0:06

All right , hey guys . Frank here with

0:08

another episode of Modern Church Leader . I am

0:10

with my new

0:12

good friend from Sweden . I thought

0:15

you were going to be in America , but you're actually in Sweden

0:17

.

0:18

I'm actually in Sweden , correct ? Yes ?

0:20

Yeah , pastor Joakim , I'm not going to say your

0:22

last name because I'll probably butcher it , but

0:25

say it for us so that we get it right .

0:27

Oh well , first of all , you did really well with the first

0:29

name .

0:30

I got the first one down .

0:31

A lot of people can't even handle that . So I

0:34

always tell people , if you want to have that kind of

0:36

original pronunciation , imagine

0:38

a rapper greeting the North Korean dictator

0:40

like yo Kim Yo Kim

0:42

. That's it pretty . Or you

0:44

can just say you're welcome , I'll

0:46

. I'll accept that .

0:47

No you're very gracious , yes , on all of

0:49

us like americans that are like blowing it

0:52

completely no , no , you're doing good

0:54

.

0:54

Complicated first and last thing , so last thing is lundquist

0:57

, lundquist okay , very

0:59

cool , not too bad .

1:01

I mean , you know , trying , uh

1:03

, trying , man , it's been a blast , like we're just

1:05

getting to know each other . It was fun chatting

1:07

, kind of before we hit record . But

1:10

you are the pastor and

1:12

ambassador over a

1:14

church that is what , 900 plus

1:17

in Sweden and

1:19

all over the place growing , and

1:22

you're telling me some cool stories . So I would

1:24

love to hear , maybe you can just give our audience

1:26

a little bit about you . You know kind of your background

1:28

and your kind of coming

1:31

to faith and kind of becoming

1:33

a pastor in that journey , and

1:35

then we can get into Word of Life and how

1:38

everything's going there .

1:39

Sure . Thanks so much , frank , for having me . I'm really

1:41

honored to be here with you

1:43

. Yeah , many people don't know

1:45

Sweden a lot , but Sweden is in the northern

1:48

part of Europe and it's actually the second

1:50

most secularized nation in the world . So

1:52

only Japan has drifted

1:54

further away from the faith

1:57

and the values that it was built

1:59

upon once in a while . Now , if

2:01

you guys come to Sweden and you're

2:03

invited , just don't come in the winter because

2:06

you would die . But

2:08

if you come any other time of year

2:10

, you might well see or

2:12

take a look at Sweden like the exterior of

2:15

my nation and think this is the most Christian

2:17

nation I've ever seen , because there are churches

2:19

everywhere . Literally everywhere

2:21

, like right outside my window now

2:23

, there's a church from

2:26

the 12th century

2:28

. However , all these churches

2:30

are 12th century , 13th century , 14th

2:32

century , 15th century . But

2:34

what's happened in the past few decades

2:37

is that Sweden has completely gone

2:39

astray spiritually and

2:42

has left Christianity behind

2:44

. It's an extremely secularized

2:46

and socialistic nation as of now

2:48

.

2:50

But you know , I know what Paul is like . What do you

2:52

think is in that

2:54

?

2:55

Because , yeah , sure , even

2:58

like from the 1915

3:00

, 1917 , there's been

3:02

a strong socialistic mindset and the Socialistic

3:04

Party has been ruling Sweden

3:07

for most of the time in the past 100

3:09

years . And you know , socialism

3:11

has got some good elements in

3:13

it , otherwise people obviously would not

3:15

be voting for it . But there's

3:18

so much negativity regarding faith

3:20

and God so there's

3:22

been an agenda going on for decades

3:24

to simply deleting God from

3:26

society and sadly , as of

3:28

now , we're reaping the consequences

3:31

of that . So I was

3:33

raised in the Lutheran Church , which

3:35

is the state church of Sweden . It's

3:38

a very liturgical

3:40

church , very , you

3:42

know , church organ , hymnals

3:45

and so on . And sadly it's

3:47

not much of a church , since

3:49

many priests nowadays in

3:52

the Lutheran church are not Christians . They don't believe

3:54

in God . It's more like an institution

3:57

, like a cultural institution

3:59

. Right , and , needless to say

4:01

, growing up in that , I didn't find anything

4:03

that attracted me . And , needless to say , growing up in

4:05

that I didn't find anything that attracted me . So I rebelled against the God

4:07

that I thought I knew or I had

4:10

gotten an impression of . And

4:17

I ran the opposite way , started to depart , started to partying

4:19

, doing drugs , drinking . But then , just a few years into my teenage ones

4:21

, a friend brought me

4:23

to a youth revival . He actually lied

4:25

to me and told me we were going to a party the

4:28

party yeah , yeah yeah , yeah , define

4:30

party , but I'll never

4:32

forget that night , frank , I came

4:34

into this room and there was worship

4:37

and I've never seen that , I've

4:39

never experienced that . There was like a hundred kids , which

4:42

to me was a crowd , and

4:44

a guy came up and started speaking

4:47

like preaching . It made sense to me for the first

4:49

time in my life , but , more

4:51

than anything , there was a presence of God and

4:54

I've never felt that before in that way . So

4:56

here I am , 17 years old

4:58

, crying my heart out , getting conviction

5:00

, knowing that I need Jesus . And

5:03

there was an altar call that night and I ran to the

5:05

front and I accepted Jesus

5:07

. And you know , for some it's like

5:09

a process that you grow into , but

5:11

for me it was a one-night revolution . I

5:14

went back home , I led like 35

5:16

of my friends to Christ in the first

5:19

year and then I just realized

5:21

that , since I'm the old and mature

5:23

one here , because I was the first

5:25

to accept Christ , I better start

5:28

to take responsibility , start

5:30

reading the Bible like crazy , so I had anything

5:32

to tell them and teach them , right , right when

5:34

Friday night came , and so on . And that

5:36

was really my first baby steps and

5:39

, by the grace of God , that was about

5:42

40 years ago now no

5:45

way , 40 years ago , come on

5:47

. You're not that old , no way . Yes

5:49

, man , I'm super old .

