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[Trailer] OF: The secret's out,

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we do not have a very exciting life. DN: Invite us out, people!

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[Intro] OF: Welcome to

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Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are

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making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.

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Happy new year! We're in that strange limbo period between New Year and Chinese New Year,

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where nothing really gets started properly in this part of the world.

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But seeing as it's been so many weeks since the last episode - which was Episode 15 with

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Dajiang - I figured I should release something new this week. In the past I've always invited another

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China-based podcaster to interview me for these special mid-season bonus episodes. But this time,

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I've invited none other than Denny Newell to join me behind the mic.

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You hear me say his name at the end of every single episode, so now you finally get to hear

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his voice. And it's about time, seeing as it was Denny who actually came up with the name 'Mosaic'

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when we were brainstorming ideas behind this podcast. I have so much more to thank Denny for

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all his help behind the scenes of this project, and you'll hear some of that coming right up.

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I'll be back again at the end of the episode with another little announcement. But in the meantime,

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I hope you enjoy the spectacle that is me and Denny trying to have a normal conversation.

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[Main] OF:

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Hello Denny. DN: Hello Oscar.

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OF: I’ve decided that for this season's bonus episode, it's going to be a

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conversation between you and me. You being my chief image designer on Mosaic of China.

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You also happen to be my partner and husband. DN: Oh yeah! I’m that too,

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yes. I do all of those things. OF: I really don't know how this

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is going to go. Because we've been together now for 10 years, which means that we don't

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really communicate in full sentences at all. It's more like grunts and other animal noises.

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So let's see what kind of conversation we're gonna have. It's gonna be as much a surprise

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for us as it's gonna be for anyone listening. DN: Yeah, I think it will be. I don't know how

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this is going to go. It’s unrehearsed, everybody. OF: I should explain that this is happening

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because of a suggestion by Max Cassidy. Hello, Max.

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DN: Hello Max. Thank you… I think? OF: We were talking about what he

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would want to hear, and he said “Oh, you definitely have to have a chat with Denny

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at some point.” Let me, I guess first of all, introduce you to anyone listening.

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DN: All right. OF: You are my

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entourage. You're my entourage of one. You're my key supporter in this whole endeavour.

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I look to you, because you are someone who I see as possibly the most capable person that I know.

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You're just a fully functional human being. It's a revelation to me that there are people walking the

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planet like you, who actually can just do things. You know, for me, I can be like that, but only in

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short stints. I have phases where things are working well, and I'm in full flow. But then I

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have phases where the wheels completely come off, and everything starts piling up around me. So just

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to be around someone like you who is consistent, and who is reliable, it’s like living with a god.

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DN: Oh wow! OF: I’m awestruck every single day. I

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want to say a big thank you for just being there as a symbol of how people just get **** done.

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DN: Oh well thank you. I don't know that I live up to all of

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those accolades, but I'll take them. Thank you. OF: Well, apart from being the designer of the

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logos of Mosaic of China… DN: Yes. OD: …What is your day job? DN: I am Director of Creative and Production

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for Shanghai Disney Resort Entertainment. So my team takes care of all the live entertainment

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that happens at Shanghai Disney Resort: the parades, the shows, all the seasonal events,

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all the decor. So yeah, it's a pretty fun job. OF: And you are the reason we are here. You

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got the job here in Disney Shanghai. We met in Hong Kong when you were at the Hong Kong park.

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DN: Yes, I was Creative Director there for Entertainment, and got the call to

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apply - and then ended up getting the job - to move to that same role here in Shanghai.

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And I have since been promoted to this new role. OF: Thanks to you, we had a great guest in Season

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01, which was Philippe Gas. DN: Yes. OF: He, at the time, was the President of the Shanghai Disney Resort. And getting him

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was one of the things that really spurred the entire project along. Because when I

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was first asking people to be a part of the project back then - when it didn't exist,

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and they didn't quite know what they were saying “Yes” to - the fact that Philippe was on board so

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soon, thanks to your introduction, really helped kickstart the entire project. So that's a bit of

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a secret weapon that I had there, thanks to you. DN: Well, you know Philippe because of me. But it

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was your idea - your plan for the whole podcast - that sold him on wanting to be a part of it.

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So I can't take credit for that, I think the podcast - and you - should take credit for that.

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OF: OK, well we have to stop being so sickeningly nice to each other.

