0:03

You're listening to a Podglamorat

0:05

original. Hey

0:11

everyone, my name is Jeff Umbro. I

0:13

am the executive producer of this podcast,

0:15

Missing Pages. Thank you for listening. We

0:17

couldn't do this without you and we

0:20

really appreciate you all being here. I

0:22

also host a podcast called Podcast Perspectives.

0:24

I know it's a little on the

0:26

nose. That podcast is also produced by

0:28

the Podglamorat, the company that makes this

0:31

show. If you are interested in learning

0:33

more about podcasting or the audiobook industry,

0:35

I encourage you to go and check

0:37

out Podcast Perspectives wherever you get your

0:39

podcasts. We are actually going to

0:42

share an episode of that show with you

0:44

all today. It is about the audiobook industry,

0:46

the state of that industry. It is

0:49

one of the bright spots in the entire

0:51

publishing industry. Year over year, all of the

0:53

publishers who are putting out audiobooks are making

0:55

more money than the year before. That's cool.

0:57

We like that for publishers. So

0:59

I hope that you all come and join us. And

1:02

in the meantime, enjoy this episode all about audiobooks.

1:11

This is Podcast Perspectives, a show about

1:14

the latest news in the podcast industry

1:16

and the people behind it. I'm your

1:18

host, Jeff Umbro, founder and CEO of

1:20

the Podglamorat. Today we are doing something

1:22

different on the show and talking about

1:24

audiobooks. I started my career as a

1:26

book publicist, so I'm personally interested in

1:28

the topic. But it's also a subject

1:30

which I think podcast folks should pay

1:32

more attention to. For one, in 2023,

1:34

the audiobook industry is more

1:36

than double the size of the podcast industry.

1:38

There's a lot that podcasters can learn from

1:41

that growth. But also the two

1:43

industries are intersecting and collaborating with

1:45

one another in a lot of

1:47

interesting ways between podcast agencies producing

1:49

audiobooks, podcast platforms hosting audiobooks, and

1:51

interesting distribution plays on both sides.

1:53

To break this all down, I

1:56

have a great panel today featuring

1:58

Michelle Cobb and Sean McManus. Both

2:00

audio book publishers on the board

2:02

of.e O Publishers Association and Land

2:04

and Beach in independent author who's

2:06

published multiple audio books so that

2:08

let's get to it. So.

2:14

Everyone welcome to the show!

2:16

Just to make this a

2:18

little bit easier would everyone

2:20

introduce themselves Michelle which like

2:22

to begin to I'm. Michelle

2:24

Cobb, an Executive Director of the

2:27

Audio Publishers Association hand I'm the

2:29

publisher of Audio File Magazine that

2:32

reviews audiobooks. And you have a podcast called

2:34

Behind the Mike. That's right. For a year

2:36

behind my which audio file put an end

2:38

of a small audio publisher. Myself. Cool

2:40

and shot. Would you like your next. Yeah.

2:42

Thank you! My name Sean Mcmanus I'm

2:45

the President of Dreamscape Media. An

2:47

independent audio book publisher. I'm also the

2:49

president of the Or your Publisher Association

2:52

and were closely with Michelle and that

2:54

function but I have are close to

2:56

fifteen years and audio book field with.

2:59

Publishers. From Harper Collins

3:01

and Scholastic. As. Well as

3:03

distributors such as Audible Spotlight. And.

3:05

Landed. I'm land and beach

3:08

and I am an author of

3:10

eight novels. And the directors

3:12

who perform my novels are Hall

3:14

of fame narrator Scott Brick. An.

3:17

Award winning narrator says only stream

3:19

and. So. It The reason

3:21

that we have gathered you all here

3:23

today is to talk about the parallels

3:25

of the audio book industry and the

3:27

podcast industry. He feels really natural to

3:30

have a conversation about audio books within

3:32

the context of podcast and on demand

3:34

audio. But. That really wasn't

3:36

necessarily the case, even a few years

3:38

ago. So. First off, I

3:40

want to ask you guys if if

3:42

you all think that right now is

3:44

a pivotal moment in the audio book

3:47

industry. Yes, I. Think overall

3:49

audio books you know to your

3:51

point, just were primarily a nice

3:53

format, even three or four years

3:55

ago. And now it's

3:58

really transformed into more. That

4:00

form. And I think that's anchored

4:02

in business model and the players coming to the

4:04

space which I know right to talk about. When.

