Episode Transcript
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0:02
[Trailer] EH: Oh but today, I told everybody.
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OF: It's OK. No-one listens to this podcast anyway.
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[Intro] OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
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about people who are making their mark in China.
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I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
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Today’s episode is with the film director, Elaine Huang.
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Our conversation starts off predictably, I ask her the kinds of questions you would expect
0:29
me to, about her experiences as a film director, her background, her personal opinions about
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the film industry in China, “do, do, do.”
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And then the conversation evolves.
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This is one of those episodes where we go into very personal territory.
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And you may remember that I mentioned in the intro episode to Season 03 that I was also
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going to try and inject a little more of myself into the interviews this Season.
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Today’s episode represents perhaps the most I am ever going to share on this podcast.
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I couldn’t have done so without today’s guest also being so open and so generous about
1:07
sharing her story, so I want to say a very big thank you to Elaine right from the start.
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I should also say from the start that if you’re listening right now in the middle of a painful
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part of your life, maybe skip this episode until you’re in a more reflective space.
1:24
[Part 1] OF: Thank you very much for coming, Elaine.
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EH: You're welcome. OF: We're doing this recording in my house.
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Because the studio I'm using right now, someone in that building had been close to somebody
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who had COVID. EH: Right.
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OF: So they closed the whole building. I think it's already opening in a few days.
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EH: Right. OF: So it's a good example of how China is still managing COVID.
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If there is even a friend of a friend who came close to somebody, then whole buildings
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still get shut down. So this has affected us.
2:00
Luckily, you could still come to my house. EH: Right.
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OF: So listen out for the background noises outside my lane.
2:06
EH: Yes. OF: Elaine, in a nutshell, what do you do here in China?
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EH: Right now I would call myself a filmmaker.
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I’m working on a feature film, hopefully it will happen next year.
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OF: I'm assuming that your film was also affected by COVID.
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EH: Yes. It's supposed to happen in 2020.
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Two years postponed. OF: Yeah.
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But it sounds like things are on the move again.
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EH: Yes. Excited, yes.
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OF: Well before we go into that story, what object did you bring that represents your
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life here in China? EH: An orange balloon.
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OF: What is the meaning of that?
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EH: Well, it's quite improvisational thinking.
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My boy has been playing with it.
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You know, the balloon has a very thin skin, and when you blow it big it’s quite risky.
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Sometimes in China, the pressure, it kind of feels like something is wrong, or like
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“Ah, what happened?” But the balloon is beautiful.
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And in different circumstances, it's lovely to have.
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So this can represent my life in China right now.
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And also it's an object my boy is playing with.
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So it's my life also, with this boy.
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OF: Right. EH: And it’s like we are all like kindergarten children.
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You have to behave yourself, especially as filmmakers or artists.
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You feel so many restrictions.
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You cannot do this, you cannot do that.
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Even smoking a cigarette in a scene: the actor is making the movement of smoking a cigarette,
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but you don’t see the cigarette.
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You just see the smoke.
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Absurd, funny things happen in China.
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But this just one example of that.
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OF: Yeah. Well let's talk about your work then.
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So how would you describe your work? EH: I'm a film director/writer.
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OF: Aha. EH: This project actually began in 2016, when I first tried to promote my script, to reach
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some producers and to get some funding.
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It’s a very difficult journey because first of all, it needs a lot of money, and actors.
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And what comes first can draw the other.
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Like, if you have money, then you can appeal to some good actors.
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If you have good actors, then money will come.
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My situation is that actors all want to come to my project because they like the script.
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But then my type of film, maybe it's just too serious.
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About, like, family issues.
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So I've been waiting for the money for quite a long time.
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And sometimes money comes, but it's not the right money.
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People will say, like “I want this, I want that” in your film, which I don't want.
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So it's getting really difficult to get money, especially for our serious films.
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Like not-trying-to-please kind of films.
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OF: Yeah. So you like to focus on films that have a serious topic?
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EH: Yes. Even if it's difficult, I will keep doing this.
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OF: Well before we talk about your film, why don't we talk about your background.
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How did you get into film production and film directing?
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EH: I went to college, studying Chinese literature.
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And then - I don't know how and when - I developed an interest in theatres.
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So I went to Beijing, I did a postgraduate degree in theatre directing.
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Then in 2007, I went to London and studied art administration and cultural policy.
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I did that because I wanted to make my own plays, and I thought I needed some producing
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knowledge. So I went to London.
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I watched a lot of plays when I was in the UK, I think maybe I spent more time doing
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that than I spent in class.
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So when I got back to China in 2010, I was so ambitious to be a theatre director.
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And then I found out, there was a big difference.
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Comedies were the main plays in Beijing.
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So I didn't think it was a good atmosphere or environment to make plays.
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And I tried, but couldn't find investment.
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People really didn't appreciate serious topics, they would call you “Too academic.”
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Then I met this American producer who wanted to make a musical in Beijing.
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He saw my work in the National Theatre, and I was asked to meet him, and he said “I
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like your play.” And I worked with him for two months on his play.
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And then halfway through, he changed his mind, and he wanted to do a musical film instead.
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OF: Oh so not the theatre, he wanted to switch to film.
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EH: Yeah. And then I told him that I don't have film knowledge, I'm a theatre director.
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And then he said “Who can say that they can do a musical film in China?”
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OF: No-one! EH: There was one Hong Kong director, Peter Chan, he did a musical film.
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But John - the producer - said he’d rather have a director who has a theatre background.
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So he sent me to New York, and he paid for the school, and I went to NYU Continuing Education.
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I spent two years there, I practiced shooting films, and when I got back to Beijing I shot
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music videos and short films.
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OF: He financed two years of study just so you can do his musical film.
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EH: Yes. But we couldn't agree on the script, so we didn't work together.
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OF: Oh. EH: After all that.
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Maybe we were both just too artistic.
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So we didn't work together.
