0:00

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon

0:02

Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Delin. It's

0:05

February 13th, 2024,

0:07

the day before Valentine's Day, for those of you

0:09

who celebrate such things. And

0:12

we are here for part two of

0:14

the two-part series on this amazing book.

0:17

The book is Chosen Path, the memoir, I guess

0:20

originally authored by D. Michael Quinn, but

0:23

edited and annotated by the

0:25

Barbara... Only authored by D. Michael

0:28

Quinn. And we just

0:30

did a simple copy edit and then myself

0:33

and three other annotators annotated the

0:35

entire book. Yeah. So that's Barbara

0:37

Jones Brown, everybody. Barbara, welcome back to Mormon

0:39

Stories. Hi, thanks for having me back. If

0:42

y'all haven't watched the previous episode we

0:44

just released with Moshe Quinn, D.

0:46

Michael Quinn's son, and Barbara, I

0:49

really enjoyed it and the feedback

0:51

so far has been really good. So go check that out.

0:54

I thought it would be really fun to

0:57

bring Sandra Tanner back. The Sandra

0:59

Tanner. Hey, Sandra. Welcome

1:01

back. Okay. Y'all

1:03

know Sandra, she and her late

1:05

husband, Gerald Tanner, were the

1:08

founders of the Utah Lighthouse Ministry. Is that what

1:10

it was called? And for

1:12

decades and decades, they not only sold

1:15

books in Salt Lake

1:17

City, but they did lots of important

1:19

Mormon history and scholarship upon

1:21

whose shoulders we continue to stand. Is that

1:23

fair to say, Barbara? Absolutely.

1:27

Pioneers talking about Mormon

1:29

history, that's for sure. And Sandra

1:32

sold her bookstore and is retired, but

1:34

you know, I reached out to her

1:36

and said, Sandra, we still need you.

1:39

So the other day I

1:42

was just sitting here thinking we need more Sandra.

1:44

It's fine if she decides she needs to be

1:46

retired, but we,

1:48

uh, we still need her light and her wisdom.

1:51

So I reached out to her and said, Sandra, do you want

1:53

to come on Mormon stories? And she said, okay. And

1:58

so I gave her a readiest time. I said Sandra

2:01

your first reading assignment is chosen

2:03

path the memoir because it

2:05

talks a lot about you and Gerald and Barbara

2:08

you'd you want to tell your quick

2:10

story of you were doing a little

2:12

event right with Yeah,

2:15

so we were doing a book signing

2:17

for this book chosen path at the amazing

2:19

benchmark books here in Salt Lake City and

2:22

Sandra stood up and We

2:26

were doing Q&A and I just asked anyone who

2:28

knew Mike Quinn or who had read the book

2:30

to share Send up a share of

2:32

comment and Sandra stood up and of course in

2:34

life Gerald and Sandra and D Michael Quinn were

2:36

can I say? Our ten and me Sandra well

2:38

on the other side of the issues But

2:42

to hear Sandra stand up and say I've been reading

2:44

this memoir and I'm I'm actually starting to

2:46

like D Michael Quinn and discovering that we

2:48

actually had so much in common that I

2:50

never knew about and Learning things

2:52

about him. I didn't know and and starting to like

2:55

this person in spite of their differences

2:58

when he was alive Yeah, and

3:00

since Sanders forgotten more than we'll probably

3:02

ever know collectively we want to

3:05

We're gonna ring every bit of knowledge out of

3:07

her for as long as she's willing to share

3:10

So Sandra welcome back to Mormon

3:12

stories. Yeah And

3:15

and I want everyone to know this is a

3:19

550 page book that

3:22

I got assigned to read And

3:25

I've got all my little notes in

3:27

it of all the different interesting Pages,

3:30

which I won't remember what they all mean without

3:33

looking at them. But at least I get

3:35

it is my book

3:37

is Marked

3:41

so I have well you won't

3:43

be able to see that but there's red lines

3:45

all over everything. I It

3:48

was a It

3:52

was a very interesting read the

3:54

first part of it before he gets really into

3:56

his research Deals

3:59

a lot with his. The family stuff and

4:01

so it's not as applicable to.

4:04

My studies but it was

4:06

interesting getting to see more

4:09

of plan as. A.

4:12

Person in the context of his

4:14

whole life. So.

4:17

It. Was a challenge to

4:20

get through it sets

4:22

but it. It.

4:25

Was interesting to see how. He.

4:29

Was down and the glendale. California area.

4:32

And. I grew up in the San Fernando.

4:34

Valley Area which is just. A.

4:37

Few miles away. so.

4:40

It was cuddle I called home

4:42

weeks reading some of his early

4:44

experience. And Mormonism because I'm

4:46

just a few years older

4:49

than my maybe three years.

4:52

Sir. For few the and forty

4:54

four yards for a forty

4:56

one son three years old

4:58

are so similar kinds of

5:00

experiences growing up in Southern

5:02

California. In Mormonism, Or

5:04

which were good years for me. I. Enjoyed.

5:08

My early years in.

5:11

Southern. California as a born

5:13

and an awesome. His.

5:16

Mom and my family. All

5:18

from Plan Your Stock. So we

5:20

all grew up with a lot

5:22

of. Base knowledge

5:25

of Mormonism. Much

5:28

of words was the Pr version

5:30

or.the. P g the g version

5:32

and it wasn't until later. We

5:34

realized as and our

5:36

version of Mormonism separate.

5:41

So. To see my cursor. Just

5:47

a regular Mormon kid growing up. Was

5:50

instructor for me and and help into saw

5:52

him out as a person. And

5:54

I thought it was interesting reading

5:56

about his mission and then his

5:59

service. The and it was a

6:01

an Air Force or. Army

6:03

he was in Germany and I think

6:06

it was the army and that a

6:08

little rusty Cia is it here the

6:10

So city with intel in intelligence guy

6:12

in the intelligence community which I thought

6:15

was really interested because he tells about

6:17

how you want to go into the

6:19

Cia and the i guess be super

6:22

sleuth. Add those guys

6:24

talk. And was him about. What?

6:27

You have to do when you're at a joint and he

6:29

says. It all up dry. Be a time you're standing

6:31

with somebody face to face and you have to shoot

6:33

him. And for it's

6:36

like ah maybe I wanted to

6:38

for department so it's it's he

6:40

calls it a little different area.

6:42

The Tos is worth. Of

6:46

the struggle city has in

6:48

his. Marriage n though I

6:50

think most people. They

6:52

are that noisy about him or his

6:54

work. Know that he was gay and

6:57

how from a child he knows this

6:59

about himself. And

7:01

yet as a child, He

7:04

is given this promise by was that his

7:06

grandma his grandmother predicts that when it when

7:08

he's nine years of he's my point is

7:10

the kid that every past and testimony meeting

7:13

is getting up and during his testimony

7:15

and us the people in his words personal

7:17

using Crop to bring it be a church

7:19

leaders someday I'll bet and his grandmother when

7:22

he's nine tells them all that you grew

7:24

up to be an apostle and when take

7:26

that very seriously and he spends the rest

7:28

of his life believing he's going to be

7:31

an apostle some day. The

7:33

Army really serious hibs be a comments

7:35

through the books through his. Life of

7:37

that, he's A. He had this.

7:41

Read confirmation of this through different blessing

7:43

see what different people said. The M.

7:46

You know if someone just talks about all

7:48

yoga or you've got great things I had

7:51

a year the church and that all seed

7:53

sense of this believes he has that he's

7:55

been chosen to be an apostle. Some

7:57

day. So this drives him. Through

8:00

his commitment to Mormonism

8:03

to be the ultimate

8:05

Mormon. And. A

8:07

strides so hard to do everything

8:09

required of him. So that's it.

8:11

There's a certain tragedy and the

8:14

story of. His

8:16

desire is to be the ultimate.

8:18

Mormon to be worthy of being

8:20

an apostle. And yet

8:22

he. Has this inner struggle? Saw

8:26

that. To. Be An apostle. You

8:28

have to be married. He can't

8:30

be divorced and. Know

8:32

what the how high up can use of. Be.

8:34

In the church and have a divorce to

8:36

they looked bishops, get divorced, sewers and noom

8:39

yeah. That

8:41

that worse since the divorce was unmarried women on

8:43

and they said but I don't think you can.

8:46

Be a general thirty having been

8:48

divorced them Yeah, well. I've never.

8:50

Heard of any ones. In the

8:52

end, Higher tiers positions.

8:55

Ever Been a divorce person? I

8:57

mean you got widowers that end

8:59

up married again and and have

9:01

been searched polygamous like profit? Leader

9:03

of Mormonism. Today but but not

9:06

forced and so she knows

9:08

he has to keep his.

9:10

Marriage together to fulfill this

9:12

dream. And. Yet

9:14

as you read through a story of

9:16

so sad that is it that. One

9:19

point in the park he talks about.

9:22

He. Was so thrilled after years

9:24

of struggle. That they had

9:26

just had the best. Period.

9:29

Of their marriage ever.

9:32

And. Then his wife tells him. Know

9:35

it was that worst period of

9:38

the marriage as far as I'm

9:40

concerned. And they start

9:42

talking. Of divorce and assist. Quinn.

9:45

Struggles with this because he knows.

9:48

If he divorces it will be the end of

9:50

the dream. Of being an

9:52

apostle someday. But

9:54

he also has other dream

9:56

is to be the ultimate.

