0:02

[Trailer] L: The trick… I mean it sounds obvious, but the trick is just: stay legal.

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[Intro] OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast

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about people who are making their mark in China.

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I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.

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We as people are all connected.

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Emotionally, societally, globally, whichever way you look at it.

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It’s one of the key aspects to Mosaic of China, I want this project to be a weekly

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reminder of this kind of grand interconnectivity of people and things.

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So since we’re talking about being emotionally tied, why not have an episode about being

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emotionally tied? The themes of today’s show are community, self-expression, and consent.

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As a society we’ve been talking more about the concept of consent in recent years.

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So I wanted to talk to a practitioner for whom consent is so important that getting

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it wrong might even lead to serious injury.

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There are certain letters of the alphabet that we skirt around, such as B, and then

1:05

there’s D, and later you might find an S, and then how about M as well?

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So if you’re wondering at any point during today’s show “Wait, what are we talking

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about here?” or “Why didn’t you ask this question?”

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I probably did! It’s just in the full-length PREMIUM version of the episode, rather than this regular version.

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So if you want the full story, let me remind you right from the start to head to the Mosaic

1:30

of China website for all the details on how to subscribe.

1:35

With that having been said, I’m going to give you a few seconds to decide whether you

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would prefer to skip this episode. OK, do I have your consent to continue?

1:43

Good, then let’s proceed.

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And you can say ‘No’ and stop at any time.

1:48

[Part 1] OF: Thank you so much for coming, Davide.

1:53

L: Thank you for inviting me. OF: My pleasure.

1:56

For the purpose of this conversation, I'm going to call you by the name which you're

2:00

known for, which is Laodai.

2:02

L: Exactly. OF: And can you explain what 老戴 [Lǎodài] means?

2:07

L: I have no idea, honestly.

2:10

It means like ‘wearing’. OF: Like to put on glasses, to put on a scarf, it’s to wear…

2:16

L: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically, people in the community started calling me this, probably because of my name.

2:22

OF: Ah, because it sounds like your real name.

2:24

L: Right. ‘Dai-vide,’ something like that.

2:27

And then I’ve stuck with it. OF: Yeah.

2:29

L: It’s easy. OF: It's common to be known as ‘老 [Lǎo]’-something-something, right?

2:32

L: Exactly. OF: So it shows that you are in some way venerated.

2:35

I'm glad that somebody gave you that name, and you didn't give it to yourself.

2:38

L: Oh yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t.

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And the character is very complicated, so I really cannot write it.

2:44

OF: Well if there's one 汉字 [hànzì] you should learn, I guess it should be that one.

2:48

Come on. L: Probably.

2:50

OF: Well, we are not yet giving away any clues as to what you do.

2:55

But maybe the next question I ask will be a clue.

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Tell me, what object did you bring that in some way represents your life here in China?

3:04

L: I think it will be more than a hint.

3:07

OF: OK. L: So I brought a seven-metre hemp rope.

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I want to be specific about the material, because it will be important.

3:16

OF: OK. I should ask, why should you be specific about the material?

3:22

L: Because basically - I think I’ll go straight to the point - I use it to tie up people.

3:30

Because I'm rope artist. OF: Got it.

3:34

Well I know that, because the reason I know you is because I went to the 40th birthday

3:39

party of a mutual friend of ours - ciao, Alberto - and you were doing a show there, which you

3:46

could call a ‘rope show’. Why don't you talk through what I saw at that party.

3:52

L: That's what I do, basically.

3:54

It’s very hard to explain if you haven’t seen it.

3:57

It’s a mix between art and emotional connection and mutual trust, where there are two people

4:06

playing around with ropes. Basically it’s me tying my model in an emotional way, and you can create a kind of performance.

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OF: Right. Yes, that was what I experienced as an audience member.

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And not expecting it, I was quite shocked.

4:23

Where to start? I mean, you did say that it needed to be hemp.

4:27

Is that because that's comfortable on skin, is it?

4:30

L: Actually, because it's uncomfortable on skin.

4:33

OF: Oh. L: Compared to cotton or other materials.

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But the main reason is, cotton is more elastic, it can stretch more.

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Hemp stays steel, and you can create that tension that really restricts people.

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The thing was born to be uncomfortable, it’s about the enjoyment to be restricted - to

4:57

be submitted, we can say - and the enjoyment to submit and control somebody else.

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Consensually. So if it’s comfortable, it doesn't really make too much sense for me.

5:10

OF: Yeah, that's not the point.

5:13

L: Yes. OF: You said that it was a Japanese art form.

5:17

What is that, then? Let's start at the basics.

5:19

L: It's a very complicated question, because it’s a lots of things together.

5:23

OF: Yeah. L: So it's basically an art form born in Japan, But everybody who practices this art develops

5:31

his own style and his own way to do it.

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So it's a very personal thing, and everybody has his own personal definition.

