0:00

I hope one thing is clear

0:02

after this week. I

0:05

never give up. I

0:14

believe I can continue to fight maybe

0:16

in a different manner. I will

0:18

not run for speaker again. I'll

0:21

have the conference pick somebody else.

0:25

All right, what a difference nine months

0:27

makes. Kevin McCarthy's speakership

0:30

is over after a small group

0:32

of far-right Republicans joined

0:34

all Democrats in voting to

0:37

remove him. We'll go through what

0:39

led to his undoing and what's

0:42

next for the House after

0:44

a truly chaotic, historic

0:46

day on Capitol Hill. Plus,

0:49

the other big story we are following this

0:51

morning, Donald Trump now under

0:53

a gag

0:54

order in his civil fraud trial

0:56

for what he posted on social media.

0:59

We'll go through what the consequences could

1:01

be if he violates the

1:03

judge's ruling. A

1:05

bad day in court for the former president.

1:07

Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe.

1:09

It is Wednesday, October 4th. Along

1:12

with Joe, Willie, and me, we have the host

1:15

of way too early, White House Spirit Chief of Politico

1:17

Jonathan Lemire, senior writer for

1:20

The Dispatch, David Drucker, and

1:22

co-hosts of Showtime's The

1:24

Circus, former White House Director

1:26

of Communications to President Obama, Jennifer

1:28

Palmieri, and NBC News

1:31

National Affairs Analyst, John

1:33

Hellman.

1:34

And Willie, obviously, just

1:36

the absolute chaos in the House,

1:40

which I think the Wall Street Journal editorial

1:42

page put it perfectly, the

1:45

lead editorial, Republicans

1:48

cut off their own heads. We'll

1:50

get to that in a little bit, but as

1:53

big of a story as that is, I've got to say what's unfolding

1:56

in court in New

1:58

York State.

1:59

Also, massive people

2:02

that have known Donald Trump for a very long time

2:04

say this is getting to him in

2:06

a way that none

2:09

of the criminal trials have gotten to him. And I think it's

2:11

starting to show.

2:12

Yeah, this is his entire identity,

2:15

isn't it? The big shot businessman.

2:17

This is how he was elected president. This is how he became

2:20

famous. All of those things likely

2:22

being stripped from him as we watch this

2:24

trial unfold. And now the judge reminding

2:27

him yesterday, you cannot go

2:29

after in a public way, members

2:32

of the courts, witnesses, other people. That's

2:34

not how this works. It doesn't matter who you are or

2:36

who you think you are. You cannot attack people associated

2:39

with this trial in a public way.

2:41

So we're going to dig deep into that trial in

2:43

just a moment. But we do want to begin this morning

2:46

with that history that was made in the House

2:48

of Representatives.

2:52

On this vote, the

2:54

yeas are two 16. The

2:57

nays are two 10. The

3:00

resolution is adopted without

3:02

objection. The motion to reconsider is

3:04

laid on the table. The office of

3:07

Speaker of the House of the United

3:09

States House of Representatives is

3:12

hereby declared vacant. And

3:15

just like that, last night, Congressman Kevin

3:17

McCarthy, ousted as House

3:20

Speaker. It's the first time in history a speaker

3:22

has been removed through a no confidence

3:24

vote. First time ever. The

3:26

final tally two 16 to two 10 with eight Republicans.

3:29

You see them there breaking from their party

3:31

to oust McCarthy after a far right

3:33

Republican congressman introduced the motion

3:36

to remove McCarthy on Monday after

3:38

his ouster. The now former speaker

3:41

spoke to reporters about his removal.

3:45

I don't regret standing up for choosing government

3:48

over grievance.

3:50

It is my responsibility. It is

3:53

my job. I do not regret

3:55

negotiating.

3:56

Our government is designed to find compromise.

3:59

vote today, but as I walk out of this

4:02

chamber, I feel fortunate to have served the American

4:04

people.

4:06

I leave the speakership with a sense of pride,

4:08

accomplishment,

4:10

and yes, optimism.

4:11

I fought for what I believe in,

4:13

and I believe in this country of America. My

4:17

goals have not changed. I believe

4:20

I can continue to fight, maybe in a different

4:22

manner.

4:23

I will not run for speaker again. I'll

4:26

have the conference pick somebody else. Pride,

4:31

accomplishment, and optimism, says Kevin

4:33

McCarthy. So now, Congressman

4:35

Patrick McHenry of North Carolina becomes

4:37

the Speaker Pro-10. McHenry

4:39

was chosen from a list of potential successors

4:42

that had been submitted by McCarthy back

4:44

in January to the House clerk. He is an ally

4:46

of McCarthy's. Since 2003, House rules

4:49

have required the Speaker to submit a list of names

4:51

of members to act in the case of

4:53

his or her vacancy. Republicans

4:55

now will hold a Speaker Candidate Forum next

4:58

Tuesday for the candidate

5:00

forward for the full House election

5:03

next Wednesday. So a week from today

5:05

is when they will vote for the next House Speaker.

5:08

So Joe, 270 days, nine

5:10

months, Kevin McCarthy lasted, and

5:12

this all goes back to something we talked about the day

5:15

it happened. On that 15th

5:17

vote, in order to become House Speaker, he had to

5:19

agree to the rule that one member

5:21

of the House of Representatives could raise a motion

5:23

to vacate the chair. A lot of people

5:25

said, oh, that's never going to happen. We said, don't be so

5:28

sure. And here we are today.

5:30

The other thing to note, no matter

5:32

how loyal you are to Donald Trump, no

5:34

matter how you rush down to Mar-a-Lago to

5:36

rehab his reputation after

5:39

January 6th, he ain't coming to save

5:41

you in the end. Loyalty is a one-way street.

5:44

Yeah, always been a one-way street. And when

5:48

he really was a fait accompli,

5:50

as soon as he agreed to one person being

5:52

able, Kevin McCarthy, one person being able to

5:54

knock him out, that's just bluntly, that's how

5:56

we ran Newt Gingrich out of town at

5:59

the end of 1990.

5:59

But

6:03

it is amazing. It

6:05

is amazing that the Republicans hold one

6:07

branch of government, one branch of

6:09

government, the House, half of a branch

6:12

of government.

6:14

And it's just absolute chaos,

6:18

madness. And

6:20

I must say, perhaps

6:23

you file this one under letting

6:25

calmer heads prevail, but to

6:28

go on a one-week recess,

6:30

I'm sorry, you don't have your, you know what,

6:32

together any better than that, to

6:34

go on a one-week recess

6:38

so they can get their thoughts

6:40

together

6:42

with everything that's going on in this country.

6:44

I mean, Jonathan O'Mear, when

6:46

they come back, you're still going to have 96% of the caucus

6:50

enraged at the people

6:52

who did this for really just weird,

6:54

bizarre reasons. They don't

6:57

line up. They can say what they want to say. They

6:59

can talk about the budget. They're lying because

7:01

they've never cared about the budget or spending

7:03

before. They can talk about broken promises.

