Episode Transcript
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0:03
[Trailer] CC: We welcome everybody. Until they get so
0:05
drunk and try to break stuff.
0:08
[Intro] OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
0:13
about people who are making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
0:19
It's been a short while, but we're back with the second half of Season 02. If you’re
0:23
a new listener, welcome, and here’s a quick recap of how the show works. There are three
0:29
parts to each interview. The first part is a straightforward two-way conversation, which
0:34
starts with the guest introducing an object that in some way describes their life in China.
0:41
In the second part, I ask every guest the same 10 China-related questions, all on the
0:46
theme of their personal experiences, tastes and opinions. And the final part is just one
0:53
extra question, where I ask each guest to nominate someone for the next Season of the
0:57
show. And this is how each interview represents a connective tile which builds out into a
1:03
Mosaic of China.
1:06
The show has also been designed to include a visual element, so please follow the images
1:11
on Instagram or Facebook, or head to https://mosaicofchina.com. In last week's bonus episode, we discussed
1:18
that there are transcripts of the show also on https://mosaicofchina.com, for anyone who
1:24
is hard of hearing or whose first language isn't English. Actually there's a new update
1:30
to report, in the last couple of weeks, YouTube has made it easier to upload captions to videos.
1:36
So I tried it out, and managed to upload all the transcripts for each episode there. So
1:42
if you have access to YouTube you can now listen to the regular version of the show
1:46
while reading the subtitles in real time. I would do the same on 微博 [Wēibó], but
1:51
they've stopped allowing me to post there. Thanks for nothing, 微博 [Wēibó]…
1:57
Now that you're caught up, let's get on with today's show. And it's quite an embarrassing
2:01
one for me, because you can tell that I have absolutely no idea about the subject matter
2:06
we're talking about. I can just about fake my way through most subjects, but not today!
2:12
So be prepared to roll your eyes at me a lot in this one. On top of that, my guest Cassandra
2:19
is just too cool and too nonchalant. So this combination of ignorance and intimidation
2:25
is apparently enough to turn me into a nervous giggling child. Which I hope will at least
2:30
bring you some amusement. [Part 1] OF: I'm with Cassandra Chen. Hello, Cassandra.
2:37
CC: Hello. OF: Nice to see you. CC: Nice to see. OF: And you are a bar owner of the bar called…
2:44
CC: Inferno. OF: Inferno. People might have a clue about
2:47
what this bar is, just by the name, right? CC: I hope so.
2:51
OF: Inferno is a heavy metal bar. CC: Yes, that's right.
2:55
OF: Well, we’re going to talk about the bar. But before we do, the first question
2:59
I will ask is, what object did you bring that in some way describes your life here in China?
3:05
CC: Well, I brought an Inferno T-shirt. It’s a T-shirt made up for a Viking Night.
3:13
OF: Oh, can I take a look? CC: Yeah, sure.
3:15
OF: OK, here we go. OK. Well, it's as I expected, it is dark. It is slightly scary.
3:23
CC: Yeah, it's Odin on his horse. OF: Ah.
3:27
CC: Yeah. OF: Tell me what this signifies. What is Viking
3:31
Night? CC: We basically do some Viking metal, like
3:37
from Scandinavia. And people sometimes can even dance to it, It's not really brutal music,
3:44
it's kind of happy. Right now, we're doing this two or three times a year. And basically,
3:52
our customer would put on helmets, wear leather outfits, and drink from horns.
4:01
OF: Oh. CC: Yeah, they bought tonnes of horns online.
4:04
OF: Oh, so they bring their own horn. CC: Yes. It's actually very pretty.
4:10
OF: And where did this idea come from? Is that something which is connected with heavy
4:14
metal? CC: Yes, actually, it is. These people are
4:17
barbarian. OF: Yeah, right. When I think about heavy
4:21
metal, I do think of Scandinavians with maybe big bodies, big beards, kind of aggressive…
4:28
CC: Yeah, that's exactly what we have. It's really like home for the metalheads to hang
4:37
out, like a family, giving ideas for events, and sometimes helping out to wash the dishes.
4:48
OF: The customers help out. CC: Yes. It’s still a very small scene,
4:54
a very small community, and it’s kind of a risk to open a heavy metal bar. I know a
5:02
lot of live houses, they have some heavy metal shows. But as a bar that only plays heavy
5:07
metal, no. You need to know enough people who have the same hobby. It’s a big move.
