0:02

[Trailer] OF: You put all your ‘warts and all’ into

0:04

your podcast. Like, I know some of the worst things about you, because of your podcast.

0:10

Aric SHANG: Oh ****. [Intro] OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast

0:14

about people who are making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.

0:19

But is it really Mosaic of China? Actually no, because as this is the final episode of

0:25

the year, I've decided to switch it up and put something special in your podcast feed

0:29

today. It's the audio of a chat from another Shanghai-based English-language podcast called

0:34

The Honest Drink, hosted by Justin Yang, Howie Goh and Aric Shang. It's called The Honest

0:40

Drink because they make sure everyone is plied with alcohol during the recording, so the

0:44

resulting conversation is very uninhibited. The other part that I like about this show

0:49

is when the three hosts just talk among themselves, because they're all American Chinese guys

0:54

and it’s interesting to listen in on how they see the world through this specific lens.

0:59

Mostly I agree 100% with what they say, other times I want to bash their heads together

1:03

for only seeing things through this lens. But they always do a great job of keeping

1:08

it real. Let me also offer some more context, the recording was made a few weeks ago, just before I started

1:15

the mammoth task of recording the 30 new episodes for Season 03 of Mosaic of China. So you'll

1:21

hear that I was stressed out about that. At one point Aric says that he tries to keep

1:26

outwardly optimistic as a way of countering his more pessimistic inner voice. And of course,

1:31

the same can be said for me and for Mosaic of China, which has specifically been designed

1:36

to side-step negativity and to focus on people, culture and lifestyle. What you'll hear in

1:42

this episode is much more of that inner voice that I don't usually share, which isn't just

1:47

because of the effort of producing this podcast, it's also to do with the crunch point that

1:51

many international people in China are facing right now. In COVID times, it has been incredibly

1:58

complicated to leave and come back to China, so after two years of playing 'wait and see',

2:03

many people are deciding to leave for good, including foreigners who have been here for

2:08

decades, even including some mainland Chinese who are separated from loved ones overseas.

2:14

That's not to say that they dislike China, far from it, we've all been grateful to be

2:17

here. It's just that we are all having a taste what it meant to be émigrés in the past

2:22

- or indeed refugees in the present - when leaving your home country meant that you don't

2:27

have the luxury of returning. Until now we've always had the privilege of having the best

2:31

of both worlds. But now, none of us know whether we're living in a COVID phase, or a COVID

2:37

era, so there are difficult choices to be made. Having said that, difficult choices

2:42

are still choices, so we're still privileged in that sense. And to end on an even more

2:47

optimistic note, as I speak today I have now recorded 18 of the new episodes, so I'm hopefully

2:53

on track to launch the new season in Spring of next year.

2:58

Having offered my respect to Justin, Howie and Aric, I've also disrespected them because

3:03

I've edited the original audio by beeping out the worst of the swearing, and chopping

3:07

off about 30 minutes of the conversation. So if you want to hear the original, please

3:12

go and find episode #99 of The Honest Drink podcast wherever you're listening to this.

3:16

And while you're there, go ahead and subscribe. Here's wishing you all a great end to the

3:21

year, and I'll be back again with the next compilation episode from Season 02 in January.

3:26

[Main] Justin YANG: We got a fun one today. Our guest

3:30

is the host of the Mosaic of China podcast. It's a popular and wonderful podcast with

3:34

a diverse range of guests exploring the lives of people who are making their mark in China.

3:39

We share many laughs along the way. It was such a great time talking to our guest. So

3:44

without further ado, please welcome Oscar Fuchs.

3:49

JY: Oh, 23 OF: I mean, that means nothing to me.

4:12

JY: it means it's good. OF: It means it's good.Yeah. But if it's too

4:19

good, then don’t waste it on me. That's also the issue.

4:21

JYL You’re too polite, Oscar. You’re too polite.

4:24

OF: I’m English. We're not really polite. We just use it as a weapon.

4:28

JY: Here, make your own gin and tonic, however you'd like to make it.

4:33

OF: Do you have any lime, by the way? JY: I do not.

4:36

OF: OK. JY: I’m sorry. Ooh, what is this amateur

4:40

production that we’re running here? OF: Yeah man. A gin and tonic without lime.

4:44

All right. JY: No no wait, hold on. Let's do the whiskey

4:47

first. OF: OK. JY: Oscar, you say you hate whiskey? Is that right?

4:51

OF: Oh are we already recording? Aric SHANG: Yeah, we are.

4:53

JY: Oh, we’re rolling. Howie GOH: We are hot. OF: Wait, what did I say until now? I have never been able to drink whiskey. I've tried.

5:02

It's one of those things where I know I should like it. And everyone's a connoisseur with

5:05

whiskey. So I keep on trying to train myself. And each time I end up failing. So let’s

5:12

see if it works this time. AS: So what is it about it? OF: I can't tell you why. Because I quite like strong tastes.

5:17

HG: 重口味 [Zhòng kǒuwèi]. OF: Yeah. I like strong 口味 [kǒuwèi].

5:22

JY: Strong 口味 [kǒuwèi]! HG: Yeah bút 重口味 [zhòng kǒuwèi]

5:24

can go a lot of ways. OF: Well, I don't know. Let's see what let's

5:28

see what happens. JY: Cheers.

5:30

HG: Cheers to a shot of whiskey. OF: Cheers.

5:35

OF: I mean, it's not bad. JY: It’s not bad right?

5:39

[OF coughs] JY: There it is, there it is.

5:42

OF: Oh dude. AS: Like a bong hit.

5:44

JY: Yeah exactly. OG: Oh, my mouth is on fire, guys

5:47

HG: Feels good though, doesn’t it? JY: That it wasn't bad though. I had kind

5:49

of a honey finish I liked. HG: Yeah, it's nice.

5:52

OF: How would that rank for you guys? You're the connoisseurs here.

5:55

JY: Well actually we're really not that knowledgable. AS: We're just the consumers.

6:00

OF: Beautiful. I feel slightly victimised. But thank you very much.

6:05

JY: Make your drink. You can do a gin and tonic.

6:08

OF: Thank you, I will. JY: We're gonna do some rum today.

6:11

AS: I always like it when we go back to the roots of Honest Drink

6:14

JY: What’s the roots? AS: Well the roots were, in the very beginning

6:19

we had a little bit of a ritual. JY: With the drink?

6:21

AS: With the drink, bringing it out, what we're going to drink, tasting it a little

6:26

bit. JY: Yeah. All right. Well, cheers.

6:31

HG: Good stuff. OF: I’m happy.

6:35

JY: Well Oscar, first of all, welcome to the show.

6:39

OF: Thank you. I'm absolutely honoured to be here.

6:42

JY: I'm so excited that you're here. You do amazing work with Mosaic of China.

6:48

OF: Well, thank you. JY: It’s a different vibe for me whenever

6:53

I can get another podcaster onto the show. We kind of started off at the same time, right?

6:58

OF: Right. JY: The last time we spoke, we kind of realised our podcasts, we started around the same time. OF: Yes. Around summer. 2019, right?

