Episode Transcript
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British TV. Stream with a free
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trial at britbox.com. The
1:27
state pension can't even provide the
1:29
minimum. And investment firms have
1:31
until the end of February to stop
1:33
snaffling the interest on their clients' cash.
1:36
Is this the start of a
1:38
new consumer-focused clampdown by the regulator?
1:40
But first, dozens of citizens' advice
1:43
centres in England are at risk
1:45
of closing because local councils which
1:47
support them are running out of money. That
1:50
warning came this week from the senior
1:52
Labour MP Clive Betts in an exclusive
1:54
interview with Moneybox. He spoke to me
1:56
in his role as chair of the
1:58
House of Commons Select Committee. on
2:00
levelling up housing and communities. He also
2:02
told me that the funding crisis in
2:04
local councils is the worst he's ever
2:06
seen in more than 30 years as
2:09
a Member of Parliament. One
2:11
of those citizens advice centres in difficulties
2:13
is in Mansfield. It told
2:15
Moneybox it'll have to close because the
2:17
local council has cut thousands of pounds
2:19
in funding. So Dan Whitworth hit the
2:21
road to Nottinghamshire. Walk
2:24
around the town centre here with its
2:26
market square, old town hall and historic
2:28
buildings in the history is easy to
2:31
spot. So
2:33
too are the tough economic times facing
2:36
communities like this one. Mansfield is one
2:38
of the most deprived parts of the
2:40
UK and it's not hard to find
2:42
boarded up and empty shops. At
2:44
the minute we're just getting by months
2:47
and months and I'm just keeping my
2:49
head above water. Everybody's struggling. Lots
2:51
of children in hospital now. I'll see where
2:53
I live. Another
2:56
large space right in the centre of town
2:58
that will soon be joining those to close
3:00
its doors for one last time is this
3:02
large glass fronted building
3:05
home to Mansfield's Citizens Advice.
3:11
Hello, Jodie. How are you
3:14
doing? Thank you. I'm very
3:16
well. Jodie Picard, I'm a specialist
3:18
at caseworker at Mansfield Citizens Advice.
3:20
Tailored to advise financial issues benefits.
3:23
Obviously with the increased cost of
3:25
living, energy, crisis, everything,
3:27
there is a massive need
3:29
and there's been an increase in the need
3:31
for that support for clients who are facing
3:33
issues just being able to pay basic household
3:35
bills. So they need help with benefits to
3:37
increase that income. So there is a huge
3:40
need for this particular service
3:43
because of it being one of the most deprived
3:45
areas as well. Hello,
3:48
Citizens Advice. How
3:50
are you doing, sis? Last year Jodie
3:52
and the team here gave tailored financial
3:54
help to two and a half thousand
3:56
people helping them secure eight
3:58
hundred thousand pounds benefits, writing
4:01
off £1.1 million worth of bad debt
4:03
and working with landlords to help avoid
4:05
countless evictions. What's going to happen to
4:08
those people? What's going to happen to
4:10
that need when you close your doors?
4:13
Well there is already from clients that we've
4:15
spoken to a sense of panic, definitely
4:17
from the clients as to where they're going to go, what they're
4:19
going to do. When you're dealing
4:22
with a client who's already got severe
4:24
mental health issues it is
4:26
concerning as to how much
4:28
more of an impact the service closing is going
4:31
to have on them. So
4:34
to try to dig a little deeper,
4:36
here's a quick 10 minute walk up
4:38
to Mansfield District Council's offices where
4:42
I find Executive Mayor Andy Abrahams.
