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Citizens Advice Closure and Investment Platforms

Citizens Advice Closure and Investment Platforms

Released Saturday, 9th March 2024
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Citizens Advice Closure and Investment Platforms

Citizens Advice Closure and Investment Platforms

Citizens Advice Closure and Investment Platforms

Citizens Advice Closure and Investment Platforms

Saturday, 9th March 2024
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Episode Transcript

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0:00

This is the BBC. There's

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story of Hollywood's greatest leading

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BritBox and escape to the best of

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British TV. Stream with a free

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trial at britbox.com. The

1:27

state pension can't even provide the

1:29

minimum. And investment firms have

1:31

until the end of February to stop

1:33

snaffling the interest on their clients' cash.

1:36

Is this the start of a

1:38

new consumer-focused clampdown by the regulator?

1:40

But first, dozens of citizens' advice

1:43

centres in England are at risk

1:45

of closing because local councils which

1:47

support them are running out of money. That

1:50

warning came this week from the senior

1:52

Labour MP Clive Betts in an exclusive

1:54

interview with Moneybox. He spoke to me

1:56

in his role as chair of the

1:58

House of Commons Select Committee. on

2:00

levelling up housing and communities. He also

2:02

told me that the funding crisis in

2:04

local councils is the worst he's ever

2:06

seen in more than 30 years as

2:09

a Member of Parliament. One

2:11

of those citizens advice centres in difficulties

2:13

is in Mansfield. It told

2:15

Moneybox it'll have to close because the

2:17

local council has cut thousands of pounds

2:19

in funding. So Dan Whitworth hit the

2:21

road to Nottinghamshire. Walk

2:24

around the town centre here with its

2:26

market square, old town hall and historic

2:28

buildings in the history is easy to

2:31

spot. So

2:33

too are the tough economic times facing

2:36

communities like this one. Mansfield is one

2:38

of the most deprived parts of the

2:40

UK and it's not hard to find

2:42

boarded up and empty shops. At

2:44

the minute we're just getting by months

2:47

and months and I'm just keeping my

2:49

head above water. Everybody's struggling. Lots

2:51

of children in hospital now. I'll see where

2:53

I live. Another

2:56

large space right in the centre of town

2:58

that will soon be joining those to close

3:00

its doors for one last time is this

3:02

large glass fronted building

3:05

home to Mansfield's Citizens Advice.

3:11

Hello, Jodie. How are you

3:14

doing? Thank you. I'm very

3:16

well. Jodie Picard, I'm a specialist

3:18

at caseworker at Mansfield Citizens Advice.

3:20

Tailored to advise financial issues benefits.

3:23

Obviously with the increased cost of

3:25

living, energy, crisis, everything,

3:27

there is a massive need

3:29

and there's been an increase in the need

3:31

for that support for clients who are facing

3:33

issues just being able to pay basic household

3:35

bills. So they need help with benefits to

3:37

increase that income. So there is a huge

3:40

need for this particular service

3:43

because of it being one of the most deprived

3:45

areas as well. Hello,

3:48

Citizens Advice. How

3:50

are you doing, sis? Last year Jodie

3:52

and the team here gave tailored financial

3:54

help to two and a half thousand

3:56

people helping them secure eight

3:58

hundred thousand pounds benefits, writing

4:01

off £1.1 million worth of bad debt

4:03

and working with landlords to help avoid

4:05

countless evictions. What's going to happen to

4:08

those people? What's going to happen to

4:10

that need when you close your doors?

4:13

Well there is already from clients that we've

4:15

spoken to a sense of panic, definitely

4:17

from the clients as to where they're going to go, what they're

4:19

going to do. When you're dealing

4:22

with a client who's already got severe

4:24

mental health issues it is

4:26

concerning as to how much

4:28

more of an impact the service closing is going

4:31

to have on them. So

4:34

to try to dig a little deeper,

4:36

here's a quick 10 minute walk up

4:38

to Mansfield District Council's offices where

4:42

I find Executive Mayor Andy Abrahams.