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OF: But that was your move from theatre to film, right?
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EH: Yes. OF: That’s what opened the door to film.
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EH: Yes. OF: And now, do you still do theatre?
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Or you've left that part of your life behind?
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EH: I will be back, I think.
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Because after this feature film, I really want to do maybe a play - or a musical - for
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the same script. I still have this big passion for theatre.
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OF: Well, since we're talking about theatre, it reminds me of the way that we know each
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other, which is from the referral of Björn Dahlman from last season.
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EH: Yes. OF: Let’s hear what he had to say about you.
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[Start of Audio Clip] Björn DAHLMAN: Well I have a very good friend.
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She's in a way part of my China history, because she was an associate director in the project
9:09
that brought me to Shanghai. Her name is Elaine - or 黄绮玲 [Huáng Qǐlíng] - she’s a very good friend, a
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film director mainly these days.
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I think you should have a chat with her, I think she might have some really nice perspectives
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on things. [End of Audio Clip] EH: I miss him.
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We were both doing a Shanghai theatre performance.
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We spent time together, we worked on that for two months.
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And when I was in New York, he had a performance there.
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So he travelled from Sweden, and he stayed in my apartment, on the sofa.
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OF: Ah. EH: Yeah, we just have so much common passion.
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And when we talk about shows, we were just so excited.
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OF: Yeah.
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Well I hope it's not too long before you can be reunited, I know Björn would very much
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like to come back to Shanghai. EH: Of course, yes.
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OF: Well you mentioned that you might want to convert this project you're doing into
10:07
a theatre piece? EH: Yes.
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OF: So why don't we talk about this project. What is going to be the content of the movie?
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EH: This story is inspired by my cousin's family history.
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My uncle was part of the first generation who got very rich during the 1980s in 广州
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[Guǎngzhōu]. He was a worker in the factory, one of his first jobs was just to haul dead pigs.
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What’s that called? OF: Like, take dead pigs from…
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EH: …From here to there. OF: Oh.
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EH: Like, within the factory. And then in those days, we didn’t have enough electricity supply.
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OF: Yeah. EH: So he imported this kind of machine, generators…
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OF: Ah. EH: …From Hong Kong, into hotels, hospitals, factories.
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OF: Wow. EH: So yeah, he was a big money guy.
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Men, when they become rich, they tend to have more options, right?
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OF: Ah. EH: And then he had a double life.
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He had two families. OF: Really?
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EH: Yes. So then my cousin, she just tortured herself.
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She has this eating disorder. OF: Oh, like anorexia.
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EH: Yes. OF: Ah.
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EH: Because actually she found out that when she was sick, her father would come back home.
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OF: Oh I see. So she actually forced herself to become sick.
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EH: Right. I think she didn't realise it could be that serious.
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Even my aunt somehow allowed her to do that, to make sure the family is complete.
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And then my cousin almost died from that disease.
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She was in hospital and the doctors already told the family that she might be gone soon.
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She was just 25 kilogrammes.
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We all didn't know.
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And when we were 30-something, she and I sat together and had a cup of coffee, and she
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told me this. At that time, my uncle was in a very serious situation, he almost died in 2013.
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My cousin hadn’t talked to him for over ten years.
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The family was broken. But I knew how much my uncle loved her.
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And I asked my cousin to visit him.
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Yes, my uncle has another family, he has another daughter.
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But I didn’t want her to miss that chance to talk to him.
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She did. She had a boy, a little boy, and she told me that she saw my uncle in tears holding
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the little boy.
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And she felt like she could let go of the hatred, just right before my uncle passed
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away. In the funeral, I saw my cousin kneel down, just crying.
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And she kept saying “I'm sorry, I'm sorry”.
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That really moved me, and made me decide to really have to make this into the film.
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OF: And what is her opinion on your project?
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How much are you sharing with her? EH: I share almost everything with her, in different stages.
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Like I keep telling her “Right now I have this as my candidate for my uncle, for your
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father”. And I need to ask her - almost like a permission - “Do you like this actor to be your father?"
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Even my aunt, she's very supportive.
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She would be kind of joking, like “Oh, the reality is more dramatic than the film.
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Because when I talked to many of my friends - especially girls - I heard so many similar
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stories between dad and daughter.
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Because my family also… my mom passed away when I was a child.
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So I kind of feel like, if you have the chance, why don't you just talk to your parents, or
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express your love? That's what I was thinking.
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But when I talk to them, one of them told me “Imagine if your father held a knife
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to your mom, because of just 200块 [kuài] or something.
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How can you forgive this person?”
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That's why I kind of rewrote my script several times, because all this information came to
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me. And I don't try to persuade anybody to forgive someone, but it’s just to show them they
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might not see these kind of facts.
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Like, in my script I write about the fact that everybody has this kind of situation.
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Somehow we made a mistake, we lost the chance to correct it, but that doesn't mean that
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we don't care. Yes, right now when I’m talk about it, I still feel like I'm doing the right thing.
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OF: Yeah. EH: Yes.
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OF: And this, to me, it sounds like a universal situation between sons, daughters, mothers
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and fathers. Do you think that there is a specific aspect to this which is more common in China?
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EH: As we all know, in China this kind of economic change all happened in this short
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time. And people were not prepared to adjust themselves to this ever-changing situation?
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I also try to communicate with the audience in my script, that the mom would keep saying
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that "money money money makes life better.”
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That's their starting point. I don't think it's wrong.
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So that's why I think people will make mistakes.
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Like, people can see this, and take a step back.
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OF: Yeah. I mean, I understand what you're saying.
15:55
When people look at what's happened in China, they see how amazing it has been.
16:00
That people have gone from poverty to a healthy standard of living in just one generation,
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in half a generation. What your story says is, it's not just about the money side, there has to also be the emotional
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side as well, right? EH: Right.
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OF: I can see why this is taking up a lot of your mental energy.
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Because it's so personal. EH: It is.
