0:00

[Trailer] EO: I… I'll

0:04

say American Pie. “My, my, Miss American Pie OF: Eric, it's beautiful, what’s wrong with you?

0:13

EO: I mean, I'll be on that front line podcasting, but not singing.

0:16

[Intro] OF: Welcome to

0:21

Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. When all of

0:25

their stories are pieced together, they form a Mosaic of China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.

0:30

Firstly, in case you haven’t already, please do join the groups on Facebook at @mosaicofchina and

0:34

Instagram at @mosaicofchina_. And for WeChat, please send me a note directly

0:41

on my ID: mosaicofchina and I’ll you to that group myself. Thanks to everyone who

0:47

commented on all the photos that I posted from last week’s interview with Maple. The

0:51

photo of the beautiful lake in Tibet seems to have got the most attention. And I did

0:56

hear from many of you that I forgot to explain 相声 [Xiàngsheng] in my outro. Sorry about that,

1:00

I totally missed it out. Maple brought it up, it’s sometimes translated as ‘crosstalk’,

1:05

in which usually two performers act out a dialogue between them, and it’s full of

1:10

comedic puns in Chinese. It reminds me a little bit of 落語 [rakugo] in Japanese. Because somehow

1:17

I always need to talk about Japan in this China podcast. Anyway, both those art forms

1:21

are similar to Western stand-up comedy, but as Maple pointed out, they’re not personal, they’re

1:27

heavily scripted and rehearsed, and most of the comedy just comes from wordplay, nothing else.

1:32

Anyway, today’s episode is with Eric Olander. Eric has been a journalist in China off and on

1:38

since 1989. His most recent incarnation has been with the China Africa Project,

1:44

which he explains early in the podcast. But you’ll quite quickly hear afterwards that his knowledge

1:49

goes way beyond this niche area. He talks very eloquently about journalism issues in general,

1:55

such as bias, censorship, his relationship with the public online, and the relationship between

2:01

officials and the online media, including the way in which China’s soft power is being

2:06

felt in places like Africa and beyond. Since Eric has so many interesting things to say,

2:12

it was very difficult to keep the interview short. So apologies for going a bit long on

2:17

this episode, I hope you’ll agree that it was worth the few extra minutes.

2:19

[Part 1] OF: Well, thank you so much,

2:23

Eric. I know it's a busy time, so I appreciate your time today. Eric is the co-founder of the

2:28

China Africa project. And you've been in China now, on and off, for how many years?

2:33

EO: Since 1989. I started studying Chinese in 1985, long before most of your audience was even

2:41

born. Long before Chinese was cool and hip. You know, there were no skinny white people walking

2:48

through the French Concession back when I was here the first time. It was rough and tumble,

2:52

there's no doubt about it. And so for me, the journey from the 1980s till today has been just…

2:59

You know, I feel like it's been an honour and a privilege for me to have the opportunity of

3:03

seeing this. This journey that they've gone on, from being one of the poorest countries

3:08

in the world in the 80s, to now being the second largest economy in the world, is remarkable. And

3:13

when you you see that trajectory… I walk around Shanghai and Beijing just mouth agape all the

3:20

time going “I remember when this was nothing". OF: Well, before we go too far down that road,

3:25

what is the object that you've bought today? EO: So my object is my moleskin book.

3:30

OF: Right. EO: It’s one of those notebooks. And OK,

3:33

it doesn't have to be a branded book. But it's a notepad. And for me as a recovering

3:38

journalist and still a journalist, but also as someone who is hopelessly neurotic with lists,

3:43

it's how I organise and structure my life, it's how I keep things going forwards, how I keep my

3:48

head clear. I find that even in this digital world - and I'm extraordinarily digitally oriented,

3:54

I am connected to everything - being analogue is to me far more effective in many ways,

4:00

in terms of getting ideas out of my brain and into the real world. They go on paper first,

4:07

oftentimes. And lists and things like that. So my object is that notebook,

4:12

and you will almost never see me without it. OF: And this is what iteration of this book,

4:17

how many of these books do you have at home now? EO: Hundreds now. Because this is something that I

4:21

actually started way back as a teenager, making my to-do lists for the next day before I go to bed.

4:27

That was a habit I picked up. It was a habit that was not taught. I just started doing it.

4:33

OF: And there's something nice about actually physically crossing it out

4:37

with your pen when you've done it, right? EO: Yes, exactly. And there's something

4:40

therapeutic about writing it out. Now I have Evernote online,

4:43

and I do a lot of that task and list based stuff on Evernote. But it's different than

4:47

writing with a pen. And I don't use just normal pens. I use fountain pens. I mean,

4:52

really old school. But those cheap fountain pens that European students use in school.

4:57

But it is part of this kind of aesthetic of being connected to the old and the new, the analogue in

5:02

the digital. And I think both are important. OF: Well, that's great. And tell me,

5:06

how does this pad then relate to what you do, on a day to day basis today?

5:10

EO: So now, you've caught me at a really exciting time in my life, because I'm finishing up here in

5:15

China with WPP advertising where I was working. I mean really, when you work here in advertising

5:21

and marketing, it is at the highest level. I mean, there is no bigger stage than China today. I mean,

5:26

New York is definitely a big stage. But pretty much New York and Shanghai are as big as it gets.

