0:00

I didn't like the Red

0:00

Hot Chili Peppers.

0:02

Really? Why?

0:03

Well, when I was

0:03

interviewing them before the

0:06

interview, we warned them you

0:06

know this is live. So try to

0:11

keep your swearing to a minimum.

0:20

Welcome to the

0:20

mostly money podcast with your

0:24

host, Preet Banerjee. This is mostly money and I'm

0:29

your host Preet Banerjee. And on

0:32

the show today I'll be speaking

0:32

with Canadian royalty. Erica

0:37

Ehm, was one of the first

0:37

muchmusic VJs, who spent 10

0:41

years captivating and

0:41

influencing young Canadians,

0:45

young Canadians then who today

0:45

are my age. And every time I

0:51

mentioned that, Hey, I know

0:51

Erica M. Without a single

0:54

exception, every single one of

0:54

them physically grabs my arm,

0:58

and tells me how they were madly

0:58

in love with her. 15 years ago,

1:03

she founded Yummy Mummy club

1:03

which connects brands with

1:06

Canadian moms. In 2012, she

1:06

became a pioneer yet again, in

1:11

branded content and social

1:11

engagement with the launch of m

1:14

and Co. More recently, she

1:14

launched a new podcast called

1:18

reinvention of the vj, which

1:18

includes interviews with much

1:22

music DJs, like George

1:22

Stroumboulopoulos, Rick the

1:25

temp, Amanda Walsh, and many

1:25

more. And I came to know her

1:29

from crossing paths on the

1:29

professional speaking world. And

1:33

I'm so delighted to have Eric on

1:33

the show today, and our theme

1:36

will be re invention because

1:36

she's absolutely an authority on

1:40

it. And because it's something

1:40

so many people are grappling

1:43

with right now, both personally

1:43

and professionally. So you're

1:47

the perfect guest at the perfect

1:47

time. Erica, welcome to the

1:50

show.

1:51

And you're the

1:51

perfect host. So this is gonna

1:53

be the perfect show.

1:54

You can't say something like that, because I do not have the background to

1:56

justify that praise. But I'll

1:59

take it. I'll take it.

2:00

I'm sure you will.

2:02

Now I want to I want to talk about your new podcast, obviously reinvention

2:04

of the VJ because as I said,

2:07

reinvention is such a strong

2:07

theme and people's lives right

2:11

now. But before we do that,

2:11

let's talk a little bit about

2:14

how the VJ was invented in the

2:14

first place. How did you get

2:19

that gig but as because it

2:19

wasn't like something where,

2:21

hey, we're looking for people

2:21

with experience as VJs for

2:25

music, television that didn't

2:25

exist you you define that genre.

2:29

So how did that happen? in the

2:29

first place?

2:32

Well, like most

2:32

things, it takes a lot of effort

2:35

behind the scenes, everyone

2:35

thinks, Oh, you know, I think a

2:39

lot of people think I slept with

2:39

my boss, or one of the bosses,

2:43

honestly, oh, there's, there's a

2:43

full conspiracy theory about

2:47

that. But the real story is when

2:47

I was 16 years old, I had

2:52

already decided I was going to

2:52

work in the music business, and

2:56

managed to get on the radio at

2:56

ShowMe FM to be interviewed when

3:00

I was 16. Or no, I think I was

3:00

17 at that point. And so I I

3:04

spotted who the program director

3:04

was at ShowMe FM. And when I

3:10

went to see the cars concert at

3:10

the Montreal forum, decked out

3:13

in the latest and greatest New

3:13

Wave outfit, I marched up to him

3:19

Hi, Rob rate, can I have a job

3:19

at shome. And he looked at me

3:23

and he said, this is actually

3:23

time for me to be watching a

3:26

band. But if you would like to

3:26

call my assistant, we can talk

3:30

about it. So I frickin showed up

3:30

at ShowMe FM when I was 17 years

3:34

old, and asked him for a full

3:34

time job at show with them. And

3:38

guess what he said?

3:40

Of course, he would say yes to you. How could you say no to you?