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OF: It’s so close to you. EH: It is.
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I put half of myself into this character.
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OF: Oh really. EH: Of course.
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Their stories are similar. I mean, I also have a stepmom.
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Not because my father had an affair, but my mother passed away when I was young.
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In the script, my cousin went to study abroad for 7-8 years.
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And when she came back, she had to let go of that trauma.
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That's the message of the story.
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So this actually is half of my own life.
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OF: That’s your life. Oh.
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EH: When I came back, I had to pick up where I left.
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You know, you have to face it, and try to solve it.
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OF: Yes. You know, that's the part that I relate to the most.
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Because when you said that your mother died when you were young, actually that's the same
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with my story. EH: Right.
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OF: My mother died when I was 11 years old.
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And I don't know if you are comfortable to talk about this.
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Because in China, it's never easy talking about death, right?
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EH: It is not! OF: Right?
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People are very scared to discuss it. But I feel always a closer connection to people like you, who have also lost a parent very
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young. And work through it.
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When you said you were working through your trauma, what did you mean from your perspective?
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EH: I worked on it; I have been working on it; I’m still making efforts to work on
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it. OF: Yes, even now.
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EH: It is.
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You cannot really overcome that, in your whole life.
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OF: Yeah. EH: I don’t think so.
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Yeah, it's really difficult. OF: Really difficult.
18:01
Well I'm looking at your object, the orange balloon.
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And I can see exactly why this has a meaning for you, I understand.
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And I'm the same, sometimes life to me is this big balloon.
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And it's cheerful and colourful.
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And I can meet interesting people, and enjoy my life.
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And then sometimes the same balloon gets smaller.
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I actually think we're very similar.
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EH: Yes. OF: I didn't expect to empathise with somebody over an orange balloon, but I do.
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EH: Yeah. OF: I was thinking about this as you were talking, I wonder how similar we are.
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Let's play bingo about what character traits you and I have in common.
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EH: OK. OF: Is this a thing about people who lose a parent very early in their life?
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Do you think that you have a tendency to go into depression, and then you come out?
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Do you have ups and downs? EH: Absolutely, yes.
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Because people sometimes think I'm very sociable.
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OF: Yes. EH: And even in my script, you can see kind of a very split Elaine in it.
19:09
OF: Yes. EH: Because I have this sense of humour when I speak my mother language.
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I’m very funny. OF: Yes.
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EH: I’m almost the funniest person in my college dorm, I can always make them laugh.
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But I'm not that person. OF: Yes.
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EH: But I am that person! OF: Yes!
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It’s the same. I'm exactly the same.
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EH: Right. OF: That's a very good coping mechanism, right?
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When you… You can use it almost as a barrier sometimes, because it's shielding your emotions.
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EH: Right. OF: Yeah.
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Actually I had an ex partner. And he was always annoyed, because he saw those two worlds.
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And he thought “Hey, you're so fake.
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How come you are this person in one situation, and you're this person in another?”
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And it's very difficult to explain that “No, it's the same person.”
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EH: Right. It's the same person.
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Like, yeah. OF: That's it.
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There are people who don't know you, they think “Oh, she's too much.” EH: Right, yes.
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OF: “She's always playing the clown.” But people who know you better, they’re the ones who know both sides, right?
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EH: Yeah. OF: OK, “Bing, bing, bing!
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We have bingo there, we have a match.” EH: Yes.
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“Bing, bing, bing.” OF: The next thing.
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Er, let me think. Here’s one more thing I have.
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If my husband is running late - if it's like two hours later than normal - I think that
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he’s dead. EH: Bingo!
20:18
OF: Bingo? EH: Oh god.
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OF: I knew it. I can't stop myself.
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I picture him in a car crash.
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EH: I do this every second, almost.
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OF: You do the same? EH: I do the same.
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Like, I contacted my lead a few days ago.
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She didn't reply for a few days.
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I thought “No! No!
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You're the biggest star in my film! You cannot die!
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You cannot have an accident!”
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OF: Yeah, isn’t it funny?
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And I'm aware. I know I have this - I think they call it ‘death anxiety’ - I know I have it.
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And yet I can't stop from thinking it. EH: Wow.
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I wonder how many people have this. I just have this big fear of my loved ones dying.
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Like, every day.
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Every day. That's why I'm making a documentary of this Swedish undertaker who worked in China.
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OF: Oh. EH: I've been doing this since last year, because I couldn't do my feature.
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For him it’s a business, but… OF: You're drawn to this as a subject, right?
21:20
EH: Mmm. OF: OK, let's do the next bingo.
21:25
Do you have anger issues?
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She's nodding EH: Like in daily life, I do, nowadays.
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OF: Yeah. EH: These days my anger is about “Why me?”
21:35
OF: Yeah. EH: Right.
21:37
OF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. EH: I don't know if I can be angry with who, but it's just “Why me?”
21:42
OF: This is interesting. So, it's like a kind of victim complex.
21:45
EH: Right. OF: Yeah.
21:48
I… See, I have to be careful because I can go into this victim mentality very, very easily.
21:54
Even small things, right?
21:56
And I feel so stupid when this happens because I have a good life.
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EH: Right! OF: Right?
22:02
I actually don't think about the bad things too often.
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But then when there is a small thing that happens…
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EH: Absolutely, yes. OF: Yeah.
22:11
Same with you? EH: Exactly.
22:13
OF: Yeah. EH: Yeah, most of the time I can be balanced.
22:15
“Don't pity yourself. Don't be pathetic.”
22:17
I hate that. And I hate people who behave like that, too.
22:20
OF: Yes. EH: But…
22:22
OF: It's there. EH: It’s there.
22:24
OF: It’s there. EH: Yes.
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OF: I think being aware of it, at least it's part of the solution.
22:29
Because when I feel myself going into that situation, I…
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At least I have to engage my brain and say “Oscar…”
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EH: Stop. OF: “Don't do that.”