5:31

So it's been just an amazing two years, just a wonderful opportunity. It came to an end sooner

5:37

than I had planned. But that is life, right? And so confronted with what to do next, I started to

5:45

go down the normal path and started talking to people about jobs. And people were looking at

5:49

me in a very odd way. They said “What is somebody with 1.2 million followers coming and looking for

5:58

a normal job?” When people with 1,000 followers all think they're going to be the next KOL star.

6:03

And so I was guided, through the universe talking to me saying “Go out into the world and see if you

6:11

can leverage this platform to do exciting things with it.” So now this notepad is filled with new

6:18

designs for websites, new business strategies for email newsletters. And together with my

6:23

partner in South Africa - Cobus van Staden, who I launched the China Africa Project with 10 years

6:29

ago - we’re launching a new premium service of daily emails, working with writers in China,

6:36

in Africa, and around the world to contribute really amazing content. And if this is a space

6:41

that's interesting for you, and you need it for your work or to better understand the world, what

6:45

we're going to be doing is absolutely essential. OF: Well, great. Tell me then,

6:49

what is the China Africa project? EO: So the China Africa Project is

6:52

an independent, non-partisan multimedia website. We are entirely self-funded. This was a passion

6:58

project of ours for the past 10 years. And we just were interested in it. My background is in China,

7:03

but I moved to Africa in the mid 2000s. And I saw the rise of the Chinese in Africa in a

7:09

dramatic fashion. In the mid 2000s when I went, there was virtually no Chinese presence. And by

7:15

2007,2008,2009, it just went boom. And what I was seeing out there was these narratives in Western

7:21

media - from the UK, and from the United States, predominantly - of ‘China's colonising Africa,

7:26

China's taking over Africa’. And then I would ask my friends, employees and colleagues on

7:32

the ground in Kinshasa, where I was living at the time. I said “What do you think?” And they

7:35

gave me these very complex, nuanced, textured, answers. And I thought ‘That's the story’. And

7:41

the Western narrative, which still is prevalent today about China, is that China is a very,

7:46

very provocative issue for people on the outside. It's either good or it's bad,

7:50

and for the most part - 90 some odd percent of the coverage of China - it’s cynical or negative. Not

7:56

all of it. I mean, there's good reasons for that. So I don't actually want to get into that. But I

8:01

just was seeing a very, very complicated story that wasn't being reflected. And that's where I

8:06

decided I'm going to start writing, blogging, and eventually podcasting. And Cobus joined me for

8:10

the journey. So we explore every facet of Chinese engagement in Africa: social, political, cultural,

8:15

economic. Doesn’t matter, if it's related, we do it. And we've built up a large audience,

8:20

because people seem to really value the impartiality that we bring. We’re not

8:25

advocating for a company, a culture, or a country. And that's really, really important. Even though

8:32

he's South African, and I'm American, we're both white guys, we really, really

8:37

are passionate about taking that middle ground. OF: And tell me, there are so many topics that

8:42

you you approach Africa from. From the politics side, from the economy, from the culture. Give

8:47

us a few examples of what you've seen in terms of the Chinese impact and the Chinese influence. And

8:52

I guess, just any Chinese stories in Africa. EO: Yeah, so we could spend the next two hours

8:57

of this podcast - we wouldn't bore your listeners with that - and I could sit here and tell you that

9:02

China is the best thing that's ever happened to Africa. It has brought infrastructure,

9:06

it's brought telecommunications, it's brought trade. And what it's done is,

9:10

it's liberated Africa, from being dependent exclusively on Western colonial powers,

9:15

which was a story that has been a hangover for the past 50-60 years since the end of colonisation.

9:21

And China brought choice to Africans, that they didn't have to take what France was saying,

9:26

or what the British were saying, or what the Americans were saying. And they could have those

9:30

options. That's very, very powerful. OF: Even when they were being quite

9:33

benevolent, there just was no choice. EO: There was just no choice. Now there's a

9:36

choice. And choice is a really empowering thing. And it gives agency and it gives confidence.

9:41

And it's really very, very important. But I could also sit here, and I can tell you that China's the

9:48

worst thing that's ever happened to Africa. And everything that I would say would be 100% true.

9:52

Just like with everything that's great about it would be true, everything that's bad about

9:56

it would be true. The mechanisation of resource extraction is on a level that the French and the

10:01

Belgians could have never dreamed of. The arrival of Chinese vendors is both a blessing and a curse.

10:06

If you are a producer, you now have to match the China price. The same problem that we're facing

10:11

in the US and Europe is confronting Africans. If you're a consumer, you love it. Because you have

10:17

competition in the marketplace. They're breaking the stranglehold of local producers who, for

10:21

decades, choked off competition. Now the Chinese come in and said “We'll sell that pot, that pan,

10:26

whatever it is, at a fraction of the price”. That's great for consumers. So there are benefits

10:31

on all sides. The thing that I walk away with from this relationship is, if you hear anybody

10:36

say it's either good or bad, they're missing a big part of the story. Because it's both/and.