3:42

He said no. Oh. He

3:42

said, Listen, you're still in

3:47

school. You can't work here full

3:47

time. But if you'd like, you can

3:53

be my music librarian. What that

3:53

means is you can have access to

3:57

the radio station at any time.

3:57

Your job would be to organize

4:02

all the albums that weren't even

4:02

CDs at the time, and keep all

4:05

the records organized. And you

4:05

get to be here and you get to

4:09

experience what it is to work at

4:09

a radio station. Of course, I

4:13

said yes. And all the kids at CJ

4:13

app where I was at school. Is it

4:18

like how did you get the job?

4:18

Because it was big news, right?

4:20

It was it's the biggest rock

4:20

radio station. And guess what I

4:24

told them? I asked seriously,

4:24

that's my theme. And you're

4:29

gonna see this reinvention theme

4:29

and I asked as sort of a

4:33

partnership in approach to life

4:33

really. So when I was already

4:39

working at the at the radio

4:39

station, I started working in

4:43

clubs, DJing and punk bars. I

4:43

was working at ama and Sam the

4:48

record man, I was managing

4:48

bands. I was immersed in the

4:53

music business. And then I got a

4:53

job. Sorry, I didn't get a job.

4:56

Then I went to University of

4:56

Ottawa and I did my degree in

5:00

communications and right before

5:00

I ended my time at university, I

5:06

called up city TV and begged for

5:06

a job at the new music. Moses

5:11

nightmare happened to be coming

5:11

to town for a CRTC hearing

5:15

coming from Toronto to Ottawa.

5:15

And he agreed to meet me. And I

5:19

talked his ear off about my

5:19

passion. I took him to my

5:23

apartment, he saw my all my

5:23

albums, and I was like, I really

5:27

wouldn't shut up. And he agreed

5:27

to give me a job answering the

5:32

phones for the new music. So

5:32

that's how I got my my first

5:37

sort of entree into city TV. And

5:37

then while I was working at City

5:42

TV, answering the phones and

5:42

being the entertainment

5:44

coordinator and working my way

5:44

up, I was JD and Jeannie

5:49

Becker's assistant, I also

5:49

worked part time at the local

5:53

cable company. I had called them

5:53

up and asked, I said, Hi, my

5:57

name is Erica, can I have a job?

5:57

hosting a show? an entertainment

6:02

show? And the guy on the phone?

6:02

His name is Willie john. He

6:06

said, Sure. Honestly, not a word

6:06

of a lie. So I went down to the

6:10

local community programming

6:10

channel, McLean Hunter, and I

6:13

started hosting a show there. I

6:13

did that for two years, you

6:16

know, for free, have

6:16

volunteered. And then I made a

6:18

demo tape. And then I got the

6:18

job.

6:22

So okay, so there's something I have to ask you about here with the stature

6:23

of Moses Znaimer? How did you

6:26

convince him to come?

6:28

Well, first of all, I didn't know about the stature of Moses Znaimer to be honest.

