0:00

This is a Glassbox Media Podcast.

0:41

Welcome back to Missing. I am Tim here today

0:43

with Lance. Lance, how are you today? I

0:46

am doing so well today, Tim. I hope everyone out

0:48

there who's listening, I hope they're doing just as well

0:50

as I'm doing. I'm

0:52

excited to reintroduce this case to

0:55

our audience. Part two

0:57

is coming on Thursday. This

1:00

is an episode that we recorded

1:02

a couple of years ago. We

1:04

speak about the disappearance of Barbara

1:06

Louise Cotton. She was 15 years

1:08

old. She disappeared from Williston, North

1:10

Dakota on April 11th, 1981. And

1:14

we speak with the host

1:16

of the exceptional podcast, Dakota Spotlight.

1:18

Yes, his name's James Wallner.

1:21

Great guy, really dedicated to this missing

1:24

persons case. And

1:26

he's done about five seasons on his

1:28

show, Dakota Spotlight. You can check out

1:30

dakotaspotlight.com. It's kind of a great catch

1:33

all. You can obviously link to listen

1:35

there as well. His podcast

1:38

is interesting and obviously we

1:40

have some similar interests and

1:42

experiences, Lance, having covered missing

1:44

persons cases in depth for

1:46

several years now. And

1:48

so I hope you enjoy this interview.

1:51

And if you have any information in

1:53

the disappearance of Barbara Cotton, please contact

1:55

the Williston Police Department at 701-579-4222. 7-7-1-2-1-2.

2:03

Alright we're going to break quick for commercial here.

2:05

We're going to be right back with James Wollner.

2:13

Before we begin today's episode you're

2:15

about to hear a word from

2:17

our sponsors. These ads make our

2:19

show possible. However, we do offer

2:21

an ad-free version of this show

2:23

on Missing and Crawl Space Premium.

2:25

And you can subscribe to Missing

2:27

and Crawl Space Premium for ad-free

2:29

listening, bonus episodes and early access

2:31

to all episodes. You can subscribe

2:33

by going to Missing.SupportingCast.fm or click

2:35

the link in our bio to

2:37

sign up. Use code missing for

2:39

one free month on Supporting Cast

2:41

and for you Apple Podcast listeners

2:43

you can also join directly on

2:45

Apple Podcasts by clicking try free

2:47

at the top of the feed.

2:49

Now a word from our sponsors.

2:51

Tim and Lance here. Lance I

2:53

got a question for you. Yes

2:55

sir. Am I the butt head

2:57

for stealing an engagement ring or

2:59

for ruining an entire dog Olympics?

3:01

Is that something you've actually done

3:03

Tim or are you presenting me

3:05

with a hypothetical scenario? I'm presenting

3:07

you with a hypothetical scenario that's

3:09

based on Rslash which is a

3:11

new podcast that I've been listening

3:13

to. It's fantastic. Tim and you

3:15

know that I love a good

3:18

Reddit scroll so Rslash is my

3:20

kind of show. I think it's

3:22

your kind of show as well

3:24

and for those who don't know

3:26

Rslash is a hilarious podcast where

3:29

Dabney Bailey uses ridiculous voices and

3:31

emotions to read aloud the week's

3:33

craziest Reddit posts. He reenacts various

3:35

Reddit threads covering wild stories and

3:37

secrets, petty revenge, relationships and much

3:40

more. So if you're looking for

3:42

a daily distraction and a

3:44

laugh check out Rslash wherever

3:46

you get your podcast. Tim

3:49

can you spell that for me? Your

3:51

can Lance that's R-S-L-A-S-H. You

4:04

have been digging into the disappearance

4:06

of Barbara Louise Cotton for quite

4:09

some time and you've been doing

4:11

a podcast too. Can you tell

4:13

us a little bit about your

4:15

deep dive into this disappearance case?

4:18

So I've been doing the podcast for a couple

4:21

years for sure. Believe

4:23

it or not, Barbara Cotton, I only

4:26

started working on that in January

4:28

of this year but it's just really

4:30

taken off. I mean this

4:33

community up in Williston, North Dakota

4:35

where she went missing. I've got so much

4:37

support so quickly, especially

4:39

my Facebook group. I

4:42

wanted to start working on it a couple years ago.

