. We

3:19

know this stuff because we've been there, we've seen

3:21

it, and we've got the near misses and embarrassing

3:23

tales to go with it. We'll mix in reporting

3:26

with our own experiences in the field, and

3:28

we'll throw in some bad jokes while we're at it. The

3:30

Underworld Podcast explores the criminal underworld

3:32

that affect all of our lives, whether we know it or

3:34

not. Available wherever you get your podcasts.

3:41

Settle in for an evening of mystery, mayhem,

3:43

and exploration of the dark side of humanity.

3:46

I'm Dr. Shiloh, a former cop.

3:48

And I'm Dr. Scott, a former

3:50

Hollywood casting director. Now we're

3:52

both forensic psychologists working in Southern

3:54

California.

3:55

Are you fascinated by the twisted minds

3:57

that commit criminal acts?

4:01

Do you ever wonder how could they do that?

4:03

In each episode of our podcast,

4:06

LA Not So Confidential, we dissect

4:08

the nexus where true crime, forensic psychology

4:10

and entertainment meet. The lady blancher was

4:13

exaggerating her daughter's medical condition for

4:15

financial gain. We serve up fascinating cases

4:17

viewed through the lens of human behavior. Your brother, why

4:19

is your brother afraid of you? Because that burden

4:22

is so much.

4:22

Delivered with our signature gallows humor

4:25

while examining the actual diagnoses

4:27

and dishing on the media portrayal.

4:29

Black kids are alive. Subscribe to LA

4:31

Not So Confidential anywhere you go for podcasts.

4:33

Come and join us for LA

4:35

Not So Confidential. Trust

4:38

us. We're doctors.

4:39

Have you ever wondered what it's like to be

4:41

buried in an avalanche? Weird

4:44

foreign feeling of despair. Or how

4:46

it feels to crash a skydive.

4:48

I remember

4:49

feeling my body hit the ground.

4:50

These are the stories you'll hear on the podcast

4:53

called What Was That Like? Two

4:55

stories told by the actual person

4:58

who went through it. And you'll hear actual 911

5:00

calls. 911, there's

5:03

a man at my back door trying to get in. Search

5:05

for what was that like on any podcast

5:07

app or at what was it like that. Welcome

5:22

to the podcast. Melissa Sandberg.

5:24

How are you today? I am good.

5:27

How are both of you? We're doing great today

5:29

because we're talking with you about

5:31

this really frustrating homicide.

5:34

The reason why this is such a great

5:36

moment and it's going to be such a great conversation is because

5:38

we met you at CrimeCon and this is one of those

5:40

byproducts of going to CrimeCon

5:43

or going to one of these festivals, meeting people,

5:45

hearing what they're passionate about and then bringing

5:47

you on to extend the platform

5:50

that you have already developed with this

5:52

homicide. Feel free to use it however you want.

5:54

We're just in such a fortunate position to meet

5:56

you and have you come on. Thank you so much. I'm

5:58

like Starstalker.

5:59

I keep staring at both of you and like,

6:02

oh my God, I can't believe this is my life right now. Story

6:04

of my life every morning. I look in the mirror. So

6:08

I'm just so excited that you both were so

6:11

awesome at CrimeCon and that was my first

6:13

time there and I've been a fan

6:15

of yours for years. Of course,

6:17

you know, listening from the Mora Marie onto

6:20

the missing, just a big fan of both

6:22

of you and you were so kind at CrimeCon and

6:24

as I mentioned, had some drinks and I was, you

6:26

know, oh my God, I have to go talk to the Mora

6:28

Marie boys as I refer to you.

6:30

Well, we're glad you did. You

6:33

came well researched about

6:36

the unsolved murder of Judith Petty

6:38

and that's what we're going to talk about here today. What

6:40

got you interested in Judith's case? Me

6:44

and my

6:44

team were from the American Military

6:47

University and it's a cold case investigative

6:49

team and it's led by Jen

6:52

who is, has a background in military

6:54

and interrogation. And so we developed

6:57

a cold case team and we started looking at

6:59

cases that were submitted to us. Judy's

7:02

case was submitted to us and there was something

7:04

about Judy's that really stood out to me that I

7:06

was like, this is the one that I want to take. Given

7:08

her age, victimology is really

7:10

low for Judy and yet she was found

7:12

on her family's farm 13 miles away.

7:15

So there was just something about this case and

7:17

then we met the family, of course, and fell in love

7:19

with them. So that was a big

7:22

reason for us taking on Judy's

7:23

case. Tell us a little bit about yourself

7:26

and your background and what is

7:28

it about you that makes you

7:30

so well equipped to handle a story like

7:32

this? Because you certainly are. Tim said you

7:34

came well researched and it's some of the best

7:36

research that we've received through a chance

7:38

encounter at CrimeCon.

7:40

Well, thank you. I'm not quite sure.

7:42

My background is actually I'm a hospice social

7:44

worker. My title is a licensed

7:46

clinical social worker. So I'll CSW,

7:49

but I've worked in hospice 20 years, but

7:51

I've worked with domestic violence victims, things like

7:53

that. But I've always had a passion for solving

7:56

cool cases. When I was in college back in

7:58

the day, as I say, they didn't have a lot of options if

8:01

you didn't want to be a cop. I've always wanted to be

8:03

a homicide detective. Clue is my

8:05

jam. You know, I'm always Miss Scarlett. But

8:07

you know, they didn't give you a lot of options back

8:09

then of like, hey, if you don't want to be a cop, here's

8:11

these other avenues that they have today.

8:14

So I've always been interested in following

8:16

along. And when I got this opportunity, I was

8:18

like, Oh my God, it's my dream. How did this

8:20

group form? And do you have several

8:22

cases with this group? The first

8:24

case I worked with them on was at a

8:26

Lubbock, Texas in 1975. They

8:29

had presented at crime con a couple years

8:31

ago, author George Jared is also

8:33

part of this group. So I had joined

8:35

because we do crowdsourcing.

8:38

So I joined and I was like, you know,

8:41

doing all this research on my end and sending

8:43

it to them. And then I said, Hey, if you're ever going to Lubbock,

8:45

I'll go to and they're like, well, we don't

8:47

pay for you. I was like, that's fine. I'll pay myself.

8:50

So then that's how I kind of got involved. And

8:52

then from that point, Jen and George

8:54

are like, Hey, we want to tackle two cases.

8:56

If you want to lead one, we'll do another

8:59

one. So I don't know if you're familiar with

9:01

George Jared and Jen vocals,

9:04

but they were the ones on the Rebecca Gould

9:06

case. So they had crowdsourced and

9:08

lured the killer onto

9:10

the Facebook. So Rebecca Gould

9:13

out of Arkansas, the killer got

9:15

onto the Facebook and was communicating directly

9:17

with Jen and Jen has paid visits to

9:19

him in prison. So he's the only one who has allowed

9:22

Jen to come in and talk to him. William

9:24

Miller. Yeah. So it was really interesting.

9:26

So they're working another case right now out of Port

9:28

Orchard, Linda Malcolm. And so they're

9:31

taking that one. And I've taken Judy Penny.