10:41

OF: Well, I see now you have your own podcast on this topic.

10:46

EO: Again, I could talk for two hours, and I won't bore your audience with that. But still 10 years

10:52

later, it's still something that fascinates me. OF: Well, it is fascinating, especially with

10:56

how you've positioned yourself as being in the middle. And I guess that leads me to ask you,

11:01

how do you go about interviewing officialdom? Not just in China,

11:06

but on both sides of this equation? EO: And it's even beyond officialdom.

11:11

Because I’m coming at this as a white, American, male. And race and gender and identity are really

11:18

important in this, because those are issues that affect the storytelling, and affect the

11:23

perceptions of how stories are told. And I have to be very, very conscious of my privilege,

11:28

I'm conscious of my status, I'm conscious of who I am. And my goal is to step back in the

11:33

process. My goal is not to make me the centre of anything. My goal is to make the people that we

11:38

interview the future. And the voices that we're bringing up into the podcast and on the website

11:42

and into the circle of this discussion. They are the ones that we really want to bring out. And

11:47

so I don't have a confrontational style in my interview method. I have a style where I really

11:54

want to try and allow you to speak. Now that pleases some people. And other people say “Well,

12:01

you should have been much tougher on this Huawei spokesman, or this government

12:04

spokesman. And because you did not ask those gotcha questions, you are therefore revealing

12:10

your biases”. And that's very interesting, because in these very hyper-partisan times,

12:14

people will take one show or one tweet or one piece of comment, and then they will extrapolate

12:22

that across your whole professional background. And I resist that. And this is the beauty of the

12:28

fact that I don't depend on anybody for anything. This is self-funded and we do this because we

12:32

love it. So some people are happy, and some people are not. But because we are independent,

12:37

we just keep doing what we think is right. And what we think is right is to stay in the middle,

12:44

to not take a side, to really be impartial, and to bring as many voices as possible to the debate.

12:50

OF: You hit upon something which made me think. Something I heard recently on the news was,

12:54

there was an argument that all news organisations should be decoupled from the commercial angle,

12:59

just like what you've described. And that actually, media organisations - be it TV shows,

13:03

be it magazines, newspapers - they actually all should be like non-governmental organisations,

13:07

charities almost. Do you see now with all of this’ fake news’ nonsense - all of this

13:14

partisan politics coming into what should be very nonpartisan mediums - do you see that

13:20

there's a solution, apart from people like you? EO: No. I used to run the largest business news

13:26

channel in Vietnam, I was the first foreigner to ever run a news organisation in Vietnam. And the

13:31

first response that you get from people who come and visit, they say “Wow, the censorship must be

13:35

terrible”. And in Vietnam, just like in China, there is political censorship on content. And I

13:41

say to them - and they always get very surprised - that I have spent now 25 years working at CNN,

13:45

AP, BBC, France 24, all over the world in most of the world's major media organisations. And in

13:51

every case, I've encountered censorship. I've encountered censorship in the United States

13:57

where it's predominantly corporate censorship. So it's commercial. That is, at CNN we never covered

14:03

critical stories of our main advertisers. You don't bite the hand that feeds you. So the tobacco

14:08

industry, when I was there in the mid 90s, was under massive scrutiny. CNN stayed away from that

14:13

story. Only until Congress started to investigate it did CNN go in. Why? Because RJ Reynolds,

14:19

which was a big consumer product company, did a lot of business with Turner Broadcasting. They

14:25

did not want to jeopardise those advertising relationships. You will never see a local TV

14:29

station in the United States do an investigation on used car sales. Because used cars are a massive

14:34

advertiser. It's just the nature of the way it is. In France when I was the Editor in Chief of

14:39

France 24, the censorship and the bias there was cultural. So they will cover Francophone

14:46

African countries at the expense of Anglophone African countries. Day to day decisions are made

14:51

based on linguistic and cultural leanings of a country. I was in editorial meetings where we

14:57

had decisions about “Do we send crews to Zambia, or to Cameroon?” And I lost the discussion sending

15:03

crews to Zambia. And then afterwards, they say “Well, of course, because Cameron's a Francophone

15:08

country.” That's a form of censorship in my world. Government-run media, Voice of America,

15:14

you know, they're not independent either. So the point is that after a career of working

15:20

in these news organisations, I have yet to find one that is impartial. And this fantastical idea

15:29

that non-governmental organisations are somehow impartial too is just offensive and ridiculous

15:34

too. They are actors in the political space like anybody else. And I think that one of the things

15:40

that I've noticed after covering Africa for so long, and covering South Asia and whatnot,

15:44

is that we give NGOs a pass, as if they’re some kind of saints. They’re out there raising money,

15:51

they have agendas and whatnot, we need to treat them like we treat any other actor

15:56

in the space. They are not immune from these biases, and from being misled or whatever. They

16:03

do good work. But who cares? They are actors with agendas, we need to treat them as such.

