0:00

I built a phenomenal company.

0:02

And if we could run our country the

0:05

way I've run my company, we would

0:07

have a country that you would be so proud

0:09

of.

0:11

OK, I just need to correct that one. Let's

0:13

say it. If we could run our country

0:15

the way he ran his companies,

0:18

we'd all be in jail. OK, Donald Trump,

0:20

with that statement back during

0:22

the 2016 election. If

0:25

that is the case, then a fraud ruling yesterday

0:27

from a judge in New York about how he ran

0:29

his company says a lot

0:32

about his presidency. We'll get into that decision,

0:35

a big one in just

0:36

a moment. Well, I got to say before before

0:38

we move on, this judge who

0:41

are going to read from the roof, this judge

0:43

came with like no need for a trial.

0:46

Frazier's left hook, man. He

0:48

he connected feet off the ground,

0:51

flying through the air. The left hook

0:53

boom really hit him hard

0:56

before we even got to a trial. Said we

0:58

know fraud when we see it. We've looked at all

1:00

the evidence. This is fraud. And there'll be a version

1:02

of the trial maybe starting next week. We'll get more details

1:04

on that in a minute. But the judge could

1:07

not have been more clear in his ruling

1:09

yesterday that what Donald Trump and the organization

1:11

perpetrated over many, many years in his

1:14

eyes is fraud.

1:15

Yeah, part of the case brought by

1:18

New York Attorney General Letitia James.

1:21

So we'll get to that in just a moment. That's our

1:23

top story this morning. Also ahead, the

1:25

history making stop on the picket line

1:27

for President Biden. We'll show you

1:29

what he had to say to striking auto workers

1:32

who are demanding a significant

1:35

pay raise. Plus, Senator

1:37

Bob Menendez is refusing

1:40

to resign, despite calls from two

1:42

dozen colleagues to do so following

1:44

his indictment on bribery

1:45

charges. You wouldn't believe the Republicans

1:48

who are now defending him. Actually, it seems

1:51

like in some ways, both sides might

1:53

be making this about Trump. But

1:56

yeah, really interesting. Meanwhile, House

1:58

Republicans are making some.

1:59

progress on a package of spending bills,

2:02

but Congress is still on a path to

2:05

a government shutdown. And we'll

2:07

have a preview of tonight's Republican presidential

2:09

debate taking place at the Reagan library.

2:12

The second showdown for the candidates

2:14

will not feature the

2:17

front runner in the polls. Donald Trump simply

2:19

will not show up at the debate.

2:21

Apparently as a grudge toward

2:24

the Ronald Reagan presidential library

2:26

as well. Oh my God. Yes,

2:28

a grudge. Grudge against

2:31

like just about every Republican

2:33

institution, every governmental

2:36

institution, every military

2:38

institution. A lot of grudge

2:40

is going around for a guy who actually wants to run

2:42

a country he seems to hate. Yeah,

2:45

I mean the Reagan presidential library out

2:47

in California is a sacred ground for Republicans

2:50

as you know, and they host debates every cycle.

2:52

And Donald Trump has been in a fight with them, the details

2:55

of which are too boring to explain here. But he

2:57

views himself as always as having been wronged

2:59

in some way by the Reagan family,

3:02

the Reagan presidential library. He's a victim,

3:04

so he's not going to show up. Now,

3:06

there's also a political strategy to that. He may not

3:08

need to show up. He didn't show up at the last one until

3:11

about 35, 40 points up on his closest

3:14

challenger. And by the way, we're going

3:16

to talk about all of that and we're going to start in just

3:18

one minute. I do want to briefly say off the top of

3:20

the show, Willie, we saw the

3:22

passing yesterday of one

3:24

of the greatest baseball players of all time,

3:27

certainly the greatest third baseman of all time,

3:29

a guy that when I was a little kid,

3:32

I got to get to get the chance to

3:34

like lean over meat

3:36

and get an autograph from

3:38

the stands. Brooks Robinson, just

3:41

an absolute superstar at

3:45

at the Baltimore with Baltimore Orioles and

3:47

Tom Boswell wrote for the Washington

3:49

Post in 1983 when

3:52

he was admitted in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

3:55

Yeah, he was one of the greatest ball players ever,

3:58

even better. as a man. Yeah,

4:02

and if you look at his career, Joe, we're

4:04

going to have Barnacle and Lupica kind of break this

4:06

down for us, but 23 seasons

4:08

with the same team, that's something you don't see

4:10

very often, certainly not anymore. There's

4:13

a picture going around yesterday of him standing

4:16

at third base with all his Gold Glove awards, and

4:18

it's actually preposterous. There's 16

4:20

trophies. He won 16 consecutive

4:23

Gold Gloves. Jonathan Lemire played in 18

4:25

All-Star games. They call them the

4:28

Hoover because he vacuumed up anything

4:30

that came even close to him at third base,

4:32

the greatest defensive third baseman certainly in the

4:34

history of the game. And as Joe said, by all accounts,

4:37

one of the best guys around baseball ever. Just a complete

4:39

class sack, and the tributes came pouring out yesterday.

4:43

He was an American League MVP. He won a World Series

4:45

MVP. He was a World Series champion. And

4:48

without question, the greatest defensive

4:50

third baseman of all time, and arguably

4:53

the greatest defensive player of all

4:55

time. You simply couldn't get the ball past

4:57

him. Jen Palmieri, I know you're an Orioles fan. You

5:00

know, this is certainly a life well-lived,

5:03

the tributes pouring out, but certainly a sad

5:05

day coming at a time when the Orioles

5:07

are on the verge of the blast.

5:08

I know. I mean, it's sad, but it's sort of poignant.

5:12

You think of the Orioles, you think of Brooks Robinson, Cal Ripken.

5:15

We are the proud owners of a sign Brooks Robinson

5:17

baseball at our fair young home. There you

5:19

go.