7:06

I mean, so Wall Street Journal said, you

7:08

know, they're attacking McCarthy

7:11

for not passing enough appropriation

7:13

bills when they were the ones that stopped

7:15

them from passing the appropriation bills.

7:18

Here's the takeaway line, though. The ouster

7:21

captures the degraded state

7:23

of the Republican Party in

7:26

this era of rage.

7:28

That from the very conservative

7:31

Wall Street Journal editorial page who

7:34

is throwing their hands up this morning, like

7:36

most Republicans saying, what in

7:39

the hell is going on in

7:41

Washington, D.C., with Republicans? Yeah,

7:44

it is so important that we say

7:46

this is not the House of Representatives in chaos.

7:49

This is the Republicans in the House in

7:52

chaos. And Democrats yesterday

7:54

made the decision they weren't going to save McCarthy. They

7:57

didn't appreciate

7:57

how he badmouthed them in a series of TV

7:59

interviews.

7:59

over the weekend after they came to his

8:02

aid with the continuing resolution. He couldn't have passed it

8:04

without them. We showed that photograph

8:06

he took with Donald Trump in January

8:08

of 2021, just a couple weeks after

8:11

January 6th, which started

8:13

Trump's rehabilitation within the GOP.

8:15

That was the one moment perhaps the party

8:17

could have cut ties with him. We see now, of course,

8:20

they did not. They're also angry about the impeachment

8:22

inquiry that McCarthy commissioned into

8:25

President Biden. And

8:27

McCarthy has been hanging by

8:29

a thread for a while. Matt Gaetz

8:31

and others wielded this threat, the

8:33

easy move to call for a motion to vacate

8:36

to get what they wanted from McCarthy. And it was

8:38

never enough. Someone close to McCarthy yesterday

8:41

told me it was like negotiating with terrorists

8:43

and there was never able to satisfy

8:46

them. And there's pure fury within

8:48

the GOP against Gaetz and others

8:51

who moved to vacate McCarthy to oust

8:53

McCarthy. McCarthy

8:56

read the room last night, realized that he had no path

8:58

to holding his speakership. There had been some thought he

9:00

might fight to keep it even after the motion

9:02

to vacate. He walked away. And

9:04

now, Joe, the Republicans disappear.

9:06

The House goes out of session for a week. We're

9:09

only 40-odd days until the government

9:11

runs out of funding again. So that just

9:14

ups here the drama

9:16

and also just the disarray and chaos

9:18

brought forth by Republicans. Well, John

9:20

Hileman, somebody,

9:23

a source saying to

9:26

Jonathan O'Mear what many people said

9:28

is that they are like terrorists, but political

9:30

terrorists. But political terrorists without any

9:33

demands. I remember a question being asked, one of

9:35

them, you know, when they said, what else

9:37

do you want from Kevin McCarthy back when the

9:39

first vote was going back in January? They said,

9:41

well, we've really got nothing else to ask them. They're

9:45

just, again, Wall Street

9:47

Journal says members in safe

9:50

seats. And that's the thing. All of

9:52

these members are in safe seats.

9:55

Members in safe seats can fuel their own

9:58

fundraising.

9:59

careers to claiming to quote fight

10:02

against all and sundry without

10:04

doing any of the hard work to

10:07

accomplish what they claim to be fighting

10:09

for. We've been talking about how the Republican

10:11

Party's turned under Donald Trump into

10:14

the party of gestures. This

10:16

is the ultimate gesture shutting

10:19

down the United States House

10:21

of Representatives and sending out fundraising

10:24

letters while you're doing it when

10:26

you have no path forward when 96%

10:30

of the Republican conference is

10:33

against you. And yet just 4%

10:36

are able to shut down the House and

10:39

then fundraise off of it. Right.

10:43

And that's the sign of that. That's what's really,

10:46

really puts a fine point of what's going on here, Joe. I mean, I

10:48

have heard over the last 24 hours or however many

10:50

hours it's been since McCarthy's fall, you

10:53

know, the repeated invocation of the notion

10:55

that this is a Republican civil war. This

10:57

is not a Republican civil war. That's not this is not

11:00

the moderate wing against the conservative

11:02

wing or the establishment wing against the

11:04

insurgent wing. This is a party

11:07

that is not it's

11:09

not because of the queen is they're so deep. There

11:11

has been this kind of ideological

11:13

inbreeding. This is an argument

11:15

over tactics and what has happened over

11:18

the course and objectives

11:20

and what's happened over the course of the takeover

11:22

of the party by Donald Trump and

11:24

the MAGA wing that has become the whole

11:27

of the party is that all of these people

11:29

who are so mad at Matt Gaetz

11:31

and the other seven Republicans

11:34

who voted to send the House

11:36

into this chaos and take down

11:38

Ted McCarthy, they have catered

11:40

to that wing over and

11:42

over and over again.

11:43

They have never, they have given it everything at once.

11:45

And you know, when you keep feeding the

11:48

monster, the monster just gets stronger

11:50

and hungrier and more and more ravenous

11:52

and more willing to do what it's going to do for whatever reason.

11:55

Kevin McCarthy didn't just lose

11:57

because he made a deal with the devil. He

12:00

showed Matt Gaetz back in

12:02

February, January. He said basically, I

12:05

will do anything to be Speaker

12:07

of the House. And the one thing, Joe, you know

12:09

is that when it comes to political power and leadership

12:11

is that as soon as you show the

12:13

other side that you're willing to do anything,

12:15

there's no line you won't cross, there's

12:18

no principle you won't compromise, that you'll

12:20

do anything to get the thing you want,

12:22

you know you will not have that thing for very

12:25

long. And that is the perfect symbol

12:27

of what's happened with this entire ideological takeover.

12:29

The party is capitulated to the

12:32

Matt Gaetz of the world and the

12:34

progeny of Donald Trump and now they are

12:37

in their, they're in their thrall.

12:40

Those people who represent the most

12:43

distilled Trump version have all the

12:45

power and it's bonkers.

12:48

Yeah, it is bonkers. And Willie, John

12:51

is so right. He wanted it too much.

12:54

You can't ever want a position

12:56

that much. You can't give away

12:59

everything. You've set yourself up

13:01

for failure and it is one of the things I learned in Congress

13:03

early on when some senior member

13:06

wanted to appoint me to run a task

13:08

force and I had an aide

13:11

look it over and said, well, you

13:13

can't do this unless you're

13:15

set up to succeed. They have you

13:18

set up to fail. And

13:20

it was a really great lesson. You don't run

13:22

and jump at the first offer. You wait

13:25

when that offer comes in. You

13:27

got an ability to actually

13:30

succeed at the tasks that you want to succeed

13:33

at. Kevin McCarthy, we all

13:35

knew it and we all said

13:37

it in real time. Was so desperate

13:39

to be speaker of the house that

13:42

he set himself up for failure and boy,

13:45

it melted down yesterday. Yeah.