16:08

OF: And so you touched upon there, when you had people giving you a hard time for not

16:13

asking the right question, that one example you gave. It made me think about actually how

16:18

you now manage the news landscape in this day of immediate feedback on social media. Give me your

16:25

‘every day’ about how you manage social media. EO: There are two things that I do. If they

16:30

are respectful, I will engage them. I don't want people who just agree with me. In fact,

16:38

I live for the discussions, and for people who are on different sides. And my goal is not necessarily

16:43

to persuade you. That is not my goal, for me to be right and for you to be wrong. My goal is to

16:50

present facts and evidence and reason behind why I think it's this way. And then you can decide for

16:56

yourself whether or not you agree. And at the end of this discussion, if there is civility in it,

17:00

and it's like, “I enjoyed that" then it's great. As soon as the F-bombs, S-bombs,

17:05

as soon as anything comes out, you automatically get muted in my world. And it's just, you're gone.

17:09

I disengage, I don't pay any attention. I have too many people to talk to, and to engage with,

17:14

that I just don't waste my time with that. And it's not serious. And also, this has to be fun

17:19

and enjoyable. And when people start hurling those kind of personal missives your way, it's

17:25

not fun and pleasant. It hurts when people say “ You're a bad interviewer” or “You're a bad this”,

17:32

but that's OK, that's good. Because I like the fact that they're listening in,

17:35

they're engaged. Fortunately I don't get too much of that negativity, but it does come up.

17:40

And I just classified as, if it's civil and if it's relevant, then it's OK. If it's uncivil,

17:47

and it's not relevant, then it's very easy on social media just to go “Boop,

17:50

you're muted”. And I don't see that anymore. OF: And I guess, because it’s an English language

17:56

podcast, you're going to get lots of English language comments. Do you get some Chinese people

18:01

who are commenting? Do they have a different quality or different timbre to their comments?

18:05

EO: Yeah they do. In terms of how the Chinese interact with the outside world, it's very,

18:11

very interesting. And I don't actually think the Chinese in this sense are that much different

18:15

to the average American. The average American's awareness of the outside world is actually quite

18:20

low as well, for different reasons. In the United States, people have access to the information;

18:25

people here simply don't have access. So I find that when I have a discussion with a

18:30

Chinese person about US-China relations or China-Africa relations, oftentimes they're

18:34

coming to that discussion with about 20% of the information that we have available. They just

18:39

have not been exposed to the level of detail that we have, and to the complexity of the narrative

18:44

that we have. So there's a lot of confusion. And it's one of the reasons why Chinese stakeholders

18:50

will often go from zero to pissed off very, very fast. Because they don't have the data tools to

18:57

respond to these types of arguments. And we’ll start saying “Well, what about this? What about

19:00

that? What about this?” And they can't respond, so then it ends up oftentimes leading to “OK, well,

19:05

then… you just don't like China”. And that happens a lot. I don't think that's a productive outcome

19:11

of a conversation. Which is one of the reasons why people who have lived here for a long time - and

19:17

know the information ecosystem that they're working within - have an ability to navigate that,

19:25

to try and extract out more. Rather than people who have just come off the boat, they start

19:29

peppering the Chinese with questions, and they run into that wall very, very quickly.

19:32

OF: So as an extension to that, is there a certain way that you would ask questions to

19:37

a Chinese official that you perhaps wouldn't do to others? Or is it basically the same?

19:41

EO: Well, first and foremost, Chinese officials don't engage with foreign media. It just doesn't

19:45

happen. It used to be that Chinese scholars and think tanks would engage with foreign media, but

19:52

now that's been cut off too. There is no incentive whatsoever for a Chinese scholar to talk to me,

19:59

or to talk to a journalist. Unlike in the United States or in the West, where oftentimes scholars

20:04

want to become more famous and well-known, and that drives speaking and drives a lot of different

20:09

things that are in their benefit. Here, it's only lose/lose for them. If they say something

20:15

that is wrong and out of line with what the party line is, their careers could be over. I'm very,

20:21

very sympathetic to the individual who has to make that decision. Because at the end of the day,

20:25

he or she has a family to feed, has a career to advance, and I understand that. I'm disappointed

20:30

though, because the Chinese voice is often missing from the discussion. So it's one of

20:38

the reasons why the Chinese get such bad press around the world. It’s simply that they don't

20:41

participate in the discussion. OF: Now, I thought though,

20:44

the Chinese were starting to recognise this, and starting to work out “Yes, we need to work on our

20:48

soft power approach, not just our hard power approach”. It sounds, from what you're saying,

20:52

that they're taking a step back from that now. EO: No. Soft power is a very complicated thing.

