0:02

Welcome to Money Matters , the podcast

0:04

that focuses on how to use the money you have

0:07

, make the money you need and save

0:09

the money you want . Now here

0:11

is your host , ms Kim Chapman

0:13

.

0:14

Welcome to a new edition of Money Matters . I am

0:16

your host , Kim Chapman , do you play

0:18

the lottery , hoping to win the jackpot

0:20

of a lifetime ? Picture this

0:23

you've just checked your numbers and bam

0:25

, you're a winner . You're on tight

0:27

because winning the lottery or coming into

0:29

sudden wealth is just the beginning of

0:31

what can be a wild and crazy ride

0:34

. What should you do first ? How

0:36

do you avoid becoming one of those statistics

0:38

that say seven out of ten people

0:40

who win the lottery become broke in

0:43

just a few years ? That's

0:45

crazy . You wait all these years

0:47

, you play the lottery , you win millions

0:49

and you could go broke

0:51

. Well , we're going to make sure that doesn't

0:53

happen . Joining me today is

0:56

attorney Kurt Panouses to discuss how to navigate a lottery winning

0:59

or sudden death . I'm sorry , not

1:01

sudden death , sudden wealth . Thank

1:04

you for joining me , Kurt .

1:05

Good morning . Thank you , Kimberly . I'm glad

1:07

to be here with you today .

1:09

Tell us a little bit about you , your practice

1:11

and how did you transition into focusing

1:13

on basically navigating

1:16

, winning big

1:18

winfalls and people that come into sudden

1:20

wealth . What's an unusual focus

1:23

for an attorney .

1:24

Yes , and I'm very

1:26

lucky . You know you talked about winning the lottery

1:28

. I just happened to do

1:32

something at a certain time in my

1:34

life , my career , that just allowed

1:36

me to focus in on it . So my

1:38

background really started out County

1:41

major that became a CPA , worked

1:43

for seven years in public accounting , the

1:45

last couple of years or with a firm called Price

1:48

Waterhouse , one of the what was called a big egg

1:50

firm , a CPA firm just doing tax work for

1:52

them , and I developed

1:54

a sense of humor and you can't really be a

1:56

CPA with a sense of humor . So

1:59

I went into law school and came

2:01

out and practiced law for basically

2:04

35 years now , and

2:06

over the last five years I

2:09

kept getting calls from people who

2:11

had won lotteries because I posted

2:14

some of these wins on my website

2:16

. And then it turned into well

2:18

, maybe I should focus in on it . And

2:21

the next thing I knew I was

2:23

being brought in as a I

2:25

guess , an expert , for lack of a better term

2:27

. But we have to remember X is an unknown

2:29

quantity and Pert is a drip

2:31

of water in Greek , so but anyway

2:33

, I was brought in to

2:35

help people and I was brought in

2:37

to be an expert with ABC News

2:39

and NBC on the Today Show

2:41

and all that . And as I posted these

2:44

interviews , I found

2:46

out that I was getting calls all over the country

2:48

to help people and I just said

2:50

, well , maybe I should focus in on this . No one else

2:52

is doing it . So I've kind of made it the focus

2:54

of my practice now and , even though

2:56

I'm based in Florida , I

2:59

help people all over the country that

3:01

have major lottery wins and

3:03

basically I'm there and my focus is

3:06

to make sure that they set up a

3:08

plan . This

3:10

is so important for winners today

3:12

to have a plan in place . We

3:15

just got done with watching a Super

3:17

Bowl on TV and I can guarantee

3:19

you both coaches had a plan that all

3:21

their players bought into . And

3:23

it's the same thing with going to the lottery

3:25

office to claim one of these big tickets . You need

3:27

to have a plan and that plan needs

3:30

to have some tax influence . That plan

3:32

needs to have some legal influence and

3:34

that plan certainly needs to know who the individuals

3:36

are . And as a state planning

3:38

probate attorney for all

3:40

those years , I realized I developed

3:42

a lot of those characteristics . There's

3:45

a wealth transfer In this case it's

3:47

coming from the state lottery and

3:49

you're trying to help an individual

3:51

decide who and his or her family

3:54

should also be involved , because taxes

3:56

are involved . This is

3:58

, I tell clients all the time

4:01

this is the single

4:03

biggest financial decision

4:05

you will ever make in your life and

4:07

you only have one chance at it . Generally

4:10

, because most people don't win the lottery twice

4:12

and I have had a couple clients that that's

4:14

happened to but basically

4:16

this is that big chance to do financial

4:19

planning , not only for your life but if done

4:21

correctly , if the amount is significant

4:24

enough , it will be for generations

4:26

to come . You can take care of your children and grandchildren

4:29

as well with one good

4:31

decision right now . And so having

4:33

the experience I found has

4:35

helped me get these people across

4:38

the finish line , get them into

4:40

the end zone in the fourth quarter or

4:42

an overtime to win this game

4:44

of life for them . And

4:46

so I put everything together the background

4:49

as an attorney , the background as a CPA

4:51

, accounting , tax and

4:53

what's nice about it is because of that

4:55

I am a one person

4:58

show . I don't need to bring in

5:00

an accountant to help us . I don't need

5:02

to bring in a law firm

5:04

to help us with the documents . I don't need to bring

5:06

in a tax attorney to help us with the

5:08

tax planning . I can look up

5:10

the lottery laws in the individual states , know

5:13

what we're supposed to do , put a plan together . It

5:15

takes two to three weeks to do this , but

5:18

we keep the circle of people that know very

5:20

, very small . And keeping the

5:22

circle small of who knows , and doing

5:25

it in an anonymous way which is really

5:27

my focus , I think , is the

5:29

best way and the only way to keep

5:31

people from financial ruin , because I think

5:33

anonymity is the key

5:36

in doing all this work , to

5:38

having a life after winning

5:40

the lottery . It may be somewhat

5:43

of a lonely life in the sense that you're

5:45

not going to be walking down the street saying , hey , I'm

5:48

the multi-millionaire , I'm doing this , but

5:51

you'll enjoy your life and we'll

5:54

try to do whatever we need to do to keep people

5:56

from understanding who

5:59

you are and how you came across your money

6:01

. Again , once

6:03

someone wins , there's the claiming

6:05

process and then it's

6:08

life after the claim . We

6:10

want to make sure that any houses that

6:12

we buy are in Land Trust so that no one knows

6:14

who the owner of the house is if they look it

6:16

up . All these things come into play

6:18

generation skipping , tax planning . Again

6:21

, I can handle all that stuff , or make

6:23

sure I at least review it for the client

6:25

, so that the client , who's never had experience

6:27

with this kind of wealth issue , knows

6:30

that hey , there's someone there in their court

6:32

helping them through the process . That's

6:35

what I want to be , is I want to be the quarterback

6:37

for these people and help them through

6:39

the Super Bowl and get them to win .