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Before we stop, I said that you are capable, but I think it's the creative side that obviously has

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inspired me. You know, when you and I met, I was much more in a business realm. I was very much in

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that zone. Being with you has opened up my eyes to how you can harness your own creativity, and do it

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in a positive way. That's the thing about you, you are a positive person. It's something which me,

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as a Brit, I am predisposed to be cynical about. You are the bright and shiny Californian, and I am

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the twisted depressive Brit in the relationship. But it's something where I see the phrase ‘Putting

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good energy out there’. And I see the way that what you do engenders positivity in other people.

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I've only learned a fraction of that, but I will continue trying. Because it's something where I

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used to see it as something which was a bit fake. And you know, that kind of toxic positivity now

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that people talk about. DN: Right. OF: But for you, it's entirely genuine. So if I am at all positive these days,

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it's basically thanks to you. DN: That’s not the truth. No, that's

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not true at all. But thank you. OK, let's turn the tables, we’re supposed to be talking about you.

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So I'll introduce you, Oscar, how about that? OF: Well, maybe what you can introduce is what

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you see in terms of how I work on this project. What do you observe?

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DN: Right. Well I know that when you first came up with the idea, it was really a way to continue

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meeting interesting people. And I was proud of that. You came up with an idea to keep yourself

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busy, and it's really become a big part of our lives. And has expanded not only your network,

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but my network, and our network as a couple. You know, we've talked about friends coming

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and going - especially lately in Shanghai - and the few friends that we still have in Shanghai,

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are mostly because of Mosaic of China. OF: Yeah.

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DN: It's really kept us afloat, and kept us as sane as we can be during some difficult times.

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OF: Yeah. Yeah, I do agree with that. I think part of my worry in coming up to Shanghai - when

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I first moved up here to be with you - was “How am I going to develop an identity for

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myself?” You know, I didn’t just want to want to latch on to all of your friends. So yeah,

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it is interesting how it has become this vehicle for me to keep in the traffic of new people. And

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it's not like everyone who I interview becomes our friend. And it's not like every friend we have has

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come from the show. DN: Right. OF: But it's just something which makes sure that both of us keep our eyes outwardly focused,

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and not too inwardly focused. Which has been very easy to do during this last year, especially.

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DN: Definitely, I do think it kept us sane in that regard, and helped us expand our

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friends circle beyond where we probably would have been without it. Definitely.

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OF: Yeah. DN: Well the other

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thing we wanted to talk about is, you and I just got back from our first trip out of the Chinese

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mainland in almost three years. Back to the States for me, and we saw some of your family as well.

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So how would you describe your feelings about that trip? Like,

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what does it mean to you, what was it like? OF: I mean, at the beginning it was like "What

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the hell?” When we left, it was when things were very unstable down our street. And so we figured

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“Ach you know what, we've waited three years for this trip. Let's not leave it to any chance, let’s

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just bring the trip forward.” And we were out. DN: Right.

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OF: Because things change so quickly. I mean, that probably is my answer to you.

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The feeling I get from that trip now is, it's a reminder about how fast things change in China.

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DN: Right. OF: Because two or three weeks into our month-long

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trip, people were asking us about what it's like on the ground in China. And by that time,

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we basically had to say “Well, we don’t know!” DN: Right.

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OF: Because we left China, and it was still ‘zero-COVID’. And as we've been away,

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it's suddenly all changed. And we're now in a situation where everything is upside-down again.

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DN: Uh-huh. OF: The trip itself was, of course,

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great. We overindulge, we basically overdid it. DN: Yeah.

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OF: For four weeks. Now we're on a strict diet, trying to get back into our routines.

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Now that we're back, it makes me think about: what is the theme of last year? Because it does

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feel like the close of the year is a watershed moment in China. In the past, this bonus episode

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has always had a title. DN: Uh-huh. OF: In Season 01, it was ‘Community’. That was where I was thinking:

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Is Mosaic of China a community? And then last season, it was more about ‘Connectivity’.

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DN: Right. OF: It’s not necessarily a community, but we’re

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all ‘connected’ in some way. When I was thinking about what word would encapsulate our experience

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from this first half of Season 03, I think the word that comes to mind is ‘Codependency’.

