Blake Beus  0:00  So I don't even know what we're talking about today. You wouldn't even talk with me about it before we started. Yeah, that's

Greg Marshall  0:05  because that's because I wanted to make sure we didn't miss out on some of the Golden topics. So, today I had mentioned to you just last week, and in fact, it might already be active, because in a couple ad accounts yesterday, I saw, so Google has decided to remove on Youtube Keyword targeting, over asking me yeah, all really are content targeting. So you can't you can't do placements, keywords or topics for conversion campaigns. What's just weird? Yeah, they just removed that. So like everyone, and like, the Google ads, YouTube faces like, This is unbelievable. Like, how are you supposed to actually target if you can't target the content, you know, contextual targeting? And I thought, well, that's interesting. I wonder why they would do that. I have a couple of guesses. I mean, my guess would be probably that, if they're trying to increase revenue, and you take away like, high performing, you know, campaigns, then you have to spend more to get the same result. Right. And so that's my guess, I mean, and it's probably accurate. And so yeah, there's no incentive for, if you think about it, if you own that business, there's no incentive and having campaigns where you could get like, $2 conversions, because then you never spend more, right, you know, your budgets really low. But if you have to spend to get, you know, $100, get a conversion, then you have to keep spending over and over again. And I think that's kind of the same thing that they did with forcing Display Network ads, on the video campaigns, I think it's the same concept, like just, it's a way to get more advertising. And in addition to that, I had noticed Facebook has this new feature that says, Would you like your ads to be a multi multi advertiser channels or something like that, what that means is, if you don't uncheck that box, they'll put your ads like on Instagram next to other people's ads. So it's just like an ad feed. It's not actually a feed. So it's like you're competing against other ads, it's like a, I was thinking about it, it's like, like a swap meet. It's like, everyone's kind of selling the same thing. And you're all in the same area. So it can devalue your ad, but it can make it seem like it's being seen by a lot. And I thought this is interesting that they're making a lot of these changes. And then another change that I saw on Facebook was they changed, at least on my on all the My Accounts, which is a lot. They changed the default setting, to instead of like, especially on conversion campaigns, instead of showing costs or conversion, or leads or whatever. The default setting is reach impressions and engagements. And you actually have to like, search out how to put the conversion as the default setting to see your performance. That tells me multiple things. Either clients are starting to like fall off, because they're not seeing the conversions that they want. So it's almost like they're trying to convince you of something else. Yeah. But having that as the default. Yeah. And so yeah, so quite a few changes happening. And I know a lot of advertisers are like, What is going on? Like you're essentially taking away all targeting, but in my opinion, I think the entire time targeting is going to go away anyways. Yeah, like, if you think about it, the trend is maybe six years ago, five, six years ago, you can get ultra targeted, right. And then each year, they've removed more and more, you know, due to privacy. And really, it's just, I think it's a money grab. Yeah, but at the end of the day, you're gonna have to play by these rules anyway, so you have to get good at it. No matter what, it's not like advertising is gonna go away. You just gonna have to play by those rules and adjust. And I think I have seen quite a few comments with people online. Right, saying like, this is, you know, terrible and, and, in my opinion, it's just as far as part of the game. It's like anything else? Business changes. Yeah. And you just need to always know it's not it's not going to stay like this forever.

