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is not letting up on this. In fact, not only

0:33

is she willing to shoot her dog and goat, now

0:36

she wants to shoot other dogs

0:38

too. South Dakota Governor

0:40

Kristi Noam is not backing down, defending

0:42

her decision to shoot her own dog.

0:45

Now implying President Joe Biden's dog, Commander, which

0:47

no longer lives in the White House after

0:50

several biting incidents, should be put down. She

0:52

reportedly writes that the first thing she would do

0:54

if she got to the White House is make

0:56

sure Joe Biden's dog was nowhere on the grounds.

0:59

Commander, say hello to cricket. Dear

1:04

Lord, this woman has a taste for dog

1:06

blood. It's like

1:08

she thought all dogs go to heaven was a

1:11

personal challenge. Good

1:14

morning, and welcome to Morning Joe. She can't

1:16

seem to kick it. She tries to blame

1:18

it on us, but she wrote it, Willie.

1:21

It is Tuesday, May 7th. We have a

1:23

lot to get to this morning. We're going

1:25

to go through yesterday's key moments in Donald

1:27

Trump's criminal trial, including

1:29

the judge's warning about potential jail

1:32

time for the former president. Also

1:34

ahead, Georgia's former Lieutenant Governor,

1:37

a lifelong Republican, says it

1:40

will vote for President Biden. We'll read

1:42

from his op-ed calling on other Republicans

1:44

to do the same. And we'll get

1:46

the latest from Capitol Hill on the

1:48

threat to Mike Johnson's speakership. Along

1:51

with Joe, Willie, and me, we have

1:53

calmness and associate editor for The Washington

1:55

Post, David Ignatius. He's out today with

1:58

his new thriller in New York. entitled

2:01

Phantom Orbit and the host

2:03

of Way Too Early, White

2:05

House bureau chief at Politico,

2:07

Jonathan Lemire and his book,

2:09

The Big Lie, Election Chaos,

2:11

Political Opportunism and the

2:13

State of American Politics after 2020 is

2:16

out today in paperback. It's

2:18

book week. Timely. It

2:20

is book week. It's amazing. But we begin this

2:23

morning with the Israel Defense Forces announcing they've

2:25

taken operational control of the Gaza

2:27

side of the Rafa crossing. The

2:30

military released this video overnight of

2:32

troops entering the area and beginning

2:34

a quote precise counter-terrorism

2:37

operation. Israeli

2:39

officials say they seized the crossing

2:42

after receiving intelligence that was being

2:44

used for terrorist purposes. No

2:47

evidence to support that claim was

2:49

provided. The IDF also conducted airstrikes

2:52

that targeted suspected Hamas

2:54

physicians in Rafa. The

2:56

move comes just one day after Israel

2:59

ordered about 100,000 civilians to immediately evacuate

3:04

parts of the southern Gaza city. Officials

3:07

say they will operate with

3:09

extreme force in

3:11

those areas. Willy. And

3:14

shortly after Israel ordered civilians

3:16

to evacuate Rafa, Hamas announced

3:18

it would accept its interpretation

3:20

of a ceasefire proposal. Its

3:22

interpretation is the operative part there. Hours

3:24

later, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu released

3:27

a statement saying the proposal

3:29

Hamas agreed to does not meet

3:31

Israel's demands. NBC News obtained a

3:33

copy of the draft, the first

3:35

phase calls for a 42-day ceasefire

3:37

as well as the release of

3:39

33 hostages in exchange for

3:42

a much larger number of Palestinian prisoners.

3:45

In the second phase, there would be

3:47

the enactment of a quote sustainable calm.

3:50

Two officials familiar with the revised proposal

3:52

tell the New York Times there were

3:54

minor wording changes that were signed off

3:56

by the US and Israel.

4:00

the phrase sustainable calm but sources tell the

4:02

Times, Hamas viewed that term as an end

4:04

to the war which Israel is expected to

4:06

push back on. Of course, negotiations

4:09

are set to resume today in

4:11

Cairo. CIA director Bill Burns is

4:14

expected to take part in those. Joining

4:16

us now live from Jerusalem is NBC

4:18

News chief foreign correspondent Richard

4:20

Engel. Richard, we can talk about the

4:22

ceasefire in a moment that agreement

4:25

and those two dueling interpretations

4:27

of but first Rafa, what's

4:29

happening down in southern Gaza this morning? So

4:35

Israeli troops overnight took over the

4:38

Palestinian side of the Rafa

4:40

border crossing so that gives

4:42

Israel effective control of this

4:44

key entry point into Gaza.

4:46

It also gives them a

4:48

foothold into the city. Israeli

4:51

officials say that this is not the

4:53

start of the widely

4:55

anticipated big Rafa

4:57

offensive, something that President Biden has

5:00

opposed. They say that this is

5:02

a tactical move but it

5:04

is also something that strengthens their

5:06

hand as they go back into

5:09

negotiations. So they are holding part

5:11

of Rafa. They did leaflet the

5:14

area but our crew in Rafa

5:17

started documenting the Israeli

5:19

bombing campaign really just hours after

5:21

the leaflets were dropped so they

5:23

didn't give very much time for

5:25

people to evacuate the area. We

5:27

talked yesterday how they were using

5:29

text messages and leaflets to tell

5:31

people to get out of this

5:33

part of Rafa but within

5:35

hours they were bombing and according

5:37

to medical officials in overnight attacks

5:39

including that incursion into the Palestinian

5:41

side of the Rafa border crossing

5:44

at least 20 people were killed

5:46

including children. Obviously a

5:48

perilous mission and furthering perhaps

5:50

the humanitarian crisis there. Richard

5:52

let's talk about this ceasefire and help

5:54

us understand what we're looking at here

5:56

because you have it one brokered by

5:58

Egypt and Qatar. Hamas says

6:00

yes, we agree to the terms of the

6:03

ceasefire. Israel says wait a minute,

6:05

that's not the ceasefire we agreed to. So what

6:07

are we talking about here? So

6:13

it is quite complex, but I think you

6:15

have to understand this as a negotiating process.

