0:00

This is an attack that I don't think

0:02

anyone saw coming in the

0:05

immediate. So was it an intelligence failure, Mr.

0:07

Secretary? Do you acknowledge it was an intelligence

0:10

failure? We will have plenty of

0:12

time to, the Israelis will have plenty of

0:14

time to look into that. All of us

0:16

will have time to look into that. The focus now has to

0:18

be on making sure that Israel has what it needs

0:20

to deal with this attack and

0:23

to make sure that its

0:24

citizens are safe and secure.

0:28

That's U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken

0:30

on Meet the Press, sidestepping

0:32

questions about intelligence failures

0:35

leading up to this weekend's deadly attacks

0:38

in Israel.

0:39

We'll get the very latest on the escalating conflict

0:41

with a live report from near the Gaza

0:44

border in just a moment. Meanwhile,

0:47

some Republican presidential candidates

0:49

are already spreading misinformation

0:51

about the attack, blaming

0:53

a deal between the Biden administration

0:56

and Iran.

0:57

Plus, we'll bring you a look at how the chaos

1:00

in the House, with Republicans scrambling

1:03

to find a new speaker,

1:04

could impact military and security

1:07

assistance for Israel. Good

1:10

morning and welcome to Morning Joe.

1:12

I'm Jonathan Lemire, alongside U.S.

1:15

special correspondent for BBC News,

1:17

Katty Kaye. We're in for Joe,

1:19

Mika and Willie on this holiday Monday.

1:23

With us on this busy Monday, we have

1:25

President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign

1:27

Relations, Richard Haass, and columnist

1:30

and associate editor for The Washington Post,

1:33

David Ignatius. Katty,

1:35

an extraordinary weekend, a tragic weekend.

1:39

Now we deal with the unfolding story

1:41

on this Monday morning. Yeah, so lucky we

1:43

have Richard and David with us this morning, John,

1:45

to get us through all of this. We have

1:48

tons of questions for everybody. We're also going to be going to

1:50

the region and speak to Rich Dengel as well. But

1:52

let's just have a quick catch-up of where we are, because we begin

1:55

this morning with the Israel-Hamas

1:57

war. The combined death toll at the

1:59

moment—

1:59

has topped 1,200, and that number

2:02

is expected to rise. The war

2:04

began early on Saturday morning. In

2:06

an unprecedented surprise attack,

2:09

Hamas militants stormed the blockaded

2:11

Gaza Strip, entering about 20 different

2:14

Israeli towns and communities. The

2:17

chaos stretched across land and

2:19

sea as thousands of rockets were

2:21

fired into Israel. Militants

2:23

were seen bulldozing through barricades between

2:26

Gaza and Israel. One of the first

2:28

targets was a music festival held

2:30

in the desert just three miles from the border.

2:33

More than 200 bodies have been recovered

2:36

from that event alone. Other

2:38

towns were then engulfed in smoke, flames,

2:41

and gunfire as militants went door

2:43

to door attacking civilians. Officials

2:46

say this was the deadliest assault Israel

2:48

has seen in decades, and it came nearly 50 years

2:51

to the day since Israel was caught off guard

2:53

by invading forces from Egypt

2:56

and Syria. On Saturday night, Prime

2:58

Minister Benjamin Netanyahu officially

3:00

declared war, saying Israel's

3:02

military will use all of its strengths

3:04

to destroy Hamas's capabilities. This

3:07

morning, Israeli officials announced they

3:09

have regained control of communities along

3:12

the Gaza border, but officials

3:14

stressed the situation is fluid as

3:16

clashes with the militants are ongoing.

3:19

As of now, at least 700 people

3:22

have been killed in Israel, and about 2,100

3:24

are wounded, according

3:25

to the Israeli Defense Forces.

3:28

Palestinian authorities meanwhile say

3:30

more than 400 people have been killed there

3:33

in the counterattack, and more than 2,000 have

3:35

been injured. Senate

3:37

Majority Leader Chuck Schumer confirmed last

3:39

night that at least four Americans

3:42

are among the dead, adding that that

3:44

poll is expected to rise.

3:48

Israel also believes that some Americans are

3:50

being held hostage. A senior

3:52

Hamas official says the militant group is

3:54

holding more than 100 people captive

3:56

in Gaza. Among them are women,

3:59

children.

3:59

soldiers

4:01

and other civilians. Joining

4:03

us now from the Gaza border, NBC

4:06

News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel.

4:08

Richard, thank you so much for joining us. All

4:11

day Israelis have been looking at images

4:13

of people who have been killed and of people who

4:15

have been held hostage very close to where you

4:17

are inside Gaza. What's the latest

4:20

situation there?

4:24

So we are just outside the

4:27

town of Zirul. It is an Israeli

4:29

community here not far from the Gaza

4:31

border and there

4:33

is an active fighting going on right now. If

4:36

we listen here you might be able to hear some

4:38

explosions in the background. Hamas

4:40

militants are firing right now rockets

4:43

from Gaza at Zirul. We've

4:45

seen some of them impact in the sky above

4:48

us just a few moments ago as the

4:50

Israeli iron dome system is

4:53

knocking them down. Some of

4:55

the rockets have, however, landed

4:57

in Zirul, Ashdol and Ashdod

5:00

and we are told that there are casualties.

5:02

So the Israelis are bombing

5:05

Gaza. As you said earlier there are hundreds

5:07

of Palestinians killed so far. That number

5:09

according to Palestinian health officials is

5:12

now around 500 in these

5:14

reprisal operations since

5:17

the Saturday assault which

5:19

was unprecedented here. We've seen rockets

5:22

many times fired from Gaza but we haven't

5:24

seen hundreds of Hamas militants

5:27

escaping from the Gaza Strip and going

5:29

on a killing rampage inside Israel.

5:32

A killing rampage that for now Israel

5:35

says has more or less

5:37

stopped. It believes that there

5:39

are no active gun fights going

5:43

on right now. So there are no places

5:45

where Hamas is still in control.

