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bluenile.com, code LISTEN. And

1:30

for the first time, most couples in England and

1:32

Wales who live together are not married or in

1:34

a civil partnership. And that could

1:36

mean financial problems in the future. But

1:39

first, the probate service is cutting

1:41

access to its helpline for three months,

1:43

saying it will divert staff to tackle

1:45

a backlog of cases. When

1:47

someone dies and leaves the property in their own

1:49

name or has significant savings or

1:51

investments, the executors must apply

1:54

for probate. That's a legal document which

1:56

gives them the right to deal with

1:58

the dead person's estate and dis... to

2:00

view their assets. But the time

2:02

taken to grant probate has more than

2:04

doubled over the last three years, from

2:06

an average of around seven weeks to

2:08

fifteen. And some bereaved families have been

2:10

facing delays of nearly a year. Malcolm

2:12

lives in Derbyshire. He had to wait

2:14

almost ten months for probate to be

2:17

granted after his wife died last year.

2:19

I went to my financial advisor and said

2:22

we need to sort the ISA and explain

2:24

what I wanted to do with it. I

2:26

didn't need the cash. But I do have

2:28

a plan because I have four grandchildren and

2:31

I'd like to make sure that they have

2:33

a little chunk of it each. And he

2:35

said we need probate. So I think 20th

2:38

of January last year. And then

2:40

it just progressed from there. And

2:42

you get to September before actually

2:45

they confess that they've lost the

2:47

wealth. The other thing that was

2:49

disturbing was the complacency or

2:52

the lack of empathy from

2:55

the people of the probate service

2:57

about what has happened. Sometimes I

2:59

had emails where you could feel

3:02

the frustration. From the 20th of

3:04

January we go to the 13th

3:06

of November before we get a

3:09

certificate. Fortunately it all ended quite

3:11

well on my grandchildren's bank accounts

3:13

and are a little bit better

3:16

because of it. That's the ultimate

3:18

object achieved. Malcolm, oh,

3:20

we contacted the court from Tribunal Service

3:22

which told us we sincerely apologise to

3:24

him for the delays to his probate

3:27

application. Long delays like

3:29

Malcolm's can cause problems distributing assets

3:31

to beneficiaries perhaps selling property and

3:33

if it's due paying inheritance tax.

3:35

The Society of Trust and Estate

3:37

Practitioners' step is a network of

3:39

legal professionals dealing with estates and

3:42

wealth. It surveyed its members recently

3:44

and found that everyone who responded

3:46

had seen a case of a

3:48

cancelled house sale due to probate

3:50

delays and almost seven out of ten

3:52

said they had seen cases where the

3:54

delays had left beneficiaries in financial hardship.

3:56

What Jo Summers is with us. She's

3:58

a part of the at solicitors'

4:00

juror and a member of SEP. Joe

4:03

Summers, just let's start by saying what

4:05

is probate and who needs it briefly? Hello.

4:08

Yes, probate is, as you said earlier, it's

4:10

the document you need in order to deal

4:13

with the assets of a deceased. If assets

4:15

are in a sole name rather than joint,

4:17

then they're frozen when somebody dies and the

4:19

probate grants authority to somebody to deal with

4:22

those assets. Now, the court

4:24

service gets around 200,000 applications for probate

4:26

in a year. That's only about a

4:28

third of all deaths, so not everyone

4:30

needs it. And that figures remained fairly

4:32

constant, hasn't it? Why is it now

4:35

taking so long? That's

4:37

a very good question. There has been a lot

4:39

of change at the probate registry. They centralised,

4:42

so we used to have about 12 local

4:45

probate registries, and you

4:48

could go to your local registry and speak

4:50

to the registrar. Now it's all centralised. It's

4:52

also mostly digitalised, not all applications, but most

4:54

of them are. And I think just about

4:56

the same time as they were trialling that

4:59

new system, we had a massive spike in

5:01

excess deaths caused by COVID.

5:04

And that wasn't just people with COVID, but people

5:06

who hadn't got treatment for heart attacks, strokes,

5:08

et cetera. And that was

5:11

about a perfect storm really in creating

5:13

this massive backlog of applications. And I

5:15

think at the last count, there was

5:17

something like 50,000 applications in that backlog.