5:41

If you want to hear mine… OF: Yeah. L: I focus more on the emotional side of the thing.

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Because I think you can only achieve the real beauty of the performance if you share deep

5:54

emotion, and if you find a deep connection with the model.

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I started for the artistic side of it, because I'm an artist also.

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And I thought at the very beginning that it was only about the pattern of the ropes.

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OF: Right. L: I discovered, through the process and the years, that beauty - the beauty I was looking

6:14

for - is achievable through the emotional connection.

6:18

OF: OK, so when you're talking about the rope side, we're talking about the beauty of knots?

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Is that what you mean? L: That's a component.

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No, it’s the beauty of the whole final result.

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The knots, the pattern, the posture, the model’s expression.

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And also the feelings that come out from the performance.

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It’s more about a dance, and they need to dance with passion.

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And then you say “Oh, they're very good. I'm crying.”

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Or whatever. OF: Right.

6:54

And is it supposed to be, in that case, an artwork which is set on a stage and for others

6:59

to see? Or is it something which was designed to be private?

7:02

L: I’m not sure, I believe it started as a private activity.

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And when you start to see the beauty of it, they probably started to shoot it.

7:16

There are a lot of pictures. And then they started to make performances.

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I mean, there are a lot of dynamics, it’s not only about beauty, it's also about excitement

7:26

and tension. So some people look for those elements, more than the beauty of the pattern.

7:32

OF: You’ve been doing this for how long now?

7:35

L: I think, six years now.

7:37

OF: So what was your story about how you found out about this?

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L: Yes, the very very first impact was an art exhibition of 荒木 [Araki].

7:47

OF: 荒木 [Araki], that's an artist? L: Yes, he’s a photographer of very erotic pictures, back in the 60s I guess.

7:54

OF: With ropes, or..? L: With ropes, yes.

7:58

I was really kind of obsessed about this.

8:00

Like super super into it.

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And I tried to find out more about this art.

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Now you can find a lot, but before it was very very hard.

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They were very random.

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Some were not the real thing, it’s just more like a decorating pattern.

8:17

So it was quite hard. But I started tying my leg, the basic knot.

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OF: Oh you tied your own leg? L: Yes.

8:24

That's how everybody starts. OF: Aha.

8:26

L: Because it’s practice, you need to get the muscle memory.

8:29

Then I remember, I found in the street this kind of mannequin.

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And I started to tie my first body pattern on the mannequin.

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But that wasn't very effective, because it's very hard plastic.

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And it didn't have any arms or legs, it was just the chest.

8:46

OF: Oh wow, you are a serial killer.

8:49

L: No, no, it was a plastic mannequin.

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It’s useless basically to use a mannequin, because the feeling is completely different,

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and the tension you can put on a human body is very different.

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The rope gets tighter in a different way.

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So I was stuck. To improve more, I had to find a real person.

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OF: Right. L: And I found this girl who is actually still my Japanese business partner.

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And she was my first model, meeting her started the whole process.

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And I was very very lucky, it was like winning the lottery.

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OF: So she actually could teach you, as a teacher almost.

9:28

L: No, no, she doesn’t know a single knot.

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She didn't at the time, now she knows a little.

9:35

Because there are two roles, a ‘rigger’ who ties, and a ‘model.’

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OF: A ‘rigger’, OK. L: Yeah.

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And the model is just being the model, so doesn't really care about the techniques.

9:44

OF: Yes. L: But she taught me a lot in terms of dynamics, and connection, and how the model feels.

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At that stage in my mind was only an art practice, nothing more.

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And she's actually the one that opened to me the concept of the emotional tie, rather

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than the artistic tie.

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OF: Got it. And so she could tell you "Yeah, this feels good”, “No, this is too tight”…

10:10

L: Yeah. More than physical sensations, she was telling me things like “I feel this is a little

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empty, I feel you're focusing more on the knot than me.”

10:20

More, the connection side.

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And then I learned a lot because I realised “OK, I'm not tying for my pleasure, or for

10:27

making something like a sculpture.

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I’m tying for communal pleasure.

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So I don't need to focus on the rope, I need to focus on her.”

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It's about how you tie, and how you touch, and how you give your feelings to the model.

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You can see a lot of shows, it's beautiful choreography but if there's no connection,

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it’s not beautiful emotions coming out.

10:52

OF: Yes, you said choreography. It makes me think almost like figure skating or like ballroom dancing, right?

10:58

Where you see two people, and they're doing an art form.

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But there is a sensuality, and there is this communication between the two people that

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you could describe as being emotional.

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So I can sort of see it through that prism.

11:10

L: Yes. It is.

11:13

The dynamics are very similar.

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Going dancing, tango, salsa night… OF: Yes.

11:17

L: I believe it’s the same dynamic. OF: Yes.

11:21

You said before how this was a process where you were learning, and your model must have

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been very patient as you were going through this learning process.