9:59

church historian And he wants

10:01

to tell church history faithfully

10:04

for Mormonism, but to answer

10:06

the questions. And

10:10

that's the other theme

10:12

going through the book is the

10:14

struggle he has with

10:17

trying to be faithful on retelling

10:19

of church history and

10:21

not getting trouble with the brethren. Because

10:24

the brethren are always doing pushback

10:27

that you can't say that, you can't

10:29

tell that much, you can't tell that

10:31

part, you can't see that document. There's

10:34

just all these times through his life

10:36

that the leadership is interfering

10:39

or trying to squelch the

10:41

research he wants to do,

10:44

making him edit

10:47

some of the biography and

10:49

writings that he does because they're

10:51

too straightforward

10:53

on telling problem areas.

10:56

He does

10:59

an inside

11:01

look at church hierarchy and how

11:03

the brethren aren't all in agreement.

11:06

And it bursts this bubble of the

11:09

average Mormon that everything's

11:11

done just the

11:14

smoothest board meeting Jew could ever

11:16

have where everyone's in agreement. And

11:18

yet Quinn's writing out, no, they have

11:20

these big disagreements, they don't like each

11:22

other, different ones are saying by their

11:25

back, someone else, they don't like them,

11:27

they don't like their policies, they don't

11:29

like what they say publicly. And

11:32

you have this infighting which gets

11:34

him in trouble as he tries to

11:36

write his different book. You

11:39

have an observation on that part. I

11:42

think you're right on. And

11:44

as copy editor of the book,

11:46

it's interesting. I

11:50

know the themes that came out for me going through this

11:52

again and again and again, and then

11:55

hearing you pick up on the same

11:57

themes. I'm like, oh, great. coming

12:00

out to readers. The origins

12:02

and extensions of power, which are

12:04

both signature books, highly

12:06

recommended. Mormon hierarchy, yeah. It's

12:10

a three-part series. Right, because the financial

12:12

one came third, right? That's right, yeah.

12:15

The, those first two I

12:17

strongly recommend. They were a

12:19

really formative part of my faith journey.

12:22

They were written and published after

12:24

he was actually communicated, correct? Oh

12:27

gosh, they were published by signature books

12:29

before I started, so I don't remember the exact

12:31

years off the top of my head, but. I'm guessing

12:34

they came after. I think all

12:36

three of them came after his excommunication. And

12:39

he was excommunicated as one of the

12:41

September 6th and September of 1993. Yeah,

12:44

yeah. Yeah, those

12:46

are fascinating. And they talk about,

12:49

wasn't there the story of

12:52

Hubie Brown when David O'Mecay was

12:54

getting up there in years wanting

12:56

to rescind the priesthood ban in

12:58

the late 60s? Yeah,

13:01

they've been talking about it for years before it

13:03

finally actually happened, sure. And I think. The

13:06

power dynamics between those who wanted it and

13:08

those who didn't, yeah. And I think with

13:10

the right people out of town, he almost

13:13

got the vote necessary in

13:15

the late 60s to overturn it, but

13:17

then like Harold Lee or whoever came

13:19

back in town and scuttled the

13:21

deal, right? I mean, that's the type of stuff Quinn

13:24

was writing about. Right. To

13:27

be an example here of the early

13:30

on when he gets into

13:34

his studies.

13:37

So in 1966, he

13:40

has a section in his memoirs called

13:43

A Devout Freshman Shakes My

13:45

Confidence. And he tells

13:47

about how he had talked with LeGrand

13:49

Richards, who was an apostle. He

13:53

was back in 1961 and LeGrand

13:57

Richards had answered his questions about.

14:00

post-manifestal polygamy. And

14:03

Quinn felt that he

14:05

had adequately dealt

14:07

with post-manifestal polygamy as

14:09

not being a problem, not being an issue.

14:14

But then in 1966, a

14:17

student comes

14:19

up to him and talks to him about

14:21

the problem he has with

14:24

post-manifestal polygamy. Well,

14:26

Quinn thought he had that all solved, but

14:28

here comes this fellow, Stephen E. Robinson, who

14:31

goes on later to become a professor at

14:33

BYU. Yeah, and he wrote this very popular

14:35

book, Believing Christ. Yeah. Well,

14:38

this is back when Robinson's

14:40

a young

14:43

student, I believe. And he

14:45

comes up to Quinn and

14:48

he says, my

14:50

grandfather was a mission president who

14:52

married two plural wives in Salt Lake

14:55

City 10 years after

14:57

the manifesto. And my family

14:59

has a recommend from one

15:01

of the marriages signed by President

15:03

Joseph F. Smith. And

15:05

so this Robinson is struggling.

15:08

How do you put

15:10

this in the history of the

15:12

church when we were always taught

15:14

that the polygamy

15:18

stopped at 1890? And

15:21

so this gets Quinn interested in

15:23

this topic. Now post-manifestal

15:25

polygamy then goes on to become a major issue for

15:27

him. And he ends

15:30

up writing later a huge article in

15:32

dialogue on post-manifestal polygamy.

15:35

That's a classic. Didn't you

15:37

just list all the post-manifestal polygamy

15:39

marriages that you could find? And

15:42

on this story about Stephen, was

15:45

it Stephen E. Robinson or Elle? Okay, Stephen

15:48

E. Robinson. But he's upset

15:50

because he's in a religion class and

15:52

Mike Quinn is in the class with

15:54

him and the professor is teaching at

15:56

BYU. He says there were no polygamous

15:58

marriages After 18 years. Id and

16:00

if they were they were outside

16:02

mainstream Lds approval on you would

16:05

have been excommunicated after Eighty Nine,

16:07

All of them on. And so

16:09

the Stephen he robbed city success.

16:11

Just not true. My my ancestors

16:13

were mainstream after say soul Lds

16:15

and they were married and in

16:17

in nineteen hundreds of that's makes

16:19

my clean start thinking. Oh,

16:22

what what's going on with this

16:24

post manifest of polygamy was it

16:26

actually going on was sanctioned by

16:28

LD's church leaders as it. For

16:30

quite some time and dempsey he writes about

16:33

that and it's one of the subjects that

16:35

he. Printed. Says okay, we need

16:37

to start talking about this. Taboo subjects

16:40

yeah them for grin

16:42

rights. I was deeply

16:44

disturbed by was Steve told

16:46

me about his grandfather's both

16:48

manifesto polygamous marriages. This didn't

16:50

sit the explanation of Apostle

16:53

Richards and traditional historians by

16:55

Be A H. Roberts and

16:57

Joseph Fielding Smith that people

16:59

added posts manifest. Or polygamy

17:02

without authorization of the

17:04

first presidency. I

17:06

couldn't believe Steve story and

17:09

without indicating my skepticism I

17:11

ask for his grandfather's name

17:13

to. Look it up so that

17:15

he goes and looks up at

17:18

the static illogical library and signs

17:20

the genealogies, seats and verifies they

17:22

are. He took two wives after

17:24

the manifesto that all was true.

17:27

So then Quinn says this. B

17:30

Y U students set me on

17:32

a quest to understand post manifesto

17:34

polygamy and. Every other historical

17:36

claim about the Lds. Church

17:39

made by anti Mormon

17:41

loss. In

17:44

a process, I found

17:46

that traditional Mormon historians

17:48

were denying the existence

17:50

of things that anti

17:52

Mormons could demonstrate, even

17:54

from. mormon sources and i

17:57

felt that this was a

17:59

great vulnerability for the average Mormon,

18:02

I was determined to get to the

18:04

bottom of every historical

18:06

claim made by anti-Mormons and

18:08

do what traditional historians had

18:11

not been doing, acknowledging all

18:13

the evidence and still come

18:15

up with an explanation that was

18:19

both honest and reassuring

18:21

for believers. And

18:23

this was in 1960, I believe. Which

18:26

is right around the time you and Gerald were

18:28

starting up your stuff, right? We're doing all kinds

18:30

of stuff at that point. Yeah,

18:33

but the problem

18:35

for the historians through my whole

18:37

lifetime that the Mormon churches faced

18:39

is I don't see that

18:41

they have good answers

18:44

for the problems. They can give

18:46

you an answer, but I don't see them as

18:49

adequate. The problems are very

18:52

deep and very complicated. So

18:55

that all the way through, Quinn

18:57

and the different Mormon church historians

18:59

have spent these last 60 years

19:02

trying to write faith-promoting

19:05

history. And

19:08

they've done a lot of good

19:11

research along the way. Obviously,

19:14

though, for many people,

19:17

the answers still are not strong

19:19

enough because we see so

19:21

many people still leaving Mormonism

19:24

even after all of the research

19:27

has been done. And that's what the

19:29

brethren, why they have

19:31

such a pushback with Quinn on his

19:33

writing that, okay, Quinn, you

19:35

may think this is faith-promoting when you tell

19:37

all this, but most of the people read

19:40

this, don't end up thinking that's real faith-promoting.

19:43

I think what's fascinating, this tension

19:46

that comes out through the memoir

19:48

between Gerald and Sandra and

19:50

Michael Quinn is they were both doing the same

19:53

thing. They both Believed that

19:55

it's important to talk about

19:57

all of these difficult aspects.

20:00

The Mormon History Chef but with

20:02

different and goals and site. So

20:04

Michael Quinn believe it until he

20:06

died And twenty twenty one He

20:08

was a believer. He believed in

20:10

in Joseph Smith's as a Prophet

20:12

of God splitting the Book of

20:14

Mormon believes the truth claims of

20:16

Mormonism until his death. And

20:19

so for him he what he thought

20:21

was important cheryl these aspects of Mormon

20:23

history in order to help Latter Day

20:25

saints stay in the church you know

20:27

kind of inoculated them as he will

20:30

eat and sleep. Let's get roll out

20:32

there let everybody know it doesn't need

20:34

to be face on destroying and then

20:36

sandra correct me if I'm wrong but

20:38

you're in your insurance bowler miss since

20:40

we're sharing. All be things and in Mormon

20:42

history with the help people out of the

20:44

church. We are that's accurate

20:47

Mob rather they left or

20:49

not. We wanted them to

20:51

have informed decisions, right? and.