Blake Beus  4:22  Yeah. Oh, man. That's That's it. I mean, I have I have so many thoughts kind of surreal surrounding this, because, because I haven't, I mean, I haven't paid attention to that. And so this is kind of news to me. But it brings up a lot of a lot of things. The very, the very, very first thing is and this is where I take a step back and I look at the just kind of the industry, just the tech industry or even just like the economy as a whole because I'm, I'm a nerd in so many ways and economics isn't another way in which I nerd. I study that stuff way too much. Um, But one of the problems we have societally or economically and I'm talking kind of specifically the United States, this probably exists in other places too. But is is the way things like venture capitalists investing stock market. And these operate. So whenever I say I'm running a business, and I, I take some VC funds, how I used to work, helping businesses qualify for investor funds. So I know a bit about the it's not a ton, I did it while I was in college, but I used to work doing that. And basically how it works is we say, okay, we believe your company is worth $50 million. Yeah, even though your revenue is not there yet, and you're tight on cash. That's why you're looking for investors. And that's fine. That's like normal. But we think your business right now is worth $50 million. But we do think in the future will be worth more if you have the right money. So what we're going to do is we will give you $10 million, right now, for 1/5 of your business and you run the math, that's like it's worth 50 million we're giving, so we're giving you a $50 million valuation for $10 million. We as the as the VCs own 1/5 of the business. Yep. But because of the venture capitalists, I want to protect that investment. So the other part of the deal is, you have to have one of our board of directors or a person on our team, they need to, they need to sit on your board of directors, and help guide the company so that our investment is protected. And on the surface, that doesn't sound like too too bad of an idea. But the problem is, is that once you do that, as business, you kind of your customer is no longer the people you're trying to serve. It's the VC because you want to round two and around three and around forecasts. And so you're always trying to make those numbers look good. Same thing with the stock market. If I go public, once I go public, and my shares are being traded on the stock market, my customer is no longer the people I'm selling my product to it's the shareholders. And so I have to continuously show certain metrics. Yeah, which make my business look good on paper, but maybe alienating Yeah, your, your customer base. So we have this problem with both Facebook and Google. And basically every big company out there. I mean, you see this all the time, you have a great product, a great service that takes some VC money, and then all of a sudden, they're jacking up prices. Or they're saying, hey, buy an annual plan right now. And you can be grandfathered in this happened with a service I use recently. So they can pump their numbers, their revenue numbers really quick and show good on paper and do another round of investment. And so we have this all the time. And so companies are constantly not just sitting there saying, You know what, we're comfortably profitable. We don't need to change things, things are working. But instead they're saying, we need to show an increase in profit. And there's only two ways to do that. increase revenue, and decrease costs. And so you have these decisions that don't seem super logical. So this is one of those ways. Google and Facebook are so huge that they have so much market share. How do you increase that?

Unknown Speaker  8:12  I mean, last I looked, you gotta make more money. Yeah, last,

Blake Beus  8:17  I mean, you can't get more customers. They're so big. They have all the customers. So how do you make more revenue? If you can't get more customers? Well, I can't wait for more people to be born. I got to do it this this year. Yeah, I gotta do it this quarter investors

Greg Marshall  8:30  are waiting for their return. Yeah, the investors,

Blake Beus  8:33  they're not going to wait very long. And and so you start thinking of different ways you can do that. One great way, this is a behavioral economics thing is changing the defaults. Yeah, if I change the defaults, then more people will opt in to the thing that I want them to do. So we change the defaults. Yep. Right. And then after you do that, every everybody that's going to do that, that hasn't noticed or whatever they'll opt in. The next thing you do is maybe you make your services a bit more generic, people have to still they have to keep using them. And so you make them a little bit more generic. So you can kind of spread the revenue out on some of these channels that aren't as profitable for some people, but give more metrics. And then you start looking at different metrics. What metrics look way more impressive. CPMs cost per impression or just number of impressions. Yep. Which that one with the grouping with other advertisers? They basically every impression gets to yeah, go to to 10 different advertisers. So one set of eyeballs gives them 10 impressions to make their numbers look good. And I'm like, What the hell

Greg Marshall  9:45  yeah, that's that. So basically, and it makes sense. I mean, when you're the customer, it's easy to kind of like get upset, right? Oh, yeah. Because you're like, Well, I'm the customer. But if you were to flip the roles or Round, right? And you own Facebook and Google and you've got investors breathing down your neck, saying we need to have a profit that's bigger than last quarter, every quarter, forever. And you only have so many resources. I mean, you have to find a way to go, Well, how do I make more money? Because that's the only way to do this. And and in advertising, it's the amount of space that they force people to use. Right? And so it doesn't make any sense to have people figure out campaigns that will get them huge returns where then then they don't have to spend more, rake and just say, well, I'll just spend, you know, 10 grand this month, because I'm getting a 4x. I'll just leave it at that. Yeah, that's good enough. Yeah, it makes more sense for for you to say they have to spend 10 to get 20. Yeah, then they have to spend, because double