4:46

The whole landscape with

4:48

regard to funding of

4:51

charities, voluntary services is getting to

4:53

the point where it's like most

4:55

things in the country, it's at

4:58

breaking point. Like many councils, Labour

5:00

run Mansfield District Council is

5:02

having to work hard to balance the books. It's

5:05

facing a £5 million plus deficit

5:07

while still trying to do its

5:09

best to provide services for local

5:11

residents, including offering help and

5:14

advice to the citizens' advice in

5:16

the town to try to avoid

5:18

it having to close. We've got

5:20

the 13 years of austerity, as

5:22

services have been underfunded and disappeared

5:24

from central government. There's been this

5:27

direction of making

5:30

charities, volunteers pick

5:32

up those services and it's

5:34

not a sustainable model. On

5:38

average, citizens' advice centres get about

5:41

a third of their funding from

5:43

local councils. The rest comes from

5:45

a variety of grants, charities and

5:47

other organisations. For every £1 that

5:49

you invest in a citizens' advice service,

5:52

we offer £13 back into local communities.

5:54

We know that we save government money. We help

5:56

to stop the knock on impact on other services

5:58

locally. Purcell is a

6:01

director at Citizens Advice. But ultimately

6:03

our ability to make a difference at

8:00

with this alarming prediction? Well

8:02

in most serious cases the local government association

8:04

are saying up to one in five councils

8:06

could be at risk of going bankrupt. In

8:10

all those cases citizens advice bureaus could be

8:12

at risk and therefore dozens of citizens advice

8:14

bureaus up and down the country could now

8:16

be potentially at risk in the next few

8:18

months. And if they do

8:20

go bankrupt how

8:22

does that affect funding for citizens advice?

8:25

Well in that situation councils

8:27

have to retreat to just

8:29

funding those services they are

8:32

legally obliged to like care for the

8:34

elderly, for children, special

8:36

needs education, all those

8:38

important things and then

8:41

they have to look at other services

8:43

where they haven't got the legal responsibility.

8:45

They're still important no legal responsibility so

8:47

they're things like advice centres and they're

8:49

in the line to be cut in

8:51

that situation. This is those

8:54

advice said this week that five

8:57

million people are living on what they call

8:59

a negative budget in other words they're spending

9:01

more than their income and spending it on

9:04

essentials. Two million

9:06

have cut spending to the bone. How

9:10

will the closure of citizens advice

9:12

affect them? Oh I

9:14

think very greatly because one thing that

9:16

citizens advice bureaus can do with their

9:19

expertise is to help people who

9:21

don't always know they're entitled to receive

9:23

some benefits to get them and those

9:25

extra benefits that sometimes small amount of

9:27

money can be an absolute life changer

9:29

for people who are literally at their

9:31

wits end how to balance their family

9:33

budgets. Does it go beyond benefits though?