20:54

We. Felt the evidence would lead them

20:56

out. but many of our friends

20:58

stayed. But I wanted them to

21:00

make an informed decision to stage,

21:02

not just because. They

21:05

the grandma told them the first fish

21:07

and story and of they were. You're

21:09

sure that was all true. And

21:11

they didn't really know. The problems

21:13

with that story of it. Isn't

21:16

that easy? And.

21:18

Are very first struggles.

21:22

With the historians was over the

21:24

first fisher and an. led

21:27

to other. Extensive

21:30

research that historical community over

21:32

that next sixty years after

21:34

we started in City Nine

21:37

riding on first session problems

21:39

and my Quinn later so.

21:43

Does his book Early Mormonism The. Magic

21:45

Worldview. Although the answer see

21:47

that think I thought in the park

21:50

and I don't remember which pays it

21:52

as but he tells that early on.

21:55

He goes to hear. elder it's

21:58

smith the church patriarch show

22:02

memorabilia from his, what

22:06

would it be, great-grandpa? Great- ancestor.

22:11

Well, his ancestor, yeah. I

22:14

guess he would have come from Hiram Smith,

22:16

Joseph's brother. But he had

22:18

inherited artifacts from the Smith

22:21

family, and he had these magic

22:24

papers that

22:28

were owned

22:31

by Hiram Smith, evidently. And

22:33

he would, this elder Smith would

22:36

show them at firesides and things. Mike

22:39

saw those at one of these firesides and just

22:41

tucked it away in the back of his mind,

22:43

oh, that's interesting, and didn't even think about it

22:45

for years. He also

22:47

was aware that Reed Durham, who

22:49

was the Institute Director at the

22:51

University of Utah back in the

22:54

early 70s, had given a famous

22:57

talk on Joseph

22:59

Smith's Jupiter's Talisman, but at the time

23:01

they thought it was a Masonic

23:04

artifact, but it turns out to

23:06

be a magic artifact.

23:09

And Quinn was aware of that. But he had not put

23:12

the pieces together that these

23:14

were part of a bigger picture

23:16

of the Smith family's involvement with

23:19

the occult. And so

23:21

it's not until you come up to

23:23

the time of the Mark Hoffman

23:25

documents, and

23:27

Mark Hoffman starts

23:30

his documents in

23:32

78, I think

23:34

is the earliest one I know. I think

23:36

his earliest one I think he brought to

23:38

me on the second

23:43

anointing, and supposedly a document

23:46

from the Salt Lake Temple, which

23:48

is complicated. So if you want

23:50

to read our biography on

23:52

Lighthouse, I guess it's in there. Mike

23:57

Quinn. start

24:00

seeing these different documents that

24:04

Mark Hoffman is we

24:06

now know inventing but

24:08

supposedly finding that show

24:10

connections to magic and This

24:13

gets my Quinn interested in

24:16

the whole magic question of the early

24:18

Smith family So he spent

24:20

several years and researching all of that

24:22

and eventually comes out with his book

24:26

Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview

24:29

Which incidentally won the Mormon History

24:31

Association's best book award in 1988

24:35

and then you mentioned your biography

24:37

Sandra lighthouse It

24:40

won about you and Gerald and

24:42

it won the Mormon History Association's

24:44

best biography award last year So

24:46

incidentally both have won those awards

24:49

this episode brought to you by But

24:54

the Quinn's book early Mormonism

24:56

in the Magic Worldview was Just

24:59

a monumental study and

25:02

the brethren were not thankful that he

25:05

wrote it So

25:09

it just I'm sure cause them all kind of

25:11

grief But Quinn's philosophy

25:13

was if that's the way he lived

25:16

it then that's the way we tell

25:18

it And if the church

25:21

could get going and survive with that being

25:23

its story Then we ought to be able

25:25

to survive with it being our story now

25:28

so But he was

25:30

a little more accepting of some of that

25:32

than a lot of the average people But

25:36

Quinn's book, but that was a really

25:38

important study when he did the early

25:40

Mormonism in the Magic Worldview and and

25:43

it still remains the Starting

25:45

point I think anyone that's going to

25:47

try to deal

25:50

with that early period of Joseph

25:53

Smith's life It

25:55

would be required reading Okay,

25:59

I'm curious What did you so it came out in

26:01

1988 and That

26:04

was a decade after you and My

26:07

queen had had the conflict right

26:10

over the secret pamphlet But

26:13

what did you and Gerald think when early

26:15

Mormonism magic worldview came out in 88? Oh,

26:18

we just were fascinated by it now

26:22

It had its first edition came

26:24

out during the Mark Hoffman I

26:31

can't remember just how the dates go on that but

26:33

the first edition had some at

26:36

least one of Hoffman

26:38

stock forgeries forgeries and so there had

26:40

to be a new edition done a

26:44

bigger and better version and But

26:47

we were thrilled to see the research that

26:49

he had done on it now we were

26:51

troubled by his

26:56

Ability to marry Magic

27:01

with traditional Christianity

27:03

and So

27:07

other than that angle We

27:09

we were really impressed by the

27:11

research he did but that's the

27:14

problem for the Mormon historian in dealing

27:16

with Joseph's magic involvement

27:18

of how do you? put

27:21

that together with the Christian position

27:24

of traditionally

27:28

of rejecting magic involvement

27:30

and Whether

27:32

you make a white magic black magic,

27:34

I you know, they people make differences

27:36

anyways The

27:41

outer Christian community generally

27:43

outside of Mormonism would

27:46

would find that problematic

27:48

that someone was involved in soothsaying

27:52

magic rocks Digging

27:57

at night for very treasure binding

27:59

spirits that would guard the

28:01

treasure and doing

28:03

incantations to get the treasure

28:06

free from the spell and all.

28:09

And Mike was able in his mind to

28:12

meld it together and it didn't

28:14

bother him. One

28:19

of the problems though from looking at it

28:21

from the outside is, okay,

28:24

if you can say he could have

28:27

had some sort of power and whether you say

28:29

it's magic or God, the

28:31

problem though is that they never found a

28:34

treasure. And so

28:36

it isn't just that he's involved in

28:38

the occult,

28:41

but it's that he seems to

28:43

be deceptive in using

28:45

these things. And so how do we

28:48

deal with that part of it? So

28:51

I'm not sure how Quinn reconciled

28:53

all that in his mind, but

28:55

he did a great service in

28:57

pulling together all of the

28:59

references and sources on

29:02

that topic. So that, like I

29:04

say, I think it's classic. If you're going

29:06

to study the early years of the

29:08

Smith family, you have to read that. Whether

29:11

you agree with it or don't agree with

29:13

it, it is a primary text that

29:15

you just can't write on that early period

29:17

without reading them. And of

29:20

course, along that way is Dan

29:22

Vogel's books, another commercial

29:25

for his signature book. But

29:28

Dan Vogel's books, also dealing

29:30

with the early period of Mormonism

29:33

are just crucial. And

29:35

I think when you put together Dan

29:37

Vogel's works, Brent

29:39

Metcalf's works, Quinn's works,

29:43

these are all just paramount

29:46

for anyone going

29:48

through those, the early

29:51

years of Joseph Smith. Of course, Dan Vogel

29:54

goes on to do that whole series

29:56

of early Mormon documents.

29:59

That's right. And five volumes

30:01

of six volumes of that. I

30:04

don't I think it's yeah I should

30:06

know but it was a one-time ago. It's half a

30:08

bookshop Yeah, I think

30:10

it's I want to say four but It's

30:13

a lot of volumes. Yes a lot of

30:15

I'm curious You

30:17

know whenever You could

30:20

say critic or apostate or honest history

30:22

teller however you want to choose it.

30:25

It almost seems like whenever One

30:28

of that type of person emerges in the public

30:30

Mormon consciousness at some point

30:33

a faithful oftentimes

30:35

on the church's payroll person emerges to kind

30:37

of be the foil and So,

30:41

you know, it's interesting to me that you

30:43

and Michael you and Gerald and Michael are

30:46

are similar ages

30:49

And you're you're starting to study and

30:51

ask questions about Mormon history You

30:54

know within a two or three year period of each other Now,

30:59

I don't know exactly when Quinn

31:01

goes to grad undergrad in Yale

31:06

Exactly the years he would be

31:08

why you for his undergrad he goes to

31:10

the University of Utah for Masters

31:12

and then he goes to Yale for PhD and do

31:14

we know the other in that so he starts BYU

31:16

in the 60s Okay serves

31:18

a mission And then

31:20

yeah, so late 60s early 70s. Okay, he's that

31:22

he's at the U and then he goes to

31:25

yell in the 70s So I'm

31:27

wondering when Quinn for

31:29

you Sandra would have emerged as A

31:32

potential foil and it sounds like it's when

31:34

this dr. clandestine pamphlet

31:37

comes out and Gerald's just trying

31:39

to figure out Who

31:42

wrote it but he knew Gerald knew

31:44

enough to go to

31:46

quids Yale dissertation To

31:49

find the the tells in the

31:51

dissertation So I'm wondering

31:54

when Quinn came into

31:56

your and Gerald's mind your

31:58

consciousness as sort of

32:00

a church paid

32:03

foil to your criticisms

32:06

of the church? Was it before

32:08

the pamphlet? And if so,

32:11

when that started happening?

32:13

When you started realizing he

32:15

was trying to neutralize your work,

32:18

basically? Well, Gerald was aware of

32:20

Quinn's dissertation, but

32:22

I'm not sure just what brought

32:25

that to his attention. And

32:27

it may be through early issues of

32:29

BYU studies or dialogue or something.