5:15
OF: So could I accurately say that yours is the only heavy metal bar in China?
5:20
CC: Yes. Yes, you can say that. OF: That's pretty special.
5:23
CC: Yeah OF: I am really interested to hear more about
5:27
this because… I mean look at me, I am not a typical heavy metal fan, right?
5:32
CC: Yeah. OF: In fact, I get quite intimidated.
5:35
CC: Well, we accept everybody. I mean, different colours, even if they speak in different languages,
5:43
different thoughts… It’s fine. We welcome everybody…
5:47
OF: OK. CC: … Until they get so drunk and try to
5:50
break stuff. OF: It sounds like that does happen sometimes.
5:55
CC: Yeah, it does. OF: So who are these people? Who are your
6:00
customers? CC: Um, designers, engineers, English teachers,
6:07
even karate teachers, all kinds. OF: But are they mainly male?
6:12
CC: Um, mainly, yes. We still have some girls. But they cannot drink that much. I was just
6:21
joking, we have both. I realised that most of them are nerds. They like video games,
6:31
they play D&D, they even watch animation, and they love music. These kinds of people
6:39
can bring good ideas on the table, very creative. OF: So was it one of these nerds who first
6:48
came up with the Viking Night? CC: Yes, that's right.
6:51
OF: Oh right. So you're already planning the next one as well. CC: Yes, we are planning
6:55
the next one. Hopefully, like, end of the year.
6:58
OF: Great. Maybe I will come. CC: OK. Yeah.
7:02
OF: Do you have a very small horn for me? CC: Only for shots, right? Not for beer.
7:08
OF: There you go. Maybe I can fill it with a very small pink cocktail.
7:12
CC: OK. OF: So maybe I shouldn't be intimidated by
7:16
you guys. CC: Not at all, not at all. Like, on a Sunday
7:20
- the slowest night - you’ll have 10 people watching some horror movies that we play all
7:27
the time. OF: Well, it sounds to me like your entire
7:31
community, your entire life, has some connection to this music.
7:34
CC: Yeah, you can say that. The metalheads - our small community, as I know them - most
7:42
of the people are honest people. Not aggressive at all, not as you imagine. You can easily
7:50
talk to them. Then the second time you go, you know somebody.
7:54
OF: Yeah. CC: Very easy-going people.
7:57
OF: So how did you get into it? Were your parents musicians of any kind?
8:04
CC: No, not at all. My mom was like a sales manager, my dad was a chemist, in the lab.
8:11
So nothing related. OF: So what do they think of your life now?
8:16
CC: Of course, they never agree, from the beginning. But they’ve somehow accepted
8:23
my choice. So here we are. OF: Exactly. And when did you first get into
8:31
this style of music? CC: I think at the end of high school, I listened
8:37
to Linkin Park. Then I was like “Hmm, maybe I want to play in a band when I get into university.”
8:43
Then I just started to listen to new metal from the beginning. Then my tastes just got
8:51
heavier. I like the heavier side, like heavy riffs. Again, you always can find your own
8:58
type of people, so we had this small community. You just start to hang out with them, go to
9:04
concerts, drink with them, talk about bands. New Urbans. After I graduated, I got a designing
9:12
job. But that was boring. Then I tried different things. A few years later, a heavy metal bar
9:23
opened. And I started to drink there. OF: And that was Inferno, was it?
9:28
CC: Yeah, that was Inferno. OF: OK.
9:31
CC: One year later, one of my friends died. So it reminded me that life is short. I should
9:38
do something that makes me happy. And makes me care. So I quit my daytime job, and I started
9:47
bartending at Inferno. OF: OK, how old were you then?
9:50
CC: I think that was 26. I was pretty scared and shy. There were a lot of people. Everybody's
9:59
requesting drinks, expecting you to do something about it. And I was basically just running
10:05
around. I didn’t even look into the customers’ eyes.
10:09
OF: Yeah. CC: Yeah.
10:11
OF: And then, I think the noise problem closed down the first Inferno. We had a neighbourhood
10:19
like maybe 100 metres away. So… OF: So they complained.
10:23
CC: Yes, they complained. Then we changed to the second place. Then the second Inferno
10:30
was much bigger, around 400 square metres, with a stage, with a kitchen. But then that
10:38
meant a lot of work. I lost one partner, because my partner left to Denmark.