5:48

That wasn't the case just yesterday but

5:51

the Israelis do not know if there

5:53

are other Hamas militants still on the

5:55

loose. They just say that this mop-up

5:58

operation here in Gaza. southern Israel is

6:01

nearing a conclusion that there are no active

6:03

gunfights right now, but they are still hunting for

6:06

potential Hamas militants. There

6:09

is, of course, that ongoing hostage situation.

6:11

That is a major complicating factor

6:13

here, because in the past,

6:16

when there have been conflicts between Israel

6:18

and Hamas, Israel moves in quickly,

6:21

launches devastating attacks against Hamas

6:24

infrastructure in Gaza. But it is finding

6:26

that very difficult this time, because

6:28

there are dozens of hostages,

6:31

perhaps a hundred, perhaps more inside

6:33

Gaza, and Israeli

6:36

officials expect that they are being used as human

6:38

shields. As you mentioned, Israel is

6:40

mobilizing for war. The

6:43

army said just a short while ago that it has called

6:45

up 300,000 reservists. It

6:48

could be it is trying to secure

6:50

the country, or it could be that it is preparing for

6:52

another phase of this

6:55

conflict, potentially a ground assault

6:57

into the Gaza Strip, which would be

7:00

very risky for the hostages, very costly

7:02

for the Palestinians, and likely very costly for

7:04

the Israelis as well. So, Richard, as you were speaking,

7:07

we were seeing some images of those

7:09

young music festival goers fleeing

7:12

for their safety. We know that more than 200

7:15

killed there, just horrifying

7:18

images. You mentioned, of course, the complications

7:21

presented by the hostages being held there by

7:23

Hamas. We know from Senate Majority

7:26

Leader Schumer that at least four Americans have

7:28

died. Do you have a sense there from on the

7:29

ground, are there any Americans currently

7:32

being held hostage?

7:35

The breakup

7:37

or the makeup of the hostages is

7:40

for now a closely held secret.

7:43

The number of the hostages, who they are,

7:45

has not been released.

7:47

The Israeli media are talking about 100, but

7:50

really they're keeping it more

7:52

generic, talking about dozens. But

7:55

it would not be surprising. Israel and the

7:57

United States are very close. There are many dual

7:59

national. I've been speaking

8:02

to dual nationals this morning who lived in

8:04

in the road. So it's

8:06

hard possible, but I don't have that confirmed

8:09

right now. All right. We greatly

8:11

appreciate your reporting. Stay safe there. We'll be

8:13

checking with you later during the day. NBC News chief foreign

8:15

correspondent Richard Angle. Thank

8:17

you again. Joining us now

8:19

international spokesperson for Israel's

8:22

Defense Forces, Lieutenant Colonel Richard

8:24

Heck. Lieutenant Colonel, thanks so much for being with

8:26

us this morning. Please give us

8:28

the latest, if you will, in

8:31

the ongoing mission there in

8:33

southern Israel.

8:35

So Richard, your reporter on the ground

8:38

actually did told the story probably

8:40

much better than I. It means that

8:42

we're doing probably a good job in trying

8:44

to say or talk about the level

8:47

of this event, which is an epic event.

8:50

As mentioned, and he did it very well, more or less

8:52

on spots, we are now stabilizing

8:54

the community. There are still small

8:56

pockets. We've managed to gain

8:58

control. It took us longer than we thought. Back

9:01

in the communities around the Gaza Strip,

9:04

the gore and the carnage

9:06

and the inhumane activity

9:12

in Hamas in these settlements

9:15

are starting to unfold because we're now speaking to

9:17

the families. Understand that they went

9:19

through tragic, tragic events, tragic,

9:22

tragic events. But

9:25

we are managing to stabilize that. We are

9:27

now focusing on organizing

9:29

the area. We have deployed four

9:33

divisions down to Gaza, and

9:36

we're trying to organize the area to stabilize

9:39

the Gaza Strip and their communities where by

9:41

the end of the day, we should be able to evacuate

9:44

most of our communities and whoever

9:47

is left away

9:49

from the Gaza so they

9:51

can recuperate the

9:54

area to the center of the country.

9:56

time

10:00

ago ordered what he deemed a complete

10:02

siege on Gaza, saying authorities

10:04

would cut electricity and block the entry of food

10:07

and fuel to that area.

10:10

Tell us what exactly that means and

10:12

how long could something like that be put in place?

10:14

What's the end game?

10:17

So the end game at this stage

10:20

from the military perspective, I don't want to, I'm not

10:22

a spokesperson for our Minister of Defense,

10:24

but from the military perspective, we are now acting

10:26

to secure the border. There's

10:29

still areas where we haven't fixed the

10:31

border completely, where they breached. And

10:33

we are securing the border and

10:35

we're also severely targeting

10:38

Hamas targets inside the

10:40

Gaza Strip. Again, before

10:42

we run to the to

10:45

the to the gardens, I think we have to give

10:47

place to what actually happens here within

10:49

the Israeli public. They

10:52

started this. You

10:55

know, one of the tragic events when

10:57

I look at them is that they targeted

10:59

the air is crossing. So what up

11:02

a week ago, it was it was it was getting

11:04

there were more people coming in Israel for medical

11:06

treatment to work. And they one

11:09

of one of their main entry points with their ISIL

11:11

pickup trucks was through the air is crossing.

11:14

So before we start talking about the

11:16

Palestinians, let's talk about what happened

11:18

in Israel. And it was a dramatic, horrific,

11:22

and humane activity.

11:25

Colonel, are you surprised

11:28

by that activity, surprised

11:30

by the way that Hamas managed

11:32

to mount this operation,

11:35

carry it out, get through that fence,

11:38

get within 15 kilometers

11:40

of Israeli territory, even

11:42

attack an Israeli military base?

11:44

Are you surprised that they were able to

11:46

do that without Israel being aware

11:49

of what was about to happen?

11:51

So these are big questions that I'm sure they'll be talked

11:54

about. I'm sure there'll be books written about what happened

11:57

here with this surprise.