20:57

It's manifested in many, many different ways. However, there are new forms of

21:02

soft power that are coming out. So when you talk to young Africans, 16/17/18 year olds,

21:07

you say “What do you think of China?” And they pull out their Huawei phone, or they talk about

21:12

Boomplay which is the Spotify for Africa, or they talk about StarTimes which is the pay TV service,

21:19

these are all Chinese brands. And their world is shaped by technology, by gadgets, by the content

21:25

that comes through those channels. And a lot of that is Chinese. Musical.ly, for example,

21:29

is a Chinese brand from ByteDance, it's in the United States. Now people don't necessarily know

21:34

that that's a Chinese thing. But there’s starting to be some awareness now - particularly with TECNO

21:40

which is the largest phone company in Africa - that these are Chinese brands and they’ve

21:44

brought high quality products at a low price, and have been able to to connect hundreds of millions

21:50

of people that will once not connected. That is a form of soft power. The other very quick thing on

21:55

soft power, we in the West discount infrastructure as power. We take for granted that there's a

22:03

road in our neighbourhood, we take for granted that there's a bridge, a hospital, an airport,

22:06

whatever. In the United States, less and less. I mean, our infrastructure sucks. But in Europe

22:12

it’s great infrastructure. But when Africans come over to Shanghai, and they see what's been built

22:18

here in their lifetimes, that is inspiring, it's motivating. And it's very, very powerful. People

22:26

are impressed. They don’t do that with the United States, or France or Spain, because they've had it

22:33

for a long time. This is 35-40 years old. They say “If the Chinese were as poor as we were in

22:39

my lifetime, and they did it, it can be done.” It's an inspirational story. So that's another

22:45

form of soft power that people don't think of. OF: So we’ve come to the end of the first part of

22:49

this conversation, but I guess my last question would be a crazy one, which I don't know how

22:54

you're going to answer. But what would you predict about what's gonna happen in Africa in the next

22:59

5-10 years when it comes to Chinese influence? EO: So Africa is staring down the barrel of a

23:06

gun. And it's interesting, because it’s a similar gun that the Chinese are staring down, the same

23:13

barrel. And it's the demographic barrel. China here is staring down the idea that in 10-15 years,

23:21

their old population is going to crush their young population. And you know, there's the

23:27

saying that ‘China is going to get old before it gets rich’. Now, Africa is the opposite problem.

23:32

Africa is a traditional pyramid. It's a continent of 21 year olds, 22 year olds, 23 year olds. Well,

23:42

what do 23 year olds do? They get busy and they have babies. So they’re, around the next 10 years,

23:48

facing down a surging population of 300 million new mouths to feed. And they have

23:55

to industrialise, and employ, and really create societies that are engaging for these young people

24:00

that are coming up. This huge population. Africa is going to face the brunt of climate change,

24:05

disproportionately. Already it is. South Africa was on the verge of running out of water. Not just

24:11

Cape Town, but the entire country. The deserts are spreading faster in Africa than they are anywhere

24:16

else. The extremes in heat. Climate change is going to wreak havoc in many parts of Africa.

24:22

So that's another reason why this infrastructure has to be built as a buffer against the changing

24:30

climate. So both are racing against time, but for different reasons. And it’s one of the reasons why

24:36

a lot of African leaders have turned to the Chinese for loans, and for infrastructure,

24:42

and for support. Because no-one else is lining up to give them this money. The West will talk a

24:50

great game about human rights, and “don't take the Chinese money,” and debt sustainability,

24:53

and all of this. But they're not willing to build the ports, the roads, the freeways, the highways,

24:58

the hospitals, the special economic zones. And so again, we can hear from the West all

25:04

of those pleasantries, but at the end of the day, they're not lining up to give the money,

25:09

the Chinese are. So I think that this is a very important calculated risk that African leaders

25:14

are making now. It's a gamble. It's a risk. But because they've got that population bulge that

25:19

is coming, they’ve got to do something about it. OF: Very good. And I'm very conscious that I'm

25:25

saying ‘Africa’ as a huge generalisation, I mean… EO: 55 countries.

25:27

OF: I know, I mean it’s terrible. EO: Lots of people. You're talking

25:30

from Cairo to Cape Town and everything in between. The diversity. And by the way,

25:34

the same applies to China. You know, I always say that this is not a single country, this is

25:41

1,000 countries. And they say ‘it's a civilization posing as a country’ and I think there's a lot of

25:45

truth to that. So the diversity in this country is also misleading in many respects. And this is

25:52

not a single actor, when we're talking about the Chinese. Chinese provinces are engaging in Africa,

25:56

Chinese government, Chinese corporations, Chinese state-owned enterprises, migrants. It’s happening

26:00

on so many different levels. So I think again, these are shorthand words for very complex ideas.

26:06

[Part 2] OF: Let's jump into Part 2.

26:11

EO: Oh-Oh. The lightning round. OF: The lightning round. You can

26:13

answer as quickly as you can, or you can take your time. It's up to you. So Question 1,

26:17

what is your favourite China-related fact? EO: $24 billion - $1 billion every hour - sold

26:27

by Tmall and Alibaba on November 11, in that sale. Think about it,

26:32

24. And I think last year was like 26 billion,

26:36

more than $1 billion an hour. Incredible. OF: So just to explain, that’s November 11th

26:40

every year. Explain what happens in China. EO: So what they do is, they created this

26:44

anti-Valentine’s Day. So it was it was Singles Day and they picked November 11, because it's sticks,

26:51

you know, representing single people. And Alibaba, the world's largest e-commerce company, started

26:56

just discounting products. And they created this phenomenal type of culture around selling. And

27:02

so everybody, all the brands line up, the whole country, it becomes like a national holiday. So

27:07

basically take Black Friday, Black Monday, Cyber Monday, all of those kind of sales and put it on

27:14

steroids. And this is compacted into just one 24-hour period, they're selling more in volume

27:20

than all of the Christmas holiday shopping season in the United States. It's remarkable. 24 billion,

27:26

and it just keeps going up every year. OF: Amazing. Do you have a

27:30

favourite word or phrase in Chinese? EO: In Chinese, they have these things

27:34

called 成语 [chéngyǔ]. If you are a highly educated Chinese person - and maybe even kind of middle,

27:43

but an educated person - you will speak in these idioms and these phrases. And Chinese is

27:48

a beautiful language for that, because it can mean so many different things. And you can get a very

27:53

complex idea into just 2-4 characters, normally 4 characters. So they have one called 养儿防老 [yǎnger

27:59

fánglǎo], which means that the young, when you grow up, you are taking care of your parents.