6:43

Let's take it back to just even the basics . You just

6:45

won the numbers and hopefully

6:47

you don't have a heart attack and pass out . But once

6:49

you realize that you could be a multi-millionaire

6:52

billionaire , what are the first steps

6:54

you should do after discovering that

6:56

you are going to win a large sum of money ?

7:01

That's the number one question for everyone

7:03

, the one thing that you

7:05

have to give some consideration to and I know

7:07

it's the hardest thing for someone that's

7:09

holding this little piece of paper in their hand Do

7:13

I sign the back of the ticket ? I

7:15

think that that's their first question . Every

7:17

single state lottery has on their

7:19

lottery information sign

7:22

the ticket , sign the ticket , sign the ticket . People

7:24

you talk to say sign the ticket . The

7:27

problem with that is is

7:29

that doesn't give me

7:31

, as the planner , the

7:33

ability to really do a deep

7:36

dive into the state lottery laws

7:38

of that particular state , to see what

7:40

the rules are , what the regulations are

7:42

, and then to talk to the individual

7:44

and say , hey , you want

7:46

a billion dollars . You're

7:48

probably not going to need a billion dollars

7:50

, even if you live a lavish lifestyle . So

7:54

who are you going to want to include ? They're

7:57

going to say , well , I have children , grandchildren , brothers

7:59

or sisters , parents , whatever . Then

8:02

what I like to do is I

8:04

like to , over a period of time

8:06

, keep asking them questions

8:08

to find out how serious

8:10

they are , what they really see

8:13

their life looking like a year

8:15

from now , after they have this wealth , so

8:17

that I could paint a picture , because

8:20

I want to have a clean slate so

8:23

that if I wanted to paint anything

8:25

on this canvas , I can do anything

8:27

. If they sign the name on the back of

8:29

the ticket immediately , that may

8:31

hinder what I want to do or what

8:33

I want to do for them . So I

8:36

tell people I know it's hard

8:38

, but please don't sign the back of the ticket

8:40

, don't mark the ticket in any way . Take

8:42

a good picture of the front of the ticket

8:45

and the back of the ticket , because that's all I

8:47

or anyone would ever need to help them . I

8:50

tell people , as corny as this may

8:52

be , maybe put the ticket next

8:54

to your face and take a selfie of your

8:56

face and the ticket so that way we can clearly read

8:58

the numbers that you had that particular

9:00

winning ticket in your possession on this

9:02

particular date February , march

9:05

, whatever the date might be that you had

9:07

the ticket in your hands and in possession and

9:09

then make a copy of the front and back of the ticket and put

9:11

the ticket in the safest place you know . I

9:14

say go to a financial institution

9:16

and put in a safe deposit box . Be careful

9:18

, because the paper is very thin . Depending

9:21

on what you do with the ticket , it could fall apart

9:23

. I've seen lots of issues with tickets

9:25

so . But I just say don't sign

9:27

the back of the ticket , take a copy , take

9:30

a picture , put the ticket in a safe place

9:32

, don't tell anyone and then

9:34

call some professional to help hopefully

9:36

me but call some professional to help you with

9:38

the process and go from there . If

9:40

you absolutely cannot live

9:43

with yourself and you have

9:45

to sign the name , I would say

9:47

leave room on the top of your

9:49

name , because most state lotteries allow

9:51

. They will take the first name on

9:53

the back of the ticket . So write your name very

9:55

small on the back of the ticket , on the lower

9:58

part of it , so that way the attorney

10:00

can put all the basic information depending

10:02

on how you're going to claim it . Again , I

10:05

like to take a look at the Lottery

10:07

Act of the state , look

10:09

at the laws of the state . I like

10:11

to look at who the client

10:14

is thinking about helping , because

10:16

they only have one chance at this . So

10:18

I want to paint the right picture for them , put

10:20

the plan together . Again

10:22

, I look at something I kind of call it goals

10:25

on results oriented . So

10:28

that's why I asked them where do you want

10:30

to be a year from now ? How do you see your life

10:32

a year from now , and so

10:34

I want to incorporate that in . So I like

10:36

a blank slate on the back . So first

10:39

thing I tell people don't sign

10:41

the ticket . Make a copy , have a , take a picture

10:43

of you and your face holding the

10:45

ticket next to you and put the ticket in

10:47

a safe place and then try to keep

10:49

the circle of people that knows as

10:51

small as possible and start

10:53

thinking about where you want to

10:55

see your life a year from now . And that's

10:58

really what an attorney should be helping

11:00

you with .

11:01

You mentioned not to tell anybody . You

11:03

know I'm pretty good at keeping a secret , but I

11:05

cannot imagine how

11:07

hard it would be to just walk around

11:09

with that information in my head . So is there ? If

11:12

I'm married , should I ? Am I

11:14

even required to tell my spouse ? Or

11:16

are there people you're required to tell ? And

11:18

are there people maybe that are just red flags

11:20

? You definitely should not .