4:44

You're right there. I'd sent

4:47

some interview requests to a retired

4:49

detective and he respectfully declined. Then

4:52

I reached out to Williston PD. He suggested

4:54

I reach out to Williston PD. She

4:57

really got any response there at all. So

4:59

I kind of dropped it, put on the back

5:02

burner. I honestly went up to Williston where Barbara

5:04

went missing in January

5:06

thinking this will probably be a one episode

5:08

thing. Little

5:10

background, I guess Barbara went missing on April 11,

5:12

1981. So

5:16

it was 40 years just recently. The

5:19

story goes that she was walking home

5:21

from a restaurant in downtown

5:23

Williston and just never

5:25

made it home. Five block walk on

5:27

a Saturday night. She's 15 years

5:29

old, beautiful girl. Everyone

5:32

I've spoken to says friends and

5:34

family that she was just very

5:36

kind and generous. I don't believe

5:39

it's one of those cliche things we

5:41

hear in all the stories where, oh,

5:44

walked into the room and she

5:46

lit up a room. It becomes

5:48

a cliche, right? So I'm kind of

5:50

weary of even trusting those sources at first,

5:53

but I got to say everything

5:55

I've learned, she did really seem to

5:57

be very kind and perhaps to a

5:59

fall. a little too trusting

6:02

and forgiving or I should say trusting

6:05

maybe a little bit gullible even so that

6:07

might have eventually got her into trouble we're

6:09

not sure but she's

6:11

never been seen from or heard from again and

6:14

I went up to Williston

6:16

thinking you know here's a maybe a one-episode story

6:18

I'll try to find out what was her route

6:21

home and since then

6:23

it is just kind of taken off because

6:25

I'll tell you what I expected to find

6:27

out up there I expected after 40 years

6:31

I would expect the family to say you

6:33

know what we're tired of talking about this

6:35

done already you know we're so tired

6:37

of the cops talking to us and you know we don't

6:40

want to look at you know

6:42

40 years is a long time I expected one of

6:44

those stories where all the leads had been worked

6:47

out and saturated but what

6:49

I found out was that Barbara

6:53

siblings who are in the podcast have

6:55

no recollection of ever being spoken to

6:57

by law enforcement until about one

7:00

or two years ago their

7:02

childhood friend Sandy was never spoken

7:04

to and I've

7:06

learned during this podcast I did get

7:08

an interview with one of the current

7:11

day investigators and

7:14

if I understand this correctly which I

7:16

guess I do the last person to

7:18

see Barbara a gentleman named

7:20

Stacy Werder was never interviewed

7:23

by police ever he's

7:25

deceased today actually hung himself in

7:28

jail three months later and

7:32

there's another person who was one

7:34

of Barbara's friends who said she saw Barbara

7:36

at a party that night and

7:40

I could

7:42

not get it confirmed from present-day law

7:44

enforcement that she was ever spoken to

7:47

or the response I've gotten from

7:49

them is well just because we don't have

7:51

a record of it doesn't mean they weren't

7:53

interviewed and so

7:56

it's created a lot of

7:58

frustration My podcast,

8:00

you know, looking into this, like I said,

8:03

I was expecting this is going to be no

8:05

one's gonna want to talk to me. The police are gonna

8:07

say here take a look at this if you want. We

8:09

don't know what to do. I mean, I've had that happen

8:11

to me. I've looked at a couple Police

8:16

files from Bismarck PD where they said, you know,

8:18

we've exhausted everything you're welcome to look at this

8:20

It's open and ongoing but

8:22

instead it's kind of like we

8:24

suddenly have the situation where people are

8:26

kind of Not in an

8:29

uproar, but there's a lot of frustrated listeners

8:32

people including the friends and family

8:34

of especially the friends of Barbara

8:36

Cotton who are like Come

8:39

on Was this

8:41

really looked into and

8:43

present day investigators are trying in the

8:45

interview I had with with a one

8:47

investigator so we're not here to talk

8:49

about mistakes that might have been made

8:51

which I guess is True

8:54

to a certain point, but how do we get to

8:56

the truth? How do we find out what could have

8:58

been missed if we don't at least? Look

9:01

at that and I've rambled. I haven't rambled but I've talked

9:03

for a long time. So I'm gonna know No,

9:06

okay. Yeah, you've set up the story

9:08

nicely for us. I've got I've got

9:10

several questions First

9:12

one I guess is how big is

9:14

the Williston Police Department? Well,

9:18

let's see they probably have I mean it's

9:20

it's an oil so this is in the

9:22

oil country and Northwestern, North Dakota,

9:24

so this is a I think there's 28,000

9:27

people in Williston today. So

9:29

that's one of the bigger cities in North

9:32

Dakota. So the Williston

9:34

Police Department is You

9:36

know appropriately the size for that size

9:39

of town whatever that would be. It's

9:41

a 25,000 population today It's

9:44

28,000 today. Yeah, I think it was 13

9:47

when she went missing. Oh, so it's definitely

9:49

grown in the 40 years Yes,

9:51

yes, and did you say something about

9:54

those? It's like an oil town in

9:56

oil city people up there They'd speak

9:58

in terms of oil booms and oil

10:00

crashes. So with

10:02

the boom comes money, employers,

10:05

employment, a lot of people from out

10:07

of state, right, who maybe

10:09

background checks weren't always really done

10:12

correctly. Kind of like

10:14

the Wild Wild West, the gold rush, right?

10:16

You get prostitution, drugs, crime

10:18

goes up, cost of living goes up.

10:21

So the people, locals, they're

10:23

on the fence a little bit, right?