5:19

All right. We'll have more on that

5:21

coming up. We have so much going on today. We

5:24

begin with a major ruling

5:26

in a civil case against Donald Trump and

5:29

his family business. In

5:32

a 35 page decision yesterday, Manhattan

5:34

judge Arthur Engoren found

5:36

the former president and his two oldest

5:39

sons and their companies

5:42

liable for fraud. According

5:44

to the judge, the Trump spent years inflating

5:47

the value of their assets and financial statements

5:49

given to banks and insurance companies.

5:52

The ruling is tied to a case brought

5:54

by New York attorney general Letitia

5:56

James in 2019, which

5:59

was scheduled. to go to a bench trial

6:02

early next week. Yesterday,

6:04

the judge effectively decided

6:06

he didn't need a trial to determine

6:09

the Trumps were liable. The judge

6:11

wrote in his ruling, quote, this is a fantasy

6:13

world, not the real world. And admonished

6:16

the former president for his overvaluing

6:19

his holdings by as much as $2.2 billion.

6:24

In one example, Trump overestimated

6:27

the size of his Manhattan

6:29

apartment. Which he spent years living

6:31

in by 19,000 feet or 200%. John

6:38

John Gorin called that absurd, writing,

6:40

quote, a discrepancy of this order of

6:42

magnitude by a real estate developer

6:45

sizing up his own living space

6:47

of decades can only be considered

6:49

fraud. You know, Willie, I'm going to,

6:52

I'm going to have to go back. This

6:54

is, this is a good reminder. Why is this? You

6:56

always, my, it's always size issue, but like

6:58

my 21,000 foot condo,

7:01

uh, I may be off by about 19,000

7:03

feet. Maybe I need to

7:05

go back and, and sort of re-estimate

7:08

that. What? Yeah. Lightly off, lightly

7:11

off on those numbers. And that's just one of the properties

7:13

we're going to talk about here. Next week's bench trial

7:15

will proceed. So the judge can determine the size

7:17

now of the punishment. Attorney general

7:20

James sued Trump for $250 million. The

7:23

judge already has granted her one of the other major

7:25

punishments. She saw it to cancel the business certificates

7:27

that allow many of Trump's New York properties to

7:30

operate. This means Trump could lose control

7:33

of his New York properties. In addition to other real estate,

7:35

including Trump tower in midtown Manhattan.

7:38

The Trump's lose their appeals. They could also be

7:40

banned from ever doing business again in New

7:42

York state. They say me yesterday, the former

7:45

president's attorney called the decision, quote, completely

7:47

disconnected from the facts and governing law. The

7:50

judge also sanctioned Trump's attorney $7,500

7:53

a piece yesterday for making

7:55

legal arguments that had already been rejected. Trump

7:58

himself reacted to the ruling with his. a series

8:00

of posts on social media attacking

8:02

the judge, as you can imagine, Hallease Sewing and

8:05

the New York Attorney General. Spring

8:07

and former US Attorney, Senior FBI official,

8:09

Chuck Rosenberg, NBC News Investigations

8:11

correspondent Tom Winter and reporter

8:14

on the investigations desk at the New York Times,

8:17

Russ Butner. Good morning to you all. Russ, we'll start

8:19

with you. You've been covering this closely. Can you just boil

8:21

down for our audience what's going on

8:23

here and exactly what Trump did, alleged

8:25

to have done here and why the judge

8:28

viewed it as fraud? Well,

8:31

if you read the documents

8:33

that were filed in this case from the judge's decision, it's a very

8:36

clear example of misleading

8:39

the banks that he's presenting these documents to in

8:41

a fraudulent way. He's not just overstating

8:44

values, as he said. He's actually

8:46

withholding information that they have

8:48

found, that they know themselves to be true

8:51

from the banks. They're taking, they've

8:54

had assessments done to the property that

8:57

show one value, they're presenting another value.

8:59

There are documents that have been filed

9:02

where they can't raise

9:04

the rent on certain apartment buildings, but they

9:07

act like they could sell those as congos

9:09

with no regulations on them at all. They

9:11

have properties where they can actually develop

9:13

it, but there is an evaluation that suggests that

9:15

they could develop it. So this isn't just playing

9:18

with the numbers, as the Trump organization has said.

9:21

This is them actually withholding information in

9:23

a fraudulent way and increasing the value

9:25

of these things. The judge is going to be the finer

9:27

of fact in this case. When it does go to

9:29

trial, he is

9:32

essentially the jury, and he said there's already

9:34

been enough information presented on this first

9:36

count, really the most important count, to

9:38

find them essentially guilty and

9:41

to then move on to damages. And then we'll get

9:43

to a trial on the remaining six

9:45

counts there. So Tom, Donald Trump has exaggerated

9:47

his entire life well before he got into

9:50

politics. He would inflate

9:52

the sense of his worth. He would talk about

9:54

his apartment building. My favorite example of this is

9:56

Trump Tower. It's actually a 58-story building, but

9:58

one another building went up in the neighborhood. a little taller, he

10:00

simply renumbered the floors in the elevator

10:03

to claim that it was 68 stories, so therefore

10:05

he could still have in his estimation

10:07

the tallest building. But now there are real

10:10

consequences and it seems to be there's

10:12

a chance that he could lose his business,

10:14

his ability to produce business in

10:16

New York State, which is where his empire is

10:19

located, it's where Trump Tower is, it's where he's got

10:21

several golf courses. How realistic

10:23

is that to happen? What would that mean? I

10:25

mean, I think at this point it's very realistic. We'll

10:28

have to find out what the appellate courts say about

10:30

this and Trump has obviously vowed to appeal,

10:32

but so far they have not taken kindly to

10:34

his arguments in New York State. The

10:37

Attorney General absolutely has the authority to do so

10:39

if it's upheld by the Appellate Division, the

10:41

first Appellate Division in the state of New York. So

10:43

that's number one. What was interesting are the other

10:46

legal arguments that were addressed yesterday by

10:48

the judge. The Trumps have repeatedly said, look, with

10:50

respect to these financial documents, these statements

10:53

of financial condition. When Trump talks

10:55

about it in his deposition with the Attorney General

10:57

himself, saying, look, there's a worthless cause here,

11:00

effectively saying do your own homework. I'm

11:02

saying I'm worth, you know, $50 billion.