12:00

attack, which was said, we said it out

12:02

loud, it was a surprise attack, combined

12:05

offensive. This will be talked about a lot. Right

12:07

now, I think our directive

12:09

is to talk about what's actually happening on

12:11

the ground, is getting back

12:14

our safety and severely degrading

12:17

Hamas capability in the Gaza Strip. Sadly,

12:20

they've taken,

12:21

they're using people as human shields, and

12:23

all their headquarters are entrenched

12:26

in civilian community. There are attacks

12:28

from last night in Sajaya and Beit Qannon,

12:31

are where the launching pads for hundreds

12:34

of terrorists

12:35

that came into Israel.

12:37

So, Colonel, you spoke there about the human

12:40

shields, and I assume you're referring to the Palestinian

12:42

human shields that are frequently used in Gaza

12:45

and put amongst military installations.

12:47

But this operation is more

12:50

complicated than any the IDF

12:52

has ever faced before, because there are now

12:54

also Israeli captives, dozens of them

12:57

we are being told inside Gaza.

12:59

What are your options, given that

13:01

there are Israeli hostages inside Gaza

13:03

at the moment?

13:06

So, we're the People's Army.

13:08

Again, I'm bringing in a personal

13:11

perspective here, and this is something that is very important

13:13

for the people that are watching this to understand. Every

13:17

soldier that I have out here, even myself,

13:19

a child that grew up in my house, one of the

13:21

best friends from my daughter died,

13:24

we just found this just

13:26

before we came on. We got told that

13:28

we found this body in the division headquarters.

13:31

This is touched everybody

13:34

here.

13:34

So, the hostage situation is handled very,

13:36

very sensibly. The IDF is taking

13:39

control of this. First of all, engaging

13:41

with the families. A lot of families still don't

13:43

know what's happening. We're

13:46

slowly unfolding while we understand the

13:48

picture. It will take us some more time.

13:51

And yes, it's going to

13:53

be a very, very challenging military operation.

13:55

I'm sure there's diplomatic channels going on. They're

13:58

not in my sphere of responsibility. But

14:00

right now, the IDF is planning

14:02

to

14:03

severely degrade Hamas

14:05

capabilities. I repeat.

14:08

International spokesperson for Israel's

14:10

defense forces, Lieutenant Colonel Richard

14:13

Hecht, thank you for coming on this morning and our condolences

14:15

on that loss you just said. And we will

14:18

get into that. How could this have happened,

14:20

the intelligence failures? When Morning Joe returns in 60

14:22

seconds, we'll dive into that question.

14:25

We'll be right back in one minute.

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14:59

Hey, everyone, I'm Tom Yamas from Top

15:02

Story on NBC News. Now, every night,

15:04

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15:06

We take you to the front lines of the story where it's

15:09

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Story is available as a podcast so

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you can listen anytime and anywhere. Subscribe

15:23

now for new episodes every weekend.

15:32

Welcome back to Morning Joe as we continue

15:34

to cover the events of the war

15:37

and the violence in Israel over the weekend

15:39

and the aftermath still playing out this morning. We're now going to

15:41

bring in David Ignatius from the Washington Post

15:44

and our friend Richard Haass, former president of

15:46

the Council on Foreign Relations, to dive

15:48

into this. And David, I will start with you. I know that

15:51

the burning question here in your mind has been how could

15:53

this have happened? Israel has perhaps

15:55

the world's preeminent intelligence operation.

15:58

Their forces are... charged

16:00

with preventing something exactly like this from ever

16:02

occurring. What is your sense as to how they got

16:04

caught so badly off guard Saturday morning? So,

16:08

John, I'm just struck as I think we all

16:10

are by the scope and horror

16:12

of this, listening to the Israeli military

16:15

spokesman a moment ago saying every family has

16:17

been touched. Last

16:19

night his counterpart and another

16:21

spokesman said this is the worst day in Israeli

16:24

history. How could that have happened?

16:27

What went wrong? What was the failure of intelligence

16:30

and as I wrote in a column last night, was

16:33

simply a failure of gathering

16:35

the right information, but I think

16:37

of understanding that information. People

16:40

have likened this terrible

16:42

event to 9-11 in the United States, the 2001 attacks

16:48

by Al Qaeda. Americans

16:50

had ever imagined that Al Qaeda

16:53

could seize airplanes and use

16:55

them as weapons to attack buildings.

16:58

And I think Israelis may never have

17:00

imagined that their adversaries in Gaza,

17:03

Hamas fighters, have

17:05

lost terrorists in this case, could

17:08

use paragliders to fly into

17:10

Israel, could move so quickly

17:12

a thousand of them through the fence. There

17:15

was a failure of imagination

17:17

and in a sense of understanding. After

17:20

9-11 we went through a long investigation which

17:22

had turned out that so many of the

17:25

pieces of information that would have allowed

17:27

you to see the attacks coming were

17:29

in the system but weren't understood.

17:32

The famous phrase was an inability

17:34

to connect the dots and

17:36

see what was going on. Whether

17:38

we'll find that was the case here, it's too

17:40

early to say. I'm

17:43

sure Israelis are going to be haunted

17:45

by this failure. They have believed

17:47

in their intelligence service as their best

17:49

protection. They believed in the Iron Dome system

17:52

and its ability to keep rockets from striking

17:55

Israeli villages. But I think it's fair

17:57

to say that most Israelis simply couldn't

17:59

have imagined. that something like this would happen.

18:02

To say one final point, I

18:05

think the crucial question today is not looking

18:07

backward at the intelligence failure,

18:09

but looking forward in

18:11

trying to make sense of whether

18:14

this is going to become a much wider war.

18:16

The Wall Street Journal last night published an

18:18

article that said that Iran

18:20

had participated in the planning of this operation

18:23

and had given a green light, in effect, for

18:26

the operation. If Israel decides

18:28

that Iran was fundamentally responsible,

18:31

we have the risk of a much wider

18:34

war ahead with

18:36

US aircraft carrier task force steaming

18:38

into the eastern Mediterranean. It's

18:41

as dangerous a situation as I can

18:43

remember seeing in the Middle East. Now,

18:46

some US and Israeli officials pushed back

18:48

against that Wall Street Journal reporting last night, but

18:50

certainly that is the open question. And Richard, we'll dive

18:52

into Iran's potential role into

18:54

this in just a few moments. But just first,

18:56

I want to get your overall impressions

18:59

as to what you saw this weekend,

19:01

this incredible failure to participate

19:04

and prevent this attack. Give us your sense

19:06

as to what you see and what you think happens now. I

19:09

agree with David. It wasn't

19:11

a collection failure. I think the Israelis will

19:13

find when they do the archeology on this, they

19:16

had a lot of warning. I think it was much more an

19:18

analytical failure, a mindset failure.