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Were there any specific mistakes that you made at the beginning?

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L: Mistakes, I think, are part of the learning process.

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As long as you’re learning basic stuff, you just do the wrong knot and then basically

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you redo it. In terms of when you're getting more confident - and you try more difficult and dangerous

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things like suspension - then mistakes usually cause injuries for the model.

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So it's better not to try things that you haven’t practiced a lot.

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But mistakes still happen.

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I’m very glad I’ve never been a rushed learner.

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In my career, I experienced just one injury.

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The most common injury in rope is nerve damage of the arms.

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So if you press a nerve a lot, you damage it, and you cannot use the nerve for a while.

12:24

OF: Like, a week or two, or..?

12:26

L: Yes. Like a dead hand for some days.

12:30

OF: And in that situation, what would have happened?

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That would have been you doing the wrong knot? Or a communication issue between you and the model?

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L: I think the fault was between both of us.

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Because my fault was not being that focused, to notice something was wrong.

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And on the model’s side, she didn't let me know some problem was going on.

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OF: I see. So she was in some discomfort, but didn't know that it was a problem.

12:55

L: Yes. That's why a model is a role, it’s not just a tool.

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So models have to learn about their body, and improve in that role of a model.

13:07

So… OF: Yes.

13:09

They’re learning, just like you're learning. L: Yes, yes.

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I mean, there is no real school of modelling, it’s more about practice.

13:14

OF: Yeah. L: But it is.

13:16

I can tell if I’m tying somebody that has been tied fifty times, compared to somebody

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tied five times. I can tell.

13:23

OF: Aha. L: There is the risk awareness.

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Like everything has, like sports. OF: Yes.

13:29

Which then comes down to consent. L: Yes.

13:31

OF: Because I'm guessing that at each point there is some kind of communication?

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Or do you just get all the consent at the beginning?

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How does that work? L: Consent is the main thing.

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Because it's not only putting rope against the body, it’s about touching the body.

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And it’s about doing things like pulling hair, or grabbing the neck.

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You don't know people’s past, so you don't know if what you’re doing can trigger some

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traumas or something. OF: Aha.

13:58

L: So when you tie somebody, you have to talk beforehand and get consent.

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And when you ask somebody for consent, never ask “Is there something you don't like?”

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Because they cannot think of every possible option you can go through.

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So when you ask for consent, just state everything you would like to do, and get a yes or no.

14:21

OF: Can I tie this arm? Can I… what?

14:24

L: Can I whisper in your ear? Can I squeeze?

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I go through all these things. I mean I'm not that crazy, so I have the 10-15 things I like doing, so I cover all of those

14:35

beforehand. OF: Yeah.

14:37

L: Of course, you can talk to me if something is going wrong, or if there is some problem.

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I mix the consensual questions with play questions.

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Like “I'm going to do this. I know you like it, don’t you?”

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Something like this. And you are free to say “No.”

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If they say “Please please, do it,” or if they say “No, sir”…

14:56

OF: Yes I get it. It's part of the play.

14:58

L: It’s like camouflaging the consent.

15:01

The thing is, in my position - that I do this also, let's say professionally - it happens

15:07

a lot that a complete stranger will ask me to get tied in public or privately.

15:12

So my risk awareness is very high.

15:14

OF: Yeah so talk me through then, how would you do your art in that situation?

15:19

Versus someone who, let's say, you've worked with for many years?

15:22

L: When I do sessions… Some people pay me to get tied.

15:25

OF: Yeah. L: Those are called ‘sessions.’

15:27

I'm really clear at the beginning, I cover all those discussions.

15:31

And I'm very safe.

15:33

I don't do too much, even if I maybe want to.

15:36

OF: Yeah. L: Also I do a little test, that they don't realise is a test.

15:42

Because it's in my beginning routine, when I tie somebody.

15:46

I usually sit behind them, and I push my fist against their chest, towards me.

15:53

If they abandon themselves completely, I can understand they're more submissive.

15:58

If they push against me, I can understand they're not very comfortable or they don't

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trust me. OF: Ah.

16:04

L: So I change the flow of the rope, based on these little things.

16:08

OF: Yes. L: And also I squeeze the rope very hard.

16:11

That allows me to understand the level of pain they can take, and then I understand

16:16

what I can do and what I cannot do.

16:19

OF: Yes, this is what comes from experience, right? L: Yeah.

16:21

OF: If you are a new model, it might be good to try and find a more experienced rigger.

16:28

Or is it actually nicer for inexperienced riggers and models to learn together?

16:32

L: It depends what you want to achieve.

16:34

If you're a couple and you want to achieve connection, me tying her doesn't really make

16:40

sense. It’s better that he learns.

16:42

OF: Right. Well, you were saying about your main model.

16:46

She was well connected with the scene in Japan.

16:48

Why don't we talk then about China? We're here in China.