11:23

Well , you don't have to tell anyone . First of

11:25

all . That's number one . Number two

11:27

I think it's prudent to tell your

11:29

spouse . You know , obviously , if

11:31

your marriage is having some issues , you

11:34

may want to discuss it before you

11:36

tell your spouse , like I had , every state's

11:39

different with laws as far as separation

11:41

. I did have a client out

11:44

in California , which is a community property

11:46

state . When we looked at the law out there

11:48

it basically said , yeah

11:50

, if you're already separated , you're not divorced

11:52

, but if you're separated , that's

11:54

the day of separation of assets . So

11:57

I told the person you're

11:59

holding a winning ticket . You likely , if

12:01

you do this right , you know , can keep

12:03

your spouse out , even though you're still legally married

12:06

, but you're not divorced yet , but you're

12:08

separated . So you know

12:10

, I think telling your spouse is still a good thing to do

12:12

I wouldn't tell anyone else . And

12:15

if I did tell someone else , or wanted to tell

12:17

someone , because I wanted to bring them in and

12:19

you know this , that's also a big issue , because

12:21

I had a client who who wanted

12:23

to help his brothers and he

12:25

he said , well , you know , I want to give them

12:27

, you know , five or $10 million each

12:29

. And I said , well , if you give them that kind of money

12:32

, it would be considered a gift and

12:34

it would have gift acts associated with it . So

12:36

maybe if we incorporate them in

12:38

the wind as part of the trust or

12:41

a small percentage , we can get

12:43

them the same money . But before

12:45

we do that let's send out a non-disclosure

12:47

agreement . And so we actually sent out

12:50

a non-disclosure agreement for

12:52

them to sign and send back with

12:54

attorney representation , and

12:56

I called the meeting as to why we were

12:58

meeting , and actually the brothers thought

13:00

that their , their brother , was sick and was dying

13:03

and that's why the meeting was being called . But

13:05

it was really being called to find out how

13:08

stable their relationships were with their

13:10

, with their spouses . Because I insisted

13:12

to say , hey , before before

13:15

we give them money or put them

13:17

on the ticket , let's not surprise

13:19

them with it , because that surprise your

13:21

surprise might be just a

13:23

horror story for them . So when

13:26

we got them both on the phone , one

13:28

had already been separated but didn't tell anyone

13:30

anything about it , and the other one had been

13:32

living apart but never got divorced

13:34

for like 10 years . And so you

13:37

know we had to restructure what we wanted

13:39

to do to get them the money that

13:41

the brother wanted them to have . So

13:44

tell your spouse if your marriage

13:46

is in good shape . You're not separated

13:48

, obviously . But really try not

13:50

tell anyone else . Some people tell their

13:52

adult children . Again , depending

13:55

on the dollar amount , if you went a million dollars or

13:57

two million dollars , probably not

13:59

that big of a deal , but you went a hundred million

14:01

dollars or a billion dollars , it's a big

14:04

deal and we should talk about it first .

14:06

Now , I mentioned , I'm good at keeping secrets

14:08

and the only time that I actually get a lottery

14:10

ticket is when it's like what ? A billion

14:13

dollars ? Because 40 million obviously

14:15

isn't enough . And you know we do those office

14:17

pools . So what happens when you have an office pool

14:19

? So you've got 10 people that have put

14:21

into this lottery ticket and they've just won

14:24

. I may keep it a secret , but what about

14:26

the other nine ? What kind of issue are

14:28

we faced in ?

14:29

Well , there's been lots of litigation

14:31

on these office pools , and

14:34

what I tell people first off is , when

14:36

you're talking about an office pool , the

14:38

word there that's important is cool and

14:42

, as we all know , pools have

14:44

a shallow end and they have a deep end

14:46

, and if you could call it that deep

14:48

end , it could be disastrous . So

14:51

the problem with office pools is there's

14:53

always someone that got left

14:56

off . Or you had been doing

14:58

a lottery pool for a while

15:00

and went on for like 10

15:02

weeks while the jackpot was getting bigger

15:05

, and then one day someone doesn't

15:07

show up to work because they're sick or

15:09

they're out of town on business , and so

15:11

they don't physically put in the money , or someone

15:13

doesn't put in the money for them , and

15:16

so now they're left off . Or

15:18

each drawing

15:20

is that a new office pool ? In other words

15:23

, you buy 20 tickets for the

15:26

office and one

15:28

of the tickets wins $10 . Well , what happened to

15:30

that $10 ? Did that get disseminated to everyone

15:32

50 cents each ? Or did

15:34

they say we're rolling it over , so they

15:36

roll it over and they roll it over , and then someday

15:38

someone doesn't put in their $10

15:41

. And so they're left out , and

15:43

so there's plenty of litigation on

15:46

those issues . Normally , what happens

15:48

is that person that gets left off or

15:50

isn't included that gets angry

15:52

. They will file some

15:55

lawsuit that puts a hold on all the

15:57

funds and so no one gets any of the money

15:59

. They eventually , in almost every case

16:01

that I've seen there's several cases

16:03

that are posted on that , but

16:06

almost always they eventually get

16:08

something in settlement and in

16:10

the meantime everyone didn't

16:12

have access to the money for three years . So

16:14

if you're going to have it off of school

16:16

, have some rules

16:18

, have everyone sign off on it , make

16:21

sure that there's full disclosure of the

16:24

tickets that are bought for that night and

16:26

who's included only , and

16:28

make sure that it's really documented

16:31

. Well , you know , that's

16:33

my only suggestion . I don't like them . I

16:35

think that there's always someone that gets

16:37

left off , that gets hurt , and

16:40

once they get hurt they find an attorney

16:42

, and if there's a hundred million

16:44

dollars sitting out there , you're going to find an attorney

16:46

that will represent you .

16:48

So I think my takeaway is I need to leave a $10

16:50

bill in my drawer just in case I'm absent one

16:52

day and they're going and they're doing a lottery

16:54

pool at the office or and

16:57

or make sure that the rules say that you

16:59

can have a surrogate , but you each

17:01

person has a surrogate to put money into it .

17:03

So that way , if you're absent for that

17:05

day , your surrogate has agreed to

17:07

put in money for you . So that way you're included

17:09

and you do the same for them .

17:11

Wow , it really gets technical . So what

17:13

are some different options for claiming

17:15

the lottery and how do how do they

17:17

each affect your taxes and financial planning

17:20

Also very important and

17:22

Unfortunately I've

17:24

had some of these issues that came up and

17:27

their heartbreaking issue .