19:20

They dismissed this possibility. They didn't take the Hamas

19:23

military threat seriously. I think

19:25

even more devastating for Israel, Jonathan,

19:27

it could be a defense failure as well. Why

19:30

was it that so many Israeli forces that would

19:32

normally be on alert against

19:35

Gaza and those parts of Israel were

19:37

probably in the West Bank? And I think

19:40

that'll be a real political issue for this prime

19:42

minister and this government simply because

19:44

it'll be a question of their priorities, protecting

19:46

settlers and so forth. So I think when ultimately

19:49

there'll be commissions of inquiry and

19:51

Israel, this will take months. Obviously, we've got to deal with

19:54

the immediate problem. But I think there'll be very

19:56

serious defense as well as intelligence

19:58

issues. I think right now for Israel. They're a dilemma.

20:00

They've got a major dilemma where dilemmas overused.

20:03

It actually applies here They want to send the

20:05

message that terrorism is unacceptable.

20:07

Obviously, they want Hamas to pay

20:09

a price They want to restore deterrence all

20:12

this argues for doing things militarily, but

20:15

you've got all the Israeli hostages to To

20:18

worry about you've got the history Israel's

20:20

been in Gaza. They left in 2005 It's

20:22

one of the most densely populated pieces

20:24

of real estate on the planet Earth. There aren't

20:26

good military options Hamas cannot

20:29

be totally eliminated give it its nature

20:31

So for Israel and for the United States is

20:33

their supporter the question is what do you do

20:36

again? You want to show that terrorism is unacceptable

20:39

on the other hand? You've got to think about how many

20:41

more military casualties do you want to take

20:44

are you prepared to risk international backing

20:46

and support? There right now is coalescing around

20:49

around Israel. So Israel has real dilemmas

20:51

about what to do from here on in So

20:54

caddy, of course these attacks come at a Was

20:56

already a very politically fraught moment for the Israelis Prime

20:58

Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He's

21:01

put judicial reform push questions

21:04

Investigations into into his and his administration's

21:06

conduct and a moment when his

21:08

relations between he and president Biden Have

21:11

been tense to say the least we did

21:13

see them together on the sidelines United

21:15

Nations General Assembly a few weeks

21:17

ago Counting this possibility of

21:19

an Israeli Saudi Arabia breakthrough. We'll

21:21

dive into that later But this is a tricky

21:23

moment for him and now a tricky moment for the White

21:26

House

21:26

Yeah, I mean Richard was talking about what

21:29

was missed there were things missed in the US intelligence

21:31

forum as well So joining us

21:33

now from the north lawn of the White House is

21:35

NBC News senior White House correspondent Gabe Gutierrez

21:38

Gabe fill us in on a couple of things I mean that

21:41

Wall Street Journal report pointing the finger directly

21:43

at Iran in terms of Planning the

21:45

White House is pushing back on some of that White

21:47

House also pushing back on the notion that

21:49

has been raised by some Of the Republican candidates

21:52

that this was financed by money that

21:54

was moved from South Korea To

21:57

Qatar as part of the hostage deal

21:59

the American got out, five Americans

22:02

who are being held in Iranian prisons. What

22:04

is the White House's latest position

22:06

and thinking at the

22:07

moment? Hi there, Kat, good morning. Well, several

22:10

points to get to you. You mentioned that Wall Street

22:12

Journal reporting that Iran

22:14

may have helped plot these attacks. As was

22:17

just mentioned, the U.S. is pushing back strongly

22:19

on that. Three U.S. officials tell

22:21

NBC News that so far they have not seen

22:24

any evidence to corroborate the Wall

22:26

Street Journal's account. And in fact, yesterday,

22:29

Secretary of State Anthony Blinken in an interview

22:31

said that he had not seen any evidence that

22:34

Iran was directly behind this

22:36

attack, but he did point out that Iran

22:38

and Hamas have had a long relationship.

22:42

And he also said that U.S. officials were looking into

22:44

whether part of this, part of the motivation

22:47

for this attack may have been to try and derail

22:49

those talks between Saudi Arabia, Israel,

22:52

and the U.S. of normalizing relations

22:54

between Saudi Arabia and Israel.

22:57

But this all comes at a very difficult time

22:59

for President Biden as he faces multiple

23:01

foreign policy challenges, including

23:03

potential fatigue over the war in

23:06

Ukraine, escalating tensions between

23:08

Taiwan and China, and also

23:11

that potential agreement that could be derailed

23:13

between Saudi Arabia and Israel.

23:16

So the president has been seeing a lot of backlash

23:18

from the GOP presidential candidates. They are arguing

23:21

that his weak leadership somehow

23:23

contributed to this attack

23:25

over the weekend. Foreign President Trump

23:27

and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, as well as Nikki

23:29

Haley, attacking the Biden administration

23:32

over how they've handled this. But yesterday, Secretary

23:34

of State Anthony Blinken pushed back on this very

23:37

strongly, the idea that somehow

23:39

these $6 billion in Iranian

23:42

oil revenues that were unfrozen several weeks

23:44

ago about the United States in exchange for

23:46

five American citizens

23:48

that were released, the

23:50

secretary is saying that not a cent

23:53

of that money has gone to Iran

23:55

just yet. And even when it does, that

23:57

it has to be used for humanitarian assistance.