6:30

Listen, I was how old was I? I

6:34

was 19 years old. And he his

6:34

wife was friends with my mom. So

6:40

I just knew him as this, you

6:40

know, Moses, his husband, like I

6:45

didn't understand he was Moses

6:45

nightmare, right? So that

6:49

ignorance was very useful. But

6:49

at the same time, I think even

6:53

still, today, I am absolutely

6:53

fearless. When I want something,

7:00

I know that I can't let fear get

7:00

in my way. And also, I remember

7:05

that everybody is a person. He's

7:05

a guy, he's like a person with

7:10

one would assume a heart and an

7:10

interest in, you know, young

7:15

talent. He runs a TV station,

7:15

you know, one would assume that

7:19

he'd be interested in finding

7:19

new people who could fit with

7:23

his vision. So I think in life,

7:23

you have to be fearless. Because

7:28

nobody is going to walk up to

7:28

you and offer you anything

7:31

except this particular podcast

7:31

that you asked me to do. But any

7:36

other opportunity, I had to call

7:36

and ask about,

7:40

That takes quite

7:40

a bit of courage to do something

7:43

like that. But that, you know,

7:43

let's talk about the transition

7:46

from Alright, so now you're

7:46

answering the phones? How do you

7:50

go to being on air? Because that

7:50

in itself is also transition,

7:53

you expect that, you know,

7:53

someone with experience in front

7:58

of the camera would would get

7:58

that opportunity? So how did you

8:02

then take that next sort of

8:02

fearless leap to say, I should

8:06

be the one who's in front of a

8:06

camera? Because especially at

8:10

the time when there wasn't a lot

8:10

of channels, there weren't a lot

8:14

of big TV stars. That would take

8:14

a lot of gumption to say, Oh,

8:17

yeah, that should definitely be me.

8:19

It had to be me. List

8:19

n, I was, I was the music cura

8:23

or in Montreal, because I was

8:23

he DJ, in the punk and new w

8:27

ve bars. That's all I wanted

8:27

I never and still don't care ab

8:31

ut fame. I want to be an influe

8:31

ce on your passions, on your vis

8:40

on in life, and not just in mu

8:40

ic and culture. But I am over

8:45

ly loud about being kind and r

8:45

le modeling behavior that I th

8:49

nk is important to make the wo

8:49

ld better. So I, I take that

8:52

on myself. Why? Or how I made t

8:52

at transition was an interest

8:57

ng one. Because a I was alre

8:57

dy hosting a show on cable. I

9:02

ad actually hosted a show

9:02

in Montreal when I was DJi

9:05

g. Someone said to me, do you w

9:05

nt to host a show that we're do

9:07

ng it was called music video. T

9:07

at was probably in 1979. It's st

9:11

ll you can search it, i

9:11

's somewhere on YouTube. And I j

9:15

st was like, Oh my god, I l

9:15

ve Siouxsie and the Banshees

9:18

so much, you really have to

9:18

uy that album. I mean, I

9:21

as already doing it. But what

9:21

as interesting about city TV

9:26

nd much music was that they of

9:26

en hired internally. And we'll t

9:30

lk about that later, when we do

9:30

he conversation about

9:34

my reinvention of the vj Show.

9:34

'm discovering so many interest

9:38

ng things about other people

9:38

ho were doing have done simi

9:43

ar jobs to me at muchmusic.

9:43

nd there is a theme where there

9:47

is a prediction predisposition f

9:47

om Moses and his team to h

9:53

re people who were already part

9:53

of sort of our Ico who underst

10:00

od What much music was about,

10:00

nd we're passionate about music

10:05

nd culture, but didn't h

10:05

ve experience as a broadcaster.

10:09

nd Moses, his incredible insi

10:09

ht was that you can te

10:15

ch broadcasting, but you ca

10:15

't teach passion. So if you look

10:21

at the people who were on, not j

10:21

st much music, but on city TV

10:25

as well, the environmentalist,

10:25

or example, were not broadcaste

10:30

s. They were environmen

10:30

al warriors, who were given

10:36

he access to microphone and cam

10:36

ra and learned to tell stories

10:41

in front of people. Because, as

10:41

ou know, you're not a broadcas

10:45

er by trade. You're right, like

10:45

ou your experience is differe

10:50

t. But you've taught yoursel

10:50

I mean, it doesn't take that m

10:53

ch to be a great storyteller. It

10:53

is hard to be a great listen

10:58

r, which you are. But people

10:58

re drawn to people who

11:03

re authentically passionate

11:03

nd knowledgeable about somethi

11:08

g. And Moses knew firsthand tha

11:08

I lived the life I walked

11:13

he talk. And there weren't whe

11:13

I went on the air, I was 23. Th

11:17

re were not probably any girls

11:17

or women in the country who had

11:22

he background already that I h

11:22

d, at that age, I went for it

11:27

I was focus

11:29

And when you

11:29

when you first went on air as a

11:31

much music vj. Did you know

11:31

right then in there that this

11:37

format is going to explode. This

11:37

is going to partly define an

11:41

entire generation. Did you ever

11:41

come to that realization? Was

11:46

there a moment in time where you

11:46

said, Wow, I'm a really big

11:48

deal.