6:18

There was quite a bit of progress

6:20

over the last week or so. Israel,

6:23

backed by the United States, put

6:25

forward a document. It

6:27

was presented to Hamas, it was presented

6:29

to the Egyptians and the Qatari negotiators.

6:32

You remember that Secretary of State

6:34

Blinken praised that offer, saying it

6:37

was very generous. Hamas took it. They

6:39

said they were reading it positively. But

6:42

then the Israeli government, Prime Minister

6:44

Netanyahu, didn't send a negotiator to

6:47

follow up on

6:49

the conversation, didn't send anyone to

6:52

attend the final talks, because from

6:54

Israel's point of view the document

6:56

was done. It was as good

6:58

as it was going to get.

7:00

Even Secretary of State Blinken said

7:02

it was very generous. So why

7:04

go to the meeting? Because

7:06

showing up at a meeting like in

7:08

any negotiation implies that you're going to

7:10

have to negotiate a little bit more.

7:13

Israel didn't go, and Hamas

7:16

and the negotiators working off

7:18

that document that was there

7:20

without the presence of the Israeli delegation

7:22

said, yes, we agree to the terms.

7:24

Here it is. But the terms that

7:27

they presented were not exactly

7:29

the same terms that Israel had

7:31

presented. So now Israel says, fine,

7:34

we will go back. They're sending

7:36

a, quote, working-level delegation to Cairo

7:38

today to see if they can

7:40

find some common ground based on

7:43

this, on these two interpretations of

7:45

the document that was sent. But

7:47

what it does do is it

7:50

puts quite a bit of pressure

7:52

on Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, because

7:54

in this document Hamas openly says,

7:57

we are willing to release all of the

7:59

hostages, all All of the women in phase

8:01

one, three phases, each one forty-two days,

8:03

were willing to release all of the

8:05

rest of the hostages in

8:07

phase two. So the

8:09

Israeli hostage families are hearing that. Opponents

8:12

of Prime Minister Netanyahu are accusing him

8:15

of not taking the hostage release seriously

8:17

are hearing that, and it will be

8:19

very difficult at this stage for the

8:22

Israeli government, Prime Minister Netanyahu in

8:24

particular, to walk away from this

8:26

deal entirely without at least sending

8:28

a negotiating team. And members

8:31

of his right-wing coalition praised him

8:33

for not sending a negotiating team.

8:35

So we're seeing this process play

8:38

out, and Hamas sort of outed

8:40

the Israelis by coming public yesterday

8:43

with its own agreement, saying,

8:46

don't paint us as

8:48

the people who are rejecting everything. We're

8:50

willing to negotiate. We're willing to release

8:52

the hostages. You just need to show

8:55

up and finish this deal. NBC's

8:57

Richard Engel explaining a very complicated situation

8:59

well to us. Richard, live in Jerusalem,

9:02

thanks so much. We appreciate it. So

9:04

Joe and Mika also reporting that Israel

9:06

wanted forty hostages back in this deal.

9:10

Hamas was offering eighteen. They landed on

9:12

thirty-three, but now we're hearing that Hamas said

9:14

that may include the remains of some

9:16

hostages who have died, to which

9:18

Israel said, no, no, no, that's not what

9:20

we're talking about here. So we're still a

9:22

long way from anything that can be considered

9:24

workable at this point. Yeah,

9:27

and David Ignatius, get

9:29

us up to date based on your reporting

9:32

about where we are. Obviously,

9:34

the hostage negotiations go

9:36

on. This

9:38

is a step, obviously a positive

9:40

step, as far as the families

9:43

of the hostages are concerned, the

9:45

promise of ultimately releasing

9:47

all the hostages at the same time. As

9:51

we've said here, the

9:53

prospect of Hamas staying in

9:55

power indefinitely in Gaza just

9:57

the... not

10:00

a possibility for the overwhelming majority

10:02

of Israelis. So where

10:04

did the negotiations go from here? So

10:07

Joe, my sense is that like so many negotiations in

10:09

the Middle East, as this one

10:11

gets closer to achieving its goal of

10:14

a final deal, differences between the sides,

10:19

a recourse to fighting as

10:21

in Israel's attacks on

10:24

parts of Rafah over the last 24

10:26

hours, become part of

10:28

the negotiating. I'm

10:32

struck by the absolute commitment that President

10:34

Biden has shown to getting this deal

10:37

done. He has kept

10:39

working at it, he keeps sending his

10:41

CIA Director Bill Burns back. I

10:43

think from what I hear, Bill Burns

10:46

is really acting as the

10:48

guarantor of this deal, saying to

10:50

all sides, the United States undertakes

10:52

to guarantee the basics, the framework

10:55

that's being negotiated here. The

10:57

most difficult language obviously is

10:59

about how long this period

11:02

of ceasefire lasts. Is

11:05

it a permanent end of the war as Hamas

11:07

wants? Is it a

11:09

lull of some weeks, months, as

11:12

Israel has been willing to concede? The phrase they've

11:14

come up with, sustainable calm,

11:17

is an attempt to satisfy

11:19

both sides. It's classic diplomatic

11:21

language. It

11:23

allows both to claim victory in a sense. Hamas

11:26

can say, we got a permanent

11:28

truce. Israel says, no, no, no, it's

11:30

sustainable calm, that's different. My

11:32

feeling, Joe and Mika, is that the

11:35

one thing that we need to bear in mind is

11:38

that after everything has happened, Israel

11:40

is not gonna settle for a

11:42

Hamas win. Anything

11:44

that really looks like they've

11:46

capitulated to Hamas demands isn't

11:48

gonna fly. They want

11:51

the hostages back, it's a demand

11:53

of the Israeli public that's deep

11:55

that Netanyahu can't ignore. But perhaps

11:58

that phrase is sustainable. will be

12:01

sufficiently vague that Israelis can sell

12:03

it to their public. But

12:05

I don't think anyone should assume

12:07

that Israeli operations to

12:09

destroy what remains of Hamas military

12:12

power are not going to continue

12:14

over the next months, not necessarily

12:16

over the next weeks. But that

12:19

part of the war isn't over, and it

12:21

won't be. I don't think Israel is prepared

12:24

to see Hamas come back as the dominant

12:26

governing force in Gaza. Jonathan

12:29

Lemire, we know President Biden had a call

12:31

with Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday. What do we know

12:33

about what came out of that call? So

12:37

the president, first of all, stressed the need

12:39

to get humanitarian aid back into Gaza and

12:41

was able to push Prime Minister Netanyahu to

12:43

agree to reopen a crossing there that

12:46

allowed that to resume.