17:29

I got a call and not too long ago

17:31

, from a young lady who there

17:33

was a 30 , some million dollar

17:35

lottery in her states that the

17:38

opportunity To claim

17:41

it you know every state has rules and the

17:43

opportunity to claim it after six

17:45

months . It was you're

17:47

out of luck and Because

17:50

she won and because she was so scared

17:52

, she didn't tell anyone and

17:54

she kind of put the ticket away and

17:57

then moved , because you

17:59

know that was her part of her plan is I

18:01

will move first and then I'll

18:04

go in to claim it and get some help

18:06

with it . That's what she was thinking . Because

18:08

of that , the six months went by and

18:11

Then she lost the ticket and

18:13

so there's a 30 million

18:15

dollar lottery win that

18:18

went unclaimed and she was calling

18:21

me to see what can I do and

18:23

unfortunately , most states

18:25

say you need a ticket not not

18:27

every state , but most . For now all

18:29

the states say we need

18:31

to see a winning ticket and you

18:33

need to claim it timely and those

18:35

are basic rules . Now every state has

18:38

different rules about how long you

18:40

have to claim a Mega million Powerball

18:42

or it , one of those scratch off games . So you

18:44

have to look at your state to see

18:46

what the rules are for the individual games

18:48

and then comply , and

18:50

so you know . That's why it's important

18:53

to to act reasonably

18:55

quickly after you notice that you

18:57

have a win , but doesn't have to be done overnight

18:59

and actually Just

19:01

like in a state planning when

19:03

a , a spouse died and I'm

19:05

talking to the surviving spouse and you

19:08

know everyone gives them suggestions

19:10

do this , sell , sell your house , move to

19:12

a smaller house , do this . Do that . I

19:14

always tell clients in the past Let

19:17

the roller coaster come to a stop before

19:19

you try to get out . Okay , and

19:21

the same thing , same thing with with lottery

19:23

. You know , let those initial emotions

19:26

Pass before you

19:28

start acting on it , but don't let it

19:30

go too far . So every

19:32

state has different laws . You have

19:34

to check those things . The

19:36

key also in a lot of states is

19:38

it's many times you have 60 days To

19:41

claim that winning ticket , that Powerball

19:43

ticket or that mega million ticket . You have 60

19:45

days to claim it if you want lump sum

19:48

. If you go beyond 60 days

19:50

, then it's automatically an annuity

19:52

. And what happens is With

19:55

states these days , they can own

19:57

their governments , can only invest in

19:59

certain types of investments

20:02

and Typically a state

20:04

that runs a lot of rates , called an

20:06

enterprise fund . It comes back

20:08

from my auditing days when I did governmental

20:10

audit work my initial early days

20:12

of being a CPA . But

20:14

these Programs that generate

20:17

income , like golf courses and all these things

20:19

, are called enterprise funds within the government

20:21

, and so the investment

20:24

Limitations are typically

20:26

treasuries . So it's important

20:28

to take a look at the treasury rates

20:31

, and most of them use two year or five

20:33

year treasury rates . Today , those

20:35

treasury rates , if you look them up , those

20:37

are like four and a quarter , four and a half

20:39

percent . They may have gotten close to

20:41

five percent in the last year . So

20:43

back in 2020 , 2021

20:46

, those treasury rates were under

20:48

a half a percent , half of one , for

20:50

less that less than half of one percent

20:52

. Now they're four to five percent . So

20:55

those , those treasuries , are what they can invest

20:57

in . So they need , they need to know Okay

21:00

, it's the person taking the lump sum , or do we

21:02

invest this into ? Do annuity to give them

21:04

the 20 or 30 year payout

21:06

, whatever the state laws ? So you

21:09

have a limited period time to make certain decisions

21:11

. You need to act fairly quickly

21:13

, but don't wait too long

21:15

and don't do what that one person did

21:17

that ended up losing 30 plus

21:19

million dollars just because she

21:21

wanted to move and then misplaced

21:24

the ticket and didn't know where it was

21:26

. And yeah , I mean there , she

21:28

was sad she's . Luckily she

21:30

had a lot of faith , luckily she

21:32

, you know , had been in the service

21:35

and experienced a lot of things

21:37

and in her time at serving our country

21:39

. But , yeah , it's still still

21:41

heartbreaking when you hear it . But

21:44

that that that decision between

21:46

the annuity and the and

21:49

the lump sum payout is very key

21:51

and many states you only have 60 days because

21:53

of that treasury rate and the difference

21:55

right now is the amount of lump sum

21:58

. You know , I had a client that won over a billion

22:00

dollars in 2021

22:03

, january of 2021 . So

22:05

their , their payout , their lump sum

22:07

payout of that billion dollar ticket was

22:10

like 776 million

22:12

before tax . Today

22:14

, if someone won a billion dollars , because

22:17

of the interest rates , the treasuries being where

22:19

they are and inflation affecting

22:21

basically the interest rates , that

22:23

payout might only be $480

22:26

million . So difference between 780 and

22:28

480 is Just

22:30

a couple of points of interest rates . So

22:33

, obviously , taking a look at your options

22:36

Again , bringing someone

22:38

in with some experience , one-time

22:40

opportunity to do this right . Make

22:43

the most of that opportunity . Yeah , I tell people

22:45

all time . You know there's a lot of good

22:47

quarterbacks that get their teams to the

22:49

to the Super Bowl , but who

22:51

do you want Quarterbacking your team

22:53

? Do you want a Tom Brady ? Do you want a A

22:56

, a Mahomes quarterback unit

22:58

? Or do you want , like a Marcus Mario to

23:00

, who was a Heisman trophy winner but

23:02

hasn't gotten his team ever to a

23:04

Super Bowl ? So you get this one opportunity . You

23:06

want to make sure you put the right team together and

23:09

act with a lot of . You know

23:11