32:35

I don't remember when

32:37

Quinn's earliest articles

32:39

would have started appearing. Do you know?

32:42

I think that Quinn, so when this

32:44

pamphlet came out challenging your work, More

32:47

Buddhism, Shadow of Reality, Quinn

32:50

was working for the Church History

32:52

Division for Leonard Errington. My

32:55

guess is, as Gerald probably was

32:57

looking at all the historians working there to

32:59

try and figure out who had written this anonymous

33:01

pamphlet and then started reading their works.

33:04

So it mentions this

33:06

in your biography, Lighthouse, how

33:08

Gerald sees these really weird Latin

33:11

phrases in that anonymous pamphlet. So

33:14

I think he probably started going through all the

33:16

historians working at the Church History Division, reading their

33:18

works. And then when he saw that really

33:20

weird Latin phrase, Hergo Proctor-Hock Post, whatever.

33:23

Something like that. Well, that was when

33:25

he figured it out. It

33:27

was Quinn. Okay. Well,

33:29

we know from both

33:32

Quinn's memoirs and from

33:34

our biography that

33:37

Ron Huggins wrote about us, The

33:40

Lighthouse, I think

33:42

Gerald was already aware of Quinn, and he

33:45

may have even already have read his dissertation.

33:50

But the guess

33:54

that it was Quinn came

33:56

the year before when... Gerald

34:01

was friends with Reed Durham, the Institute Director

34:03

that did the paper on the Jupiter

34:08

talisman. But

34:10

Gerald had got to be friends with

34:13

Reed Durham, and they had talked at

34:15

different times sharing about different

34:17

areas that they were researching.

34:24

I don't want to give the impression that Reed

34:27

was sympathetic to our point of

34:29

view, but

34:32

it's just like Gerald's friendship with Octon Kraut,

34:34

the polygamist. Gerald

34:36

was always interested in talking with anyone

34:39

who was doing factual history, no matter

34:41

what side they were coming from. They

34:44

all wanted to see the same documents,

34:47

even if they come to different conclusions. So

34:51

Reed had already mentioned to Gerald

34:53

that the Church historians office

34:55

was thinking of doing a rebuttal,

34:58

and the name of Michael Quinn had

35:00

come up at that time as a

35:02

possible person to do such a thing.

35:05

And Gerald had just made notes about

35:07

it and put them away in a

35:09

file and hadn't really thought

35:12

about it until the anonymous historian's

35:16

response to shadow reality came out. And

35:18

so that then drove

35:20

Gerald back to going through his files trying to find

35:22

that note he'd made. And when

35:25

he saw that the name Mike Quinn was on

35:27

his little notes, he thought, oh,

35:29

I better look into him because he may be the one

35:31

that did this. But at the

35:33

time of the rebuttal to us, I

35:36

think there were other people trying to figure out who

35:38

it was as well. And they

35:40

had some thought that it might have been, was

35:46

it Bush or Bushman? Bushman,

35:49

Richard Bushman? Bushman might have been

35:51

one of the authors. And

35:53

Arrington had been suspected. But

35:58

because Gerald had this clue. that maybe might

36:00

be involved, he went back and looked at

36:02

his thesis again and saw all

36:04

these Latin phrases in it. But

36:07

the one that stood out was the

36:10

post hoc ergo proctor hoc. We

36:13

got to remember that. Who writes that? I

36:15

will never remember that. Sorry. It's a logical

36:18

policy, I think. So

36:20

Gerald Reaves, we're the anonymous historian,

36:22

and we got post hoc ergo

36:24

proctor hoc. And so Gerald's like, ah,

36:27

okay, there's a clue. Yes. Even

36:29

reading his memoirs, he

36:32

doesn't put in the post hoc ergo

36:34

one, I don't think. But he

36:36

never figures out how Gerald figured it out that

36:39

he knew it was Mike. He's

36:41

just shocked that Gerald calls him. Yeah.

36:43

How does he know? But he does

36:45

use Latin phrases several times in his

36:47

memoirs. Oh, yeah. Not that particular one

36:50

again. But he does. He loves his

36:52

Latin. Yeah, you read along here every

36:54

once in a while, I'll get one, and I thought, oh,

36:56

that's a quinism. What

37:00

do you think about the confrontation as

37:02

related by D. Michael Quinn in

37:05

his book with Gerald? Did

37:08

it feel accurate? Did it feel embellished? Did

37:10

it feel one-sided to

37:12

you? Of what Quinn

37:15

writes about it? Yeah, Quinn recounting

37:17

his confrontations with Gerald. Well,

37:20

I think he sees Gerald as having more sinister

37:22

motives than I see

37:24

Gerald as having. But

37:29

when Gerald later prints

37:31

Quinn's talk

37:33

he gave at BYU on being a Mormon

37:35

historian that got Quinn in trouble, Quinn

37:39

comments that he thought

37:41

Gerald was just retaliating against

37:43

him for Quinn writing the rebuttal

37:45

against us. And I

37:47

don't think Gerald thought that way. I

37:51

think in Gerald's mind, it was two different instances. Quinn

37:54

had done the pamphlet, but then on this talk, Gerald

37:56

thought it was important. He

37:58

was afraid the talk would be squelched. and

38:00

people wouldn't see that

38:03

their own historians felt

38:06

there was a problem with the way the

38:08

church handled history, that their own

38:10

historians were calling for an open

38:12

history and the church was

38:14

pushing back. So his idea was that

38:16

this talk needs to go out to

38:18

a broader audience. And

38:20

I don't think in his mind it was really a

38:24

retaliation. Or

38:26

revenge. A revenge kind of

38:28

thing. Gerald didn't really think

38:31

that way. That's

38:34

why he could be friends with different

38:36

people that had different beliefs, believers, unbelievers.

38:39

I mean, we were friends through

38:41

the years with atheist historians, polygamous

38:45

historians,

38:47

the whole gamut. I mean, I was

38:50

kind of friends with T. Edgar Lyon,

38:52

who did the research on a

38:54

lot of the work on the

38:56

Nauvoo restoration stuff. And

38:59

he used to stop in the bookstore. Really?

39:02

Yeah. That's cool. My

39:04

dad, who was very devout, he

39:07

had three haunts when he came into Utah. He'd

39:09

visit the benchmark books, Ken

39:11

Sanders and Utah Lighthouse Ministry.

39:13

He loved to hang out with the Tanners. Right.

39:18

So, I mean, although

39:20

we're painted as these ogres, we

39:23

actually can sit down and have a

39:26

good discussion and talk with people from

39:28

different points of view. Gerald

39:30

was kind of like a kid

39:32

in a candy store talking to

39:34

different historians. These are my people.

39:37

These are people that know the documents I'm

39:39

looking at. It's someone to talk to that,

39:42

you know, most of our friends think we're crazy.

39:44

And I can't,

39:48

when you get deep into Mormon history,

39:50

it narrows the field of how many

39:53

people, how many nerds are interested in

39:55

it? How many nerds are

39:57

there? We Can talk about all the nitty

39:59

gritty. The new razor blade I

40:01

didn't know existed for Ss and my dad

40:03

used to say the same disease said these

40:05

are my people for the fifth. Grade

40:08

at L Owners Anderson said: you

40:10

remember once Gerald had would seal

40:13

discovered the Michael Quinn was the

40:15

author of Doctor for Hims don't

40:17

have the competition Oh and the

40:19

weights. Quinn lies to Gerald as

40:21

says he's not the guy. Digital

40:24

buyers to Gerald, not by dear

40:26

member or not. Gerald was surreal

40:28

a fly on when Arrington lies

40:30

to him as well and says

40:32

he doesn't know anything about it.

40:35

Gerald. Felt. They both were lying

40:37

to him, but the outdoor way to prove

40:39

otherwise. But now he wasn't. Persuaded.

40:43

By the either of their comments that

40:45

they had nothing do at that he

40:47

realized the game. was get all. These

40:50

guys jobs are probably on the line.

40:53

They have to lie and know. That's

40:55

always disappointed. And them. And

40:58

I think they were disappointed and

41:00

themselves. I think Arrington and Quinn

41:02

both were. Remorseful that.

41:05

That they had to lie to Gerald. Bigger.

41:07

there is a certain irony and

41:10

this whole thing. There was a

41:12

big wires. But now that I like

41:14

warm and how true for it had some

41:16

elena for were lying about true talent yeah

41:18

I mean and and when Manson sat in

41:20

his memoir he he talks about his regrets

41:23

in line about. It in his life hundred

41:25

basically yeah that's the start of my i

41:27

will get our news that turn about as

41:29

are many good as. Express or guess,

41:32

but especially Leonard Arrington End Laird

41:34

Leonard or intense add diary. Says

41:36

we've also published to He writes their

41:38

that he I regret having to lie

41:41

but he says something I had to

41:43

do. For. That serves at

41:45

the scene. he doesn't He's a term lines of the Lord

41:47

for yeah, he says he does a. Similar

41:50

to a similar turn down

41:52

an Absolutely so on. They

41:54

both said. I us address to

41:57

their apologize to you and offered

41:59

no. No, I never

42:01

gave us a soccer to say so.

42:03

Yeah, yeah, I'm. About

42:08

as it is gonna ironic

42:10

said that that situation him

42:12

about sorry for those with

42:14

i'm sorry for god yellow

42:16

like live on.elicited i know

42:18

was was so yards. And

42:21

since read routes that. Maybe read

42:23

that sense to see save excuses. As

42:26

advocates of the new Mormon history, we

42:28

were cause. In. The

42:30

the as me my

42:32

glasses we were cause

42:35

him the tangled web

42:37

of our best intentions

42:40

of faith. I feel

42:42

embarrassed empathy for Lds

42:44

headquarters and it's scenery

42:47

sins of compromising defenders

42:49

in his plan account

42:51

in his plane account

42:54

of Christian Perfection Methodist

42:56

founder John Wesley had

42:58

described such. Compromise as

43:00

the cool. I forgot, right?