9:33

They've written a few books too.

9:34

You had said that there was something

9:36

about Judith that stood out

9:38

to you. And you mentioned her age. Do

9:40

you want to get into the circumstances

9:43

of the crime now? Or is there

9:45

more background that you think is relevant beforehand?

9:47

No, I think we can get into her case because

9:50

on the top of it, you look at it and it doesn't

9:52

seem that not interesting, but

9:54

you're kind of like, what are you going to do with this? Right. But the

9:56

more you dog in and the more that we've gained

9:59

in over a year.

9:59

year, it's

10:00

kind of how many turns can this case

10:02

take? And there's so many things that went wrong

10:05

in the investigation back in 2008, just

10:07

to kind of give the overview. So Judith

10:09

Petty was 48 years old. She

10:12

lived with her grandmother in Parkersburg,

10:14

West Virginia. She was the full-time caregiver

10:17

of her grandmother who had some dementia, Alzheimer's.

10:20

At that time, I mean, Judy was never married.

10:22

She had no kids. She never dated. She didn't

10:24

go to the bar. When you look at victimology,

10:26

she doesn't have a lot of marks

10:29

on the victimology.

10:30

So just to interject really quickly, you

10:32

said that she was 48 years old and

10:34

lived a mostly simple life. You

10:37

said she didn't drink. She wasn't somebody who would go out and

10:39

party. She didn't have any kids, right? Correct.

10:41

When you're looking at people who become

10:44

victims, as she did, they typically

10:47

put themselves out there a little bit more. That's statistically

10:49

what we're talking about is people who are

10:52

more social and they've interacted with

10:54

more people. They just have a statistically,

10:56

I guess, worse chance of encountering

10:58

somebody. Yeah.

10:59

If you're married, then you have an ex-husband

11:02

or a husband. You have kids, then

11:04

you have friends of kids. The

11:06

circle widens. In Judy's case,

11:09

the circle is only her family. She

11:11

wasn't working outside the house. She wasn't

11:14

involved in social things.

11:16

She's truly just a family person. There

11:18

wasn't anything else we could explore. Was it

11:21

a job related? Did she have an affair with

11:23

somebody? I mean, there really wasn't anything

11:26

to show that the likelihood

11:28

of her getting murdered by somebody she knew or

11:30

related in that way was very low. And

11:33

what happened was one day on February

11:35

6th, 2008, she told her sister

11:38

and nephew that she was going to go return some books at

11:40

the library. Judy walked everywhere.

11:42

She was diabetic. She

11:45

was overweight. And so her doctor said, yeah, you should

11:47

be out walking more. So she walked everywhere.

11:49

So she walked to the library and returned

11:51

books, and they never saw her again. They

11:54

were driving all around at night trying

11:56

to find her where she at, where she had, she never

11:58

came back. They grew up on a family. farm 13

12:01

miles away. Finally, you know,

12:03

the dad was driving, you know, back and forth

12:05

from the farm like she wouldn't be out here

12:07

walking it was February, it was nice

12:09

out that day, but as it got darker,

12:12

it gets darker earlier right in February.

12:15

Like she was in hiking boots like she wasn't

12:17

dressed

12:17

to be walking out to

12:19

the farm. So the next day her dad went

12:21

back out to the family farm and the whole

12:23

farm was in fire in golfing flames,

12:26

the whole house, the cellar, his whole

12:28

property. Their driveway is a third a mile

12:31

up from the road on a mountain. So you can't

12:33

even see just driving past

12:35

if anything was going on up there until he got

12:37

halfway up and he saw everything

12:39

on fire. Where was Judy at that

12:41

point?

12:41

So they still couldn't find Judy. So the dad

12:44

shows up and the house is on fire. He

12:46

runs down the hill because there's zero

12:48

cell reception up there. He runs

12:50

down the hill to the neighbors to use their

12:52

land phones. By the time the police

12:54

got there, the fire trucks, it was so muddy.

12:57

They had snowed and rained the night

12:59

before the trucks could not make it up that

13:01

driveway. They had to use brush

13:02

trucks. Well, the brush trucks

13:04

wouldn't put out this mass of fire that was in

13:07

the cellar and the house.

13:09

So they let it burn out. And the dad is

13:11

saying to everybody, listen, my

13:14

daughter is still missing my house's properties

13:17

on fire. Like there has to be a

13:19

relation here. Like what's going on? Like

13:21

we still can't find my daughter. It wasn't

13:23

until three days later, once they

13:25

let the fire burn itself out, the cadaver

13:28

dogs were brought in. They were circling the

13:30

cellar, kind of hitting on the cellar. And

13:32

that's when Judy's jawbone

13:35

and some bones were recovered. Judy was

13:38

cremated, if you will, in the cellar.

13:41

Everything had fallen on top of her. And

13:43

because they had allowed it to burn itself

13:45

out, when you picked up her bones, they went

13:48

to dust. The only thing

13:50

that survived was her jawbone. And that's how they identified her

13:52

and her liver, thankfully. So we

13:55

know that she was dead prior to the fire

13:57

because her liver had no gases.

14:00

show that she was inhaling anything

14:02

and it also showed that there was no like drugs

14:04

or alcohol in her liver. So thankfully

14:07

her liver survived. It was like a softball

14:09

size but that's how we know that she was

14:11

dead prior

14:12

to the fire. When you said that they

14:14

allowed the fire to burn out, did they not

14:16

call the fire department or that was

14:19

what the fire department had recommended just

14:21

to allow it to burn out? Yeah so the fire department

14:23

was there. Everyone was trampling around everything

14:25

because they still didn't know where Judy was so

14:27

they were treating it as like an arson case.

14:30

But the dad is saying but my daughter's missing

14:33

and now this is on fire. But

14:35

the problem was the big fire trucks

14:37

couldn't get up that driveway to put out the fire.

14:40

So they would

14:41

fill these little brush trucks and

14:43

try

14:43

to take that up there but it wasn't

14:45

enough to extinguish it all right

14:47

on that day. So they're like we're just gonna

14:50

allow it to burn itself out. Because

14:52

by the time the dad got there I should clarify everything

14:55

was already on the ground. The house was

14:57

on the ground, the structure there was you

14:59

know two feet of flames. Like it was not

15:02

up in flames it had already collapsed everything.

15:05

So were you able to

15:07

learn the cause of Judy's death?

15:09

It's undetermined. The ME did say

15:11

to investigate it as suspicious

15:14

due to the liver not having any gases

15:17

in the condition of her bones and being found in the

15:19

cellar. So where Judy was found so

15:21

there's the house structure and back then

15:23

they had a separate cellar. Kind of

15:26

like Wizard of Oz where you go hide in

15:28

the cellar and you have those doors. There

15:30

were stairs going down and they just kept canned

15:32

foods down there. Mr. Petty

15:34

kept a lot of the farm tools

15:36

there and Judy hated the cellar and

15:38

that's something so important in this case. She

15:41

hated and was afraid of the cellar because of

15:43

snakes growing up she never went down there

15:45

it was creepy. That is where she was found.