5:54

Oh , that's so good . So from

5:56

there , okay , you know , 40 years

5:58

ago , 17 , did

6:00

you become a pastor ? Did

6:03

you kind of like , now I want to go into full-time

6:05

ministry and that's

6:07

what it is for me ? Or did you have like

6:10

a journey you know , started working and

6:12

one day , you know , god calls

6:14

you into being a pastor later

6:16

on ?

6:18

Well , frank , when people ask me when did I receive

6:20

my calling , I normally say never

6:22

, because I've never had a moment

6:24

where I felt God say to me , you're

6:27

supposed to be a pastor and you

6:29

know here in Sweden that mindset

6:31

was not really available

6:34

, since all the churches here was the

6:37

Lutheran churches and you were a priest

6:39

, that we had nothing back

6:41

then . No church is like like

6:43

America , has tens of thousands

6:45

of . I didn't have that . I didn't understand

6:47

what it was to be a pastor . I just realized

6:50

I have this crowd of young people and

6:52

I better take some kind of responsibility

6:55

. So initially I just called myself

6:57

a leader and then I found out this

6:59

is called to be a pastor . So

7:02

I started a church I was 18

7:04

. Okay , a pastor . So I started

7:06

a church I was 18 . Not recommended , but by the grace

7:08

of God it worked out .

7:10

It worked out . So I mean

7:12

, yeah , maybe you didn't have this thinking

7:16

around like I want to go into full-time

7:18

ministry or become a pastor or whatever , but you

7:20

kind of from 17

7:22

to 18 , just kept

7:24

going . It snowballed into . You know

7:26

you're leading a bunch of your friends and young

7:29

folks and all of a sudden there's

7:31

a church .

7:32

Yeah , and I always think

7:34

to myself that we always want to see

7:36

the guidance of God , the leading

7:38

of God , through the windscreen , like we

7:40

want to see it forward , but we always tend

7:42

to see it in the rearview mirror , don't we

7:44

? We kind of look back at what has happened

7:46

and we understand , ah , that's

7:48

why and this is why and and

7:51

kind of the pieces come together , but

7:53

but not like five years from now

7:55

, in the future , but rather kind

7:57

of as we move ahead step by step with the lord

7:59

. That's my experience , I , I guess .

8:01

Yeah , no , I , a hundred percent

8:03

. I mean looking

8:06

back for me personally , right , you

8:08

know , you see , like , okay , I , I

8:10

can see maybe not perfect , you

8:12

know , I probably don't see everything , but like you

8:14

can kind of see the the path and

8:16

go like , okay , I can see how God worked through

8:19

the last 20 years and and kind

8:21

of watch it , you know , but , knowing what

8:23

the future holds , you know who knows we're , we're

8:25

doing our best to

8:27

follow his leading along the way . What's

8:29

your so okay , so that's 18 . Now

8:32

fast forward . You

8:34

know , talk to us about word of life church

8:36

. I mean , it's pretty amazing , like 900 churches

8:39

or more . You know 900

8:41

plus , and you know

8:43

how ? Yeah , I don't

8:45

know . Tell us about Word of Life and how do you lead 900

8:47

churches ? That's crazy .

8:50

It is crazy . It is crazy . And again

8:52

, you know , where sin abounded , grace would abound

8:54

. Who would have thought that from this secular

8:57

, socialistic nation in

8:59

the north of Europe , this

9:02

movement would just start and to

9:04

to uh , kind of be birthed

9:07

by the lord and and we have to pinch

9:09

ourselves constantly because this is organic

9:11

growth , right , uh , we've hardly

9:14

start one single church like

9:16

strategically and with

9:18

purpose to , hey , now let's plant

9:20

this church in that region or in that

9:22

country . We , we've just seen it take

9:24

place . Now , I'm not against strategy

9:26

or anything like that , it's just been another

9:29

route for us . Whenever

9:32

we had an opening , we saw an opportunity

9:34

, primarily in nations that

9:36

were struggling a whole lot , and

9:39

we just thought , okay , we want

9:41

to help and the best thing we could do

9:43

is share the gospel . Okay , we want to help and

9:45

the best thing we could do is share the gospel

9:48

, and then , of course , also help with food and

9:50

healthcare and social structures in nations such

9:52

as Afghanistan , iraq

9:54

, syria , north

9:57

Korea , uzbekistan

9:59

, tajikistan , india , china

10:02

. Whenever there's a complex

10:04

nation around , there's got to be a Word of Life church in

10:06

it . That's our ambition . But

10:10

it's been a rollercoaster ride of

10:13

just God working really and us

10:15

being lucky enough to watching

10:18

him work from the balcony and cheering on

10:21

whatever he's doing , but

10:23

it's been amazing . Yeah , our churches

10:25

are all east

10:27

of you . We have no churches in North or

10:29

South America , so they're

10:32

all in Europe , southeast Asia

10:34

, Central Asia

10:36

, russia , ukraine , india

10:39

, china , vietnam , kind

10:41

of yeah , that block , 13 times always . Yeah

10:43

, yeah , I mean that block 13 time zones ?