9:36

I mean we heard about councils

9:38

managing their money should the individual be

9:40

better at managing their money? Well

9:43

citizens advice bureaus and I talked to the one

9:45

in Sheffield on a regular basis told me at

9:47

one time yes they sit down with people and

9:49

say look you've got the money here if you

9:52

only managed it better you'd be all right. They're

9:54

saying they're just meeting people now who however they

9:56

manage the budget just can't make ends meet. Don't

9:58

councils as the government says have the

10:01

responsibility to manage their own

10:03

finances. And generally, Council have done it

10:05

very well. When you think of putting this in context,

10:07

since 2010, government

10:09

have cut Council funding by 50%. Even

10:13

when Council tax increases are taken into account,

10:15

Councils now only have two-thirds as much money

10:18

to spend as they did back in 2010,

10:20

in real terms. Councils

10:23

have made cuts, they've made efficiency savings, they've

10:26

tried to manage their budgets, but then they've

10:28

now got to the point where essential services,

10:30

like our advice centres, are going. And

10:32

what's your committee going to be saying to the

10:34

government about this, because you've been taking evidence, haven't

10:36

you? We've said very clearly that

10:39

we think the whole local government finance

10:41

system is broken. Councils need immediate funding,

10:43

but then after the next election, there

10:46

has to be a comprehensive review of

10:48

what government provides and how you raise

10:50

money fairly at local level, because Council

10:52

tax is the main local tax. And

10:56

of course, it's regressive, it raises

10:58

disproportionately more from people in

11:01

lower value properties, rather than those in

11:03

high value properties. Clive Betts,

11:05

the chair of the House of Commons

11:08

Select Committee on levelling up housing and

11:10

communities. Well, Dan's with me now. What

11:12

have local councils and government had to say about this,

11:14

Dan? Well, the Local Government

11:17

Association told us councils of all

11:19

political colours and types of warning

11:21

are the serious challenges they face

11:23

to set balanced budgets next year

11:25

and how that will hit discretionary

11:27

services. It wants central government to

11:29

extend the Household Support Fund for

11:31

at least a year. Well,

11:33

as for Westminster, the minister responsible for

11:35

this poll, he's Michael Gove, says up

11:38

to £64 billion has been made available

11:40

to local authorities in England. That's an

11:42

increase of seven and a half percent

11:44

on the previous year, which he

11:46

says will allow local authorities to support

11:49

communities and reform services to help them

11:51

prepare for the future. Thanks, Dan. The

11:54

cost of a comfortable retirement in Britain has

11:56

jumped by nearly £6,000 to just... over

12:00

£43,000 a year for a single person, £59,000 for a

12:02

couple. Every year the Pensions and

12:08

Lifetime Savings Association publishes figures worked out

12:10

by Loughborough University for the amount of

12:12

money you'd need to spend on certain

12:14

lifestyles in retirement. No surprise perhaps that

12:17

the cost, like everything else, has risen

12:19

sharply, even for what it calls a

12:21

minimum living standard. A single person now

12:23

needs an income of £14,400 a year,

12:26

well above the

12:29

state pension for almost everyone and what

12:31

it calls a moderate lifestyle will

12:33

cost just over £31,000 for

12:36

a single person. Reporter Sandra Hardil

12:38

went for a walk in Cheshire to

12:40

ask people in style about their expectations

12:42

for retirement. When do you

12:45

want to retire? Oh my goodness. Erm. Is

12:49

this as possible? No, erm, I don't know.

12:51

Where do I want to retire Josh? 60?

12:53

Guess so. Well I want

12:55

to work as long as I can.

12:57

I'm 54 now and I've just started

12:59

a new career actually about a year

13:01

ago with Caddein Crew so I'm loving

13:03

that. So I'm not, I am thinking

13:06

about retirement in the future but not

13:08

for now. Are either of you working

13:10

or are you retired? I'm retired, fully

13:12

retired. And I'm part-time. How

13:15

is retirement financially? Do you feel

13:17

like you were prepared? I think

13:19

I was pretty prepared. I'm in

13:21

a fortunate situation that,

13:24

you know, I can afford to do nice things

13:26

so yeah, I was pretty prepared. How about

13:28

yourself? Well I wasn't quite prepared because I

13:30

didn't invest in a large pension

13:32

and I didn't have a pension so

13:35

basically that's when I'm working part-time to

13:37

build that pension pot up so I

13:39

can retire but I'm significantly younger as

13:42

you can tell. No, I've

13:45

probably got another five years to

13:47

work maybe. How much do you

13:49

think you'll need to save to retire comfortably? Good

13:52

question. I don't know, 50, 60,000?

13:54

I've just paid into an NHS pension

13:56

so I just presumed that that was

13:58

a good one. would cover me but

14:00

I can't really tell you an exact

14:03

figure. So some research came out this

14:05

week and it shows the amount you'd

14:07

need on a yearly basis to have

14:09

a certain lifestyle in retirement. I

14:11

have the graph here. What's

14:13

your reaction to these figures? I

14:16

think the minimum is definitely the minimum. I would look

14:18

at the 22, 2.5, 14, you couldn't live

14:22

on that maybe 10 years

14:24

ago but not now. Moderate because that's

14:26

probably the sort of income that we

14:29

would be looking out to go on

14:31

a holiday a year or two holidays.