13:47

I mean, you want a job so bad, but

13:49

what is the job exactly? He was

13:52

set up for his speakership to be held

13:54

in the hands of one member and

13:56

that's exactly what happened yesterday. One member

13:59

took him out, got seven. and other people

14:01

to come with him. And Jen Palmieri, part of what

14:03

McCarthy needed is survive because of that,

14:05

because he knew he didn't have enough Republican votes

14:08

from this insurgent group. He needed Democrats

14:10

to help him out. John just did a

14:12

good job detailing the reasons why

14:15

Democrats ultimately said, you know

14:17

what? We're not gonna save you on this. You just opened an impeachment

14:20

inquiry. You authorized an impeachment inquiry

14:23

into President Biden with no evidence

14:25

that he did anything whatsoever. McCarthy,

14:27

you kind of walked away from a deal we had

14:30

on the budget, on and on and on. And they

14:32

said, you know what? We're not gonna save

14:34

your job. You've got to put in the work and build a

14:36

relationship for us to do that. And they

14:38

said no.

14:39

Yeah, I was on the Hill yesterday. I talked to a lot

14:41

of Democrats and asked them, I said, you know,

14:44

was this a tough call on your part

14:47

to not back McCarthy? Because arguably

14:50

chaos is not good and they may end up with

14:53

a worse speaker than McCarthy. And

14:55

everyone said no, like it was clear from the

14:57

start that the Democratic caucus was united

15:00

and it wasn't petty partisanship.

15:02

It wasn't like, oh, he was mean to us on face of the nation.

15:05

We can't trust this guy. You know,

15:07

we make deals with him. He walks away.

15:10

They made the deal with him in the spring to

15:13

pass a debt limit on spending. He

15:15

walked away from that. And

15:18

they just realized ultimately, we can't

15:21

save Kevin McCarthy. I also just think as

15:23

a practical matter, it would not

15:25

have worked. If Democrats yesterday

15:28

started voting for Kevin McCarthy, what

15:30

would have happened? I think Republicans would have

15:32

walked away from him, right? How

15:35

Democrats cannot prop up a

15:37

Republican speaker,

15:38

like if that ultimately was never gonna work.

15:41

Hey, Jim, let's really quickly here.

15:43

Let's talk about what you just said about Kevin

15:45

McCarthy not being able to be trusted because of all

15:47

the BS you hear coming out of Washington,

15:50

D.C. and all the BS you hear about like coming

15:53

from talk shows and podcasts

15:55

and everything else. You would think that everybody

15:57

in Congress and everybody in Washington lies.

16:00

to each other and everybody in Congress and everybody

16:02

Washington hates each other. It's

16:04

all showbiz for the most

16:06

part. They don't now members of their own

16:08

party hate each other. It's a very weird

16:11

thing. You know, find two strong

16:13

senators from the same state. Oh,

16:15

they always say they always

16:18

hate each other, but they'll smile at each

16:20

other. It's competition friends. But

16:23

I remember again, going

16:25

back to a lesson learned in Congress.

16:28

I remember very explicitly a

16:30

guy went up on the floor and

16:33

offered amendment after promising

16:36

in the caucus that he wasn't going to

16:38

the conference. He wasn't going to do it. That

16:41

guy was toast

16:44

for the rest of his career. Nobody,

16:47

nobody would trust that guy. Cause they, you

16:50

know, you can say there's honor among thieves

16:52

or whatever you're going to say, but it's like being a lawyer

16:54

in a small town. Yeah. You don't lie

16:57

to another lawyer because if you lie

16:59

to another lawyer, nobody

17:02

in that legal community will ever trust

17:04

you again. So it

17:06

is a, it is a strange thing that Kevin

17:08

McCarthy made so many promises

17:11

that members of both parties say he didn't

17:13

keep, you can't survive that. You

17:15

just can't survive it. Politics aside,

17:18

you got to keep your word on

17:21

the Hill. Cause it's a very small

17:23

boat. Everybody's rowing in.

17:25

And you know, two of the Republicans who

17:27

voted against him, Nancy Mace and Tim Burchard,

17:29

who I interviewed both of them yesterday,

17:32

they voted for him 15 times to be speaker

17:34

in January and each of them

17:37

walked away. I mean, Burchard was really upset

17:39

about spending. He also, um, he,

17:42

uh, you know, about like the, the CR deal and just

17:44

about spending in general and didn't see, didn't see

17:47

it getting under control. He was

17:49

on CNN on a Tuesday night

17:51

and said he needed to pray over his decision about

17:53

whether or not, um, he was going to vote

17:56

for McCarthy and McCarthy called him the next day

17:58

and was kind of condescending like. to the Lord

18:00

answer your prayer and Burchett's like, sure did,

18:03

sure did. I am not voting for you.

18:06

And you know, Nancy Mace felt like she had been misled

18:09

by him on a number of

18:10

issues, including issues

18:12

related to, you know, post post row

18:14

abortion.

18:15

And you know, those two walked

18:17

away from him as well for very different

18:19

reasons. Yeah.

18:20

Well, we have a lot to get

18:22

to here, including Donald Trump having

18:25

a gag order issued on him in that case, just

18:27

going from bad to worse for him. We're

18:29

going to be back in 60 seconds. And

18:31

when we come back in 60 seconds, I'm

18:33

going to have David Drucker take us inside

18:35

the Republican conference, tell us what happened

18:39

last night and also tell us who's

18:41

in line to be the next speaker of the

18:43

House. That's in 60 seconds.

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19:17

Environmental justice is a talking

19:19

point in every politician's toolkit. But

19:22

do you ever wonder where it all began?

19:25

On this week's ThruLine, we're taking you

19:27

back to 1978, where

19:29

a fight against a toxic dump in

19:31

North Carolina started the environmental

19:34

justice movement. Join NPR's

19:36

Climate Week and listen to ThruLine

19:39

wherever you get your podcasts.

19:43

I don't have a lot of advice for my House

19:45

colleagues other

19:47

than this. Know

19:51

your heart, but

19:54

take your brain with you.

19:57

The

19:59

American...

19:59

people expect us to govern.

20:04

And in order to govern, you

20:06

have to have a leadership. And

20:09

you've got to stick with that leadership to

20:11

give that leadership

20:13

a chance. I'd

20:17

also advise all of my house

20:19

colleagues to be sure and

20:21

take their meds.

20:23

Oh my gosh!

20:24

Wait a minute. That was

20:25

fabulous on every level.

20:27

But the first part of it is good, know your value

20:30

advice. I have to write that down. Follow

20:32

your heart, but take your brain

20:34

with you. It's

20:35

kind of like when James Patterson was

20:37

an ad exec. He wanted to be a novelist.