Blake Beus  10:53  is on their side of things. It's it's not necessarily on Facebook, in Google's best interest for you to get a 5x or a 10x return on any campaign campaign that Miles doing amazing, so good. And they shut it down. Because they're like you, it's too good. You guys are cheating. Somehow we weren't, we're not we literally weren't just perfect messaging and fit and everything, it's in their best interest for you to get a 2x campaign because that means more more revenue to spend more in Yeah, you got to spend more, but it's enough for you to keep spending Yep. And it can be wildly frustrating when this kind of stuff happens. But the reality is, is that whole system is not going to change. VCs aren't going to change the way that's happening, the stock market is not going away, right? Like none of that stuff is changing. So you just got to understand the incentives of these companies. And that makes sense why they're doing the things they're doing. And then you as an advertiser or a business, you have two choices, throw your hands up in the air and quit, go back to a nine to five, stop running your business, or adapt. And there will be people that will throw their hands up in the air and say, You know what I'm done with this. There's going to be media buyers and advertisers that will stick with it, but not adapt. And so they'll struggle and limp along. And then you'll have those that will put in the extra work, learn to adapt. And for those people, it's an opportunity.

Greg Marshall  12:24  Well, I think there'll be some big opportunities moving forward, because you can already see what this is going to do is take out people that really have no desire to do any work at all. Yeah, right and overly rely just on the machine. And I think like anytime things change, you'll see like a huge drop off. I heard a stat the other day, where they said, like, you know, we're in a recession. And they said, there was like a very huge number of real estate agents that have dropped out of the market. Because prices, you know, interest rates gone up, you know, blah, blah, blah, the same stuff that always happens every eight to 10 years, or whatever that number is. And what that basically shows you is there's probably an oversaturation, which means it was very easy. And then as soon as it gets hard, all the kind of that extra dead weight leaves, and only the people that are truly committed to kind of stick around. And it ain't easy for people to really commit to it. But they just, you just got to work your way through kind of that storm. And I think that's kind of what you know, I think there's multiple things going on with especially the ad changes, right? Recessions here, it's also fourth quarter. So they have to make their numbers, they know that average, a lot of advertisers are cutting their spend. So they have to figure out a way to get this revenue to go up. So they'll lean on pretty much the winners to keep spending more, because that's what they're gonna have to do. Right. Yeah. And I even saw some interesting, because you don't, I never thought of it this way. But I saw like, I follow a lot of YouTube creators on Twitter, just because I enjoy their content. Like I like to see what they have to say. And one of them who's kind of an industry leader, a guy that I respect, mentioned, he said, Yeah, I'm getting, he sent out a tweet, like a lot of YouTube creators have been kind of talking about how their CPMs have dropped by 30%. And that they're making less money because they're getting paid off of CPM. And I thought, that's interesting. It probably has something to do with the removal of content targeting because if you think about it, if these creators are making like, let's say one channel has a huge channel, and they have a specific audience and you're removing their nonsense people's ability to target that, then you're gonna get way less views, you're gonna get paid a lot less if it makes your channel less valuable. And so that's kind of where I think this is all going is one thing impacts the other. Yeah, so you're gonna see creators and it's always interesting to see how the businesses kind of adjust because I wonder when you're these app platforms. At some point, something's probably gotta give though, right? Like, if if you start to see that you're losing people in droves? Yeah, at some point, you've got to like, make an adjustment, because I would think the short term gain you would get from doing this long term, though, will hurt you. Right? Because eventually people will be like, well, if I can't target these channels is key. What if I can't target at all? And I have a very niche product? How will I sell that? Yeah. Using your platform? Yeah. Well,

Blake Beus  15:38  I mean, what you see is several different forms of consolidation. Right? If we, if we look back 10 years ago, this exact same kind of stuff happened with blogging, yep. Right. 10 years ago, someone could have a very comfortable business, blogging and just running Google ad, you know, AdSense, AdSense

Greg Marshall  16:02  fact, I had a client yet lived off this. Yeah, I had warned them about what you're really about to say.

Blake Beus  16:09  But the money paid per eyeball on your site will continuously go down. And that's the that's the exact same thing that will happen with YouTube creators, the money that they're making will go down. And the reason that happens is, is two different reasons. First, more advertisers are constantly hopping on board and you think, Oh, that would be great. But there's more advertiser competition there. Yep. Second, more creators are constantly hopping online. And third, people sometimes are just eventually kind of get sick of things. I, I've actually had quite a few people recently say, I am so sick of YouTube ads. Yeah, like yep, in YouTube has definitely been putting more out they have

Greg Marshall  16:55  on it. And it's significant. Now they have the two ads. And you notice I have like one hat.