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DN: Yes. OF: That’s what it's been like personally,

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where - in our hardest moments - you were focused on certain things that you could do to help,

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I was focused on other things, and there was this symbiotic relationship which you can call

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‘codependency’. DN: Right. OF: If you look at the word itself, it's not a good thing. Because we should really be more

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independent. But we were thrust into this kind of codependency. And if I expand that,

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that's kind of how it has felt with this rump of international people who are left

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from these times here in China. We have been through a lot these last 2.5-3 years. And I

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do feel that we have this kind of codependency together. Where we're reliant on each other.

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DN: And we made it through together. OF: We made it through together;

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we all have similar stories. That in itself is kind of nice. And now that

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things are going to open up, it's completely perverse but part of me is going to miss that.

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DN: Yes. OF: It is bizarre, because we've been

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wanting China to open up, it's been the dream. And at the same time now we're going to get people

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coming in? To ‘our China’? It's such a weird feeling, which I hope is just in this very moment.

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DN: I think it is. OF: Right? When people do start coming,

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and then there is more of this intermingling of visitors and locals, then it'll be like "Oh,

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no this is a joyous thing.” But right now I think we are so institutionalised in this codependency.

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DN: Mmm. OF: That’s why I think this word is the

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title of this bonus episode, it’s the feeling that we have all been through. And it is not a good

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thing. There are things that we can reflect on, in a positive way. But opening up is a good thing.

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DN: Yes. OF: Well maybe I should

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just bounce that question right back to you. You know, you asked me at the beginning of this,

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how would I describe my feelings about this month-long trip we took? What about you?

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DN: Well I think we hadn't been able to leave for so long beforehand,

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we really wanted to build up a time where we missed coming back to Shanghai to our home.

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OF: Yeah. DN: And I do think we did that. I think

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we were ready. And we really wanted to get back to our home and our life, and my job here. We were

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just… we were ready. And that was a good feeling. OF: Yeah.

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DN: To miss Shanghai. And to want to come back to it. And - it’ll be the ‘new norm’, but - coming

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back to a Shanghai that's open again, as it was before all of the issues we had coming into it.

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OF: Yeah. Totally. You're absolutely right, yeah. And you know, without leaving you can't get that

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feeling. That's the point, right? I mean, you talked about coming back to our routines,

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that's a good segue for me to ask you about your input into this project. How would you describe

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how you and I work together on Mosaic of China? DN: Well, I guess I'm your graphic designer,

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you're my boss. OF: Heh heh. DN: I have to please you. But I do think part of the reason I liked the name ‘Mosaic’ is it offered

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something visual to latch onto, and we landed on these hexagon tiles as the theme. It's obviously

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evolved, we now have a new cartoonish picture of you that I did. You know, it's an outlet for me.

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I am definitely not a professional designer, but I do dabble in it. And it's forced me to hone my

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skills in that. I've actually taken some online classes to get a little better. So I enjoy it.

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It gives me something to do while I'm sitting on the couch watching TV with you over the weekend.

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OF: Yes, the secret's out, we do not have a very exciting life.

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DN: Invite us out, people! OF: Yes!

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DN: We’ll come out… maybe. OF: We will come out, sometimes.

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I should say, you know, we didn't really explain your job at Disney that well. Your background,

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in terms of creativity, is dance. DN: Yes. Yeah, I started as a dancer

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at Disney many, many, many years ago. And my background is not in design or art.

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It was always a hobby. And now I get to kind of stretch that ‘talent’, I guess.

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OF: Oooh! DN: Oh I said “talent!” Eurgh. But let's turn the table back to you. Can you describe to me a little bit how the process

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for Mosaic of China has changed coming into the third season, and going onto the fourth season?

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OF: The video part is entirely new. DN: And the transcripts.

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OF: Well the transcripts are not new, the transcripts I started last season already. But…

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DN: Putting them on the video though… OF: Exactly. I mean, this is the thing with the

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videos, I had all the elements already. Because I had all of the images that I got from the guest,

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I had a video platform, and I had the transcript. So all I had to do was to put them all together,

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which is what I've done. It's a new skillset to make videos rather than just the audio,

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so that's been fun for me. And it has also allowed me to edit down those videos to make these little

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short video versions of each episode, which are just like four or five minutes long. And

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people who perhaps haven't heard the entire episode will maybe watch this mini version of

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the podcast. And I've attracted more people to the main podcast through that process,

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which I didn't realise that I was going to do. So I'm just adding more and more onto this podcast.