10:44

Yeah , yeah , I mean that's

10:47

incredible . Is it all like local

10:49

leadership and people

10:51

raise up in that particular area

10:53

and you guys are

10:56

somehow connected to it ? Are you sending people

10:58

out different ways ? I know you said it wasn't

11:00

totally like planned out , but how

11:02

is it ? How

11:05

is it like happening ? You know what I mean . Like

11:07

in a new country or a new place . Like how does

11:10

a word of life church show up ?

11:12

Well , one of the first things we did

11:14

as a church was we started a Bible school

11:16

. It's a one year concept

11:19

of giving young people a firm foundation

11:21

in the word of God and an experience

11:23

of the presence of God , the

11:26

Holy spirit . So what we do

11:28

is that we encourage young people to

11:30

, straight after high school , take a gap year

11:32

before uni and take that full

11:34

year Bible school . And this

11:37

is not ministry related . This is not just

11:39

for the ones who feel a calling to

11:41

go into full-time ministry . Our approach

11:43

is whatever you're going to do in life , whatever

11:46

your dreams and ambitions are , take this

11:48

first initial year for God

11:50

, get a good foundation and then go

11:52

on to be a teacher or a writer

11:54

or a journalist or a politician

11:56

or whatever . By the grace

11:59

of God , we have now graduated about 12,000

12:01

teenagers and young people

12:03

in . Sweden and

12:06

we have 14 other Bible schools

12:08

in other geographical areas

12:10

. Now , all in all , we've graduated

12:12

about 55,000 young people

12:15

from this one year . Bible

12:17

school concept and I tell you

12:19

, everything about the growth of the Word of Life

12:21

has come out of that Bible school . You

12:24

would have Bible schools in India

12:26

, in Moscow , in Russia , and

12:28

we have had it in

12:30

Syria , in Iraq , in all

12:32

these different countries . And there's

12:35

some that will just kind of go through the Bible school

12:37

and then move on to do whatever God has

12:39

called them to do . But in every group

12:42

, in every graduating class , there will be

12:44

young people with a stirred

12:47

heart for missions , for ministry

12:49

, for church , and all

12:51

of our churches have been started through them

12:53

. So basically , throughout that

12:55

year of teaching but

12:57

also fellowship and encountering

13:00

the presence of God , there's been so many

13:02

callings that are stirred in

13:04

young hearts and , as

13:07

of now , I would never put a

13:09

leader in charge of anything in word

13:11

of life that has not been through that Bible school

13:13

. Right , right , because that Bible school reflects

13:15

our DNA , uh , and reflects

13:18

everything we feel that God has spoken to us about

13:20

.

13:20

When did you start the Bible school , like , how long has it

13:22

been running ?

13:24

Oh , it was back in 1984 .

13:26

Okay , was back in 1984 , okay , so it's been going and going and

13:28

going and building and building and you said you have like

13:30

uh , 14

13:32

, 15 of those , yeah , 15 all in

13:34

all this year . Yes , that you've done , yeah , that

13:36

is incredible . Um

13:38

, and does that feed in to

13:42

the kind of missions ? Like it sounds like

13:44

kind of missions . Planting

13:46

is a is a big deal . Do

13:49

you send out kind of missionaries into different

13:51

areas that are operating in like

13:53

the missionary sense ? Or is it like planting

13:55

churches when they go out

13:57

from the Bible school ? Like what's

13:59

the loosely

14:01

planned model of how you guys are doing

14:04

?

14:04

No , that's spot on , frank . Missions

14:07

is such a great part of this Bible

14:09

school , so it's not just the theory and Bible teaching

14:11

. Throughout that year the students

14:14

are going out on mission trips several times

14:16

, and they're going out in our mission

14:18

field , so to speak . So they will visit

14:20

Word of Life in other nations . So

14:23

, even if they don't know the people

14:25

they're going to visit , it's the same heart , the

14:27

same spirit , the same basic layout

14:29

Now for us . I

14:31

understand fully and I respect that some

14:33

church planting organizations

14:36

or churches will kind of try

14:38

to replicate themselves so that the campuses

14:40

all look pretty much the same . Right

14:43

, and I fully understand that . We

14:45

could never do that , though , because

14:47

if we were , were trying to plant a Swedish-style

14:50

church in India , that would just be weird . We're

14:52

covering so many cultures and

14:54

so many different

14:57

nations

14:59

and heritages , so

15:05

instead we have a core set of values , a

15:07

core set of visions

15:10

, vision statements , faith

15:12

statements and culture statements

15:14

, and then it's all relational . So

15:17

the worship in a World of Life Church in India

15:19

and China would be completely different from

15:21

the one in Sweden , for example , but

15:24

still you feel the family vibe .

15:27

So it's a great thing to see DNA . There's

15:29

kind of a cultural similarity

15:33

amongst all of you , I would assume , even

15:35

though you might be in China or in

15:37

Russia or wherever . So it's

15:39

different . Is it local ? Do

15:42

you find that it ends up being

15:44

like local leaders planting

15:47

in those places ?

15:48

Yeah , yeah , absolutely . We send out missionaries

15:51

from Sweden , we send out

15:53

missionaries from other nations where the World of

15:55

Black Movement is strong and

15:57

we send them out to new nations to help

15:59

. However , we never allow missionaries

16:02

to stay beyond five years . That's

16:04

the maximum . So when you go

16:06

, you're aware that I got

16:08

five years now to raise up a

16:10

local leadership , because we want

16:12

the indian world of life churches to be run by

16:14

indian pastors yeah , chinese churches

16:17

to be run by chinese pastors yeah , we

16:19

will use missionaries to

16:21

go in for like five years and

16:23

then come out again . Got it , and

16:25

the great benefit has been also

16:27

with that is that , you

16:29

know , let's say that we send a young couple

16:31

as missionaries to Afghanistan . They're

16:34

going to be in there , they're going to learn everything

16:36

there is to know about pioneer missions

16:38

in rough circumstances , right . Then

16:40

they're going to come back after five years and

16:43

all of a sudden , maybe we need someone in Iraq

16:46

or in North Korea . You

16:48

know , we have the perfect couple here . They can go and they

16:50

can use their expertise elsewhere

16:52

, rather than going and staying

16:54

in the country for like 10 , 15

16:56

, 20 years , right , right .