10:25

On the one hand, here comes all

10:27

this money to our community, but there's

10:29

a lot of trouble that comes with

10:31

it. And you mentioned the last person

10:33

who saw Barbara was never

10:35

interviewed by police, but

10:37

before his death, was there any statement or

10:40

any account of what he saw that

10:42

night? There was something that I discovered,

10:45

you might say. So I, first of all,

10:49

I had to search for this guy's name on

10:51

my own. Wilson PD did not give me this

10:53

name. I had to work off of the fact

10:55

that I received knowledge from one

10:58

of Barbara's siblings that, who

11:00

had heard from police, that I think his first

11:02

name was Stacy. I did email

11:04

one of the detectives at Wilson PD

11:06

once I found this individual. I mean,

11:08

I had to go through newspapers.com searching

11:11

suicide 1981 Stacy Montana until

11:16

I finally found an article. I asked

11:18

Wilson PD to confirm so I wouldn't

11:20

be talking on the podcast by, in

11:22

the chance that there were two Stacys

11:24

that committed suicide in 1981, you know,

11:26

trying to fact-check things. Got

11:29

no response. So I

11:31

tracked down this guy's sisters in

11:33

Northern California, actually, up in Huayrica,

11:36

and spoke to the sisters. And

11:39

they confirmed that it was their brother because one

11:42

of the sisters said, well, when I got your

11:44

email, I figured you were either an old friend

11:46

of my brother's or this has something to do

11:48

with Barbara Cotton. So they

11:51

knew that their brother had this association with

11:53

this girl that is missing. And then in

11:56

my episode 5, I interviewed

11:58

both sisters. And they

12:00

are confident that their brother was not

12:03

only, well, he was definitely, according

12:05

to them, capable of murder. They had

12:07

some really frightening stories to tell of

12:09

their own. My

12:11

whole listener, you know, everyone

12:14

heard this on episode five. And

12:16

then the next episode was this

12:18

interview with Williston PD. And

12:20

really the only thing I wanted to, not the only

12:23

thing, but the main point I wanted to ask them

12:25

was, was this Stacey Warder

12:27

somehow cleared at some point? Because

12:30

I have two sisters saying he

12:32

was a bad dude, and we've

12:34

always thought he had something to

12:36

do with Barbara's disappearance. Well,

12:39

first of all, I should add, those two sisters

12:41

were never spoken to by any law enforcement either.

12:43

I was the first person to talk to them

12:45

about this. Well, I find

12:48

that unbelievable, and I'm not saying that

12:50

someone's lying, but I find it kind

12:53

of crazy that two sisters of

12:55

this – I guess you can call

12:57

them a person of interest, Stacey Warder. He was. Two

13:00

sisters feel this way. Do

13:03

you know what he was in prison for

13:05

when he committed suicide? Yeah,

13:07

it was a small thing. He like

13:09

disorderly conduct, I think, something like that.

13:12

And their sister said he had

13:14

mental issues. He was kind of a

13:16

drifter. I mean, according to the

13:19

younger sister, they once burned their house

13:21

down in California when they were kids,

13:24

and a lot of other stuff that I don't even really want to talk about. So

13:27

for 30 years, these two sisters were

13:29

waiting for a call about Barbara Cotton,

13:31

and you were that call? 40

13:33

years, yeah. 40 years. And

13:36

so here's the interesting thing. You guys know about Team

13:38

Adam, the detective.

13:41

I think we are detectives who – pro

13:44

bono, retired detectives. My understanding

13:47

is that one

13:49

more kind of interesting information that reflects

13:52

on the power of a podcast sometimes.

14:00

childhood friend has been trying to find answers

14:02

her whole life, you know, off and on

14:04

and 10 years ago she managed to get

14:06

the Williston newspaper to print an article and

14:08

then I come along 10 years after

14:10

that I Was

14:13

asking for questions answers to questions from

14:15

Wilson PD for weeks and weeks before

14:17

the podcast came out Barbara's

14:19

childhood friend Sandy Evanson had

14:22

been trying to get in return. She

14:24

had returned a call Never heard

14:26

anything and it was very frustrated and then

14:28

after episode 3 of my podcast came out

14:30

I got to email two emails from the

14:32

PD. She got a call Barbara's sister got

14:35

a call. I mean it happened immediately

14:38

and I Mean

14:40

that's cool But it's also a little

14:42

bit frustrating that it takes someone annoying

14:44

guy like me with a microphone for

14:47

that to sort of take place

14:49

right, but When you're

14:51

ready for it, there's actually two persons of

14:53

interest who hung themselves in jail Let's

14:56

let's talk about that in a second. I want to

14:58

back up a little bit just to the time that

15:00

she disappeared She's 15 years old in

15:04

this small city large town small

15:06

city and You described it

15:08

a little bit like the Wild West where there was

15:10

some you know with with this type of industry comes

15:12

a bit Of trouble was she

15:14

involved in any of this trouble and the party

15:16

that she was at was this something where there

15:18

was? any

15:21

sort of illicit drug use or

15:23

alcohol consumption or anything Sorted

15:27

of nature was she involved in any of that?

15:29

Yeah, so Barbara was starting

15:31

to run a little bit Get

15:34

into a little bit of trouble

15:36

I guess she was Arguing

15:39

a lot with her mother. Basically Barbara wanted

15:41

to move out of her house, which Added

15:45

to the fact that law enforcement ever originally thought

15:47

she was a runaway, right? So there

15:50

were a lot of arguments in the home and Barbara

15:54

was starting to

15:56

I guess I don't know this for certain but the party

15:59

she was at which I I had to also track

16:01

down. I mean, no one has heard of this

16:03

party until I interviewed law enforcement.

16:05

They did tell us that this

16:08

unnamed friend said they

16:10

saw her at a party, and Barbara's

16:12

siblings had no idea about this, Barbara's

16:14

friends. It's the first time anyone's heard

16:16

about this party, but I did speak

16:19

to the person who I believe was

16:21

the host of the party, and yeah, lots

16:23

of alcohol. Lots of alcohol. And

16:27

Barbara was, her behavior

16:29

was risk, she

16:32

had risk factors, right? She walked

16:34

by herself a lot. She trusted

16:36

everyone. She's walking around at

16:38

night in a city, like you said, where

16:40

it's a little bit of a wild, wild

16:42

west, so. And is it your belief that

16:45

what led to her disappearance was a result

16:47

of anything that might have happened at the

16:49

party? Maybe somebody had followed her, or

16:52

am I getting ahead of some details? We

16:55

don't know, but there are other persons

16:58

of interest I could tell you about,

17:00

this other individual who actually did murder

17:02

two people. In fact, if

17:04

I say the name Andy Johnson, you

17:07

recognize her, she's, I know

17:09

you guys have retweeted some of her

17:11

stuff. She's an advocate for. Oh

17:13

yeah, yeah, Andy, yep. I had her

17:15

on the podcast. Her childhood friend Penny

17:17

Swanson was 12 years old, and another

17:20

girl, Renee Davidson, nine years old, when

17:22

they were murdered in Rawlings, Wyoming.