22:38
Yeah. OK, this is a good therapy session right now.
22:41
Actually, everything we're saying is negative.
22:43
Just to finish on this bingo, I feel that it gives us one major superpower - I really
22:49
feel it with your project as a filmmaker - which is empathy.
22:53
EH: Mm-hmm. OF: There’s always something which I can empathise with - look to the humanity of someone
22:59
- even if they come across as someone who is, let's say, angry or who is not someone
23:03
who other people would empathise with. I can always empathise with people.
23:07
Is that also the same? EH: Yes.
23:10
Sometimes it even makes myself feel good.
23:12
Like “I’m a good person.” OF: Yeah.
23:15
EH: Yeah. OF: Yeah, I think that's the power we have to decide to use.
23:19
EH: Right. OF: All the other things, they can overpower this one aspect.
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But if we decide to focus on that positive, I think all the other negative side washes
23:30
away. So this is what I try and work on every day.
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I know I have this skill, but I have to really want to use it.
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EH: Mmm. Maybe the film is just a metaphor or a representative of all these efforts.
23:44
OF: Yeah, I think so.
23:46
Especially because you can work on someone else, right?
23:49
It's close, but it's also distant, because it's your cousin’s story, it's not your
23:53
story. And yet…
23:55
EH: It’s protecting myself… OF: Yeah.
23:57
EH: Because I always tell people that this is my cousin story. OF: Yeah.
23:59
EH: But it's my feelings, my emotions… OF: Yeah.
24:02
EH: My trauma as well.
24:04
OF: Yeah. EH: Oh but today, I told everybody.
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OF: It's OK. No-one listens to this podcast anyway.
24:10
EH: OK. OF: Thank you so much, Elaine.
24:13
EH: You’re welcome, Oscar. OF: Let’s move on to Part 2.
24:17
EH: OK. [Part 2] OF: So the 10 questions.
24:24
Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily: What is your favourite China-related fact?
24:29
EH: Cantonese is not a dialect, it’s a language.
24:33
OF: Ah. EH: That’s what I heard.
24:36
And then I 百度 [Bǎidù]’ed it today, and Cantonese is still a dialect.
24:40
But we can call it a language, because Cantonese has its own kind of characters.
24:47
OF: Hang on. So this is you being a proud Cantonese person, right?
24:52
You want to think that it's a language, but… EH: It is still a dialect.
24:56
OF: Right.
24:58
In Hong Kong, when they speak Cantonese, they use the 繁体字 [Fántǐzì], right?
25:02
The traditional script. EH: Yes.
25:04
OF: But in 广东 [Guǎngdōng], you speak Cantonese, but you would use the simplified
25:09
Chinese. EH: Simplified Chinese, yes.
25:11
OF: So what do you mean when you say that there's a different written language?
25:14
Because it's the same written language as Mandarin, no?
25:17
EH: No, it's not. We have different grammar…
25:20
OF: Oh. EH: …Between Cantonese and Mandarin.
25:24
And we don't have the same phrase for some things.
25:28
OF: Of course. EH: Yeah.
25:30
OF: Well, the fact is that it is a dialect.
25:32
But in our heart, we can still treat it like a different language.
25:35
EH: Yes. OF: Question 2 which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in
25:42
Chinese? EH: I will say I have a favourite phrase in Cantonese.
25:47
OF: Yeah, give me that one. EH: 頂你個肺 [Ding lei go fei].
25:50
OF: Wow, your energy suddenly changed.
25:54
EH: Do you understand that? OF: I do not understand EH: OK.
25:57
OF: Say it once more? EH: 頂你個肺 [Ding lei go fei].
26:00
OF: 頂你個肺 [Ding lei go fei]. OK, I obviously got it wrong, because she's laughing now.
26:04
EH: No, you're not wrong, but it's not a polite..
26:07
Not, not… yeah, yeah…
26:10
It's vivid. It’s…
26:12
Like, in real life. To me, Mandarin sometimes is like a formal language.
26:16
To me. Maybe it’s because I’m not a native speaker.
26:19
OF: Yeah, that's like an emotional distance between the two languages.
26:23
EH: Mmm-hmm. OF: OK, and what does your phrase mean?
26:25
EH: It means ‘You're bad.
26:28
How can you do that?’ OF: Ah.
26:30
EH: It literally means ‘I’m punching your lung.”
26:33
OF: Punching your lung? EH: Lung.
26:35
OF: Oh. EH: Yeah, punching your lung.
26:37
OF: What is the equivalent phrase in Mandarin?
26:40
EH: Just like ‘cow’ in Mandarin?
26:42
OF: Oh! EH: Yes.
26:44
OF: Oh, so it's actually rude. EH: Not that rude.
26:46
But like I said, it's very vivid.
26:48
Like, “Punch your lung!” OF: I will ask you for how you write it later.
26:52
EH: OK. OF: Next question.
26:54
And this comes to us from naked Retreats: What is your favourite destination within
26:59
China? EH: 海南 [Hǎinán] Province.
27:01
OF: Oh! EH: Because I’m a sea person.
27:03
OF: Right. EH: I’ve got too much darkness inside.
27:07
OF: Yes. EH: Oh, I need sunshine.
27:09
OF: Yes. EH: I need space.
27:11
I need brightness. OF: Yes.
27:13
Very good. And of course, going south, that must be almost like going home to 广州 [Guǎngzhōu].
27:18
EH: Yes. OF: Do you have any family still in 广州 [Guǎngzhōu]?
27:21
EH: Yes, yes. OF: So if they see that you go to 海南 [Hǎinán] and don't go to 广州 [Guǎngzhōu], do they
27:25
get angry? EH: No, because always the next stop would be 广州 [Guǎngzhōu].
27:29
OF: Oh good. EH: They know I'm going home.
27:32
OF: OK, so you take a detour through 海南 [Hǎinán].
27:35
EH: Yes. OF: Smart.