16:58

So again I understand and respect that

17:01

there's different ways of doing this , but

17:03

yeah , this has been a great model for us , for

17:05

sure how is it , um , you

17:07

talked about sweden specifically

17:09

and just kind of like secularization

17:12

and all of that , yet word

17:14

of life sounds like it's . You know

17:16

god is doing something great . You guys

17:18

are growing , you're , you've got the bible schools

17:20

and you're planting churches and , um

17:23

, I would assume there's

17:25

a good hub in in sweden that

17:27

you know is flourishing . So

17:30

, yeah , talk to me a little bit about just

17:32

like swedish culture

17:34

and how , um

17:37

, you're seeing the church thrive

17:39

.

17:40

Uh , in in that like it just seems

17:42

like it's it's going against kind of

17:44

gravity yeah

17:47

, I've had a lot of interesting conversations

17:51

with with us colleagues about

17:53

this , yeah , and I hope this could be kind

17:55

of inspiring because

17:58

I I hear obviously

18:00

many voices being raised concerned

18:02

by the state of the us and the

18:04

direction , spiritually , of

18:06

what's going on in the States , and I

18:09

would say maybe , probably , sweden

18:12

is like 10 years ahead of

18:14

that development and

18:16

I understand the concern . I don't want

18:18

anyone to misunderstand what I'm about

18:20

to say now , because I do believe that

18:22

we should pray for godly leadership

18:25

, we should pray for godly laws , we should

18:27

be concerned about a growing secularism

18:29

. However , having

18:32

said that , secularism

18:34

also opens up a few new

18:36

doors of opportunity

18:38

, conceived ideas

18:41

about Christianity , because people

18:44

don't have an idea about Christianity

18:46

. We

18:58

don't have a problem with people with negative experiences

19:00

of Christianity because people don't have an experience of Christianity .

19:02

Really Like it went that far , it went from back

19:04

.

19:04

you know the old churches that you said People

19:07

have no idea about

19:10

who Jesus is Wow . The

19:13

average Swede has not rejected

19:15

the gospel . That is not the problem . The average

19:17

Swede has never heard the gospel , right

19:20

, especially when we speak about young people

19:22

. Right , they have absolutely no idea

19:24

. And again , I'm not saying that's ideal

19:26

, I can't even imagine that .

19:28

Like , that's such an interesting

19:30

thing , like

19:32

, yeah , I know America has changed

19:34

over time , but even you

19:36

know I'm 45 . So , like , growing up

19:38

it's like you don't not hear

19:40

the gospel like you

19:42

do . You know what I'm saying . Even if it's maybe not

19:45

like front and center , you're

19:47

going to know about church , you're going gonna know

19:49

. Somewhere along the lines that's gonna hit you . Yeah

19:52

, but out there I mean like you would gone .

19:55

It doesn't even and you say america's

19:57

changed a lot , and I believe that , but

19:59

still , when I go to shop groceries , they

20:01

still play worship music in my grocery

20:03

store and every time I come in there in

20:05

the us , I I like what is

20:07

happening , what's going on right now , because

20:17

it's so far away , I guess that whoever would run for president or governor or senator in the

20:19

US , he would be likely to claim

20:21

that he has a faith in God and Jesus

20:24

in order for him to get elected . Here

20:26

it's the other way around . If

20:29

you claim to be a Christian , you're not

20:31

going to be promoted , you're going to

20:33

be bullied , you're going to pay a price for

20:35

it , and all that is negative

20:37

in itself . However

20:40

, it also adds strength

20:43

to the conviction Right

20:46

To your decision . If somebody steps out and say I am a Christian , I believe

20:48

in Jesus , I believe in the conviction , right To your decision . If somebody steps out and says

20:50

I am a Christian , I believe in Jesus , I believe in the Bible

20:52

, that's a statement

20:54

that will cause

20:57

them some pain , right . But

20:59

that's not necessarily

21:01

negative , because a lot of Christians

21:03

seem to lack the fire of God , and maybe

21:06

that's why there's no sacrifice on the

21:08

altar Right the fire of God , and maybe

21:10

that's why there's no sacrifice on the altar

21:12

. I'm

21:16

not saying that sacrifice or pressure , or atheism or secularism are

21:18

good things in itself , but I do say that the church of God has

21:20

got in itself the capacity

21:22

to flourish in any

21:25

circumstance .

21:26

Yeah , yeah , and there's always a cost

21:28

to count . We

21:31

know that right . Like it just might be a little harder to spot

21:33

in some places and in other

21:35

places it's very obvious , like what the

21:37

what the cost is , cause it's kind of in your face

21:39

. Yeah , yeah

21:41

, very cool . So tell me about

21:43

. We were talking before the show

21:45

about just the refugee

21:48

situation that

21:50

is more recent and just you

21:52

know what God's doing through that . You know borders

21:55

and refugees and there's

21:58

a lot of stuff that you know even over here . But

22:00

I'd love to hear you know your recent

22:02

experience around . You know what God's

22:05

done in that circumstance .