11:04

But it's up to you to go back and look at these various

11:07

properties and these various documents to determine

11:09

whether or not you believe that. We're not making

11:11

any sort of guarantees as to the picture

11:14

that we're painting here. And the judge says, look,

11:16

if you look at New York case law, it's

11:19

clear that it doesn't matter how sophisticated

11:21

the party is that's looking at these documents, who's

11:23

involved with it, if it's a bunch of banks, a bunch of people

11:26

that count these beans for a living,

11:28

if you will. It doesn't matter under

11:30

New York state law. The bottom line is you try

11:32

to defraud them by presenting

11:35

these statements of financial conditions that

11:37

he says, the judge says, not based

11:39

on any sort of reality in a number

11:41

of instances. On top of that, Trump

11:44

and his kids have repeatedly said, look,

11:46

nobody's lost any money

11:47

on our loans.

11:49

We banks have made tens of millions of dollars

11:51

of interest. But the judge pointed out something interesting

11:54

in his ruling. He says, look, if you look

11:56

at this, the banks would have gotten

11:58

tens of millions of dollars an interest because

12:00

they never would have given you the loan terms

12:03

that you were able to receive. And I think that's an important

12:05

point. I go up to Sixth Avenue right now and

12:07

take up a collection for the banks. I know I'm not going to get

12:09

a lot of money or a lot of sympathy for them, but

12:12

those banks do have investors. They do have shareholders

12:14

or they do have institutions. And

12:16

I think it's important to know, as my colleague Gretchen

12:18

Morgenson has pointed out in her reporting

12:20

here at NBC, that the last

12:23

real financial institution to give the Trump's

12:25

loans, there's a company called Ladder Capital,

12:29

Allen Weisselberg, the former CFO's

12:33

son, his son

12:35

is the one who put forward those

12:38

loans and was able to make those financial transactions.

12:41

Interesting. Chuck Rosenberg in the kaleidoscope

12:44

of legal issues facing this former president,

12:47

including the 91 counts in foreign dietmen,

12:49

Stormy Daniels, defamation,

12:51

where does this one stand and what are the

12:54

real consequences, if any, that

12:56

this former president might see imminently?

13:00

Yeah, so it's a significant case,

13:02

Mika, and a significant ruling

13:04

by the judge. You know, often you see in these

13:07

opinions that the language that a court uses

13:09

is rather muted. It's rather polite.

13:12

It's rather understated, not

13:15

here. I think the judge

13:17

was outraged and rightfully so

13:19

when the language is clear, he believes that the

13:22

valuations that the Trump team put on

13:24

their properties was a fantasy that

13:26

was completely untethered to reality. So

13:29

where does it stack up? Important

13:31

to note, this is a civil case, not a criminal

13:33

case. And so even though the judge

13:35

found fraud, widespread rampant

13:38

fraud in the valuations, nobody's

13:40

going to jail because of this case.

13:43

You can't go to jail on a civil case. But

13:46

to Tom Winters' point, and to Russ's

13:49

point, the business can

13:51

lose its ability to function,

13:53

to operate in New York state. And

13:56

so the consequences, while they're not criminal

13:59

and they're not

14:00

jail

14:01

can be dire for the Trump

14:04

organization and for its properties. So

14:06

where does it stack up a significant

14:08

finding and a significant case by a judge

14:10

who is outraged at the way the Trump folks

14:12

have conducted themselves? But

14:15

it will not result in jail time because it's a civil

14:17

case.

14:18

So, Joe and I guess, Jim

14:21

Palmieri on the politics of this, when

14:23

you look at the seriousness that Chuck talks

14:25

about. And also, I think this is a case that

14:29

the American people can understand because it's

14:31

something Trump's been known for yesterday.

14:33

We were talking so much about how Joe Biden

14:35

needs to get out there and really punch at

14:38

these legal issues that Trump is

14:40

facing or maybe the Democrats. But

14:42

doesn't it make more sense when

14:44

judges do it? Isn't that

14:47

where it should come from? And when you read this,

14:49

I think it's impactful and it doesn't

14:51

become, you know, have you read the Mueller

14:54

report? I mean, have you read any of the

14:56

impeachment reports? Have you

14:59

read any of the the indictments

15:01

against Donald Trump? I'm saying, you

15:03

know, it's their job. People aren't going to

15:05

be reading. Swing voters aren't going to be reading

15:08

federal New York state

15:10

judges ruling. There are there

15:12

are just unbelievably

15:15

damning statements in there. You know he's going to

15:17

truth about it or whatever his

15:19

stupid platform is. He's going to

15:21

start spouting off. This will get to

15:23

people. They were going to I mean, Letitia

15:26

James has been looking

15:28

at Trump for years now. Trump has definitely

15:31

talked about her. This will get out there and this fits

15:34

his his game that he's been

15:36

accused of all along and that's all about the

15:38

size of things. He always over

15:40

blows the size of things

15:42

that he owns

15:43

or thinks that he does. And

15:45

everything. So let's so let's talk

15:47

about, though. I mean, the fact that, again,

15:50

what should the Biden campaign

15:52

do? I'm not saying the president should do it. But

15:55

you know what? A judge,

15:57

Jen, has found this guy guilty of

15:59

fraud. Another judge

16:02

in New York state said he raped Eugene

16:05

Carroll. The jury found him liable

16:07

of sexual assault. The

16:10

jury found him liable of defamation.