27:37
Next question, if you left China, what would you miss the most and what would you miss
27:40
the least? EH: I will miss the food.
27:43
OF: No, no, you can't say that.
27:45
If it's food, you've got to give me one… EH: Hotpot!
27:48
OF: Hotpot. Spicy style?
27:50
EH: Spicy style. It’s not necessarily my favourite food, but I enjoy having hotpot with friends.
27:55
OF: It’s the atmosphere, yeah. EH: It’s the atmosphere.
27:58
Because I lived in Beijing for eight years.
28:01
I got used to spicy food. OF: And what would you miss the least?
28:04
EH: I can't stand people walking into the lift without waiting.
28:09
OF: Yes. EH: This is a tiny thing.
28:12
But, like, to me, I can’t understand.
28:14
OF: I absolutely agree.
28:16
In fact, another lady from China, Michelle Qu, she said the same thing…
28:21
EH: Right, OK! OF: …About the thing that she would miss the least.
28:24
Funnily enough, there was an English lady called Roz Coleman in Season 01, and she attributes
28:29
this to something called ‘Shanghai Flow.’ Where people in Shanghai, they always need to be on the move, they don't wait, they don't
28:35
stop. I understand that.
28:37
But when it comes to elevators… No, stop, and let me out first, right?
28:40
EH: Yeah. And I will say that, literally.
28:43
Especially when I'm not in a good mood. OF: Yeah.
28:46
EH: I will say, “Can you just wait?” OF: I know.
28:49
This is the ‘angry child’ side of you and me.
28:52
EH: Oh. OF: Right?
28:54
But it's not reasonable. How can I get out, if you come in first?
28:56
Yeah. Let's not talk about it, because we're gonna get angry.
29:00
Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
29:04
EH: Oh, you can order medicine at midnight, and it gets delivered it to you in a half
29:10
hour or something. OF: Yeah.
29:12
EH: I love this. OF: It’s so convenient, I know.
29:15
People often talk about ordering food, but they don't realise that in China, you can
29:19
order all kinds of things at any time of the night.
29:21
EH: Yes. OF: We’ll move on quickly, I know you have to rush.
29:25
Next question comes from SmartShanghai: What is your favourite place to go out, to eat,
29:30
or drink, or just hang out? EH: The French Concession.
29:32
The trees, the streets, the feeling of wandering around here.
29:37
It makes me happy.
29:39
OF: Yes. People say ‘the French Concession’, we should always say it's 'the former French
29:44
Concession.’ EH: Oh, 'the former French Concession.’
29:46
OF: Yeah. But I'm glad that it's not just the foreigners who make that mistake.
29:50
EH: Uh-huh. OF: Next question, what is the best or worst purchase you recently made?
29:55
EH: Oh, iMac. OF: Oh, you bought an iMac?
30:00
EH: An iMac. Yeah, I love it.
30:02
OF: That's for your work? EH: Yes, for my work.
30:04
OF: There you go. Next question, what’s your favourite WeChat sticker?
30:06
OK, send it to me now.
30:08
EH: Is it lovely? OF: Ah.
30:11
EH: It's a pig. Piggie dancing in a grass skirt, expressing my happiness.
30:17
OF: Your spirit animal.
30:21
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV? EH: It's a Cantonese song.
30:25
我等到花兒也謝了 [Ngo dang dou fa yi ya je liu]: “I Wait Until the Flower
30:30
Drops.” OF: OK, tell me about that song.
30:32
EH: It's a love song, it's a break-up song.
30:36
Like, a sad person will say “Oh, I’ll wait until the flower’s dead”.
30:42
You feel that “Wow, this person is so much in love”.
30:47
Like, that kind of feeling. OF: Nice.
30:49
EH: Not really like a negative thing.
30:51
OF: OK, I'll check it out.
30:54
And finally - this comes from JustPod - what or who is your biggest source of inspiration
31:00
in China? EH: Nature.
31:03
I enjoy walking under the trees, even just seeing the leaves shining.
31:08
It makes me feel like I'm living, I'm alive.
31:13
And there's so much you can cherish in the world.
31:16
OF: Beautiful. What a nice way to end our discussion.
31:19
Thank you so much, Elaine. EH: Thank you.
31:21
Thank you very much for the invitation. OF: And before you leave, who is the person you would recommend that I interview in the
31:28
next season of Mosaic of China? EH: ‘Wanimal’! 王动 [Wáng Dòng].
31:32
OF: OK, who's that? EH: It’s a ‘he’, he’s a photographer, he’s a set designer, he’s an artist.
31:43
He's been doing nude photography.
31:47
He's a very interesting man.
31:49
He's a good friend. OF: OK.
31:51
I'm intrigued. I can't wait to meet him.
31:54
His name is ‘Wanimal,’ you said. EH: Yeah.
31:57
Because his family name is 王 [Wáng].
31:59
And he called himself an animal. So ‘Wanimal’.
32:02
OF: Perfect. And if you had one question that you would ask Wanimal, what would you ask him?
32:08
EH: OK, then… Would you have me as your model?
32:13
OF: Nice question.
32:15
Would you do it? EH: I would!
32:17
Why not? OF: OK.
32:19
This could be the next project for Mosaic of China in that case..!
32:21
EH: OK! OF: Everyone who does the project has to have a nude photo.
32:24
EH: Oooh good, good! From Wanimal!
32:27
Yes, he would be thrilled. OF: Thanks again, Elaine.
32:30
EH: You’re welcome.
32:32
[Outro] OF: The big update is that Elaine finally
32:36
managed to shoot her film earlier this year in 广州 [Guǎngzhōu], and she’s now in
32:40
Hong Kong working on the edit and post-production.
32:43
The film’s title is ‘二十四味 [Èrshísì Wèi]’ or ’24 Flavors’, which is also
32:48
the name of a Cantonese herbal tea.
32:50
It’s a healing remedy that contains a multitude of bitter and sweet tastes.