4:07

I think that is the pivotal point.

4:09

You know these new distributors, these new

4:11

business models and I are now taking

4:13

hold. To. Bring this from a nice

4:15

format really to amass. Format is kind of where

4:17

we are to the. Yeah. I think

4:20

that that's what I've been seeing, But I

4:22

also I'm coming at this from somebody who

4:24

is more or less a complete outsider to

4:26

the space. So. Audio

4:28

Books is as far as I'm

4:30

aware, are a five billion dollar

4:32

annual industry. Today Podcasting is just

4:34

about to cross over into two

4:36

billion. Why? Why's the news always

4:38

about the on the podcast? Had

4:40

to say. Good question. I

4:43

think we've decided that people think our

4:45

podcasts are cooler than audiobooks. The we

4:47

disagree, but I think you know it's

4:49

it. Podcasting is fairly new, audio books

4:51

and the other publishers. The season was.

4:54

Formed. In Nineteen Eighty Six. So.

4:56

We've actually been around, we've been part

4:58

of the landscape and it's than something

5:01

that people have been exposed to for

5:03

a long time. I would. Also, add

5:05

that everyone's heart of our podcast to

5:08

their free. They're amazing. They're great so

5:10

thick audiobooks are much better. Just sorry

5:12

but in Sweden. Over. Sixty

5:14

percent of all units consumed in the

5:17

books face in the publishing space or

5:19

audiobooks. Because. They embrace streaming,

5:21

they embrace different business models and

5:23

the larger publishers embraced as well.

5:26

So. I think. I. Says English language

5:28

speaking territories in the you're specifically for

5:30

on that road and is actually going

5:33

to make audio books a primary format

5:35

in the long run. Michelle I

5:37

believe you've mentioned to me before that

5:39

there are four major a business models

5:42

surrounding the audio book industry. Would.

5:44

You walk us through those. Swear. The

5:46

the model that the Us market was

5:48

built on and retail is called the

5:50

credit subscription model, so that's where you're

5:52

buying. You know one book a months

5:54

on credit, you pave generally in the

5:56

Sistine dollar range and you can pick

5:59

out whatever you. Check out Assassin

6:01

Incentivize is people to choose a

6:03

long titles and of state fifteen

6:05

dollars my will get your thirty

6:07

hours were then you've got your

6:10

very standard all a current models

6:12

by one title whatever that publishers

6:14

charging for that and you you

6:16

pay that new kind of own

6:19

that title. Then there's the subscription

6:21

model which exists in either an

6:23

unlimited were limited way where you're

6:25

essential a paying on a monthly

6:27

see to access a body of

6:30

contents. And then I'm also

6:32

seeing this hybrid subscription model which

6:34

is you pay for credit. And

6:37

then you also get access

6:39

to a library filled with

6:41

with content. Also. It strikes

6:43

me that there's have bunch of different business

6:45

models out there that people are testing. You're

6:48

the one that's been around the longest that

6:50

most people as them to this are probably

6:52

aware of. His is the credit system says

6:54

that Audible uses. The biggest one that is

6:56

in the news lately is probably the A

6:59

Subscription model v. a Spot of I Can

7:01

you walk us through like what that looks

7:03

like Swear. So. Spot as I is

7:05

actually launched a program in which

7:07

if you are premiums subscriber mean

7:10

you pay a certain amount per

7:12

month access podcast and music. You

7:14

can also access audio books and

7:16

you can listen to up to

7:18

fifteen hours per month as part

7:20

of your subscriptions. And then if

7:23

you wanted listen to like. Fifteen.

7:25

To twenty hours. Adidas have to pay

7:27

extra. That's correct. Teach you. Can pay

7:29

a little more and get a little more

7:31

success. And then there are other audio books

7:33

that are available in Spotify that you can

7:36

not get through that model. You can buy

7:38

them all a cart, he just has to

7:40

leave the app, go to their website, acquire

7:43

it, and then you can Low to death.

7:45

And because we like simple things, spot a

7:47

fight is not actually letting people buy it

7:50

on their app. They have to go to

7:52

his have her website because of an entirely

7:54

separate issue that we will get into today

7:56

with just. Apple business models in

7:59

their apps are. In. And speaking of

8:01

apple, Apple bucks A and I believe Google

8:03

Books and several others just operate on my

8:05

God yeah I'll a card system. You pay

8:07

for what you want. Solicit. A

8:09

dominant models and those that I believe those

8:12

four players probably make up like ninety something

8:14

percent of the market you'd. Actually, be surprised.