17:25

And that's how I got in touch with Andy, because the

17:27

man who murdered these two girls,

17:30

Frank de la Pena, was

17:32

in Williston when Barbara went

17:35

missing. So he is another person

17:37

of interest. And

17:39

he left Williston,

17:42

I believe, three weeks after

17:45

Barbara went missing, and

17:48

immediately drove to Rawlings and

17:50

tried to abduct several women,

17:53

and finally did

17:55

manage to abduct these two young girls

17:57

in Rawlings and murdered them the same

17:59

night. So another strong

18:01

person of interest, right? This

18:04

guy gets arrested promptly, hangs

18:06

himself in jail, just like Stacey Worder will do

18:08

two months later. Okay, so now we have two,

18:10

you're just about to say I think the same

18:12

thing I'm gonna say, two

18:15

people that are very closely related and

18:17

possible suspects who hang themselves, they're arrested

18:20

and then they hang themselves

18:22

within a couple of, a few weeks

18:24

of each other? Yeah, so Frank hung

18:27

himself in late May, about one month

18:29

after Barbara went missing. Stacey

18:31

Worder hangs themselves two months

18:33

later in Montana.

18:36

And the connections I do have with

18:38

these guys, potential connections are they both

18:40

worked in the oil

18:42

industry. Aside from that thing

18:45

they have in common that they hung themselves

18:47

in jail within three

18:49

month period of each other. They both

18:52

were in Williston when Barbara disappeared.

18:54

Stacey was seen with her that

18:56

night, Frank was not, but Frank

18:58

did kill two girls three

19:01

weeks later. What do

19:03

you guys think? Is that a coincidence?

19:05

I mean I think all these cases,

19:07

any unsolved missing persons case or unsolved

19:10

murder you're gonna find more than one

19:12

viable person of interest, at least character

19:14

wise who was in the area at

19:16

the time. I would absolutely focus more

19:19

on Stacey though seeing that he was

19:21

seen with him, with Barbara

19:23

that night. Right, and I am doing that,

19:25

I just sent out a, I guess

19:28

technically it's, I'm petitioning the

19:30

courts in Montana to get

19:32

his autopsy

19:35

inquest. So there was an

19:38

autopsy inquest done and

19:40

I've learned through, well you guys know

19:42

how this goes, a little bird

19:44

told me there's photographs in that

19:46

file unfortunately when

19:49

he's deceased, but it would be the closest, it's

19:51

not something I would ever publish, but

19:53

it would be the closest to us getting

19:55

to know what Stacey looked like at the

19:57

time of his death because We

20:00

don't have a lot of photographs of them. And

20:02

another interesting thing to add is pretty

20:05

much nobody until some

20:07

people I spoke with too recently, very

20:09

few people, except

20:12

so Barbara's mother said she saw Barbara

20:15

with Stacy the night she disappeared.

20:19

And she kept referring to this guy as her

20:21

boyfriend. None of her friends, no one else

20:23

knows about this guy. So it must have been, I'm

20:26

pretty sure she had just met Stacy. Going

20:29

back to these two men who hung

20:31

themselves, has

20:33

there been anything beyond

20:36

what you have

20:38

discovered, maybe people telling

20:41

you about other disappearances, other

20:43

murders that were in the

20:45

area prior or just after?