32:57
It was a big challenge to film during the pandemic period, so Elaine wanted me to convey
33:01
her gratitude for all the support she got from family and friends and the local government
33:06
too. She added that some of the opinions she expressed about the film industry in our recording would
33:12
be different today, so I’m already looking forward to hearing about how everything went
33:15
down when we record our catch-up interview next season.
33:19
The film should have been released by then, Elaine estimates it should come out in the
33:23
second half of 2023, so let’s keep our eyes open for that.
33:29
Just a few points of clarification.
33:31
Firstly, Elaine mentioned that she “百度 [Bǎidù]’ed” something: that’s the
33:35
equivalent of “Googling it” elsewhere.
33:37
Secondly, she mentioned that she made a documentary about a Swedish undertaker, that was a slip
33:43
of the tongue, it was a Belgian undertaker, the name of that piece is ‘The Soul Consoler’,
33:48
or 老魏 [Lǎowèi] in Chinese.
33:51
And thirdly we mentioned 广州 [Guǎngzhōu] and 广东 [Guǎngdōng] somewhat interchangeably
33:56
in our conversation, so let me be a bit clearer about that.
33:59
广东 [Guǎngdōng] is the province, it’s what English speakers might call Canton, where
34:03
the Cantonese dialect comes from. It’s the big province on the mainland just north of Hong Kong, where of course they also
34:10
originally speak Cantonese.
34:12
And 广州 [Guǎngzhōu] is a city, it’s the capital city of 广东 [Guǎngdōng] Province,
34:17
and the third largest city by population in China.
34:19
And… I’ve never been there.
34:22
Ouch, I will need to try and fix that by Season 04…
34:26
The biggest disclaimer of all is that all the things that came up in our game of ‘Childhood
34:31
Bereavement Bingo’ were totally unscientific.
34:34
There are so many ways in which these things can manifest, so please take that whole exercise
34:39
as a demonstration of empathy between Elaine and I, rather than anything else.
34:44
You know, when some people try to summarise Mosaic of China, I often hear them say things
34:49
like “Oh, it’s about foreigners in China”, or “Oh, it’s about entrepreneurs in China.”
34:56
Of course I don’t like to correct them, because I’m just grateful that they’re
34:59
talking about the podcast at all.
35:02
But it’s nice to have the excuse to point out that this project is just about life,
35:07
which happens to be taking place in China.
35:10
Many many past guests have also shared deep personal and family experiences, so in particular
35:15
I would like to point you to the Chinese comedian Maple Zuo from Season 01 Episode 02, or the
35:22
ultramarathon athlete Greg Nance from Season 01 Episode 23, and of course ‘Jiyoung’,
35:28
the transgender teacher from Season 02 Episode 30.
35:32
As always, you can see all the extra images and graphics accompanying Elaine’s story
35:37
on social media or at the Mosaic of China website, where you can also find the links
35:43
to subscribe to the longer edition of today’s episode on the PREMIUM version of the show.
35:48
Here are some clips from that: [Clip 1]
35:51
EH: Before, money comes from the mine owners.
35:54
Kind of like money laundering.
35:56
[Clip 2] OF: A rule comes into place, and you have
35:59
to suddenly reshoot your film. EH: Right.
36:02
[Clip 3] EH: They tried so hard, but they couldn't
36:04
keep up, so they lost their chance. [Clip 4] OF: They do their work, they do their job,
36:09
I'm like “How do you do it?” EH: Right.
36:11
[Clip 5] EH: Actors in 广州 [Guǎngzhōu], they’re
36:13
more like sitcom actors. Too exaggerated.
36:16
OF: Exaggerated, yeah, yeah.
36:18
[Clip 6] OF: When people decide to get married, they
36:22
do it for very pragmatic reasons, right?
36:24
EH: Yes, some of them. [Clip 7] EH: And the owner said “Where are you from?
36:29
Korea? Korean?”
36:31
[End of Audio Clips] Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell.
36:37
Today’s PREMIUM version has an extra 25 minutes of content, which come not just from
36:42
the full-length version of my chat with Elaine, but also from the catch-up interviews I had
36:47
with two previous guests whose names have already been mentioned today: the Swedish
36:52
clown Björn Dahlman from Season 02 Episode 17, and the Chinese comedian Maple Zuo from
36:57
Season 01 Episode 02.
37:00
You can hear shorter versions of those chats coming up after the music, and I’ll see
37:04
you here again next week.
37:07
[Catch-Up Interview 1] OF: Hey Björn, how are you?
37:20
BD: Hey Oscar, I am great. I'm in the middle of my vacation.
37:23
It's beautiful Swedish summer.
37:26
OF: Well, we did our original interview remotely while you were in Uppsala in Sweden, because
37:32
you were locked out of China at that point.
37:34
We had every expectation that the next time we caught up would be in Shanghai again, but
37:39
it hasn't happened. BD: I know, it’s a mess.
37:43
I am longing to get back. You know, I still dream about Shanghai.
37:47
In my dreams, I'm in Shanghai.
37:49
And it's just bizarre. I'm not getting used to this situation at all.
37:54
OF: Well, this is it. It's now been, what, two years already?
37:57
It must be feeling like a proper dislocation at this point.
38:00
BD: Well it totally does. I mean, on all levels: my good friends in Shanghai, my work, everything.
38:07
OF: Yeah. Well let's talk about your work.
38:10
For anyone who didn't listen to your episode from
38:13
Season 02, you are a professional clown, and you are known here in Shanghai as ‘The Frog
38:18
King’, correct? BD: That is correct, yes.
38:22
OF: So what are you doing now? Are you still making a living as a clown full time, or are you broadening your work across
38:28
other theatrical projects? BD: Well, originally I am more of a traditional actor - like, text-based theatre - and also
38:37
director. Clowning came in quite late in my life.
38:40
So back here in Sweden, I run my own theatre company where I am more of a director/scriptwriter/actor.