12:49

He also said that the

12:51

U.S. maintains its need for the want and

12:53

goal for these hostages to be released and

12:56

to support efforts to do so. He

12:58

also issued yet another warning, another warning

13:01

to Netanyahu against an all-out invasion of

13:03

Rafa. Certainly the president stressed. We

13:05

understand the need to get Hamas leaders. We've been

13:07

behind you on that since October 7th,

13:10

but civilian casualties must be avoided. Israel

13:12

still has not really presented a plan

13:14

to do so. And

13:17

that call happened in the hours before

13:19

this confusion about what ceasefire agreement may

13:21

or may not have agreed to. What

13:24

Hamas has said, they're taking one agreement. Israel says

13:27

that's not good enough. That was

13:29

not part of that call yesterday. But the U.S.

13:31

and Israeli officials have since been in constant

13:33

contact about what's next. And

13:36

now today, with this very fraught backdrop, the president's

13:38

going to be on Capitol Hill for

13:40

Holocaust Remembrance Day for the commemorations of the

13:43

six million Jews who were killed during World

13:45

War II. And he'll be

13:47

speaking about that moment, but also more

13:49

broadly about anti-Semitism. What we saw on

13:51

college campuses in recent weeks is part

13:53

of it when some of those protests, Gaza

13:56

protests, spiraled out of control.

14:00

more broadly just the surge in anti-Semitism

14:02

that we've seen across the country and

14:04

globe in recent years,

14:06

particularly since October 7th. And

14:09

there are certainly domestic political considerations for this president

14:11

as well. But David Ignatius,

14:13

let's talk more about what

14:16

happens next. There's some reporting this morning

14:18

in Axios and other places, some tension

14:20

between Israel and Washington. Israeli

14:23

officials claiming that Washington knew about this

14:25

Hamas deal, but didn't inform Israel and

14:27

Israel was therefore caught off guard. I

14:30

think there is more pressure, to Richard's

14:32

point earlier, on Netanyahu to take some

14:34

sort of deal or at least hold

14:36

off the invasion of Rafah to let

14:38

negotiations continue. What more, if

14:40

anything, can this president do to get

14:42

Netanyahu to listen? So

14:45

Jonathan, I think the hardest part

14:47

of this is that there are sharp divisions

14:49

within Israel now. There's growing

14:52

dissent on happiness from some of

14:55

the senior people in the Israeli

14:57

Defense Forces who've been uncomfortable with

14:59

Netanyahu really for months. But that's,

15:02

I'm told, come to a

15:04

head in the last week. What

15:06

they want, what they're demanding is

15:08

a clearer plan for how Israel

15:10

gets from here to

15:12

a stable Gaza. And

15:14

they are not seeing that yet from

15:17

the Netanyahu government. The

15:20

IDF wants, as it pulls its troops

15:22

back to be confident, it's not going to have

15:24

to send them in all over again and have

15:26

a repeat of this. So for

15:28

now, I think that's a key element.

15:32

I do think President Biden's

15:34

personal guarantees through Director Burns

15:36

shuttling back and forth between

15:39

Doha and Cairo have been a key element

15:41

in this. When an American

15:44

president sends his personal emissary and

15:46

says, we guarantee that this outcome

15:48

will be as we describe it,

15:50

that's the most a president can do

15:52

it. He puts US credibility on the

15:55

line. I think that's been important in

15:57

speaking to the Israelis. I think it's

15:59

Biden's call with Netanyahu yesterday. today was

16:01

a crucial one. He was putting it

16:03

on the line. The United States needs

16:05

this end of fighting. We need the

16:07

ceasefire agreement to work. You have to

16:10

help us get it. Some more things

16:12

have been said, obviously, to the Hamas

16:14

side through Qatar and Egypt. So I

16:16

think we're in this tense final phase

16:18

of a negotiation. It's

16:21

one in which the president's

16:23

credibility, his interests as

16:25

president and the future of this region

16:27

are totally engaged. We'll see what he

16:29

says publicly because that

16:31

will be a moment where she speaks to the country, not

16:35

in private to his negotiators. All

16:39

right. The Washington Post, David Ignatius, thank

16:41

you very, very much. And still ahead

16:43

in just one minute, Donald Trump's criminal

16:46

trial, we'll pick up again just a

16:48

short time from now back in New

16:50

York City. We're going to go over

16:52

what we learned yesterday as prosecutors

16:54

focused on the Trump

16:56

Organization paper trail and

16:59

the judge holds the former president in

17:02

contempt again. You're

17:04

watching Morning Joe. We're back in 60 seconds. The

17:10

UN Refugee Agency or UNHCR responds

17:13

to emergencies and provides long term

17:15

solutions for refugees. They provide aid

17:17

in over 130 countries,

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including Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan and Sudan,

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where people are forced to flee

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from war and persecution at their

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greatest moment of need. UNHCR helps

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and protects refugees by providing food,

17:32

shelter, medical care and other life

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saving essentials. The agency jumpstarts relief

17:36

in three key ways. They transport

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core relief items stored in even

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the most remote areas of the

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world. They deploy expert emergency staff

17:45

trained to help in crisis situations

17:47

and they transfer funds directly to

17:49

support the emergency. Because of generous

17:51

supporters and donors, UNHCR can scale

17:53

up its response within 72 hours

17:56

of a large scale emergency. Your

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support helps provide. life-saving aid

18:01

for refugees whenever and

18:03

wherever emergencies occur. Donate

18:06

to USA for UNHCR

18:08

by visiting unrefugees.org/donation. Beautiful

18:17

look at lower Manhattan at 17 past the hour.