16:51

You've been doing this now personally and professionally for a few years.

16:54

So how did that happen for you here in China?

16:57

L: It’s about ‘setting the line’.

17:01

And then when you set the line, you can do everything below that line.

17:04

OF: I see. L: The line in China is lower than Japan, or lower than Europe.

17:09

But it’s just about that.

17:11

So I came back, and I started to inform myself about communities in China.

17:18

I found a guy, and became friends with him.

17:22

So I said “Let's try to do a party.”

17:25

So basically the next month after that, we made the first public rope event in China.

17:31

Me and this guy, 2017, at Roxie.

17:35

And everybody was telling me “Why are you doing this?

17:38

Nobody will come.” But we did it, and forty people came.

17:43

And it was quite good, some easy suspension.

17:46

L: And then I started to do it every month.

17:48

More and more people started to come.

17:51

Every part of the community, like latex, canine.

17:53

OF: Oh. L: Everything.

17:55

OF: Yes. L: The trick…

17:57

I mean it sounds obvious, but the trick is just: stay legal.

18:01

We are teaching rope art. We set the line, and we don't go over that line.

18:06

So no real pain, no scars. OF: Yeah.

18:08

L: And we built, basically, the public community from that.

18:12

I'm still learning - you never stop learning - so I'm still going to Japan to meet masters.

18:18

But it's very expensive.

18:21

So then I got this other idea after a while.

18:25

Rather than go there and pay for lessons, what if I invite masters to China?

18:29

OF: Yes. That's a win/win.

18:31

L: Yes. So I did that, thanks to my model who now became my business partner at this stage.

18:37

OF: Right. L: Japanese trust Japanese.

18:40

So we were able to invite very big names, and make the first ever workshop from Japanese

18:47

people in China. Actually everybody who was interested in rope traveled from their city to my house.

18:53

OF: From all over China? L: Kind of.

18:56

From 天津 [Tiānjīn], 长沙 [Chángshā], 深圳 [Shēnzhèn]…

19:00

Because it was a very unique opportunity. OF: Yes.

19:02

L: Otherwise you have to go to Japan and pay much more.

19:06

So they came to my workshop.

19:09

And they started to spread the knowledge in their own cities.

19:13

So more communities grew, and they started to - I will say ‘be inspired.’

19:19

I don't want to say ‘copy.’

19:22

- they started to be inspired by my activities, and they started to make public rope parties.

19:27

They started inviting people from Japan, from Europe, to teach their workshops.

19:34

And it was quite surprising, and they get some success before COVID.

19:38

COVID stopped everything, mostly.

19:40

Now - compared to just five years ago - it’s a completely different level of acceptance.

19:47

If you look for it, every week in Shanghai, there is a workshop.

19:50

OF: Really? L: There are different kinds, I'm not the only one.

19:53

Different teachers who are teaching their way, some are more spiritual, some more traditional.

20:01

Yoga studios started to have their own rope art schedule.

20:04

OF: You're kidding. L: No no, it’s true, it’s true.

20:06

OF: Oh god. L: Yoga studios are expanding to include some workshops.

20:10

OF: OK. L: I mean, if you think about silk yoga, aerial yoga…

20:14

OF: Oh. L: Technically it’s not that different.

20:17

OF: It's interesting. Yeah.

20:19

L: Technically. OF: How, then, is your status in China now?

20:22

Like, are you well known here? L: Yeah, it’s also surprising.

20:26

There are people - who don't even know my face - who come to my event.

20:30

And somebody calls me ‘Laodai,’ and then suddenly everybody realises that’s me.

20:35

And they start to come, asking for pictures or sharing WeChat.

20:41

And actually now I'm going on tour. OF: Really?

20:43

L: Yes, I go to 深圳 [Shēnzhèn], 长沙 [Chángshā], and 成都 [Chéngdū].

20:47

OF: To do these workshops, right? L: Workshops, yes.

20:49

And performances. OF: Let me end this part of the conversation by going more into your personal story again.

20:56

L: In my experience.

20:58

I really tie a lot of different people, men and women.

21:02

And I learn my reaction to different people.

21:05

And I learn there is a ‘rope love’ that is different to romantic love with a partner.

21:12

How I explain this usually is, you have to think about the different loves you experience.

21:17

In English, you use one word.

21:19

The love to your mother is different, but you still call it ‘love’.

21:24

Love towards your friends is another kind of love.

21:27

Towards your life partner is another kind of love.

21:31

So there is also the rope love.

21:33

OF: How do you talk about that with your potential romantic partners?

21:37

L: I'm very honest, because it causes lots of troubles.

21:41

OF: Yes. L: So basically when I meet somebody, it’s the third answer I give.

21:47

Like, what's your name? Where you from?

21:49

And what you do? I say it then.

21:52

OF: Yes. But then don't you scare people off very quickly, if you…

21:54

L: I do. I do.