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It really is now a full-time job. DN: Right.

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OF: Which is good in a way, because that's why I started this project. It was to keep

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me away from mischief. But when do I stop? So the process has evolved,

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I get more and more obsessive, more and more into it. Is that necessarily a good thing?

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I don't know. But it's still fun for now. DN: As long as it's fun. And you seem to get

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faster at doing it. But you do keep adding more. And with that in mind, what’s coming up next?

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OF: I've been on a student visa all this time, which has been great. And

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a shout-out to a past guest, Chang Chihyun: he was my professor. I graduated now with

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my Masters of Modern Chinese Studies. With graduation, I basically had to find a job.

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DN: Yay! OF: So the biggest change is,

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now I'm on a work visa. I'm working with a friend of mine 刘健 [Liú Jiàn] in his company ‘Hand in

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Hand.’ So now that will be part of my activities here in China, which is very different to before.

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Also the month away has spurred me into wanting more of that. You and I met in Hong

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Kong. At that time I had my own company, and I was jet-setting around the world,

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and then you and I would do trips together, and then I would go for my own trips. I really want

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to go back into that lifestyle again, and maybe sniff around for some new projects.

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Not at the expense of Mosaic of China. But I do want to expand back into my other identities.

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DN: Right. You're in Asia 20 years or so, right? OF: Yeah, coming up to 20 years. Places like

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Singapore, where I was six years. Or Japan, where I first lived in Asia, all those years

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ago. What that means is, nothing will change with Mosaic of China, in terms of the content. What I

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think will change will be the release schedule. Because that's what keeps me so busy: editing

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down many hours of audio; trying to get all of the photos together; put them into videos; I'm writing

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up transcripts… If I was to carry on releasing episodes every week, then I would be stuck behind

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my desk. And now that borders have been reopened… DN: … And you have a job…

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OF: … And I have a job, that's the last thing I want to do. Or can do, honestly speaking.

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DN: Right. OF: Whether it means I release the

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episodes every other week, whether it's a kind of three-weeks-on/one-week-off, I don't know.

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It's also the case that everyone else is going to be completely busy with this new life as well.

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And they're not going to have time to listen every week either. So hopefully it will be in

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line with ‘China in 2023’. You know, you and I are looking at each other going “I don't know”.

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DN: Right. OF: You don't know how many work trips you’re

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gonna get, you don't know to what extent your role is going to change. It's the same story with me.

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What I do know is that this project means a lot to me. And I can't wait to release the second half of

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Season 03. There are 15 amazing episodes coming up. I haven't yet started editing any of them,

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so I don't know when I'm going to start to release them. But release them I will. I will

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continue to work with you. And I look forward to also being part of the wider community of

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listeners here in China. Now that we can meet freely, I am looking forward to the next event

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in Shanghai and hopefully doing more across China as well. Here’s looking forward to what I hope

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will be a great year ahead. DN: Thank you, Oscar.

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[Outro] OF:

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Thanks very much again to Denny for giving up some of the time on Sunday which he could

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otherwise have spent sitting next to me on the couch watching TV. And thanks to you of course

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once again for listening. I try not to look too often at the statistics behind who is listening,

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and on what platform. But seeing as it was the beginning of the year, I tallied everything up

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and I’m super proud to announce that we’ve just surpassed 250,000 downloads. Around

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60% of that number now comes from people listening to the version uploaded in China,

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around 30% listen to the international version, and the remaining 10% is shared between the

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PREMIUM versions of the show and the various video versions that I mentioned in my chat with Denny.

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Altogether that’s a quarter of a million downloads over the three-year lifespan of this project.

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It was around the midway point of Season 01 when life in China suddenly and unexpectedly changed

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with the outbreak of COVID-19. So there’s a kind of neat symmetry that it’s at the

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midway point of Season 03 that we’re seeing China suddenly and unexpectedly change back again. But

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one thing that won’t change is my gratitude to you for being there all the way through.

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I’ll be taking some more time off over Chinese New Year, so I wish you all 新年快乐 [xīnnián kuàilè]

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and 恭喜发财 [gōngxǐ fācái], and I’ll see you again here for the second half of Season 03.

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[Easter Egg] OF:

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Was that OK with you? DN: Well I guess we'll find

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out in the edit. OF: Yep.