43:02

Yes. And it was as

43:05

of I said the as I get it

43:07

out of a cording son. Leslie Yeah yeah

43:09

yeah. Us. And another

43:11

interesting thing on that Clint pamphlet.

43:15

When all this stuff comes out

43:17

then you have club in nineteen

43:20

seventy gate. He gets a

43:22

Quinn gets a death threat because

43:24

absence from one of our fans.

43:27

I guess. Six

43:31

When rights I became.

43:33

Terrified for myself and family

43:35

when a man found our

43:37

house. Tonight asking about the

43:39

anonymous. Response T threatened to

43:42

blooded told me for this

43:44

attack on that sad or

43:46

fuss. I quickly changed our

43:48

number kept it out of

43:50

the future. Found bucks at

43:52

Lusted. Unless said

43:55

at for one want him

43:57

for bases such he was.

44:00

he goes, he goes on, he says, uh, I,

44:03

I couldn't do anything about the

44:06

publicity and felt really

44:09

anxious about being murdered

44:11

by some anti Mormon crackpot.

44:15

Well, let's talk about the other side

44:17

of that. We were

44:19

always in the phone book. We

44:21

were all, uh, you could always find

44:23

our address or phone number. And

44:26

we were always worried about some Mormon

44:28

crackpot that might decide they're going to

44:30

help pod out by getting rid of

44:33

the opposition. When people have

44:35

come to me and said, John, aren't you afraid

44:37

to do Mormon stories that, you know, someone might

44:39

hurt you? I'm like, well, Michael Quinn and Jared,

44:41

you know, Sandra Tanner is still alive. So yeah,

44:43

what's, what's those

44:48

canaries in the coal mine drop? And I'll start

44:51

to get worried. Yeah. And I, and

44:53

I would just recommend. So we had just

44:55

published lighthouse, this biography of the Tanner's way

44:57

as I'm editing chosen path. And it was

44:59

so fun to like read what Mike is

45:01

writing his side of the story. And then

45:03

the Tanner side of the story says people

45:05

want to just really get into this conflict

45:08

of what's going on in the seventies and eighties

45:10

in Mormon history. We've those two books

45:12

together. It's, it's fascinating. So

45:15

Sandra, after, after Gerald

45:17

and, you know, confronted

45:20

D. Michael and D. Michael lied

45:22

and Gerald knew the D. Michael

45:24

had lied for

45:26

that point forward. Did you and Gerald think of him

45:28

as a foil to what you were trying to do?

45:30

Was he a nemesis? Did

45:33

he even rise to that level

45:35

of prominence and continue at that

45:38

sort of level of prominence in your minds or not?

45:42

Well, we

45:45

kind of viewed him as a little more

45:47

fair than, than the

45:50

true opposition. I

45:55

mean, the other side would have been

45:57

a apostle Packer. Hillary

46:01

Clinton's arch nemesis, Vader.

46:03

Yeah, Yeah, so that's.

46:05

All the way through the book to

46:07

his quinn struggle with. Ah,

46:10

Apostle Packer is always. On

46:12

a which chance to. Subvert

46:16

his research some way or a

46:18

stop his career or something else

46:20

as to have. Quite.

46:24

A different look of general authorities and

46:27

the average person would have of the

46:29

mill at the top and. And

46:32

Quinn saw him as someone different

46:34

than the rest of the men

46:37

he. He had fond memories and

46:39

associations with different church leaders, but.

46:41

Not Packer. He. He.

46:43

Had done real stars. Stats

46:45

Understating: It's and as. A.

46:49

Single clean them as as you mentioned at

46:51

the recently received really looked up to and

46:53

had a great relationship with of one of

46:56

them as. President. Spencer W. Kimball

46:58

very close with his son Thomas

47:00

as a father figure and then

47:02

also Marion D. Hanks who was

47:04

a General Authority and the Lds.

47:06

Church for forty years

47:08

for the seeded Woodbury

47:10

as Mr. President yet

47:13

been some. Say Yes! So

47:15

he was see Michael Plans mission

47:17

present in the British Missions ah

47:19

incidentally married he thinks was also

47:21

elders, a free or Hollins Mission

47:23

president, the young Jeffrey or Hollins

47:25

mister president and them quite know

47:27

clerk who both of those said

47:29

two men went on to become

47:31

Lds Apostles. They are today. And

47:34

Us but Clean was also in that

47:36

same miss and so smearing to Hanks

47:38

was hugely influential in their lives and

47:41

in in Queens less and and sympathies.

47:43

We are going to be publishing the biography

47:45

of Married to Hanks very soon. Nine The

47:47

Spring by seems are so much. I

47:50

thought of as interceded a book when

47:52

it talks about plan. And.

47:55

not quinn but arrington been demoted

47:57

and at them as sat down

47:59

to be BYU to

48:01

run history department things

48:03

down there. Mike

48:09

Quinn talks about how

48:11

Errington felt about

48:14

being taken out of the historians department and sent to

48:17

BYU. And Errington

48:19

makes some comment to the effects

48:21

that, well, now

48:24

we can just be concerned about

48:26

writing real history and we don't have

48:28

to worry about being

48:30

under the gun as the official

48:32

church answer on everything. That

48:35

when you're the church historian, everyone's

48:37

looking to you for the church

48:40

official answer. And I

48:42

think he felt a sense of relief

48:44

of not carrying that burden

48:47

because that implies it with it,

48:50

that you give more faith promoting slants

48:53

to things than he felt comfortable doing.

48:56

And by going to BYU to do

48:59

further history, I think he felt he

49:01

was more free to tell

49:03

it like

49:06

it is and to, although

49:08

he still was trying to be faithful

49:10

to Mormonism, but to be more frank

49:12

about the warts and wrinkles in Mormonism

49:14

and not blossom all over it so

49:16

everything was 100% beautiful. Quinn

49:22

also says about that incident, he

49:25

says Leonard's optimism

49:27

just broke my heart,

49:29

just made me want to cry. He ever the

49:31

optimist. And I'm friends with

49:33

Leonard's daughter, Susan, Errington Mattson, and

49:36

she told me actually her father

49:38

was just devastated by

49:40

that. But Leonard did tend

49:43

to be, I've read through much of

49:45

his diaries, he did tend to be

49:47

really optimistic always about things. Almost

49:50

boyish in his optimism. Yeah.

49:53

Sandra, did Michael Quinn ever come to

49:56

your store or did

49:58

y'all ever meet at MHA? days,

50:00

or did you have any direct

50:02

conversations after that phone call

50:04

with Gerald throughout your

50:06

life and his that you remember? Well,

50:09

there were some different times when

50:11

he'd give a paper at Sunstone

50:14

or Mormon History or something that

50:17

where I might have asked a question

50:20

and not questions to trip him

50:23

up, just questions about historical items.

50:26

And well,

50:29

for instance, and I don't

50:31

remember if this was Mormon History or

50:33

what, but he was talking on post-manifestal

50:35

polygamy at one of these symposiums

50:39

or conferences. And

50:41

I asked the question of him, and I'm

50:43

sure he knew who I was. Most

50:47

people recognize me when I'm around

50:50

at Mormon History. And

50:54

I asked him if he had carried his

50:56

research beyond that

50:58

first generation of people

51:01

that practice polygamy

51:04

after the manifesto. Did

51:06

you do any research on the next generation?

51:09

Did their children continue

51:11

with, did any of them continue

51:14

with polygamy? And he

51:16

said, no, he hadn't been

51:19

able to get into taking it

51:22

another generation down. And

51:24

I commented that the reason I brought it up

51:26

is that my

51:30

great-grandpa was—what was his

51:35

name? Walter Young. My

51:39

grandpa was Walter Young. He was the son

51:41

of Brigham Young Jr. And

51:45

although Brigham Young Jr. married

51:48

my grandma, great-grandma, before

51:50

the manifesto, it was in 1887. But

51:54

it was during the period when the church was—all

51:56

the leaders were in hiding for

52:00

living polygamy. It wasn't a time

52:02

when it

52:04

was okay with the government

52:06

to be taking more plural wives, but he

52:09

went ahead and took this

52:11

plural wife in 1887. But what we didn't know

52:15

until after my grandma died going

52:17

through her papers is

52:19

that he had married at least

52:21

one or two women post-manifestal

52:24

in polygamy. And

52:28

then my great

52:32

grandma evidently

52:34

was asked to go

52:36

into polygamy. And

52:42

my grandma was asked to go

52:44

into polygamy by Walter, who was

52:46

the son of this apostle who

52:48

was raised in a home that

52:50

was a product of post-manifestal

52:53

polygamy in the family. And

52:55

so my grandpa had asked

53:00

my grandma if he could take a plural wife.

53:04

And so she has this great story of

53:06

having a vision where God shows

53:08

her that they're not going to go into

53:10

polygamy. And so she tells

53:12

Walter this, and she thinks this puts an end

53:15

to it. Well, then when we go through my

53:17

grandma's papers after she died, we found

53:19

this postcard that addressed

53:23

to my beloved husband,

53:26

Walter and blah, blah, blah. And hope you

53:28

can see the kid, the boys want to

53:30

see you, blah, blah, blah. And then

53:32

it's got this name. It's not anybody we know.

53:34

This is a postcard for some

53:36

woman writing to Walter about hope

53:39

you can come see the boys.