7:03

JY: Yeah. OF: Yeah. JY: So it's really great to have you here to share this journey with you.

7:08

OF: Totally. JY: And to get your take on it as well, because we're kind of from the same tribe as podcasters. And I really appreciate that.

7:13

OF: Oh I feel it, man. I am so excited. And maybe I speak for your listeners too. Because

7:18

just being here - in the exalted room where you do your podcast - it's like being in the

7:26

room with friends that I've known for a long time, which I think is the way that you've

7:30

been able to produce your podcast, which I'm supremely jealous of.

7:34

JY: The first time I met you, I feel like there was this mutual respect. Like, podcasts

7:39

in Shanghai, the bar was Mosaic of China. OF: Oh, dude.

7:43

JY: Yeah, that's the one I knew, I heard of first.

7:45

OF: Oh, OK. JY: And so I had the impression that you were

7:48

around for a really long time. So to me, it was like Mosaic of China was kind of like

7:52

the bar set here locally, in terms of podcasting. OF: Well, that's very kind. I think it's a

7:58

function of knowing how to make myself look bigger than I actually am. I think when I

8:03

was actually in business, that was part of what we did as well. Like, you are a small

8:07

minnow, but you learn the tricks of how to make yourself look like the big shark.

8:11

JY: You swim like a big shark. OF: You swim like a big shark. I mean, that's

8:14

part of my delusion, in fact. JY: Well is it kind of like the same philosophy

8:18

as ‘fake it until you make it’? OF: It is, sort of. But then you can't fake

8:21

it to the extent that there's there's nothing underneath, you're just some soufflé. There

8:25

has to be some substance. So you can't say something which you're not. But you can project

8:30

an image that's larger than your actual size, that’s what I'm going for. But again, I

8:36

don't think I do a good job of that. I think you guys are killing it. Like, I think you

8:39

have a lot more support than I have. And you were under the radar for me, because I spent

8:43

most of my time in my cave, just doing my project. And then when I found out about you

8:48

guys, I was like “OK, what the hell is this about? Let me listen to a few of these things”.

8:53

And I got into it, despite myself. Despite myself, I really got into your podcast. And

9:00

I’m not supposed to like your podcast. I think you and I talked about this when we

9:04

met. Like, on the surface, I do not like the idea of your podcast. It's an hour and a half

9:11

long, it's too **** long. There's three dudes talking about **** in a room drinking bloody

9:18

whiskey, I can't drink whiskey either. I'm like “I don't know why these guys are popular,

9:23

but I'll dip into a few episodes.” And I was hooked. So I know exactly the feeling

9:28

of your listeners. Because for me, just feeling the energy of your conversations, I felt the

9:33

realness there. And that was what, I think, I was jealous of. Because I think a lot about

9:38

my podcast, it's of course real. But it's a lot more measured. It's a lot more…

9:44

JY: Controlled. OF: Controlled. There is a very specific format,

9:47

which I like. I like having a format to play with. And then you having this freestyle,

9:54

no-holds-barred chat. It works. And actually it's at the heart of what podcasting should

10:00

be about. So when I listen to you, I feel like “Ah, that’s what I miss in my podcast”.

10:06

It's that energy that you bring every single time. And I'm not talking about myself, I'm

10:11

actually talking with the listener in mind. I'm sure people out there are nodding, going

10:14

"I wish I was in that room talking with the guys too”. Because I feel like, in every

10:19

conversation you've had, I would’ve liked to have been in that room saying “Oh, yeah,

10:22

yeah. And my point is this. My point is that.” So, yeah, I'm not sure what I do lends itself

10:27

to the same informal way that people outside can be part of the actual experience.

10:34

JY: But the most surprising thing after having met you was that you are such a bright personality.

10:43

Right? Like, you are so dynamic, there’s so much to you, that I honestly - like, I'm

10:49

going to tell you straight to your face - I feel like it doesn't come out in your podcast,

10:53

right? OF: Right. JY: And you give too much ground, I feel, to your guests.

10:57

OF: Yeah. JY: Well, because they're interesting people,

10:59

number one. But I feel like there’s so much you can add, just knowing you, meeting you

11:05

in person, and seeing this personality. I feel like there's so much charisma you can

11:10

still add to your show, that probably your listeners don't know unless they've met you.

11:13

OF: Right. I mean, I can't agree with that, because I don't know how to take that compliment.

11:18

But yeah, I mean, it is what I've been struggling with. And this is why I'm keen to talk to

11:23

you today, actually. Because I’m in the process now where I'm in the middle of two

11:28

seasons. So I'm producing my next season now. And I have this space to re-think “Well,

11:34

how do I approach the next season? In what way do I carry on doing? And in what way do

11:37

I slightly change things?" So yeah, this conversation’s happening at the right time? To what extent

11:42

should I inject more from myself? But the alternate thing is, to me it's an exercise

11:50

in humility, in some way. Because I do have quite a healthy ego. And that's not something

11:56

I particularly like putting out there. Which is why I like you guys, because you put all

12:01

your ‘warts and all’ into your podcast. Like, I know some of the worst things about

12:05

you, because of your podcast. AS: Oh ****. HG: That’s awesome. OF: But that's the beauty of it. That's the

12:09

vulnerability that I don't think I quite have the balls to put out, at the moment. Everything

12:16

I do is authentic. But, you know, we're all in some ways performative, right? You have

12:21

a work persona, you have a persona which you use with friends. Like, we all know how to

12:25

act differently in different situations. And so, for me, I did think very carefully about

12:30

what is the side of me that I will put out, and what I wouldn't. So that's what I think

12:37

I need to recalibrate, you know. And finding your podcast, getting into it, being reminded

12:42

about what podcasting is all about, and meeting you guys, all of that is part of the same

12:47

process. We can learn from each other. It's not about competing, like my podcast versus

12:52

your podcast. I love your podcast, and I'm proud of mine. It's not a zero sum game, right?

12:56

JY: Yeah. OF: Yeah. JY: And it was a very… You know, you were talking about your first reaction, when you

13:02

first came across us, before you started listening to us. And to be honest, it was a similar

13:07

reaction on my end. In terms of, like, there is that natural competitiveness, I guess.

13:14

Especially when we're in a space, and in a place, where It's very niche, right? And so

13:22

every other podcast that comes out, there’s a little bit of competitiveness. Like all

13:25

of a sudden, “Who's this guy? Who's this new kid on the block?”

13:29

OF: Yeah. JY: But then after having met you, I'm so

13:34

grateful for having met you, and that we can share this and we can work together. And we

13:38

can even help each other. Like, I honestly don't see you as a competition right now.

13:43

I see you as a resource. And a help. OF: Awesome, me too. Yeah.

13:46

JY: You know, and an inspiration in many ways. OF: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, you've already

13:51

heard, I'm not faking that myself. And yeah, I mean, I've met other podcasters, where I

13:55

thought I'd have the same conversation. We meet for a drink, and then the other side

14:00

just shuts down, becomes hostile. And I'm like “What the hell's the point of that?”