22:06

Yeah , well , speaking

22:09

of problems

22:11

that can turn into possibilities . About

22:14

five , six years ago , europe , my continent

22:16

, was faced with a huge

22:18

humanitarian crisis as

22:21

hundreds of thousands of refugees

22:23

came out of the Middle East . These were the days

22:25

of the ISIS and a horrible

22:27

situation in the Middle East . So that

22:30

led families to

22:32

get in inflatable boats out

22:34

in the Mediterranean Sea that

22:37

is what separates Europe from Africa

22:39

and just head out into

22:41

nowhere , you know , just in an inflatable

22:44

boat . And again , what level of panic

22:47

would make a man bring his wife and

22:49

six kids into an inflatable boat

22:51

and go out into the ocean

22:53

? And they were heading for

22:55

Athens , greece , which is like

22:58

a southern tip of Europe , and

23:00

Europe was taken off

23:02

guard by this . All of a sudden

23:04

it was all over the news and in Sweden

23:07

we immediately realized what would happen

23:09

. A sudden it was all over the news and

23:11

in sweden we immediately realized what would happen . If these refugees came to athens , greece

23:13

, they would start to walk from the south

23:16

of europe up to sweden , which

23:18

at the time had very liberal immigration

23:21

laws . So sweden was their best

23:23

shot to kind of get into sweden

23:25

and hopefully get to stay right now

23:28

to to put this in a US perspective

23:30

, walking that amount

23:34

of miles would

23:36

be equal to walking from Dallas

23:38

, texas to Miami , florida

23:40

by foot

23:43

, carrying your babies , bringing

23:45

your small children , yeah , and

23:48

we realized within weeks they

23:50

would be here . Tens of thousands would flood

23:52

into our nation . Sweden is a small place

23:54

, only 10 million , and Sweden

23:57

panicked . Everybody freaked out

23:59

and even Christian leaders

24:01

spoke out saying , oh , the Muslims

24:04

are going to come and take us . And there

24:06

was such a level of panic rising

24:08

going to come and take us

24:10

. And there was such a level of panic rising . And at that point I remember I took my pastors aside and

24:12

we just spent one day in prayer together asking

24:15

God , how do we position ourselves

24:17

? What

24:19

was interesting was that we had had a word

24:21

from the Lord , like a prophetic word , three

24:23

months earlier saying there will be a new

24:26

wave of missions . And we have

24:28

spoken that word to the church , yeah

24:30

, and every one of us thought we're going into

24:32

a new nation somewhere . You know we are

24:34

the wave right , that's going to go into

24:36

a new nation . All of a sudden we realize this

24:39

wave is coming our way , this is

24:41

a way of coming our direction , and

24:44

I remember god spoke to us at

24:46

that day of prayer and asking I ? I remember

24:49

he asked me in my heart . He said , joachim , because

24:51

he couldn't pronounce my name Well

24:55

, do you want to build a church of faith or a church

24:57

of fear ? And

25:00

I said , lord , I want to build a

25:02

church of faith . And then he

25:04

said well , faith sees the possibility

25:06

inside the problem and faith

25:08

sees the opportunity inside the obstacle

25:11

. So we realized

25:13

okay , even though we're not , we

25:16

don't appreciate the liberal immigration

25:18

laws , we don't think it's good for our nation

25:20

, these are our laws , these people

25:22

are coming regardless , which

25:24

basically leaves us with two options Either

25:27

we could distance ourselves from

25:30

the situation and complain about it on Facebook

25:32

, or we could

25:34

choose to believe that somewhere

25:36

inside this humanitarian crisis

25:39

there might be a seed of revival . Yeah

25:41

, so we set up

25:43

a Welcome to Europe station down in Athens

25:45

, greece , and for months and months

25:48

, we just went for it , you just

25:50

went for it .

25:50

Yeah , you're just like . We got the welcome committee

25:53

coming .

25:54

Yeah , yeah , yeah , welcome committee .

25:55

at church we're doing the welcome committee to

25:57

our country .

25:59

Yeah , yeah , yeah , we're stepping straight into the situation

26:01

. We flew down for

26:03

months and months every single week a new team of young

26:05

people that would man or word of life welcome

26:07

to Europe station down in Athens in Greece

26:09

and receive the

26:12

refugees that came in . And then we had churches

26:14

on the route from Greece

26:16

and the South to Sweden and North . So

26:18

we kind of coordinated them so that the refugees

26:21

could walk from the South to the

26:23

North and then finally

26:25

, when they arrived in Sweden , we put a big

26:27

, huge banner on our church saying

26:29

Refugees Welcome . And we

26:32

started providing health care and food

26:34

and , more than anything , we told them that

26:36

God so loved the world that he gave his only son

26:38

. And I

26:40

remember the first time we threw a Welcome to

26:42

Sweden party in our church and

26:45

we prayed for 100

26:47

Muslims to come . That was like our faith

26:50

goal and we didn't get that

26:52

. We got 571

26:54

. That first night , 571

26:56

Muslims came to our church

26:58

and we shared Jesus

27:01

with them , not only the words of Jesus

27:03

, but the love of Jesus . And

27:05

they couldn't believe it . They said

27:08

how can you do this ? How can

27:10

you love us ? If it was you coming

27:12

to us , we would not receive you like this Right

27:14

, and time and time again , we

27:16

told them that the symbol of

27:19

our faith , the symbol of Christianity , is not

27:21

this , but it's two arms

27:23

stretched out to embrace

27:25

whoever wants to come . And then

27:27

, as we did , these Muslims

27:30

started having visions and dreams about

27:32

Jesus , and

27:34

Jesus would just step into their flats

27:36

, their apartments , their houses and

27:38

introduce himself , and

27:40

it was just the most incredible

27:43

outpouring of the supernatural that I've

27:45

ever seen in my life . And

27:48

long story short , frank , in

27:51

just

27:53

like I think it was three years'

27:55

time , we got to lead 900

27:57

Muslims to faith in Jesus Christ in

28:00

our church alone . So I've

28:02

got so many church members called Muhammad . Now

28:04

I

28:06

don't know what to do with them . It's just amazing . I got to know the last name .