18:21

It is day 13 of Donald Trump's

18:23

criminal trial which resumes later this morning,

18:25

a day after the

18:28

judge issued his sharpest warning yet

18:30

of potential jail time for the

18:32

former president for continuing to violate

18:34

his gag order. At

18:36

the start of court yesterday, Judge Juan

18:39

Marchelin found Trump in contempt for

18:41

a tenth time finding him an

18:43

additional $1,000. But

18:45

in his ruling, the judge stated, quote,

18:47

it appears that the $1,000 fines are

18:49

not serving as

18:53

a deterrent. Judge Marchelin

18:55

also acknowledged the magnitude of potentially jailing

18:57

Trump and how disruptive to the proceedings

18:59

it would be stating, quote, the last

19:01

thing I want to do is put

19:04

you in jail. You are

19:06

the former president of the United States

19:08

and possibly the next president as well.

19:11

There are many reasons why incarceration

19:14

is truly a last resort for

19:16

me. But at the end of the

19:18

day, I have a job to do. So as

19:20

much as I do not want to propose a

19:22

jail sanction, I will, if

19:25

necessary. Willie. And

19:27

when the trial resumed, prosecutors delved into the

19:30

documents that are at the heart of this

19:32

case. That came in

19:34

testimony from former Trump organization controller

19:36

Jeffrey McConnie and current employee Deborah

19:38

Perisoff, an accounts payable supervisor and

19:41

a 24 year veteran

19:43

of the company. They both explained

19:45

the mechanics of reimbursing former Trump

19:47

attorney and fixer Michael Cohen for the

19:50

$130,000 paid

19:52

to adult film actress Stormy Daniels

19:54

to keep her quiet about an

19:56

alleged affair with Donald Trump. Trump

19:58

has denied any sexual incantation. with

20:00

Daniels. They also described how

20:02

several of the large sums that went

20:05

to Cohen for the alleged purposes of

20:07

hush money payments came directly from Donald

20:09

Trump's bank account. And for

20:11

the first time during the trial, a

20:14

check from the alleged scheme was

20:16

shown in court. Let's bring in

20:18

former litigator, MSNBC legal correspondent, Lisa

20:20

Rubin. Lisa, good morning. You had

20:22

a front row seat yesterday inside

20:24

the courtroom. So perhaps

20:26

not as splashy as

20:28

David Pecker when you hear about someone from accounts

20:30

payable, but really important to

20:32

this case. Totally important. And

20:35

as understated, what you just said

20:37

was maybe as one Rashawn telling

20:39

Donald Trump that it appears that

20:42

the $1,000 fines are not working

20:44

as a deterrent. Yesterday was an

20:46

incredibly important day in court and

20:49

not at all a sensational one

20:51

because document by document, Makhani and

20:53

Terrasoff went through the

20:55

34 business records that are alleged here

20:58

to have been falsified. And

21:00

the prosecutors made them read from those

21:02

documents so that the jury can understand

21:04

what specifically about each and every one

21:06

of these documents is allegedly false. So

21:09

for example, Michael Cohen's 12 invoices

21:12

all say pursuant to our

21:14

retainer agreement, here

21:17

is my bill for services rendered.

21:19

What's false about that? There was

21:21

no retainer agreement. There were no

21:23

services rendered. And similarly, they

21:25

had to go through the checks and the checks,

21:27

the checks, the checks each one of which says

21:29

that it's pursuant to a retainer. And

21:32

then they had to go through the

21:34

general business ledger entries that similarly say

21:36

that this is pursuant to a retainer

21:38

and for legal services. That is not

21:41

at all exciting for the jury. And

21:43

you could see that there were times

21:45

that their attention winged, but it is

21:47

the heart and the crux of the

21:50

charged crime here. And perhaps the most

21:52

important day legally in this trial, if

21:54

not at least the most exciting one.

21:56

And the fact that we learned they came directly

21:58

from Donald Trump's personal bank accounts and

22:00

not from the Trump organization's bank account.

22:03

And also when Tarasoff was asked, did

22:06

this go through the legal department at

22:08

the Trump organization because we're, say,

22:10

claimed talking about legal retainers, she said no.

22:13

And she admitted that that was unusual.

22:16

So how damning was the testimony to

22:18

Donald Trump yesterday? I think the testimony

22:20

was damning to Donald Trump in a number

22:22

of ways and not even ways that I

22:24

think the jury fully appreciates yet, but hopefully

22:27

on closing argument will. One of the things that

22:29

Jeff McConnie said, for example, that I thought was

22:31

hugely damaging was he talked about an episode early

22:33

on in his employment where Trump called him in

22:36

because he was delivering something to Donald Trump in

22:38

terms of his cash balances from a week to

22:40

week basis. That was one of McConnie's responsibilities. And

22:42

Trump is on the phone. He said, hold on,

22:44

hold on, Jeff, you're fired. And he's

22:47

waiting for McConnie. And when he gets off the phone and

22:49

goes, no, you're not fired. But my

22:51

cash balance went down. Why was that? McConnie explains.

22:54

Well, I had bills to pay. And

22:56

Trump instructs him basically from this point

22:58

forward, you don't just pay the bills

23:00

as they're tender to you. You negotiate.

23:03

And McConnie said that was a teaching

23:05

moment for him. Remember, if a person

23:07

is telling you as a person responsible

23:09

for paying out all of his bills,

23:11

negotiate everything, it's kind of at odds

23:14

with that to then have these invoices

23:16

come in for thirty five thousand dollars

23:18

every month without any explanation. Two lines

23:20

saying pursuant to our retainer agreement, here's

23:22

my bill for services and expect to

23:25

be paid thirty five thousand dollars with

23:27

no questions asked. That's not

23:29

who Donald Trump was. And the prosecutors want the

23:31

jury to understand. And these are not disgruntled

23:33

employees. In fact, Terrasoff is still an employee

23:35

of the Trump organization, but they're telling the

23:37

truth. Understand yesterday. So let's

23:39

talk about Judge Mershon, his warning again

23:41

yesterday saying to Donald Trump in that

23:43

order, I don't want to put you

23:46

in jail. But if

23:48

you keep violating the gag order, clearly a

23:50

thousand dollars for violation is not making a

23:52

dent here. I'm going to have to do

23:54

it. Do you think we're going to reach that

23:56

point? I'm hopeful that we won't reach

23:58

that point. One, Rashawn, I

24:01

compared him on another show a couple

24:03

weeks ago to the disappointed parental

24:05

or grandfatherly figure that we all have

24:07

that gets quieter, the angrier he gets.