these are . These are decisions that the average

23:13

person that buys a ticket has

23:15

no idea of and you know All

23:17

they start seeing is okay , I can

23:20

have a new house , I can have bill as . I can fly

23:22

anywhere I can . I can help out charities

23:24

. You know all these things change after

23:27

they win . I've had clients that

23:29

have one major amounts of money

23:31

and , unfortunately , the way we do

23:33

it being anonymously , they

23:35

actually have to live kind of like a double

23:37

life . You know I have . I have a client that loves

23:40

to play golf and plays golf almost

23:42

every day , but he had to join

23:45

two country clubs . He , you know he's retired . He

23:47

joined the one exclusive country club that

23:49

only he goes to when he wants to really

23:51

enjoy himself and if his friends come

23:54

in town he goes to , you know

23:56

, and every day , every day person's country

23:58

club and plays there , because

24:00

he doesn't want some friends , even though that he

24:03

won a couple million dollars . So again

24:05

, it could be a very sad life

24:07

, it could be a very quiet life , but

24:10

whatever you do , you want to make sure that

24:12

you have a life and I think claiming anonymously

24:15

and putting a plan together is really important

24:17

than that . I've probably over answered your question

24:19

, I'm not sure .

24:20

So no , you did just fine . So

24:22

what are some common mistakes that lottery winners often

24:25

make , and how can they avoid falling into

24:27

those traps ?

24:28

Well , I think people have a tendency

24:30

, when they know that they won , say

24:32

and I've seen it on TV when

24:35

they talk to people , hey , if you win

24:37

, what are you going to do with the money ? Well

24:39

, they all say , well , I'm going to keep a third

24:41

, I'm going to give a third to my family , I'm going

24:44

to give a third to charities

24:46

or to my church . And

24:48

it's sad because when I've talked

24:51

to people like that after

24:53

they won and we start the process , they

24:56

have a tendency to say , ok , well

24:58

, maybe I don't want to give that much to my family

25:00

, maybe I'm not giving that much to charity . We

25:03

start talking about what are the options

25:06

to take care of charity . There's

25:08

many different ways that you can do charity . A

25:10

lot of these people think they're going to set up a foundation

25:12

and when I tell them that , I say

25:14

well , the foundation requires a

25:17

lot of work , it requires effort , it

25:19

requires people working in a foundation

25:21

, family members , or are you going to do this

25:23

? No , I don't want to do it . I just want to give

25:25

money to it , but I want my family to run it and

25:28

control it . Well , it requires requires

25:30

tax returns , it requires someone

25:33

taking a look at the investments . It requires a

25:35

distribution every year of so much this

25:38

percentage . And so a lot of

25:40

people , I think they start talking

25:42

this game of what they're going to do

25:44

and they get so far ahead of themselves

25:47

that they don't know how to come back

25:49

from it . And so

25:51

then they find themselves victims of

25:53

their own exuberance and

25:55

they just say , ok , well , I'm going

25:57

to do this , I'm going to do this , and then , before you

25:59

know it , they've not

26:02

put a plan together , they've not followed that

26:04

plan and they find themselves in

26:07

a financial position that they didn't expect

26:09

and they think money is going to get them

26:11

out of it . Well , a lot of times

26:13

money doesn't fix things , and

26:15

I learned that through my proxy

26:18

law with a couple of law firms that wanted

26:20

to do things a certain way and I objected

26:23

to it and they ended up after I left

26:25

going the wrong

26:27

way and ended up disseminating

26:29

. So I

26:31

think if someone was

26:33

to follow a proper plan

26:35

, if they win over $10

26:38

million or so , if they can

26:40

live with an ability

26:42

to spend 3% to 4%

26:44

and not touch the principal

26:46

, I think that they would be living a

26:48

nice life . If they start spending more than

26:51

3% or 4% , I

26:53

think they're going to find themselves in a difficult

26:55

position at some time in the future because they're

26:58

overspending . And the other thing I tell people is

27:00

no major decisions

27:02

financially for six months

27:04

. Let's get through the first six months

27:06

and see where we are . And

27:09

, yes , you can pay off your mortgage . Yes

27:11

, you can get yourself a new car I'm okay with that

27:13

but nothing else . Maybe pay

27:15

off a couple of credit cards if

27:17

you have them , but do nothing else for

27:19

six months . No major purchases

27:21

, no major gifts to anyone . Let's

27:24

six months go by and see where we're at and

27:27

then after that you can

27:29

probably put a plan together for the next year

27:31

and do a lot better . So

27:33

I think just that over

27:36

exuberance , sometimes thinking

27:38

that you're multimillionaire , that you can

27:40

do everything and change your life , I

27:42

think really gets people in trouble . So

27:45

again , stay with the plan . Let's

27:47

go six months , no major purchases . Let's

27:50

get on a plan that we're spending 3%

27:52

or 4% of the winnings every year because hopefully

27:55

the investments there conservatively

27:57

to get them that 3% or 4% , and

27:59

at the end of the year it's like

28:02

the year went by and I

28:04

still have all my money and I'm in good shape

28:06

because I've learned .

28:08

Has it been difficult to get your clients to

28:10

agree to that six month rule ? Because we

28:12

have water cooler conversations and that's

28:14

all people talk about is I'm going to go buy a new house

28:16

, I'm going to buy a jet , I'm going to buy a car , I'm

28:19

going to buy this and that . So to have to restrain

28:21

yourself for six months just seems almost

28:24

outrageous . So is that a pretty easy task

28:27

, or is it something that makes your job a little bit more

28:29

difficult to keep them reined in

28:31

and holding on to that money for that time

28:33

period ?