21:56

OF: Yeah. L: But it easier.

21:58

Because if they found out after, it will be much harder to explain.

22:04

And actually saying it honestly and kindly, it makes it sound more normal than what they

22:11

probably imagine. They don't feel it’s something I want to keep hidden, or I am ashamed to tell.

22:18

OF: Yes. It is interesting.

22:20

I mean, I don't know what the right answer would be.

22:23

Because you immediately talk on the first date.

22:25

On the third question, you say. I might then judge you as like “Ach, this is someone who doesn't have the right kind

22:30

of boundaries, doesn't really know how to talk in a natural way.”

22:34

Like, why should you bomb me with that information too soon?

22:36

You know, because it could be a situation where I get to know you; I like you; and then

22:40

on the fifth date you realise “Oh, this guy is into philosophy.”

22:43

L: Yeah. OF: Or “This guy's into skateboarding.”

22:45

It could be something a little less upfront, right?

22:48

L: It happened that I shock people and they judge very very hard.

22:52

Honestly, I don't say it, I'm just answering questions.

22:58

When they ask me “So what do you do for a living?”

23:00

or "What else do you do?” to not say so would be lying.

23:03

OF: Yeah, because this is your full-time gig really, now.

23:05

L: Kind of, yes. OF: This is it.

23:07

It would be weird to not mention it. L: Yes.

23:10

OF: Yes. So how do you define yourself now?

23:13

L: I can define myself as a 'Care Dom’ OF: ‘Care Dom’?

23:17

L: Yes, it’s a thing.

23:19

So basically ‘dom’ means the dominant part.

23:22

But basically, I do that to serve the person I submit.

23:27

So technically I take control, but to give them enjoyment.

23:32

I like to give pleasure to people.

23:35

OF: Yeah. This is a nice way to end the conversation, I think.

23:39

Because it's intimidating. I mean, you look at the ropes, and it is intimidating.

23:43

But then talking to you, you do get the sensuality, you do get the ideas that we're talking about.

23:48

It's about empathy, it’s about empowerment, it's about that connection between you and

23:52

the other person, right? L: It's true.

23:55

Honestly I have to say, most of the best people I meet are in the community.

24:00

They really care about respect and trust, and they don't have this social limit.

24:07

So it's easier to find good people in the community than outside.

24:12

Of course, there are still predatory people that do consent-breaking behaviour.

24:20

But the majority are very nice people.

24:23

I would more trust somebody dressed in latex than somebody dressed with a tie.

24:28

OF: Well said. And I'm glad you also mentioned the dangers too.

24:32

I think everyone needs to be open-eyed about that.

24:34

L: Yes. OF: It’s not a world of rainbows and marshmallows.

24:37

L: No, the first thing - the very first thing - is consent.

24:40

There is a very nice video, about how consent is like a cup of tea.

24:44

OF: I've seen it. L: Yeah.

24:46

OF: If I can post that somehow, I will, as part of this episode.

24:50

Thanks so much, Laodai. L: Thank you, thank you.

24:52

OF: We're going to move on to Part 2.

24:54

L: OK. [Part 2] OF: OK, now we move on to the 10 questions.

25:02

Are you nervous about these? L: No.

25:05

OF: OK. Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily: What is your favourite China-related fact?

25:12

L: I really like watching people dancing in the park.

25:16

OF: Oh right. L: That’s cool.

25:18

It's very genuine. Maybe you have a hard life, hard work.

25:23

And then you just go dancing with other people, and enjoy.

25:27

And then you go home. It’s a very nice activity.

25:30

For years I believed there was some sort of competition, like the Olympics.

25:35

OF: Oh! L: Yeah.

25:37

They made a team and they compete in a challenge at the end of the year.

25:40

OF: There might be, I don't even know.

25:43

L: I don't know. I don't think so, I think it's only exercising.

25:47

OF: Nice. Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in

25:53

Chinese? L: It’s one of the first things I learned.

25:57

I like 不客气 [bùkèqì]. OF: Oh, 不客气 [bùkèqì].

26:00

L: It’s ‘you're welcome’. Because in Italian, you say ‘boccuccia’ when you do, like, the kiss shape of the mouth.

26:08

So 不客气 [bùkèqì] sticks in my mind.

26:11

OF: So it sounds like that. L: Yes, ‘boccuccia’ OF: 不客气 [bùkèqì], boccuccia.

26:16

L: Yes. OF: Classic.

26:19

Question 3, which comes from naked Retreats: What’s your favourite destination within

26:23

China? L: I've travelled a little.

26:25

I like places without too many people.

26:28

So I was impressed by 张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè].

26:31

OF: 张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè]. L: 张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè], because it's very unique.

26:34

It seems fake, like a movie set.

26:36

OF: Well, it's famously… L: Avatar.

26:38

OF: Yeah. L: They shot Avatar there for a reason.