53:42

And we

53:44

have no idea who this person is. It's

53:46

postmarked in the town we know they lived

53:49

in. It's a postmark where my uncle was

53:51

born in the same area and that. So

53:53

we know they lived there. So

53:56

who's this woman that says Walter, this

53:58

postcard? about

54:01

coming to see Du Bois. So

54:06

the assumption is that it was a post- manifesto polygamy.

54:08

That's what I had to have been after 1900. And

54:10

so I'd ask Quinn

54:13

about did you do the next generation

54:15

down and he said no but my

54:17

reason for asking was it'll look like

54:20

my family where

54:22

you have a General Authority son had

54:24

continued polygamy after the manifesto

54:26

after 1900 to continue

54:29

it down. Which I think is

54:31

still an interesting thing. I don't know how

54:34

well anyone could research it but I would

54:36

be curious how many of

54:38

the people's next

54:41

generation felt they had to live

54:43

polygamy after the

54:46

second manifesto even.

54:48

Yeah so as you mentioned

54:50

Mike did this dialogue article on

54:52

that and he also his magnum

54:54

opus was supposed to be two

54:56

books on post-manifesto polygamy. And if

54:58

you'll recall that was the first thing as a

55:00

teen and then as a

55:02

student at BYU he's that makes

55:05

him start questioning things like in in

55:07

church history that aren't talked about. But

55:09

anyway so his magnum opus was going

55:11

to be these two volumes on post-manifesto

55:13

polygamy. He writes about it in his

55:16

memoir and I will just share that

55:18

his children found what he had done

55:20

on those two volumes and

55:23

I've been in talks with them

55:25

about taking those editing them and publishing

55:27

them. So we may have one

55:29

more or two more books from D.

55:31

Michael Quinn on his work on post-manifesto

55:33

polygamy. That's fun. Yeah

55:37

and I ask that question because it just

55:39

seems like y'all would have been natural collaborators.

55:42

Not collaborators. Yeah because you

55:44

had different end goals. Yeah right.

55:46

Well I think you both wanted

55:48

to discern the truth about the

55:51

history. Right but with different ends

55:53

in mind. Mike to keep people

55:55

in the church center and Gerald to say

55:57

well maybe help you out. But

56:01

I guess I'm saying, Sandra just got through

56:03

telling us 30 minutes ago that she and

56:05

Gerald didn't care. She would have friends of

56:08

believers, nonbelievers, atheists, Christians,

56:10

non-Christians, just because at

56:12

least for Sandra and Gerald, it didn't

56:15

matter what the

56:17

faith politics were. But I guess we're saying maybe

56:19

for Michael that it would have been... Well, it

56:21

would have been a little more awkward because

56:23

it had been such a

56:26

personal issue between

56:29

Gerald and Mike. Maybe

56:31

Mike was embarrassed? No,

56:34

I think Gerald would have felt uncomfortable with...

56:40

Hanging around Mike? With being

56:44

able to view him that neutrally,

56:46

like he did with Ogden Kraut, the polygamist,

56:50

or talking with Reed Durham, because they

56:52

had not taken any

56:55

written stand to denounce us

56:57

or call us out. And

56:59

throughout Quinn's memoir, he says throughout the

57:01

memoir, he does not like the tanners.

57:04

Yeah. Yeah, he does not

57:06

like the tanners and that never changes. Yeah,

57:08

so I think it would have been too

57:10

awkward. But I think that he

57:12

and Gerald, had

57:14

there not been the pamphlet, would

57:19

have had a lot of common ground

57:21

in their research. Like

57:24

you said, the early Mormonism, the magic

57:26

worldview, and the origins and extensions of

57:28

power, y'all were cheering him on, I'm

57:31

sure, right? Well,

57:33

we carried his books in the

57:35

bookstore, which got us in trouble

57:37

with the faithful Mormons. Lou

57:40

Midgeley came

57:43

in and... Wasn't it Lou Midgeley that came in

57:45

and castigated me one day

57:47

for carrying Quinn's books?

57:51

Lou Midgeley was an LDS apologist and

57:53

Quinn couldn't stand him either. No,

57:56

it's a classic from Lou Midgeley. Oh really? Yeah,

57:58

so I knew him. Yeah. Yeah, he's all

58:00

through the book. Oh, he's here. He came in

58:02

one day and really

58:06

carried on with How

58:08

could I handle those books by that gay

58:11

man? And and it was

58:13

much more vulgar than that or I shouldn't

58:15

say vulgar necessarily, but but more caustic and

58:19

I just said look I Don't

58:22

know the family situation of

58:24

most of the authors of the books in

58:27

my store That's not

58:29

my issue of what their family dynamics

58:31

is I go

58:34

by the research and he's got a lot of

58:36

good research So that's what I'm looking at even

58:39

though we don't have the same conclusions But

58:41

that was true of many of the Mormon

58:43

historians that we sold in our bookstore that

58:46

I could Deal

58:49

with the fact that they came to

58:51

their different conclusion at the end because

58:53

they had valid historical research

58:55

in the book so We

59:01

in a sense were champions

59:03

of Quinn's after

59:05

the his

59:07

little pamphlet against us in

59:10

that we sold his

59:12

books and recommended his books to people

59:14

if they asked me about Like

59:16

Mormon hierarchy stuff and held a lot. Here's

59:19

the books you need Mormon hierarchy origins extensions

59:21

of power, you know, and so

59:26

It was a awkward friendship,

59:28

but we didn't know each other

59:30

personally So

59:33

makes sense What

59:35

a weird thing for Mitchell II did I

59:38

mean the fact that you were well known apostates

59:40

that he would come in your bookstore and tell

59:42

you not to tell you what Publish

59:45

it's like it was it he came

59:47

in with a deliberate Motive

59:50

of trying to get me angry.

59:53

He wanted a confrontation that he

59:55

could go boast about

59:57

how belligerent and mean that

1:00:00

Tanner's are. He went

1:00:02

around to different, um,

1:00:05

critical sources

1:00:09

and would, I mean, he was famous for this

1:00:11

of trying to get a rise out of people.

1:00:14

And so he was just being

1:00:16

very rude to me and very,

1:00:18

um, dismissive and

1:00:21

just snide. But

1:00:23

this was when Gerald was going into his Alzheimer's

1:00:25

and I think this is in our lighthouse

1:00:28

book. Um, dear

1:00:30

sweet, Charles, he was in the

1:00:32

back and heard midgetly ragging

1:00:34

on me and body was being, uh,

1:00:37

rude to me. And so he comes

1:00:39

in to save the day and

1:00:42

opens the door to the bookstore and

1:00:44

tells him, uh, I think

1:00:46

we've heard enough. I think it's time for you

1:00:48

to go home. And he opens the door for

1:00:50

Lou to leave. And so he

1:00:52

later writes this up on the internet spot

1:00:54

is still up on the internet. I'm sure,

1:00:57

uh, the day that Gerald Tanner threw

1:00:59

him out of the bookstore. And

1:01:02

uh, it just was so funny when

1:01:04

I read that, uh, you know, here's

1:01:06

milk post Gerald opening the door and

1:01:09

saying, we're done. You're leaving. That's

1:01:12

so interesting your relationship with Midgley cause yeah,

1:01:14

it's Quinn whites in the memoir about how

1:01:16

he could not stand Lou Midgley. Yeah.

1:01:18

Interesting. Well, he, he

1:01:21

was the, so I

1:01:25

think he saw himself as the

1:01:27

champion of the true cause and

1:01:29

anyone that was a fraction

1:01:31

off from what he perceived

1:01:34

to be the truth was his enemy.

1:01:36

And he would just set out to

1:01:39

deride or dismiss or, uh,

1:01:42

start talk about the

1:01:44

person to diminish them in other

1:01:47

people's eyes. But he had quite a

1:01:50

bad reputation in that regard. Yeah.

1:01:53

I was like, you know, believe then

1:01:55

Midgley, then Daniel Peterson, like there's a

1:01:57

long, that'd be a fun book is

1:01:59

the, history of Mormon apologists, kind

1:02:01

of prominent, sharp elbow,

1:02:04

Mormon apologists. That'd be, you want to write it,

1:02:06

John? Maybe.

1:02:11

Okay. So, um, well

1:02:14

that's classy that y'all were willing to

1:02:16

recognize his value as a

1:02:18

scholar and help them sell books, even though he had

1:02:20

done y'all a dirty. That's

1:02:24

nice. So, um, any,

1:02:27

uh, other, other important reflections

1:02:30

like, so, Arrington and you know,

1:02:32

the, the church history department gets kind of

1:02:34

shut down. Quinn goes to BYU. There's

1:02:37

the Hoffman stuff. Goes to BYU, not Quinn.

1:02:40

Didn't they both? No,

1:02:42

Quinn. Um, well, Quinn went to BYU,

1:02:44

but not at the time that Arrington went

1:02:46

down there. Yeah, he didn't go with Arrington's. Yeah,

1:02:48

I think he was at Yale. He,

1:02:52

Quinn later becomes a professor of

1:02:54

history at BYU. He's hired. Yeah. Yeah. No,

1:02:56

it's okay. But he ends up being a professor

1:02:58

there later. Okay.