11:49

I had no idea. The

11:49

weird thing was much music was

11:52

this shitty office with dirty

11:52

desks scattered and old cameras,

11:58

like the gear was shitty, and we

11:58

really didn't have a lot of

12:02

money. So internally, we were

12:02

not treated. That would be the

12:07

honor people were not really

12:07

treated that much differently

12:10

than the rest of the crew.

12:10

Everybody had a function within

12:13

the Office at my job was to be

12:13

in front of the camera and tell

12:17

the story. But I was really not

12:17

much more important than the

12:21

person doing audio because if

12:21

the person who did audio didn't

12:24

do their job, well, no one could

12:24

hear me. Like we were a really

12:27

tight group. And we were not

12:27

allowed to have any errors or

12:32

sense of self importance about

12:32

us. In fact, I was warned

12:35

repeatedly, stupidly, I think

12:35

that I was easily replaced that

12:40

that was probably the worst

12:40

management style. And I said to

12:44

myself, actually, when I worked

12:44

there, I was like, why are they

12:47

doing this to me when I am so

12:47

passionately proud of working

12:52

for this corporation and and

12:52

basically working for them? 24

12:55

seven? Why would they tell me

12:55

that. And in fact, it it

12:59

encouraged me to pull back more

12:59

and more, and start planting my

13:05

own entrepreneurial seeds while

13:05

working there. And I always said

13:09

to myself, you know, if I ever

13:09

ran my own business, I will

13:13

treat my employees or the

13:13

contractors or whoever they are

13:17

100% differently. I will tell

13:17

them all the time, how valued

13:22

they are, how irreplaceable they

13:22

are, because you can never

13:25

replace one person because one

13:25

person is completely different

13:28

than somebody else. One person

13:28

has unique skill sets, right? So

13:32

you can never actually replace

13:32

them. And that's why people work

13:36

for me. When I started my my

13:36

agency and my company years ago.

13:41

Some of the people still work

13:41

for me. They simply want to go

13:44

back to you. So it sounds like

13:44

your life Sokolow. I'm so sorry.

13:48

But

13:48

Are you kidding?

13:48

Are you kidding? I know, all my

13:51

friends and listeners are gonna

13:51

say, Listen, this should be a

13:54

two hour podcast. I'd love to

13:54

hear Erica's voice. I think for

13:58

a lot of people, it brings them

13:58

back, you know, to to that time

14:01

in our lives. And we were so

14:01

formed by things around us. I

14:05

remember watching much music,

14:05

everyone watched that after

14:07

school, coming home, it was just

14:07

a huge part of everyone's lives.

14:12

But I want to talk about this,

14:12

this paradox. So you know, on

14:14

one hand, you talked about how

14:14

the culture was really important

14:19

and what Moses's stamp was on,

14:19

you find the passion, you can

14:23

teach them, you know, the

14:23

technical aspects of the job,

14:26

but you need people first. And

14:26

then this management, you know,

14:30

style of saying to people you

14:30

can be you can be replaced, that

14:34

really seemed to go against it.

14:34

So what triggered you to start

14:40

thinking about leaving? Do you

14:40

think that that messaging made

14:44

you say, Well, I need to start

14:44

thinking about the next step

14:47

because they're basically

14:47

telling me that I'm replaceable.

14:51

This presents a bit of a risk,

14:51

you know, from an employee's

14:54

perspective, that is not a great

14:54

thing to hear. And so you said

14:58

you started to plant these He's

14:58

about what was going to happen

15:01

next. How did you plant those

15:01

seeds which initiated the next

15:07

reinvention of Erica?