24:10

His tone yesterday was definitely one

24:12

more of sorrow than of anger.

24:14

He was very understated. Hopefully

24:16

he is impressing upon the former president. This

24:18

is, as you said, this is the last

24:20

thing I want to do. And yet if

24:23

I have no choice, I will do

24:25

it because the statute provides him only with

24:27

two options, either $1,000 per violation or incarceration

24:29

up to 30 days. And

24:33

he said, point blank, this isn't really making a

24:35

dent to charge you $1,000 per. The

24:38

one bright side for Donald Trump, if you

24:40

can call it that, is the district attorney

24:42

had alleged four violations. Only

24:44

one of them, one Rashawn found yesterday,

24:47

was violative of the gag order. Two

24:49

of the alleged violations are about Michael

24:51

Cohen. The Trump team made some inroads

24:53

with Rashawn by showing him that Trump's

24:55

statements about Cohen were close in time,

24:58

if not on the same day, to

25:00

statements Cohen made about Trump on

25:02

acts that were highly inflammatory. And they

25:05

said Trump was just defending himself against

25:07

a politicized attack. Rashawn

25:09

didn't agree with them per se, but he

25:11

said it was close enough that he couldn't

25:13

find beyond reasonable doubt that Trump should be

25:15

held in criminal contempt. So look

25:17

for Trump to try and test those lines

25:19

a little bit more, particularly if Michael Cohen

25:21

or Stormy Daniels continues to talk. On the

25:24

other hand, if he goes after jurors again

25:26

or he makes a statement about a different

25:28

witness, do I think one Rashawn is a

25:30

man of his word? I do, William, we'll see.

25:32

So Jonathan Lemire, there's been this debate about

25:34

whether Donald Trump actually wants to be put

25:36

in jail, maybe for a day or for

25:38

one night, just to have the story to

25:40

say, see that they locked me up on

25:42

your retribution, everything else. We heard some commentators

25:44

and other networks saying, oh, please put him

25:46

in jail or win him the election. On

25:49

the other hand, Donald Trump doesn't really want to go

25:51

sit in a jail cell for a night. So the

25:54

thousand dollars per violation isn't quite working.

25:56

There's a sense maybe Donald Trump's calling

25:58

the bluff of judges. We'll see where

26:01

this goes. We

26:03

will see where it goes, but I can tell

26:05

you, Willie, speaking to a lot of people close

26:07

to former president, he does not want to spend

26:09

a night in jail. That was the case. He

26:12

talked about it last summer when he

26:15

was indicted in Georgia and had to

26:17

go for that mugshot that he was

26:19

rattled by. Some of that he has

26:21

been quizzing people at his Mar-a-Lago resorts

26:23

and other places about prison. Some

26:26

of whom he knows have spent time there. He

26:28

has made it very clear that he does not want

26:30

to happen. This is something his whole life. He's

26:33

been very fearful of this possibility. So

26:35

he's trying to put up a brave

26:37

face. He's trying to rally

26:39

his supporters. He's trying to say, I'll be

26:41

a martyr by going to jail

26:43

for a night or two because there will be

26:45

more evidence of this deep state conspiracy against me.