5:20

Wow. Now Katrina got in touch with

5:22

us to say probate delays were affecting

5:25

the sale of two houses owned by

5:27

someone she knew, and they'd been waiting

5:29

months for a certificate. Why

5:32

does a delay cause problems with selling a

5:34

house? You can't complete

5:36

a house sale until you've got that

5:38

probate document. So whilst you could market

5:40

the property, you can send people

5:42

round to have a look, you can't actually sign on

5:44

the dotted line. We tell our clients

5:47

it's best not to start marketing until you've got

5:49

probate because then you know you can go straight

5:51

ahead when you've found your purchaser. But if you

5:53

do market before you've got probate, you will then

5:55

have to do delay and couldn't sign the completion

5:58

documents until you've got the probate document. Yes,

6:00

and of course that's obviously very difficult and you might

6:02

lose the sale as we

6:05

heard from Katrina. But also

6:07

your members said two-thirds of

6:10

them said they've seen

6:12

cases of severe financial hardship

6:14

to beneficiaries. How is

6:16

hardship caused by these delays? If

6:19

you can imagine somebody's died, their bank account

6:21

has been frozen, maybe there's a rental income

6:23

going into it or some other money and

6:25

you can't access that money, you can't use

6:27

it to pay bills, you can't use it

6:29

to pay the utilities, you can imagine what

6:31

financial hardship there is. Now there

6:33

is actually an emergency probate procedure

6:35

if it's extreme hardship, if you've

6:37

literally got no access to money

6:40

and that can be done so it's worth speaking to

6:42

somebody like a step member to see if that's possible.

6:46

But you have to pay tax in your inheritance act,

6:48

if it's due it's only a small minority who pay

6:50

it, but if it's due you have to pay that

6:52

within six months don't you? If you don't probate

6:55

for a year or more than

6:57

six months you're going to be paying interest. That's

6:59

correct and unfortunately HMRC are not

7:02

willing to extend the deadlines for

7:04

the payment of inheritance tax to take into account that

7:06

you may not pay it yet because you haven't got

7:08

probate. Yes and of course they charge interest

7:11

I think seven three-quarter percent at the moment.