10:47
OF: Oh, I see. So until then you were in a partnership.
10:51
CC: Yeah. Also, I had another partner, who was a Dutch girl. And the Dutch girl barely
11:01
had time to help out. OF: Oh so you're basically running it by yourself?
11:05
CC: Yes, everything's on my shoulders. All the events, the stage equipment, the bartending,
11:12
the kitchen. At that time it was more like a live house. So every day I needed to contact
11:20
bands. Mostly local Shanghai bands, but sometimes I got some bands from Beijing. And then we
11:30
had some international tour bands. We had Nightwish, Carcass, Lamb of God, As I Lay
11:41
Dying... OF: And these are pretty famous bands right
11:45
now? CC: Yes. That was a lot. For me, all I remember
11:50
was just work. I had three years of insomnia. OF: Oh, insomnia.
11:55
CC: Yes. OF: Oh, wow. So it looked successful from
11:59
the outside. Like, you still had big bands coming and you were still running the place.
12:03
CC: Yes. OF: But then on the other side, it didn't
12:06
work for you. CC: It was just simply too much.
12:09
OF: Yeah. That’s, I think, the thing people don't realise about running a bar, right?
12:14
They see the sexy side, like “Oh great, you're surrounded by friends, you're surrounded
12:18
by alcohol, you can see bands.” CC: Yeah, that’s right.
12:20
OF: But the running of the bar is something else, right? CC: Yeah, that's a totally different thing. I didn't even want to step my foot into that
12:27
place anymore. Eventually, we decided to close down the place. But I it took me, like, half
12:36
a year to process this idea. OF: Right. Because it would be hard to let
12:41
go, right? CC: Yeah, that's right. That was my baby.
12:44
OF: And I guess you also felt some kind of responsibility to this community.
12:48
CC: Yes, that's right. On the last night, some of the people just cried. I think at
12:57
that time, I really, really needed a break. But I also really, really didn’t want to
13:02
let it go. It was a complicated feeling. OF: Yeah. Well, I can imagine why it took
13:09
you six months to pull the trigger. CC: Yes, yeah. Then I went to Beijing for
13:17
a few weeks. And our regulars always reminded me about this place, how much this place has
13:27
been loved. So then I started looking for a new place. So the third Inferno, I targeted
13:39
it in a different way. We removed the kitchen, removed the stage, made the bar smaller, more
13:47
cosy. People still can make requests for music, listen to whatever they want, as long as it’s
13:53
heavy metal. And people just chill. OF: So, less about live shows.
13:58
CC: Yeah, the stage was difficult to run. Not enough local bands. And the choice of
14:06
music is very narrow. OF: And this is what you meant by “It's
14:10
a risk to start a bar like this”. CC: Yeah, that's right.
14:13
OF: Right. CC: Yeah. OF: Well, let's move on to Part 2. CC: OK.
14:19
[Part 2] OF: OK, Question 1. What is your favourite
14:24
China-related fact? CC: I really admire the first Empress in the
14:31
唐 [Táng] Dynasty, who was the only Empress in Chinese history.
14:35
OF: Ah, 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān], right? CC: Yes.
14:37
OF: Tell me why. CC: She was fighting from the bottom to the
14:42
top of her life. And running the country, and making it strong. So as a woman at that
14:48
time, it's very impressive. OF: Do you try and live your life in the same
14:53
way? CC: Not really. I think nobody could. In the
15:00
清 [Qīng] Dynasty, one of the Empresses tried to do the same thing. But I think she
15:06
destroyed the country instead of saving it. OF: Right, this is 慈禧 [Cíxǐ], right?
15:13
CC: Yes. OF: Do you think you are more like 慈禧
15:16
[Cíxǐ], or more like 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān]? CC: I hope more like 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān]
15:19
but I don't think I'm as wise as her. So… OF: Nice. Do you have a favourite word or
15:26
phrase in Chinese? CC: 苦尽甘来 [Kǔjìn gānlái].
15:29
OF: 苦尽甘来 [Kǔjìn gānlái]. OK, what does that mean?
15:32
CC: That means ‘after suffering comes happiness’. OF: Nice.
15:38
CC: Most peoples lives have this growing experience, learning experience. And they turn into the
15:48
person that they want to be. OF: Right. Is that what happened to you after
15:53
Inferno 2? And then now you are in a place which is much happier?