20:40

Well, he pursued it, but he kept his job. That

20:42

was Republican

20:42

Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana

20:44

with that assessment of House Republicans. And

20:47

we're going to talk about why Democrats did

20:49

what they did,

20:50

but you have a lot to unpack with David Drow.

20:52

I do, David. And I saw

20:55

you yesterday talking about the caucus

20:57

and rightly how enraged

20:59

they were at a small

21:01

handful of people who blew things

21:03

up. And I bet most of them were saying

21:06

what the Wall Street Journal editorial is saying.

21:08

Meanwhile, the House is frozen.

21:10

The GOP majority is weaker

21:13

and its ability to gain policy victories

21:15

has been undermined. Oversight

21:18

of the Biden administration will stop.

21:20

Republicans in swing districts, obviously

21:23

in trouble. The crazy left and

21:25

the crazy right are cheering, but

21:28

no one else has. David, how

21:31

enraged are the Republicans

21:34

at these few holdouts that

21:36

basically blew up their majority

21:39

and turned,

21:41

actually turned

21:43

the House over to the Democrats for now? Look,

21:46

Joe, I think what's clear

21:48

is that a number of House Republicans

21:51

are extremely angry. What's unclear

21:53

is whether they plan to at least try to do

21:55

anything about it. I think we have to step

21:58

back and understand that this is not a moderate

22:00

versus conservative battle. Most

22:03

House Republicans, and I mean the vast majority,

22:05

are as conservative as the next Republican

22:08

philosophically and would like to

22:10

govern that way. But there is a difference between

22:12

the pragmatists who want to

22:14

govern, who understand they have to govern, and

22:17

that means they have to make choices and divide a government,

22:20

and those who want to fight for its own sake

22:22

and have unrealistic expectations about what's

22:24

possible. So as I was talking

22:26

to Republicans yesterday around

22:28

Washington, some of them who

22:31

were extremely upset with the

22:33

small group that upended everything said

22:35

there has to be payback, there

22:37

has to be consequences to

22:40

this sort of behavior to make sure it never happens

22:42

again, and that the rules package

22:44

that the next speaker will live under has

22:47

to be a normal rules package

22:50

that gives them running room. And one

22:52

of the things that we simply don't know, regardless

22:55

of who the next speaker is, is whether they're

22:57

going to have any more room to lead

23:00

and govern than Kevin McCarthy has

23:02

had. You know, I've covered Kevin McCarthy

23:05

for more than 20 years. I was in Sacramento

23:07

as a Cub reporter covering the California

23:09

legislature when he was a freshman assemblyman, and

23:12

there have always been complaints that

23:14

he tries to get from one day to

23:16

the next without thinking about

23:19

how all of the promises

23:21

or deals he makes are going to work together.

23:24

And that may be fair. It

23:26

may be, it may not be fair. But one thing

23:28

that you and I know is true is that what happened

23:30

yesterday has really been building

23:33

in the party, particularly in the House

23:35

of Representatives for more than a decade, where

23:38

you've had recalcitrant members

23:40

who have wanted more out

23:43

of divided government than is humanly

23:45

possible because whatever Republicans

23:48

want to think about Democrats and their policies,

23:51

they're not pushovers just like Republicans

23:54

aren't pushovers. When you get elected president of the United

23:56

States, when you're the Senate majority leader,

23:58

when you're the House speaker. You

24:01

care as much about your stuff as Republicans

24:03

do about theirs, and yet, you know, pushed by

24:05

the conservative media, pushed by party

24:08

leaders like Donald Trump. They've

24:10

been told, no, just fight, just fight,

24:13

hold out. And if you just fight, then

24:15

the other side is going to capitulate and you're going to get everything

24:17

you want. And that's just simply not the case.

24:19

So 40 days from now, or by the

24:21

time they choose a new speaker, 40 days after that,

24:24

when it's time to work with a Democratic Senate

24:26

and a Democratic White House to fund the government

24:28

and the whole host of priorities that the American

24:30

people say they want, will the

24:33

new speaker be given the latitude

24:35

to cut compromises

24:37

that give Republicans some things, but yes, also

24:40

give Democrats something? We don't know

24:42

the answer to that. I mean, it's

24:44

just the reality, David. You're so

24:46

right. I have warned a president or two and

24:50

incoming members of

24:53

White House staffs in senior

24:55

positions. You need to understand

24:57

the most important

25:00

relationship you can have is

25:02

with the minority leader of the

25:04

Senate. If you're a Republican

25:07

and that minority leader is a Democrat,

25:10

or if you're a Democrat and that minority

25:13

leader is a Republican, that's

25:16

your most important relationship.

25:18

Start there and build out because

25:21

this is divided government, baby.

25:23

Nobody's going to get, I mean, there's a reason

25:26

why we have survived for as long as

25:28

we have. It's incremental. It's meant

25:30

to frustrate. And David, you're

25:33

so right. And the thing is these

25:35

people that are blowing things up there,

25:37

they have nothing to lose. They're in safe districts

25:40

where they're going to get like 70, 75% of

25:42

the vote. And so they get to

25:45

blow the House of Representatives up. They

25:48

get to set unrealistic

25:51

goals. And then they raise millions

25:53

of dollars from $25 donations

25:56

from across the country. Not

26:00

only that, Joe, but they'll go back home to their

26:02

districts and they'll be applauded for this. So it's not

26:04

just that they're in a district drawn to elect

26:06

a Republican. Their base of committed

26:08

voters, which is what matters in these districts, they're

26:11

going to get a slap on the back and say, attaboy,

26:14

keep doing it. We expect

26:16

a fight. And it's the fight that

26:19

matters. Anything you might achieve

26:21

legislatively is automatically suspect

26:24

because it's impure, because if Joe

26:26

Biden was willing to sign it and Chuck

26:28

Schumer is willing to put it on the Senate floor, there must

26:30

be something wrong with it.

26:32

Yeah. Yeah. It's called hold

26:35

your breath, everybody.

26:36

American democracy.

26:40

So,

26:41

so Willie, there are a lot of reasons

26:43

why

26:44

Republicans and Democrats didn't trust

26:47

Kevin McCarthy. Kevin McCarthy last

26:50

night had had defenses for

26:52

everything. But, you know, if you're

26:54

a Democrat, I will say I am,

26:58

I'm an institutionalist. There were

27:00

moments yesterday when

27:02

I said, man, I wish six, seven, eight Democrats

27:04

would vote present because what's

27:07

happening to a Republican speaker could happen

27:10

to a Democratic speaker and

27:12

you don't want to have one person

27:14

be able to blow an entire institution

27:17

up. That said, Democrats,

27:19

you know, he didn't get a lot of

27:21

rain. Look at what Kevin McCarthy said on the

27:23

floor, how outraged he was. And then

27:25

he visited Mar-a-Lago in pelt,

27:27

helped, helped, helped resurrected

27:30

every time he talked about January

27:32

the six, he was blaming the Democrats

27:34

for January the six. Uh,

27:37

you know, John Heilman has brought up, and

27:39

I know you're, you're talking, go there. But John Heilman

27:41

is brought up that he turned over security

27:44

tapes of January

27:46

six. He was so craven. We

27:49

could keep going down the list. This

27:51

was just a guy that would

27:53

do anything to survive the next

27:55

five minutes, just like Donald Trump. And nobody

27:57

could trust him at the end. Yeah.