26:41

So that they could save money, rather than build a planet.

26:45

OF: OK, next question. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?

26:50

L: I think I will miss, if you have an idea, you can do it.

26:54

And then it can be regulated afterwards. OF: Yes.

26:57

L: This, I really like. OF: That's exactly how it works, right?

27:00

Because people think it's just the rules.

27:02

But you can do quite a lot until you hit your head on the rules, right?

27:07

L: Yes, yes. I come from Italy, that is one of the worst countries in this regard.

27:11

OF: There’s a lot of red tape in Italy.

27:13

L: Yes. And the worst thing…

27:15

OF: The thing that you would miss the least, yes. L: I don't want to be offensive, but I really hate when people chew very loud.

27:23

OF: Yes. Oh dear.

27:26

L: I usually don't judge anything, with people's behaviour.

27:30

This, I know is a small thing. But it really annoys me.

27:33

It’s automatic annoyance. OF: I find it very hard.

27:37

They can be on the other side of the restaurant.

27:39

L: Yes, yes. I really hate it.

27:42

OF: I think it's just impatient white men.

27:44

L: Maybe. OF: Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?

27:49

L: No, I would say no.

27:52

Oh actually it did.

27:54

Actually I remember this right now. People have started walking with robot dogs.

27:58

I’ve seen already four people doing it. OF: Oh.

28:01

L: It’s a robot dog. And they’re walking the robot dog.

28:04

So there's no sense in anything.

28:06

OF: Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to

28:12

eat, or drink, or just hang out? L: Mokkos.

28:14

You know Mokkos? OF: No.

28:16

L: Mokkos: M-O-K-K-OS. There are two, one is on the road and one is in a compound.

28:22

I like the one in the compound. It’s a kind of Japanese concept bar.

28:27

You can only order bottles, and then they save your bottle, and if you go five years

28:32

later your bottle is still there with your name.

28:34

And if you finish that bottle, they ask you if you want a new bottle or if you want to

28:40

refill that bottle. And then you can keep the exactly same bottle for years.

28:45

And every time you refill, they gave you a little badge.

28:49

So there are these very ancient bottles full of badges, and you can see that people get

28:53

drunk a lot. OF: Yes.

28:55

L: I like this. And it's very quiet.

28:57

OF: Yes, you have these places in Japan a lot.

29:00

L: Yeah, yeah. OF: And it's usually whiskey bars.

29:02

I've never heard of that here yet. L: Yes.

29:04

OF: Mokkos. OK, I'll check it out.

29:06

But it sounds like you can't just go in there casually, you have to be like… L: No, you can, you can, you can.

29:10

OF: OK. Thank you.

29:12

You see, you can live in a place for eight years and still be learning new things like

29:16

this. I presume it's been around for a while.

29:18

L: Me too. OF: Yeah.

29:20

Next question, what is the best or worst purchase you made in China?

29:24

L: The best purchase is this jar that purifies tap water.

29:29

OF: Ah. L: That changed my life, because I was upset so many times when you finish your bottle

29:35

of water and you're still thirsty, and you have to go out to buy water.

29:39

OF: You're saying it's a jar, so hang on… L: It’s a jar with a filter.

29:41

You just fill it with water, and it purifies it.

29:44

The filter is inside. OF: Yes.

29:46

Got it. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?

29:49

L: I’m sending it to you.

29:51

OF: OK what's going on here?

29:53

Can you describe this? L: I don't know if there is a meaning, but I find it very fun.

29:59

So there's Jesus, he tried to jump in the pool.

30:03

And he cannot because… Jesus walks on water.

30:07

And then there's this other guy from another famous painting who looks surprised, I guess.

30:13

OF: I love this.

30:16

I've never seen it. I guess only an Italian would send this.

30:19

L: Maybe. It probably came from another Italian.

30:21

OF: Thank you.

30:23

Next question, what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?

30:27

L: I'm quite upset with KTV in China because they don't have Italian songs.

30:32

OF: Not many, right? I've heard ‘Volare.’

30:34

L: Ah yes. That makes me more upset.

30:36

OF: Me too. I went out with some Italians one time, and we literally had to have that three times

30:40

because… L: No, no.

30:42

I would never sing that, because it's stereotypical. So I sing very few songs.

30:46

One is ‘Bohemian Rhapsody’, I go for it.

30:49

OF: Oh god. L: Then I sing ‘Give a Little Bit’.

30:53

OF: ‘Give a Little Bit’, that one. L: Yes, exactly.

30:55

I basically sing two songs. OF: There’s not even a third?

30:58

L: Maybe ‘Common People’ by Pulp.

31:01

OF: Oh, now that speaks to me.

31:04

Are we the same age, how old are you? L: 42.

31:07

OF: I'm 44, yeah. L: Next week is my birthday.

31:09

OF: Ah, tanti auguri. L: Grazie OF: Yeah, that was my generation.