8:16

I remember making a slide years ago

8:18

that will had all the players and

8:20

it was like overdrive, inaudible and then.

8:23

Five years ago I started having forty

8:25

or. Assist East defense retailers on

8:28

the slide. So as the market

8:30

grows, the bigger players actually technically

8:32

lose market share because there's so

8:35

many players in the market. But.

8:37

They continue to to grow or I

8:39

like that this could be shot or

8:41

michelle. Could. You walk us through with

8:44

the audio book space. looked like over the

8:46

last ten years what happened that make help

8:48

to transform into what we see today. Minded.

8:51

See a couple of things. First

8:53

of all that the smartphones has

8:55

been a huge boon for audio

8:57

books because enough you're old enough

8:59

to remember carrying them on cassettes

9:02

were on Cd. That was a

9:04

lot to hold on to you,

9:06

but was really that smartphone were?

9:08

suddenly You're carrying a computer with

9:10

a lot of potential titles on

9:12

it. That helps people discover audiobooks

9:14

and the industry over the past

9:17

eleven years has seen double digit

9:19

growth in revenue each year. And

9:21

I really do tai that back to. The

9:24

smartphone and to publishers producing much

9:26

more. so twenty years ago has

9:28

a group of publishers. We probably

9:31

published between two and three thousand

9:33

titles a year. You know now

9:35

through digital production and digital delivery,

9:38

each publisher in their own right

9:40

has doubled and sometimes tripled their

9:42

list really in the past decade

9:45

and that amount of content being

9:47

available has helped drive the format.

9:49

And then you have people like

9:52

Land to him who are. You

9:54

know, independent authors who are doing

9:56

their own publishing of books and

9:59

audio books? And we're starting to. See

10:01

that that has a huge impact.

10:03

So availability has been at a

10:05

key driver of grow. And. To

10:07

add onto to Michelle's point, yeah, especially in

10:09

the five last five or ten years, your

10:12

audible was a really big play. And the

10:14

industry and retail. They. Were the go

10:16

to for digital on. They were the first ones out

10:18

of the gay. I'm really their

10:20

only competition word the public libraries

10:22

and library systems. And so where

10:25

we are now in mean we

10:27

have companies like Scribd ensure an

10:29

Apple has grown significantly. Are your

10:31

books or com. Gone. Are

10:33

the days of just one you know

10:36

retail player being the the go to

10:38

stop for audio books and now we

10:40

have a really healthy ecosystem Fraud? or

10:43

for audiobooks? Lead.

10:53

And I wanted to also ask you

10:56

how would you have seen this growth

10:58

in the industry as somebody who is

11:00

actually writing these books When was the

11:03

first audio book they you road published?

11:05

My first audio book gov published in

11:07

Twenty Twenty And then I started working

11:10

with Scott Raped. In.

11:12

The summer of two thousand

11:14

and Nineteen and I think

11:16

my perspective comes from seeing

11:18

the gross in audio books

11:20

and seeing hardcover sales are

11:22

down. paperback sales are down,

11:24

printing costs are up, and

11:27

so. If. You wanna go and

11:29

publish your book just because you want some

11:31

family members to read it and put it

11:33

under the Christmas tree or whatnot. It's pretty

11:35

inexpensive, but if you're looking to make a

11:37

career of it, but I think it's the

11:39

three legs of his stool. or do you

11:41

have to have a book, you have to

11:43

have some kind of physical copy, and you'd

11:45

have to have audio books. And if you

11:47

don't have those three, if you're not putting

11:49

out a tremendous amount of material which is

11:52

beyond the scope of this podcast, of course,

11:54

then you have to think about the quality

11:56

that you want to have with fewer books.

11:58

And it's essential. Audio

12:00

books as one of the lake so that stool.

12:03

Which. Puts an onus on trying to

12:05

get really good narrators to separate yourself

12:07

and bring your. Work. But that

12:09

is an easy either. Yeah, on the podcast

12:11

side is very similar and and when I

12:14

was about publicist we used have this quote

12:16

Word yet on this was something like three

12:18

hundred bucks every day are being published and

12:20

that's your competition. We were probably drastically under

12:22

estimating how many boats are being published to

12:24

be honest. So. What we've established so

12:26

far is that there are a few

12:29

different business bottles through a lot of

12:31

the big tech players as well as

12:33

some of the more legacy audio me

12:35

and distribution platforms. They're more audio books

12:37

than ever that are being produced and

12:39

published because of accessibility real with smartphones

12:41

with the tools to actually record the

12:43

stuff. How are publishers

12:45

and authors being paid?