27:59

And he turned over those tapes by the

28:02

assistant of the same members who he

28:04

who voted him out of office yesterday He asked

28:07

was asked yesterday about any regrets he had he

28:09

said well I guess the only regret I have is

28:11

supporting these eight people who just ran

28:13

me out of office raising money for them helping them

28:15

to get Reelected and he indeed did

28:17

that so John Hellman to David

28:19

Drucker's point about getting the rules changed so

28:21

this doesn't happen again I guess the question is why

28:24

would Matt Gates in that group? Why

28:27

would they agree to a change when

28:29

that rule gives them all the power that

28:31

they've been displaying for nine months in other words?

28:33

Whoever the next speaker of the house is may

28:36

again face this same conundrum Which

28:38

is that one member can

28:40

raise the motion to vacate and therefore this

28:43

tiny Minority of the House of Representatives

28:46

eight or ten members of 435 Wield

28:49

all the power over the majority in

28:51

other words, isn't this just going to potentially happen

28:54

again to the next speaker?

28:57

Well, it all depends really on whether anybody

29:00

actually learns the lessons from Kevin McCarthy I

29:02

mean the

29:03

whoever the next speaker is Cannot

29:06

if he expects to he or she expects to

29:08

have a different faith than Kevin McCarthy cannot

29:11

allow can be capitulate

29:15

completely to Matt Gates on this point once

29:17

this was the ultimate thing that showed the McCarthy

29:19

would do whatever he Would it would anything

29:22

had no limits of what he would what he would throw away Was

29:25

the agreement that this is the thing Gates won Gates

29:27

basically said to McCarthy I want to have your

29:29

political balls in my pocket Please hand them over

29:31

at McCarthy did and and

29:33

that if you do that, you know that

29:35

eventually you're gonna get squeezed

29:38

right and that's what happened to McCarthy throughout

29:40

the next speaker has to say no

29:43

to that and if that means that a Succession

29:46

of speakers it has to stand up

29:48

and defy Matt Gates He has to

29:50

be broken.

29:51

This has to be broken if the Republican Party

29:53

is gonna be functional again It's not

29:55

gonna still gonna be the MAGA party largely,

29:58

but you see people like chipper Roy, who literally

30:00

was like calling out gates

30:03

on, like yesterday, launched

30:05

an incredible screed kind of challenging to go a

30:07

fist fight. It's like, that's what the Republican

30:09

party needs. They have to break

30:12

the hold of Matt Gaetz and these

30:14

eight terrorists on their own caucus.

30:16

If they don't do that, this cycle

30:18

will play out again and again. And if that means

30:21

for a period of time they have to endure having

30:23

no speaker in order to get that,

30:25

the back tone of more normal order, then

30:28

I think they have to got to make that compromise

30:30

and live with that pain and point the finger

30:32

at Gaetz that he's the person who's causing this and

30:35

that caucus that they're, what's causing the chaos

30:37

that unfolds. It's the only way back.

30:39

So Joe Mika, let's talk briefly about who

30:41

might be the next speaker and have to deal with those

30:44

legislative terrorists. In the early sense

30:46

of it, calling around yesterday, Steve Scalise,

30:49

the minority leader and Jim Jordan

30:52

are the leaders in the clubhouse at this moment.

30:54

They both broadly appeal to conservatives

30:56

in the House. They appeal to some of those

30:59

far right wingers. Scalise

31:01

and McCarthy have been rivals for a decade

31:03

or more. There's no secret there.

31:06

Scalise, we should note, is battling cancer.

31:09

He said in the last day or so that

31:11

he feels good, that he'd be up for this challenge. We know

31:13

he was calling around last night, two fellow

31:15

Republicans meeting with the Texas delegation

31:18

today. That's the biggest Republican state delegation.

31:20

They wield a lot of influence. Scalise

31:23

clearly wants this job. Jordan making

31:25

calls as well. Stefanik, Emmers,

31:28

Cole, others mentioned, but all

31:30

of these prospective speakers are

31:33

going to have some trouble winning over some of the more

31:35

moderate or mainstream Republicans, those

31:37

who come from Biden one districts,

31:39

really those in New York state. So this will be

31:42

a real challenge for anyone to

31:44

get to the magic number to become speaker.

31:46

We saw Kevin McCarthy struggle with it back earlier

31:49

this year. Just every belief that that will happen again

31:51

and it comes against the backdrop of another looming

31:53

government shutdown. And

31:56

the thing is, I just would say, I

31:58

don't think it's about one member.

31:59

There's always going to, as long as you have this rule,

32:02

there's always going to be one member that's going to do

32:04

this step forward and

32:06

use this to raise money. They,

32:09

they, before they vote for another speaker,

32:11

whoever that speaker may be,

32:14

they need to change the rules and

32:16

they need to make sure that you have to have a majority

32:18

of the conference. Uh, if you're, if

32:20

you're going to actually, uh, vacate

32:23

the chair, that is the only way

32:25

forward. And the Republican party

32:27

should just sit there and wait

32:30

until they get that rule change passed

32:32

because right now they're just making fools

32:35

of themselves. There's a split screen in

32:37

America. Uh, yeah,

32:39

yeah. And a split screen in an America

32:42

where you have Joe Biden, a democratic president

32:44

with approval ratings in the thirties.

32:47

This is a very good opportunity for the Republican

32:49

party. And yet that split screen has

32:52

a four time indicted guy, uh, up

32:55

in Manhattan, about to lose,

32:58

uh, his ability to even

33:01

run a business in New York state

33:03

because well, he's been lying

33:05

and cheating and defrauding people

33:08

for 30, 40 years. And you know, it's true because

33:10

everybody in New York knows it's true because everybody's

33:13

been saying it for 30 or 40 years. And

33:15

then you got the Republicans in the house of representatives.

33:18

They can't even keep the joint

33:21

open. Think about that. They're

33:24

given, they're given

33:27

one part of government to

33:29

run one. They can't

33:31

even keep it open. It's

33:35

just bad news. They

33:37

need to set themselves up for success.

33:40

Senior

33:40

writer for the dispatch, David

33:42

Drucker. Thank you so much for coming on

33:44

this morning. We appreciate it. We'll see you

33:46

soon. And coming up, Donald Trump,

33:48

the other big story this morning, expected

33:51

to be in court again today for

33:53

day three of his New York

33:55

civil fraud trial. Just one

33:58

day after the judge.