14:33

Not big holidays but living comfortably. I

14:36

think you don't realise, a lot of

14:38

people don't realise how much you actually

14:40

need. Do

14:43

you think these figures are attainable? For

14:45

some but not for a normal lot. I

14:47

would think that the majority of people are

14:49

looking at this figure at the moment. 22,

14:51

14 to 22. I think it depends. I

14:53

live on my own so if you're

15:00

in a joint household and

15:02

you own your own property and things like

15:04

that, you've got all the sources of income

15:06

but for a single person that would be

15:08

quite difficult really I would think. I think

15:11

on salary at the moment, them having been

15:13

frozen, I just don't think people have the capacity to

15:15

save that much. The minimum looks

15:17

attainable but comfortable feels like another

15:19

world really. According

15:21

to that is Nigel People, he's Director of

15:24

Policy at the Pensions and Lifetime Savings Association

15:26

that published these figures. Nigel

15:28

People, Sandra found some surprise at your

15:30

figures among those people in style. No

15:32

one thought that comfortable level was achievable.

15:35

How do you calculate them? Morning

15:38

Paul. Basically they are

15:41

calculated by independent research by Loughborough

15:43

University who are the specialists in

15:45

living standards research and they form

15:47

these figures on the basis of

15:49

talking to members of the British

15:51

public from across the whole of

15:53

the UK and they

15:55

ask them to think about three

15:57

lifestyles, a minimum basic level where

15:59

you have enough to cover all your urgent

16:02

needs like housing and clothing but

16:04

also a little bit extra to go out

16:06

and then you go you want your way

16:08

up to comfortable where you start getting into

16:10

the realm of wants and things that are

16:12

might be considered luxuries. Yes, I mean we

16:15

heard from one person in style that she

16:17

had an NHS pension she presumed that would

16:19

be enough. People with a pension from their

16:21

job, is it sensible to think that will

16:23

be enough? Well, it

16:25

might be. I mean, someone with an NHS

16:27

pension, they may not have enough to be

16:29

comfortable but I think they've got a pretty

16:31

good chance of reaching the middle level, the

16:33

moderate level. It will depend on your salary

16:35

and the years of working and for many

16:38

people it will depend on how much you're

16:40

putting away but it is true that the

16:42

average minimum level required by law

16:44

for workplace pension saving will not

16:47

get you up to the moderate

16:49

or comfortable levels. No and you

16:51

know £43,000 for a single person to become sort of

16:53

£59,000 for a couple and Ellie's

16:58

tweeted to say my current salary is nowhere near

17:00

that. I've worked for 44 years. I

17:02

mean, these are well above the average wage,

17:05

aren't they? And it's in retirement, you're not

17:07

working for that. Yeah, no,

17:09

I mean, as I said, they're based

17:11

on what the British public would like

17:13

to have and this is the top

17:15

level. We estimate about one in ten

17:17

people are likely to be able to

17:19

have that lifestyle. Most of us are

17:21

going to be looking at the minimum

17:23

to moderate lifestyles. I would emphasise that

17:25

that's a pretty good lifestyle, minimum to

17:27

moderate, at moderate level you can go

17:29

on a two weeks holiday to Europe,

17:31

you can run a car, you

17:33

can do a whole bunch of nice things.

17:36

So you're not in poverty perhaps but

17:39

it is £3,000 more than the state

17:41

pension, the minimum, isn't it? And you'd need

17:43

nearly four state pensions to have a comfortable

17:45

retirement. Does everyone need a

17:48

good company or a personal pension, perhaps

17:50

an auto-enrolment pension? I

17:53

must just say again, if you've got two people,

17:55

a couple with a full state

17:57

pension, they will reach the minimum level. But

18:00

you're absolutely right. It's better

18:02

to be saving through the workplace You get

18:05

a contribution from your employer You get tax

18:07

relief from the government and you get the

18:09

habit of putting a bit of money aside

18:12

And that really helps you work your way

18:14

up from the minimum to the moderate level

18:16

Yes, and of course the government also says

18:18

it made the biggest state pension cash increase

18:20

in history last year And there's another one

18:22

in April but pension credit which is the

18:24

minimum You're supposed to live on according to

18:26

the government is three thousand pounds less than

18:29

than your minimum Yeah,

18:31

no sir as I said This

18:34

minimum is based on the view of the British

18:36

public and it's above the sort of Food

18:39

lodging shelter. It's about being able to take

18:42

part in society go down the pub once

18:44

we a modest level of lifestyle Above

18:47

the absolute bare minimum, but I do agree

18:49

with you It's been sorry

18:51

I do agree with you that the government's been

18:54

good on the state pension recently and I think

18:56

it's really essential that they keep They

18:58

maintain the value of the state pension and

19:00

they maintain the triple lock so that everybody

19:02

will have a good foundation For

19:04

the extra workplace pension saving on top.