1:03:02

Yeah. Professor of history. Got

1:03:04

it. Okay. And

1:03:06

Arrington didn't become a professor of

1:03:08

history when he went to BYU. No, he, no, he

1:03:11

did as well, but it was like the, the whole,

1:03:13

um, what was called Camelot, but

1:03:15

the church history division at the time is shut

1:03:17

down and it's in 1981, which

1:03:20

incidentally is when signature books was

1:03:22

started and that was intentional by

1:03:25

the owner. But, um, and they're sent

1:03:27

down to BYU, kind of demoted, if you

1:03:29

will. And there was, I think it's called the

1:03:31

Joseph Fielding Smith Institute or the Joseph

1:03:34

F. Smith history. I always prefer that, which else?

1:03:37

Um, I think it's Fielding. But yeah, it's just

1:03:39

the Fielding Smith Institute. And I think

1:03:42

Quinn is either at Yale

1:03:44

or anyways, when Quinn finishes his PhD at

1:03:46

Yale, then he starts applying for professorships

1:03:48

and he's hired by BYU to be

1:03:50

a professor of history. So it's not

1:03:52

with like, gap

1:03:55

between him leaving the

1:03:57

church history department and him joining BYU. Okay,

1:04:00

well, did you notice that and

1:04:02

I think we talked about this

1:04:04

with Moshe Barbara that Quinn

1:04:08

Sort of attributes the whole

1:04:10

dr. Clandestine Fiasco

1:04:13

as the final undoing of

1:04:16

the Errington administration Yeah, Quinn

1:04:18

says he believes that in

1:04:21

his memoir so I looked at Errington's

1:04:23

diary for the same time and Errington's

1:04:26

writing about being sent to be white.

1:04:28

He doesn't say anything about the pamphlet He

1:04:30

writes about the pamphlet he writes about being

1:04:32

figured out and discovered by Gerald and how

1:04:35

he's embarrassed that he lies about it and so forth

1:04:37

but Errington doesn't say that that

1:04:39

incident is the reason why he's Demoted

1:04:41

and if you look in Errington's diaries

1:04:43

and also in this memoir There's all

1:04:46

kinds of conflicts going on between

1:04:48

Leonard Errington and G Homer Durham

1:04:50

who was the general authority Advisor over

1:04:52

the church history division. So I think there

1:04:54

were a lot of things but in Quinn's

1:04:56

mind. Yeah, it's him He's the reason why

1:04:58

letters demoted. What do you think about did

1:05:00

you did that strike you as interesting Sandra?

1:05:03

I Yeah, I noticed

1:05:05

that but I Was

1:05:09

Quinn all along in

1:05:11

reading his story there's

1:05:13

so much other stuff going on

1:05:15

around him that There

1:05:18

is a Bigger

1:05:22

story To

1:05:24

view the Camelot years and

1:05:27

what's going on through Errington's

1:05:29

period covers a

1:05:32

lot more events than just what Quinn's

1:05:34

life covers and So

1:05:36

if you wanted to get a real view of

1:05:38

that time period there's several

1:05:40

books you'd have to read to

1:05:43

to flush that out Errington's Diary

1:05:48

biography whatever would be One

1:05:51

of the things you would have to add to Quinn But

1:05:54

I think you also would need

1:05:56

something like our lighthouse to give

1:05:58

you the some

1:06:01

of the conflicts

1:06:03

that they don't talk about. So

1:06:05

there were a lot of conflicts going

1:06:07

on. I mean, we had our lawsuit

1:06:09

with Andrew Ehad over the Clayton

1:06:12

diary thing, and then the church

1:06:14

suit us in 1999-2000 time period over the church handbook

1:06:17

stuff. And

1:06:23

then, you have the September

1:06:25

6th fiasco, which

1:06:29

Quinn touches on, but very briefly

1:06:31

I felt in his memoirs,

1:06:36

that's a more complicated story than just

1:06:38

what he dealt with of

1:06:41

all the different people that were involved. Well, he gives

1:06:43

a little bit of a run-through

1:06:45

of the different people. But

1:06:47

there was so much going

1:06:51

on in that time period on

1:06:53

so many fronts. The church must

1:06:55

have just been tearing their hair off of

1:06:58

these little fires that

1:07:01

are popping up all the time all over

1:07:03

the place on different aspects of

1:07:05

church history, different aspects

1:07:07

of theology, on feminism,

1:07:11

gay rights. It isn't

1:07:13

just history. There's the

1:07:16

black issue, the priesthood issue,

1:07:21

the just

1:07:23

general different scholarship on their

1:07:26

scriptures, challenges

1:07:29

to the Book of Mormon, challenges to the

1:07:31

Book of Abraham, challenges

1:07:34

to the Joseph Smith

1:07:36

translation of the Bible. There were

1:07:38

just so many different areas that

1:07:40

were being challenged. It

1:07:43

was like you could just put all the

1:07:45

topics of Mormonism on a dartboard, put

1:07:47

on a blindfold and throw the

1:07:49

dart, and you would hit something

1:07:52

that was being written about or

1:07:54

people were worked up about or

1:07:56

people were getting fired over through

1:07:58

that whole time period. I

1:08:00

think Quinn has a little

1:08:02

bit of tunnel vision on seeing

1:08:08

his participation as a heavier

1:08:12

weight. He

1:08:16

was a factor, but there were

1:08:18

many other factors. Like

1:08:20

the September 6th thing, each

1:08:23

of those people had

1:08:25

their own struggles with

1:08:28

the brethren and the church and

1:08:30

was research and history and all. So

1:08:33

that Quinn

1:08:36

might have felt that his

1:08:38

dealings with us were the final

1:08:40

blow, but I

1:08:43

would say it's one of them. There

1:08:46

was a whole

1:08:48

ream of papers you

1:08:50

could have written on other

1:08:54

problem areas that were facing the church

1:08:56

at that time that brought things to

1:08:58

the conclusion. If we have to shut

1:09:00

down the church historians department. I

1:09:02

think that comes out throughout the

1:09:04

memoir Quinn sees. Of course, it's

1:09:06

him telling his own story. Each

1:09:09

one of us, if we were to write a memoir,

1:09:12

an autobiography, we would be the center of

1:09:14

that story. But

1:09:16

he does tend to see himself as

1:09:18

the center of everything that's going on.

1:09:22

What was it like Sandra

1:09:24

to have been on the

1:09:26

receiving end of Michael Quinn's

1:09:28

apologetics, you being a target,

1:09:31

you seeing him as a faithful historian

1:09:34

that you were cheering on only 20 years

1:09:37

later to see him on

1:09:40

the receiving end of an extra communication. What

1:09:43

was that like for you to witness the guy who

1:09:45

had been attacking you as a believer to

1:09:47

see him get excommunicated? Well

1:09:49

I felt sorry for Quinn. I

1:09:53

didn't feel to rejoice over

1:09:55

that. It

1:09:59

was just part of it. of that whole sad

1:10:01

story of how everyone, it seemed

1:10:04

like that the faithful

1:10:07

historians for

1:10:09

the last 30 years had

1:10:11

been systematically

1:10:14

cut off some

1:10:16

way because

1:10:20

they were too frank. And

1:10:25

we felt it was a great

1:10:27

disservice to the community to

1:10:30

stop all these people's research. So

1:10:32

we didn't rejoice over his excommunication.

1:10:36

We felt for him that his own

1:10:38

people had turned on him. And

1:10:41

reading through the book, when I got through, I thought this

1:10:43

poor guy, he wanted to be

1:10:45

the greatest Mormon historian and

1:10:48

the greatest defender of faith. And

1:10:51

that very effort is the

1:10:55

one thing he was

1:10:57

cut off from really fulfilling. He

1:11:01

did his best to tell history the

1:11:03

way he thought. And

1:11:05

even though I disagree with some of his conclusions,

1:11:08

he was being true to himself on trying

1:11:11

to write up the church history. And I

1:11:13

can respect that in him. And

1:11:15

I felt for him that his

1:11:18

own church didn't value

1:11:20

him more as

1:11:23

someone who wanted so much to

1:11:25

be accepted by that community and have

1:11:28

them not see his value. So

1:11:31

I thought it's a very sad ending

1:11:33

to his life. I

1:11:37

felt bad for his whole family that it

1:11:40

just... He

1:11:42

accomplished so much, and

1:11:44

yet to end up alone in his

1:11:48

apartment at the end, it was just to

1:11:50

me very sad. Yeah.

1:11:54

And I would just add, talking to

1:11:56

his children, and I agree

1:11:58

with all of the things you said, The

1:12:00

only thing I might disagree with is

1:12:02

his children said, no, dad wasn't alone.

1:12:04

Yeah, he lived in California, but we

1:12:06

were in constant contact and

1:12:08

we saw him at holidays. So

1:12:11

they've never thought of their dad as

1:12:13

being alone. That was comforting for me

1:12:15

to hear too because, yeah, just to

1:12:17

know that he did have very

1:12:21

much the love and the contact

1:12:23

with his family. And he

1:12:25

was communicating with the historical

1:12:27

community too. He was mentoring

1:12:29

people, you know, Sarah Patterson, who wrote

1:12:31

the September 6th and the struggle for the

1:12:33

soul of Mormonism. She talked about being a

1:12:35

graduate student at Claremont Graduate University and D.

1:12:37

Michael Quinn coming and lecturing to them and

1:12:40

how kind he was to her and encouraging

1:12:42

who was to her. So I

1:12:44

do think we can, as a community, take comfort

1:12:46

in. He actually

1:12:48

didn't necessarily see himself as

1:12:51

alone. So that's comforting.

1:12:53

Yeah, the way he was rejected

1:12:55

by the church and

1:12:57

excommunicated by the church that he loved

1:12:59

so dearly and he wanted to help

1:13:02

by telling the truth about his

1:13:04

history. That part is very tragic

1:13:06

and it comes out throughout the memoir. Yeah.