24:00

assistance, and he said that any suggestion

24:02

otherwise, that that $6 billion was somehow

24:04

used to finance this attack, he called that

24:07

misinformation. So over the weekend,

24:09

President Biden is speaking on Saturday

24:12

in remarks here at the White House, also speaking

24:15

multiple times with Israeli Prime Minister

24:17

Netanyahu as he tries to shore

24:19

up support for Israel. Of course, you mentioned

24:22

those military assets that are now heading into

24:24

the eastern Mediterranean to

24:26

try and act as a deterrent as the White House

24:28

tries to scramble

24:29

to contain this attack and prevent

24:32

it from becoming a multifaceted,

24:34

multi-front regional conflict

24:37

in the Middle East. County?

24:39

And we should underscore, Gabe, what you just said there, that

24:42

not a dime of that money has been touched

24:44

yet. It's still sitting in a Doha

24:46

Bank. We heard from the president over the weekend, he does not

24:48

have any public event scheduled yet today. We'll

24:50

see if that changes. NBC News senior White House

24:52

correspondent Gabe Gutierrez, thank you. And as Gabe

24:55

mentioned, this comes at a moment where

24:57

there is fatigue potentially with

24:59

the war in Ukraine. It comes in a moment where the U.S. does

25:01

not have a confirmed ambassador to Israel. And

25:04

it comes in a moment where there is no speaker

25:06

of the House. And we will get into how the chaotic

25:09

scene in the House of Representatives, the Republican-led

25:11

House of Representatives, is shaping the U.S.'

25:13

response to this crisis when we come right

25:15

back. MSNBC

25:19

is going to be live here all night. Today's

25:21

news requires more facts. U.S.

25:23

officials say that Russia approved the

25:25

actions taken by Russian pilots. More

25:28

analysis. Our gun violence epidemic

25:30

is something no other wealthy country

25:33

has. And more respect. This

25:34

is not just about women and pregnant people in

25:36

Texas. This is about people across the country.

25:39

The world's never been harder to understand.

25:42

That's why it's never been more important to try.

25:45

MSNBC, understand more.

25:48

Chief White House correspondent Kristin Welker

25:51

joins me now.

26:00

With critical votes for counting,

26:03

and when power was held to a king, Kristen

26:08

welcomed at the moment. Now she

26:10

joins Meet the Press as its new moderator.

26:13

If it's Sunday,

26:13

it's Meet the Press. Sunday

26:16

on NBC.

26:23

About this time yesterday, I was jogging behind

26:26

me in the old city. When

26:28

I got an urgent call from

26:30

my chief of staff telling me to get back to

26:33

the hotel as quickly as I could, that

26:35

Israel was under attack. When

26:37

I got back to the hotel, I joined others in the bomb

26:39

shelter or the stairwells of the

26:41

hotel. Frightened faces that

26:43

were children and elderly families,

26:46

many Americans. There

26:48

was a sense of

26:51

fear and worry and

26:53

a knowledge to many of us that there

26:55

were horrific things going on around the country

26:58

at that time. We who believe

27:00

in peace and freedom and human

27:02

rights, for Palestinians,

27:04

for Israelis, for all humankind,

27:07

must reject those who use terror

27:10

as their weapon.

27:12

Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey, with that

27:14

post on social media about the attacks, he

27:17

was in Israel ahead of a summit

27:20

on the Abraham Accords. He's back safely

27:22

in the U.S. now. Representative Dan Goldman

27:24

of New York was also in Israel attending

27:26

a bar mitzvah. He had a shelter in place during

27:29

some rocket launches, but he also has safely

27:31

returned home. Richard Haas, let's

27:34

talk a little bit about two

27:36

things. First, what we started

27:38

as I mentioned before the break about this precarious

27:41

moment for Prime Minister Netanyahu, you

27:43

know, with these attacks, that would tell us

27:45

what you suspect his immediate

27:48

and long-term future looks like, but also more

27:50

pressingly, the war itself. Where

27:52

could this, is this going to remain in your estimation,

27:55

you know, where it is now, or does this have

27:57

a chance to really spiral to increase to a

27:59

number of fronts? and a number of other

28:01

nations being involved. It could

28:03

stay where it is. If Hamas's goal were simply

28:05

to demonstrate that only it can promote

28:08

the interests of Palestinians as they see

28:10

it, to set up a swap between

28:12

Hamas prisoners in Israel for hostages,

28:15

so it could stay where it is. I think

28:17

the odds are slightly against it given the Israeli military

28:19

action, given the dynamics that have been set in place.

28:22

Big question is what does Hezbollah do? As

28:25

strong as Hamas is, Hezbollah is incomparably

28:27

stronger. Hundreds of thousands of missiles

28:29

or rockets that could go into Israel. Also

28:32

questions, does this spread to the West Bank? Does it spread

28:34

to Jerusalem? If Iran was involved,

28:36

are there military actions taken against Iran?

28:39

So this can spread in all sorts

28:41

of ways. But I would think the thing to keep the

28:43

biggest eye on is what happens in southern

28:45

Lebanon. Does Hezbollah, perhaps

28:48

at Iranian prompting, decide to enter

28:50

the fray? So, Kadi, a

28:52

lot of eyes, obviously, on that report we just mentioned

28:55

about whether Iran played a direct role in

28:57

this. There's been some pushback.

28:59

But certainly if it does come out that Iran

29:02

was promoting this, one

29:05

imagines Israel will take some significant

29:07

steps in return.

29:09

Yeah, that's all

29:11

happening now behind the scenes with the intelligence

29:13

investigation clearly on how

29:15

this happened and what was missed. But the Israelis

29:18

face an incredibly urgent and very

29:20

difficult calculation even

29:22

more immediately, which is what to do about

29:24

those Israelis and foreigners. There

29:26

are Germans there, there are Americans there, there are Brazilians

29:29

and Mexicans who are also reported to be there

29:31

as well. What happens to those people who

29:33

are being held at the moment as we understand it in tunnels

29:36

underneath Gaza? I mean, David,

29:38

if you were sitting in Tel Aviv

29:42

or Jerusalem at the moment trying to figure out

29:44

what your options are, if

29:46

you're the IDF or if you're Mossad or

29:49

whichever of the security forces you are, what are

29:51

the options for the Israelis? And

29:54

their practice in the past has been

29:56

to go in very hard to Gaza and we've seen some

29:58

of that, but it must be complicated. complicated

30:01

by those Israelis who are being held there.