19:06

Yeah, so just a foundation Nigel people

19:09

from the pensions and lifetime savings association Thanks

19:11

a lot money box live on Wednesday for

19:13

the city Hannah will be asking when do

19:15

you want to retire? And you can stop

19:17

shouting tomorrow at the radio now Could you

19:19

imagine doing your current job into your 70s

19:22

or can you afford not to are you

19:24

working out the perfect side hustle? For retirement

19:26

or perhaps you're retraining to be cabin crew

19:28

like the lady in style email us or

19:30

send a voice note to moneybox at BBC

19:32

dot-co dot UK leave a phone number if

19:35

you can Investment

19:37

platforms and providers of personal

19:39

pensions usually called nowadays

19:42

have just a few weeks left to

19:44

make sure the way they treat customers

19:46

cash balances fits in with new rules

19:48

called their consumer duty in

19:51

December the financial conduct Authority

19:53

wrote to 42 firms after

19:55

concerns that most of them were keeping some

19:57

or all of the interest they earned on

20:00

customers' cash balances. And with interest rates

20:02

of 4% or more, that's meant big

20:05

returns for them. The regulator found that

20:07

between them, in one month, the company's

20:09

retained interest worth over £74 million that

20:13

had been paid on customers' money.

20:16

And some were also charging customers

20:18

a fee for keeping the cash

20:20

for them. That's known as double-dipping.

20:23

The regulator told firms they must make changes

20:25

by the end of this month in what's

20:27

been one of its first interventions under this

20:30

new consumer duty. Mark Polson is

20:32

the chief executive of the Langcat,

20:34

which is a financial services consultancy

20:36

for advisors and providers. And Mark

20:39

Polson, first, that consumer duty. What

20:41

must firms do to obey it?

20:44

And why is snaffling the interest

20:46

against these rules? Interest

20:49

snaffling is definitely a bad thing. The

20:53

consumer duty most

20:55

broadly requires firms, whether they're

20:57

advisors or providers, to ensure

21:00

fair value for customers. The

21:02

colloquial way of talking about it, I

21:05

think, is the granny test. If you wouldn't put your

21:07

granny through this, then you shouldn't do it. And

21:09

in the area of retaining cash

21:11

interest, there are two issues here.

21:14

First is that it's happening in

21:16

the extent to which it's happening,

21:18

although retaining interest isn't

21:21

actually against any rules. The amount of

21:23

it and the level of disclosure and

21:25

information that customers are being given about

21:27

it isn't good enough. But

21:30

also the practice of double-dipping,

21:32

where firms not only keep

21:35

some of the interest for themselves, but

21:37

also charge customers for doing that, has

21:39

to finish. Yes, and the FCA, the

21:42

regulator, says firms must change things by

21:44

the end of this month. What

21:46

have they done already? Have they been doing what

21:48

they're told? Yes, in the main. Nobody

21:50

wants to be the last person to find

21:53

out what happens and

21:55

what the regulator's going to do to anybody

21:57

that hasn't stopped the practice of double-dipping. that

22:00

element of it, I think we can expect

22:02

to finish by the end of this month.

22:05

The issue about retaining some

22:07

of the interest that

22:09

clients earn when they hold cash

22:11

in Sips or on investment platforms,

22:14

that's a little bit more nuanced.

22:16

Firms are allowed to continue doing

22:18

that, but they have to be

22:20

able to justify it, not only

22:23

to themselves and to clients, but

22:25

also to the regulator. Yes,

22:27

and the consumer's duty, I mean it covers that, I mean

22:29

that's something many of people would think, well they

22:31

shouldn't have done in the first place, but it covers

22:33

a lot more than that, doesn't it? And what

22:36

about charges? Many firms, particularly advice

22:38

firms, take a percentage of their

22:40

client's money each year. Are

22:43

they now going to have to justify that

22:45

and actually work for it? Well,

22:48

most firms... I'm not saying that they don't, but some

22:51

of them don't, do they Mark? We know that.