4:46
The whole landscape with
4:48
regard to funding of
4:51
charities, voluntary services is getting to
4:53
the point where it's like most
4:55
things in the country, it's at
4:58
breaking point. Like many councils, Labour
5:00
run Mansfield District Council is
5:02
having to work hard to balance the books. It's
5:05
facing a £5 million plus deficit
5:07
while still trying to do its
5:09
best to provide services for local
5:11
residents, including offering help and
5:14
advice to the citizens' advice in
5:16
the town to try to avoid
5:18
it having to close. We've got
5:20
the 13 years of austerity, as
5:22
services have been underfunded and disappeared
5:24
from central government. There's been this
5:27
direction of making
5:30
charities, volunteers pick
5:32
up those services and it's
5:34
not a sustainable model. On
5:38
average, citizens' advice centres get about
5:41
a third of their funding from
5:43
local councils. The rest comes from
5:45
a variety of grants, charities and
5:47
other organisations. For every £1 that
5:49
you invest in a citizens' advice service,
5:52
we offer £13 back into local communities.
5:54
We know that we save government money. We help
5:56
to stop the knock on impact on other services
5:58
locally. Purcell is a
6:01
director at Citizens Advice. But ultimately
6:03
our ability to make a difference at
8:00
with this alarming prediction? Well
8:02
in most serious cases the local government association
8:04
are saying up to one in five councils
8:06
could be at risk of going bankrupt. In
8:10
all those cases citizens advice bureaus could be
8:12
at risk and therefore dozens of citizens advice
8:14
bureaus up and down the country could now
8:16
be potentially at risk in the next few
8:18
months. And if they do
8:20
go bankrupt how
8:22
does that affect funding for citizens advice?
8:25
Well in that situation councils
8:27
have to retreat to just
8:29
funding those services they are
8:32
legally obliged to like care for the
8:34
elderly, for children, special
8:36
needs education, all those
8:38
important things and then
8:41
they have to look at other services
8:43
where they haven't got the legal responsibility.
8:45
They're still important no legal responsibility so
8:47
they're things like advice centres and they're
8:49
in the line to be cut in
8:51
that situation. This is those
8:54
advice said this week that five
8:57
million people are living on what they call
8:59
a negative budget in other words they're spending
9:01
more than their income and spending it on
9:04
essentials. Two million
9:06
have cut spending to the bone. How
9:10
will the closure of citizens advice
9:12
affect them? Oh I
9:14
think very greatly because one thing that
9:16
citizens advice bureaus can do with their
9:19
expertise is to help people who
9:21
don't always know they're entitled to receive
9:23
some benefits to get them and those
9:25
extra benefits that sometimes small amount of
9:27
money can be an absolute life changer
9:29
for people who are literally at their
9:31
wits end how to balance their family
9:33
budgets. Does it go beyond benefits though?
9:36
I mean we heard about councils
9:38
managing their money should the individual be
9:40
better at managing their money? Well
9:43
citizens advice bureaus and I talked to the one
9:45
in Sheffield on a regular basis told me at
9:47
one time yes they sit down with people and
9:49
say look you've got the money here if you
9:52
only managed it better you'd be all right. They're
9:54
saying they're just meeting people now who however they
9:56
manage the budget just can't make ends meet. Don't
9:58
councils as the government says have the
10:01
responsibility to manage their own
10:03
finances. And generally, Council have done it
10:05
very well. When you think of putting this in context,
10:07
since 2010, government
10:09
have cut Council funding by 50%. Even
10:13
when Council tax increases are taken into account,
10:15
Councils now only have two-thirds as much money
10:18
to spend as they did back in 2010,
10:20
in real terms. Councils
10:23
have made cuts, they've made efficiency savings, they've
10:26
tried to manage their budgets, but then they've
10:28
now got to the point where essential services,
10:30
like our advice centres, are going. And
10:32
what's your committee going to be saying to the
10:34
government about this, because you've been taking evidence, haven't