Blake Beus  17:01  And then if you keep skipping, you'll get some Unskipable ones next. And that's frustrating to people. And so they'll say, You know what? Screw this. I'll go watch Netflix instead. Yep. Right. And, and so you're gonna see people doing that. So the reality is, though, is these companies are so big, that what you'll see is some consolidation, because those people are going somewhere. Yep. So they'll buy up something else. That's why that's exactly why Facebook bought Instagram. Yeah, people were more putting more time and effort into viewing Instagram than they were Facebook, or they saw that trend. Yep. So Facebook just bought. YouTube was a purchase that Google made. Yeah, Google saw a lot of people using YouTube and not reading blogs so much and stuff like that. And they could they, they were like, You know what, we're going to do this. So they bought YouTube and consolidated that, you'll, you'll see more and more of that, I think a lot of the top. So I think five years ago, the top creators on YouTube, were almost all independent creators. Now the top 20 creators on YouTube, almost every single one of them is a corporate entity, not not a not a person on the independent person or you know, a person who, whose business started on YouTube or whatever. So you'll see more and more of that kind of consolidation. But again, this is the this is the world we're living in this stuff isn't going to change.

Greg Marshall  18:29  Because you want it because you want it to.

Blake Beus  18:31  The only way this stuff would change is if we have some sort of government entity involved in saying, Alright, you guys need to do this and this and this, because of these reasons, which might happen, but we don't know. And if it does, it's going to be a very long process. And you can't, you can't wait and hope and hope that that that will change. Because it probably won't.

Greg Marshall  18:56  And I also think too, like, this is the nature of you know, because this is where I'm starting to feel old. You start seeing these cycles, and they're like, well, this happens to be you know, this has happened. I've seen this happen now like twice Yeah. Or it's like you there's a major powerhouse, the powerhouse goes away, then it's a new powerhouse. And then it always feels like that powerhouse will be there forever. But they're not. They get overtaken or something changes or they get bought out or it's just a cycle, right. And they I remember like when MySpace was came out, I thought that day was never going to end. And then Facebook came and I thought there's no way Facebook can take over and the Facebook did and now you thought there's no way anything could ever be faced with an Instagram shows up. And so this is a cycle and it's essentially like, you'll do yourself a huge favor. If you just assume that right now i will be doing this. And in the future I will be doing something else. Yeah, right because that will change and it's kind of the St. Like when you're talking about and you know, this is a marketing podcast, right? So we're talking about marketing, marketing principles stay the same always. It's just what platforms you use. Right, right. And you just got to know like platforms are always going to change, but the fundamentals don't. So it doesn't matter what the next thing is, you're still going to have to use same fundamentals that we've used for. I will,

Blake Beus  20:25  I would say the fundamentals become more important. Yep. And when we talk about fundamentals, and when we talk about it a lot on this, we talk about message to market fit. We talk about offer fit fit to the audience. Yeah, because here's the thing, people change much slower. Yeah, then these tech platforms change, right. And so as long as your messaging and your offer is, is good, and in line with what people actually want, you just got to get it in front of those people. And maybe that's getting it in front of those people is different now than it was a year ago, maybe you have fewer targeting options than you had a year ago. But you still just need to get it in front of the right people. And if you get in front of the right people, you've you've got a winner. I mean, 50 years ago, it was sending direct mail. I mean, that's still as a family, and still get mail, I still get junk mail in my mailbox all the time. And they literally wouldn't send it if it wasn't making them money. So it's still working, even though that was a way of doing it 50 years ago. Yeah, it still works. today. I'm not saying you should to hop over into that space, necessarily. But