12:48

Through. All of these disparate systems.

12:50

Hussein? would you like to take

12:52

that want? Yeah, that's a tough

12:54

question because every single business models

12:56

difference between publisher and author. It

12:58

really is still anchored in the

13:00

traditional publishing mom and so. Whatever.

13:02

The publisher nets a percentage of

13:05

that then is given down to

13:07

the author from there. Now.

13:10

In and sense of one copy one

13:12

user. For libraries you're selling a an

13:14

audio book to a library system for

13:16

many opportunities to listen to that title.

13:18

So usually the list price much greater

13:21

so the not as much greater and

13:23

then saw. First. Such as

13:25

Audible. it's more of a you know, not

13:27

similar it all, a cart but a smaller

13:29

mouth that is that added by the publisher

13:32

and and pets are. So without

13:34

going to every single business model

13:36

and everything. overall it's more of

13:38

a traditional publishing space where as

13:40

the publisher or the author who

13:43

is self published just receives a

13:45

net amount from that's distribution platform.

13:47

So. It authors/publishers depending on

13:49

the distribution deal, will receive

13:52

some kind of. Percentage.

13:54

On whatever sales occur. How

13:56

dominant is the traditional publishing

13:58

industry? He oh the big

14:00

five publishers. Within. This market

14:03

as opposed to a meal independent publishers

14:05

are people who are trying to move

14:07

into the space kind of on around.

14:10

It's really interesting to compare he books

14:12

and audiobooks when you look at the

14:14

how the units consumed for he books

14:17

say Kindle unlimited or Amazon. The.

14:19

Actual the ebook percentage of self

14:21

published authors and non big five

14:24

and non traditional publishing. Is.

14:26

Really, really high. It's over fifty percent.

14:29

On the audio book side, it's much,

14:31

much smaller. And. That's because of

14:33

all the hurdles that historically been put

14:35

in front of self published authors as

14:37

well as independent audio book publishers. Now.

14:39

Or in a world where. You. Know I

14:41

say Two years ago, the self posts

14:43

authors were about ten to twelve percent,

14:46

and the independence were ten or twelve

14:48

percent of all valuable consumption. But. Now

14:50

that numbers actually increasing very quickly. Because.

14:53

Those ie. books that you

14:55

extraordinarily well. As great as

14:57

Ceo Gray Matter that a Great

14:59

cover art, great narrator such as

15:01

Scott Brick and others. They're.

15:03

Actually Exploding. And. So.

15:06

What? People are talking about as

15:08

much in the trades for publishing.

15:11

Is. The fact that this self

15:13

publishing and these independence or actually

15:15

growing leaps and bounds because of

15:17

the plethora and the quality of

15:19

cancer out there. I. Think that's

15:22

what new business models can bring to the front.

15:24

Such a spot of I and others. That.

15:26

You know, the more traditional book distributors

15:29

as As Audible and others haven't been

15:31

able to a really push. I think

15:33

we're gonna see that self publishing and

15:35

those independent publisher such as Myself and

15:38

Land and I'll Author Front and Michelle's

15:40

publishing company really come into fruition. One.

15:43

Man. And Will do you think be published?

15:45

Rivers Audio Book and Twenty Twenty Sounds Like that

15:47

is a big part of your business as

15:49

a writer. Have you seen more opportunity in the

15:51

space? in the last couple years? When.

15:53

You think about putting your work out

15:56

and audio books. I think it always

15:58

comes down to. What? Gonna

16:00

make you the most competitive.

16:03

As. More and more narrators who

16:05

worked with traditional publishers are being

16:07

open to working with independent authors.

16:10

Those lines or gonna get blurred.

16:12

I seen more and more indies

16:14

start to go with audiobook narrators

16:17

and try to get top flight

16:19

audiobook narrators to compete. And

16:21

as far as the payment goes

16:23

is pretty streamlined. You know I

16:25

don't have to wait for any

16:28

royalties for months while my agent

16:30

and publisher if I had them

16:32

would be fighting. It goes directly

16:34

into my office and allows me

16:36

to focus on putting out quality

16:38

content rather than trying to go

16:40

through the tentacles of bureaucracy. So.