30:03

So I think it's a logisticians,

30:06

a military planners nightmare. The

30:09

typical Israeli response would have been to go in

30:12

hard and in the immediate aftermath

30:15

of this attack on Saturday, the expectation

30:18

was that there would be a re-invasion of

30:20

Gaza. Netanyahu's

30:22

words seem to imply that. As we

30:24

learn just how many hostages had

30:27

been taken and were being

30:29

kept hidden away

30:31

inside Gaza, the problems

30:34

with mounting that kind of invasion became more

30:36

clear. These hostages will

30:39

be human shields in a particularly

30:43

devastating way. Israelis

30:46

just abhor the loss of Israeli

30:48

life, do anything that they can to avoid

30:50

it. When hostages are taken, they go

30:52

to extraordinary lengths to get them out. So

30:55

planning this military operation in a

30:57

way that preserves

30:59

to the extent possible Israeli life but also

31:02

re-establishes deterrence. Let's

31:05

remember what happened here was that Israel's

31:08

deterrence, Israel's ability to scare

31:10

people into not doing extraordinary

31:14

attacks like this failed. And

31:17

so they've got to somehow re-establish

31:19

that. And I think finally the question

31:22

is, do they want to re-conquer Gaza?

31:24

Do they want to administer that really

31:28

dreadful, difficult, small

31:30

quarters? It's like an overgrown refugee

31:33

camp when I visited in the past.

31:35

Do they want to take that over again or do

31:38

they want to hold back from that? I'm sure they're talking

31:41

to the Jordanians, the Egyptians,

31:43

other Arab countries. I just would know

31:45

one more thing. Something

31:48

really important was just over the horizon

31:50

in Israeli normalization with Saudi Arabia.

31:53

That would be a transforming event.

31:56

It would effectively signal

31:58

the end of the Arab-Israeli conflict. conflict. I

32:00

think the Iranians were frightened

32:03

about it. They would overturn their

32:05

basic ordering principle

32:07

for their own foreign policy that

32:09

every reason to try to derail that. Will

32:12

the US and Israel push forward

32:14

with that? The Saudi initial response was

32:16

not all that supportive of Israel, but

32:19

will there be efforts over the coming week to

32:21

get Saudis to speak up and condemn

32:24

this invasion? Then you'd see

32:26

a positive prospect

32:28

for Israel to have partners to

32:31

deal with the nightmare of Hamas, to

32:33

deal with Gaza going forward,

32:36

to re-establish some kind of Palestinian

32:38

authority that's not based

32:40

in in hostile taking and terrorist

32:43

attacks.

32:44

Those are live pictures, by the way, from Gaza

32:46

that we're looking at at the moment. It's 1.35 in

32:48

the afternoon, so early afternoon in the

32:50

region at the moment. And clearly some of

32:53

that smoke billowing up from attacks

32:55

on Gaza by the Israelis that are still happening.

32:58

You've been writing about the intelligence failures, David.

33:00

And at the end of your piece you

33:03

wrote this, when we say that the Gaza outrage was

33:05

an Israeli version of 9-11, we should

33:07

remember the other big lesson of that catastrophe

33:09

other than our failure to see it coming. The

33:12

United States overreacted. It didn't

33:14

simply take revenge and destroy its enemies. It

33:17

sought to remake the Middle East with long,

33:19

mostly fruitless wars in Iraq

33:21

and Afghanistan. Is there a risk that

33:23

Israel now

33:24

overreacts as well?

33:26

So I hope

33:28

that Israeli planners are thinking about

33:31

the longer term process

33:34

that they want to set in motion. I watched

33:38

in 1982 when I was a young correspondent,

33:40

the Israelis overreact

33:44

in what many Israelis now

33:46

would say was an unwise

33:48

invasion of Lebanon to go

33:50

after the PLO strongholds in Beirut.

33:54

That operation was very

33:56

difficult. Many Israelis would say it left the country

33:58

weaker than it had been before. So

34:01

I think that's the kind of parallel that the

34:03

military planners should be thinking about.

34:07

Obviously, the danger here is of

34:10

moving into a much wider war that

34:12

involves Iran directly, that involves Hezbollah,

34:15

in Lebanon directly, that would involve Syria,

34:18

Israel is surrounded. A

34:22

factor that I'm very curious about is whether

34:26

China, which has been brokering

34:28

some kind of de-escalation

34:31

between Saudi Arabia and Iran, will

34:33

be brought into the diplomatic part

34:35

of this to try to stabilize things,

34:37

to make contact with Iran through

34:40

Iran, make contact with others

34:42

in the Arab world. But it's just we don't know

34:44

what's ahead. All we know is it's really

34:47

dangerous. All right, we'll

34:49

have much, much more on this

34:51

conversation in just a moment. I'm still ahead here also

34:53

on Morning Joe. What Senator Tommy Tuberville

34:56

is saying about how the attacks in Israel

34:58

could impact his blockade on military

35:00

promotions, plus we're getting reaction

35:03

from some Republican presidential candidate,

35:06

why they're blaming the Biden administration

35:08

for the attacks. We'll provide a fact check.

35:11

And then tomorrow, one of those GOP candidates,

35:13

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, will

35:16

join Morning Joe for a live

35:18

interview. That's tomorrow. You're

35:20

not going to want to miss it. We'll be right back. Welcome

35:30

back to Morning Joe. The sun is rising

35:33

at 6.42 a.m. in Washington,

35:36

D.C., a beautiful shot. And it will be in Washington,

35:38

where the House GOP will hold a meeting

35:40

later today, kicking off a week of jockeying

35:43

among Republicans interested in becoming

35:45

the next House Speaker after Kevin McCarthy

35:48

was ousted from that post last week. Currently,

35:52

the number two Republican in the House, Steve

35:54

Scalise, is in a two-way race with

35:56

Jim Jordan, a leader of the party's

35:58

conservative wing. as they vied

36:00

to lead the chamber. This evening, the

36:02

Republican Conference will meet behind closed

36:05

doors for a members-only meet discussion.