Greg Marshall  21:41  I think what you're saying too, is skill set, right, like so, the people who are really good at direct mail, continue to use it, because they're very good. But the people who maybe if you hop on an opportunity early, right, you can kind of get away with like, not being very good. Because the opportunity is so new, it's fresh costs are down. As soon as those costs go up, though, you cannot afford not to be good. Yeah, like you have to think things through and actually say, like, instead of just throwing anything out there, I have to make a good app, you have to think like who is this? How do I make sure I repel the wrong audience attract the right one? How do I get a good ad? Copy out hook? How do I have the right offer some that? Sometimes I feel like is almost overlooked? Yeah, is having a good product. Right makes a big difference. If you're marketing, like a product that's bad, then you're gonna have best ad copy in the world, but you're just not gonna see growth. I mean, you have to have a good product. And so I think with all these changes, it's inevitable. And it's interesting to like, because I'm, you know, I follow all these people on Twitter and LinkedIn and stuff, just to like, keep a good pulse of the markets. I feel like that's my job. And just kind of looking at all that it's, it's interesting to see the reactions, the almost not victim mentality, but like, yeah, in a way, like, this is unfair. And it's like, it, there's nothing's gonna, you can't, you could call them 1000 times a day and say, This is unfair, it's not gonna change. So you might as well just adjust, you've just got to adjust to what it is and what the new way is. And anytime there's tough changes. I always see. It never feels good. I can't remember who I was talking to the last week. But I always feel like this is relevant, and never feels good. While you're going through the change. That's actually good for you. Right? It never feels good while you're going through. But usually, if you hang in there, and you kind of adjust things, nine times out of 10 It's actually a good thing. Whatever is happening. Yeah, it feels very inconvenient the moment. And so that's because I still remember during COVID times, yeah, I honestly, I was scared when that first hit because my first thought was, oh, no, everyone's gonna cut budgets. Business is not even open, how am I going to advertise? And I remember being really, really concerned about that. Because I was like, Man, this is such a change. And what ended up happening was the opposite. Yeah, things grew because everyone cut their spending and as became cheaper. And so I was able to take advantage of that. So that's kind of my rant is anytime something quote unquote, bad happens, it doesn't feel great while it's happening. But usually, if you focus on the opportunity, you can find a way to make it work better than the current way. Yeah, we're working on that. Yeah.

Blake Beus  24:43  Yeah. It's interesting, interesting to think about. I'm going to shift gears just a little bit because I just have this weird thought I, I think about I think about this kind of stuff all the time. From an algorithm perspective. This would never happen, but Oh, you were you were talking, we were talking earlier about how it's doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to, to see that you're making 10x row as or whatever like that. I oftentimes wonder what would happen to their algorithm, if all advertisers agreed to report zero revenue back to Facebook and Google, he would throw their algorithm way off, and it would be very interesting to see, to see what would happen, it wouldn't that would never happen. But part of me thinks that that would be interesting. Maybe they don't deserve to see my revenue numbers. Yeah. Because when, if I can't target for conversions anymore, then you don't get to see my revenue numbers. And

Greg Marshall  25:37  I think, yeah, that you know, now that you say that, too. I wonder sometimes I wonder, because, you know, they're taking, aren't they taking cookies away to 23?

Blake Beus  25:48  Is it Yeah, but that's a that's a, that's a privacy thing. That's kind of more of like a regulation? Well, kind of a thing. But yes, that will impact advertisers. And these third party cookies are going away, even first party cookies are probably going to be going away so

Greg Marshall  26:01  well, which makes me think like, should you just prepare to like, conversion campaigns? We've talked about this before, but like, do you think eventually conversion campaigns, like selecting it as an objective could actually go away? Because how else would you track conversions? If you can't? It would have to all happen within platform, right? Because if it's going to happen on a website, if first party and third party data is going to go away, yeah. Then how would you track that?

Blake Beus  26:34  You would use something like their conversion API? Which sir, which is server to server communication, which doesn't rely on things like cookies or tracking pixels or anything like that. And so there will, there will still be ways to do it, you might just need to make sure you're on a tech platform that has an integration with Facebook's conversion API, or Google. I don't know, they don't have a fancy name for it. But Google has an API for the same thing. My

Greg Marshall  27:01  question, though, would be this. So for the lazy person who doesn't do that, not only does it impact that person, but wouldn't impact the platform because they're getting receiving less data. It would be advantageous if they want their conversions to basically make sense and use algorithm based to have everyone using this API then, right? Yeah. So if people aren't connecting their API's, what did they be losing a significant amount of data?

Blake Beus  27:31  They they would, my guess is, is that they probably don't care. And well, let me put it this way, they probably don't care about those advertisers. Because they're probably not the advertisers that are spending the money to make the real money. Right? The people spending the real money will take the effort and have resources to hook up to the API, which isn't that hard if you're a tech person, or you can hire a tech person. But if you're not a tech person, and you're doing this solo business thing, you're not spending enough money for them to progress even care.