28:34

You know , a lot of it has to do with the amount of money

28:36

that they want . Someone wins a couple

28:38

hundred billion dollars . It's going to be real

28:40

hard for me to convince them that

28:42

it might be a good idea to stay at their job . So

28:46

a lot of people say , well , I'm going

28:48

to quit . Or I've

28:50

had people that have won 500 million that

28:52

say I love my job , I'm going to stay at my job

28:54

. And I'll tell them listen , I

28:57

give it three months , tops two months likely

28:59

that you're going to continue to go to work

29:01

and you're going to listen to what your boss

29:03

said to do . Then you're going to look at your bank account

29:05

and say I ain't listening to him anymore and

29:08

I'm out of here . It's life

29:10

. But in the old days if someone

29:12

won a million or two million dollars , that's

29:15

a nice amount of money . That's

29:17

not life changing and you know , we know , we

29:20

know it might need . You might need in

29:22

most states four to

29:24

five million dollars just to retire

29:26

a little bit at this point in time in

29:28

a state of our country right now . But

29:31

I think you win a million or two million dollars

29:33

If you , if you quit your

29:35

job , you lose healthcare benefits

29:38

. Well , if you have a major medical problem

29:40

and you don't have health insurance , today , you

29:42

might find yourself in a very difficult situation

29:45

that you have a million dollars in

29:47

the bank and it's going to go to your medical bills

29:49

within six months , and then

29:51

what do you do ? You quit your job . So it

29:54

depends on the amount of money and

29:56

again , you have to treat that two million dollar

29:59

winner different than the hundred million dollar winner . The

30:01

hundred million dollar has more cushion

30:04

but that's why they need a different

30:06

type of plan than that two million dollar winner , that

30:09

two million dollar winner . The plan for them is

30:11

a lot simpler . It's kind of like all

30:13

right , I have , I have funded my , my

30:16

IRA or my 401k in advance

30:18

, essentially , but I'm not going to touch that

30:20

until I'm retired at the age

30:22

of 65 or 70 . And then I

30:24

have a nice , comfortable retirement a

30:26

hundred million dollar winner . They can retire that

30:29

next week . So again , it depends

30:31

on the amount and it's

30:33

all part of putting that plan together . And

30:35

I tell people listen , I'm here for

30:38

you , I will help you beyond that

30:40

claiming period . But you

30:42

know we need to make sure that

30:44

you're following the plan . The plan worked

30:46

to claim the money . The plan worked

30:48

to get you established and to get your family

30:51

in a good , a good state . Let's

30:53

continue with the plan . Let's not let's not change

30:55

, let's not modify it . I mean , we can modify it to

30:57

some extent , but let's take a look at

30:59

like I just had a client not too long

31:01

ago with a financial consultant that we met

31:03

with and the client

31:05

made $9 million in income

31:08

that year $9 million . And

31:10

then we looked at the whole thing of

31:12

what they spent and they spent $4

31:14

million . They lived a comfortable life

31:16

the whole year , did everything they wanted to do , travel

31:19

everything . They spent $4 million . So

31:21

they made $9 million . They

31:24

spent $5 million of income , left Income

31:27

Forget about the fact that the

31:29

portfolio is still there and

31:31

so we said , okay , is

31:33

there something else that we want to do ? Is there something

31:36

now that we want to change in our life ? Maybe

31:39

it's time to start flying private

31:42

planes , as opposed to getting an airplane

31:44

to fly in first class . Maybe we should

31:46

try that for a year to see if that was

31:48

a good thing or a bad thing . Again

31:51

, having that plan , following up

31:53

on that plan , seeing the results

31:55

of that plan every six months or

31:57

year at a time is extremely

31:59

important to having someone live their life comfortably

32:02

. And again , it all comes down to

32:04

anonymity . As far as I'm concerned . If you're

32:06

anonymous and know those who you are , you

32:09

have less people asking for money . You have less

32:11

people asking for donations . I've

32:13

had clients who , because I'm their

32:15

representative , I get the letters . And

32:18

I'll get a letter from someone out west

32:20

that says hey , I need this money

32:22

for my family . I lost

32:24

my job . I did this . It's a handwritten

32:27

letter . It tugs at your heart

32:29

. You want to help out . And

32:32

so I'll talk to the client and go hey , listen , I got this letter

32:34

from this person . You're probably not going to want to respond

32:36

to it , but this is what it said . And

32:38

then , a week later , a person sends the same

32:40

handwritten letter to me , addressed

32:43

to them , to the winners . But

32:45

I get it and it says well

32:47

, you didn't answer my request , so

32:49

I'm going to take my life , I'm

32:51

going to kill myself because I have nothing to live

32:54

for , and that's

32:56

what people have to live with as winners . They

32:58

get these types of requests from people

33:00

and it's hard to say no , and

33:02

so you don't know if they're real , you don't

33:04

know if they're made up , if it's a scam , people

33:07

become targets , and so you have to

33:09

have someone that shields you from that , and

33:11

that's kind of like what my practices were

33:14

built on .

33:15

So I think the burning question is how

33:17

can you really remain anonymous ? Because

33:19

I know there are some states , such as Louisiana , where

33:22

they will . You know they claim that

33:24

they're required to put your name out there , to publish

33:26

your name . I know some states , you know they allow

33:28

you to stay in the incognito , but in Louisiana

33:30

, if I won the lottery , I would

33:32

want to be anonymous . I would want to be , you

33:35

know , keep that information a secret . So

33:37

how would you be able to help me with that ?