22:53

Yes, I think it's fair to say that the

22:55

regulator has found examples of where people are going

22:57

to be, haven't been charged ongoing

23:00

fees and aren't receiving any service

23:02

for that. So where it's an

23:04

advisor, for example, the

23:06

regulator said, listen, you should be expecting

23:08

to get a review of your portfolio

23:10

performance, the firm should be checking to

23:12

see if your circumstances have changed, you

23:14

should have an ongoing relationship and

23:17

it's absolutely fair to be charged for that.

23:19

To be honest, whether it's a percentage or

23:21

a flat fee is almost

23:23

a second order issue here. The point

23:25

is, if you're paying for something in

23:27

whatever form on an ongoing basis, you

23:30

should be getting ongoing service that goes along with it.

23:33

What about independent financial advisors? They look at

23:35

the whole of the market, they find the

23:37

best investment for you, but many advisors now

23:39

are restricted, including some of the very big

23:41

ones. I mean, they really can't find the

23:43

best, can they, because they're limited to a

23:45

few. How does

23:47

consumer duty affect restricted

23:49

advice? It

23:51

largely is flat

23:54

between restricted and independent. The

23:56

duty of ensuring that

23:58

you're delivering fair value for your company.

24:00

your customers in the world

24:02

in which you inhabit is the same for both.

24:05

One of the things that consumer duty

24:07

does do though and it be allied

24:09

to some more reviews that the regulator

24:12

is putting out this year is trying

24:14

to get the standard of disclosure and

24:16

information to customers much, much better than

24:18

it is at the moment. It's quite

24:21

hard just now sometimes for customers to

24:23

understand where independent stops

24:25

and unrestricted starts because some restricted

24:27

firms cover very nearly the whole

24:29

with the market but not the whole thing.

24:32

Others just do stuff from their own

24:35

firm. So the standard

24:37

of understanding

24:40

needs to increase dramatically and firms

24:42

have to take account of that. Mark Poulson

24:44

of the Lencat, thanks. You

24:46

know what I'm going to say now,

24:48

don't you? The best investment is to

24:50

listen to the Moneybox Podcast and there

24:52

is no charge or you can listen

24:54

live when we broadcast every Saturday at

24:57

midday on BBC Radio 4 also free.

25:00

If you want a closer look at one Money

25:02

topic then Moneybox Live with Felicity Hannah also has

25:04

a podcast which comes with your subscription. Next

25:07

up as I said, when do you want to retire? Catch

25:10

it live or catch up on BBC Sounds. We'd

25:12

love to hear from you of course about the money

25:15

stuff you think is important or indeed

25:17

scandalous. Email Moneybox at

25:19

bbc.po.uk with your stirring stories. We do

25:21

read them all and you might get

25:23

on the show. In

25:26

this podcast the reporters were Dan Whitworth

25:28

and Sandra Hardial, researcher Joe Krasner, studio

25:30

manager Sam Biddle, our editor is Jess

25:33

Quayle. I'm Paul Lewis and this was

25:35

the BBC News Money and Work production

25:37

for BBC Sounds. I

25:40

think the power of the show was crazy back then.

25:43

The X Factor promised to turn ordinary

25:46

people into pop stars who stood

25:48

there behind the dogs when 16

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million people were about to watch you go on

25:52

stage. And Simon just said actually like, good

25:54

luck girls, good luck. I'm

25:57

Chitty Zendoo. For years I was

25:59

a BBC showboy. journalists who covered

26:01

every twist and turn. I

26:04

want to go behind the scenes

26:06

to find out from staff and

26:08

contestants what it was like. You

26:11

don't just want average people, you want to, you

26:13

know, it was so bad. They were comical. I

26:15

feel like I was humiliated just for the entertainment.

26:17

Did the show ever come back and they said

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to me, Sam, when you come on and do it

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again, I'd be like, what time do you want me? Over

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For BBC Radio 4, this is

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