38:47
Of course, the clowning is always there, I created new clown shows, I just came back
38:52
from a tour actually to Poland with Clowns Without Borders.
38:56
We were playing for Ukrainian orphans.
38:59
So the clowning is still going on. OF: Well that's good.
39:02
Because in my mind, I was imagining that the poor Frog King was just a red nose on the
39:08
floor, discarded in the corner. But no.
39:10
BD: No, no, no. The clowning is…
39:12
It's developing, things are happening, absolutely.
39:15
OF: Is there an idea that you might be able to remotely connect with your network back
39:19
here? BD: Actually, it happened.
39:21
I did a few online shows in China during the pandemic, and it worked quite well.
39:26
It was a very strange experience. OF: Yeah.
39:29
BD: Me - and sometimes a colleague - alone in a room, performing for a camera phone for
39:33
twenty minutes - and we were like… it felt like we performed for two hours, we were so
39:38
exhausted. Because you don't get the feedback.
39:41
OF: Yes. BD: But it's been very interesting in China, because we are working a lot with this concept
39:46
of ‘training of trainers’. And in China, they was just no interest in that.
39:52
So that is one of the big things I need to crack.
39:54
You know, teach teachers how to be playful, how to play.
39:57
OF: Yeah. BD: We will get there, but I think it's a long-term ambition.
40:02
OF: Yeah. Well this is where you're needed to come and be that the physical embodiment of that whole
40:08
philosophy. And it is a philosophy, I still remember how you are trying to allow people to embrace
40:13
their mistakes… BD: Yeah.
40:15
OF: …And of course, that's the big cultural piece that is quite hard to engage with here
40:18
in China. It's something which I often think about, just in my day-to-day here.
40:23
So maybe I am trying to be that clown on your behalf, I'm making a lot of mistakes, all
40:28
the time. BD: Please, please, I am so proud of you.
40:33
That's interesting, because we talk a lot about this “Oh, in China, you're not allowed
40:37
to lose face.” I mean, you're not allowed to lose face anywhere in the world.
40:42
OF: Right. BD: In China, you talk about it in a very special way.
40:47
It is a part of the culture to a much higher extent.
40:50
But it's not unique for China. OF: I agree.
40:53
And this is always the line that you have to tread on either side.
40:56
It's 阴 [yīn] and 阳 [yáng]. BD: It is, it is.
40:59
OF: Well, you obviously were in Season 02 of the show, and that means that you are sandwiched
41:05
between Season 01 - and the person who referred you, who was Maple Zuo - and Elaine Huang,
41:11
who you introduced to Season 03.
41:14
So first of all, are you in touch with Maple Zuo?
41:16
BD: Actually, I am not.
41:19
This whole stand-up comedy society.
41:22
I mean, I don't interact with them much because I miss them so so much.
41:28
It's been a bit painful, actually, to keep in touch with them.
41:32
OF: Well I have good news for you, because Maple is not in Shanghai, she’s actually
41:36
in the UK. So she's also dislocated from China.
41:39
BD: Oh, is that good news?
41:42
Well, good thing, she’s closer to me than I thought.
41:45
That's good to know, maybe I can meet Maple even.
41:48
OF: Alright, well if you meet her, then send me a photo.
41:51
BD: I sure will, I promise.
41:53
OF: And then the person who I mentioned, who you referred for Season 03 - and of course,
41:58
this is the episode where we will include your update - is Elaine Huang.
42:02
BD: Yeah. OF: So how about you and Elaine?
42:04
BD: We’re still in contact. Not that often.
42:07
OF: Yeah. BD: But it’s…
42:09
You know, with these friends who you’ve known for many many years, and they live abroad.
42:12
It's like, six months pass and then you say hi, and then you chat a little bit.
42:18
We both have birthdays in May. Every single year she remembers my birthday, I forget hers.
42:20
But this year, I remembered hers.
42:25
So I think that was the last time we spoke. OF: It's nice to remember now and again, so that you keep the 关系 [guānxì] going.
42:31
BD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. OF: It’s also great to catch you.
42:34
I know that you are on holiday, so thank you for giving me your time.
42:37
BD: Thank you. I got very happy when you wrote to me about this catch-up.
42:41
OF: Thank you so much. BD: Thank you, thank you.
42:44
Bye. [Catch-Up Interview 2] MZ: Hey Oscar, how are you?
42:48
OF: I'm well! And it's great to see your face, because last time we saw each other, you were in my apartment…
42:54
MZ: Yeah. OF: …And I think you had a flight booked to the UK, maybe two or three days after that
43:01
conversation. MZ: Yeah, exactly.
43:04
OF: So now it's been 18 months.
43:07
I'm guessing you're still in the UK, right?
43:09
MZ: Yeah, I'm in the UK. Do you think I look slim?
43:12
OF: Yeah, actually. Is that because you hate the food so much?
43:16
MZ: Because there's nothing to eat.
43:19
OF: This is the problem, this is why I've gained weight.
43:23
Because I've got a taste for Chinese food, and it does have an effect on your body, right?
43:28
MZ: Exactly. Here it’s just bread and salad.
43:30
There's no oil. OF: Well what is your situation, then?
43:34
Where are you right now? MZ: I'm in London right now.
43:37
I'm just having a day off today. OF: A day off from what?
43:40
So what is your everyday life these days? MZ: So right now I graduated from university.
43:45
So after that I'm just working in, you know, the FE sector.
43:49
Like, the Further Education sector. OF: Oh right.
43:52
MZ: Yeah. OF: Well congratulations on finishing the Masters.
43:56
And for everyone who maybe didn't hear our original episode, you were doing comedy when
44:01
you were in China. MZ: Yeah, I was.
44:03
OF: But that was your night job. Your day job was always in education, right?
44:06
MZ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back in Shanghai, I had a drama school.
44:09
All my like career experience is teaching, teacher training, or the education sector.