33:39

Well , again , every state has different

33:41

rules and obligation and

33:44

the question really for the state

33:46

is do they have to be transparent

33:48

because of the laws of that state ? And

33:50

in some states it's written into the law

33:52

that you cannot claim

33:55

a lottery as a

33:57

trust or a limited liability

33:59

company or some form of entity . They do

34:02

not allow it . They say that the

34:04

winner must be a natural person

34:06

natural person and that's what it

34:08

says . And you know , obviously

34:10

, if you win a lot of money it's

34:13

a different situation and I always tell people

34:15

that , even in those states where

34:17

it says you have to be disclosed as a

34:19

natural person , let's see if

34:21

we can take some steps to get around that

34:23

. You know , sometimes I don't

34:25

like to , but sometimes I like to put

34:27

a plan together that includes bringing

34:30

in a litigation

34:32

person , a litigation attorney

34:34

, to help us go through the

34:36

administrative law provisions to

34:39

say how important it is for the individual

34:41

to be anonymous . Like , let's

34:43

say , I had someone that won and

34:45

they were in their field

34:48

of what they did and they were

34:50

a deputy

34:53

at a prison , for lack of better

34:55

. You know they were there . Well , the last

34:57

thing you want for that person's safety is

34:59

to disclose that they were a lottery

35:01

winner . When they have to go into

35:03

a prison on a regular basis or they're in law enforcement

35:06

because they could be compromised

35:09

, so for their own safety and the safety of the public

35:11

, you may say , hey

35:13

, this situation is different and

35:17

this is why we need to keep the person anonymous

35:19

. You know , there's no reason that they can't

35:21

play the lottery , but so you have to

35:23

look at the individual circumstances of the individual

35:26

. The other thing is I'm

35:29

looking right now at your Louisiana

35:31

claim form . It's a one-page claim form and

35:34

in the claim form about midway down it says

35:37

I am claiming for a group

35:39

and it says attached form 5754

35:41

. Well , 5754 is an

35:44

IRS tax form and if you

35:46

pull it up and look at it , it basically says

35:48

this person is

35:50

claiming it or this entity might be claiming

35:52

it , but the winners are

35:54

really these people . So that's an IRS form and

35:58

so I think even in those states

36:00

that require the

36:02

person to be a natural

36:04

person that claims it , I believe that there's

36:06

ways to get around that to

36:09

protect at least most

36:11

of the people Like I typically

36:13

act as a representative of the group because

36:15

I am a natural person . So

36:17

I have a document put together for

36:20

the group sign that says

36:22

Kurt is the representative

36:24

of this group and he will claim this for

36:27

us . So I'll

36:29

be the person that will be identified to

36:31

protect the other people in the group

36:33

, because normally says

36:35

only the person that

36:38

gets paid for the group

36:40

or for the trust of the LLC that has to

36:42

be disclosed . So I believe

36:44

that there's ways around . I don't want

36:46

to say around that we're circumventing

36:48

the rules , because we're not . We're trying to play

36:50

within the rules . And this is where

36:52

I always like working with every

36:55

state lottery has a lottery

36:57

attorney who they

36:59

make decisions for the lottery . So as

37:01

the attorney for the group or the attorney for the

37:04

trust , I reach out to that person and say

37:06

listen , this is what we would like to do

37:08

, what are your thoughts on it ? Get

37:10

them involved as we put the plan

37:12

together and , if need be

37:14

, if I can't work

37:16

an agreement out with that person again

37:19

, I'm not going to worry about it . It's a million dollars

37:21

. I'm going to tell the client hey , you don't need to go through

37:23

all these hoops . Just you know the law is what the

37:25

law is . Just go ahead and claim it . But if it's a hundred

37:27

million dollars or billion dollars , it's

37:30

worth taking some extra time to

37:32

see what we can do to make

37:34

sure everyone is okay with our

37:36

plan . In that particular case

37:38

, I might even get the

37:41

litigation attorney to go with me and

37:43

meet with the attorney general's office who

37:45

the attorney that's in charge of lottery and

37:48

gaming to see if we can't get

37:50

them to agree to our plan . And I've

37:52

done that before with certain states to

37:54

keep people anonymous Because , again

37:56

, anonymity is

37:58

the key . Being the plan together to protect

38:00

anonymity is the follow-up .

38:03

Well , as we get ready to wrap up , are there any

38:05

reliable resources or support

38:07

networks that can help individuals navigate

38:10

into this new potential lifestyle

38:12

?