28:03

And so the son, it's a male responsibility. So when you're an older man, taking care

28:11

of your elderly parents, you say 养儿防老 [yǎnger fánglǎo]. Ot's the filial piety type of part of

28:20

the culture. And I just absolutely love how in this culture, elderly people are cared for and

28:25

looked after and valued. And in my culture, for the most part, older people oftentimes are not.

28:30

OF: Well said. What’s your favourite destination within China?

28:35

EO: I spend most of my time in the tier one cities Beijing, Shanghai, 广州 [Guǎngzhōu], 深圳 [Shēnzhèn].

28:43

But just like where you come from, and just like where I come from, the heart of the country is

28:49

not in these tier one cities. The heart of the country in the countryside. So I was just in 贵州

28:53

[Guìzhōu] which is in the south, which is one of the more poor provinces, I was in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng]

28:57

a few years ago, in 甘肃 [Gānsù]… I've been to about 15 different provinces. And so for me,

29:03

it's going out into the countryside, and it's just the simplicity of it, you roll back 4-500

29:07

years when you go into the countryside. You're still seeing oxes. And electrification hasn't

29:13

reached everywhere. It's much better than it was. But the standard of living is very,

29:18

very different. The way that they do things, the tiered farming, the mountains are all tiered.

29:23

I mean, these go back centuries, and how they do things in those techniques. And you realise again,

29:28

just the scope and scale of how big China is, and how complex it is, as soon as you go out. And by

29:33

the way, you only have to leave Shanghai an hour or two outside and you've gone back centuries.

29:38

OF: Right. EO: So for me, it's not a

29:41

specific place, just not being in the big cities. OF: If you left China, what would you miss the

29:46

most, and what would you miss the least? EO: I never leave China. I've been involved

29:51

in China since I was 15 years old. I've been coming since I

29:53

was 18 or 19. So in this particular case, I am actually physically leaving the country,

29:58

but I'm never leaving. I am always connected to it through my work. And I will be back. So for me,

30:03

it's a ‘see you later’. The thing that I miss the most is the pace. Everywhere

30:11

else feels slow compared to Beijing and Shanghai. And just that amazing energy

30:16

that people have is just unbelievable. OF: And that's specifically Shanghai

30:22

compared to other cities too, right? EO: It is specifically Shanghai. OF: Yeah. EO: Beijing, Shenzhen runs

30:25

at this pace. Some of the big cities run at this pace. There’s a China speed, there is definitely a

30:30

China's speed. I am wired for that. And maybe I've been raised in it. But I go back to New York or

30:37

London - or some other places that are presumably fast - and they feel very slow. So I love that and

30:43

it's just… it's kinetic. It's energising. You get going, and out you go. Seven days a week,

30:47

the Sundays here are as busy as the Mondays. And I love that. What I don't like - and with everything

30:55

there's always good and bad - the waiting in line thing. It’s gotten much better. It’s much better.

31:00

It's a generational thing. I generally find people under 30 are very good at waiting in line, and

31:06

people over 30 are not. And you have to remember that everything in China is about scarcity.

31:11

This is a country of 1.4 billion people, where resources are in short supply, seats in schools

31:19

are in short supply. Everything's in short supply. So people have to fight with what they can get.

31:24

OF: Yeah, when you say that it makes you think “Yeah, the ones who did not push in

31:29

the front of the queue are the ones who are not here anymore.” When you think about what happened in China's history EO: Historically, and that's just if you don't

31:34

fight to get everything, you’re not going to get anything. And that's just the mindset.

31:38

And I understand where that comes from. But when you’re waiting to check out of a hotel,

31:43

and a guy just walks straight in front of you… And the amazing thing is, he doesn't even see you.

31:49

OF: Yeah, it’s not rudeness, actually. EO: It’s not actually rudeness. And

31:52

you're just like "No, no”, you know, and then he looks at you and he goes “Oh,

31:58

I'm so sorry”. And I think Westerners oftentimes misinterpreted it as being direct rudeness.

32:03

He was only looking at the checkout desk. And he didn't see the two people or three people.