14:04

I just don't understand that. And it's not like I'm not competitive either, like I said.

14:08

JY: They don't want to share a trade secrets. OF: They don't want to share anything. Yeah.

14:12

And I'm like “Oh, which studio do you use?” “I'm not telling you.”

14:14

JY: Woah. I feel like we were sharing everything the first time we met.

14:17

OF: Totally. I mean, we’d had a couple of cocktails too. But no, I mean, that's the

14:21

spirit in which I reached out to you. Like, I had heard about your podcast, I reached

14:24

out to all three of you separately. And I've got to say that's where your characters all

14:30

came out. And I'm looking at you, Aric. Because now it's time to talk about Aric, because…

14:36

JY: Because, let's bring some context. When we first met, it was just me and Howie, this

14:40

is your first time actually meeting Aric. OF: It is. And it's a pleasure. And we've

14:44

just had a brief introduction for ten minutes. Out of the three of you, you were the most

14:48

guarded when I reached out to you. So I think it was Howie first I reached out to, it was

14:53

like “Hey Howie, I heard your podcast. I'm also a podcaster, we should meet up. You know,

14:56

we're doing the same thing. Great to know what you're doing.” Justin, it was a bit

15:00

later, but a similar story. And then Aric, I reached out to you. And you were funny,

15:05

because your reply… I wish I remembered it, but it was like, “Oh. Hi. Oh, you like

15:11

the podcast? What's your three favourite episodes from The Honest Drink?”

15:16

JY: That’s so him. OF: So I was like “OK.” No, I mean, I

15:20

appreciated it, because I could have just been blowing smoke up your ass. Like “What

15:23

does this guy want?” you know? And you were like “OK, you said that you like it? Prove

15:28

it”. I was like “OK, you are definitely yourself in the podcast.” Because that's

15:35

the side that I relate to most HB: Yeah, you were saying that you relate

15:37

to him the most. OF: Oh yeah. HB: You guys are kindred spirits. OF: I relate to you the most.

15:41

AS: A couple of funny things. No, I could talk all day as well. We've developed a certain

15:47

chemistry and we're also trying to calibrate as well. I think we have a great thing. Like,

15:53

we definitely really enjoy doing this. And we've had our ups and downs. And it's been

15:59

a wild ride for a couple of years. And our feelings about the show, about each other,

16:08

have evolved over time as well. I mean, really ups and downs. Like I mean, 180 degrees. Like,

16:12

the first batch of episodes, we didn't really know what we were getting into. And we were

16:19

trying to find our footing. Recently, as we start that same thought process - right, because

16:26

we're in about the same part of our journey - It’s like “OK, well, what do we like

16:30

about this? What do other people like about this? Where do we get our energy?” And spending

16:35

so much time together, doing something together, inevitably there's going to be much more friction.

16:40

OF: OK, you're doing this recalibration. So why are you doing this podcast? Have you figured

16:44

that out? AS: Yeah. Once people know you have a podcast,

16:49

and once you start doing a podcast, inevitably conversations with people in your community

16:54

will come up about the podcast. Because people will be like “Oh, you have a podcast? What's

16:58

it about?” OF: Wait, let me let me interrupt you right there. Are you at the point now where you can say “I'm a podcaster” or “I have

17:05

a podcast” without feeling like you're a complete wanker?

17:08

AS: Yeah, we have big egos. Like… OF: No but I mean, to meet somebody at a party,

17:13

and they say “Oh, I've got a podcast.” Like immediately, I would run away. Like “Oh,

17:16

you're that person". JY: Yeah. OF: That’s one wanker in every party, and I'm that wanker now.

17:22

AS: I appreciate your view on that. And I suppose this goes back to some of your earlier

17:28

very complimentary thoughts. It’s that the show is a metaphor for life, the show’s

17:33

a journey that shows a way that we're going to improve as human beings.

17:37

OF: Please don’t improve. I like your weaknesses. AS: There’s so many of them.

17:42

JY: I think that's what the thing is about the show, right?

17:44

OF: Yeah. JY: Like, it's therapeutic in the sense that

17:48

honesty is a very tough… It's tough. And it's scary. To be honest, we don't always

17:55

achieve that. We're not always successful with that, even on our show. But I think for

18:01

me, the driving force behind - at least, I'll speak for myself - behind doing this podcast

18:07

is the constant attempt to achieve that honesty. OF: Hmm.

18:11

JY: Whether we fail or succeed, hey. But at least we're attempting - and we're genuinely

18:18

attempting - to do that, no matter what kind of conversation we're having. And that to

18:23

me - combined with a genuine curiosity - is always kind of like my North Star. Whenever

18:32

I'm thinking like, “Oh, what is the show about for me?”

18:35

HG: I'm here for the alcohol. So I'm just here to drink. I don't know. But I mean, one

18:42

thing that I've always kept harping on about, and I always still bring up, is our backgrounds.

18:47

Of being American, but also Chinese, and the complexity of having both sides.

18:53

OF: Yeah. HG: So that, to me, is always the crux. Whenever

18:56

we have conversations, I'm always constantly trying to think from that perspective. What

18:59

makes us different from everybody else? I mean, you want to talk about complexity to

19:03

life, I’m sure there are thousands of podcasts out there to talk about the complexity of

19:07

life. You want to talk about curiosity and stuff like that, there are thousands of podcasts

19:11

that talk about curiosity. But I can't name many podcasts that come from our perspective,

19:17

combining all that. OF: Totally. Yeah, I think that's it. That's it, in a nutshell. I think it combines the content, and you guys's identity. Because

19:24

that’s the two circles of the Venn diagram which you inhabit. I mean, I'm also conscious

19:30

of that, because I'm a white dude in Asia. And I've got a podcast called Mosaic of China.

19:35

So I've got to be very careful with the identity side when I do my podcast. I try and keep

19:41

my guests to a minimal when it comes to other white guys, because it’s not a good look

19:46

to have two white guys talking about China. And that's another thing where actually you

19:50

have an inbuilt advantage, just with your identities. Where you can talk to anyone - you

19:55

can have a whole parade of white guys in - and you still are diverse because of you three.

20:02

Whereas I'm always conscious of that. JY: Interesting.

20:05

OF: Yeah, totally, totally. Part of my project is to have as diverse a slate of guests as

20:11

possible. JY: So do you have like a white guy quota?

20:15

In terms of, it’s kinda like a China film quota? OF: I basically do. I have a ‘Diversity Audit’, I call it. Because I can look at

20:22

the whole season. So I do seasons of 30 episodes. And it's on purpose, so that I can look at

20:30

that season, and I can say “OK, how many Chinese people do I have?” I try and get

20:35

usually 10 out of 30 to be mainland Chinese. And then out of the remaining 20, how do I

20:40

split that in terms of nationality? Then I take a look at it again, and I go “OK, that's

20:46

just the identity side. What about what it is that they do?” So I look and say “OK,

20:49

how many do I have from the world of business? How many from arts, how many from science,

20:53

how many from academia?” And I make sure that that diversity is pretty well looked

20:58

after. And then male/female, I have 50% male, 50% female, that's something which I will

21:03

not negotiate on. So if you look at my podcasts, it’s literally boy, girl, boy, girl, boy,

21:10

girl. And then it comes down to LGBT as well, I have LGBT representation. You wouldn't know

21:15

it to listen to it, but one in five of my guests are LGBT, or queer in some way. We

21:21

don't talk about it, it’s not an issue. JY: It's not the focus, right?