16:13

That's what we already know has already

16:15

come down the pipe. You have, of course,

16:18

in the United

16:21

States case against Donald Trump for

16:23

stealing nuclear secrets, for stealing

16:26

war plans against Iran. You've

16:29

got in the state of Georgia, another

16:33

state run by Republicans. You've

16:35

got

16:37

him up and 20 of

16:39

his associates up for trying to steal

16:42

an

16:42

election there. All of this

16:44

adds up, but it all needs

16:47

to be boiled down

16:49

and put out to voters. And we can't expect

16:51

federal judges to do it or state judges

16:54

to do it or anybody else to do it. But the Biden campaign,

16:56

the question is, are they able

16:58

to do that? Do they have the ability to punch back?

17:01

Sure. I mean, look what they did in 2020, and tomorrow

17:03

the president is giving a speech.

17:04

Is

17:06

it

17:06

tomorrow? Right. Yes. It's Wednesday, right? Yes, Wednesday.

17:09

Thursday he's giving a speech in Arizona that's

17:11

billed as a democracy

17:12

speech. I think this is probably

17:14

linked to both the,

17:17

you know, to respond

17:18

to the Republican debate tonight and

17:20

then also looming shutdown

17:22

in democracy not working. I think they're really

17:24

good at this. I think the question is, and the

17:26

UAW thing yesterday is a good example

17:29

of the sort of

17:34

choices that they have to make. If

17:37

the president had gone into

17:39

Michigan and all he had done is attack

17:42

Trump, there are workers,

17:45

you know, a lot of UAW workers are probably

17:47

going to vote for Donald Trump or certainly voted for

17:49

him in 2020 and 2016.

17:51

So I understand

17:53

that Jim, you can do two things at once. You

17:55

can do two things at once, but I think what is the question?

17:58

Isn't it even more effective?

17:59

isn't even more effective to have him with

18:02

a bullhorn doing that on the bucket

18:04

lines while his campaign

18:07

is just unleashing one video after another

18:10

video after another video, just

18:12

pummeling Donald Trump's, uh,

18:15

legal woes. One after

18:18

another. The Trump people are doing

18:20

it. They're paying third parties

18:22

to viciously attack Ron

18:24

DeSantis, to use AI technology

18:27

to attack Ron DeSantis. They're

18:30

doing it around the clock. You would

18:32

think the white house would be able to do two

18:34

things at once. John Satterman did

18:36

it when he ran in the Senate. Yeah. That's

18:38

what the president of the United States should be doing. But

18:40

his, his campaign operation, I

18:43

don't know if everybody's over 80 in his campaign

18:45

operation, but his campaign operation,

18:48

they need to put stuff out that makes

18:50

people go every morning. Oh my God. Did

18:53

you see what the Bush, what the Biden

18:55

campaign put out yesterday? We never

18:57

say that. There is a,

18:59

this is where the silos help you, right? The media is really

19:01

siloed. You can have the president do one thing.

19:04

The campaign can do something else and the

19:06

UAW workers that are here in the president in

19:08

Michigan, aren't going to be receiving the stuff that's

19:10

siloed in and on digital. So sure

19:13

you should do both. That's what campaigns are

19:15

for. And it does sure feel

19:16

like this week, the general election started and

19:18

you know, Trump is acting

19:20

that way and the Biden campaign

19:22

should do. So Russ back to the business side

19:24

of this from the politics. What is your sense

19:26

having covered this so closely about where this goes

19:29

from here? I mean, there's a lot of talk of Donald Trump

19:31

being effectively booted out of New York city

19:33

as a real estate developer, 40 wall

19:35

street, Trump tower, the properties

19:37

up in Westchester that he has. Is that

19:39

realistic that he could be stripped of his ability

19:42

to do business in the city and the state? Yeah.

19:44

I mean, that's, that's the big question today.

19:46

Some lawyers have called this sort of a corporate

19:48

death penalty that the judges ordered these

19:51

LLCs to control these properties to be

19:53

shut down. And then a discouraged

19:56

of their assets. But these are

19:58

not just his New York. work entities. EJT

20:01

Holdings also controls most of his

20:03

golf courses around the country and around the world.

20:06

There's one entity and it starts with a 401. That's

20:09

the entity that owns his Chicago Tower. So

20:11

that's a big question. If you dissolve

20:13

these entities and discourage them of their assets,

20:15

that's the show. That's the whole thing. So

20:18

he's going to fight this until the end. I'm

20:21

sure he'll go up to New York State's highest court and

20:23

probably back down a couple of times. But

20:25

this is, if it's as

20:28

simple as what the judge states here and it holds,

20:30

it is a very serious

20:33

few years that he's got ahead of him here that could end

20:35

it all. The Trump adult son,

20:37

Don Jr. and Eric involved in this as well. Eric

20:39

put out a statement yesterday attacking the judge, of course,

20:42

and saying he values Mar-a-Lago, Eric

20:44

Trump does, at $1 billion. That's

20:47

the number he put on it. So we'll leave that

20:49

to the realtors down there in Palm Beach. But

20:53

what is your sense of what comes next? Obviously, Donald

20:55

Trump and his team, like all these trials are going to try to

20:57

delay, kick the can down the road a little bit.

21:00

What does it look like when the bench trial starts next week,

21:02

if it does in fact? Sure. So as

21:04

you said, bench trial, right? So not a jury trial. And

21:06

I think the key thing that still needs to

21:08

be decided here are a couple of issues. First

21:11

off, the judge did not decide on the issues

21:13

and will wait for the bench trial to determine whether

21:15

or not the Trump organization falsified business

21:17

documents. Now we know for the Manhattan DA's

21:20

case, they were convicted of doing exactly

21:22

that. But this particular suit

21:24

goes beyond it. Of course, there's no criminal penalties,

21:26

as Chuck pointed out. But that could

21:28

also factor into what happens here from

21:31

a civil suit perspective. And then, of course,

21:33

this disgorgement, the quarter of a billion

21:35

dollars that the New York Attorney General is

21:37

seeking, what happens with that?