15:56
CC: Yes. Yes, I think so. OF: 苦尽甘来 [Kǔjìn gānlái]. I'm just
15:59
trying to think, ‘甘 [gān]’? CC: ‘甘 [Gān]' is ‘甘甜 [gāntián]’.
16:03
Sweet. OF: So the sweetness comes after. Yeah, yeah,
16:07
yeah. That makes sense. OK, I'm going to use that.
16:09
CC: OK. OF: What’s your favourite destination within
16:13
China? CC: I like 三亚 [Sānyà], lying on the
16:18
beach. I like 莫干山 [Mògànshān], which is close to nature in the mountains. And I'm
16:24
very interested one day to go to Tibet and 新疆 [Xīnjiāng], which I think is very
16:30
exotic. OF: Yeah. You spent a lot of time in Beijing.
16:34
What do you think about Beijing? CC: It's big. Lots of bands. People are more
16:42
easy. Nice people, very nice people. OF: Right. They're more straightforward, right?
16:47
CC: That’s right. OF: Right. CC: Yeah, like that, yeah. OF: I think people in Shanghai, they have
16:52
a reputation for being a bit more complicated, right? They don't always say what they mean.
16:57
CC: Yeah, that's right. OF: Yeah, I haven't spent enough time in Beijing.
17:02
I still need to do that. So maybe I will ask for your friends next time.
17:06
CC: OK, yeah. OF: If you left China, what would you miss
17:10
the most, and what would you miss the least? CC: I think I would miss the most is… this
17:16
very convenient lifestyle. At 2 o’clock, if you want to buy some beer, you can get
17:24
it delivered in China. Other countries, probably not.
17:27
OF: And have you ever left China? Did you ever go overseas?
17:30
CC: Yeah, I went to Germany. When I was in Germany, I really missed vegetables.
17:36
OF: Because they have a lot of meat in Germany. CC: And I think, for them, potato is a salad.
17:45
OF: Right. Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
17:50
CC: A lot of things can surprise me. Ten years ago, we didn’t even have smartphones. And
17:57
now everybody does. OF: Mmm. This is gonna be an easy one for
18:03
you, what is your favourite place to hang out in Shanghai?
18:06
CC: Well, of course, I hang out at Inferno most of the time.
18:10
OF: And if there was a second choice? CC: I would go to Latina. It's a Brazilian
18:16
Steakhouse buffet. All you can eat. It's a pretty good deal for me.
18:20
OF: Nice. What is the best or worst purchase you have recently made?
18:25
CC: The best thing I bought is probably the drinking horn.
18:28
OF: OK CC: Yeah. OF: Did you buy it on Taobao? CC: No, I got my friend to buy it in America,
18:35
at a place which does those Viking things. OF: Ah, so actually, you can't use that one
18:40
because that wasn't in China. CC: In China OF: Yeah. CC: Oh, I have this… you know like, Chinese
18:47
or Japanese, they have this cat in the shop, and it tries to ask for more money. Yeah,
18:54
instead I have one that gives a middle finger. And we drew some makeup on it and made it
19:01
look like a black metal cat. OF: Oh dear, yeah that sounds pretty cool.
19:07
Did you buy that on Taobao? CC: Yeah, I bought it on Taobao.
19:09
OF: How did you even search for that? CC: I don't know. It just popped out. And
19:13
I saw a cat with a middle finger, and I was like “That looks great.”
19:17
OF: That was designed for you. CC: Yes.
19:20
OF: Next question. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
19:24
CC: So it's two of our regular customers drinking from a horn and doing cheers to each other.
19:32
Yeah. OF: And this was at one of the Viking Nights?
19:35
CC: Yes. OF: Yes, they look the part, I must say. What
19:40
is your go-to song to sing at KTV? CC: Oh, ‘Sweet Child o' Mine’.
19:45
OF: That’s a classic. CC: Yes.
19:48
OF: But you wouldn't call that ‘heavy’, right? That's obviously…
19:51
CC: No, no. But it's pretty enjoyable to sing the song.
19:55
OF: Yeah. And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you use?
20:01
CC: There is a magazine called Painkiller. OF: Painkiller.
20:04
CC: Yeah, it's like a heavy metal magazine. It's still the only one in China. And they
20:10
help the Wacken festival. OF: What's that?
20:14
CC: It's like a German heavy metal festival. They do it once a year, it’s one of the
20:21
biggest heavy metal festival in Europe. OF: OK, so has there been a china band at
20:27
the Wacken festival? CC: Yeah, there have been a lot actually.