28:08

I got to know the to do with them . It's just amazing . I got

28:10

to know the last name . I got to know the last name

28:12

.

28:12

Yes , exactly , and

28:16

inside this you know , we had to

28:18

start a new Bible school , an ex-Muslim

28:20

Bible school . We now graduated

28:22

almost 500 students and

28:25

we're now sending ex-Muslim

28:27

Arabs back

28:29

to the Middle East as missionaries

28:32

to their own people . And

28:35

to me it's just fascinating

28:38

the way God can turn the situation around

28:40

if we choose to focus

28:43

on the possibility and not

28:45

necessarily only the negative

28:47

aspects and

28:49

not necessarily only the negative aspects

28:51

.

28:51

Yeah , and

28:55

it just shows you , man , when you show God's love to people in a situation

28:57

where they don't expect it , it's

28:59

such a stark contrast to

29:02

what you guys did versus

29:05

what they like , expected , and

29:07

they're scared and they're I don't even . I

29:09

don't even know what they're feeling . I just assume

29:12

, right , you're just doing something crazy

29:15

, um , but you feel like you've

29:17

got to do it for your family and you're going somewhere

29:19

else and it's new , and you've got nothing . You

29:22

know , like I can't even imagine going through

29:24

it . But then they feel welcomed

29:26

and loved , and all

29:28

because of what Jesus has done for you guys

29:30

. Right , and you're extending that to them

29:32

.

29:35

And that whole perspective , actually , of

29:38

family and love and what

29:40

they've been through . I remember one story

29:42

, one individual story from all these thousands

29:44

of people . There were a family from Afghanistan father , mother and six children . They were

29:47

living outside of Kabul , the capital of people . There were a family from Afghanistan father , mother and

29:49

six children . They were living outside

29:51

of Kabul , the capital of Afghanistan

29:53

. One day there was a knock on their door

29:55

and as the father opened , there was a

29:57

Taliban warrior there and

29:59

he demanded the father's 12-year-old

30:02

daughter to become his wife . And

30:05

the father tried to talk

30:07

him out of it , saying she's just a

30:09

child . You know , she's my only daughter , please

30:11

don't do this . And the Taliban warrior

30:13

said I'll be back tomorrow with my army and

30:16

either I get your daughter as

30:19

my wife or I'm going to kill we're

30:21

going to kill your entire family and you . And

30:24

that night , when the family went to

30:26

bed , the father went into his office

30:29

and he rolled out his prayer mat and

30:31

he faced Mecca and he started to

30:33

desperately call upon Allah for help

30:35

. But while praying

30:37

panicked prayer , he

30:40

realized that he's been praying to Allah all

30:42

his life but he's never had a reply

30:44

. But

30:49

then , in the back of his mind . He remembered that somebody once told

30:51

him that there is a Christian God and that that Christian

30:55

God is love . So all there , in the darkness of his room , in the

30:57

middle of the night , he starts to call out oh Christian

30:59

God , oh Christian God

31:01

, if you can hear me , help

31:04

me and save my daughter , please

31:06

, please , please . And as

31:08

he prayed that , all

31:10

of a sudden the whole room started to

31:12

light up with a bright

31:15

light and there was a man standing right

31:17

in front of him shining a bright , beautiful

31:19

, warm light . And obviously

31:21

we know who that man was . But Jesus did not introduce himself by name . He said this when

31:23

you're hungry , I will give you food . But Jesus did not introduce

31:26

himself by name . He said this when

31:29

you're hungry , I will give you food . When

31:32

you're naked , I will give you clothes . When

31:35

you're hopeless , I will give you hope , and

31:37

when you're in the darkness , I will give you light

31:40

. Those four things . And

31:42

then he told the man to wake up his family and flee

31:45

to the south and

31:48

that he would watch over this family . Long story short , they end

31:50

up on one of the inflatable boats in the Mediterranean

31:52

Sea and as they approach

31:54

Athens , greece , the

31:56

first thing they see on the shore of

31:59

Athens is our Welcome to

32:02

Europe team . Young people from World of Life

32:04

, sweden , holding up four signs

32:06

. And these signs said Sweden

32:11

holding up four signs . And these signs said if you're hungry , we have food . If you're

32:13

naked , we have clothes . If you're hopeless , we have hope . And if

32:15

you're in the darkness , we have life . The

32:18

exact four statements that

32:20

Christ had introduced himself

32:22

by a few weeks earlier in

32:24

Afghanistan . And the father

32:27

realized these young people are

32:29

somehow connected to that

32:31

man that appeared and the whole family

32:33

came to the Lord . And

32:36

that 12-year-old girl is 18

32:38

now and when I think about

32:40

the life she would have had if

32:43

Jesus hadn't intervened , but

32:45

also Frank , I get the fear of God , because

32:47

Jesus completely

32:49

counted on us being there and

32:52

I'm thinking what if we hadn't ? What

32:56

if we would have stayed in Sweden and

32:59

said , no , this is a negative

33:01

situation , we don't want to be involved . Jesus

33:04

trusted us so much that

33:06

he introduced himself according

33:08

to the four signs that he hoped that

33:11

we will hold up Right To

33:14

reflect his love . That still

33:17

gives me chills , the way he trusts in

33:19

us and the way he trusts in us communicating

33:21

his heart and his love .