31:13

L: Yeah but you know, I’m not English.

31:16

So I focus on reading too much.

31:19

I don't focus on enjoying it. OF: Oh.

31:21

L: In Italian, I can express more craziness.

31:24

OF: Well this is a problem with 'Common People’ because there are a lot of words.

31:28

L: Yeah. But that I know.

31:30

I memorised that. OF: And finally, what or who is your biggest source of inspiration in China?

31:35

L: I have a couple of friends that inspire me, and motivated me to get better.

31:41

But some people give me inspiration not to be like them.

31:45

Inverse inspiration. People who are happy with very material things.

31:50

So when I see these people, I'm glad I took the path that I did.

31:54

OF: Even though it's more difficult. L: Yes, yes.

31:56

I quit my job, I’m struggling, but I'm more happy.

32:01

OF: I look forward to seeing how things progress in the future for you.

32:06

Thank you so much for sharing your story. L: Thank you for listening.

32:09

OF: Well, it was enlightening.

32:11

And I hope that other people listening would have also experienced the same thing.

32:15

Before you leave, out of everyone you know in China, who would you recommend that I interview

32:20

in the next season of Mosaic of China?

32:23

L: So there's my friend Shreni.

32:26

She's American, from India.

32:30

And she's very spiritual, and she started a career helping people through breathwork.

32:37

OF: Breathwork. Breathing properly.

32:39

L: Yeah, yeah. It’s like, your emotions and your state are very influenced by your breathing.

32:46

OF: I understand that completely.

32:48

I feel like I have a very shallow breathing pattern.

32:52

So I'm looking forward to meeting Shreni. L: Yes.

32:55

She is the best. OF: Well thank you so much Laodai.

32:58

L: Thank you. 谢谢 [Xièxiè].

33:00

OF: 谢谢 [Xièxiè]. [Outro] OF: Well, I did it, I managed to finish off

33:05

the massive editing job that was this episode.

33:08

There’s an extra 20 minutes of Laodai’s story available on the PREMIUM version of

33:13

the show, head to the website to subscribe.

33:16

Even finding and editing clips for you to hear was a monumental effort this week, but

33:21

here’s what I managed to include: [Clip 1] L: Then I said “Oh this thing could have lots of potential.”

33:26

And then we broke up, for completely different reasons.

33:29

[Clip 2] OF: It’s like “What, can no-one hear this?

33:32

How can this be happening?” [Clip 3] L: If you stick with one master, he won’t

33:34

allow you to learn a different style. OF: Yes.

33:36

[Clip 4] L: Going to that festival helped me to quit the job.

33:38

OF: Aha. [Clip 5] L: The Western view of it versus the Japanese

33:47

reality. OF: Trying to imbue more meaning onto something than actually there is, right?

33:51

L: Yes. [Clip 6] L: I found myself being like ‘under the

33:55

power of the rope’. Losing control quite easily, and maybe doing things that can break a relationship.

34:02

[Clip 7] L: It’s called 本結び [hon musubi]: ‘single

34:05

column tie.’ OF: A ‘single column tie.’

34:07

L: Yes, because the arm or the leg is a ‘column’.

34:10

[Clip 8] L: Genuine expressions.

34:12

Can be pain, or can be struggle, or happiness.

34:15

[Clip 9] L: A complete failure.

34:17

They would say “What, are you crazy?

34:19

Why did you ask me this?” [Clip 10] L: So like when you tie your shoes, you never

34:23

think “Oh, I need to put this under this, and then make a loop, and then pull.”

34:26

[Clip 11] OF: You don't want to shock someone, right? L: This is the worst thing you can do, actually surprise somebody with something like that.

34:33

[End of Audio Clips] Thanks once again to Laodai for sharing his story with us.

34:37

I’ve included a selection of photos on the website and on social media, so do a search

34:42

for mosaicofchina or oscology on all the usual platforms - both in China and internationally

34:48

- and you should find them there.

34:51

For obvious reasons, we focused our conversation very much on the performance art side of his

34:56

life. But when it comes to the lifestyle and the philosophy behind this esoteric art form - the

35:03

‘Davide’ behind the ‘Laodai’ - there’s something all of us can take away in terms

35:07

of making us think about how we relate to - and communicate with - our most intimate

35:11

partners. And making us think is what art’s all about after all, which is why I try to include artists

35:18

of all description in the Mosaic of China.

35:21

If you want to hear similar episodes that cover big ideas in the guise of performance

35:25

art in China, then take a listen in particular to ‘Cocosanti’, the drag artist from Season

35:31

02 Episode 05; or Björn Dahlman, the professional clown from Season 02 Episode 17; or Zhang

35:38

Yuan, the performance art curator from Season 02 Episode 07.

35:43

Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell.