7:13

Yeah, as I said the probate office this

7:15

week has closed its helpline every afternoon, it's

7:17

only open in the morning that's for 12

7:19

weeks. That won't help people who

7:21

call will it? Many people must

7:24

call not because they need it but to find out

7:26

if they do. That's correct yes

7:28

and there are other sources of information online,

7:31

the government has quite a lot of information about how

7:33

to deal with an estate on death there, tell me

7:35

one service it's worth looking through those but a lot

7:38

of calls will be to the probate registry to see

7:40

if they do or don't need probate. Yes and

7:42

of course presumably there'll be more in the morning and they

7:44

might have to wait even longer though there is a web

7:46

chat I understand which is open all the time and

7:49

these problems are faced by relatives aren't they because

7:51

they're usually the executors what can

7:53

they do if there's a delay? As I

7:58

said there is a probate application

8:00

which is assessed on its facts if

8:03

there are really extreme circumstances like you've

8:06

sold a property and the person's died before

8:08

they complete it and otherwise

8:10

it's question of loans from banks

8:12

and paying interest on the interest

8:15

and they hate facts. All

8:17

expensive and difficult and very very briefly

8:19

it is being looked at by a

8:21

House of Commons committee just

8:23

in few words what would you like changes

8:25

would you like to see Jo? We'd

8:28

like to see more personnel at the

8:30

probate registry and more senior personnel who

8:33

are able to make decisions on complicated

8:35

legal matters and we'd like to

8:37

see more involvement with the professionals

8:39

to help from that. Jo

8:41

Summers thank you and in response to

8:43

this His Majesty's Courts and Tribunal Service

8:46

told us yesterday that most probate applications

8:48

are processed within 12 weeks and it's

8:50

hiring and training more staff to deliver

8:53

improve further improvements. Most

8:55

people don't know how much if anything

8:58

the charges albeit that what the charges

9:00

are being taken from their pension fund

9:02

and that's the headline conclusion from a

9:05

report by People's Partnership which has been

9:07

shared exclusively with Moneybox. It surveyed a

9:09

thousand people who had transferred their

9:11

pension in the last two years without financial

9:13

advice nearly three out of four of them

9:15

didn't know what the fees were on their

9:17

old pensions or what they were being charged

9:20

for the new one. One in ten apparently

9:22

didn't even know there were charges and of

9:24

course charges can make a huge difference the

9:26

amount you get when you retire. Remini

9:28

is in her late 20s she took part

9:31

in that survey and she told our reporter

9:33

Jo Krasner what happened when she transferred her

9:35

pensions. I actually seen an

9:37

advert for a company and

9:40

I just thought oh that'll be quite useful you know put them all

9:42

in one place I kind of know where they

9:44

are I didn't really do any research I didn't

9:46

really think that there was that many companies

9:48

about or it was a big thing I think

9:50

I was sort of naive to what it actually

9:53

entails. So what happened? Certainly as time

9:55

went on I was sort of aware

9:57

of sort of the percentage and return

10:00

and maybe the company that I went

10:02

with weren't as transparent as I first

10:05

thought. Leading on from that led me

10:07

to do a lot more research on

10:09

sort of pensions and companies and transferring.

10:12

So you did the research after you'd made

10:14

the transfer? I did, yes. And

10:16

how did that turn out by doing it that way

10:19

round? I don't think it went in my favour at

10:21

all. I mean, the option is still there for me

10:23

to transfer, but I would have

10:25

saved myself a lot of time and effort

10:27

if I would have just researched beforehand. But

10:30

then again, I feel like this sort of

10:32

lack of education and knowledge on sort of

10:34

pensions in general, especially sort

10:36

of around my age group, because it was only afterwards

10:38

I did the transfer and I spoke to sort of

10:41

my friends and people like myself. And

10:43

it was like, no one really knew. No one really knew it

10:46

was a thing or knew where to research

10:48

or wasn't aware that there was all these

10:50

companies available. So it's sort of like I

10:52

got grabbed in with this flashy advert and certainly

10:54

afterwards I'm like, okay, maybe that isn't the best

10:56

choice for me. So what are you going to

10:58

do now? I've actually transferred

11:00

my pension again already to another

11:02

company. There was a better return.

11:04

There was a lot more transparent

11:07

that I felt gave me a

11:09

better sort of customer experience. And

11:11

he gave me that reassurance that that company was a

11:13

better fit for what I needed it for. Rimini

11:16

speaking to Joe Krasner. Well, listening to

11:18

that is Patrick. He's chief executive

11:20

of People's Partnership. They provide the People's

11:23

Pension. That's a workplace scheme with more

11:25

than six and a half million members.

11:27

And they come largely through auto-enrollment. Patrick

11:30

Keith-Lay, Rimini took part in your survey.

11:32

She decided to move her pensions without

11:35

advice, but then she had to move

11:37

them again. Was she

11:39

typical of what you found? Hi,

11:41

Paul. Yes, I

11:43

think she is. And actually,

11:46

typical of quite a number of our members

11:49

that we speak to who are considering either

11:51

moving in or out of our scheme. Very

11:54

much underneath this is a

11:56

lack of knowledge amongst people.

12:00

of some of the critical factors. Now,

12:02

just to give some context to that, I think there's

12:04

two main reasons people are looking to move their pensions

12:06

and they're receiving a lot of encouragement to do that.

12:09

But one is that the system of workplace

12:11

pension, when you move jobs, your

12:13

pension stays with your previous employer. They're the

12:15

one that selected the scheme. So

12:18

there's a way to move amongst

12:20

people to move their historic pensions to

12:22

their current provider and an employer. The

12:24

other one is more an encouragement to

12:27

sort of hoover up all their pensions into one

12:29

place and effectively consolidate them.

12:31

It becomes easier to manage, easier to

12:33

think about perhaps what they'll have in

12:35

retirement. The thing that

12:37

came out of the research a lot was

12:39

a lot of assumptions around providers being broadly

12:42

the same and the schemes that they have.

12:44

And an overwhelming driver

12:47

is convenience for people supported

12:49

by sort of

12:51

encouragement from the advertising they've seen.

12:53

And what about charges? Because you

12:55

did find many people didn't even know, some

12:58

people didn't know there were charges and most

13:00

of them didn't know how much they were

13:02

being charged. Absolutely Paul. And as you said,

13:04

70% of people didn't know their charges on

13:06

their scheme or the scheme they were going

13:08

to. And actually 10% of people didn't

13:10

know that charges existed. So

13:12

there's very limited information around

13:15

for people on the fundamentals

13:17

of pension schemes, particularly charging.