20:47

Because you discovered that

20:49

or you found out that one of them

20:53

had been arrested for

20:55

kidnapping and was it attempted murder or an

20:57

actual murder? Frank Delapena

20:59

killed two girls in Frawlings. Is that

21:01

what you're referring to? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

21:03

So aside from that, is there anything

21:06

else that you've looked at that's

21:08

maybe sort of adjacent to these crimes,

21:10

like some unsolved murders or disappearances around

21:12

that time? Because I feel like you're

21:14

on the heels of like a potential

21:16

serial killer. No, I have not had

21:19

a lot of time. But

21:21

I will tell anyone else listening. So

21:24

I just got some bad news last

21:27

week. You know, a month

21:29

or excuse me, the state of Wyoming have

21:31

been fantastic with my open records request. Our

21:34

hope was that the

21:36

state crime lab processed

21:39

his van, Frank's

21:41

van where the murders took place

21:44

and trailer. And you know,

21:46

we were like, please let their please tell

21:48

us that Montana kept forensic

21:50

evidence from that. And they looked and

21:53

looked and they really did. They

21:55

did a great job. And you know, they

21:58

were themselves like, we're just so sorry. We

22:00

don't we don't know we don't have it

22:02

anymore and even work. I guess worse There's

22:05

no photographs either, but I

22:07

agree with you this guy could have killed other

22:09

people We'll be right back after a

22:11

quick word from our sponsor Lance

22:15

I know you know about Rakuten But

22:18

I want to tell our listeners and

22:20

make sure they're using it because Rakuten

22:22

is the smartest way to save money

22:25

When you shop look we all have

22:27

holiday shopping to do Rakuten though It

22:29

lets you stack holiday sales on top

22:32

of cash back so you can really

22:34

maximize your savings Ah Tim I am

22:36

so glad you brought up Rakuten because

22:39

it's the holiday season and you

22:41

really need a way to make the

22:43

shopping more Efficient and Rakuten will help

22:45

you find the best deals sales coupons

22:48

They do the work of searching for

22:50

the coupon codes So you save time

22:52

and money and earn cash back on

22:55

clothing and shoes for the fashionista toys

22:57

and games for the little ones electronics

22:59

for the tech connoisseur and Kitchen or

23:01

home essentials for the ultimate host or

23:04

hostess in your life, and you might

23:06

be asking yourself What kind of brands

23:08

am I going to be offered here

23:10

with Rakuten? Well you like Nike love

23:13

it They're on there you like Levi's

23:15

yep Sephora. You love Sephora Tim.

23:18

I'm all about Sephora You got a

23:20

pet yep. They got Petco on there

23:23

already shopping So why not get some

23:25

cash back as a matter of fact

23:27

members have earned over four point six

23:29

billion dollars in cash back Tim So

23:31

you're right membership is free, and it's

23:33

easy to sign up so start shopping

23:35

today at rakuten.com Or

23:38

get the Rakuten app and download

23:40

the free browser extension to start

23:42

saving today Happy holidays.

23:45

Happy holidays indeed On

23:49

a hot summer night in 1988 Jane

23:52

Borowski was stabbed 27 times by an unknown man

23:55

She was seven months pregnant My

24:00

name is Jane Borosky. I

24:02

survived and I remember everything. Jane

24:05

is the lone survivor of the Valley

24:07

Killer, who prowled the borderland

24:09

of Vermont and New Hampshire and murdered

24:11

at least eight other women. I'm your

24:14

host, Jennifer Amell, and this

24:16

is Dark Valley. Jane

24:18

and I didn't set out to solve this, but

24:20

in the course of a two-year investigation,

24:23

this happened. You

24:25

know, the police aren't going to be happy

24:27

with me sharing this. It's not about secrets

24:30

anymore. It's not about hiding. Connecting this person,

24:32

not only to my sister's murder, but to

24:34

the other murders as well. Join

24:37

the search for America's unknown

24:39

serial killer, subscribe to Dark Valley,

24:41

and binge the entire 12 episodes

24:44

of season one. Hello,

24:47

it is Ryan, and we could all

24:49

use an extra bright spot in our

24:51

day, couldn't we? Just to make up

24:53

for things like sitting in traffic, doing

24:55

the dishes, counting your steps, you know,

24:57

all the mundane stuff. That is why

24:59

I'm such a big fan of Chumba

25:01

Casino. Chumba Casino has all your favorite

25:03

social casino-style games that you can play

25:05

for free anytime, anywhere, with daily bonuses.

25:07

That should brighten your day a little.

25:09

Actually a lot. So sign up now

25:11

at chumbacasino.com. That's chumbacasino.com. No

25:13

purchase necessary. VDW. Voidware

25:15

prohibited by law. C terms and conditions. 18 plus. Thanks

25:18

to our sponsors, and now we're back to the program. James,

25:22

what's your background? I'm just curious how

25:24

you got into this

25:27

case and podcast. Oddly, I

25:29

studied photojournalism and English

25:31

in college, and then I never worked with it

25:34

at all. I moved to Sweden. I

25:36

worked in web development and

25:38

database development over 20 years, and

25:42

I came back. I was doing that here in

25:44

North Dakota, and I started on the podcast about

25:47

three years ago as

25:50

a reaction to not exactly

25:52

fake news, but even just

25:55

the untruth, like barstool

25:58

stories I've been hearing. the

26:00

way people have taken Facebook to somehow be

26:03

news. I don't know. I got into this

26:05

situation where I just wanted to look

26:08

at one story my first season and

26:11

I guess

26:13

focus on facts and critical thinking and

26:15

can we find the truth? Can one

26:17

person find the truth and kind of

26:19

wanted to demonstrate to others like you

26:23

can do this like anyone, not

26:26

anyone, but you know it's a lot

26:28

of hard work but ask more questions

26:30

you'll get more truth usually. So

26:32

I finally I guess dumped my IT career

26:36

for now and the

26:39

good money that went with it to

26:43

do something I'm very passionate about. Now

26:45

it's really commendable because what you're doing is something

26:47

that you said it at the beginning of this

26:49

no one has done in 40 years

26:52

now, over 40 years. So

26:55

it has to be something really

26:58

interesting to reprogram your

27:01

brain or reprogram the way you're thinking

27:04

career wise to jump into something

27:07

with no conclusion because I can imagine

27:09

being someone I don't I'm not in

27:11

IT but I can imagine somebody in

27:13

IT having a

27:15

definitive result like you

27:17

do this and this and this happens.

27:20

It must be endlessly frustrating to do

27:22

something on one end of the equation

27:24

and not see the result especially when

27:26

you're talking about people who you mentioned

27:30

critical thinking and you'd

27:33

like to see more critical thinking this must

27:35

be loaded with non-critical thinking people if nothing's

27:37

happened in 40 years. So I can't is

27:40

this frustrating to you and

27:42

how does that how does your passion

27:44

overcome that frustration? Yeah it

27:46

gets frustrating. You know

27:49

you get a lot of I'm sure you

27:51

guys got as well a lot of leads

27:53

from listeners and you

27:56

know you want to look at all of them and

27:58

some some just some

28:00

are great tips and some seem like you

28:04

can't even quite connect the dots yourself.