26:47

But let's be clear, he doesn't want to go

26:49

in jail. There's been no evidence that

26:52

this trial is bringing more voters to his

26:54

side either. We haven't really seen it hurt

26:56

his standings, at least to this point. The

26:58

trial, the polls largely stay unchanged. Trump has

27:00

slipped a little bit. Biden gains, but it's

27:02

hard to assign credit to the trial

27:04

for that. A verdict, however, may

27:07

change things. But Lisa, just walk us

27:09

through the mechanics, if you will. Let's

27:11

say it happens. And Judge Burchard finally says,

27:13

enough is enough, whether that's this week or

27:15

next week, whatever it might be, and says,

27:18

Trump, you violated the order again. We've got

27:21

to put you in jail for a night or

27:23

two. It would be such a logistical nightmare with

27:25

Secret Service agents and such uncharted territory, to be

27:27

sure. But give us your best guess. What

27:29

would this look like? So I'll

27:31

give you my best guess and also

27:33

based on conversations that reporters are having

27:35

amongst themselves in the courthouse. There

27:38

is a general consensus that if

27:40

Juan Marcheon were to find that

27:42

Donald Trump has to spend time

27:44

in jail, it wouldn't be in

27:46

the notorious Rikers Island complex. It

27:48

would likely be in some sort

27:50

of holding facility adjacent to the

27:52

courthouse where Secret Service can be

27:54

nearby. It's also my understanding that

27:56

there have been some preliminary conversations

27:58

between Secret Service, court court. directions

28:00

officers and the court itself about what

28:02

that might look like because it's not

28:04

at all clear that Secret Service is

28:06

prepared to or would leave Donald Trump's

28:08

side. So accommodations will have to be

28:10

made for that if and when this

28:12

time comes. But for anybody who's hoping

28:14

to see Donald Trump in some form

28:16

of orange jumpsuit shipped off to Rikers

28:18

Island for criminal contempt for violating the

28:20

gag order, I can assure them now

28:22

that that's probably not how this will

28:24

go down at all. And John, I

28:26

just want to say I fully agree

28:28

with you that Donald Trump does not

28:30

want to spend even 24 minutes in

28:33

jail, let alone 24 hours. And

28:35

that's evident by how hard Todd Blanche

28:38

has tap danced to assure Juan Rochon

28:40

that Trump did not knowingly or intentionally

28:42

violate the gag order. You just simply

28:44

would not fight this hard if your

28:47

client wanted to make a martyr out

28:49

of himself the way that Trump is

28:51

trying to portray to his supporters. Lisa,

28:55

just from what we saw happen yesterday,

28:57

putting all of that aside, did anything

28:59

happen yesterday that would interrupt

29:03

the notion that this is moving at a very,

29:05

very fast pace? No, the opposite,

29:07

Mika. I would say at the end

29:09

of the day, Judge Marchelin, we finished

29:11

11 witnesses so far. Judge Marchelin wanted

29:13

a read from the prosecution about how

29:15

things are moving overall. And Josh Steinglass,

29:17

who is sort of the lead prosecutor,

29:19

said, well, and there was a big

29:21

laughter in the courtroom. And the shot

29:23

said, could you elaborate on that? And

29:26

that's when Josh Steinglass said for the

29:28

record that he thought that he could

29:30

be finished or rather the prosecution could

29:32

be finished with their case in chief

29:34

two weeks from today. That's

29:36

eight remaining trial days. And that

29:38

would include, presumably, the testimony of

29:40

Michael Cohen and perhaps Stormy Daniels

29:42

as well, each of which are

29:44

expected to last for multiple days.

29:47

So I think this is moving

29:49

at a rapid clip and even

29:51

faster maybe than the district attorney's

29:53

office had even anticipated. MSNBC

29:56

legal correspondent Lisa Rubin, thank you

29:58

very, very much. you again

30:00

soon and coming up former Press

30:02

Secretary Jen Psaki is out

30:04

with a new inside account from her

30:07

time serving in the White House. She

30:10

joins us with that ahead on Morning Joe.

30:12

We'll be right back. Each

30:28

year, the International Rescue Committee's Emergency

30:31

Watchlist report instances the 20 countries

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at greatest risk of new or

30:35

worsening humanitarian emergencies. These countries are

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home to only 10.6% of

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The civil war in Sudan has

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of humanitarian aid while armed conflicts

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and natural disasters have displaced 1.26

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million people in the Democratic

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Gaza has become the deadliest place

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for civilians in the world. Donations

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help the IRC provide families affected

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31:30

On Saturday, he hosted an event at

31:32

Mar-a-Lago for wealthy donors. It was a

31:35

luncheon that included around a dozen potential

31:37

running mates, all of whom are auditioning

31:39

to be his number two on the

31:41

exciting new reality competition show, So You

31:44

Think You Can Pence. Only

31:47

Donald Trump could

31:50

end up with a running mate and a cellmate in

31:52

the same month. But among the above

31:54

all polls are Marco Rubio, Elise Stefanik, J.D.

31:57

Vance and South Dakota Governor Christine gnome who

31:59

I really love that she thinks she still

32:01

has a shot. I mean, she had a

32:04

shot, she used it on her dog. Oh

32:08

my God. The executive editor

32:10

of the New York times is

32:12

pushing back against criticism that

32:15

the newspaper is received for its coverage of

32:17

the 2024 election. In

32:20

an interview with Semaphore, Joseph Kahn

32:22

responded to attacks from some on

32:25

the left who say the times

32:27

reporting is too critical of president

32:30

Joe Biden and could enable Donald

32:33

Trump to win back the white house. There

32:36

are, there's so many things wrong with

32:38

that right there. There are people out

32:40

there in the world quote, who may

32:42

decide based on their democratic rights to

32:44

elect Donald Trump. As president Kahn says,

32:46

it's not the job of the news

32:48

media to prevent that from happening. It's

32:50

the job of Joe Biden and

32:52

the people around Biden to prevent that

32:55

from happening, to say that the threats

32:57

of democracy are so great that the

32:59

media is going to

33:01

abandon its central role as a

33:03

source of impartial information to help people

33:08

vote. That's essentially saying the news

33:10

media should become a propaganda arm

33:13

for a single candidate because we

33:15

prefer that candidate's agenda. Oh,

33:18

this is so interesting. Joining us now

33:20

editor in chief of Semaphore, Ben Smith.

33:22

He conducted that interview with Joseph Kahn.

33:24

He's also the author of the

33:27

2023 book out today in paperback entitled traffic,

33:30

genius rivalry and delusion in

33:32

the billion dollar race to

33:35

go viral. You know, Ben,

33:37

you can go online for five

33:39

seconds and find examples of the

33:41

times being hammered for being too

33:44

anti Biden, too anti Trump,

33:46

too anti Israel, too

33:48

anti Palestinian. It's

33:51

just, it goes with it. Even

33:53

though it's seen as a center left newspaper.

33:56

The goal is to play it straight down

33:58

the middle. Talk about the frustration. that the

34:00

executive better is feeling right now. Yeah,

34:03

I mean, I think it's a moment when

34:05

Democrats really want the media in their corner.

34:07

And what a lot of people see is

34:10

this basically battle over democracy. But what's happening

34:12

inside the New York Times is a

34:14

sense that during particularly the summer of 2020, they

34:18

align themselves too much with particularly a

34:20

kind of progressive wing of the Democratic

34:22

Party, on account of

34:24

their staff, on account of the sort of cultural forces.

34:27

And I think Khan sees his job

34:29

as pulling the institution back from what he

34:31

called excesses in that moment, kind

34:34

of inconvenient time, perhaps, for Joe Biden for

34:36

the Times to be kind of symbolically focused

34:38

on dragging itself back from that brink. Yeah,

34:42

what did Marty Barron say at the

34:44

Washington Post? We're going to work, not

34:46

war, it seems to me. That

34:49

even if readers look at

34:51

these newspapers and sense

34:53

that seems like they're

34:55

going to war

34:57

against some of the more extreme

34:59

elements of Donald Trump's platform against

35:01

his future plans, again, the

35:04

editor, people in the newsroom, their jobs

35:07

not to pick sides, their jobs to

35:09

report the facts. And of course, in

35:12

my opinion, because we don't have

35:14

to play it down the middle, the facts

35:16

are heinous enough to speak for themselves.