13:19

And what difference can lower or

13:21

higher charges make? So

13:24

to bring that to life, average earner in the UK,

13:27

and I mean average earner is around, they're gonna save around

13:29

200,000 over their lifetime. So

13:31

it's not a small amount of money. If

13:33

you make a selection of a scheme and go from a

13:36

scheme that's charging, let's say 0.4% to a scheme that's 0.75%,

13:41

so those numbers don't sound very big, it

13:44

actually makes a difference of around 70,000 pounds in

13:47

the size of pot you might have when you come

13:49

to retire. And that can mean that you have to

13:51

continue working for several more years to make

13:54

up that difference. So it's pretty

13:56

fundamental to the values that

13:58

you'll get. Yes, it's extraordinary. that 0.35%

14:00

that you might think is negligible,

14:04

cost you over 70,000 quid by

14:06

the time you retire. That is quite extraordinary. You

14:09

mentioned these charges, maybe 0.4, maybe 0.75. How

14:13

hard is it to find that basic

14:15

information? It's incredibly

14:17

difficult. We've had a look across, and I think

14:19

we're reflecting on this ourselves, very

14:21

difficult for people to find the information very

14:24

easily on websites. You have to click through

14:26

multiple pages. And then when you

14:28

do find it, you then have this really difficult maths

14:30

challenge to get over. I mean, it is very hard

14:32

doing the maths. Let me ask you about your charge.

14:36

I think you charge 0.5%. Why

14:39

do you do that? Why not a flat fee for the

14:41

work you do? Well,

14:43

we're a little bit different. We're

14:45

a not-for-profit organisation founded for social

14:47

goods, so our charging practice is

14:49

to try and alleviate down the

14:51

impact of charges as you

14:54

accumulate your pension pot. So

14:56

starting at only £3,000, we will start

14:58

to reduce the impact of charging by

15:00

lowering your charge rates. We

15:03

operate through a series of bands that range between £3,000 and

15:05

£50,000. So

15:07

quite nominal in terms of the amount. But it's

15:09

really a reflection of the impact of charging on

15:11

pension pots over time. What would you

15:14

like to see changed? Well,

15:16

I think the industry has to step up

15:18

here. I mean, it's very clear people are

15:20

not well-equipped by us, the

15:22

industry, to really think about what's

15:24

important when transferring. Now, there is help out

15:27

there. Money Help a Service,

15:29

for example, the government does have some information

15:31

on, but I don't think it's as

15:33

succinct as it could be. You

15:35

know, I'd like to see the industry moving much

15:37

quicker to be more transparent and more comparable at

15:39

scheme level. You know,

15:41

we should be publishing standardised information

15:44

that allows people to really understand

15:46

the different schemes out there and

15:48

can help them make that decision. Patrick Heathley of

15:50

People's Partnership. He's got a lot of money. He's

15:53

got a lot of links. And that website, moneyhelper.org.uk.

15:56

And search, pension-wise. Now,

15:59

for the first time, Most couples in England and

16:01

Wales who live together are not married or

16:03

in a civil partnership. New figures from the

16:05

Office for National Statistics show that in 2022

16:08

a fraction under half were married

16:10

or in a civil partnership. Ten years earlier

16:13

it was slightly more than half. But as

16:15

we've said before on Moneybox, if you live

16:17

together in canubial bliss but without being wrapped

16:19

in that marriage blanket there could be financial

16:22

trouble ahead. I reported Anne Witt was spoke

16:24

to married couples at a service station on

16:26

the M6. Paul from

16:28

North Wales. Who's

16:30

this? This is Coral. And how long have you two

16:32

been married? Five

16:35

years. Seven years. Important

16:37

question, important question. I

16:39

know that there's benefits to being married for

16:42

tax reasons and stuff so it

16:45

makes sense doesn't it if you're happily

16:47

together then make it easier. Definitely be

16:49

able to benefit from something you would

16:51

want without a doubt. Tom

16:53

Strickland. Sixty six from Corby. You're not

16:55

a mentor. You wear it well Tom,

16:57

you wear it well. And

16:59

who is this and how long have you been

17:02

married or partnered? Marrying, we've been married for 42

17:04

years. I'm an accountant so. Right

17:07

well brilliant I don't need to explain anything to

17:09

you then. Tell me your thoughts on it then

17:11

please. What do you think about the fact, you

17:13

obviously get those rights as a married couple but

17:15

not if you're living together. Your thoughts please. Yeah

17:17

well sometimes it's worth getting married just for that

17:19

reason isn't it really. I think some of our friends

17:22

actually got married very

17:24

recently after living together for about

17:26

40 years just for that reason really

17:28

because they were selling their business and yeah

17:31

it was the inheritance tax benefits.