36:08

According to the invitation, phones are to be checked

36:10

at the door and staff members are not

36:13

allowed in the gathering. Tomorrow,

36:15

the conference will hold a candidate forum.

36:18

Then on Wednesday, the conference plans

36:20

to hold an internal election

36:22

for speaker, which could be

36:25

followed by a potential House vote, but

36:27

I'll just say, very few people in Washington I speak to

36:29

thinks this calendar is going to stick and

36:32

then we get a speaker as soon as Wednesday and someone

36:34

who's been following this so very closely, NBC

36:36

News Capitol Hill correspondent Ali

36:39

Vitali. So Ali, walk us through what we might see the

36:41

next couple of days and the complications

36:43

now provided by the war in Israel.

36:45

Yeah, I'm with you personally, Jonathan,

36:47

that we're not going to see this come to a full

36:49

consensus on Wednesday. And that's

36:51

a problem on a few fronts. The first front is,

36:54

of course, that it helps the House to have a

36:56

speaker. It's not just a nice to have thing,

36:58

though. The current situation in Israel

37:00

is a reminder that having a speaker

37:03

pro tempore, which the House has right

37:05

now and Patrick McHenry, means that

37:07

he's pretty powerless in terms of actively

37:10

being able to bring things to the floor, whether

37:12

that be resolutions condemning

37:14

Hamas, which several lawmakers say they're

37:16

working on right now, or things

37:18

that are more serious in nature, like how do you

37:20

get aid to this country and to our allies?

37:23

All of that is going to be in the mix as lawmakers

37:25

come back to town this week. But I'm not entirely

37:28

sure that it shakes things loose in a constructive

37:31

fashion for Republicans to have

37:33

an easier time choosing the next leader

37:35

of their party in the House. That's

37:37

because when you think about people like Steve Scalise and

37:40

Jim Jordan, yes, the race winnowed

37:42

technically from three to two. Kevin

37:44

Hearn, the Republican from Oklahoma, dropped

37:47

out in recent days. But I have a

37:49

hard time seeing, especially

37:52

Jim Jordan, although he has the endorsement

37:54

of someone like Donald Trump, I'm not really of the mindset

37:57

that Trump moves votes on Capitol

37:59

Hill. But I have a hard time seeing

38:02

moderate Republicans in tough to

38:04

defend districts. I'm thinking like my

38:06

home district in New York, it's going to

38:08

be hard for them to get behind a firebrand

38:10

like Jim Jordan and then go back home

38:13

to their district and play defense against those

38:15

attack ads. I think all of that is going

38:17

to make it really difficult for Republicans to get

38:19

in a room on Wednesday and come to a

38:21

consensus. I've been wrong before.

38:24

We could see that. Maybe some of the Republicans

38:26

who went on the Sunday shows this weekend and said they

38:28

think it's going to be an easy time. Maybe they're

38:30

right. But if there's anything that we've

38:32

seen on Capitol Hill lately is that nothing

38:35

is easy. Everything is chaos.

38:37

And I don't expect this week to be any different.

38:40

And in a crisis, it would be a good moment to have

38:42

leadership in Congress and of course, leadership

38:45

in the military as well. Right.

38:48

I mean, a good moment to have that Republican Senator Tommy

38:50

Tuberville, however, of Alabama. Well,

38:52

he's standing firm on his months long blockade

38:55

on hundreds of military promotions, despite

38:57

that deadly conflict in Israel. Tuberville's

38:59

blockade has put a hold on at least 300 military

39:03

nominees, including top officers

39:05

who would command horses in the Middle

39:07

East, including Rear Admiral George

39:09

Wyckoff, who is slated to lead the Fifth

39:11

Fleet that includes naval forces operating

39:14

in the Middle East at the moment. The current Fifth

39:16

Fleet commander, Vice Admiral Brad Cooper, is

39:18

supposed to be promoted to deputy commander

39:21

of U.S. CENTCOM, which oversees

39:24

troops and military operations in

39:26

the Middle East region. But that promotion is also

39:28

being held up by Tuberville. In a statement,

39:30

Tuberville's office reaffirmed his stance

39:33

and suggested Democrats could call each

39:36

of the hundreds of nominations for individual

39:38

votes. That process would take hundreds

39:41

of hours, however. The Republican

39:43

Senator has maintained the promotions blockade

39:46

to protest the Defense Department's

39:49

policy that gives time off and

39:51

reimbursements for service members

39:53

and their family members seeking abortions

39:56

out of state. It does in like

39:59

an extraordinary time. America not to have

40:01

the people in place that it needs in CENTCOM

40:03

and in the Fifth Fleet, just as that Fifth Fleet

40:06

Alley is moving closer to

40:08

the region. Is there anyone there on

40:10

Capitol Hill, presumably on the Senate side?

40:13

I'm not sure where that leadership would come from, but

40:15

who could put pressure on Senator Tuberville

40:17

to say, listen, you know, okay, we get

40:19

the stance, but right now, U.S.

40:22

forces are in a position

40:24

where they could materially aid our

40:26

key ally in the region, Israel, and we need

40:28

those promotions in post.

40:30

Of course, the landscape has changed over the course

40:32

of the last two to three days, Caddy, but

40:35

pressure has already been on the Senator from

40:37

Alabama, and it does feel like

40:39

at each turn, when there is an opportunity

40:42

for an exit ramp, he does not take

40:44

it and continues to hold his ground here.

40:46

We did see the confirmation of three

40:49

key postings. That was something

40:51

that Senator Chuck Schumer did a few

40:53

weeks ago. But as you mentioned, it would

40:55

take hours to go through each

40:58

of these positions one by one and

41:00

confirm them. The national security

41:02

concerns here are not new. From the moment

41:04

that Tuberville began this blockade and

41:07

these promotions started piling up, experts

41:09

and national security officials were clear. This

41:12

is endangering U.S. national security. That

41:14

has not changed Tuberville's mind. It's

41:17

going to be interesting to see whether or not Israel

41:19

now being a factor implicates or

41:21

changes anything in the mind of the Senator.