33:59

Slapped him with a gag

34:02

order following a rant on social

34:04

media. We'll take a look at what might happen

34:06

if Trump can't keep quiet.

34:09

That's ahead on

34:10

Morning Joe.

34:32

Hey everyone,

34:35

I'm Tom Yamas from Top Story on NBC

34:38

News Now. Every night, Top Story is

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35:19

Here,

35:29

from a team that brought you Southlake, is

35:32

a six-part podcast series about faith,

35:35

power, and what it means to protect

35:36

children in an American suburb.

35:38

This was a kind of sweeping challenge.

35:41

From NBC News Studios, this is Grapevine.

35:44

Listen now wherever you pick your podcast.

35:50

I'm

35:54

Richard 638 in the morning.

35:55

Lights just now coming

35:58

on at the White House. For the first time ever.

35:59

a former president of the United States has

36:02

been slapped with a gag order. On the second

36:04

day of Donald Trump's civil fraud trial in New

36:06

York, Judge Arthur Engeran implemented

36:09

a gag order, quote, on all

36:11

parties with respect to posting or publicly

36:13

speaking about any member of his

36:15

staff. That came after Trump

36:17

posted a baseless claim about the court

36:20

clerk on social media yesterday

36:22

while sitting just a few feet away from her inside

36:24

the courtroom. On true social and

36:27

in an email to his supporters, he

36:29

insinuated the clerk had a personal relationship

36:32

with Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. There's

36:34

no evidence to support that. Trump

36:36

later repeated those claims while speaking to reporters

36:39

when the court went on a lunch break. During

36:42

that break, Judge Engeran summoned one

36:44

of former president's lawyers and his son

36:46

Eric to his chambers and told them to

36:48

take the post down. Once

36:51

the trial resumed, the judge issued the gag order,

36:53

but not before the Trump campaign sent

36:55

out a disparaging email about

36:58

Judge Engeran himself. If

37:00

the order is broken, the judge says it could

37:02

lead to quote, swift, meaningful sanctions.

37:05

Trump says he'll be back in court today for

37:07

day three of the punishment phase of

37:10

that trial. Joining us now, Bloomberg legal

37:12

and politics reporter Eric Larson. He

37:14

was inside the courtroom yesterday covering

37:16

Trump's fraud trial. Also with us former

37:18

US Attorney Barbara McQuaid. Good morning

37:21

to you both. Eric, welcome back. It's good to have

37:23

you with us again this morning. Take us inside the

37:25

courtroom as this all played out

37:27

yesterday and how strictly

37:29

this judge intends to enforce a gag order

37:31

that let's be honest, Donald Trump is almost certain

37:33

to violate.

37:34

Yeah, it was a real twist. I

37:36

think we were expecting some fairly

37:39

bland testimony, frankly, from an

37:41

accountant and that took a turn

37:44

pretty quickly around lunch when this, as you

37:46

mentioned, this gag order was issued.

37:48

I think that even from the behavior that we've

37:50

come to expect from Trump on social media

37:52

and attacking judges and prosecutors, I think

37:55

it took a lot of people by surprise that he went

37:57

after this particular clerk who was

37:59

very close with the court. judge and has been

38:01

in court many times over the past year

38:04

and even before the lawsuit was filed and when she

38:06

was involved with the judge's

38:08

efforts to get Trump to comply with subpoenas

38:11

and efforts like that. So Trump's

38:14

lawyers are very familiar with this clerk. They

38:16

have worked with her closely for a while now.

38:19

And so for him to take this pointed attack on

38:21

her, I'm not surprised

38:23

actually that the judge reacted

38:26

in this way. And the

38:28

judge does not, he's not afraid to

38:30

sanction Trump. You might recall that

38:32

he sanctioned Trump for failing to respond

38:34

appropriately to a subpoena in

38:36

the attorney general's investigation before the

38:39

suit was filed. And that resulted in a $10,000 a day fine

38:41

that ended up being about $110,000 before Trump

38:47

finally came into compliance. So

38:49

this judge is not afraid to sanction

38:51

Trump and I'm sure that he will follow through

38:54

on this threat if Trump does do

38:56

this again.

38:57

So Barbara, in your experience, what

38:59

power does a judge have and what power

39:01

does a judge wield no matter who the defendant

39:04

is, whether they stole a pack of gum or in this case

39:07

defrauded companies to the tune

39:09

of hundreds of millions of dollars, according to the

39:11

evidence in this case, to enforce

39:14

this kind of a gag order. Donald Trump has never

39:16

been afraid to attack judges, to attack

39:18

witnesses, to attack the clerk in

39:20

this case inside the courtroom while the trial is

39:22

going on, a punishment phase of it. And

39:24

what will happen if he does it again?

39:27

So judges have a great deal of

39:29

discretion and power in managing

39:32

cases that are before them. And

39:34

that includes ordering defendants not to

39:36

speak about the case publicly.

39:39

I found this to be a very refreshing and

39:41

swift move by this judge after so

39:44

many other judges in the other cases, pending

39:46

against Donald Trump, have been very reluctant

39:48

to impose gag orders. And the judge

39:50

has the ability to impose whatever sanction

39:53

he believes is appropriate. It's usually sort of escalating

39:56

levels of sanctions. And so I

39:59

doubt he would be chanced. jailed after the first

40:01

infraction, but perhaps a warning is

40:03

the first step, then maybe a fine

40:05

is the next step. But at some point, the

40:08

ultimate penalty the judge can impose is

40:10

to jail Donald Trump for contempt

40:12

of court if he continues to refuse to

40:14

comply with the order. So

40:17

Barb, I'm just curious, because

40:19

Trump does, just in terms of his behavior,

40:21

seem more angry, actually

40:24

personally angry than usual and not feigned

40:26

anger to whip up the base. And

40:30

I'm curious, does this seem focused

40:32

on his social media posts

40:34

or can the words that he uses

40:37

ultimately cause sanctions and consequences

40:40

as well? He was going after the judge

40:43

before this, loudly, to reporters

40:47

during these proceedings. So I wonder about

40:49

that. And also, what do you think

40:51

the constraints are on his

40:54

business right now, given

40:56

this litigation, this trial that's

40:58

going on? Well, with

41:00

regard to the gag order, the judge is

41:02

actually quite narrow in focusing solely

41:05

on the court staff. And I think it

41:07

goes beyond social media. It's

41:09

just the court staff. But I think it's a little bit of a shot across

41:11

the bow. It's very narrow now. But

41:14

if Trump should issue something that sort of

41:16

goes beyond the bounds of this, I think the judge

41:18

has made it clear that he will not be reluctant

41:20

to impose a gag order, even if that

41:22

needs to be expanded. With regard

41:24

to your second question about the Trump

41:28

business enterprise, the judge

41:30

already issued an order canceling the

41:32

certificates of various business

41:34

entities in the Trump organization.