17:33

Should there be that difference? Possibly

17:35

not now nowadays. Why should there

17:38

be? What makes you say that?

17:40

Because a lot of people don't want to get

17:42

married nowadays do they but if they're still committed

17:44

in a relationship and they want to sort their

17:46

money out the way they want to sort it

17:48

should just maybe be across the board really.

17:51

Mark from Liverpool. Steph

17:53

from Liverpool. Mark and Steph are you married are you

17:55

living together or are you just random people who bumped

17:57

into each other here? Marries. How

18:00

long for? 7

18:02

years, really, 8. I'm glad you asked to hear that, mate. It

18:04

should be for love, not for money. It

18:07

costs a lot of money as well, depending on what you want

18:09

to do, like what type of marriage,

18:11

and people try and

18:14

make it bigger and better, and if

18:16

everything's getting more expensive, isn't it? Cussive

18:18

living. Ibrahim, are you married? Are you with someone? Are you

18:20

in a partnership? I'm married. And how long have you been

18:22

married for? 6 years. Couples who just

18:25

live together, they don't get those same benefits. What

18:27

do you think about that? I think it's a

18:29

good incentive for people to get married, but at

18:32

the same time I can understand how it's not fair, and

18:35

I know if I was to live on my own I'd struggle, so it's

18:37

good having my wife with me. The

18:40

inimitable Dan Whitworth finding that married people

18:42

on the M6 at least do seem

18:44

to know there are financial benefits from

18:46

marriage, even if it's love that keeps

18:48

them together. Anna Tain, this personal

18:51

finance analyst at Best Invest, she explained the

18:53

not so romantic, but important

18:55

tax advantages of marriage. So

18:58

couples and civil partners can transfer assets

19:00

such as cash, investments and property between

19:02

them without facing tax charges. It

19:05

means couples can maximise two sets of

19:07

allowances, such as the personal savings allowance

19:09

applied to interest on cash savings, or

19:12

their combined £40,000 ISO allowance. Married

19:15

people stitching investments or cash between them to

19:17

fill up answers, for example,

19:19

won't face any capital gains tax or

19:22

inheritance tax implications. And

19:24

don't forget about the annual marriage allowance, where

19:26

a lower earner can transfer part

19:28

of their annual tax-free personal allowance to

19:31

their spouse or civil partner to create

19:33

a tax saving. It might not sound

19:35

romantic, but it makes financial sense. Well,

19:38

those are the pluses, but what

19:40

about the minuses of living together

19:42

in unmarried bliss? Melinda Giles is

19:44

a partner at Solicitor's Giles Wilson

19:46

Law. Melinda

19:49

Giles, most couples live

19:51

together now without legal protection. What's the

19:53

biggest financial risk they run? The

19:56

biggest financial risk is in terms of if

19:58

they were to break up. During

20:01

their lifetime and. One party

20:03

owned the property, for example, And

20:05

the other didn't. The on the path

20:07

partner who didn't own the property would

20:09

have very little rights. potentially. I said

20:11

that property and their home. Is.