20:30
OF: Well, thank you so much, Cassandra. If there was one band, where it's like for beginners,
20:37
which band or which song would you recommend would be a good entry point?
20:41
CC: We have a black metal band in Shanghai. They were founded in 2006, so it’s already
20:51
a 14-year-old band. It's called 惊叫基督 [Jīngjiào jīdū].
20:55
OF: 惊叫基督 [Jīngjiào jīdū]. CC: Yeah, they are basically the best in Shanghai.
21:00
OF: Hmm. Cassandra, the last thing I would ask you before you leave is, out of everyone
21:04
you know in China, who would you recommend that I interview for the next season of Mosaic
21:11
of China? CC: I think one of my best friends, also my
21:14
karate teacher, Telly. OF: Telly. Where’s he from?
21:19
CC: Belgium. OF: OK. I look forward to meeting him. Karate
21:23
in China, that’s an unusual combination. CC: Yeah. I know, right?
21:27
OF: Thank you again, Cassandra. CC: My pleasure.
21:30
[Outro] OF: If you're a metal head, please get in
21:34
touch to berate me about all the questions I didn't think to ask Cassandra. But let me
21:39
try to appease you by inviting you to check out the photos on social media, where you'll
21:44
see Cassandra posing with some very famous international metal bands. There's 'As I Lay
21:49
Dying', 'The Ghost Inside', 'Finntroll', 'Insomnium', 'Equilibrium', 'Suicide Silence' (please don't
21:54
make me say that one again), 'Carcass', 'Harakiri for the Sky', 'Vader', 'Hate', and 'Thy Disease'.
22:05
You can also see Cassandra's Inferno tattoo; her best purchase, the amazing beckoning cat
22:12
that's... definitely not beckoning; her object, the Viking Night T-Shirt, her favourite WeChat
22:19
Sticker; and loads of other photos from events at past and present incarnations of the Inferno
22:24
bar. The biggest connection between Cassandra and Season 01 of the show would be Nini Sum, the
22:31
independent artist from from Episode 16, who also ran rings around me with her coolness.
22:37
They both have a very similar vibe, and they both also mentioned Linkin Park, actually.
22:43
There's a more direct connection with the Chinese comedian Maple Zuo from Season 01
22:48
Episode 02, who also mentioned the story of Wǔ Zétiān [武則天] as her favourite
22:52
China-related fact. When Cassandra mentioned the 清 [Qīng] empress 慈禧 [Cíxǐ], this
22:57
links to the brand naming expert Vladimir Djurovic from Season 02 Episode 13, and his
23:03
story about 老佛爷 [Lǎofóyé] and the Chinese branding of the French company Galleries
23:08
Lafayette. Cassandra would miss vegetables if she left China, which was exactly the same
23:13
answer as Jovana Zhang, the handicrafts designer from Season 02 Episode 08. Cassandra's favourite
23:19
destinations in China were 三亚 (Sānyà) and 莫干山 [Mògànshān], which connects
23:23
her respectively with Emily Madge, the aquarium conservationist from Season 01 Episode 14
23:29
and Sean Harmon, the craft beer business leader from Season 02 Episode 09. And can you believe
23:35
it, Cassandra's go-to song to sing at karaoke was Sweet Child o' Mine by Guns N' Roses,
23:41
which makes it the first song that has been mentioned 3 times on the show. The other two
23:45
times were Lissanthea Taylor, the pain management expert from Season 01 Episode 28, and Louise
23:52
Roy, the childbirth expert from Season 02 Episode 06. So with all that said, even though
23:58
Cassandra represents such a niche interest group, I think she might be the most connected
24:04
piece of the Mosaic so far.
24:07
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. There follows a catch-up
24:13
chat with Yang Yi, the broadcaster from Season 01 Episode 21. And guess what, when I got
24:19
home from the studio after my chat with Yi, I discovered that the recording suddenly cuts
24:24
off halfway. So please enjoy this further example of basic incompetence, and I'll see
24:30
you again next week for some more!
24:36
[Catch-Up Interview] OF: Are we recording?
24:45
YY: Yeah, I'm recording. OF: Is the magic happening?
24:48
YY: Yeah, it's a magic moment. OF: Yi, great to see you.
24:54
YY: Hi, Oscar. Very nice to meet you again. OF: What a year it has been.