38:13

Yeah , you know , I think that they're . What

38:16

people don't understand is

38:18

the lottery websites that

38:20

they live in they buy their tickets is

38:22

really have some great , great

38:24

materials , but they're hidden , you know . You

38:26

just have to find them . You know , obviously

38:29

, when you look at someone and

38:32

I happen to look at your laws there because

38:34

I knew we were going to be talking Louisiana

38:37

, for instance , has a four and a quarter state

38:39

income tax . Okay , that's four and a quarter . It

38:41

may not seem like a lot , but when you start

38:43

acting on a billion dollars or

38:45

a hundred million dollars , that's a lot of money . That

38:49

would pay the attorney fee . I'm joking . But

38:51

basically , if you're

38:53

in a border area and

38:56

you have the choice of do I go someplace

38:58

like Texas that

39:00

may have there may be income tax free

39:02

to buy my ticket , or do I cross

39:04

the border and go into Florida where

39:07

it's income tax free ? Should

39:09

I try to be buying my tickets there when I get the option

39:11

? Probably that's the number one

39:14

thing , because you don't have to be

39:16

a member of that

39:18

state to buy a lottery ticket . You could be passing

39:20

through them . Buy a lottery ticket , be a winner . So

39:23

you're based on the laws of

39:26

where you're claiming it at , but

39:28

you're also based on the laws of where

39:30

the ticket winning ticket was purchased , so you

39:32

can save some money doing that . But

39:35

look at the lottery website . There's

39:37

always resources . There's always something

39:39

called resources . Every

39:43

state's lottery website has this information

39:45

on it resources or they have

39:47

questions . Go through

39:49

those things . Read through them , because

39:51

that's what I do . That's the first thing I do

39:53

when someone calls me from a state . I pull up their website

39:56

. Go through all these resources

39:58

. Try to look at the lottery act . Every

40:00

state has a lottery set of rules and acts

40:02

and procedures and they're

40:05

hidden in these websites

40:07

, and so you can go there and

40:10

get a lot of information . Outside

40:12

of that , there's always things that

40:15

are written , and not too long ago

40:17

I had a gentleman interview

40:19

me and I was fascinated

40:21

because I was just like when he called

40:23

me , he said , hey , I'm writing a book on

40:25

the lottery and I want to include

40:28

a lot of different topics , but

40:30

he was a hockey

40:33

player , I guess growing up , and so sports

40:35

was important to him . But he wrote this

40:37

book and he sent me a copy of it

40:39

, and while there's a whole chapter

40:41

in the book that's devoted

40:43

to things that I

40:45

discussed with him , which was kind of cool . I

40:48

really , when I went through the book , I found the book

40:50

to be a very helpful

40:53

book in understanding not

40:55

only what the individuals

40:57

go through and some of their

40:59

emotions , but also what

41:01

the states also go

41:04

through as well . And

41:06

so the name of this book is called Winning Numbers

41:08

and it's called the Deep Dive into

41:10

the Lottery and Luck . The paperback I think

41:12

you can get it on Amazon , and

41:14

the author is this guy , jeff Kopetus

41:16

, c-o-p-e-t-a-s . Again

41:19

, that book I thought was really , really

41:21

good . There's a lot of stuff out

41:23

there with the states because

41:26

these scratch-off games . They're

41:28

so confusing for people . I

41:30

get so many calls saying hey , I

41:33

thought I had a winner , but the state's saying I don't

41:35

. I want to have a class action suit , I

41:37

want to sue the lottery . I've played

41:39

for six months and I haven't won . Or

41:41

I bought 10 tickets in a row and none of the tickets

41:44

were winners and it says one out of every five

41:46

tickets and everyone wants to sue the lottery

41:48

, sue the lottery . So

41:50

there's a lot of documentation

41:53

out there for people to read

41:55

up on lawsuits against the lottery

41:57

or whistleblowers . But I think Jeff's book

41:59

did a great job of talking about it . But

42:02

other than the actual lottery act

42:05

and the website and that book , I think

42:07

looking at what your options

42:09

are for past winners

42:12

, looking what did a past

42:14

winner in my state do and

42:16

is there any follow-up on

42:18

their situation Were they disclosed

42:20

? Were they not disclosed Just taking

42:22

a look at the history of your state with

42:25

former winners , I think it's also pretty good .

42:27

Some really good information and , of course , your expertise

42:29

is not just limited to lottery winnings . You

42:32

may inherit money . It could be

42:34

from gambling . There are lots of different sources

42:36

that you can help individuals with . So how

42:38

can our listeners reach you if they do

42:40

come into some sudden wealth and they want somebody

42:43

on their side that can help them navigate

42:45

this winning-win fall ?

42:47

Yeah , that was a

42:49

good point that we really didn't discuss a lot about

42:51

. There's different types of sudden wealth

42:53

and that's

42:55

actually important . When someone

42:57

wins or comes into money , versus

42:59

someone that inherits money

43:01

, it's a different mindset . When

43:05

you win a lottery , you're a little bit more

43:07

apt to say well , it's free money

43:09

. If you have someone that passed

43:11

away that gave you money , you may say

43:13

this is more of a savings . Your

43:16

mindset's a little bit different . I lost someone

43:18

to get this money . I lost a

43:20

family member , so I'm going to be a

43:22

little bit more responsible for this . As opposed to

43:24

oh , the lottery , that's just free money . Or

43:27

someone that sells a business and has a whole bunch

43:29

of money . Their mindset is okay

43:31

, I worked all my life , I

43:34

earned this . I want to still dabble

43:36

in gains and losses and the

43:39

business opportunities . So

43:41

their investment decisions are different , their

43:43

mind frame is different and

43:45

the investment people that work with them need

43:48

to understand that and treat them differently , because

43:50

a lot of these investment groups that come

43:52

into helping these people with large amounts

43:55

they just think , okay , well , we need to generate

43:57

losses to go with the gain . And

44:00

it drives me crazy because

44:02

if I have a client that has $100

44:05

million , I might say hey , listen , you don't

44:07

have to take any risk whatsoever , you'll

44:09

always have your $100 million Live off of

44:11

just basic , basic interests . Do

44:13

that and you'll

44:15

never go through this money . So

44:18

it's a different mind frame and

44:21

their abilities to want to spend

44:23

are different . It's always good

44:25

to make sure you bring someone in with experience

44:27

or the person . You might have

44:29

a really good relationship with an attorney in your

44:31

area and say this is the attorney

44:33

that's going to represent me , but I'm going to tell

44:35

him or her I want to bring in this other

44:38

attorney to be part of our team to

44:40

really help us through the process , and I've done that as

44:42

well . So the way to get

44:44

a hold of me is basically

44:46

obviously , I still have my legal website

44:48

out there , which is curteatpenousislawcom

44:52

P-A-N-O-U-S-E-S . My last name

44:54

, law L-A-W dot com

44:56

. That's one way . But I also

44:58

have a website out there really devoted

45:00

to the lottery , and it's lotterylawyercpacom

45:06

all one word , lotterylawyercpacom

45:08

and that's the one where I really focus

45:10

in on the lottery and what

45:12

I've done in the past and some different

45:14

options for people to help them through the process

45:17

.

45:18

Well , I definitely want to thank you

45:20

. This has been some really good information . You gave me

45:22

a lot to think about , even though I don't buy a lot of lottery

45:24

tickets . So I want to thank you for sharing your invaluable

45:27

information and your expertise

45:29

. And we'll have to have you come back because , of course , there's

45:31

so much more to talk about , like you said , if

45:33

you come into wealth , and there's

45:35

so many other topics to talk about , especially prizes

45:38

. People don't realize that if they win a prize , that there's

45:40

money involved and that nothing in life is

45:42

really free . So we'll have to have you come back . Thank

45:44

you again , Kurt . Thank you so much

45:46

. Lottery

45:52

scams are unfortunately common and scammers

45:54

often target individuals who have recently

45:56

won or are seeking to win the lottery . Here

45:59

are a couple of tips to help you avoid falling

46:01

victim to a lottery scam . First

46:03

of all , verify the legitimacy . Only

46:06

participate in lotteries run by legitimate

46:08

organizations . Beware

46:10

of unsolicited communications . Be

46:13

cautious of emails , letters , phone calls

46:15

, texts claiming that you've won the lottery , especially

46:18

if you've never even entered or bought

46:20

a ticket . Don't pay

46:22

any upfront fees . Legitimate

46:24

lotteries do not require you to pay upfront fees

46:26

. That is kind of key . It's kind of

46:28

you know if it sounds too good to be

46:31

true . It probably is . And

46:33

then finally check out neighborsfcuorg

46:36

or slash financial education to learn

46:38

more on how to use the money you have , make

46:40

the money you need and save the money you want

46:42

.