20:14

And of course a lot of marriages

20:16

break up. never mind unmarried couples that

20:18

they have a motor boats and in

20:20

one of them dies because as the

20:22

that does happen. That can be pretty

20:24

catastrophic. We've already spoken about the inheritance

20:26

tax implications which much worse. But there's

20:29

also the fact that is an unmarried

20:31

person dies without to will then were

20:33

subjected to the test to see bills

20:35

which would give them their rights at

20:38

all potentially without claiming in called a

20:40

dependency claim for. Example: Yes, you actually

20:42

gonna come to court or selfish, right? You

20:44

get nothing automatically. Marriage and indeed, civil partnership

20:46

give you automatic right. So it's important thing

20:48

if you're not married, you may or may

20:50

not get them and you may have to

20:53

spend money and and worry a lot about

20:55

it. A lot about people who are living

20:57

together who are listening. Who said rent? Maybe

20:59

the mortgage payments? What should they be thinking

21:01

about to make things. Better for it

21:04

is better to talk about this

21:06

and perhaps take legal advice at

21:08

the outset. Will have not very

21:10

romantic but a cohabitation agreement can

21:12

define the riots. If if you

21:14

and differing shares will have club

21:16

contributed differently to the ownership the

21:18

property you can have a declaration

21:20

of trust that defines what you

21:22

expect. If the great relationship breaks

21:24

down in terms of society of

21:26

the property. People do finds

21:28

it difficult loot and consists when they're

21:30

getting together disabled I gonna be that

21:32

just isn't alone Document here for you

21:34

to sign always will go to to

21:36

solicitous that do you think that's really

21:38

important A particular assets. I think it's

21:40

hugely important and hopefully they find it easier

21:42

than that the time they're breaking up and

21:44

so that's definitely. The the time to do

21:46

hits know this is definitely not of of

21:48

course some people think that they they did.

21:51

We live together for long enough. maybe we

21:53

have children with some they often cool. it's

21:55

it's of common law marriage. Yes, there is no

21:57

such thing as a common law marriage. If you have

21:59

children, The the landscape is slightly

22:01

different, potentially young children and it's also

22:03

important as you've mention this no difference

22:05

between civil partnership a marriage that go

22:08

make your decision as to how you're

22:10

going to live with somebody with the

22:12

knowledge I the test. My biggest tip:

22:14

the as. And if there are children, much

22:16

more complicated. It. Can be much more complicated

22:18

but also you really do want to ensure

22:20

that you know your rights and how you

22:22

would end up finance lanes in any scenario.

22:25

Yes you have some sort of prepare

22:27

for the worst critics and we talked

22:29

before and the program about and that

22:31

the benefits now that a given that

22:33

the them with bereavement payment that is

22:35

given to parents who on marriage and

22:37

if one of them dies doesn't supply

22:39

of course if you don't have children

22:41

does it know not to. Know

22:43

so the is that some the i mean that would be

22:46

four thousand three hundred pounds if you if you have marriage

22:48

that nothing if you're not an and. Similarly, potentially

22:50

with pension rights or destined service

22:52

benefits, there's often the opportunity to

22:55

nominate those in say that somebody,

22:57

but you have to take positive

22:59

steps to benefit your partner. Right?

23:02

If you're married or single upon the

23:04

that would happen automatically be. did you

23:06

know Chalet said you can nominate a

23:08

partner young later? Yeah, I'm and and

23:10

just sort of stuff. Finally and they

23:12

will be people listening that couples they

23:15

don't wanna get married or partnered that

23:17

doesn't suit them, just not briefly. What

23:19

should they do? Well

23:21

they they should talk about what would happen

23:23

if one of them died and make a

23:26

will the Saturn look at the nomination so

23:28

death benefits and sadly they should also talk

23:30

about the possibility of breaking up. I'm what

23:32

they were once for each other. Especially.

23:35

The have a set. Thank you for us

23:37

to salvage Hilton as it is tough of

23:39

the have dealt with Hello Thanks Now the

23:41

Ministry of Justice has it is reviewing the

23:44

law the round Marriage and divorce and then

23:46

after that it will look at everything couple

23:48

so no changes a minute and I should

23:50

has that. The inhabitants and separation rule for

23:52

unmarried couples though not the tax rules are

23:55

slightly different. and in Scotland on Wednesday Felicity

23:57

Hannibal be here with Money Box Live Looking

23:59

for the. Between the finances of

24:01

parents who are separating, always a

24:03

difficult time, especially when there are children.

24:05

So how do you make sure

24:07

money and possessions and housing entity care

24:10

of children are split fairly? Send

24:12

your questions experiences to our experts, many

24:14

books that Bbc.cove.e K and emails coming

24:16

in on this stance here. Then. We'll.

24:19

Have a told us how her dad

24:21

died mid December, Nineteen Ninety Seven Probate

24:24

Granted the following month a mom died

24:26

last year and it took fourteen weeks

24:28

or so. Pages in many areas of

24:30

public administration are working well. those are

24:33

the less one on tax breaks for

24:35

married couples but not cohabiting ones. Martin

24:37

said, simply, the law needs to catch

24:39

up with society indeed. Or The Money

24:42

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