16:42

There. Is an advantage. To put it is

16:44

a lot more worked up front you know

16:47

my wife and I are a mighty team

16:49

of to see is able to help me

16:51

upload those files and work out that when

16:53

we had to submit him to distributors that

16:55

are going to get him out to retailers

16:57

so. In. One way technology give

17:00

us and elsewhere weights in. take

17:02

it away if you don't know

17:04

how to navigate that and that's

17:06

probably something that would make people

17:08

shy away. From. Independent publishing is

17:10

that it is a lot more work

17:12

in a P A got a A

17:14

Publishers Association data. One. Of the

17:16

key items I forget where ranks one two

17:18

or three. Of. Actually wanting to

17:20

consume an audiobook. Outside of the

17:22

actual the title is the narrator. So.

17:25

People consumers looking for that married are

17:27

looking for that name that they want

17:29

to listen to. His. Okay and

17:31

continues to be in both the retail

17:33

segment and the library thing. That.

17:35

Brings me to one of the questions that

17:37

I have which is more of a fun

17:40

one for made asked. There's a Star Wars

17:42

audio book that I've listened to the has

17:44

like all the lightsaber sounds and not John

17:46

Williams score but might as well a ban

17:49

and there is there George Saunders Lincoln in

17:51

the Bardo from a few years back which

17:53

had something like two hundred voices and at

17:55

outside of the narrator like how much does

17:58

the production play a part in. People

18:00

consume these things and enjoy them. I think that's

18:02

a good question. Do for. A. Long time. There's

18:05

kind of into camps of listeners,

18:07

people that are listening and are

18:09

used to the one narrator reading

18:11

all the parts and you're sort

18:13

of in that mind frame and

18:15

then they're super that listen to

18:17

more of the audio drama with

18:19

the sound effects. Me as a

18:21

console past and never the twain

18:23

shall meet his what I said

18:25

sound advice. You know anecdotal discussions

18:27

with people but I think said

18:29

that is changing More books are

18:31

being published with full cast and

18:33

sound. Effects Music More books are

18:35

being published with three perspectives of

18:37

three different narrators. We're starting to

18:40

see that in that piece of

18:42

the performances being honored in a

18:44

different way. And I think part

18:46

of that is because people are

18:48

listening to podcasts that are doing

18:50

these things. So publishers are being

18:52

more creative and consumers are being

18:54

more open to the idea of

18:56

exploring different types of listening. Job

18:59

I'd say to there's another distinction and

19:01

as to send a performer themselves which

19:03

is There are some boys artists who

19:06

do voices and two different voices for

19:08

different characters and there are others who

19:10

do not. And. Play more the

19:12

attitude and go through subtlety. so even

19:14

within a singular narrator their choices the

19:17

differentiate between each other's soaks. That's even

19:19

different than hiring a full past because

19:21

you could have one person who is

19:23

an incredible voice imitator and could come

19:26

up with different voices for characters that

19:28

would give the that you have a

19:30

bigger cast but. That's. Something else

19:32

that exists, I think in that space. especially when

19:34

you have a singular narrator. In

19:46

So funny, because all three of you are

19:48

saying things that could easily be applied to

19:50

podcasting. And I do think there

19:53

there is a big blend in these

19:55

different business bottles. It's happening right now.

19:57

Spoken. somebody recently who works it a

20:00

premium subscription podcast service. And

20:04

they're starting to print essentially gift cards

20:06

that you can buy at Target and

20:08

you scan it and you can download your audio book. There

20:11

is Pushkin who is putting out,

20:13

you know, paid audio books on

20:15

RSS feeds that you, you know,

20:17

do a premium subscription for. Substack

20:20

is kind of its own beast that

20:22

is more or less that, you know,

20:24

you can get audio versions of people's

20:26

newsletters. Same with Autumn from the New

20:28

York Times, who the New York Times

20:30

purchased about a year ago. I feel

20:32

like we are living through whatever like

20:34

phase two or phase three of the

20:36

audio book industry is where all

20:38

of this stuff is getting blended and like, you

20:40

know, people are used to audio

20:42

books and moving to podcasting and vice versa.