21:24

OF: It’s not the focus. But it's an underlying ethos in terms of what I'm doing, just to

21:30

kind of riff off what you just said about your podcast. it's about celebrating the diversity

21:36

of the human experience, as well as the fact that there is a universality. It's not about

21:42

actually saying “Oh, you're different”. It's about saying “You're different. And

21:46

we're all the same”. I can enjoy the differences, and I can poke at the differences. And that's

21:51

interesting. But ultimately, the human experience is exactly the same. And it doesn't have to

21:55

be Mosaic of China, it could be a Mosaic of Mozambique, and it would be the exact same

22:00

experience. Yeah. JY: I love that. So, your turn to answer the

22:03

question, Oscar. OF: You see, guys, I managed to actually interview

22:07

you guys on your show. JY: You flipped the tables for a moment.

22:09

OF: It’s all a deflection tactic, because I don't have the answer either.

22:14

JY: Yeah. OF: My situation is slightly different to

22:17

yours. I started my podcast after I'd sold my company. So I had a headhunting company

22:25

for 10 or 11 years, I managed to sell my entire share without being needed to stay with the

22:31

company beyond the sale. Which was quite rare, to actually be able to walk away. And it happened

22:38

at a time that I wasn't expecting it. And I never really had a Plan B. Like “OK, I've

22:43

sold my company now.” If I was a true entrepreneur, I would have set up another company. But I

22:50

realised “No, I don't want to do that. In fact, I'm quite allergic to the entire endeavour.”

22:55

So there was a bit of the "What do I want to do that makes me happy. But what also can

22:59

I do that keeps me relevant”. That was the ego side. And it's not just the ego, it's

23:07

also what I enjoy. Which is to be in the traffic of ideas. I think that's what I liked about

23:13

being a headhunter. And I specifically headhunted Heads of HR. So that always meant that I could

23:20

meet somebody from the tech sector one meeting, it could be pharmaceuticals the next meeting,

23:24

it could be artistic the next one. So I was always kept curious during my 10/11 years

23:30

as a headhunter. And I wanted to somehow have something that could emulate that without

23:35

the trappings of headhunting which I did not like. And there were quite a few at that stage,

23:39

I mean I was just burnt out. It's a long way of answering that question. You know, I don't

23:44

want it to become something which I don't have control of. You know, something where

23:49

it's a monster which then I have to just keep on feeding, somehow. And I know you guys go

23:53

through this, right? Like “Oh ****, I’ve got another episode coming up. We've got no

23:57

guest, we've got nothing planned, like what the hell do we do?” And suddenly is like

24:00

“Wait, this is supposed to be fun. Like, why am I putting pressure on myself?” So

24:04

I'm in that stage right this very moment, when you're interviewing me. This is probably

24:09

why it's on my mind. Because I've got a lot going on right now, which has started to stress

24:13

me out. And so now I'm thinking “What the hell am I doing? Why am I stressing myself

24:19

out?" I've got it into my head that I will do a big tour of China, and interview all

24:25

the people who are coming up in the next season who are outside of Shanghai. I want to interview

24:29

them all in person. JY: On the road? OF: On the road, face to face. JY: Cool.

24:34

OF: That gives me a different perspective of China. It's not meant to be ‘Mosaic of

24:37

Shanghai’. JY: Yeah. OF: And then… here’s where it gets really wonky. Because if you have two good ideas,

24:45

sometimes they can clash, and it becomes one big stupid **** idea. And that's kind of what's

24:51

happened now. Because I had another idea. So in my podcast, I have a second part of

24:56

every interview where I ask everyone the same ten questions. So there's a freestyle part

25:01

at the beginning. And then there's a formulaic part in the second half.

25:04

JY: Yeah, like the Rapid Round. OF: It’s the Rapid Round. I love it, because

25:08

you get a very different style in those two parts. And then you can compare how thirty

25:13

different people in the season answer the same question, from their different backgrounds,

25:16

different perspectives. And that's great to compare. I had the idea “Oh, you know what,

25:22

I could try and get sponsors for those ten questions.” So the question on “What's

25:27

your favourite destination in China,” I could have a travel agent sponsor that question

25:31

and say “Question 2 - brought to you by ‘blah, blah, blah’- is…” And so that

25:36

was a great idea. But now, I've got three days before I start the bloody interviews.

25:42

And so I was writing a proposal about sponsorship - which I've never done - and reaching out

25:48

to people saying “Hey, what about this for an idea?” With no proven track record, and

25:54

stressing myself out like an idiot. When I go to my first interview, what do I say? Do

25:58

I actually have to ask two different versions of the questions? One if I get this sponsor,

26:02

one if I don’t get this sponsor? What the hell am I gonna do? And I haven't worked it

26:05

out. And I'm just sat there going, “This is a weekend, and I'm stressed out sending

26:09

proposals out. Why am I doing that?” And a part of that is the vestigial business side

26:15

of me, which means I can't help but create something out of this project. And I'm thinking

26:21

“Why am I doing that? That's not why I started”. And yet I need it almost as a kind of ‘proof

26:27

of concept.’ That, if I can get more buy-in, then it proves the concept more to me. And

26:34

I'm thinking “Is that why I'm doing it?” JY: Does that go back to your ego? Is that

26:37

the ego speaking? OF: I think it is. But it's also… I’ll

26:40

totally you what it also is. It is because I'm proud of the content, and I need to find,

26:43

I need to find creative ways for people to amplify my content.

26:46

JY: Yes. OF: And that still is, I hope, what drives

26:49

me. You know, when I, when I lie in bed and question myself, like “Why am I doing it?”

26:52

I hope it's that latter explanation, and not so much the ego side.

26:56

JY: Yeah. OF: So, part of my psyche is to overcomplicate

27:02

things. JY: Sounds like… Don’t take this the wrong

27:05

way. It sounds like it's really tough being you, in the sense that there's this duality

27:13

to you. OF: Yes. JY: And they're conflicting, and they're constantly bumping up against each other. Because everything

27:19

- that you're saying that brings you stress and pressure now - was all brought on by yourself,

27:26

seeking them out. OF: Mm hmm. Totally.

27:28

JY: So it's this constant tug of war. OF: Oh, you are watching a mid-life crisis

27:34

before your eyes. JY: I was gonna bring that up.