10:36
you? We've said very clearly that
10:39
we think the whole local government finance
10:41
system is broken. Councils need immediate funding,
10:43
but then after the next election, there
10:46
has to be a comprehensive review of
10:48
what government provides and how you raise
10:50
money fairly at local level, because Council
10:52
tax is the main local tax. And
10:56
of course, it's regressive, it raises
10:58
disproportionately more from people in
11:01
lower value properties, rather than those in
11:03
high value properties. Clive Betts,
11:05
the chair of the House of Commons
11:08
Select Committee on levelling up housing and
11:10
communities. Well, Dan's with me now. What
11:12
have local councils and government had to say about this,
11:14
Dan? Well, the Local Government
11:17
Association told us councils of all
11:19
political colours and types of warning
11:21
are the serious challenges they face
11:23
to set balanced budgets next year
11:25
and how that will hit discretionary
11:27
services. It wants central government to
11:29
extend the Household Support Fund for
11:31
at least a year. Well,
11:33
as for Westminster, the minister responsible for
11:35
this poll, he's Michael Gove, says up
11:38
to £64 billion has been made available
11:40
to local authorities in England. That's an
11:42
increase of seven and a half percent
11:44
on the previous year, which he
11:46
says will allow local authorities to support
11:49
communities and reform services to help them
11:51
prepare for the future. Thanks, Dan. The
11:54
cost of a comfortable retirement in Britain has
11:56
jumped by nearly £6,000 to just... over
12:00
£43,000 a year for a single person, £59,000 for a
12:02
couple. Every year the Pensions and
12:08
Lifetime Savings Association publishes figures worked out
12:10
by Loughborough University for the amount of
12:12
money you'd need to spend on certain
12:14
lifestyles in retirement. No surprise perhaps that
12:17
the cost, like everything else, has risen
12:19
sharply, even for what it calls a
12:21
minimum living standard. A single person now
12:23
needs an income of £14,400 a year,
12:26
well above the
12:29
state pension for almost everyone and what
12:31
it calls a moderate lifestyle will
12:33
cost just over £31,000 for
12:36
a single person. Reporter Sandra Hardil
12:38
went for a walk in Cheshire to
12:40
ask people in style about their expectations
12:42
for retirement. When do you
12:45
want to retire? Oh my goodness. Erm. Is
12:49
this as possible? No, erm, I don't know.
12:51
Where do I want to retire Josh? 60?
12:53
Guess so. Well I want
12:55
to work as long as I can.
12:57
I'm 54 now and I've just started
12:59
a new career actually about a year
13:01
ago with Caddein Crew so I'm loving
13:03
that. So I'm not, I am thinking
13:06
about retirement in the future but not
13:08
for now. Are either of you working
13:10
or are you retired? I'm retired, fully
13:12
retired. And I'm part-time. How
13:15
is retirement financially? Do you feel
13:17
like you were prepared? I think
13:19
I was pretty prepared. I'm in
13:21
a fortunate situation that,
13:24
you know, I can afford to do nice things
13:26
so yeah, I was pretty prepared. How about
13:28
yourself? Well I wasn't quite prepared because I
13:30
didn't invest in a large pension
13:32
and I didn't have a pension so
13:35
basically that's when I'm working part-time to
13:37
build that pension pot up so I
13:39
can retire but I'm significantly younger as
13:42
you can tell. No, I've
13:45
probably got another five years to
13:47
work maybe. How much do you
13:49
think you'll need to save to retire comfortably? Good
13:52
question. I don't know, 50, 60,000?
13:54
I've just paid into an NHS pension
13:56
so I just presumed that that was
13:58
a good one. would cover me but
14:00
I can't really tell you an exact
14:03
figure. So some research came out this
14:05
week and it shows the amount you'd
14:07
need on a yearly basis to have
14:09
a certain lifestyle in retirement. I
14:11
have the graph here. What's
14:13
your reaction to these figures? I
14:16
think the minimum is definitely the minimum. I would look
14:18
at the 22, 2.5, 14, you couldn't live
14:22
on that maybe 10 years
14:24
ago but not now. Moderate because that's
14:26
probably the sort of income that we
14:29
would be looking out to go on
14:31
a holiday a year or two holidays.