20:45

Do you guys want to speak to

20:47

that new business model or whatever like

20:49

this merge of formats is? And

20:52

do you think that like five years from

20:54

now we're not even gonna be talking about

20:56

audio books versus podcasts? Am I crazy? I

20:59

don't think you're crazy. I mean, you know, I,

21:02

in addition to being the executive director of

21:04

the Audio Publishers Association, I'm also the executive

21:06

director of the podcast Academy. And

21:08

I would say this issue is the

21:10

singular one I spend the most time

21:12

on because we

21:15

in the industry can't really describe the

21:17

difference except in business models. So we're

21:19

trying to figure out how

21:21

they're gonna come together and if

21:23

the consumer doesn't care, how

21:26

we are going to walk in

21:28

parallel step with each other still

21:31

creating great products, but maintaining

21:33

a way to monetize each one, maybe

21:35

in a slightly different way, or maybe

21:38

in the same way. And

21:40

I would go on overall, I

21:42

actually don't think podcasts and audio books

21:44

will merge. I think they are very

21:47

different actually. To Michelle's point, I think

21:49

how can we walk in parallel with

21:51

one another is really the

21:54

most important piece. The

21:56

fact of the matter is, and I might ruffle feathers

21:58

here, but audio books. that word

22:00

is very different than podcasts. You know,

22:02

we have been trained, you can go

22:04

different territories around the world, but in

22:07

America, we've been trained to say that podcasts

22:09

are free. In my mind, those

22:11

are free. Audiobooks actually have a

22:13

higher value just from the word

22:15

alone. Now, would a recording

22:17

a fiction podcast be just as good if

22:19

not even 10 times better than a lot

22:22

of audiobooks? Yes, they definitely

22:24

could be and they definitely are. But

22:26

I think what we're seeing now

22:28

is those longer form audiobooks or

22:31

audio programs going to the audiobook

22:33

sector, and then those podcasts

22:35

going into podcasts. I think we're actually

22:37

going to see a real separation, but

22:40

they still need to live right next to each other.

22:42

And they actually feed one another in a

22:44

lot of ways, because it's a very much

22:47

the same consumer. And I would

22:49

say the thing that I equate them

22:51

to is movies and television, right? Television

22:53

used to be free, you know, pre

22:55

cable, but movies were of that longer

22:57

format, sort of higher premium. And

22:59

I think that these formats of podcasts

23:01

and audiobooks are largely the same. Movies

23:04

and television exist together on the same

23:06

platforms, podcasts and audiobooks now

23:08

existing together on the same platforms. So

23:10

I think that there's a lot of upside for

23:12

both. And speaking of these different

23:15

business models, what do you think,

23:17

Landon, about the idea of putting

23:19

advertisements in audiobooks? So putting ad

23:21

markers at chapters, etc. Been

23:23

some discussion of that with some of the platforms. I

23:26

think what I would say in going with

23:28

what Michelle was alluding to there is that

23:30

when you had hardcover paperback books, and you

23:32

purchased them, or you got them from the

23:35

library, or you went to the theater, what

23:37

you had was uninterrupted

23:40

choice to be

23:42

immersed into this content. And

23:45

I could not imagine if I

23:47

was sitting on a couch with a hardcover

23:49

book reading, and all of

23:51

a sudden a robot that was sitting next to

23:53

me reached over and closed the book and

23:56

said, let me now interrupt your

23:58

experience and take you completely. out of

24:00

that world to give you an ad

24:03

for something that you may or may not be

24:05

interested in. In television, when

24:07

you're watching sports or when we were

24:09

all growing up, you had commercials, you

24:11

had that expectation, but it just reminds

24:13

you that you're back in the real

24:16

world and you're like, I'm tired, I

24:18

just had a bad day at work. And

24:20

then television would have to leave you always on a cliffhanger

24:23

so that you'd be like, well, I wonder how Magnum PI

24:25

is going to get out of this one. And then you

24:27

get sucked back into it. But I

24:29

just think that it eliminates choice

24:31

of the consumer, involuntarily stopping

24:34

someone from being immersed in

24:36

something they paid for, I think is

24:38

a really bad idea from an artistic

24:40

standpoint. I do get the revenue streams

24:42

that can come from that, but I

24:44

really hope that that remains a distinction

24:47

between podcasts and audio books, that those

24:49

two things don't cross over my friend.