41:37

And so for things like the

41:39

financial buildings in Manhattan,

41:42

the golf courses in New York, those

41:45

are now sort of on hold with the idea of appointing

41:47

a receiver for the purpose of liquidation. I

41:50

think we have to get through this week's trial to

41:52

determine what the penalties are because

41:54

the attorney general is seeking disgorgement of

41:56

profits of up to $250 million. And

41:59

so it be that if that is ordered, it

42:01

may be that those properties need to be liquidated to

42:04

satisfy that payment.

42:06

Let's move beyond the gag

42:08

order and tell us a little bit else of what happened yesterday in

42:11

the trial itself. And also what we should expect

42:13

today, there have been some speculation that

42:15

Trump would not attend today's hearings and he was going

42:17

to leave, but now he has said he will be

42:19

there again. How much longer do

42:21

you think that'll happen to? Yeah, we are expecting

42:23

him today. And I wouldn't be surprised if he

42:25

showed up for the rest of the week that he indicated

42:28

at least in a court filing and an unrelated

42:31

case that he would be here all week. But

42:33

we'll see, he'll be there today. There's

42:35

going to be another accountant on the witness

42:37

stand. Yesterday, his

42:40

longtime accountant, Donald Bender with Mizzars,

42:43

testified under questioning

42:45

from the state that he would not have signed

42:47

off on Donald Trump's annual statements of financial

42:49

condition if he had been aware that he

42:51

wasn't getting all of the documents necessary,

42:54

including appraisals of his key properties

42:56

that conflicted with what the Trump organization

42:59

had been telling him. And today we're

43:01

going to hear from another accountant from Trump's

43:03

new accounting firm, Whitley Penn

43:05

is a Texas based accounting firm. And

43:08

they actually challenged us a PINA earlier

43:11

in the case during the investigation,

43:14

trying to avoid handing over documents.

43:17

They eventually agreed to do that. So now

43:19

this is, they're clearly trying to set a pattern here

43:21

of showing what the Trump organization

43:23

handed over to their accountants to

43:26

illustrate what their actual assets are. Of

43:29

course, the other thing we're going to be watching for is just Trump's

43:31

demeanor in court after this gag

43:33

order has silenced him in a way

43:36

and he's not going to be happy about it.

43:38

No, not used to being

43:41

told exactly what to do. Bloomberg's

43:43

Eric Larson and former U.S. attorney

43:46

Barbara McQuaid, thank you both very much

43:48

for your reporting and insight this morning.

43:50

And still ahead on morning, Joe, Russian president

43:52

Vladimir Putin has his eyes set

43:55

on a new target. We'll explain what

43:57

officials are now worried he'll do next.

43:59

to end U.S. support for

44:02

Ukraine. Plus, we'll get reaction

44:04

from former New Jersey Governor Chris

44:06

Christie about Kevin McCarthy's ouster

44:08

and more. And Congressman Jim Clyburn

44:11

will weigh in. Did Democrats

44:13

make a smart move by not rescuing

44:15

McCarthy? Morning Joe, we'll

44:18

be right back.

44:29

51 past the hour, a beautiful

44:31

shot of Washington,

44:33

D.C. as the sun comes up

44:35

this morning and people are headed to work. Well,

44:37

yeah, except for people that work in the House

44:39

of Representatives. No, they're not working for a week at

44:41

least. That got shut down. The Republicans

44:44

can't keep it open. As the Wall Street Journal

44:46

editorial page said, Republicans

44:49

cut off their own heads. John Heilman got

44:51

a lot of stuff to get to. You have Christopher Krebs

44:53

here. Chris Krebs here. Can I talk to him in a second?

44:56

I wanted to bring up a couple of things with you,

44:58

though. First of all, let's let's think back to

45:00

about a year ago. Joe

45:01

Biden gives a speech in Philadelphia

45:03

on democracy with sort

45:05

of that red background behind him. You

45:07

have a lot of, quote, truth tellers

45:09

saying that Biden was an idiot to

45:12

talk about democracy. It was never going to

45:14

help out. One of the people attacking me was Kevin

45:16

McCarthy, because Joe Biden

45:18

said mainstream Republicans,

45:21

you need to stand up to maggot

45:23

Republicans or you will ruin

45:26

the day that you don't. And McCarthy

45:28

went crazy, said it was a decisive

45:30

speech. Joe Biden was dividing America.

45:33

Couple of weeks later, although so-called truth

45:35

tellers proved to be idiots, Americans

45:38

did care about democracy. And

45:40

Kevin McCarthy, Kevin McCarthy

45:42

left with a very, very

45:45

small margin because he did not heed

45:47

the advice of Joe Biden here. So I

45:50

mean, you know, the White House isn't saying

45:52

it, but my gosh, let's

45:54

say it here. Biden

45:56

warned them this was going to happen.

46:00

Another thing we haven't talked about really quickly,

46:03

we saw chaos and

46:06

anarchy on the Republican side of the chamber

46:08

yesterday. We saw extraordinary

46:11

discipline on the Democratic side

46:13

with Hakeem Jeffries. There were a lot of factions,

46:15

as you know, that wanted to break out,

46:18

wanted to roll over the extremists and

46:20

let McCarthy keep his job by not being there

46:22

voting present. Hakeem Jeffries

46:25

and the leadership kept that party together.

46:29

Yeah, I mean, it's extraordinary, Joe. And I'll just, on the first point,

46:32

just to, you know, Biden

46:34

warned them. People said he was crazy,

46:37

that Republicans had to stand up to the MAGA faction. McCarthy

46:41

gets this very, basically gets the tiniest

46:43

majority in the midterms. And

46:45

then when he gets to actually have

46:48

to do what he does to get to, the deal he has to

46:50

make to get to be speaker, he does the opposite

46:52

of what Biden suggested, which is he didn't

46:55

stand up to the MAGA faction at all,

46:57

and now he's paid the price for it. So he kind of turned

46:59

away

46:59

Biden's advice twice.

47:02

I would say the thing about Jeffries

47:04

is there has been a question. He's

47:06

in the most unenviable position in some ways. You

47:09

could be in American politics trying to follow Nancy

47:11

Pelosi as Democratic leader, following

47:13

the footsteps of a legend. And the question

47:16

has been, when

47:18

the big test comes of Hakeem Jeffries,

47:21

will he be up to meeting that test? And

47:23

this was a huge test yesterday. Tests

47:27

are like herding cats. And there

47:30

are lots of good reasons that you could have come up with

47:32

for doing a deal to help McCarthy

47:34

out. You could have made a deal for Ukraine aid. You

47:37

could have made a reason that the

47:39

next person who comes after McCarthy will be

47:41

worse than McCarthy, more untrustworthy,

47:43

more MAGA. There were lots of, and you've

47:45

got moderate institutionalists on the Democratic

47:47

side who just don't like chaos and don't

47:49

want to be part of chaos. And

47:52

Jeffries skillfully, through

47:55

both actions, small actions

47:57

like he took in the caucus meeting yesterday.