21:40

How much of that is actually imposed?

21:43

And what does that ultimately mean? I think that's the

21:45

big question mark for the Trump organization, to Russ's

21:47

point, what that ultimately means for Donald

21:49

Trump and his assets and his

21:51

personal wealth going into this

21:54

election and going on for the rest of his life and for

21:56

the Trump family. So I think it

21:58

is difficult. ruling was for them

22:01

yesterday, the real danger, the disgorgement,

22:04

the fact that the money and the assets could really be

22:06

taken away from them, that real danger

22:08

lurks right around the corner.

22:10

You know, it's interesting, voters all have

22:12

different ways and different things that get

22:15

to them. And I personally

22:18

think Letitia James was onto something

22:20

when she did this. I know a lot of business

22:22

owners

22:22

who are Trump supporters but

22:24

are slowly going,

22:25

is it too much? They

22:27

pay their taxes, they play by the rules,

22:30

they don't lie about the size

22:32

of their hardware stores or their shops

22:34

or their homes. And

22:37

reading this could be more insulting

22:39

than some of the other things that could be just, you know what,

22:41

they're too busy

22:42

for it, they're too focused on their own business. Like

22:44

stealing nuclear secrets, maybe like I don't get

22:47

that. But he did have a value. No, I'm

22:49

not saying they don't get it at all.

22:50

I'm just saying

22:53

it's not personal. This is personal.

22:56

This is what Trump has, this has been his

22:58

game, exaggerating to rip

23:00

people off. And most

23:02

American voters are good people who play by the

23:05

rules and love this country. Chuck,

23:07

I'm curious in terms of all the legal challenges

23:10

facing Donald Trump, what are we looking at

23:12

next down the line?

23:13

Well, if you want to talk

23:16

about all of the legal challenges, Nico, we're

23:18

going to need a couple more hours this morning.

23:20

I mean, there are four pending indictments.

23:23

There are civil cases in New York and

23:25

elsewhere. And who knows what tomorrow

23:28

will bring for the Trump team? You know, it was interesting

23:30

to me in terms of valuations. And

23:33

I know that doesn't sound like something that would

23:35

go together, interesting in valuations. But

23:38

if you read the opinion, in one

23:40

instance, the judge cited the fact that Mr.

23:42

Trump had overvalued his

23:45

Mar-a-Lago property. If you compare

23:47

it to what the county assessor thought it was worth,

23:50

by 2300 percent. I

23:52

mean, that is not a rounding error. And

23:55

so this is not a mistake.

23:57

This is not inadvertence. not

24:00

the fact that they didn't pay attention to detail,

24:03

is that they committed an egregious fraud on the

24:05

banks. And maybe the banks aren't sympathetic victims,

24:07

but as Tom Winter pointed out earlier, they

24:10

have investors. And those investors

24:12

are entitled to their

24:14

banks being given full and fair and free

24:16

information. And that didn't

24:18

happen. And so lots

24:20

of legal challenges for Mr. Trump, the most

24:22

significant are the ones that could put him in jail.

24:25

The two federal indictments, the two

24:27

state indictments, one in Georgia and one in New York.

24:30

If you're thinking about worst case scenarios,

24:32

if you're lying awake at night and staring at the ceiling,

24:36

it's depending criminal cases. But

24:38

from a business risk perspective,

24:41

the fact that they could lose the right

24:44

to do business in New York, that they could lose

24:46

their business certificates, that they might have to disgorge

24:49

profits, is extraordinarily

24:52

significant for this company. As the judge

24:54

pointed out, the company built on lies and

24:57

fantasy in many ways.

24:59

Wow. Former US Attorney Chuck Rosenberg

25:02

and NBC's Tom Winter. Thank you very

25:04

much. And New York Times reporter Russ

25:06

Buettner. Thank you all very

25:08

much for your reporting and insight this morning.

25:11

That is a big

25:13

story.

25:13

It is. It really is. And we'll be

25:15

following the different contours of it

25:17

throughout the four hours here on Morning

25:20

Joe and still ahead on Morning Joe. We'll

25:22

show you Joe Biden's message for striking

25:24

auto workers in Michigan as

25:26

he became the first sitting

25:29

president to join a picket line.

25:31

Plus we'll speak with Congresswoman Alyssa Slotkin

25:34

on the heels of the president's historic

25:36

visit to her state. Also ahead,

25:38

former White House aide Cassidy

25:41

Hutchinson will be our guest with

25:43

her insider account of the chaos

25:45

that unfolded over the final days

25:48

of the Trump

25:48

presidency. You're

25:50

watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back.

26:18

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27:07

As I said, I'm here to do the work of the people of New

27:09

Jersey. Why won't you resign, sir? Because I'm innocent.

27:11

What's wrong with you guys? Why were there gold bars there? All

27:16

right, that's our own NBC's Ryan

27:18

Nibbles trying to get an answer out of Senator

27:21

Bob Menendez, who will be arraigned

27:23

this morning as a number of Democratic

27:26

senators calling for his resignation

27:28

swells to nearly half the

27:30

Senate chamber. Menendez

27:32

will make his first appearance in a Manhattan

27:34

federal court with his wife Nadine and

27:37

three other co-defendants on charges

27:39

that include conspiracy to commit bribery.

27:42

The New Jersey lawmaker and his wife both

27:44

insist they did nothing wrong.

27:47

As of last night, at least 24 Senate

27:49

Democrats have called on Menendez to

27:52

step down, including his

27:54

longtime friend, fellow New Jersey

27:57

Senator Cory Booker. In

27:59

a statement, Booker said... Joker praised Menendez as

28:01

a person and friend but called

28:03

his refusal to resign a mistake.