32:08

OF: Is there anything - even now, 30 years later - that

32:12

still mystifies you about life in China? EO: Every single day. I mean, the complexity

32:20

of it never, ever ceases to amaze me. OF: And this is someone who

32:24

speaks fluent Chinese too, right? EO: And again, the more you know, the less

32:27

you know. And there's this great chart, actually, that was circulating on social media. And it shows

32:33

‘age' versus ‘time being here’. OK, so the young people who have been here for one year,

32:39

all want to write the book on China. And they feel like they know it. And you can tell, these

32:44

people who have just been here for 1-3 years. And then the longer you go here, the amount of

32:48

time you spend here, the less you actually know. So the X/Y axis, and it just keeps going down,

32:54

down, down, down. And I am extraordinarily humble about what I know and what I don't know. I have a

33:02

graduate degree in Chinese foreign policy, I've spent 30 years here, I've been studying Chinese.

33:05

I think I know a little bit compared to Westerners and other outsiders. And by the way, the Chinese

33:12

themselves are not very well educated about their own country. A lot of the people who are raised in

33:17

the cities don't know much about the countryside. Same, by the way, in my own country as well. It's

33:21

too big for any one person to really grasp. And so I mean, nobody can really understand it. There

33:28

is no such thing in my view as a ‘China Expert.’ OF: And when I hear your podcast, it also makes

33:34

me think “And there's no such thing as one monolithic Chinese policy versus Africa,

33:39

versus anything, right?” Because it's so complex. EO: It is very complex. You need an enormous

33:43

amount of humility. And I always want to make sure that humility comes out in everything that

33:47

I do related to China. So I'll get accused by Chinese people saying “Oh this Westerner

33:53

thinks he knows everything”. And I'm like “No, no, no, you don't understand. I don't

33:58

know anything”. I don't know. I mean, I'm not being just fake humble. I'm genuinely saying,

34:03

I am learning every single day. Confucius had this idea that says “You only gain wisdom when you're

34:08

70”. And I think there is some truth to that, that I still have another 20 years trying to figure

34:13

this out before I start piecing it all together. OF: OK, see you then. Where is your favourite

34:19

place to eat, drink, or just hang out? EO: I mean, the perfect answer for this,

34:24

and the cliché answer would be, some corner dive in the French concession that serves the best

34:28

dumplings that you've ever heard of it, that nobody else knows. And it's their secret spot,

34:32

that only this one foreigner seems to know. I won't give you that answer. Because to be

34:37

honest with you, eating Eastern Chinese food - so that is Shanghai Chinese food - actually is

34:45

not my favourite. I gotta be honest with you. It's greasy, I don't like the MSG,

34:49

and it's very salty. I prefer Southern Chinese food, 云南 [Yúnnán], and then Western Chinese

34:55

food. I love that. But this food, I don't like. So I actually like the French bistros and the

35:03

Western food here in the French Concession. I don't have a particular favourite. I mean,

35:07

listen, I'm a big Wagas fan, I mean, that's a very kind of mainstream pedestrian answer. But

35:13

they do good service. You know, what I'm gonna say? But I don't actually have a favourite dive,

35:18

or corner, or hole-in-the-wall in Shanghai. OF: What is the best or worst purchase you've

35:23

made in China? EO: A Roomba. OF: Oh, you've got one? EO: I’ve got one. And it

35:27

broke within like two months. OF: Oh so it was the worst one.

35:30

EO: It was definitely the worst purchase I've ever made in China, bar none. It was the Roomba.

35:35

I mean, that's an international product, so it's not China's fault. The problem is that

35:40

I don't understand the complexity of the return policies, the maintenance policies, and the whole

35:45

thing. All of that gets into a Byzantine kind of system. So I still have this broken Roomba in my

35:52

closet. And the best purchase that I've made - not really a purchase - is our little puppy

35:58

Luna. And she's from Shanghai Animal Rescue. By the way, props out to Shanghai Animal Rescue,

36:04

they are angels doing god's work there. OF: Wow.

36:06

EO: So she will be with us as a memory of Shanghai for hopefully

36:10

a very long time. But that is by far the best. OF: Awesome. We'll have a photo of her please.

36:14

EO: Yes. OF: OK, next question. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? EO: I have a lot. I do. This was actually one

36:21

of the harder questions. But I do like the slow clap. So I've got a

36:25

couple of slow clap stickers, just to make fun of my friends who are

36:30

either expressing pride or expressing something, and you kind of give them a

36:34

slow clap. So yeah, so I'll say the slow clap. OF: Excellent. Now the second hardest question.

36:39

What’ss your favourite go-to song to sing at KTV EO: OK, so this is quite revealing. I've spent a

36:47

significant chunk of my adult life in Asia - Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam, China - I don't

36:55

do KTV. I don't do it for the betterment of society, and I don't do it because you don't

37:01

want to hear me sing. OF: Oh, but I do.

37:03

EO: Oh no, you really, really don't. And I don't do it for me either. So I

37:09

actually am going to have to pass on this question, simply because I don't do KTV.

37:14

OF: OK. EO: But I could do, you know,

37:16

like, shower singing like. OK, so if it's not KTV it's like the song in the shower. Oh god, this is

37:26

like the cute, quaint dumpling place in the French concession, your whole character will be judged on

37:30

how hip you are, on what song you sing, you know. OF: Just say what's on your mind now, because

37:36

that's gonna be your true real self exposed. EO: Oh no. I… I'll say American

37:46

Pie. “My, my, Miss American Pie OF: Eric, it's beautiful, what’s wrong with you?