33:25

That's incredible and it's like

33:27

I mean , stories like that make

33:29

you emotional , right , because you're like

33:31

, yeah , god saved this family , saved

33:33

this girl from something like that

33:36

would have just been terrible , right . And

33:39

and then it shows you like I think

33:41

god's still moving in the church and

33:43

using the church all over the world , you

33:46

know , to shine his

33:48

light and love people and give people

33:50

hope in a future and , you

33:52

know , change the course of their lives

33:54

. Like

33:56

it's incredible .

33:58

And the beautiful thing of being a little part

34:01

, of that , being connected to him

34:03

by his grace only , and

34:05

even though all of our shortcomings , just

34:07

to know that he counts on us . Yeah , and

34:10

whatever small things we could do , we can

34:12

accomplish something , as long as we're

34:14

connected to him and his love and his and

34:17

his um and his heart .

34:19

Yeah yeah , yeah , that that's that's

34:21

true encouragement right

34:23

there , right , when you can see god working . Um

34:25

, okay , like

34:28

that's the good stuff . I

34:30

also want to talk to you just about like

34:33

we're a tech company . I love talking

34:36

. You're , you're in , you're not even in the U

34:38

? S , you're like you're . I mean , I know you're back and forth

34:40

in the U ? S , but you're out in a different part

34:42

of the world and church . You

34:46

know it's kind of different depending on where you're at

34:48

right . It's all the same same

34:53

message , but how it goes down can be different . So I'd love to just

34:55

hear , like how you've seen technology

34:58

kind of grow or like

35:00

the use of technology . And you

35:02

know we got post COVID and COVID was this big

35:04

deal and all that kind of stuff . But you

35:07

know how is tech being used in

35:10

the church out there and what

35:12

are you seeing kind of God do with

35:14

technology in you

35:16

know , 2024 ?

35:20

Well , frank , first of all , I guess

35:22

I should be the one to listen

35:24

to you guys , because what you're doing

35:26

is amazing and we still have so much to learn

35:29

. We've

35:36

been historically , even in modern times , we've been struggling quite a

35:38

lot with the fact that our churches are in nations that that are are so

35:40

different in regards to their technological

35:43

advancement , like we

35:45

have churches in china and

35:47

, and with them we just can't do what

35:49

we're doing now , like even doing

35:51

a Zoom , because it's going to be monitored

35:53

every single word , so we have to invent

35:55

a code language so the reports

35:58

from China will come back to us saying well

36:00

, we had 85 people

36:02

being introduced to the boss this week

36:04

, and the boss obviously means the Lord

36:06

. All these things

36:08

in North Korea , india , afghanistan

36:11

. There is such a diversity

36:14

when it comes to tech

36:16

, also even time zones

36:18

, the World of Life family spread

36:20

out over 13 time zones

36:22

, which always can be special

36:25

. I thank

36:27

God for all the development that we've had

36:30

in the past years . I

36:32

remember the first time we went into Russia

36:35

to preach the gospel

36:37

, when the wall came down and the Soviet

36:39

Union dissolved and all of a sudden

36:42

it became legal to preach

36:44

the gospel . What we did back then

36:46

was we bought 1,000

36:48

VCR players , video

36:51

cassette players , and

36:53

we sent them in all over former

36:55

Soviet Union and then we started to record

36:57

teaching on video cassette tapes

36:59

and we just distributed these

37:01

video cassette tapes because all of a sudden

37:03

now we have 1,000 VCR players and

37:05

it's going to be 50 people watching

37:07

the same one and 100 people watching

37:09

the same one . So really

37:12

our 300 churches in

37:14

Russia now are very

37:16

much down to those 1,000

37:18

VCR players . That was like

37:20

our first little tech step .

37:23

That's like simulcast church

37:25

, before simulcast existed .

37:28

I think we're good . Can I claim that yeah

37:30

?

37:30

absolutely .

37:34

But then we've seen other nations , obviously

37:36

Vietnam , for example . Through

37:39

tech and

37:41

the whole opportunities

37:43

that was brought about by Zoom and

37:45

the opportunity to have Zoom

37:47

meetings and go online

37:50

with your services , they actually expanded

37:52

during COVID . They had a 30%

37:55

increase of church plans

37:58

during COVID , wow . So

38:01

you know , obviously the world and

38:03

the body of Christ as a whole has taken a big hit

38:07

through the pandemic , but also it's

38:09

wonderful to see that there's some areas

38:11

in the world where it's actually gone the

38:13

opposite way .

38:14

Yeah , yeah , yeah , using Zoom . I

38:16

mean that sounds like a , you know

38:18

, a no brainer , especially

38:20

when it comes to like you guys

38:22

are so distributed and all over

38:25

and being able to communicate with people

38:27

on Zoom . I mean , obviously you can use the phone and whatever , but like being able to communicate

38:29

with people on zoom , I mean obviously you can use the phone and whatever , but like being able

38:31

to like do leadership , training or fellowship

38:34

or whatever , when you're talking

38:36

like the church in sweden to the church in russia

38:38

or something like that , like um

38:40

, that's an incredible kind

38:43

of advancement I mean that

38:45

that's the , the very basic element

38:47

that all everybody's using .

38:49

but for us it's been a revolution because our

38:51

reality used to be that all

38:53

these pastors throughout the world , in all

38:55

these weird countries , would come

38:58

together , like once a year , for our

39:00

main conference in Sweden in

39:02

July and you know , our main

39:04

conference is a full week simply because we

39:06

need to do so much fellowship and

39:08

so many meetings , because that's the only

39:10

time we're going to meet each other face to face

39:12

. Going from that reality of actually

39:15

meeting once a year to

39:17

see one another to

39:19

having weekly meetings with all these

39:21

groups of pastors

39:23

doing leadership training

39:25

, doing Bible school , even online

39:28

, which is our main kind of , has

39:30

been our main kind of thing from the very

39:32

beginning , but

39:34

still we're just kind of finding

39:37

out as we move ahead

39:39

and try to develop new tools

39:42

for providing teaching . I

39:44

mean the whole AI element of

39:46

translation . We're

39:49

looking into that because there are so many language

39:51

groups , like even

39:54

in my church in Sweden , frank , on a normal

39:56

Sunday we will have simultaneous

39:58

interpretation to eight languages

40:00

.