14:33
Not big holidays but living comfortably. I
14:36
think you don't realise, a lot of
14:38
people don't realise how much you actually
14:40
need. Do
14:43
you think these figures are attainable? For
14:45
some but not for a normal lot. I
14:47
would think that the majority of people are
14:49
looking at this figure at the moment. 22,
14:51
14 to 22. I think it depends. I
14:53
live on my own so if you're
15:00
in a joint household and
15:02
you own your own property and things like
15:04
that, you've got all the sources of income
15:06
but for a single person that would be
15:08
quite difficult really I would think. I think
15:11
on salary at the moment, them having been
15:13
frozen, I just don't think people have the capacity to
15:15
save that much. The minimum looks
15:17
attainable but comfortable feels like another
15:19
world really. According
15:21
to that is Nigel People, he's Director of
15:24
Policy at the Pensions and Lifetime Savings Association
15:26
that published these figures. Nigel
15:28
People, Sandra found some surprise at your
15:30
figures among those people in style. No
15:32
one thought that comfortable level was achievable.
15:35
How do you calculate them? Morning
15:38
Paul. Basically they are
15:41
calculated by independent research by Loughborough
15:43
University who are the specialists in
15:45
living standards research and they form
15:47
these figures on the basis of
15:49
talking to members of the British
15:51
public from across the whole of
15:53
the UK and they
15:55
ask them to think about three
15:57
lifestyles, a minimum basic level where
15:59
you have enough to cover all your urgent
16:02
needs like housing and clothing but
16:04
also a little bit extra to go out
16:06
and then you go you want your way
16:08
up to comfortable where you start getting into
16:10
the realm of wants and things that are
16:12
might be considered luxuries. Yes, I mean we
16:15
heard from one person in style that she
16:17
had an NHS pension she presumed that would
16:19
be enough. People with a pension from their
16:21
job, is it sensible to think that will
16:23
be enough? Well, it
16:25
might be. I mean, someone with an NHS
16:27
pension, they may not have enough to be
16:29
comfortable but I think they've got a pretty
16:31
good chance of reaching the middle level, the
16:33
moderate level. It will depend on your salary
16:35
and the years of working and for many
16:38
people it will depend on how much you're
16:40
putting away but it is true that the
16:42
average minimum level required by law
16:44
for workplace pension saving will not
16:47
get you up to the moderate
16:49
or comfortable levels. No and you
16:51
know £43,000 for a single person to become sort of
16:53
£59,000 for a couple and Ellie's
16:58
tweeted to say my current salary is nowhere near
17:00
that. I've worked for 44 years. I
17:02
mean, these are well above the average wage,
17:05
aren't they? And it's in retirement, you're not
17:07
working for that. Yeah, no,
17:09
I mean, as I said, they're based
17:11
on what the British public would like
17:13
to have and this is the top
17:15
level. We estimate about one in ten
17:17
people are likely to be able to
17:19
have that lifestyle. Most of us are
17:21
going to be looking at the minimum
17:23
to moderate lifestyles. I would emphasise that
17:25
that's a pretty good lifestyle, minimum to
17:27
moderate, at moderate level you can go
17:29
on a two weeks holiday to Europe,
17:31
you can run a car, you
17:33
can do a whole bunch of nice things.
17:36
So you're not in poverty perhaps but
17:39
it is £3,000 more than the state
17:41
pension, the minimum, isn't it? And you'd need
17:43
nearly four state pensions to have a comfortable
17:45
retirement. Does everyone need a
17:48
good company or a personal pension, perhaps
17:50
an auto-enrolment pension? I
17:53
must just say again, if you've got two people,
17:55
a couple with a full state
17:57
pension, they will reach the minimum level. But
18:00
you're absolutely right. It's better
18:02
to be saving through the workplace You get
18:05
a contribution from your employer You get tax
18:07
relief from the government and you get the
18:09
habit of putting a bit of money aside
18:12
And that really helps you work your way
18:14
up from the minimum to the moderate level
18:16
Yes, and of course the government also says
18:18
it made the biggest state pension cash increase
18:20
in history last year And there's another one
18:22
in April but pension credit which is the
18:24
minimum You're supposed to live on according to
18:26
the government is three thousand pounds less than
18:29
than your minimum Yeah,
18:31
no sir as I said This
18:34
minimum is based on the view of the British
18:36
public and it's above the sort of Food
18:39
lodging shelter. It's about being able to take
18:42
part in society go down the pub once
18:44
we a modest level of lifestyle Above
18:47
the absolute bare minimum, but I do agree
18:49
with you It's been sorry
18:51
I do agree with you that the government's been
18:54
good on the state pension recently and I think
18:56
it's really essential that they keep They
18:58
maintain the value of the state pension and
19:00
they maintain the triple lock so that everybody
19:02
will have a good foundation For
19:04
the extra workplace pension saving on top.