37:53

EO: I mean, I'll be on that front line podcasting, but not singing.

37:56

OF: The final question, which for you actually is quite interesting. What other China-related

38:01

media or sources of information do you rely on? Apart from of course, your own.

38:05

EO: Well, the thing that I read every day, without missing it, and it's a long meaty read

38:12

is the Sinocism newsletter by Bill Bishop. And for anybody who's interested in China,

38:16

particularly China-US, this is not optional. I mean, in these days, and right now. So he's doing

38:22

basically the same thing that I'm doing, which is filtering through, providing some perspective,

38:27

staying in that middle ground space. I'll also put out Jeremy Goldkorn and Kaiser Kuo with the Sinica

38:34

Podcast and SupChina. Those guys are doing the same thing, they’re all part of the same culture.

38:39

We're all part of the same generation that spent a lot of time here in the 90s, have some perspective

38:44

on China. The thing that I really want to caution people on is that there are a lot of haters on

38:50

Twitter and things like that. I really think that when you consume information about China,

38:54

it's increasingly important now to consider “Do the people that you are reading and following

39:00

speak Chinese?” And in the old days, you didn't do it. And I use the same standard, could a Chinese

39:07

person come to the United States and not speak a word of English, not read the New York Times, not

39:13

understand anything that Trump is saying in his own language, and say that he really understands

39:17

us? Impossible. And I think the same applies to China watchers outside looking in. If you cannot

39:24

speak Chinese at a level sufficient to be able to understand what 习近平 [Xí Jìnpíng] is saying in a

39:30

speech, even 80% of it, I just don't take you that credibly. In my view. So that's been a line now,

39:37

I know that's a snooty line for a lot of people, but again, we apply the same standard to us, that

39:42

you can’t understand us if you don't speak our language. And there is no way you could understand

39:47

American culture without speaking English. OF: Great. Well, I can't think of a better

39:50

place to end that conversation. Thanks so much, Eric. That was great. And of course, the final

39:55

question I ask everyone on this podcast is, in the next season, when I interview more people,

39:59

I want to have someone who you recommend. So who would you recommend that I speak to next?

40:03

EO: I am going to recommend that you speak with a wonderful woman by the name of 赵慧玲 [Zhào Huìlíng].

40:07

And 赵慧玲 [Zhào Huìlíng] is a vlogger. She is based here in Shanghai. She was born in Ghana,

40:14

and has spent an enormous amount of time in Africa. And now she's dividing her time between

40:18

Shanghai and different parts of Africa: Kenya, Ghana, Tanzania and other places

40:23

like that. And really bringing African life to Chinese users on social media through vlogs and

40:29

WeChat posts and things like that. And I just think she, in many ways represents the future,

40:34

which is expanding the China/Africa relationship beyond a political/economic

40:38

one to a human and cultural one. OF: Excellent. I can't wait to

40:42

meet her. Thanks so much, Eric. EO: My pleasure. Thank you so much.

40:45

[Outro] OF: Thanks

40:49

again to Eric. You can find him mostly on LinkedIn, just search for him there under

40:53

his name. He’s also on Twitter at eolander. He also hosts the China Africa Podcast,

41:00

which I’m sure you can find on whatever platform you’re listening to this on.

41:04

This was the third recording in a row that I did at my apartment in Shanghai. And if

41:08

I sounded a little on edge this time, it's because I was trying to impress Eric at the

41:12

start of the podcast by offering him the tea which he'd requested. Only,

41:16

since we're not a tea-drinking household, I needed to delve into the back of my cupboard,

41:20

and in so doing I tipped over and smashed a whole bottle of vinegar all over the floor. So it wasn't

41:27

the best start to the interview. Luckily for me, Eric is a class act, and he didn't ridicule me at

41:32

all, which is definitely not what I would have done to him if the shoe was on the other foot.

41:38

Nothing much else to say about this recording, there was the usual mention of the French

41:42

Concession, whose actual name is the Former French Concession. The reason I'm careful to

41:47

mention this each time is because the Chinese don't really like this area being defined by

41:51

the time it was under the influence of a foreign power. Which is actually fair enough I would say,

41:56

I mean, I can't think of many countries that would wear that as a badge of pride. Mind you,

42:01

even as I say that, I'm wondering whether that's correct, so please tell me if I'm wrong. Anyway,

42:06

even though the former French Concession area does have a look and feel that's quite

42:11

distinct from the rest of Shanghai, it's only really called that by the foreigners.

42:15

The other thing Eric mentioned which might not have been clear is the acronym KOL. He was talking

42:21

about how people with 1,000 followers on social media think that they're the next KOL. In case

42:26

you're not into marketing lingo, this just means an 'influencer', it stands for Key Opinion Leader.

42:31

Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, editing by Milo de Prieto, graphics by Denny Newell,

42:37

China technical support by Alston Gong. If you like us, please rate and comment on iTunes or

42:43

wherever you download this podcast. It really does help with the algorithms, in getting this

42:48

podcast noticed by other people. So thank you very much, and I’ll see you next week.