15:09

Well, I dabbled in

15:09

entrepreneurism when I started a

15:14

hat company. I don't know if you

15:14

know this, but I used to wear

15:18

hats all the time at much and it

15:18

was really hard to find good

15:21

hats. Because I was a

15:21

trendsetter. So when you're

15:24

trendsetter, it's hard to find

15:24

the things that you're looking

15:27

for. Right? So I did a few

15:27

seasons of by, you know,

15:33

designing, finding young

15:33

designers designing the hats

15:36

getting them. It was so cool,

15:36

getting them made manufactured

15:41

in Canada, in Toronto, we found

15:41

hat manufacturers, and then

15:45

getting them shipped to my

15:45

basement, and then shipping them

15:49

out to people and selling them

15:49

like it was a fascinating

15:52

experience. And I had some

15:52

really great hats to wear for a

15:55

long time. So that was one of

15:55

the things I also started to do

15:58

a lot of voiceovers. So I was

15:58

starting to understand the world

16:02

of advertising. Then I started a

16:02

record label. Well, the problem

16:07

was, I actually quit this is it.

16:07

Can I tell you a good story?

16:10

Of course you can.

16:11

Okay, so in about

16:11

1989, I'd been on air for four

16:16

years, and I found out that I

16:16

was making significantly less

16:19

money than the men. So on one

16:19

hand, it made sense in terms of

16:25

seniority because I hadn't been

16:25

a broadcaster for as long as

16:29

then I was younger than

16:29

everybody at the time. However,

16:33

I was getting more fan mail than

16:33

a lot of the people or at least

16:37

as much and I was becoming

16:37

synonymous with the nation's

16:42

music station. And I worked

16:42

really hard. So I went into my

16:47

boss's office, and I was you

16:47

know, I had all the statistics

16:51

about how I was getting more

16:51

male than people etc. And I

16:54

offered a job. So I asked him

16:54

for a raise. And my boss said to

16:59

me, I heard you're really

16:59

difficult to work with. Yeah,

17:04

you could see you're rolling

17:04

your eyes because I was like,

17:07

What the fuck did you say to me?

17:07

I, my head, you know, that emoji

17:13

of exploding heads? That was me.

17:13

Right? And I said to him, in a

17:18

very professional way, fuck off.

17:18

And I left. Oh, sorry. I said,

17:25

fuck off. I quit. And I stormed

17:25

out. Like that was that I am

17:31

working my ass off proudly,

17:31

without a moment of complaint

17:36

for your company. And for me,

17:36

because I love my job. And

17:39

that's the that's the way you

17:39

reply to me. So I quit. I turned

17:44

off my phone. And I called up my

17:44

friend Tim thorny first before I

17:49

turned off my phone, crying Tim,

17:49

I quit my job. He goes, What me?

17:53

What are you doing? I said, I

17:53

told him what happened? And he

17:56

said Good for you. He said, Can

17:56

you write a song songwriter, and

18:00

he was a jingle producer. And I

18:00

said, I don't know, as I wiped

18:03

my tears. He said come over and

18:03

we'll try and write a song.

18:06

Well, we ended up actually being

18:06

able to craft quite a good song.

18:09

He's an amazing songwriter. And

18:09

we ended up becoming songwriting

18:13

partners for 10 years. And we

18:13

started a record label and we

18:18

won Juno Awards and Country

18:18

Music Awards, and so can awards.

18:22

Anyway, fast forward to four

18:22

days later, returned my phone

18:25

back on. And my boss called the

18:25

other boss is like Erica, come

18:29

on, come back. They're freaking

18:29

out. Right? Because everyone's

18:32

asking Where's Erica? And I

18:32

said, I'm not coming until you

18:36

give me the raise that I asked

18:36

for he goes, we'll give you the

18:38

raise come back. So I started a

18:38

new career as a songwriter and

18:46

got the raise that I deserved.

18:49

So you were able

18:49

to start this new sort of

18:53

revenue stream this new passion

18:53

and you also went back to being

18:57

on air at muchmusic with the

18:57

rays that that you had initially

19:02

asked for. So that was certainly

19:02

like pulling teeth negotiating

19:06

the hard way. And again, a lot

19:06

of people may not have the the

19:09

same level of

19:13

tenacity,

19:14

Yeah, tenac

19:14

ty to negotiate for themselves.