19:06
Yeah, so just a foundation Nigel people
19:09
from the pensions and lifetime savings association Thanks
19:11
a lot money box live on Wednesday for
19:13
the city Hannah will be asking when do
19:15
you want to retire? And you can stop
19:17
shouting tomorrow at the radio now Could you
19:19
imagine doing your current job into your 70s
19:22
or can you afford not to are you
19:24
working out the perfect side hustle? For retirement
19:26
or perhaps you're retraining to be cabin crew
19:28
like the lady in style email us or
19:30
send a voice note to moneybox at BBC
19:32
dot-co dot UK leave a phone number if
19:35
you can Investment
19:37
platforms and providers of personal
19:39
pensions usually called nowadays
19:42
have just a few weeks left to
19:44
make sure the way they treat customers
19:46
cash balances fits in with new rules
19:48
called their consumer duty in
19:51
December the financial conduct Authority
19:53
wrote to 42 firms after
19:55
concerns that most of them were keeping some
19:57
or all of the interest they earned on
20:00
customers' cash balances. And with interest rates
20:02
of 4% or more, that's meant big
20:05
returns for them. The regulator found that
20:07
between them, in one month, the company's
20:09
retained interest worth over £74 million that
20:13
had been paid on customers' money.
20:16
And some were also charging customers
20:18
a fee for keeping the cash
20:20
for them. That's known as double-dipping.
20:23
The regulator told firms they must make changes
20:25
by the end of this month in what's
20:27
been one of its first interventions under this
20:30
new consumer duty. Mark Polson is
20:32
the chief executive of the Langcat,
20:34
which is a financial services consultancy
20:36
for advisors and providers. And Mark
20:39
Polson, first, that consumer duty. What
20:41
must firms do to obey it?
20:44
And why is snaffling the interest
20:46
against these rules? Interest
20:49
snaffling is definitely a bad thing. The
20:53
consumer duty most
20:55
broadly requires firms, whether they're
20:57
advisors or providers, to ensure
21:00
fair value for customers. The
21:02
colloquial way of talking about it, I
21:05
think, is the granny test. If you wouldn't put your
21:07
granny through this, then you shouldn't do it. And
21:09
in the area of retaining cash
21:11
interest, there are two issues here.
21:14
First is that it's happening in
21:16
the extent to which it's happening,
21:18
although retaining interest isn't
21:21
actually against any rules. The amount of
21:23
it and the level of disclosure and
21:25
information that customers are being given about
21:27
it isn't good enough. But
21:30
also the practice of double-dipping,
21:32
where firms not only keep
21:35
some of the interest for themselves, but
21:37
also charge customers for doing that, has
21:39
to finish. Yes, and the FCA, the
21:42
regulator, says firms must change things by
21:44
the end of this month. What
21:46
have they done already? Have they been doing what
21:48
they're told? Yes, in the main. Nobody
21:50
wants to be the last person to find
21:53
out what happens and
21:55
what the regulator's going to do to anybody
21:57
that hasn't stopped the practice of double-dipping. that
22:00
element of it, I think we can expect
22:02
to finish by the end of this month.
22:05
The issue about retaining some
22:07
of the interest that
22:09
clients earn when they hold cash
22:11
in Sips or on investment platforms,
22:14
that's a little bit more nuanced.
22:16
Firms are allowed to continue doing
22:18
that, but they have to be
22:20
able to justify it, not only
22:23
to themselves and to clients, but
22:25
also to the regulator. Yes,
22:27
and the consumer's duty, I mean it covers that, I mean
22:29
that's something many of people would think, well they
22:31
shouldn't have done in the first place, but it covers
22:33
a lot more than that, doesn't it? And what
22:36
about charges? Many firms, particularly advice
22:38
firms, take a percentage of their
22:40
client's money each year. Are
22:43
they now going to have to justify that
22:45
and actually work for it? Well,
22:48
most firms... I'm not saying that they don't, but some
22:51
of them don't, do they Mark? We know that.