44:14
I think, for me, I want to just first get my job sorted.
44:20
And then I'll pick up my hobby.
44:22
I haven't done a gig yet, but I have been watching comedy, like open mics.
44:26
So I kind of like observing what their material’s like, because the jokes are so different.
44:30
Because I realised all my China jokes don’t work. So I'm just writing materials.
44:34
I booked one open mic, but there’s a three-month waiting list.
44:38
OF: Oh god. MZ: Yeah.
44:40
So I will be going for a trial, and see what it looks like.
44:44
The thing is, whenever you create an art piece, it takes time to create.
44:48
I have around an hour of material.
44:50
But to build that hour, I probably prepared for three years.
44:54
OF: Yes. MZ: And when coming over here, I realised “Oh, I don't even understand these people.”
44:58
Like, if I don't understand the culture, I don’t understand the people, how can I go
45:01
on stage to make them laugh? I need to know more.
45:04
I don't want to just put myself out there.
45:06
Because when you put yourself out there, if people say “Oh you’re good, let me book
45:09
you another gig, let me book you another one,” there will be more, but then you don't have
45:12
anything to say. You don't have more material.
45:14
OF: Right. MZ: I don't want to show my face for the sake of it.
45:19
OF: Yeah. MZ: I want to be a content writer.
45:21
OF: Yes. MZ: Especially jokes, they take time.
45:23
OF: Look, as far as you leaving China when you did, I think it was the right time - especially
45:28
when it comes to comedy - because there were two things that happened.
45:31
I think stand-up comedy, it did grow in terms of Chinese-language stand-up comedy in China.
45:36
But for the English language comedy, it's been more and more marginalised.
45:40
I think audiences are getting smaller and smaller.
45:43
MZ: The Chinese comedy, they’re not going really well either.
45:46
Because at the beginning, they had different organisations doing it.
45:49
But then later on, it became a business.
45:51
So like a big one bought the small ones.
45:54
OF: Right. MZ: And then when it became a business, people used that as the quickest way to get famous.
45:59
A lot of the young Chinese comedians - they’ve just got one or two good jokes, and they may
46:04
be presentable - they got selected to the company.
46:06
The company will sign up maybe 100 comedians, but then they won't cultivate you.
46:11
Because they won't make jokes for you, you have to write them yourself.
46:14
If you can stand out, that's great.
46:16
But if you can't, "We're not helping you.” Whenever you sign for the company, it's a ten-year contract.
46:22
OF: Oh wow. MZ: So for ten years, really only one or two will stand out.
46:24
It's like a pyramid, right? One or two will stand out.
46:26
The rest of you, if you want to do a gig outside, no you can’t…
46:29
OF: You’re stuck, yeah. MZ: …Because you have to follow your company's policy.
46:31
So if you're gonna get out, you have to pay money.
46:35
So a lot of companies are actually making money because people cancel their contract.
46:38
They’re making money in that way as well. And the people who actually stand out, you realise “Oh, they're not funny any more".
46:44
Or they don't do comedy anymore, they went to a live TV show or a reality TV show.
46:49
Why do they do that? Because as I said, those materials take years to build.
46:54
You put them on TV, people are expecting more, but you don't have more, but you’re already
46:58
famous. So they kind of just like do random things, they’re not funny, they just all lost it,
47:02
I feel. OF: Really interesting.
47:04
MZ: Because I have a lot of friends who are doing comedy.
47:07
So we keep constantly chatting to each other.
47:09
When you are up, you never know you're up. OF: Oh.
47:12
MZ: Like, I realise right now, looking back, I’m like “Oh my god, that was my peak!”
47:16
OF: You were touring across Thailand and Singapore…
47:19
MZ: Yeah. OF: And yeah, it was…
47:22
I mean, if you had just gone up up up, I think your comedy would have become more and more
47:26
constrained. You would rather…
47:28
MZ: You need to suffer. OF: You need to suffer.
47:30
You need to suffer, man. Well Maple, I remember that you referred Björn for Season 02.
47:36
MZ: Yeah Björn, yeah. OF: And now, this update is going to be at the end of Season 03, with the lady who Björn
47:43
referred, which was actually a lady called Elaine Huang.
47:46
She is a film director. Do you know Elaine?
47:49
MZ: No. OF: Ha!
47:51
But now you are connected. This is how the Mosaic is gonna work.
47:54
MZ: I feel like, you know, it’s so nice talking to you. Because I remember when I first met you in the coffee shop, you just had this idea.
48:00
OF: Right. MZ: You hadn't even started.
48:02
OF: I remember that coffee. Whenever I walked past that place - on 复兴路 [Fùxīng Lù], I think it was - whenever
48:06
I'm in that area, I think about you Maple. MZ: Oh.
48:09
That’s nice, that’s really nice. OF: Well you must catch up with Björn because Björn is currently in Sweden.
48:14
He's also stuck outside of China. And I don't think he even realised that you were in the UK.
48:18
So at some point, you guys have got to meet up.
48:21
MZ: I’ll talk to him. OF: Yeah yeah, you should.
48:24
Because since you're both part of the Mosaic, let me be the thing that keeps you together.
48:27
MZ: Ah that’s so nice. You are the connector of everything.
48:30
OF: There you go. I wish you good luck in everything that you do, Maple.
48:34
MZ: Ah, thank you. OF: And your accent has changed, you’ve got a little bit more English since I last
48:39
spoke with you. MZ: Did I?
48:41
OF: A few words. I can't remember which ones they were now, but they've jumped out.
48:44
Like, “Oh, she's picked up some English there.”
48:46
MZ: I try not to OF: Yeah, I'm not sure it's a good thing.
48:51
MZ: If you're coming back, I'm still here.
48:54
We’ll definitely catch up. OF: I will let you know.
48:56
Thank you Maple, stay in touch.
48:58
MZ: Thank you Oscar. Bye-bye.
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