35:22

Yeah, and I think there's a question of what exactly

35:24

does it mean to play it down the middle? Is

35:27

the job of the media to fight for

35:29

democracy or in democracy? Do we have this

35:31

very constrained, specific role lane, and we're supposed

35:33

to stay in this? And I think, in

35:35

some sense, what the Times is deciding is

35:37

the second option there. So

35:40

Ben, let's talk about traffic. A book

35:42

was out last year, and you've updated

35:44

it in paperback. It kind of takes

35:46

us back to the beginning, which to me doesn't

35:48

feel that long ago, but I guess it is

35:51

now, when you were a young buck coming up

35:53

and there was all this disruption in media and

35:55

it wasn't just about legacy anymore, and it was

35:57

going to be Gawker and Huffington Post and Buzzfeed.

36:00

which you obviously did so much work with

36:02

and helped to build. How

36:06

different has it ended up, which is one of the

36:08

points of your book, than you all

36:10

viewed it when you began? In other words, it

36:12

was kind of a progressive group of young almost

36:14

New York-based journalists and this chase

36:17

of traffic and clicks led

36:19

us to a different place. Yeah, I wrote

36:21

the book in 2020, sort of looking back

36:23

at the year that began with blogs. That

36:25

sounds embarrassing to say that I was a

36:27

blogger at the time, but it

36:30

was both presumptively of the left and kind

36:32

of left-leaning. And also there's just a sense

36:34

that this was the future, this sort of

36:36

progressive new media. I think you

36:39

look back now and that was wrong in two

36:41

ways. One is that the people who were best

36:43

able to use these populist tools of digital

36:46

media, social media, turned out to be the right,

36:48

turned out to be Steve Ben and Donald Trump.

36:50

I mean, the other big surprise for me in

36:52

writing the book was the realization that I had

36:54

to write a chapter about the New York Times,

36:56

which did emerge in some ways as the winner

36:58

of that period. John?

37:03

Well, we didn't hear you there, Willie, but yeah, Ben,

37:05

let's talk a little more about this sort of landscape

37:08

in terms of the media now. Where do

37:10

you see it going? Because it seems like

37:13

nearly every day there is reports of layoffs,

37:15

there's a report of consolidation, and there are

37:17

very few outlets that seemingly have the resource,

37:19

the ability to do their job the way

37:22

they see fit to do what the

37:24

readers and viewers demand. Give

37:27

us this, which forecast for us,

37:29

if you will, the future of

37:31

all this, when the

37:33

news has never been more important, world events never

37:35

moving more faster, but we seem to be struggling

37:38

to keep up. Yeah, the

37:40

big story in media right now

37:42

is fragmentation, and it's a hard,

37:44

confusing story to cover. You know,

37:46

everything is getting smaller, TV is

37:48

getting smaller, traditional news outlets are getting

37:50

smaller, and tons of small and medium-sized podcasts

37:53

and newsletters and things are springing up around

37:55

them, but it's a moving target, there's no

37:57

center, the data point that I'm kind of

38:00

obsessed with is the biggest pod, you know, a lot

38:02

of podcasts out there, the most popular one is Joe

38:04

Rogan. You know, big audience, but he's only got 5%

38:07

of that podcast market. I mean, if you guys only have

38:10

5% of the morning news market, that would be a big

38:12

problem. And so it's

38:14

a market, you know, it's essentially a landscape in which

38:16

there's no huge player. There's tons and

38:18

tons of media insights players. And if you're on the

38:20

New York subway, you have no idea

38:22

what other people are listening to in their

38:24

air pods. Basically, people are retreating from these

38:26

big open social media spaces into much smaller

38:28

spaces. And they're looking for better and for worse.

38:32

Yeah. So, so Ben, guys, I mean, since

38:34

you wrote this

38:37

book, it

38:39

has Jonathan was saying the situation has

38:42

gotten tougher and tougher, more

38:44

fragmentation, but also more failure. You look

38:46

what happened over the past year, from

38:48

the LA times to the messenger to

38:50

you name it, it

38:53

seems one, one

38:55

business, whether it's traditional, traditional

38:58

newspaper or whether it's website

39:01

based, one after another's

39:03

fallen. Why a couple of questions?

39:06

One, why is it that the New York Times seems

39:10

to only be getting stronger? And two,

39:13

what is the lesson from all these failures

39:15

for the startups of

39:17

the next few years? You

39:19

know, in some sense, the big story is the

39:22

decline of local, the New York Times is getting

39:24

stronger in a sense because it's because why would

39:26

you read the Los Angeles Times, the Cleveland Plain

39:28

Deal? You can just as easily get the New

39:30

York Times. And in the same way with

39:32

something like search engines or, you know, the rich get

39:34

richer, the best platform gets more data and more money

39:36

and gets better. In some sense, the Times

39:38

is the winner of this kind of

39:40

nationalization of news and local press everywhere

39:42

as the loser. The way in which

39:44

the industry is shrinking, the real

39:47

thing that is hitting the news industry, you know,

39:49

isn't tech journalism or media journalism or business journalism,

39:51

it's local news. And that

39:54

is just continuing to get decimated

39:56

and eroding this very baseline foundation

39:58

of news gathering. In America arm and

40:01

I think you know this was her trying

40:03

to build new things what like us them for

40:05

the very careful very focused a me that the

40:07

in a way there's not totally on my

40:09

television actually on the voices of individual journalists to

40:11

can connect to people who are maybe a

40:13

little skeptical of institutions but I do think that

40:16

none of us are chasing the kind of

40:18

scale that we were for instance about says. Oh

40:22

right, center for spend Smith. Thank

40:24

you so much as Focus entitled

40:26

Traffic Genius rivalry and to Lose

40:28

and then the billion dollar race

40:30

to go viral. It's out in

40:33

paperback today thanks Ban and still

40:35

I had on Morning Joe. Did.

40:38

You believe that you were targeted deliberately.

40:40

That people knew who you were, knew

40:42

that she when landing on that flight

40:44

and deliberately targeted you. I believe so.