28:06

How did this person come up with

28:08

this theory? I

28:11

would say with this season, with

28:13

Barbara Cotton, the

28:15

most frustrating thing was

28:18

that somehow it

28:20

was quite obvious that, you know,

28:23

I say we at this point, it's my podcast,

28:25

but I have this great following and it's sort

28:27

of a mini movement

28:29

that started for Barbara. We're

28:33

not, as I, you know, I listened to your podcast

28:36

recently about your new show, A Few

28:38

Bad Apples with Catherine. Great show. And

28:41

she kind of brought this up too about,

28:43

I'm not anti-police, I'm just asking

28:46

questions about, you know,

28:48

why wasn't this person spoken to? You

28:50

don't have to immediately go, well, we're not here to bad mouth

28:54

the investigators back then. I'm

28:57

like, no, we're not here for that

28:59

reason either. We're trying to find answers to what happened

29:01

to Barbara Cotton. So that part gets frustrating. And do

29:03

you find that you hit a lot of roadblocks when

29:06

people will automatically

29:08

assume that your intention is

29:11

to just exploit bad

29:13

investigations or mistakes that police have

29:15

made? I

29:17

think acknowledging the mistakes is more important just

29:20

because then you can move on, but

29:22

you're not trying to exploit those mistakes. Do

29:25

people get that confused? I think so. And,

29:27

you know, I haven't had a lot of

29:29

criticism. I should say, you know, people

29:32

who really want to know what happened to Barbara understand

29:35

that, okay, in

29:37

order to sort of reignite this

29:39

investigation, we still have to understand

29:42

what happened in the beginning. I mean, there

29:44

could be very important information by knowing what

29:46

was not done. Right. But

29:49

I told a friend of mine who is in

29:51

law enforcement, not in Williston, that I said to

29:53

him, you know, in your career, I bet you

29:55

had to arrest a lot of people that

29:58

you didn't want to arrest, you know, because you like

30:01

them, you were rooting for them, right? I feel

30:03

the same way when

30:05

it comes to criticism towards law

30:08

enforcement. I got an

30:10

email from a listener

30:12

who said, I guess I'll

30:15

reach out to you, Mr. Wallner, like

30:17

I'm not Mr. Wallner, call me James,

30:19

but he says, I left a tip

30:21

with Williston PD three weeks ago, you

30:23

know, after a lot of discussions

30:26

with my family, something happened in our

30:28

family 11 days before Barbara went

30:31

missing three blocks from where she went missing.

30:34

We finally decided, you know, we're gonna leave

30:36

this tip and it took a lot of

30:38

courage and I have not heard a

30:41

single word after leaving a voicemail and

30:44

sending an email. So

30:46

my point with my friend is

30:48

a cop who had to arrest people that he didn't

30:50

want to arrest. This is something I don't wanna hear.

30:53

I don't wanna have to tell people that

30:55

this guy didn't get, I don't

30:58

want to tell this, but then

31:00

I'm in this situation where, well,

31:02

I have to, it's been

31:04

three weeks. He's not even

31:06

got a confirmation that they got his

31:08

email. So I put it on the podcast, called

31:11

up the head of investigations there,

31:13

got a comment from him, he says, that's not

31:15

acceptable. And then he got a response within five

31:17

hours. But

31:20

I don't enjoy it. I don't want to

31:23

tell that story. I wanna find out what happened to Barbara.

31:25

But I guess the case is that you

31:27

have to do something like that because it's

31:29

inevitable when you're looking at something

31:32

that's been unsolved for so long. The

31:35

only way to get to these answers would be through

31:38

something that you don't really enjoy doing, I

31:40

suppose. Yeah, I mean,

31:42

it's part of the story. I can't

31:45

just ignore it because people are uncomfortable

31:47

with people criticizing law enforcement. I mean,

31:49

that can't be the way our society

31:51

works. And, you know,

31:53

I listened also to your justice

31:55

for Jacob with Eric Carter-Landine, true

31:57

consequences. He also talked about that.

32:01

when they did that 10 days for Jacob, I

32:03

think it was called, and campaign. And

32:06

he was also, didn't

32:08

enjoy doing that, but he had not heard

32:11

anything for so many months. It

32:13

wasn't something he did

32:16

to criticize them. It's just

32:18

he's trying to get a response and it

32:21

worked, right? Tell us about the

32:24

state of the case, I guess.

32:26

Has Barbara been legally declared deceased?

32:28

Yes, she was in 1998. And

32:33

my feeling on that is that her mother was

32:35

getting close to the end of her life. She

32:38

died in 2004. Her

32:40

son, Barbara's older brother Frank died in

32:42

1998. Her

32:45

brother Frank is also a person of

32:47

interest, according to Wilson PD. They

32:49

told us that. And so just

32:52

before he died, Louise

32:56

Cotton, Barbara's mother, had her

32:58

daughter legally declared deceased. And

33:01

interestingly, there's a headstone in North Dakota

33:03

where Frank is buried. It's a double

33:05

headstone and it has Frank's name on

33:07

one side and Barbara's on the other.