27:36

OF: Oh, I’m a walking mid-life crisis. I mean, OK, let me tell you what this is. Because

27:42

when I talked to you before about when you meet somebody at a party, and are you confident

27:47

to say that you have a podcast without feeling that you are a wanker, right? Imagine if,

27:52

when you meet somebody at a party, and the answer is “I’m retired”. Like, that's

27:59

the stuff that I'm dealing with, because that actually is my status. I've sold my company,

28:04

and I'm basically not going to work again. I'm retired. And when you meet somebody at

28:10

a party, and they said they're retired, I mean, “Why are you here? You might as well

28:12

just be dead. What relevance do you have?” You know? So I think going to absolute irrelevant

28:20

obscurity is, to me, a scary chasm to look into. And I think that is the conflict, the

28:28

conflict is I have this amazing luxury of doing what I want. And at the same time, I

28:33

want to remain relevant. JY: And still have value to society.

28:35

OF: It’s the value to society, yeah. It's kind of “Why are we doing anything?” When

28:42

you are not defined by what you do, then actually, who are you?

28:45

JY: Yeah. OF: These are the big questions that you don't have time to ask yourself while you're busy working, none of you have really done that,

28:51

I’m sure. You are what you're doing, and you’re a podcaster on top, you have multiple

28:54

identities. HG: I can guarantee like, if the average person

28:57

would come up to you - who’s a worker, right? - he’ll come to you, like “Oh my god,

29:01

I'm so jealous of you. You're retired? I mean, you have no worries, right?”

29:05

OF: I mean, I have to accept that. I mean, of course, I've created all the bull**** myself.

29:09

Intrinsically, you’re absolutely right. And I have to keep on saying that. I have

29:14

to keep on saying that. But I'm a total idiot. And I won't take that as the gift that it

29:19

is. I will overcomplicate things, in a way that is exactly why I relate to Aric. Because

29:26

Aric is - out of the three of you - the least happy-go-lucky. You're the person who over-thinks,

29:31

over-questions. And that's why I really feel for you, because I'm sure if you were in my

29:36

position, you'd be just as gnarled up as I am.

29:38

HG: I feel like we should definitely bring that up, because Aric was not there when we

29:41

were together talking. And you did say that, like you felt this relationship with Aric.

29:48

And you brought up your Excel, and you were like “I wish I could show Aric the Excel

29:54

that I made”. OF: Oh, I should’ve brought it.

29:56

JY: Aric can pull out many Excels right now. OF: Oh, I would love to compete with you,

30:00

with the number of worksheets I have for the podcast. The workflows, and they're all colour-coded…

30:05

Oh my god, they're beautiful. JY: Aric’s getting competitive now, he's

30:08

like thinking “You don't have more than me, Oscar.” OF: Oh. AS: What I was thinking in my head, number

30:13

one is like, your inner voice is really loud. Just like mine is, just like all of us. But

30:20

your inner voice is really, really loud. It's telling you all these things. And sometimes

30:25

it's telling you some great things. like “Oh Oscar, you're great”. And then sometimes

30:29

your inner voice is telling you “You're not good enough. You're not doing enough,

30:33

what you're doing is not enough.” And this whole notion of being relevant, it's almost

30:40

like your inner voice is reflecting your own insecurities. Like, that other person actually

30:44

doesn't give a ****, potentially right? But you're like “Oh, I'm not relevant to myself,”

30:51

almost. It's not that other person, right? At what point did achieving things and being

30:57

relevant… When did that start mattering to you? Because I could pinpoint when it started

31:01

mattering to me. I mean, it was like five years old, or six years old. So at what point

31:05

did it matter to you? OF: The status of being a successful business

31:10

owner was quite important. For the reasons that Justin, you pointed out right at the

31:14

beginning of our conversation. Which is, I am a silly, ridiculous person.

31:21

JY: I didn't say all those things. OF: Well, basically, that's the way I'm projecting

31:25

my own views. JY: That’s the way you took it.

31:28

OF: I’m basically the person who will not take anything seriously. And so I enjoyed

31:33

the juxtaposition of being that person and then somebody later on saying “Oh, but he

31:37

owns his own business. And is successful.” And I quite enjoyed that status part, because

31:43

it offset my ridiculousness. The silliness, which I just can't help projecting.

31:48

AS: Why do you feel like you need that validation? Was there some point where you were you were

31:54

being silly, where it wasn't appropriate for the moment?

31:56

OF: Oh totally. AS: Why can't you just be silly?

31:59

OF: Because I think I'm good at subverting the expectation. So I quite like being silly

32:06

in a business context, where the expectation is that you're going to do a serious talk

32:10

here. Like you're a presenter at this conference, and you're going to make a joke about poo?

32:14

Everyone laughs, because it's subverting expectations. AS: Yeah. Were you the class clown?

32:17

OF: I wasn't the class clown. No, no, no, not at all.

32:19

JY: But you didn’t want to conform. Like, you're not for conformity.

32:23

OF: I'm quite a conformist. YJ: Are you? What a paradox.

32:27

OF: It's a total paradox. I'm a conformist trapped in a non-conformist body.

32:33

JY: It's like Jekyll and Hyde with you. HG: A walking contradiction.

32:37

OF: But that's why this project, it really it speaks to what I am. And there is a lot

32:42

of complexity behind it, absolutely. HG: Yeah, we were quite impressed when you

32:47

were explaining how you organise your shows and, and each season, you know, based off

32:54

of all the different tabs and etc, etc. I mean, that just shows that it's actually the

32:59

‘Mosaic of Oscar’, you know. It’s not the Mosaic of China.

33:02

JY: No. HG: It’s the Mosaic of Oscar. Oscar’s

33:04

got a lot going on here. OF: It’s very specifically curated, yes.

33:08

JY: Yeah. OF: And if there's any political aspect to

33:13

what I'm doing, it is that. I am actually quite passionate about showing people that

33:19

diversity is a good thing. JY: Yeah.

33:21

OF: You know what I mean? JY: Well, hence the name ‘Mosaic’, right?

33:24

It has to fit the DNA of what you're all about. OF: Do you know what, so ‘Mosaic’ wasn't

33:28

the first name that I came up with. JY: Oh well what was it, what was the first

33:31

name? OF: I had a really good idea, but it ended

33:33

up being racist. HG: Oh, you’ve got to share it now.

33:36

JY: Yeah, what’s this? OF: In America, you have a game called ‘Telephone’,

33:39

right? JY: Yeah. OF: The idea is that I whisper something into your ear.

33:43

JY: Yeah. OF: It gets passed on, and then the person

33:45

at the end will say something, and it will end up having been completely different to

33:50

what was first said, right? Everyone's nodding. JY: Yeah.

33:52

OF: In England, that is called ‘Chinese Whispers’.

33:54

HG: Oh. JY: Why is it called Chinese Whispers?

33:57

OF: Well, it comes back from, I think, when we were doing the Opium Wars. This is the

34:02

British, right? And it was in the 清 [Qīng] Empire, when the 清 [Qīng] Empire was in

34:05

disarray. And it was, like, how the mandarins of the Qing Empire would communicate, and

34:12

they would get garbled up, from one mandarin to the other mandarin. And so it was, you

34:17

know how when you're at war - or when you’re just generally at loggerheads - you would

34:22

attribute bad qualities… JY: You try to dehumanise the other people.