15:48

The doors to open up the cellar weren't there

15:51

so we believe that she was

15:53

dragged backwards down the stairs because

15:55

she was like 250 pounds so use

15:58

gravity and you pull her down the stairs. and

16:00

she was just laid right there, like

16:02

right at the bottom of the stairs and turned. Like someone

16:04

dragged her down enough to get her in,

16:06

turned, and then our fire experts

16:08

that we have

16:09

on our team reviewed all the photos, everything,

16:12

and believed that I was poured

16:14

on Judy and then up the stairs. So we believe

16:16

the fire started in the cellar to get

16:19

rid of her body and the evidence, and then it caught the

16:21

house on fire. Alan Haskins, he's

16:23

part of our team now and he teaches a

16:26

fire class. He's fire expert, I

16:28

call him, but he looked at everything, looked

16:30

at the photos, and he can see the spalding

16:32

and the cement and the accelerant,

16:35

and you can see where her body is

16:37

positioned, and that that's where the hottest

16:39

fire was, was right where her body

16:41

was. Now there was a lot of stuff in

16:44

the back of the cellar, so I don't think they

16:46

could get her in that far, so they just brought

16:48

her in enough just to lay her there. And

16:50

then the winds that night were

16:53

blowing towards the house, so he set

16:55

the cellar on fire, the wind direction,

16:57

and the speed of the wind, it was all going towards

16:59

the house. Were there arson

17:02

investigators from the

17:04

police, from the official investigation

17:06

who looked at this as well? They

17:07

did. Unfortunately what happened

17:10

is everything was all

17:12

trampled on, right, because they didn't find

17:14

her for three days, so they didn't protect the

17:17

crime scene. They didn't treat the fire as

17:19

related to Judy at the time, so nothing

17:21

was roped off, nothing was changed. The

17:24

fire investigator only collected

17:26

the part around Judy, and that was it.

17:29

And we're saying, why wouldn't you clear the whole cellar

17:31

out? Because who knows what's behind

17:33

her? And so when we've gone back into

17:35

the cellar, because the family has preserved everything,

17:38

so we've been back three times and down

17:40

in that cellar, I brought Alan with us

17:42

to start going through the cellar,

17:45

but yeah, they only got the

17:47

remains and stuff that was circled around

17:49

Judy, they didn't go all the way back

17:51

further, which there could have been a bullet casing, right,

17:54

there could have been some things back there.

17:55

If you don't mind, take us to

17:58

the day where she leaves and she's

17:59

going to return the library books. I

18:02

don't mean this to sound like a joke,

18:04

but did she end up returning the library books?

18:07

Yes, they were returned, but we

18:09

don't know going back to

18:11

all the records, there was no great notes

18:14

taken as to was it,

18:16

did anyone see her in the library, drop them off? Did

18:18

she do it in the drop off box or

18:20

heck in the beginning, we're

18:22

like, how do we know it was her that returned it? You

18:25

know, when we're looking at the family, we're looking

18:27

at everyone and we're like, how do you know that it

18:29

was actually Judy, right? But back

18:31

in 2008, they didn't have cameras outside

18:34

the library. There was no way of knowing who

18:36

returned those books unless they had asked those questions

18:38

back in 2008.

18:39

And has you and your team interviewed

18:41

several people in this case? I know you mentioned

18:44

Judy's family.

18:45

Yeah. So we started with the family

18:47

as we talked about to go back

18:49

and we brought them all in and I've been working with the

18:51

prosecuting attorney, a detective

18:54

assigned to the case. And so we brought

18:56

each individual family member in and re-interview

18:59

them. Start from ground zero. We interviewed Mr.

19:01

Petty hard, right? Because everyone's like, you

19:03

found her, you went out there. So we

19:05

interviewed the sisters, the nephews,

19:08

everybody, everyone answered.

19:10

There was no red flags. There was nothing to

19:12

further investigate them. There was

19:15

an individual who picked Judy

19:17

up

19:18

and this is

19:19

where things can get a little bit, even more complicated.

19:21

An individual picked Judy up. His

19:23

timeline changes quite a bit, but

19:26

he says he picked her up around 1030, 11

19:31

o'clock, and he only drove her

19:33

maybe 0.5 miles and dropped

19:36

off at the farm. He's been the main person

19:38

of interest for 16 years. He's

19:40

the last person to see her. He picked her up.

19:42

He said he dropped her off at the farm. And one

19:44

of the hardest things for us to get past

19:47

is Judy was very shy. He was very

19:49

naive. Other people had seen her walking

19:52

during that night and had offered her a ride. And

19:54

she declined. Think she was okay.

19:56

She was just out walking.

19:57

But the problem is how come this guy come?

20:00

along in a truck,

20:02

big guy,

20:03

says, hey, do you need a ride? And Judy says,

20:06

okay. She's almost there. I mean,

20:08

it was not a far drive. And so we're like,

20:10

how does that make any sense? Right?

20:13

She's almost there. Why would she get in this vehicle

20:15

with this guy? That doesn't seem likely. And

20:17

we interviewed him for over two hours.

20:20

No attorney president. He's taken polygraphs.

20:22

He's passed them. He really says, I've been attached

20:25

to this for 16 years. When I dropped her off, she

20:27

was fine. Dead look in the eye. Just

20:30

nothing to suggest he wasn't lying. I

20:32

think his timeline's wrong about picking

20:34

her up because he was on pills. He was out

20:36

at the bar. The bar closed early. So

20:38

I don't think he realized what time he

20:40

actually picked her up. But we have tracked her

20:42

movement and her pace.

20:45

And it would have put her out there to pick him up.

20:47

Now why she got in that truck? Is it because

20:49

she noticed that her blood sugar was dropping?

20:52

Big diabetic. She didn't have insulin. She

20:54

was insulin dependent and pills. Did

20:56

she like realize she needed a break and was like,

20:59

I'm going to take this or did something else

21:00

frighten her?

21:02

Chris said she acted fine in the car. She didn't

21:04

act drunk. Like, you know how when your sugar drops, you

21:06

can seem like you're intoxicated. She was

21:08

very quiet. She didn't talk. And

21:11

he said that right when they got up to the farm

21:13

gate, she just said, stop here. And she

21:15

got out and he drove away. But

21:17

what's crazy is where he was staying at the time

21:20

is the property on the backside

21:22

of the petty property. It was all like, okay,

21:24

so you dropped her off and then she ends up dead

21:27

and you're

21:27

staying at this property. I think

21:29

it's a big property. It's

21:31

a huge property. And what you can do

21:33

is you can use ATVs and

21:35

there's trails. We actually walked

21:38

through the trail to this property he was seeing

21:40

or staying to see how easy it was to get there.

21:43

It's very easy. You can walk it and you can

21:45

ATV it. So did Judy know

21:47

him? They weren't even familiar

21:49

with each other? So that's kind of a weird

21:51

coincidence then if he stops to

21:53

pick her up and they happen to live on the same property.

21:55

And the backside. Yeah, he was staying there with

21:58

a friend. And so we were like, well...

21:59

Why would she get in the car with you? Like she doesn't

22:02

know you. She turned down female people

22:04

earlier and he's like, I don't know. He's like, I just

22:07

asked because it was a dangerous road. Like West Virginia,

22:09

the roads are like this. It's

22:10

crazy. It's dangerous.