35:47

These days I always include at least one catch-up conversation from a previous episode after

35:52

the closing music, and today is no exception, you will hear from the podcaster Yang Yi from

35:57

Season 01 Episode 21. But you will notice that it’s quite short.

36:02

That’s because when Yang Yi and I caught up, we spoke a lot about his experience appearing

36:07

as a guest on This American Life earlier in the year.

36:11

I didn’t want this story to compete with Laodai’s story, so I’ve taken that part

36:16

out and made it into its own PREMIUM-only minisode.

36:20

I’ll be releasing that on Friday, so there’s yet another reason that you really should

36:25

be subscribed by now.

36:27

And we’ll be back with another full episode from Season 03 next week.

36:33

[Catch-Up Interview] OF: Hey Yang Yi.

36:43

YY: Hey Oscar. OF: It's always a pleasure to see you.

36:47

But out of every one from Season 01, which is now two seasons ago…

36:51

YY: Yes. OF: …I think I have seen you probably the most.

36:54

YY: Oh, really? OF: And there is an obvious reason for that, because I have been using your studio…

37:01

YY: Oh yeah. OF: …To record Season 03.

37:03

YY: Yes, yes. OF: And so I want to say officially, thank you so much for your help in getting me set

37:09

up for Season 03. I lost access to my previous studio, and I was asking around, and then you just said

37:13

one day “Hey, just use my studio”.

37:16

And I was like “Perfect. I love you.”

37:18

YY: You’re welcome. OF: Thank you man, I appreciate that very much.

37:21

You, you have had many more changes since Season 01.

37:25

YY: Yes. OF: We did a catch-up in Season 02, and at that point you had already quit your broadcasting

37:31

job, and you had gone full-time into your podcasting career.

37:34

YY: Yes. OF: You had 11 podcasts.

37:37

So what is the situation with your company today?

37:39

YY: For original podcasts we now have twenty.

37:43

OF: Twenty. YY: Yes.

37:45

And with another twenty branded podcasts.

37:47

We help companies to produce their own shows.

37:50

OF: Right. YY: Yeah.

37:52

OF: So do you offer the editing support, the production support…

37:55

YY: Consulting support.

37:57

Because they have no audio strategy.

37:59

Maybe they were very familiar with Tiktok or social media, but they don't know audio.

38:04

So the first thing is consulting.

38:07

Audio is a very fresh thing.

38:09

You know, in many people's minds, when they talk about audio, the first thing come to

38:14

their minds is music. And then it's audiobooks.

38:17

And then it’s education. So what is podcasting?

38:21

For them, maybe this think “Oh, it's a personal radio station.

38:24

Or an audio blog.” They don't have the sense of what it is.

38:28

I need to tell them that a podcast is a show.

38:32

And the show is not personal, it’s a show, just like you watch on television.

38:39

It means well-educated tier, younger generation, the people who live in big cities, active

38:46

in business, in consuming, something like that.

38:49

So I need to, you know, draw a picture.

38:52

And now it is not the mass-communication era.

38:56

People exist in very small groups. OF: Yeah.

38:59

YY: So you need to find your target audience…

39:02

OF: Yes. YY: …And match them very efficiently.

39:04

OF: Well, that's always been my problem with Mosaic of China, because I can't focus in

39:09

on one particular thing, that’s my problem.

39:12

YY: Ah. OF: But it is a diverse place.

39:14

And that makes me ask you then, so where do you see the trends in podcasting right now?

39:19

YY: OK, for original shows and branded podcasts, it’s very different.

39:23

So for the branded podcasts, I would tell my clients the key word is ‘differentiate.’

39:28

You need to do something separate from other shows, and show the things you're really good

39:33

at. Podcast listeners, they will think “Oh, you are an expert in this field.”

39:38

They will trust you. And they will become your listeners, even if the didn't know this field before.

39:44

OF: And in terms of your shows then, why would it be different?

39:47

You obviously need to differentiate your shows too, no?

39:50

YY: Yes, but for original shows, maybe we have 5-10 different topics or genres we could

39:56

do. So we need to choose.

39:59

So we need to research the marketing. OF: Yes.

40:02

YY: We need to, you know, put the shows in that space.

40:04

OF: Well, I am sure next time we catch up, you will have more and more and more.

40:10

Are you going to do an English language podcast at some point?

40:14

YY: Oh, yes. Maybe I will invite you to contribute some stories, something like that.

40:20

OF: Very good. YY: Yes.

40:22

OF: I am sure, when you do it, it will be great.

40:25

I'm sure it'll be better than mine as well, so…

40:28

I wish you luck. Thank you so much for being part of this project.

40:33

You were the co-organiser of the first PodFest, which was a conference where I met you and

40:38

many other podcasting people in Shanghai.

40:40

YY: Yeah. OF: And you've really been with me in my journey since that day.

40:45

And I hope that we will continue to stay in touch.

40:47

YY: Yes, of course. Thank you.