34:25

OF: Or just, if there's a bad thing, you would attribute it to your enemy, right?

34:28

AS: Right because if you were practising understanding of the other culture, and trying to understand

34:36

their perspective, then you probably wouldn't be in a war. The fact that you’re in a war

34:41

is because you think that these people are hopeless.

34:44

OF: Oh, no, it’s… I mean, look at Trump, ‘The China Virus’, it's the same, it's

34:51

been going on since Voltaire, this is something which is not new. And not just China, it's

34:55

the West and the East, we always use the other side as a foil as to what we either want to

35:00

do, or what you'd rather avoid. When you look at it from the bigger context, China versus

35:05

the West. I mean, in America, I think you have something called ‘a Chinese Fire Drill’?

35:10

JY: Oh, is it called the ‘Chinese Fire Drill?’ HG: The car, when you get out and run around.

35:14

OF: Exactly. It's the same racist trope, where “Oh, the Chinese are panicking, and going

35:18

round and round.” It's the same thing. Anyway. So that's a little bit of a detour. But that's

35:22

why in the end, I was like “Maybe I shouldn't call it 'Chinese Whispers’”.

35:26

JY: That’s funny. OF: Yeah. JY: Well, that saved you, you did the research. Imagine if you didn't do the research, and

35:31

today we're talking to Oscar from ‘Chinese Whispers’

35:33

HG: ‘Chinese Whispers’ with the Season 2, ‘Chinese Fire Drill’.

35:36

OF: God. AS: And then you get that post, like “The

35:39

Honest drink is so racist. They invite racist people on the show, etc, etc.”

35:43

OF: Yes, I sidestepped that one. Yeah. JY: Well Oscar, there are a few things I want

35:49

to unpack with you. You were talking before about like the midlife crisis. And this is…

35:54

You know, some of our earliest episodes revolved around this issue, because this is kind of

36:00

the genesis… HG: That was our catalyst. JY: So I just find that really fascinating. And I'm wondering, from your standpoint, would

36:09

you classify your crisis as a struggle with… You know, we talked about ego, but would it

36:16

be maybe down to your identity? Because you're talking about, like, who you are in these

36:21

dualities, these split sides you have. Would you boil all that down simply to a sense of

36:28

identity? OF: I mean, again, we're in a period where

36:33

I'm stressed out. I've stressed myself out. So I don't know how I would answer this question

36:37

in a different time. But right now, the timing is such that I'm stuck in China for two years.

36:44

And I wonder to what extent that is the underlying reason why I am really going crazy. Because

36:53

I've lived in Asia now for 18 years. And until now, it's always been a plus. Whatever my

37:01

baseline is, me living in Asia adds something to it. It's just always been an augmentation

37:07

of my ideas, the things that otherwise I wouldn't think about. I can look at Europe, I can look

37:13

at the States from an inside/outside perspective that I've always enjoyed. In a way that I

37:17

know that if I was still in my day job in London, I wouldn't really have the wherewithal

37:22

- I wouldn't have the tools - to even know how to question my own culture. Now that I

37:29

have not been able to set foot outside of China for one day in two years, for the first

37:36

time I feel like it's becoming a minus. It's a weird thing that I can't articulate. I've

37:41

just started to think of it in these terms recently. JY: Can you put your finger on it, in terms of what it might be?

37:46

OF: it's a pressure valve that needs to be released, for me. When I've lived in Asia,

37:52

we have thought of it as a right, almost, that every three or four months we can go

37:58

to a different place, reset, and then look forward to coming home to China. I would even

38:04

say it in those terms. Or ‘home’ to if I lived in Hong Kong, or when I was in Singapore,

38:08

or when I was in Japan. I’m coming home, and I'm looking forward to my home, and my

38:12

life in this country. I never, never use the word ‘expat’. There's no distinction between

38:18

me and another economic migrant, I am a just a migrant, I've chosen to be here for economic

38:23

reasons. This is my home. Without that pressure valve being released, the negativity of being

38:29

in any strong culture - and China is a strong culture, especially right now - is I think

38:35

building up. Which is, I think, the main reason why I'm not just skipping down the road, you

38:42

know, happy go lucky. And you've talked about this on the podcast, too, because we are in

38:45

the world of content production. And that puts me in a situation where I'm responsible

38:52

for putting things out into the world. And my mindset is not in the same place that it

38:57

was two years ago. So perhaps that's what's making me question, like “What am I doing?”

39:02

This is what a midlife crisis is. It's “What am I doing? Why am I doing it?” Right?

39:06

JY: Well, maybe you're just getting a little bit of cabin fever.

39:08

OF: Yeah, it's not just cabin fever. I mean, you're right, I don't want to talk over you.

39:13

It's more than just that, because it's tied in with what I'm doing day in, day out. Which

39:20

is presenting this case for understanding, cross-cultural communication, and fun. At

39:27

a time when perhaps I'm not entirely having the most fun, you know. That’s something

39:32

which I don't think I can change. I love being in China, and I love escaping China. And when

39:37

one of those outlets is not open to me, then I feel that this is the first time in 18 years

39:44

that I feel like I'm missing out on not being elsewhere in the world right now. So I'm just

39:49

at a crunch point. JY: Well, how has being a Brit - and having

39:54

the experiences, and spending the time you have in China, and seeing it as a home - how

40:02

has your perspective changed over time, you feel?

40:06

OF: So this is going back to identity. So you said “being a Brit”, I am a British

40:15

citizen, but my family were refugees from the Czech and Slovak Republics, or ‘Czechoslovakia’

40:21

as it was in ’68. We’re also Jewish, so that's part of my identity. I'm gay. All of

40:30

these parts of my identity, they mean that I never really feel like I'm an insider. I

40:35

mean, I've never really been ‘the Brit’. I've been the weird Brit with a name that

40:42

sounds weird. I mean, my name is not English. So I've never really felt like I've changed.

40:48

When I've been here, I've been able to skirt above mainstream society when it suits me,

40:55

or delve into some kind of mainstream society when it suits me. That's kind of how I've

41:00

lived my life anywhere in the world. Which I guess is why, you know, I am this ‘diversity

41:07

person’. I mean, it's just part of who I am. And at the same time, I’ve created this

41:13

identity of being ‘the China guy’, right? HG: Yeah.

41:16

JY: Yeah, I think the reason why I asked my question is because, previously on shows we've

41:22

discussed our identities as Asian Americans living here, sometimes feeling lost in between

41:30

both sides. But you being in Asia for 18 years - to generalise, being ‘a white guy', right?

41:39

- how do you… HG: Being a racist…

41:42

OF: Being a racist white guy, yeah. Come on, give me my full title.

41:49

JY: But just like finding that identity, being here for 18 years.

41:53

OF: Yeah. JY: Talking with, I'm sure a very diverse

41:56

group of family, friends from past and now. You know, where do you sit now? Because of

42:03

the recent climate? OF: Yeah. I mean, it's something where maybe

42:08

I have a different experience to you. JY: Yeah.