22:12

I don't know what she was doing. He's like,

22:14

I saw a female out there walking and I was like, this

22:17

is dangerous. And it's cool though. Like, do you want to ride?

22:19

And we'll be right back after a quick word

22:22

from our sponsors.

22:25

Lance, I know you know about Rakuten,

22:28

but I want to tell our listeners and make

22:30

sure they're using it because Rakuten

22:33

is the smartest way to save money

22:35

when you shop because you can stack holiday

22:37

sales on top of cash back

22:40

to maximize your savings. Oh, I'm

22:42

so glad that you brought up Rakuten,

22:44

Tim, because it's the holiday season

22:46

and you really need a way to make the shopping

22:49

more efficient. And Rakuten will help

22:51

you find the best deals, sales, coupons.

22:54

They do the work of searching for the coupon codes.

22:56

So you save time and money. And

22:59

earn cash back on clothing and shoes

23:01

for the fashionista, toys and

23:04

games for the little ones, electronics

23:06

for the tech connoisseur and

23:08

kitchen or home essentials for the ultimate

23:10

host or hostess in your life. And

23:13

you might be asking yourself, what kind of brands

23:15

am I going to be offered here with Rakuten? Well,

23:18

you like Nike? Love it. They're on there. You

23:20

like Levi's? Yep. Sephora?

23:22

You love Sephora, Tim. Oh, all about

23:24

Sephora. You got a pet? Yep. You have

23:26

Chewy, Petco. The list is

23:28

endless. You're already shopping, so

23:31

why not get some cash back? As a matter

23:33

of fact, members have earned over $4.6 billion in cash

23:35

back, Tim. So

23:37

you're right. And membership is free

23:39

and it's easy to sign up. So start

23:42

all your shopping trips at Rakuten.com

23:46

or get the Rakuten app and

23:48

download the free browser extension

23:50

to start saving today. Happy holidays.

23:53

Happy holidays, indeed. In

23:55

the 1970s

23:57

and 80s, a monster. hunted

24:00

the Connecticut River Valley. Holding

24:04

bodies found, one survivor

24:07

and no such.

24:10

I'm Jane Barosky, host of

24:12

Invisible Tears. I was seven months

24:15

pregnant and stabbed 27 times and I survived. My

24:20

story didn't end that frightful

24:22

night.

24:23

This attack on me physically

24:25

and mentally lingered for years. I'm

24:28

Amanda Baddard and I'm Jane's life

24:30

coach and co-host of Invisible

24:33

Tears. Jane is ready to share her

24:35

story and not just about

24:37

her attack, but her healing process

24:39

afterwards. As a platform for

24:42

truth and healing, we are on

24:44

a mission to help others set

24:46

suffer from PTSD and help

24:48

bring awareness to mental health issues.

24:51

To hear my story and others, you

24:53

can find Invisible Tears wherever

24:55

you listen to your favorite podcast.

25:05

I'm Morgan Rector, host

25:07

of the Human Monsters True Crime

25:09

podcast. Do you find life boring

25:12

within the comfort zone? Then this

25:14

is the right show for you. This

25:16

show does not spare the graphic details.

25:19

It will test your endurance.

25:22

Consider some testimonials from my listeners.

25:25

Stephanie Jordan said, Some

25:27

episodes even for me I had to take

25:29

a mental health break from, only

25:32

to crave more of it. Karen

25:34

Erdmann says, It's like a train

25:37

wreck you can't turn away from. Anna

25:40

Scholz, I was looking over my

25:42

shoulder because I felt like I should

25:44

have been or was going to be arrested

25:47

for even listening. The

25:49

offenders profiled in human monsters

25:52

are among the most inhumane. These

25:55

people specialize in the unthinkable.

25:58

Human monsters of the world. available

26:00

wherever you get your podcasts.

26:05

Thanks to our sponsors and now we're back to the program.

26:07

I'm wondering if like the other people you said

26:10

offered her rides, maybe a few

26:12

offered her a ride and like two or three offered her

26:14

a ride and she said no and this guy came along and she was like

26:16

maybe there's some sign here

26:18

that I should accept a ride. Yeah.

26:21

Maybe something changed. Yeah, it got too cold or something.

26:24

So many people like offering her rides at

26:26

some point she's gonna be like, maybe I should actually.

26:28

Yeah. Does this person

26:31

have a violent criminal record since

26:34

Judy was murdered?

26:34

So I did talk to some

26:36

ex-wife who said, yeah, there was physical violence

26:39

at times between the both of them. He drank

26:41

a lot. He would take pills. There was no

26:43

arrest records for him. There was no domestic

26:46

violence reports. Of course, not

26:48

every female calls it in. So

26:50

I believe the ex-wife that things did happen. So

26:53

other than that, I couldn't find anything else even

26:55

afterwards

26:56

that he was in trouble with anything. You mentioned

26:58

that you were able to question

27:00

him without a lawyer present and do

27:02

you say he passed two polygraphs or just one?

27:05

One of them was he passed it, but

27:07

then they did it again because I guess the people

27:10

back then, it was not the

27:12

best practice on how they did it. So they did it

27:14

again and it was inconclusive

27:17

because the one question he answered about,

27:19

do you know who killed Judy?

27:21

He answered no and it

27:24

flagged it.

27:25

But his reasoning for that is because

27:28

he thinks somebody else killed Judy.

27:30

So he kind of knows, but he doesn't know

27:32

for sure. When you were

27:34

asking him if you can question him, did

27:37

you say, listen, you can get a lawyer here

27:39

if you want?

27:40

He actually came down to the station.

27:42

We actually had him in an interview room. So

27:45

it was him and the detective

27:47

in Gen came in because she had done

27:50

interrogations in the army. And

27:53

so she's very well versed

27:55

in body language and questioning and so

27:57

we had her go in with the detective.

27:59

And for over two hours, he sat

28:02

there and we got out a big map

28:04

and said show us where you picked her up And you

28:06

know, he took the sisters out

28:09

to where he said he thought he picked her up at so

28:11

he's been cooperative But then you have to think

28:13

is he inserting himself is he too

28:15

helpful? There wasn't anything

28:18

after that two-hour interview that showed that we

28:20

could continue on this road with

28:22

him that we had to Relook

28:24

at it because he's been the top guy for 16 years And

28:27

maybe that's why it wasn't being solved is it

28:30

wasn't him

28:30

I don't know if you mentioned this

28:32

earlier and I forgot to ask but was there anything

28:35

missing from the house that is known? I know

28:37

there was a fire and a lot was

28:39

destroyed but was anything missing

28:41

not that anyone can tell so what's interesting

28:43

is That the petty farm it's a great place

28:46

to hunt So they have a bunch of people that

28:48

would want to hunt on their property and

28:50

they had a lot of things there that The

28:52

neighbor to the right side. His

28:55

name is Billy Billy Shrocking Goss And

28:57

he is now dead by suicide

29:00

and he lived to the right side of the putty They

29:03

would often come on the petty farm

29:05

and steal things So Billy had an auction

29:07

house

29:08

and so mr Pity knows that they were

29:10

coming on

29:10

his property and stealing stuff and then

29:12

selling

29:12

it at the auction house and mr Pity

29:15

has found some of his stuff on Billy's

29:17

property things were coming were being

29:19

stolen until after Judy died

29:21

What kind of things were being stolen?