33:09

And it just says missing

33:12

at the bottom. So it's a little interesting

33:15

or whatever word you would use that

33:18

she's, well, she's not buried there. It's just

33:21

a name on a headstone next

33:23

to her brother who Wilson PD

33:26

say is a person of interest also. Was

33:29

he at the party that night? Not to

33:31

my knowledge, no. But Stacey Werder, I believe,

33:33

was. And the state of the case, I

33:35

guess, is they say it's

33:37

open and ongoing. Have you guys

33:39

had any experience with

33:42

open ongoing cases where the victim is

33:44

legally declared deceased? And has it affected

33:46

the open records laws in any way

33:48

that you know of? I think it's

33:51

supposed to get you

33:53

additional files and paperwork or

33:55

access to those investigatory

33:59

files. But no, I don't think for

34:02

experience we've ever had that situation.

34:04

Yeah, it makes for an interesting

34:06

discussion because I'm in

34:08

contact with other people who a

34:11

son of a missing man here in North

34:13

Dakota, he told me that law

34:16

enforcement told him if they ever had

34:18

him legally, his father legally declared legally

34:20

deceased, that they would have to shut

34:22

down the investigation. But Wilson PD has

34:25

said they will never shut down this

34:27

investigation. And another thing I'll

34:29

throw out there is that in

34:31

my interview with Wilson PD, she

34:33

did tell us that the

34:36

record keeping, the documents are

34:38

really sketchy until

34:40

about 1985, four years

34:42

after Barbara goes missing. And

34:45

I've been assuming it's, you know, sloppy

34:49

work, things were not documented enough. And

34:51

we'll be right back after a quick

34:54

word from our sponsors. The

34:57

holidays start here at Kroger with a

34:59

variety of options to celebrate traditions old

35:02

and new. You could do

35:04

a classic herb roasted turkey or spice it up

35:06

and make turkey tacos. Serve up

35:08

a go-to shrimp cocktail or use

35:10

Simple Truth Wild Caught Shrimp for

35:12

your first Cajun risotto. Make

35:14

creamy mac and cheese or a spinach

35:17

artichoke fondue from our selection of Murray's

35:19

cheese. No matter how you shop, Kroger

35:21

has all the freshest ingredients to embrace

35:23

all your holiday traditions. Kroger. This

35:28

is Andrew Fitzgerald from the Everytown podcast

35:30

and every single week over there we

35:33

dive into insane and mysterious true

35:35

crime stories. Most of which

35:37

you've never even heard of. I'm

35:40

a true crime fan myself. And

35:42

this is the type of podcast I'd love to listen

35:44

to one that gives you all

35:47

the details without any fluff and fillers. So

35:50

go check out the Everytown podcast because

35:52

every time no matter how nice it

35:54

may seem There's a dark sign I'm

36:03

Morgan Rector, host of the

36:05

Human Monsters True Crime Podcast.

36:07

Do you find life boring within the comfort

36:09

zone? Then this is the right show

36:11

for you. This show does

36:13

not spare the graphic details. It

36:16

will test your endurance. Consider

36:20

some testimonials from my listeners. Stephanie

36:22

Jordan said, some episodes even for me

36:25

I had to take a mental health

36:27

break from, only to crave

36:29

more of it. Karen

36:31

Erdmann says, it's like a train wreck

36:33

you can't turn away from. Anna

36:37

Scholz, I was looking over my

36:39

shoulder because I felt like I should have been

36:41

or was going to be arrested

36:44

for even listening. The

36:47

offenders profiled in human monsters are

36:49

among the most inhumane. These

36:52

people specialize in the unthinkable.

36:55

Human monsters, available wherever

36:57

you get your podcasts. Thanks

37:01

to our sponsors and now we're back to the program.

37:05

When you say that the record keeping

37:07

was sketchy, are you talking about,

37:10

like you said, missing documents or is it

37:12

a combination of missing documents

37:14

and just poorly

37:16

drafted reports of the incident? I

37:19

can't say with any confidence

37:22

because I've not seen the

37:24

file myself, but I do know that Wilson PD

37:26

has told me in the interview that they have

37:29

just boxes and boxes and boxes

37:31

of information and as

37:33

some sort of indication what a big

37:37

investigation was done. And

37:39

yet none of that stuff contains the stuff

37:41

we really need, like the interview

37:43

with Stacey Werder if it ever happened

37:45

or this unnamed friend who saw her

37:47

at a party. So

37:50

it was kind of like they were saying at the one

37:52

hand, we've got all this stuff, but

37:55

we don't have the stuff you're asking for, but

37:57

that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It

38:00

just become kind of frustrating. And are

38:02

you still working with law enforcement? I

38:05

just sent a follow up tip to

38:07

Detective Dairy a few minutes ago. I

38:10

sent him a tip last week and

38:12

he responded right away and

38:16

he said he found it interesting. And

38:19

I just followed up with another one. I

38:22

just told my listeners in my last episode

38:26

that there's something that,

38:30

unfortunately I can't talk about. You get to this

38:32

point where, and it

38:34

must, I was so, I

38:36

told my listeners, I'm so sorry. I can't

38:39

tell you more about this. You followed along with me

38:41

all this way. And now I have this tip,

38:44

I guess, for Wilson PD. And

38:47

I just can't tell you. It's so frustrating

38:49

as a podcaster. You

38:52

feel like you're letting your audience down, right?