42:10

OF: You know, in one of my episodes - it was the finale of Season 02 - I talked with somebody

42:15

who had transitioned. We’re talking about gender. And that was a fascinating story,

42:23

in a way that made me think about my experience. Because the thing about people who have transitioned

42:29

- and it's a controversial topic, but - is the word ‘passing’. So if you can pass

42:34

as the gender which you feel, then that allows you to get through life without coming under

42:40

too much external pressure. That's what passing means. So if someone who has transitioned

42:46

- or is in the process of transitioning - if they ‘pass’ for the gender that they feel,

42:51

then they are in a privileged position. AS: Like Thomas Jefferson's children with

42:56

Sally Hemings. There were a couple of them that could ‘pass’ as white men.

42:59

OF: That's it. So there's a racial version of it, there’s a gender version of it, all

43:03

kinds of things manifested in different ways. AS: People will… You can, if you decide

43:07

to act that way, you can ‘pass’ and be considered by someone else as part of that

43:13

tribe. OF: Right. HG: It's legitimacy, that’s all it is. AS: Yeah.

43:16

OF: It is. And then all of this is to talk about you guys. In China, you can ‘pass’.

43:22

So you have a lot more flexibility. Because when you want to, you can ‘pass’ as a

43:26

Chinese person. Whereas I'm a walking advert for who I am. And I think that's a different

43:32

aspect that maybe - you know, because you are all American Asians - that's the diversity

43:36

aspect that you might lack in your perspectives of living in China. Now, it's not a terrible

43:42

experience to live in China as a white person. It’s fine. But you do understand the micro-aggressions.

43:49

You do understand that. I mean, let me put it this way. If I ever got involved in a situation

43:56

where the police were involved, there is no way I would imagine the police would be on

44:01

my side. Like “I'm in trouble here”. Which I think a Chinese person listening to that

44:08

would go “What do you mean? The police, they're here just to be safe. What are you

44:11

talking about? You're this aggressive white person, whatever.” In exactly the same way

44:16

that a black person in America would feel about the police. It gives you this perspective,

44:21

which you would never have had. And just the way that… OK, let's say it was a year ago

44:25

now. I was in 丽江 [Lìjiāng] airport. And it was post-COVID. And there was this

44:30

table set up. And they were pointing to everyone who did not look Chinese to come and sign

44:35

extra paperwork. I was with an Asian American, but I was the one who had to go and sign the

44:42

extra stuff. It's nothing. Like, I had to walk through 静安 [Jìng'ān] Park. I went

44:46

all the way through 静安 [Jìng'ān] Park before the guard came and dragged me back

44:50

all the way to the front. I was almost at the end, but he dragged me all the way to

44:53

the front. He was like “No, you have to get out of the park". Tiny things like that

44:59

affect your experience. Where it's not life threatening - in other parts of the world,

45:05

it could be life threatening - but I think that's where I would say to your answer about

45:10

my identity in China. It's absolutely fine, I have a privileged existence here. But I

45:15

just get the strong sense - no matter where I go in China - that China’s for the Chinese,

45:23

right now. I don't want to bash on China for this one aspect, and these tiny little things

45:28

that have happened in two years. Because I still love being in China. But yeah, it's

45:33

palpable. And especially without this escape, that's what starts to build up.

45:37

JY: Well it feels like it's intensifying, given the political climate.

45:40

OF: Totally, yeah. HG: Well, even yesterday we were discussing…

45:44

JY: Yeah, we had a whole conversation… HG: I mean, we don't have to go too deep about

45:47

it. But I’ll use myself as an example, as an Asian American holding a US passport. I'm

45:56

already feeling some of the… Like, when people find out that I am American, there's

46:02

already this little bit of like, you know “Hmm, should we work together?” You know

46:07

what I mean? Like, that kind of feeling, this underlying prejudice, almost. And even being

46:12

Chinese, looking ethnically Chinese. As a joke I was saying, like… Because on my bio

46:20

- I’m a director, I have to send out my bio, you know, to get jobs and stuff like

46:23

that - it clearly states in the first line, I'm born in America etc. etc. It's like “Should

46:30

I take that out?” You know what I mean? OF: Yeah.

46:33

HG: Maybe I should take it out. Because these days, the climate, it's a lot more sensitive.

46:38

You know, being an American. Especially as an American. Australian, American, UK.

46:42

OF: Yeah. AS: Yeah. OF: And this is a self-erasure. When people talk about erasure, that’s exactly what

46:48

you're doing. You’re literally erasing your identity, to be able to ‘pass’. It's not

46:52

a comfortable decision. But of course, there's no black and white. I think, in every interaction,

46:58

we are making very quick decisions based on “OK, to what extent do I reveal that part

47:03

of my identity or not,” right? JY: And this ties into like… You gave me

47:07

a new perspective, talking to you. And I never really realised it before. But when you were

47:13

talking about your identity, when I called you a Brit, and you're like “Well I’m

47:18

many other things including a Brit, but I'm Jewish, I'm gay. I'm a lot of things”. And

47:26

it struck me - and it was a revelation to me - because we've talked about the idea of

47:30

Third Culture, right. And from our personal experiences, you know, we've talked before

47:35

about this feeling of thinking or feeling like we are Third Culture kids…

47:38

OF: Yeah. JY: Because we're from the States, but we're

47:41

living in China, and we don't feel like we are fully 100% accepted in either place. And

47:47

that puts us in this kind of Third Culture space. Or we feel like maybe we're a little

47:52

lost, we don't know what home is necessarily. And when you were talking about your own identity,

48:00

I feel like that is just even more dynamic of a situation.

48:06

OF: Yeah. JY: Given all the things that you identify

48:09

with. And so how do you deal with this feeling of identity, a feeling of belonging, a feeling

48:16

of like what your tribe is, what your home is? All that comes into play, and I can’t

48:22

really imagine like how it feels for you. OF: You’re right. When I listened to your

48:27

podcast - going back to the whole podcast conversation - you say ‘Third Culture’,

48:32

I would call your perspective, quite binary. You are China versus America, which is great.

48:39

But when you say that, and then you you talk in terms of ‘West versus East’, that's

48:44

when I think, “Is this West versus East? This is just China/US”. I appreciate it

48:49

when you say “China versus US”, which are your two perspectives. But I've lived

48:54

in four different places in Asia. Everything is nuanced, right?

48:58

JY: Yeah. OF: So it is a really weird place to be. In

49:04

one way it's a gift, because I can look at things from 13 different angles. In a way

49:08

that that's my superpower, actually. And of course, the same superpower is a big weakness.

49:15

Because, yeah, I can never relate to people in a way that allows me to say “Look, I

49:19

am your people, so listen to me. This is what we should all be thinking.” Because no one

49:24

really relates in the same way. I'm a European, from Eastern Europe and the UK. I've lived

49:31

in Germany. I married an American, he's California. And we met in Asia. It means that I fit everywhere,

49:38

and I fit nowhere. HG: Well that’s beautiful, though, to me.

49:42

I feel like that that should be the way we should be moving towards, as a society.