40:46

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that. That

40:50

was W N B A star.

40:52

Brittney Griner speaking with Msnbc, Joy

40:54

Reid and Act Cable exclusive about

40:56

her arrest which led to her

40:58

Russian confinement and had one hear

41:01

more from Griner detailing the mind

41:03

games she says the Russians played

41:05

on her behind bars and whether

41:07

or not she thought she would

41:09

ever make it home. Also

41:12

ahead will dig into Georgia Republican

41:14

Jeff Duncan blistering new of that

41:16

where he'd the last spells and

41:19

his own party who fall in

41:21

line with Donald Trump and what

41:23

he is revealing about who he

41:25

won't vote for this election cycle

41:28

and why Morning Joe will be

41:30

right back. Down

41:44

say v Vincenzo breaking a tie with

41:47

forty seconds left with a New York

41:49

weeks ahead for good in another thriller

41:51

as a garden last night. Point guard

41:53

Jaylen Brown some the all star nazis

41:55

was since second a playoff game with

41:58

stories and more point zero. Three

42:00

last night, including twenty one in the

42:02

fourth quarters, leave the next or one

42:05

twenty one one Seventeen victory over the

42:07

Indiana Pacers in the opener of their

42:09

second round series game to somehow night

42:11

at Madison Square Garden. Jonathan the mere

42:14

back page of the post this morning.

42:17

Where my don't have a thrill? A Nova

42:19

The or three Villanova players the Nova next

42:21

as they become known combining for ninety two

42:23

points when you put Josh Heart in there

42:26

as well. They were trailing most of that

42:28

game as little dicey but man the Garden

42:30

came alive. They're at the end scan. that's

42:32

why I think the Pacers are really gonna

42:34

regret letting slip away. may lead most of

42:36

the way You have a chance. Steel game

42:39

while on the road put the pressure squarely

42:41

on New York. Seize control the serious and

42:43

they just couldn't close out in jail and

42:45

Bronson credit to him and his. Villanova.

42:48

Teammates he's been so good. I've been in

42:50

these playoffs or in some I will. you

42:52

weigh in on this. Ah, some Knicks fans.

42:54

Are you suggesting his side? Nick of all

42:56

time? That seems a little premature. Franchise that

42:58

does not have to make championships but does

43:01

out Patrick Ewing him in and Bernard can

43:03

walk hard for her. to the name a

43:05

few on, but there's no overstating what he's

43:07

done these classes. Ah, they're showing a team.

43:09

He's carrying them on Sunday when when he's

43:11

high on the list with see how deep

43:14

big all the I mean my gosh, if

43:16

he brings in the. Title the first,

43:18

and Nineteen seventy three he climbs. For

43:20

men, they're talking about names like Michael

43:22

Jordan, Jerry West in terms of consecutive

43:24

forty point games in the playoffs. Last

43:27

thing is doing it and doing so

43:29

consistently. Twenty one in the fourth course

43:31

put them on his back. the game

43:33

to tomorrow night's And John how about

43:36

the story developing out West defending champion

43:38

Nuggets on the ropes when they hear

43:40

the Timber Wolves dominating Denver on their

43:42

home for it again last night? Anthony

43:45

Edwards, Karl Anthony Towns of Minnesota He.

43:47

Scored twenty seven point Fuels improve six

43:49

the know when the playoffs for the

43:51

one on six a baby boom oh

43:54

wow of the Nuggets. In game two

43:56

of their second round series, Minnesota can

43:58

sweep Denver with wins. Friday night and

44:00

Sunday night back on their homes course

44:02

so you know you never want to

44:04

count out the Nuggets. Jonathan the losing

44:06

to on your home floor get you

44:09

pretty close. Yeah I suspect the Nuggets

44:11

won't get swept their the defending champs

44:13

are still the best certainly in the

44:15

call your kids for this is stunning

44:17

also for Salt Minnesota did this last

44:19

night without really go bare miss the

44:21

game or because the birth of his

44:23

child's yet suffocating decent holding Denver to

44:25

just eighty points at and and the

44:27

read off is about to be the

44:29

face of the. And be a disguise

44:31

only twenty two years old, he's an

44:33

extraordinary young talents. They're just started to

44:35

be Denver like that at home arm

44:37

and a wolf placed. yeah we're that

44:39

series of course gets the winner of

44:41

the Oklahoma City Dallas Series which kicks

44:43

off tonight as us the Celtics metabolism

44:46

right him one up in Boston tonight.

44:48

Christian Forcing is still out on clear

44:50

when he's coming back. Celtic still favorite

44:52

of that series. It's ah but it

44:54

should be a good couple days a

44:56

basketball here. Are you sitting right now

44:58

of the next. I. Feel Good. I

45:00

mean that one that was. I

45:02

wasn't feeling great for about three and a

45:05

half quarters last night and and they turned

45:07

it on in their says, there's nowhere else

45:09

like it when the garden gets to play

45:11

off game like then the Rangers will have

45:13

when they're tonight's places. Absolutely rock and so

45:15

I the only relieves. Let's put it that

45:17

way, I created one when yeah, this is

45:19

obscene, deeply premature, but it was pointed out

45:21

to be yes or is hadn't occurred to

45:23

me. It's more potentially on track for a

45:25

Boston vs. New York conference finals in both

45:27

the N B, A and Nhl. The Bruins,

45:29

arrangers, Nixon Celtics all very much alive right

45:32

now that. Would it be something inside the test? As

45:34

such, it. Is just a did cross

45:36

my mind but I dare not. Deceived.

45:41

Ocean City, Maryland and discover a

45:44

place to just years later. Everyday

45:47

feels like Saturday and french fries

45:49

or food group were flip flops

45:51

are always in fashion and seafood

45:53

is always the season. Where the

45:55

boardwalk is puzzling and the beach

45:57

is right else would you do.

46:00

Where you can rise with the tide and

46:03

feel like a kid again. Ocean

46:05

City, Maryland. Somewhere to smile about.

46:07

Book your trip at oceocean.com