28:06

Writing in part, quote, stepping down is not an

28:08

admission of guilt, but an acknowledgment

28:11

that holding public office often demands

28:13

tremendous sacrifices

28:16

at great personal cost. Senator

28:18

Menendez has made these sacrifices

28:20

in the past to serve. And in this

28:23

case, he must do so again. I believe

28:25

stepping down is best for those Senator

28:27

Menendez has spent his life

28:30

serving.

28:31

Menendez was forced to step down

28:33

as chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee

28:35

after the indictment was issued last week, but

28:38

he has been defiant to give up his Senate

28:40

seat. Earlier this week, Menendez

28:43

claimed nearly half million dollars

28:45

prosecutors say they found stepped

28:47

in the envelopes and closed during a search

28:49

of his home was money that he had withdrawn

28:52

regularly over decades.

28:55

Willie.

28:56

Always a bad day, Mika, when reporters are yelling

28:58

through closing elevator doors. What about the

29:00

gold bars in your house? That's

29:02

not so good. Senator Menendez has been getting

29:05

support, though, from across the aisle, some

29:07

Republicans coming to his defense against

29:09

those calls for him to step down. One is Senator

29:12

Tom Cotton of Arkansas, who argued a jury

29:14

should decide the New Jersey senators' fate.

29:16

In a post on social media, Senator Cotton wrote

29:19

in part, he should be judged by jurors

29:21

and New Jersey's voters, not by Democratic politicians

29:24

who now view him as inconvenient to their

29:26

hold on power. Senator Marco Rubio

29:28

of Florida echoed that sentiment posting in part,

29:30

quote, in America, guilt is decided

29:33

by a jury, not politicians in fear

29:35

of their party losing a Senate seat. Republican

29:37

senators J.D. Vance, Susan Collins, Ted

29:40

Cruz also joined the Wait and See

29:42

chorus, all said the charges appear serious,

29:44

but that is up to the courts and New Jersey voters

29:47

to decide the New Jersey lawmakers'

29:49

fate. So, Jen, obviously

29:52

the dam broke yesterday when Cory Booker, Menendez's

29:55

fellow New Jersey Senator,

29:56

he put out that statement and now 24 down.

29:59

We were on the air yesterday around this

30:02

time for I think Democrats

30:04

had called for him to resign good Senator Stabenow

30:06

on she said she wasn't there yet but

30:09

you know the argument from Republicans and Tom

30:11

Cotton is you know Democrats

30:13

are worried about their grip on power it also could be

30:15

that they hold their colleagues to a different

30:18

standard than Republicans do.

30:19

It's a rare moment of consistency for

30:22

Republican senators I mean I'm not like not

30:24

being sarcastic I was I'm surprised who's normally

30:26

they'll just have one set of rules for Trump

30:28

and say everything he does is fine and one set of rules for

30:31

Democratic senators but they're being consistent

30:33

now to say that that the jury should

30:36

decide. I think that the Booker

30:40

statement was sort of the model for this which is

30:42

you have public trust and

30:45

the question says just

30:47

about the behavior and what it shows in terms of his

30:50

judgment is enough to say that

30:52

he should step aside you know whether he actually

30:54

and he may never do that I think

30:56

that the only thing Democrats can do is say what he

30:58

should you know what should happen here and you

31:01

know and that's enough to be living

31:03

up to the standard. As far as senators stressing

31:05

that resign does not mean an admission of guilt it just means

31:07

that you can't serve people of New Jersey anymore

31:10

and I think that we'll get more more

31:12

of his colleagues say the same today that it is that

31:14

it is time to go there

31:17

is you know certainly if they were not to do that

31:19

if they were to remain silent on Menendez that

31:21

would defang their ability to attack Trump

31:23

for the same they're trying to say Trump is under all these indictments

31:26

he's not fit to serve the same standard

31:28

has to apply it does seem an end as was famously stubborn

31:31

you know he certainly said yesterday that he

31:33

would not resign there's some suggestion perhaps

31:35

that he would hold on to his feet and try to use it

31:38

as a chip in a possible plea deal if

31:40

it were to go that route so I don't know that we should

31:42

expect him to listen to those calls to step

31:44

away but expect him to pick up in the days ahead.

31:46

All right coming up the first

31:49

impeachment inquiry hearing surrounding

31:51

President Biden is set for tomorrow

31:54

but the Republican lawmaker leading the hearing

31:56

says it won't cover any new

31:58

ground.

31:58

Hey, it's Chris Hayes.

32:20

We are just back from Austin, Texas for

32:22

the first stop on our Why Is This Happening Fall Tour.

32:25

I take care of my conversation with former federal prosecutors

32:28

and hosts of MSNBC's prosecuting

32:30

Donald Trump podcast, Andrew Weissman and

32:32

Mary McCord.

32:33

It's not as though people who

32:35

are extraordinarily wealthy always escape

32:37

criminal prosecution, but definitely

32:40

the system operates differently.

32:42

It's oftentimes not

32:43

because of the way the prosecutors

32:46

would view a case. It's because of the resources

32:48

that the people who are wealthy have. I

32:50

think that what Donald Trump has done

32:53

is quickly learned where

32:56

there are fissures in the structure

32:58

that's created so that he can exert

33:01

power. This week on Why Is This Happening,

33:03

search for why is this happening wherever you're listening right now.

33:06

Protect our children from

33:09

being indoctrinated. Stop hurting kids with these

33:11

politics. This is the story of a Texas

33:13

town that became the front line of a culture

33:16

war. The younger teaching generation

33:18

has been pushing that our kids can be any gender

33:20

they want to see. And an English teacher

33:22

caught in the middle. I hope they're right

33:24

in the hole. You're not a

33:27

bad person. You're

33:31

high. From a team that brought you Southlake,

33:34

this is a six part podcast series about

33:36

faith, power and food means to

33:38

protect children in an American suburb.