29:23

So a lot of mr Pity's tools

29:26

a lot of metal a lot of things that

29:28

you could you know pawn and get money

29:30

for or for to make Math,

29:32

you know, which is where we're at today Is

29:35

that this is related to things

29:37

being stolen off their property having to do with

29:40

Billy

29:40

being involved when you had

29:42

said that you were Questioning people I think

29:44

I heard you say that you went hard on her

29:46

dad Yeah, what were those types of questions

29:49

and when did you decide to take

29:51

that interview to the next level? Well,

29:53

because there's a lot of unknowns with

29:56

with what happened. And so we

29:58

knew that we are gonna get a lot of questions And I

30:00

did too. How did you decide to go out

30:02

to the farm? What made you decide to go out to the farm? Because

30:04

there's a lot of rumors. You found Judy's bones,

30:06

right? How do you know that it was there? Because

30:09

there was literally, you wouldn't know a

30:11

body was there if you didn't know a body was there. We

30:13

have the photos, you look at it, and you can't

30:15

even tell that that's

30:17

a human remain right there. So it's like those

30:20

kinds of questions that we knew we

30:22

were going to get from the listeners, but also ourselves.

30:24

We had to ensure that something not happened

30:27

within the house, at grandma's house, a

30:29

fight, and then she was taken out to the family

30:31

farm and to separate, right? So

30:33

we wanted to start with

30:35

the inner circle, of course, and then go

30:38

through. Now Mr. Petty is the most

30:40

adorable man I will ever see in

30:42

my life, Mr. and Mrs. Petty. They are so

30:44

adorable, but Judy was a pretty

30:47

large woman, right? And Mr. Petty has always

30:49

been very small, and to even move her

30:51

would be a task. But again, burning

30:53

the family farm down would not have been something that

30:55

he would have done. And people are like, well,

30:57

why didn't he call from his cell phone? He didn't have

30:59

a cell phone. He's kind of old school. You

31:02

have no cell up there anyway. People

31:04

are like, well, why did he call his daughter and self calling 911

31:08

first, right? Because he called his daughter first to be like,

31:10

oh my God, our property's on fire

31:12

and ran back up. So

31:14

she called 911. When asked that

31:17

Mr. Petty goes, I don't know, like I was just like, oh

31:19

my God, this can't be happening. Like my property's

31:21

on fire. I called my daughter because

31:24

I don't know what's going on, right? And

31:26

so we really wanted to clear

31:29

up and ask him the hard question before

31:31

we continued.

31:32

That must have been pretty difficult for you to

31:34

have to ask these questions, because after

31:36

seeing his picture and hearing a description of him,

31:39

I mean, you want to be compassionate

31:41

to this man.

31:42

Okay, so here's the truth on this one. I

31:44

didn't interview Mr. Petty for that reason.

31:47

I sat and watched in another room

31:49

because I were

31:51

too involved.

31:54

And I didn't want to jeopardize that because

31:57

when he starts crying and he blamed himself,

31:59

He drove the main road thinking

32:02

she would have walked that and she took back roads.

32:04

So you start talking to him and he starts bawling.

32:07

Did I miss her? I

32:08

didn't see her. Could I have gotten there?

32:11

And so we all agreed as a team,

32:13

I wouldn't be the best person to go in and talk with

32:15

Mr. Petty. I'm just too emotionally

32:18

invested. And he may not be honest if I'm in there,

32:20

right? He may say something or

32:23

do something because maybe he doesn't want to disappoint

32:25

me or, you know, the team.

32:27

And so I watched as

32:29

Doug interviewed him. And it's a good thing too

32:32

because I was like, and Doug

32:34

came and I was like, why

32:35

are we so mean to Mr. Petty? Well

32:37

everyone seems pretty satisfied

32:39

with the Petty family and them not

32:42

having involvement.

32:43

Yes, yes. They answered

32:45

all the questions. Everything seemed to

32:47

line up. There wasn't anything further that

32:50

we felt like, and there's some red flags

32:52

here, let's keep going. So we then

32:54

went on to Chris, right? Because then we're

32:56

like, okay, so now let's talk to Chris. Who's the

32:58

last guy

32:59

to see her alive?

33:00

Really, as far as we know. And he admitted that

33:03

himself, you know, he was at a bar one night and

33:05

her picture came up and he's like, Hey, I

33:08

think that's the chick I dropped off. And

33:10

then someone heard him say that and called Mr. Petty.

33:13

So I mean, if you did something to Judy, you're

33:15

not going to be like, Hey, I

33:17

picked her up. I mean, no one would have any idea

33:19

until you said something. But

33:21

again, is that someone who has a big ego?

33:23

Yeah, could have been just like a half truth. Or

33:25

something like that. Or could have been just the absolute

33:28

truth. Right. And you mentioned Billy.

33:30

So Billy committed suicide in 2015. Was

33:34

he ever confronted about stealing from

33:36

the Petty family? No.

33:38

So what we end up finding

33:41

out through our investigation is

33:43

through 15 years, Billy's

33:46

name and his nephew, Mitchell, were

33:48

never interviewed, never in the case files,

33:50

names never mentioned.

33:52

And they lived

33:53

next to the Petty farm. And there was stuff

33:55

being stolen. Mr. Petty has that in the case

33:57

file. Him saying, Billy.

33:59

in the Wright family were stealing

34:02

off my property.

34:03

But there's no follow up with them.

34:05

There's no conversation with them anywhere.

34:08

So what I did is, of course, I'm calling

34:10

everybody up and down, you know, who

34:13

lived up and down the road here from the

34:15

petties

34:16

and everyone's like, I'm surprised the cops

34:18

never came and talked to me. And so I did

34:20

finally and talking to different people because

34:22

Billy has always been the name that when you talk

34:24

to community people, everyone thinks Billy

34:27

killed her. It's like that town rumor,

34:29

or maybe it's

34:29

true.

34:31

Billy, Billy, Billy, Billy, Billy did

34:33

have mental health issues. He was a drinker.

34:35

You know, he would sit at the bar and talk to himself. People

34:38

describe him as creepy and they would stay

34:40

away from him. He had really bad hygiene.

34:43

Like he was just one of those people that people didn't have

34:45

to associate with if they didn't have to. So everyone

34:47

would say Billy, Billy, and we're like, this guy's being a scapegoat,

34:50

because,

34:50

right, because of all these things. It turns out

34:53

that when we look at everything and

34:55

I've talked to an ex-girlfriend of Billy's

34:57

back then, he has a very physical

34:59

background. He has a hot temper. He

35:02

always carried a gun on him 24 seven. But

35:04

I spoke to somebody who said, well, Billy

35:07

told somebody that Mitchell, his nephew

35:09

killed Judy,

35:10

and that they burned her up in the cellar. For 16

35:13

years, nobody has ever mentioned

35:15

Mitchell's name or Billy saying

35:18

he knows who did it.