47:59

and larger acts of discipline, he

48:02

kept this unruly democratic

48:04

coalition together. There was not a

48:06

single defection away from,

48:09

you know, eight Republicans did this to

48:11

Kevin McCarthy, but 208 Democrats

48:13

did this also to Kevin McCarthy yesterday. And I think he

48:16

passed his first big political test with

48:18

flying colors yesterday.

48:20

Yeah. John Heilman, thank you very much.

48:23

John mentioned Ukraine yesterday

48:25

at the White House National Security Council

48:27

official. John Kirby reiterated

48:29

U.S. support for Ukraine despite the

48:32

recent drop in funding by Congress in

48:34

the latest spending bill.

48:37

As Ukrainians wage a tough

48:39

counter offensive, as their children

48:41

continue to get ripped from the bosom of

48:43

their families, and as winter fast approaches,

48:46

it is imperative that we help them take

48:48

advantage of every single day.

48:51

A lapse in support for even a short

48:54

period of time

48:55

could make all the difference on the battlefield. And

48:57

just as critically such a lapse in

48:59

support will make

49:00

Putin believe that he can wait us

49:03

out and that

49:05

he can continue the conflict until we and our

49:08

allies and our

49:08

partners fold.

49:11

Meanwhile, the New York Times reports that

49:13

Russia's strategy to secure

49:15

victory in Ukraine is to outlast

49:18

Western support. According

49:20

to the Times, quote, U.S. officials said they are convinced

49:23

Putin intends to try to end U.S. and

49:26

European support for Ukraine by

49:29

using his spy agencies to

49:31

push propaganda supporting pro-Russian

49:34

political parties and by stoking

49:36

conspiracy theories with the new

49:38

technologies. Joining us now, the former

49:41

director of the Department of Homeland Security, Cybersecurity's

49:44

Infrastructure Security Agency, Chris

49:46

Krebs. He's a partner in

49:49

the cybersecurity firm, the Krebs-Stamos

49:51

Group. So talk about, if

49:53

you could, just how they can impact

49:56

U.S. support for Ukraine and also European

49:59

support.

49:59

And are they already doing that?

50:02

Absolutely and I have to say

50:04

that i'm actually a little Taken

50:07

aback because my view was that they

50:09

were going to mainly target the 2024 election They

50:12

were going to try to get influence outcomes

50:15

and in the you know this time next year But

50:17

they've moved that they've been able to move their schedule

50:19

up a little bit With the current chaos

50:21

that's going on in the house of representatives and and there

50:24

there about three things happening right now one is this uptick

50:27

of Activity across social

50:29

media platforms information operations

50:31

to influence hearts and minds in europe and elsewhere

50:34

And at the same time we're seeing platforms

50:36

including twitter pull back On

50:38

the mechanisms that have been put in place over the

50:40

last several years including Some

50:43

of the trust and safety and election integrity

50:45

teams that they've built up over the last couple years

50:47

in the wake of the 2016 Election as

50:49

well as some of the tools that they have on the platform

50:51

including self-reporting of political

50:54

activity And this has really allowed a bit

50:56

of a devil's playground on social media

50:58

platforms Taking advantage

51:01

of a moment of chaos and continuing

51:03

to drive wedges across american and western

51:05

society

51:07

Hey chris. Good morning You've said that twitter has kind

51:09

of built the perfect platform for foreign manipulators

51:12

to get into congress to manipulate public

51:14

opinion And also to manipulate

51:16

of course parts of the 2024 election

51:19

process. Why do you say that? What is it about twitter

51:21

in particular that makes it so vulnerable? Well

51:24

for one reason or the other over

51:26

the last several years It

51:28

seems that some political officials have

51:30

started to view Twitter as the real

51:32

world and I think we all know that it's not the

51:34

real world that it's in fact a very

51:37

synthetic environment There are trolls

51:39

there are bots There are fake users

51:41

on there and you know, just because you say something

51:44

on the internet doesn't necessarily mean it's true And

51:46

at the same time twitter has pulled

51:49

back some of their capabilities just last

51:51

week They removed their election integrity team

51:53

that they built up in Dublin, Ireland And again,

51:55

as I just mentioned, they they removed some of the self-reporting

51:58

tools including the ability to pull

52:01

up and report an election

52:03

related or political related disinformation.

52:06

So this again, this has allowed a number

52:09

of different of the teams,

52:11

the fake news, the platforms that

52:13

the Russians have built up over the last

52:16

couple of years to get in disinformation.

52:18

And then at a time where everyone is looking

52:20

for the latest breaking news, they jump

52:23

on without verifying a post

52:26

or something that has been put out

52:28

there. And it just, it

52:30

spirals out of control effectively. So

52:32

Chris, there's no doubt that US

52:35

officials we heard from John Kirby there are deeply

52:37

worried that now it seems

52:39

like the US support for Ukraine is in question.

52:41

There was no funding for

52:44

Ukraine in the bill, the CR that was passed over the weekend.

52:47

McCarthy had said at least publicly that

52:49

he wanted to help. He's gone. White

52:51

House is unsure who they're dealing with now. So

52:54

what is your degree of concern there about the aid,

52:56

but also back to the Twitter point, isn't

52:58

the other reason why Twitter is the perfect venue

53:01

for Russian propaganda is because of who

53:04

owns Twitter, who see an Elon Musk seems to be actively

53:06

helping at times?

53:07

On the last point, I mean, I think it was pretty

53:09

concerning over the weekend with

53:11

some of the posts that Elon posted,

53:14

including the meme of Zielinski

53:17

not getting the

53:19

latest batch of funding from the US. Look,

53:23

we're at a moment we're building up towards 2024. The 2024

53:27

global election cycle is going to

53:29

be one of the most active in

53:32

recent memory. And this is Mexico, this

53:34

is the US, there's several European elections, and

53:36

there's Taiwan. So we focused a lot on

53:38

Russia, but we have to remember that China is also

53:40

incredibly active in this space and

53:42

META just a month or so

53:45

ago released a report where they took down

53:47

the largest information operation that

53:49

they had seen in their history of tracking

53:52

these sorts of campaigns. So it's a very active

53:54

space and we have diminishing

53:56

transparency and visibility into how

53:58

the platforms. are establishing

54:01

their content moderation policies, how they're

54:03

actually acting against it and what their interactions

54:05

with governments are worldwide. So

54:08

as things seem to get worse out there, we're

54:11

losing visibility.

54:13

All right, Chris Krabs, thank you

54:15

very much for coming on the show this morning.

54:18

We appreciate it.

54:19

Hey, everybody. It's Joe Scarborough.

54:21

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54:23

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54:26

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54:28

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54:32

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