24:51

I agree with everything that you all said, and I think that we're

24:54

going to be at a point where they're

24:56

going to be two distinct industries that are

24:58

working in parallel to one another. But

25:01

I also do think that we're

25:03

continuing to see those boundaries get

25:05

absorbed into one another. You

25:07

start to see a lot of organizations talk

25:10

about putting advertisements in audio

25:12

books or taking a podcast and

25:14

making it a premium model. Apple's

25:17

been doing that for the last year or two

25:19

with their subscription models. I also wanted to spend

25:21

just a minute talking about the next

25:24

step of audio books. Historically,

25:27

and as long as I can remember up

25:29

until the last few years, Audible has been

25:31

the company that is just in

25:33

my mind the go-to organization to go and

25:35

purchase a book. Over the last few

25:38

years, that's changed. Would you like

25:40

to spend a minute talking about what

25:42

has changed in that regard and the

25:44

new platforms that are emerging? I

25:46

think there's just so many more retailers. We've

25:49

talked about Apple, we've talked about

25:51

Google, audiobooks.com, Scribd, Libro FM, Kobo,

25:54

Audiobooks Now. I mean, I can

25:56

just rattle off. There's so

25:58

many different players. There's in

26:00

the market who are contributing

26:03

to bringing listeners to the

26:05

format. So just like. You

26:07

know, with your Tv streaming service. He

26:10

my bopp around. You may do so

26:12

as well in the audio book space

26:14

now, and we know that a lot

26:16

of listeners come to the format from

26:18

libraries and do a portion of their

26:20

listening through the public library as well.

26:23

I. Go back and forth my own head and kind of think

26:25

about the idea of like. These. New retailers

26:27

are distribution platform said are starting

26:30

to market in audio books. Are

26:32

these are stealing audience share from

26:34

one another Or is the overall

26:36

pie growing significantly significantly enough to

26:38

support all of those like different

26:40

people listening? Yeah, so I mean

26:43

we can. thanks The Pandemic for

26:45

reminding people that they liked to

26:47

read and certainly that they like

26:49

to get away from screens. As

26:51

A, Those things have helped audio

26:53

books and in general Twenty years

26:55

ago, with less than a quarter

26:57

of the population had ever listen

26:59

to an audio book. This year,

27:01

the A P A measured sixty

27:04

three percent of us adults saying

27:06

that they had ever listen to

27:08

audiobooks, and that was a big

27:10

uptick from the previous. Year and

27:12

a good thing is. When. Someone

27:14

listens to an audiobook once. They

27:16

tend to return, and especially those younger

27:19

listeners so the ones that were picking

27:21

up now in their youth. they're going

27:23

to be with us for another seventy

27:25

eighty. Years. Which is great I

27:27

think to merge two two questions

27:29

around the players and Campbell's Asian.

27:31

I think every distributor or retailer

27:34

that comes or library Allah the

27:36

Comes into Space actually has it's

27:38

own audience. Picture for example, a

27:40

lower cost audiobook offering has a

27:43

much older audience. looking for you

27:45

know, deals for audio books to

27:47

Nine Nine Three Ninety Nine. You.

27:50

Brands Modify A We've already seen some

27:52

initial data a much much younger demographic

27:54

and that is what thought your publisher

27:56

association wants to see. That's what I

27:58

want to see as a. The share

28:00

of audio books? You know. I'm a

28:02

different demographic coming in. For. Thank

28:04

you all so much for joining us and will

28:07

be sure to have ya vaccine! Think.

28:14

You to Michelle, Sean and Land And

28:16

for joining us on this episode. You

28:18

can find Michelle Cobb at the Audio

28:20

Publishers Association and on behind the mike.

28:23

She wanted me to let you all

28:25

know that the audience will be announced

28:27

on March Fourth. Twenty Twenty Four, You

28:29

can find Sean Mcmanus a Dreamscape publishing.com

28:31

and you can find Land in Atlanta

28:33

and Beach bucks.com for more Park escalated

28:36

news info and takes. You can follow

28:38

me on Twitter at Jeff Homebrew. I

28:40

guess Perspectives is a production of the

28:42

Park Labyrinth. If. You looking for

28:44

out producing, distributing or monetizing your podcast?

28:46

you can find us at the Park

28:49

bomber.com shoot us an email atlas and

28:51

at the Park bomber.com or follow us

28:53

on all social pop at Or Bomber.

28:55

This episode was produced by Chris Pine

28:57

Yellow and Henry Illinois and thank you

28:59

to our marketing team. Endzone: Deutsche Madison,

29:01

Richards Morgan swerved and of Alabama and

29:04

Vanessa home and in a special thank

29:06

you to Damn Cristo. Thanks

29:08

for listening and I will catch you next week!