35:19

So that was a big breakthrough for this case.

35:22

Since

35:22

nobody has ever heard those two names, I

35:25

don't think Billy would call somebody up and say, hey,

35:27

this person killed Judy for shits and giggles.

35:30

I mean, it's not something you just say.

35:32

And he had details about what happened. This

35:34

person asked Billy, were you there? Were

35:36

you part of it? And he didn't deny it. It's

35:38

like this crazy like,

35:40

mom and dad, Chris, and then you've got Billy,

35:42

and then you've got the nephew. And it's like-

35:44

And so Billy and his nephew, they lived

35:47

on the property. Billy was

35:49

seen around town talking to himself.

35:52

Do you know if he was hearing

35:55

voices back? Yeah, people

35:56

would say like he would have full blown conversations

35:59

to himself out loud.

35:59

But then people also describe him as very

36:02

smart, smart enough to get away with something.

36:04

Someone told me that they told somebody

36:07

at the bar, don't fuck with Billy. He's

36:09

very smart and he could get away with murder.

36:11

And I'm like,

36:12

that's very interesting.

36:14

So people would say you would have conversations

36:16

with Billy. He'd be off in his own world. But

36:18

if you said, Hey, Billy, he

36:20

could snap out of it and

36:22

have a conversation with you. And I just got confirmation

36:25

the other night, he would use the trail.

36:27

So there's a trail from Billy's house to the

36:29

petty property. Back then they could use ATVs,

36:32

they could use tractors. Billy and his family

36:34

would go up and steal from the petty property and

36:36

then take it back. And you know,

36:38

Billy had told this person that the reason

36:41

Judy was killed was because she knew too

36:43

much. And I'm like, how would Judy know? But

36:45

I do believe she showed up and surprised

36:48

them.

36:48

They're either stealing stuff from their property.

36:51

The other thing to know is that Billy had a huge crush

36:53

on Judy, huge crush on Judy.

36:55

So she shows up. I mean, it's a crime

36:57

of opportunity. I'm not quite sure. So

37:00

it's just interesting how she

37:02

was burned in the place she hated. She

37:05

just happened to show up on her family property and

37:08

this happened.

37:09

The question that you said,

37:11

Chris, was inconclusive

37:13

is whether or not he knows who

37:15

killed Judy. And he said, no. Had

37:18

he ever mentioned Billy or Mitchell in

37:20

any circles before?

37:21

Yes, Billy. So Billy would always

37:23

be at this bar,

37:24

the same bar that Chris was at. But Billy always

37:27

sat by himself. No one really talked to

37:29

Billy. But I just looked it up. I forgot.

37:31

From Billy's house to the petty property

37:34

at 64 yards.

37:35

I know Mitchell was Billy's nephew.

37:38

He's also not with us anymore. What's the age

37:40

difference there? I guess how old was he at the time

37:42

of Judy's death? He

37:43

would have been, I think in his 20s. He

37:46

died from a drug overdose

37:48

from heroin. What we know about Mitchell

37:51

is that

37:52

he was always going on people's

37:54

property. He was known as the town thief. So

37:56

Mitchell would scope out places during the day,

37:59

go at night.

37:59

right as a TV, he would steal

38:02

things to then sell for his pill

38:04

addiction. He then got into meth and

38:06

would make meth out in the woods, the shake and bake method

38:08

as I'm learning.

38:09

So the best place you could do that is a property

38:12

like the putties, right? It's 65

38:14

yards from your uncle's property.

38:17

You've been up there. You have a seller from the

38:19

elements, right? You can go down the steps and

38:21

you have protection, but also

38:23

I'm learning. Is it metallic that

38:26

you would pawn off to then

38:28

make meth? So it's just interesting

38:30

because then you have Billy, you

38:32

know, took his life. When I looked at it,

38:35

it shocked me. He died January

38:37

24th of 2015,

38:39

which is coming up to Judy

38:42

anniversary of her death, which is February 8th.

38:44

And when I took a look at that, I thought, well,

38:46

that's interesting because every year

38:49

Parker's bird does big news

38:52

in the family, they, they put it back out. But

38:54

we believe,

38:56

I believe that Billy Mitchell

38:58

and Billy sister, Kim,

39:01

right? Who's alive is all involved.

39:03

Kim won't talk to us. She refuses to talk.

39:06

She slams the door. She won't answer questions.

39:09

She says we're trying to kill her. So she's

39:11

not willing to try to help clear her brother

39:14

or her son. And you have to wonder why when

39:16

everyone else is talking, I just found out

39:18

too. She would also be up on the petty farm

39:20

stealing.

39:21

So I'm like, Oh my God, how many people? And

39:23

I think that's why it hasn't been solved or

39:26

people talking is because it's just little,

39:28

this family, everybody, um,

39:30

that I've talked to.

39:32

Doesn't have nice things to say about this family. And

39:35

so I think that's why it's been able

39:37

to been kept so,

39:38

so small. And we'll be right back after

39:40

a quick word from our sponsors.

39:45

Say

39:45

all week long with black Friday deals.

39:47

And my work feels so good. You've

39:50

got to celebrate. Don't

39:52

miss out on deals. Like buy one, get one for a

39:54

dollar shoes for the family. 59 99 Keurig

39:58

single serve Brewer and get 30. off

40:00

the Lex Lego playset. Oh yeah!

40:03

Plus, you get the same savings in store

40:05

and online. Shop

40:07

Black Friday deals at Meijer all week

40:09

long and find more reasons to celebrate.

40:12

Exclusion supplies the all deals in the Meijer

40:14

app.

40:16

On a hot summer night

40:19

in 1988, Jane Barosky was stabbed 27

40:22

times by an unknown man. She

40:24

was seven months pregnant.

40:27

My name is Jane Barosky. I survived

40:31

and I remember everything.

40:32

Jane is the lone survivor of the Valley

40:35

Killer who prowled the borderland

40:37

of Vermont and New Hampshire and murdered

40:39

at least eight other women. I'm your host

40:42

Jennifer Amell and this is Dark

40:44

Valley. Jane and I didn't

40:46

set out to solve this but in

40:48

the course of a two-year investigation

40:51

this happened. You

40:53

know the police aren't going to be happy with me sharing

40:55

this. Not about secrets anymore. It's not about

40:57

hiding. Connecting this person not

40:59

only to my sister's murder but

41:02

to the other murders as well.

41:05

Cool in the search for America's unknown

41:07

serial killer. Subscribe to Dark

41:09

Valley and binge the entire 12 episodes

41:12

of season one.

41:19

Hey listeners it's Tim and Lance here and we wanted

41:21

to remind you that we have a little show out there called

41:24

Crawl Space. On Crawl Space we

41:26

dive deep into a number of cold cases

41:28

not just one-offs but for as many episodes

41:30

as we need to raise awareness and tell

41:32

stories of people impacted by crime.