24:59
YY: Yes. It’s really… I think it's a very special year. Yes.
25:04
OF: We've had COVID, of course, but then for you, your life has taken a big 180 since we
25:11
did our recording. YY: Yes. OF: When we recorded, you were already a podcaster. But I think you had a day job still in broadcasting?
25:17
YY: Yes. OF: And then since then, you've quit that.
25:21
And we are actually doing our interview in your studio. And it is a beauty. So it's called
25:27
JustPod, your company, right? YY: Yes, JustPod is a podcasting company.
25:31
And my partner is an entrepreneur. So we co-created this company. I quit my television job, and
25:38
the podcast has become my full time job. OF: Congratulations.
25:41
YY: Yeah. Thank you. So since then, it’s been at least one and a half years.
25:46
OF: Tell me about the new lifestyle, then. It's a more entrepreneurial lifestyle, there's
25:51
no salary, you are running on your own wits at this point, right?
25:56
YY: Yes. I have to say, you know, doing your own business is a very difficult problem,
26:02
because I have different roles. I am a producer; I have my own shows under my company; and
26:11
I’m also the co-creator of this company, I'm the COO, the Chief Operating Officer.
26:16
So I have to do a lot of things to handle this company. I need balance. And of course,
26:22
I have a boyfriend this year. So I have three different roles: a creator, a businessman,
26:31
and a boyfriend. I still feel confused at this moment about these things, because I
26:38
like to produce the show, I like to talk to people. At this moment, I think, usually in
26:45
the daytime I'm a businessman. But at night, when I’m alone, I'm a podcaster. So I have
26:54
no phones, I have no meetings. So I think “OK, it's time for me, myself, to edit the
27:00
shows”. But at this point, another issue, my boyfriend.
27:03
OF: The boyfriend. I was going to say… YY: Yeah, he says “Oh, you spend too much
27:08
time at work.” OF: Mmm. That’s when you start to bump into
27:12
your other responsibility. YY: Yes.
27:14
OF: OK. Well, you look calm, even though you're juggling all these things. You look smiley,
27:19
you look happy, so something's going right. YY: Yes, I think it is. I'm very happy at
27:24
this moment. I still feel challenge. Our company has 11 original podcasts.
27:30
OF: Now it's 11, OK. YY: Yeah, it’s still booming this year.
27:33
OF: Well, this is what I wanted to ask, because we had a similar conversation during our interview.
27:37
YY: Yes. OF: And so I wanted to know, what has happened
27:39
in the last year? Has there been one show that was a breakout show? Has there been a
27:44
boom in one particular genre? Tell me what's happened in the last year?
27:48
YY: Yes, of course. I think the year 2020 meant a lot for Chinese podcasting. During
27:54
the pandemic, he had a brand new application for podcasting…
27:58
OF: 小宇宙 [Xiǎoyǔzhòu]. YY: Yes. 小宇宙 [Xiǎoyǔzhòu] in Chinese,
28:00
which means a little cosmos. Yeah. The first localised podcast application in China. So
28:08
it brought a lot of attention, it brought a lot of audience into this area.
28:12
OF: Interesting, because you were the one who told me about that in the run-up to PodFest,
28:18
because you are one of the organisers behind PodFest, that’s where I met you first of
28:22
all. YY: Yes. OF: This is now two, two and a half years ago. You had 小宇宙 [Xiǎoyǔzhòu] as
28:28
your sponsor. YY: Yes. So they're very passionate in this
28:31
area. And they want to more and more customers to know them. So PodFest China is maybe a
28:37
good stage. OF: And just seeing the photos from PodFest…
28:41
Because I was thinking, when we first went to PodFest, it was very much an international
28:45
event, because most of the knowledge about podcasting was from outside of China.
28:49
YY: Yes, and it was more like a salon. OF: Yes. YY: It was in a very small conference room. OF: Yes, it was small. It was half English,
28:57
half Mandarin. YY: Yes. OF: And then this year, it was a full-blown, massive event. And just Chinese. So it shows
29:04
that the domestic market has really gone places. YY: Yes. But of course the pandemic is a reason,
29:09
because it was very difficult to invite foreign guests to China.
29:14
OF: Ah. YY: So yeah, but you're right. Podcasting
29:18
in China is booming this year, so more and more people become podcasters, more and more
29:22
people become listeners. So we already had enough topics to talk about.
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