22:53
Yes, I think it's fair to say that the
22:55
regulator has found examples of where people are going
22:57
to be, haven't been charged ongoing
23:00
fees and aren't receiving any service
23:02
for that. So where it's an
23:04
advisor, for example, the
23:06
regulator said, listen, you should be expecting
23:08
to get a review of your portfolio
23:10
performance, the firm should be checking to
23:12
see if your circumstances have changed, you
23:14
should have an ongoing relationship and
23:17
it's absolutely fair to be charged for that.
23:19
To be honest, whether it's a percentage or
23:21
a flat fee is almost
23:23
a second order issue here. The point
23:25
is, if you're paying for something in
23:27
whatever form on an ongoing basis, you
23:30
should be getting ongoing service that goes along with it.
23:33
What about independent financial advisors? They look at
23:35
the whole of the market, they find the
23:37
best investment for you, but many advisors now
23:39
are restricted, including some of the very big
23:41
ones. I mean, they really can't find the
23:43
best, can they, because they're limited to a
23:45
few. How does
23:47
consumer duty affect restricted
23:49
advice? It
23:51
largely is flat
23:54
between restricted and independent. The
23:56
duty of ensuring that
23:58
you're delivering fair value for your company.
24:00
your customers in the world
24:02
in which you inhabit is the same for both.
24:05
One of the things that consumer duty
24:07
does do though and it be allied
24:09
to some more reviews that the regulator
24:12
is putting out this year is trying
24:14
to get the standard of disclosure and
24:16
information to customers much, much better than
24:18
it is at the moment. It's quite
24:21
hard just now sometimes for customers to
24:23
understand where independent stops
24:25
and unrestricted starts because some restricted
24:27
firms cover very nearly the whole
24:29
with the market but not the whole thing.
24:32
Others just do stuff from their own
24:35
firm. So the standard
24:37
of understanding
24:40
needs to increase dramatically and firms
24:42
have to take account of that. Mark Poulson
24:44
of the Lencat, thanks. You
24:46
know what I'm going to say now,
24:48
don't you? The best investment is to
24:50
listen to the Moneybox Podcast and there
24:52
is no charge or you can listen
24:54
live when we broadcast every Saturday at
24:57
midday on BBC Radio 4 also free.
25:00
If you want a closer look at one Money
25:02
topic then Moneybox Live with Felicity Hannah also has
25:04
a podcast which comes with your subscription. Next
25:07
up as I said, when do you want to retire? Catch
25:10
it live or catch up on BBC Sounds. We'd
25:12
love to hear from you of course about the money
25:15
stuff you think is important or indeed
25:17
scandalous. Email Moneybox at
25:19
bbc.po.uk with your stirring stories. We do
25:21
read them all and you might get
25:23
on the show. In
25:26
this podcast the reporters were Dan Whitworth
25:28
and Sandra Hardial, researcher Joe Krasner, studio
25:30
manager Sam Biddle, our editor is Jess
25:33
Quayle. I'm Paul Lewis and this was
25:35
the BBC News Money and Work production
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for BBC Sounds. I
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think the power of the show was crazy back then.
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The X Factor promised to turn ordinary
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people into pop stars who stood
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there behind the dogs when 16
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million people were about to watch you go on
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25:54
luck girls, good luck. I'm
25:57
Chitty Zendoo. For years I was
25:59
a BBC showboy. journalists who covered
26:01
every twist and turn. I
26:04
want to go behind the scenes
26:06
to find out from staff and
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contestants what it was like. You
26:11
don't just want average people, you want to, you
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know, it was so bad. They were comical. I
26:15
feel like I was humiliated just for the entertainment.
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Did the show ever come back and they said
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to me, Sam, when you come on and do it
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again, I'd be like, what time do you want me? Over
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