38:54

But I just cannot reveal. But

38:57

basically what I told them was, I don't feel like I

38:59

have the key to this story, but I

39:02

think I know where there

39:04

is, which lock they need to

39:07

unlock. If law enforcement can

39:09

find their own key or pick that lock, that's

39:11

a better way of saying it. If they can

39:13

pick that lock, we might get some answers. Are

39:15

you this close or this in

39:17

the weeds with any other disappearance

39:20

or missing person or unsolved case,

39:22

whether it's something that you've covered

39:25

or you plan on covering, or is

39:27

this about as deep as you've gotten?

39:29

This is probably the deepest I've gotten.

39:31

And in fact, my earlier seasons were

39:33

not all unsolved cases. They did a

39:35

couple of documentary style things about resolved

39:37

cases. But I

39:39

think my future is about missing persons.

39:45

Someone asked me about 12 years ago. I

39:47

was just thinking about the other day. You

39:49

get that question. If you became independently wealthy,

39:51

what would you do that whole question? And

39:53

my answer was, I think

39:56

I'd start some kind of company

39:58

or organization to help. families find

40:00

their missing family members. That was

40:02

like 12 years ago. So I guess it's always been

40:04

in here. And with this season, I honestly,

40:08

I kind of like to stick on this topic

40:11

or whatever you want to call it. Wow,

40:13

well, thank you so much for your time.

40:16

Keep up the great work and keep us

40:18

in the loop on any

40:20

case developments as the

40:23

podcast moves along. I

40:25

sure will. And I cannot thank you guys enough for

40:27

having me on. This was a big day for me.

40:29

I've told a lot of friends. You

40:32

guys have done fantastic work. And

40:34

a lot of people I know

40:36

listen to you. I remember listening to you guys. Started

40:39

on an airplane about four years ago and

40:43

got hooked right away. So congrats to all

40:45

your great work. Well,

40:47

thank you so much. And same

40:49

to you to echo what Tim was saying.

40:53

This isn't like you're seeing right

40:55

now. Like it's not easy. It's

40:58

not a lot of money involved in it.

41:00

And it's a 100% passion. And

41:04

when you speak about this, you can hear it. And

41:06

if there's anything else that we can do for

41:08

you, any way we can, other than spreading the

41:11

word with this episode and with

41:13

Barbara's story, let us know. The

41:17

work that you have right now, there's a

41:19

petition out there, right? To

41:21

sign. If you want

41:23

to give that information, that would be great. We

41:27

went with change.org. First

41:29

time I did a change.org petition. And

41:31

I thought

41:34

we're up in rural North Dakota. I

41:36

have a good following, but I

41:39

thought if we get a thousand signatures, that'll be cool. And

41:41

then we got two and we're at 3,200 now. So,

41:45

and the policy

41:48

makers or change makers is

41:50

the chief of

41:53

police of Williston. And one

41:55

of the city council members. So they get emails, you

41:57

know, when we hit 3000, I'm

41:59

sure they. got an email again like, hey,

42:01

we're still here. And

42:03

it can be found at change.org

42:06

simply by searching Barbara Curtin. Effective

42:30

Military or Veteran planning your next career move? Start

42:34

at Columbus State Community College. Columbus

42:36

State equips you with the skills to launch

42:38

a high-tech career in Columbus's fastest growing

42:41

fields, including cybersecurity, software development,

42:44

and more. That's why employers fueling

42:46

Central Ohio's tech boom hire

42:49

our graduates. Plus, our Veteran

42:51

Services Team will help you maximize your

42:53

benefits and connect to a supportive campus

42:55

community. Take the full course. Learn more

42:57

at vets.gov. Take the

43:00

first step. Apply at cscc.edu.

43:03

Slash IT. Lucky

43:06

Land Casino, asking people what's the

43:08

weirdest place you've gotten lucky? Lucky?

43:11

In line at the deli, I guess? Ah,

43:13

in my dentist's office. More than once, actually.

43:15

Do I have to say? Yes, you do.

43:18

In the car, before my kids' PTA

43:20

meeting. Really? Yes! Excuse me, what's the

43:22

weirdest place you've gotten lucky? I

43:24

never win Intel. Well, there you

43:27

have it. You could get lucky anywhere

43:29

playing at luckylandslots.com. Play for free right

43:31

now. Are you feeling lucky? No purchase necessary. Fully

43:33

reprohibited by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply.

43:35

See website for details. Hello, it is Ryan. And I was

43:37

on a flight the other day playing one of

43:39

my favorite social spin slot games on chumbacasino.com. I

43:41

looked over at the person sitting next to me.

43:43

And you know what they were doing? They were

43:45

also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence? I think not. Everybody's

43:47

loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino is home

43:49

to hundreds of casino style games that you

43:52

can play for free anytime, anywhere, even

43:54

at 30,000 feet. So

43:56

sign up now at chumbacasino.com to claim

43:58

your free welcome bonus. chumbacasino.com

44:00

and live the Chumba life. No

44:02

purchase necessary. Immediately report for repair if I lost any

44:04

terms and conditions. 18 plus. We're With

44:07

Lucky Land Sluts, you can get lucky

44:09

just about anywhere. This

44:11

is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway

44:14

and the weather's fine, but we're just gonna

44:16

circle up here a while and get lucky.

44:18

No, nothing like that. It's just these cash

44:20

prizes add up quick. So I suggest you sit

44:22

back, keep your tray table upright, And

44:24

start getting lucky. Play

44:26

for free at luckylandslots.com. Are

44:28

you feeling lucky? No purchase

44:31

necessary. void where prohibited by law

44:33

18 plus terms and conditions apply.

44:35

See website for. This

44:37

is a Glassbox Media Podcast.