41:35

And we are constantly striving to inform our

41:37

listeners about topics and events that they

41:40

may not realize have an effect on their

41:42

lives. Experts, authors, survivors

41:44

and educators in the field of psychology,

41:47

criminology, advocacy, history

41:49

and more join us as we work together to understand

41:52

our community. We like to say Crawl Space

41:54

is the place where crime meets culture.

41:56

You can find Crawl Space wherever you listen to your

41:58

podcasts.

42:02

Thanks to our sponsors and now we're back to the program.

42:06

Man, I feel terrible for the Petty family.

42:08

I mean, everyone's stealing from them and then this happens

42:10

and what kind of community are you

42:12

trying to be a part of? How did they even manage

42:15

to remain there?

42:16

The rest of the community has been great and what

42:18

has happened since our investigation is everybody

42:21

wanting justice for the Pettys.

42:22

And you know, really coming together,

42:25

we had a hell of a benefit there in Parkersburg

42:27

last February for the anniversary. People

42:29

donated items, we raised money to increase

42:32

the reward fund. You know, I'm getting more

42:34

leads this week in regards to

42:36

Kim's involvement and everyone's just saying,

42:38

you know, Kim's not going to talk, Kim's not going to talk. And

42:40

she hasn't been, but what's interesting too

42:42

is that we have strong

42:45

reason to believe and a lawyer did confirm

42:47

this, that Kim wrote Billy's suicide

42:50

note, leaving the property to herself.

42:52

Now, how did a lawyer confirm that?

42:54

So we've talked to somebody who said that

42:56

they compared Billy's handwriting to Kim's

42:59

in regards to the will

43:02

testament that was written. It was one of

43:04

the other siblings who was left out of this. He

43:06

didn't want to press charges or go after them because

43:09

they didn't have anything. He just wanted his entitlement.

43:11

Billy had a lot of money. He had a lot of money coming

43:13

from mineral rights

43:14

that was in the mail when he killed himself. The

43:17

check that hadn't been received yet. What is that? It's

43:19

like the property, the oil, the oil on the

43:21

oil rig up there. So they have oil.

43:24

And so Billy would get thousands of dollars

43:26

for the mineral

43:27

rights. Is the check cashed?

43:30

I don't know if it was cashed. I know that Kim

43:32

managed all the financials. It's a weird

43:35

thing. If you ever get a chance to look on our Facebook,

43:37

we posted the side by side of Billy's

43:39

actual signature that was on court documents

43:41

and the Kim signature. And you can tell that

43:43

it's not

43:44

the same handwriting. Apologies if I

43:46

missed it during this conversation, but how did

43:48

Billy kill himself? Shaka. His

43:51

house

43:52

and the auction house, that's his

43:54

property that now Kim owns.

43:57

He drove from his driveway, went around,

43:59

went to the auction.

43:59

house got out and then shot himself.

44:02

Had he ever expressed the desire

44:04

to commit suicide in the past?

44:06

Nobody has said that. We've had a lot of people

44:09

really struggling the fact that he

44:11

did that. A lot of people are like, no way.

44:14

There's no way he would do that. He

44:16

had this money coming. There was no reason

44:18

for him to do this. And then we have other

44:20

people saying, well, he was very afraid of Mitchell

44:22

because Mitchell was always coming around

44:25

for money at that time, wanting

44:27

money for drugs. Now I have

44:29

to wonder, is there not this correlation

44:31

of knowing what happened to Judy, pressure

44:33

to keep quiet, the weight

44:36

of it all? Was there blackmail going

44:38

on? And that's what I mean. There's so much to

44:40

this. It's hard not to try to get lost

44:43

in the weeds. So I might have gone too far

44:45

down in the weeds with

44:47

throwing everybody in here, but it's a

44:49

crazy dynamic. So what are

44:51

your thoughts on this being

44:53

one person who may have done this or

44:55

more than one?

44:57

I think there was definitely more than one. I think that

44:59

Billy himself, according to our source,

45:02

didn't deny being there, didn't deny being

45:04

involved. And based on what Billy himself

45:06

had said, I believe that it very much

45:08

could have been Billy and Mitchell up there

45:10

stealing

45:11

something happened. And then,

45:14

you know, they called Kim who then helped clean it

45:16

up. So Kim is like the mother hen. So

45:18

everything funneled through Kim, all

45:20

decisions, the money they

45:23

were into selling pills

45:25

illegally through the auction house. They

45:28

also went through, they had

45:30

marijuana plants growing on

45:32

the line of the petty farm. So

45:34

you could say, oh, it's not mine, it's theirs kind of thing. So

45:37

there is a lot of things that were going

45:39

on back then. So I think there was more than one, for

45:42

sure. And either, you know, Mitchell

45:44

did kill Judy and Billy was

45:46

there or knows about it.

45:48

Either way, Kim knows what happened.

45:50

Either it was Billy or it was Mitchell. You know, I'm

45:52

tending to go towards more towards Billy

45:54

given he had the crush on Judy. I've heard

45:57

from another source that they heard that he raped

45:59

her.

45:59

and killed her. I guess I can't

46:02

confirm any of that, but the

46:04

more people that are kind of saying the same thing, there

46:06

has to be some truth in that

46:08

as we continue to build

46:10

a case for the prosecuting attorney. These

46:12

things that you've heard people say are those things

46:14

that are submitted directly to law enforcement

46:17

as tips?

46:17

Yeah. So I'm working again with the

46:20

detective for the prosecuting attorney. His name is

46:22

Doug, and I give him everything

46:24

that I have. He has sat

46:27

in on interviews with phone calls

46:29

that I've had. He's spoken to people that I've spoken

46:31

to.

46:32

And so right now I'm looking at putting it all

46:34

together. My understanding is

46:37

that because both Billy and Mitchell

46:40

have died, that

46:41

what we need to do is build

46:43

a case, a circumstantial case, which I have

46:45

a ton of circumstantial evidence that puts them

46:47

up there, puts the violent history, all

46:50

of that there. And therefore the sheriff

46:52

to say it's reasonable to believe that

46:54

this person was involved in the case and to close it that

46:56

way. And at the beginning of this conversation,

46:59

I had said homicide, but that's just my own personal opinion.

47:01

I just want to be clear about that. I said homicide just

47:04

based on like reading what you've come up with in the

47:06

research and everything. But what is it actually

47:08

classified as officially? Undetermined. I'm

47:10

calling it a homicide because

47:12

we want to treat it as a homicide until proven

47:14

otherwise. The saving grace was her liver.

47:17

The killer literally got that lucky. It's

47:19

almost the perfect storm, right? Everything

47:21

collapsed on her. It was an oven, basically

47:24

a tin roof. Nobody knew she was underneath

47:26

it. The one thing that helped was she was curled

47:28

sideways. And I think that's what protected

47:31

her liver. I mean, if they would have put that fire out

47:33

when they saw it, we would have had

47:35

more of her. Her

47:37

steel toe boot

47:38

was recovered. So that was in there

47:40

from the hiking boots. I guess they're very uncomfortable. I've

47:43

never worn them, but most people say you don't

47:45

want to walk 13 miles in those boots.

47:47

Now I'm not sure of Judy's personality,

47:49

but do you think she would have confronted

47:51

somebody if she saw them

47:54

stealing from her property or

47:56

from that property?