1:13:09

Did you ever find yourself puzzled, Sandra,

1:13:12

by his continued belief after all he

1:13:14

learned? And if so, how did you make

1:13:16

sense of that? Well,

1:13:20

I guess people look at me the same

1:13:22

way, but the

1:13:26

spiritual side of him was a very big

1:13:31

part of his life and

1:13:34

he put great confidence

1:13:36

in his spiritual

1:13:38

experiences and prayer

1:13:41

times when he felt confirmation of

1:13:44

his goals and direction

1:13:46

for his life. So

1:13:49

I puzzled

1:13:53

how he could write what

1:13:56

he did and come out

1:13:58

the other side. and

1:14:00

say, Joseph's

1:14:02

the prophet of God. I mean, I go

1:14:05

through early Mormonism in the

1:14:07

magic worldview and I don't end up

1:14:10

with someone that's a prophet of God. I

1:14:14

go through Mormon hierarchy, origins

1:14:17

of power and extensions of

1:14:19

power. I didn't read volume three, so

1:14:21

I can't comment on that one. But

1:14:25

I get through those and it doesn't raise

1:14:27

confidence for me and- In

1:14:31

the leadership. In the leadership. Yeah. So,

1:14:36

I don't know how do you explain faith?

1:14:38

How do you explain spiritual commitment? I

1:14:43

find it very puzzling, but then I know a lot

1:14:45

of people say that about me. I don't know how you could be

1:14:47

a Christian and

1:14:51

be researching and doing history. How can you

1:14:53

still end up believing? So, I guess

1:14:57

Mike and I both end up with the

1:14:59

same question to a

1:15:01

lot of people, why? With

1:15:04

both of you, with your faith in Christ. Because

1:15:06

we both still maintain our faith in God.

1:15:09

And in Christ, and that's a fun parallel between

1:15:12

you and D. Michael. As

1:15:14

you both will have maintained your

1:15:16

faith in Christ until the very end.

1:15:19

I keep thinking of this empty chair right

1:15:21

here and wishing that

1:15:23

Mike was still alive and that

1:15:25

this conversation was going on within

1:15:27

here. Fortunately, all we have is

1:15:29

his book to refer to. But I

1:15:32

think it would be fascinating if Mike was with

1:15:34

us and could have this conversation with

1:15:36

Sandra now. Yeah, but that's the

1:15:38

way history goes. You can read the

1:15:40

same documents and come up with different

1:15:42

answers. Well,

1:15:45

any other, you wrote down some stuff

1:15:47

in that. No, that's good. Yeah?

1:15:51

So, if you had to

1:15:53

give a summary take on the

1:15:55

book and a

1:15:57

recommendation, anything else you wanna share? about

1:16:01

D. Michael, what would your closing thoughts or

1:16:03

comments be, Sandra? Well,

1:16:05

I think if you're interested in the

1:16:11

history of Mormonism, the

1:16:14

last 60 years have been

1:16:16

an important period of Mormonism,

1:16:19

and maybe you could say that about

1:16:21

every period, I don't know. But the

1:16:24

awakening of church

1:16:26

history and

1:16:28

the formation of professional

1:16:31

historians dealing with

1:16:33

Mormonism has been

1:16:35

that story of the last 60 years, the same

1:16:39

60 years I went through, deconverting,

1:16:41

they went through trying

1:16:44

to resolve all those problems so people

1:16:46

wouldn't walk away like we

1:16:48

did. And I think

1:16:53

that Quinn's book is

1:16:55

part of the

1:16:57

story of that, the

1:17:00

struggle of the church

1:17:02

historians to tell

1:17:05

the story the way they saw it, the way

1:17:07

the documents led them, in

1:17:10

spite of tremendous pressure from their own

1:17:13

church leadership, to

1:17:16

squelch that very

1:17:19

detailed history and give a

1:17:21

smooth view

1:17:24

that makes it seem that everyone

1:17:27

always agreed with everyone. And

1:17:29

one thing you find in Quinn's book is

1:17:31

how much of the different church leaders

1:17:34

disagreed with each other.

1:17:37

And I thought that was quite interesting. So

1:17:40

I think if you're interested in

1:17:44

how Quinn wrote

1:17:47

all those fantastic research books that he

1:17:49

did, if you've got his books, you'll

1:17:52

want to read his story. I think

1:17:54

it fills out the picture

1:17:57

of my Quinn story.

1:18:00

that you don't get from just

1:18:02

reading his research books. So

1:18:04

I thought it was fascinating. It helped

1:18:06

me have a fuller

1:18:09

appreciation of Mike and a greater

1:18:11

understanding of him and his

1:18:14

efforts at writing, even though we don't end

1:18:16

up at the same spot at the end.

1:18:19

I thought it was— In all the

1:18:21

same spots, but you end up in

1:18:23

some of the same spots. We all

1:18:25

end up still believing in Christ and

1:18:29

wanting people to join

1:18:31

us in serving God. So

1:18:33

in that— And loving history. And loving

1:18:35

history. And fighting history. Interesting. Right.

1:18:39

Yeah. But the details end

1:18:41

up a little different. Yeah. You

1:18:43

know, there's two themes that come out in

1:18:46

this memoir. One is

1:18:48

Quinn's life as

1:18:50

a devout and

1:18:52

for much of his life,

1:18:54

closeted, gay, Latter-day

1:18:57

Saint man. What

1:18:59

it was like to be that

1:19:02

person in the second half of the 20th

1:19:04

century. And I

1:19:06

love that yesterday—you just released yesterday

1:19:08

the interview with Moshe Quinn,

1:19:11

Mike's son, in which we delved into that

1:19:13

aspect of Mike's life and that part of

1:19:16

this memoir. And then I love that today,

1:19:18

Sandra's here, and we're talking about the

1:19:21

other major theme in this book, which

1:19:23

is Mike as a

1:19:25

historian who's a pioneering scholar

1:19:29

of Mormon history in the

1:19:31

latter part of the 20th century and into

1:19:33

the 21st century. He's

1:19:35

a pioneer in both these areas. And so

1:19:37

today's episode, of course, focused on that historical

1:19:39

side. And then anyone who wants to

1:19:41

look at his life as a

1:19:44

devout, gay, Latter-day Saint man can listen

1:19:46

to the interview with Moshe Quinn.

1:19:48

So we covered both aspects, those

1:19:50

two huge parts of Mike's life.

1:19:53

So viewers and listeners, here's your homework. Pull

1:19:56

up Amazon right now and fill

1:19:58

up your card with the following. Early

1:20:01

Mormonism in the Magic Worldview. Mormon hierarchy.

1:20:06

Mormon hierarchy origins of power and Mormon

1:20:08

hierarchy extensions of power. And

1:20:10

then round that out with Chosen Path

1:20:13

the Memoir, D. Michael Quinn and Lighthouse.

1:20:18

Help me out. Lighthouse.

1:20:21

Gerald and Sandra Tanner despised

1:20:24

beloved critics of Mormonism. The

1:20:27

biography of the Tanners is fantastic. And

1:20:29

if you want to throw something else in,

1:20:31

throw in the Leonard Errington biography. Leonard Errington

1:20:34

Diaries is the best one, which

1:20:36

is his annotated diaries by Gary

1:20:38

Bregera. That'd be a good read. Oh,

1:20:41

if you want to dig deep. Fascinating.

1:20:45

And then hold out for the

1:20:47

Post Manifesto Polygony book,

1:20:49

Yet to Come. Yet to Come

1:20:52

by Quinn. Alright,

1:20:55

well Barbara, thanks for all you and your

1:20:57

team are doing from George Smith

1:20:59

on Down at Signature Books

1:21:03

because we wouldn't be

1:21:05

able to be having all these conversations without the

1:21:07

great work of you and

1:21:09

Signature Books. And our

1:21:11

great authors and great subjects in these books.

1:21:13

And Sandra, it's so fun to get you out

1:21:15

of retirement. How does it feel to be out

1:21:18

of retirement? You have a homework assignment.

1:21:21

Yes, right. Yeah,

1:21:24

it's good. So what's it like being

1:21:26

retired? Have you enjoyed it? Is it

1:21:29

met your expectations? Oh, I love

1:21:31

it. Yeah. Do you want me to leave

1:21:33

you alone? Would you like me to leave you alone? No, I

1:21:35

don't mind popping in once in a while.

1:21:37

It's just nice not to be

1:21:39

required to pop in all the

1:21:41

time. I get to choose. So

1:21:45

are you ready for your next assignment or not yet?

1:21:49

Well, it depends on how big the book is. Okay.

1:21:52

Hi Barbara. We'll put our heads together and we'll come

1:21:54

up with Sandra's

1:21:56

next assignment. Fantastic. It's full

1:21:58

of informed consent. You

1:22:00

said you can either accept or reject yourself.

1:22:02

Okay. All right. All right. Well, it's lovely

1:22:05

to have you Sandra. Thank you so much

1:22:07

Okay, you're welcome back anytime in

1:22:09

our studio. We love you. All right. Thank

1:22:11

you and Barbara same for you This is

1:22:13

like fourth or fifth time like we got

1:22:16

time. Yeah, I'm meeting like stop Too

1:22:20

many good books to talk about. Yeah.

1:22:22

Well, let's have you back as soon

1:22:24

as we have another book Sure. All

1:22:26

right, and thanks for ever for

1:22:28

joining us today on more my stories podcast. This was fun.

1:22:30

Hope you liked it Please comment.

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check out benchmark books and and

1:22:54

All the other great bookstores around

1:22:56

town Support Mormon

1:22:58

scholarship support Mormon bookstores. What's the

1:23:01

one in Provo Brad Kramer? so

1:23:04

written vision and pioneer book in

1:23:07

Provo, I know that pioneer book

1:23:09

has signed copies of

1:23:11

chosen paths right now signed by

1:23:13

Moshe myself and annotators And

1:23:16

then also Ken Sanders is another great local bookstore

1:23:18

in Salt Lake City Benchmark,

1:23:20

I know has signed copies. So please support

1:23:23

local bookstores when you can. All right

1:23:26

Thanks everyone. Be good to each other be kind to each

1:23:28

other We'll see you all again soon on

1:23:30

another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care