33:41

This was a kind of sweeping joy. From

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NBC News Studios, this is Grey Vine. The

33:46

first two episodes are available Wednesday, October

33:49

4th.

33:50

Follow wherever you get your podcasts.

33:59

the White House and the sun just starts to peak up

34:02

at 639 in the morning. Last week, President

34:04

Biden announced the creation of the White

34:06

House Office of Gun Violence Prevention

34:08

to be led by Vice President Kamala Harris.

34:11

Through an executive order, the president wrote

34:13

that he was determined to send a clear

34:15

message about how important this issue is to

34:17

me and to the country. Among its first

34:19

directives will be to ensure a federal gun

34:21

safety law passed last year is being fully

34:24

implemented. The office also will

34:26

seek to find ways to stop increasing

34:29

violence nationwide without any additional

34:31

action from Congress. This morning, the

34:33

nonprofit organization, Sandy Hook Promise,

34:35

is unveiling its latest public service announcement,

34:38

underscoring how important it is to take threats

34:41

of gun violence seriously. It's titled,

34:43

Just Joking. The spot features a

34:45

lineup of renowned comedians who deliver

34:47

the sobering message that threats

34:50

are not jokes. Here now, an exclusive

34:52

first look.

35:20

The day

35:23

my massacre begins.

35:26

Some of you guys are alright. Don't

35:29

go to school tomorrow. I

35:33

mean it. After

35:36

all the name calling, I want to go down

35:39

in the best mood you may have ever seen.

35:53

Join us now, the co-founder, CEO of the

35:56

Sandy Hook Promise Foundation, Nicole Hockley.

35:58

She lost her six-year-old son. Dylan in

36:01

the Sandy Hook shooting in 2012. Nicole,

36:03

it's nice to see you again. Tell us

36:05

about that PSA and why

36:08

people need to take these threats. And sometimes people

36:10

can dismiss as, oh, it's a kid popping off on

36:12

social media, or he sent a text. He was probably

36:14

just joking. Don't worry about it. Why

36:16

this is such an important message.

36:18

It's an important message for exactly the reasons

36:20

you just said. A lot of times when we first launched

36:23

the Say Something program, we

36:25

teach kids how to recognize the warning signs. But

36:27

we've often heard from them that they don't

36:29

want to report something because

36:30

they don't think it's serious. They say, they're

36:33

putting it out there on social media. They don't really

36:35

need it. Or they're just joking.

36:36

We want

36:37

students and young people and the adults around

36:40

them to understand that when you see a threat of

36:42

violence, you have to take it seriously. Because

36:44

all of the threats that you just saw in that PSA

36:47

were made by real school shooters. And

36:49

there's a longer version of this PSA that attributes

36:51

each of those quotes to

36:53

the different shootings that

36:54

took place. So you need to take these threats of

36:56

violence seriously because it's not a joke.

36:58

And it could have life-altering consequences.

37:01

Do you get the sense? I have two

37:03

teenagers, so I'm sort of in this, that

37:05

people have started to take teachers, administration.

37:08

But even kids now, I hear

37:10

and see, are taking it more seriously

37:12

where 12 years ago before

37:14

Sandy Hook, oh, come on. But now they go,

37:16

wait a minute. If that turns into something

37:19

deadly, I want to be the one to have stopped it. Yeah.

37:21

We know that kids,

37:23

young people really want to be upstanders. They

37:25

don't want to just be passing bystanders.

37:27

And when someone needs help, they want to reach in. And

37:30

what we do with

37:30

our programs is teach them how to unlock those

37:33

tools and to do something. And we're seeing the

37:35

tangible evidence that that works. We know from research

37:37

that the programs show that when a child receives

37:40

their programming,

37:41

they are more likely to take action. And we

37:43

also have the tangible evidence of the kids

37:45

that have reported things to our

37:47

anonymous reporting system that have already stopped 15

37:49

credible planned school shooting

37:51

plots. And it's those kind of threats that you

37:53

saw in that PSA that they're tipping in and

37:55

saying, this person is going

37:57

to do something and I need help now.

37:58

So Nicole, how do you. Well, you assessed the progress

38:01

made over the last decade or so since Sandy

38:03

Hook on this issue, the burst of activism

38:05

that surrounded Parkland, of course, the tragedy of New Baldy.

38:08

As Willie just mentioned, the White House has started this new

38:11

office to try to prevent gun violence.

38:13

There was that bipartisan bill that was passed last

38:15

year, modest, but still the first one in a long time.

38:19

Where do you think we are and how hopeful

38:21

you are that war can come? Well,

38:22

each of these steps are a step towards

38:25

a safer future. And I think we shouldn't ignore

38:27

the cumulative

38:28

effects of all of these changes. We're seeing

38:30

great things happen in states. We're seeing things

38:32

happen in the White House. And a movement has

38:34

been really growing over the last 10 years.

38:37

The way that grassroots supporters are giving

38:39

their voice to this and saying, this is an issue I

38:41

care about. This is an issue I'm going to vote on.

38:44

And you need

38:44

to do something. So

38:45

the pressure is mounting and further action

38:48

needs to

38:48

be taking place.

38:49

I worked for communications

38:51

director when

38:55

the shooting happened, when your son was filled. And

38:58

President Obama also said that was for a state presidency.

39:01

But I know a close second

39:03

was when the Senate failed to

39:06

pass legislation to

39:08

deal with help. We're going to be able to pass background

39:10

checks in the Senate after the shooting. And

39:13

Vice President Biden had to walk

39:14

into the Roosevelt Room where you were and other

39:18

parents to say, no, the Senate's

39:20

not going to do anything.

39:21

Nothing's going to happen. But you

39:23

all, you and then Mark Barton,

39:25

who I know is another friend

39:27

of ours who lost his son, Daniel, who

39:30

told me his 18th birthday is today, started

39:33

this,

39:34

really gotten a lot done. And

39:36

what is so impressive is it's scientific,

39:38

right? You understand now you need to address that

39:41

joke or a threat. What kind of resources

39:43

do you all have available for people as

39:46

part of Sandy Hook's promise that

39:49

will help even outside of government action?