41:24

But I do think it's important to note, we're not

41:26

going to see senators back this week. They

41:28

are out of town on recess,

41:31

some of them on codels across the country,

41:33

I'm sorry, across the world. That's

41:35

going to be something that keeps them far from Washington.

41:37

They're still getting briefed. But in terms of us being

41:39

able to press Senator Tuberville, that's not

41:42

something that we're going to see. And I think there's also the open

41:44

question of now that Israel is part of

41:46

the landscape, how does this impact the conversation

41:48

around Ukraine aid, especially as some Republican

41:51

senators have been reticent to give there but

41:53

are calling for aid to Israel now.

41:55

Yeah, we'll dive into that. A little

41:57

complication in a little while. NBC News, Captain. He'll

42:00

correspond to Al-Vatali. Thank you. Busy few days

42:02

ahead for you. We appreciate it coming

42:04

up here on morning, Joe We're gonna go live to

42:06

Tel Aviv for the latest on the war with Hamas

42:09

and what the US is doing to assist

42:11

and support Israel Plus an

42:13

analysis from retired Navy Admiral

42:16

James Travretas He was in charge of

42:18

US Israeli military cooperation

42:20

for four years We'll get his take

42:23

on what's coming next following what

42:25

he deems a 9-11 level event Also

42:29

ahead the ranking Democrat on the House

42:31

Foreign Affairs Committee Congressman Gregory

42:34

Meeks will join the conversation Morning, Joe.

42:36

We'll be right back

42:45

653 a.m. Here on the East Coast since the

42:47

afternoon in Gaza City. We're taking a look at live Footage

42:51

there of smoke billowing over Gaza

42:54

City as part of presumably Israel's

42:56

response to the violence of

42:58

the weekend and David Ignatius You

43:01

are just back of course from Kiev

43:03

and the situation in Ukraine and that

43:05

in Israel Seem oddly

43:08

linked first of all, of course, there's

43:10

the possible role that Iran is playing

43:12

here in the violence in the Middle East We know that Iran

43:14

has partnered with Russia in their own

43:16

war effort And there's also as Ali

43:18

just sort of hinted at this sort of political

43:22

Juditsu being played by some in

43:24

the Republican Party who are eager

43:27

to draw down US support for Kiev But

43:30

yet are rushing to aid Israel So

43:34

it is a world of trouble. I wasn't

43:37

in in Ukraine. I left Ukraine

43:40

on Saturday Seeing

43:43

that that war hearing

43:45

from Ukrainians the sense of exhaustion

43:49

But but still intense commitment

43:52

as they face a winter that's going to

43:54

be I think even more difficult than last winter

43:57

Trying to think about that about how they have they

44:00

push the Russians back, how they push

44:02

on, they hope toward victory. Their

44:06

dependence on U.S. aid is absolutely 100%,

44:09

as somebody said to me. One

44:12

idea I heard from a Republican

44:15

who knows the House well is maybe

44:17

you can get a package that pulls together

44:19

aid to Israel, aid to Taiwan,

44:22

aid to Ukraine, and

44:25

put it all together in a package for

44:27

Friends of America and try to get something

44:30

through this year. But

44:33

I think for the moment what must please

44:35

the Russians most, Jonathan,

44:38

is that the attention is off the Ukraine war.

44:40

Everybody in the world is going to be focusing on

44:43

Israel and the situation in the Middle East for the next while,

44:46

and the Russians will

44:49

see if there's any lead-up,

44:51

if the Russians seek to play any kind of diplomatic

44:54

role they have, pretty good relations with Israel under

44:58

the table. So that's something

45:00

I'll be watching. David, your

45:02

last point I wanted to pick up on, which is

45:04

whether this causes some distraction or

45:06

turning away from Ukraine. And

45:09

you were just there. Your sense

45:11

of how the leadership in Ukraine sees

45:14

the passage of time. You

45:16

saw the Polish farmers, that

45:19

issue, you've seen what's happened in the House.

45:21

Now there's this. Whether there's a growing

45:23

concern that Putin may have

45:25

a point, unfortunately, that time is not

45:27

their friend and that the rest of the

45:29

world will grow a little bit fatigued with the war

45:32

and start focusing on other things. War

45:35

fatigue is without question a concern

45:38

in Kiev. The

45:40

fatigue of their donor nations, the

45:42

United States and Europe, but the fatigue

45:44

of the Ukrainian people. They've

45:47

taken such a punishing. The

45:49

depletion of their frontline units is

45:52

terrible. That's one reason

45:54

that they're counter-offensive slowed is

45:56

they're just losing so many people in the minefields

45:59

I visited. the hospital that

46:02

makes prosthetic limbs for

46:05

amputees, the number of amputees

46:07

that you see coming off the front lines is just

46:10

heart-rending. So I

46:12

think there's concern, Keith,

46:15

what people say, you know,

46:17

when you press anybody is, we

46:20

are in this for as long as it takes. We are

46:22

so grateful the United States for standing by us.

46:25

Not America's help, we would not stand a chance

46:28

of fighting this Russian

46:30

aggression. So I hope people in the United

46:32

States hear that, hear those voices

46:34

even as we're focusing this week on

46:37

the terrible events in Israel. Yeah, and certainly

46:39

even as the world's attention turns to Israel, Russia

46:42

has not relented a couple of terrible airstrikes

46:44

with dozens of fatalities over

46:47

the weekend in Ukraine. The Washington

46:49

Post's David Ignatius, we're so grateful to

46:52

you for joining us this morning. Thanks, John.

46:54

It was the night of the awful discovery.

46:57

The apartment was dark, the faint

47:00

coppery scent of blood hung

47:02

in the air. Remember telling the voice, don't

47:04

touch anything. We don't know what's

47:06

happened here. I'm Keith Morrison,

47:09

and this is Murder in Apartment 12,

47:12

our new podcast from Dateline. It's

47:14

a story about a local beauty queen

47:16

who has been keeping

47:17

secrets. It's about

47:19

gossip, public opinion, and

47:21

a tortured search for a killer. I

47:24

think they've got the wrong guy.