40:01

Oh wow , when we do our main

40:03

conference in the summer , we're going to be

40:05

up at about 15 to 18 languages

40:07

In the summer we're going to be up at about 15 to 18 languages

40:09

, so you'll have translators in the back on

40:12

the mics and then people with headsets

40:14

so they can hear it in their language

40:16

Is that kind of how it works .

40:18

Yeah , well , now they just need their smartphone , basically

40:20

, and their own plugs

40:23

and they can just tune into an app . But

40:25

, yes , we do have a whole line of interpreters

40:27

. We have more interpretation spaces

40:32

than the main EU offices in Brussels

40:35

. Wow , that's crazy . So

40:37

, we have a great capacity for that and

40:39

, obviously , with AI

40:41

coming in and enabling

40:43

us to record a teaching

40:45

video and then have that person

40:48

, that pastor , that teacher speak

40:50

in all these different languages

40:52

, there's going to be a huge potential .

40:54

Have you started playing around with that ? Or do you have people

40:57

investigating that

40:59

capability for you to preach a sermon

41:01

in English

41:04

or whatever language you preach it in , but then it

41:06

be translated into 10

41:08

different languages and then sent out to the churches

41:10

? Have you guys done any of that yet ?

41:12

No , we're just kind of looking into that opportunity

41:14

now yeah . But it has got Word

41:16

of Life written all over it . So

41:19

you know that element , with all yeah

41:22

, with all of our language groups and everything

41:24

, it's going to be right up our alley

41:26

for sure .

41:27

Oh man , the day you guys do

41:29

it , you got to email me and send it

41:31

to me I will .

41:32

I'm waiting for a follow-up podcast

41:34

.

41:34

I'll be happy to oh , that would be amazing because

41:37

I I have heard of people exploring it . I've

41:39

not seen anybody do

41:41

it yet . It's probably been done , but , um

41:43

, I haven't quite seen it yet . Uh , but in your guys's

41:45

context , it it's

41:48

like such a good

41:50

fit , like such a perfect , you

41:52

know , piece of , like a new piece of technology

41:55

that gives you guys a capability

41:57

that didn't exist before you know .

41:59

So that's , that's gonna be pretty cool I actually

42:01

, uh , saw it first time like a year

42:03

ago . It was this is this organization

42:05

in in austral . It was all about

42:08

online evangelism and

42:10

they invested some serious money

42:12

into this

42:15

presentation of the gospel basically

42:17

a few minutes , and there's a

42:19

narrator , a young girl , who is

42:21

telling the story , and they

42:23

actually showed me her speaking

42:26

in . I think it was five or six languages

42:28

parallel and

42:30

it was not perfect , but it it was really really close

42:32

to it . Yeah right , it's just going to be a matter of time

42:34

. Until it's , it's absolutely perfect yeah

42:37

, I can't wait to preach in farsi and arabic

42:40

and hindi , and incredible

42:43

yeah and yeah it .

42:45

The matter of time is , like , probably this

42:47

year , like it's going so fast

42:49

, it's getting better so fast

42:51

that like it's probably going to be perfect

42:54

Like in 2024 , when it comes

42:56

to like you know , so that's

42:59

pretty cool . Well , pastor , this has been awesome

43:01

. I don't want to take too much more of your time , but thank you

43:03

for coming on the show and just , you

43:05

know , sharing your story , sharing about word of life and what

43:07

you guys are doing and how God's uh , you know , sharing your

43:09

story , sharing about Word of Life and what you guys are doing and how God's , you know , working

43:11

through you guys , where can people go to connect

43:14

with you and to just kind of see more

43:16

about Word of Life ?

43:18

Yeah , please do . There's

43:21

a website called Pastor Joakim

43:23

, so my first name , j-o-a-k-i-mcom

43:26

. And then for Word

43:29

of Life , you can either google word of life sweden

43:31

, because there's only one word of life in sweden

43:33

, so please add sweden , otherwise I don't know what

43:35

kind of church you're going to be checking out or

43:38

you can use the swedish word for word

43:41

of life , which is leave it sword l-i-v-e-t-s-o-r-d

43:45

dot s-e . But I would say Google

43:48

word of life Sweden for all of us and you and

43:51

you will come to our , our English

43:53

website , and there's all kinds

43:55

of resources . There's more about our missions

43:58

projects , more about our Bible school

44:00

and and also come around

44:02

whenever you're in Europe , don't forget to

44:04

come up and visit us way up in the North

44:06

. Elsa and Anna would love to say hi

44:08

.

44:08

I'm planning a trip to Sweden . This is going to be amazing

44:11

. How about you on Instagram , any

44:13

social media ? Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah .

44:15

So again , my first name J-O-A-K-I-M

44:18

and then L for Lundqvist

44:20

, so Joakim . That's

44:23

me on Instagram .

44:24

Okay , amazing . Well , pastor , this has been great . Thank you for coming on

44:26

the show . Really appreciate

44:29

it . We'll get it out to the world and

44:31

man appreciate everyone listening today

44:33

. Definitely share

44:35

this one on the socials , give it a like on YouTube

44:37

, spread it around . Great episode

44:39

and we'll catch you guys next week on another

44:42

episode of Modern Church Leader . See ya .

44:44

Thanks so much for having me , Frank .