49:46

OF: Kind of. But what I was saying was you fit everywhere, but you fit nowhere at the

49:51

same time. That's the dichotomy. Again, it's this duality.

49:55

HG: Yeah. AS: Well, I appreciate your point there. You

49:59

know, from our perspective - and it's, it's just a dialogue that’s really important

50:03

- because like, you know, then we could take this judgmental view over the years that “Oh

50:07

Caucasian people can get away with anything in China.” Right? “And they have certain

50:11

privileges,” and stuff like that. OF: Which is generally true, yeah.

50:14

AS: It’s true. But it's important for us to get your perspective. Like, there's always

50:16

a microscope in some ways on you, because visually you're identifiable. Then I think

50:22

the other point is that we're navigating this multicultural world, right? And there's more

50:29

and more connectivity. You used to build a road from A to B, from B to C, and eventually

50:34

you could get from A to C. And it's very very linear, point A to point B. But with connectivity

50:38

now, you can literally draw a line from any point to any other point. And so where does

50:43

the responsibility lie? So we're navigating this very complex world. And sometimes we're

50:49

going to be the majority, right? We're going to have the force of the majority, we're going

50:54

to be in the in-group in the in-tribe. And we don't have to think about things, because

50:59

we can just blend in with the masses. And sometimes we're going to be part of the minority,

51:04

and we're going to face certain types of headwinds. And almost everyone experiences that, even

51:09

if you're a white Caucasian WASP in the US, like, they have inner voices too. And so everyone

51:16

is going to paint themselves as a victim sometimes. And so I think the question is “OK, how

51:23

do we have the dialogue?” Because what I was thinking earlier was that Justin, myself,

51:27

and Howie we have the benefit of each other, we can talk through these things. And we use

51:33

the show as self-therapy and self-reflection. OF: Yeah.

51:35

AS: And we use the show as a collective identity, because we're not alone. And in a way you're

51:41

alone. I think it's like, how do we create this positive, supportive, open framework?

51:46

Because it's really important to know that you're not alone. So I think it's like, then

51:51

how do we look forward, right? How do we create a support network and plan so that we can

51:58

be mentally healthy and happy about ourselves? OF: That's what I think we're both doing with

52:03

our projects, it is about putting that message out there. And you do have the advantage of

52:07

having the three of you, and mine is much more solitary. But when I meet every guest,

52:13

I mean, I do get that energy. It's just not as intimate as what you can do over the course

52:17

of two years, day-in day-out meeting each other. I think the idea of connectivity is

52:24

a tricky one, because that was the ideal of what the internet would be, right? We would

52:28

all be connected. And then it would be this marketplace of ideas where the best ideas

52:32

would come out. But the problem with connectivity is that we connect with what we already feel

52:37

is correct. And then we go into echo chambers, and we only are connecting with the ones who

52:43

agree with our own ideas. So you know, that word is a bit triggering, because it's not

52:48

working, you know. It’s what it's what the world should have been.

52:51

AS: And we can send garbage down the network with ease now, which is a problem.

52:55

OF: That's the problem. So all we can do, yes… I mean, the way forward is to do what

53:00

we're doing, you know, and to have open dialogues and to put out stuff that helps to bridge

53:06

the misunderstandings that are from point A to Z. Let's cure this, guys, the four of

53:11

us. OK, let's hold hands. HG: Hold hands. Sing a song.

53:14

OF: We’re gonna solve this, we're gonna solve this.

53:16

AS: Can I end with a quote? JY: Please do.

53:18

AS: Alright. The quote I wanted to share was from Thomas Jefferson, and he just said “How

53:22

much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened?”

53:28

JY: Yeah, it's kind of almost similar to the idea of, nine out of ten of your concerns

53:34

are unfounded. AS: Exactly. JY: Right. Yeah, and one final point I do want to stress that maybe was lost in this

53:44

conversation, was that we like to be critical of a lot of different places, wherever we

53:49

are. But at the same time, like, my pet peeve is like, where we are, we're living off of

53:57

the privileges of that place in that culture. OF: Yeah, I agree.

54:01

JY: I want to be balanced to our approach, and looking and hearing from all different

54:07

perspectives, especially including yours Oscar. OF: You're right. You're both right, yeah.

54:12

It's something where it's nice to hear you say it and articulate it, because it's something

54:15

which you're absolutely right. We are privileged to be here in this point of time. It's a nice

54:20

place to end this conversation. And I do agree with you.

54:23

AS: I mean, this whole thing with pessimism, right? Like, I think internally, I hold a

54:28

lot of pessimism, my inner voice. You know, I have a very loud inner voice that's full

54:33

of pessimism. So when I hear pessimism outside of me, I immediately recognise it. And my

54:40

optimistic voice fights it. And so while I'm poor at fighting my inner voice and pessimism

54:46

inside, I'm a crusader against any kind of pessimism that happens outside. And so I think

54:52

you'll find that some of the most pessimistic people, they come across really optimistic,

54:56

because they're trying to fight that fight. OF: I agree. And this is kind of the dynamic

55:00

that I love about your podcast, because I wouldn't have the forum to bring out this

55:04

pessimism. Like, it's not something which I talk about.

55:07

JY: Yeah. OF: This is why I like your podcast, and I

55:09

believe others do too. Because it is a forum that you can bring out stuff that I would

55:13

never say on my own podcast. You know, and I wouldn't say this publicly elsewhere. And

55:18

that's thanks to you guys. So I want to say once again, thank you for what you do. Continue

55:22

with your optimistic podcast. I do appreciate it.

55:24

HG: Thank you. JY: Thank you Oscar. It was a pleasure speaking

55:27

to you, sharing with you. Good luck on everything. Where can people find you, Oscar?

55:31

OF: So the podcast is everywhere. You can find the website, the website actually has

55:36

transcripts. AS: Wow. OF: So if you're not good at English, you can follow.

55:39

HG: That is great. I know a lot of our listeners like that.

55:41

OF: It's hard to do. It takes time. JY: You also have additional content, and

55:46

there's a lot of different stuff. OF: Yes, so I've tried to be creative in terms

55:49

of giving the most loyal people who listen some extra content, so you can go on something

55:55

called 爱发电 [Àifādiàn], where there's a longer version of every episode.

56:00

JY: Yes. OF: 10 to 15 minutes longer. HG: That’s great. JY: That's awesome. Once again, thanks, Oscar.

56:04

It was a pleasure. HG: Cheers.

56:06

OF: Cheers. JY: Alright, peace.

56:10

AS: Oh, wait, do we say who we are. OF: No but you should.

56:14

HG: We always do that. OF: Go on, do it do it.

56:17

HG: Why are you breaking tradition. Justin? OF: We don’t always have to do that.

56:20

OF: Ritual. Ritual is important to these guys. JY: That was Oscar. I’m Justin.

56:24

AS: I'm pretty optimistic today. HG: And I am neutral today.

56:27

JY: Peace. OF: I didn't know the darkness would come

56:30

out so badly. Oh my God. I think it’s the gin.