47:57

I don't think she would have confronted them. I think

47:59

she would have asked. like what's going on? What

48:01

are you doing here? Very nice, very,

48:04

she was always nice to Billy, not

48:06

because she's rude, but she's just a nice person,

48:08

like her parents. You know, that's where I'm wondering when

48:10

Billy's like, oh, she knew too much, so they

48:12

got rid of her. They burned her up in that corn crib.

48:15

I think that either there was doing

48:17

drugs or doing something, stealing something

48:19

that they knew that she would tell her

48:22

parents. But something much worse than homicide

48:25

and

48:25

burning. I mean, I don't know the real motive

48:28

behind that. Well, it really is

48:30

such a tragic story because it seems

48:33

like this person who wasn't out to

48:35

harm anybody, it didn't have

48:37

a bone to pick with anybody and no one

48:39

seemed to have any issue with

48:41

her just seems to be in the wrong place at the wrong

48:43

time. And you're right, I mean, this could

48:45

have been the perfect crime had it not

48:47

been for the discovery of the liver. What is it going

48:50

to take though? What is it going to take for somebody

48:52

to say something about this? Because if it's been

48:54

this long, they're thinking that they've basically

48:57

gotten away with it.

48:57

And that's the thing I've been fighting against too. My

49:00

partner, Justin Rimmel, he does the podcast

49:02

editing of this all. So Justin

49:05

and I are the leaders on

49:07

this. And so

49:08

we've talked about this quite a bit.

49:11

And I think it's ultimately going

49:13

to be the pressure on Kim to

49:15

talk. So, Kim's not

49:17

willing to talk and everyone's been so afraid of this

49:19

family. Everyone I've talked to, they don't want

49:21

to talk about this family. They all

49:23

think this family's into

49:25

a lot of stuff. It's always been hush, hush.

49:28

I have a lot of people who want to remain anonymous

49:31

while talking to me. And I think

49:33

back in the day in 2008, I think they

49:36

had a lot of pull. Today, people aren't

49:38

as afraid to talk. So I'm getting a lot

49:40

more information and hopefully

49:42

Kim will show up. Because the

49:45

other thing I said to somebody too, is they're like, you're

49:47

just trying to put it on Billy and Mitchell.

49:49

They're dead, they can't defend themselves. You're looking for

49:51

a scapegoat, right?

49:53

You get all of that noise and it's coming from

49:55

that family. Well,

49:57

they were okay with Chris Cutwright being the scapegoat

49:59

for 15 years.

49:59

years.

50:00

No one said anything about that, but

50:03

it's their job to help defend

50:05

and speak for

50:07

their family member, right? It's up

50:09

to Kim. I mean, we were just going to ask her basic

50:11

questions, such as, Hey, did Billy ever

50:13

tell you anything? Did Billy ever

50:16

mentioned that he heard something, that he saw

50:18

something he would walk around at night?

50:21

Do you know? And she would even get on the phone

50:23

and answer those questions. I mean, she doesn't

50:25

even know what we were going to ask her. It's just

50:27

interesting that now it's kind of like,

50:29

well, it's really up to you to defend your

50:31

family member.

50:32

You don't really think that she cares, right? To

50:34

do it? No,

50:35

no, because I think she knows. I think she has

50:37

some culpability in it, if you will, because

50:40

there's no everyone who I've talked to said if Billy

50:43

did do this or Mitchell,

50:45

they would, their first phone call would have been to Kim

50:48

and Kim would have come up with the plan or

50:50

help.

50:51

So I guarantee you, she knows what's

50:53

going on because she's gotten so defensive. She

50:55

refuses to talk. She tells other

50:58

people not to talk to us. She says we're trying

51:00

to kill her. And I'm like, by doing

51:02

what? Like asking questions and trying to

51:04

solve a murder? How

51:05

are we trying to kill you, Kim?

51:07

Like, is this much stress because we're looking at

51:09

Judy's murder? If

51:10

you have nothing to do with this, and your family had

51:13

nothing to do this?

51:14

Why is it stressing you out so much?

51:16

It's a great question. I'd like to think that

51:18

she'd be listening to this program.

51:20

I

51:20

hope so. But

51:23

we'll put this on our podcast, of course,

51:26

and so everyone can come over and listen. And

51:28

we have a huge support

51:30

system in our Facebook group and our page and

51:32

people get excited about our episodes.

51:34

And so they will listen to this. And I guarantee you,

51:37

they will listen. They've been following along.

51:40

They've been listening to our podcast. They have

51:42

people in our Facebook group monitoring

51:44

what we're saying and doing. So

51:46

Kim, call me. Well, big thanks

51:48

to you, Melissa, for coming on and

51:50

helping us learn about Judy's story.

51:52

And shout out Justin too, because we

51:54

know him and we even did a panel with him

51:57

years ago at a crime con. Thank you very

51:59

much, Melissa. Where can people find more

52:01

about this case?

52:02

So we have our podcast. It's

52:04

called Safe Haven, the Unsolved Murder

52:06

of Judith Petty.

52:08

And also our Facebook group is the same

52:10

name. You can find us at Safe Haven, the Unsolved

52:13

Murder of Judith Petty. And it's crowdsourcing.

52:15

So what that means is people come on, send us

52:17

information, tips, ideas. Have you tried

52:19

this? Have you looked at this? The

52:21

more people that lay eyes on this case

52:23

might see things we didn't see or ask

52:25

questions that we didn't think

52:27

of. So it's a really great way to get

52:30

people involved in true crime who want

52:32

to help. But like myself, right, they're not cops.

52:34

So a lot of people in Parkersburg

52:37

are helping.

53:05

We all know a guy who only occasionally

53:07

shaves for big occasions. And it's because

53:10

that occasional shave really hurts. It's

53:12

the time of year for big occasions. And yet there

53:14

he is, suffering with that cheap drugstore razor.

53:16

Let's help him out. Henson Shaving's line

53:18

of razors, built with aerospace precision, deliver

53:21

a smooth shave your dad, brother, and even son

53:23

can enjoy, eventually. With replacement blades

53:25

just $0.10 each, you'll buy it once and

53:27

they'll use it for life. How's that for the perfect

53:29

gift? Celebrate with 100 free blades

53:31

on your first purchase. And no subscription headaches.

53:34

HensonShaving.com slash

53:35

holiday.

53:36

We all know a guy who only occasionally

53:39

shaves for big occasions. And it's because

53:41

that occasional shave really hurts. It's

53:43

the time of year for big occasions. And yet there

53:45

he is, suffering with that cheap drugstore razor.

53:47

Let's help him out. Henson Shaving's line of

53:50

razors, built with aerospace precision, deliver

53:52

a smooth shave your dad, brother, and even son

53:54

can enjoy, eventually. With replacement blades

53:56

just $0.10 each, you'll buy it once and

53:58

they'll use it for life.

53:59

that for the perfect gift. Celebrate with 100 free

54:02

blades on your first purchase. And no subscription

54:04

headaches. Hensethshaving.com

54:06

slash holiday.

54:07

This is the Glassbox Media

54:10

Podcast.