Greg Marshall  28:09  Well. And I was just thinking not even necessarily, from that aspect. Meaning how, how accurate? Like, wouldn't even if you had a bunch of low spending people, and let's say that's like 70% of your advertisers, then you could potentially lose 70% data, does that make the machine less smart?

Blake Beus  28:31  I guess it depends on what kind of data you're looking at. And considering. So right now, the data you get from the pixel is pretty unreliable, anyway, yeah. Because it's not guaranteed data. And it's just because of how that works. So for example, the pixel is say, I'm on my computer, and I'm browsing on my computer, and I go to 10 different sites that have the Facebook pixel installed, I don't purchase anything or whatever, but I'm just browsing sites, that data gets sent back from my web browser, specifically, to Facebook. Yeah. And there's a lot of problems that can happen. My my ISP could be glitchy, or my Wi Fi could could be whatever, and those packets could get dropped. And that data could get dropped, or I might have an ad blocker installed, or something along those lines. So then that data doesn't get reported back reliably. And so unreliable data is hard to make the data meaningful at predicting, this person is going to be the next person to purchase your xyz, whatever. So having more perfect data, even if it's less data is probably advantageous to them. So it was it's less muddy, it's more accurate, even though it's less so they can rely on it better.

Greg Marshall  29:56  So I always think to Is it possible we've all become overly reliant on conversion campaigns? Like sometimes when you use conversion campaigns, you really are like leaning heavy on an algorithm? Yeah, right.

Blake Beus  30:14  Yeah. I mean, probably, but if it's working, it's working. Yeah. No, no, no saying you shouldn't do it. Yeah, just probably. But I would hazard to guess, conversion campaigns are going to become less and less in fact, effective. As as we kind of go on, you're probably not going to have a conversion campaign, that's going to be a 5x or 10x. Row as anymore, you can still get that. But it's probably going to be part of a larger marketing funnel with text messages or email marketing kind of mixed in there. And the campaign all by itself probably won't be getting the 5x row as the 10x. I was just thinking like that.

Greg Marshall  30:52  When do you remember what year like because I remember running ads, where there wasn't even a conversion objective. Do you remember what year?

Blake Beus  31:01  That was? Actually, before I started running ads, okay. Because yeah, yeah, I started. I mean, I had I had done so he

Greg Marshall  31:08  tried to make me feel.

Blake Beus  31:12  I mean, I had done some, some Tech Data integrations, from like, a software engineer side of things. But I wasn't actually running ads. I didn't start running ads until 2018. So wow,

Greg Marshall  31:27  that's Yeah, it's crazy to think because I think I've been running ads. And I never really think about how long I've been doing it. But it's, I was running ads, when you could really only get like, you could buy the right hand space. That like the desktop. And the only campaign objectives. At the time, if I remember, there was only like, have like two or three. And the highest level one was like engagement. Yeah, like you can pick the engagement objective. And that was like, and that was like next level, you pick that as like, wow, you can get people to engage on that. And then conversion campaigns came by, and I just, it's funny, because I don't remember what year, but all of a sudden, it became like, this huge game changer, like, people started using it, and it will get you these huge returns. And it was just just interesting how the evolution of all of it. And I wonder if there's like, there'll be this window and time, just like I'm talking about only doing desktop newsfeed or desktop, right hand corner ads, as like, remember that time conversion campaign. And I wonder if we're like living through that, like little window where like, it's a shift to something else, because it does change and it changes quickly. And I, you know, I just now that we're talking about these conversion campaigns. For the good old days, it's like, wow, that's, that's cool. So I think, you know, marketing, like, like we said, fundamentals don't change. For the most part, human behavior doesn't change that much. Or if it does, it's very, very slow. And the core motions, humans, I feel like will always have the same core emotions. And if you tug on those emotions, people react. And so I think if you just get good at the fundamentals, you know, selling for emotional, have people just find a logic, have a good offer, and then just adjust these platforms. Everything's gonna be just fine as long as you're willing to do the work.

Blake Beus  33:31  Yeah, I think so. All right, let's wrap it up. Greg. How can people get in touch with you,

Greg Marshall  33:35  Greg marshall.co. You can book a free strategy session with

Blake Beus  33:38  Blake beus.com/sm3 is the best way to get in touch with me.

Greg Marshall  33:41  All right. Well, until next time, I'll talk to guys later today. Bye bye.