39:51

Sure. There's a lot of resources on our website

39:53

that really show

39:56

what the warning signs are. So it's great

39:58

for having a conversation, a parent to have a conversation. conversation

40:00

with their child about these are the things that

40:03

you should

40:03

be looking for. If someone is saying these things, if someone's

40:05

posting these things or these are things you hear

40:07

say something to me or another

40:09

trusted adult, it's also amazing

40:11

resources for schools. We've

40:13

had our programs in over 26,000 schools

40:16

across the country so far, reaching

40:18

over 21 million youth and adults

40:21

and that's how you have an impact is teaching people

40:23

how do you recognize the signs and then how

40:25

do you take action and then we support

40:27

that with

40:28

all of the policy work as well. We

40:30

stand in awe of you when we watch you every time

40:32

you join us that you've turned your unimaginable

40:34

grief into this activism over the last

40:37

decade and I think it's important

40:39

to point out because there's sometimes a sense of futility

40:42

about this in this country. Well we're awash in

40:44

guns, people are gonna die, they're gonna get shot,

40:46

there are more guns than people, there's only so much we

40:48

can do but there has been a ton

40:50

of progress made and it's important to underline

40:52

that in the last decade. How

40:54

do you wake up every morning and say this

40:57

is a fight worth having, we can do better?

40:59

It's a fight worth having because people are still dying

41:02

and sadly the amount of gun violence

41:03

in our country in school shootings is still increasing

41:06

and I simply don't want to continue

41:09

to meet parents who have lost their children in

41:11

shooting so this is something that I'm going to continue

41:13

to do for Dylan, for my surviving son

41:15

Jake and for all children.

41:17

So Joe, Nicole and I were just talking

41:19

as she sat down just this month, the

41:22

class, that first grade class, Sandy Hook,

41:25

our seniors, this is their last year

41:27

of high school and so

41:29

many kids like Dylan were denied the opportunity

41:31

to have their all these birthdays but

41:33

their senior year in high school. And

41:37

like Nicole said, this continues

41:40

every day, it happens every day to

41:43

more students, to more children, to

41:46

more grandmoms, to so many

41:48

other people. You know Nicole, I

41:51

wanted to underline what Willie said, we actually

41:54

have seen legislative progress

41:57

over the past decade, even

42:00

as we were all

42:02

shocked after Sandy

42:04

Hook by the

42:07

political inaction. So we

42:10

are moving in the right direction legislatively

42:14

over time and I think with attitudes over

42:16

time, but as you said, people

42:18

are still dying. I saw a statistic

42:22

not so long ago that showed that

42:25

the number of killings by guns

42:27

had actually gone up by I think 50%

42:29

in the decade

42:32

since Sandy Hook.

42:35

Yeah, it's shocking. I think at the moment

42:38

in the US, we're having on average

42:40

two mass shootings every single day. We've

42:43

already had around 230 school shootings this year.

42:47

These are horrible numbers and behind

42:49

each of those numbers are families and communities

42:52

that

42:52

are suffering and will suffer trauma for

42:54

the rest of their lives. We are making progress.

42:57

It's slow progress, but we are

43:00

continuing to push forward and we will continue to

43:02

push forward

43:02

until this is not the epidemic

43:04

that we have anymore. And Nicole, if people wanna get

43:06

information about some of the resources

43:08

you all provide, what's the best place for them to find

43:11

it? Simply go to our website, sandyhookpromise.org.

43:14

You can learn about the signs, you can learn how to bring the

43:16

programs to your school, you can learn how to have conversations

43:19

with your children

43:19

or with your friends. It's important

43:21

that everyone gets involved

43:22

because we all have a job to do

43:25

when it comes to taking warning signs seriously.

43:27

Co-founder of the Sandy Hook Promise

43:29

Foundation, Nicole Hockley, thank you for

43:31

being here. Thank you. And thank you for your

43:33

continuing courage. Thank you. As

43:36

I said, we are in awe of you. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Still

43:38

ahead this morning, Donald Trump allegedly lied

43:40

to insurers and defrauded banks and now

43:43

a judge says he's been doing that for

43:45

about a decade. We'll get more reporting about yesterday's

43:47

major fraud ruling against the former president.

43:50

Plus, quote, let's not

43:52

sleepwalk into another Trump presidency.

43:54

That's the title of a new piece from Vanity Fair

43:56

special correspondent, Molly Jong Fast.

43:59

She joins us next. with what is at stake. Also

44:01

ahead, we'll speak with former White House aide

44:03

Cassidy Hutchinson. What else

44:05

she's revealing about the disarray during the

44:07

final days of the Trump White House in her

44:10

new book. We're watching Morning Joe. We'll be

44:12

right back.

44:17

We have news now

44:19

out of North Korea. The rogue nation

44:21

has decided to expel the 23-year-old

44:24

soldier Travis King, who

44:27

illegally crossed into the country during

44:29

a tour in July. That's according to state

44:31

media, Korean Central News Agency.

44:34

They allege King has harbored

44:36

ill feelings over inhumane treatment

44:39

and racial discrimination within

44:41

the U.S. Army and was disillusioned

44:44

about the unequal U.S. society.

44:47

KCNA did not specify how,

44:49

when, or to where King

44:51

would be expelled. We'll continue

44:54

to follow this story throughout the morning. Hey

44:56

everybody, it's Joe Scarborough. Did

44:58

you know you can stream Morning Joe live

45:01

on Peacock? That's right. You can

45:03

find us in the Morning News live feature

45:05

every weekday beginning at 6 a.m. Head

45:08

to peacocktv.com slash

45:10

Morning Joe for more information. See

45:13

you there.