19:18

So So when it comes to your advi

19:18

e for people when they ar

19:22

in a situation where they fee

19:22

, you know, I should be makin

19:27

more What do you have

19:27

ike a prescription as to how to

19:30

ackle that conversation with

19:30

ith a

19:33

I actually went to a

19:33

therapist to understand

19:37

behavior. So the next time that

19:37

I was in a situation like that,

19:43

because I didn't like my

19:43

reaction, I don't think that

19:45

fuck off is actually a useful

19:45

way of dealing with it, but it

19:49

was how a 27 year old responded

19:49

pure emotion. You need to be in

19:56

control of your emotions and you

19:56

need to learn How to not be

20:01

defensive. So when someone comes

20:01

at you with something like that,

20:06

I'd say that's an interesting

20:06

perspective. Can you tell me

20:09

where you got that information

20:09

from? You have to be calm. And

20:13

you have to be able to respond,

20:13

even though you think that

20:17

person is the biggest jerk. And

20:17

you let them talk. And you might

20:22

even say, you know, what, if you

20:22

can provide me some of that

20:26

documentation, I'm going to go

20:26

away and look at it, and I'll

20:30

come back to you.

20:31

Because it sounds like bullshit what he said, like, that sounds like

20:32

that sounds like something that

20:35

he would never say to a man.

20:37

Thank you. But I also

20:37

think in life, you need to

20:45

control your emotions,

20:45

especially women, and not that

20:49

women are more emotional, but

20:49

they're judged right? on how

20:53

they respond with or without

20:53

their emotions. So I've learned

20:56

to be a man. My I run my

20:56

business, like I'm a man,

21:01

someone brought me a mug

21:01

recently. And it says on it,

21:04

don't fuck with me. So if

21:04

someone comes at me with

21:09

something that is irrational, or

21:09

something that irks me, I will

21:15

respond in a non defensive way.

21:15

I will say, I hear what you're

21:19

saying, I need to think about

21:19

that. And I'll get back to you.

21:22

Now, interestingly enough, CBT

21:22

therapy, explained to me that we

21:28

experienced strong emotions for

21:28

about 20 to 40 seconds, and then

21:33

it goes away. So when you're in

21:33

a position where you're feeling

21:37

triggered, especially at work,

21:37

but also in life, you just need

21:42

to walk away, be calm, walk

21:42

away. And I will guarantee you

21:47

that you'll have a clear head in

21:47

a few minutes. And it's at that

21:51

point, you're going to respond.

21:51

So if you get an email that is

21:54

triggering you, you know, what

21:54

the fuck are they taught, what

21:57

the fuck, just go calm down. I'm

21:57

not gonna say anything, I'm not

22:03

responding. And then take the

22:03

time, and respond in a non

22:08

confrontational way. Always. If

22:08

you're confrontational, it just

22:12

goes up, and up and up. And

22:12

suddenly you're in a war, you

22:17

need to find a way to defuse and

22:17

win. So not give in, defuse, and

22:27

find a way to win and negotiate

22:27

in a non defensive, open way, I

22:33

hear what you're saying.

22:35

It's such great

22:35

advice. I know, thinking of the

22:38

times where I've let my emotions

22:38

in the heat of a moment, get the

22:43

better of my responses. And

22:43

anytime I've seen that with

22:45

people around me, you've

22:45

basically boxed yourself into a

22:50

corner, there are very few moves

22:50

you can make once you've passed

22:54

once you've crossed the Rubicon,

22:54

right. But if you can pause and

22:57

come back later, you can be a

22:57

lot more strategic. It's like,

23:00

you know, it's like anything

23:00

hindsight is 2020. But you don't

23:05

have to make a decision in the

23:05

moment. And if you take the time

23:08

to defuse, and then come back

23:08

when you've had time to think

23:11

about it, it is so much more

23:11

effective. For people.

23:16

We're obsessed with

23:16

returning emails, or when the

23:19

phone rings answering it. Don't

23:19

answer the phone. You're in

23:25

control. We are in control of

23:25

our own lives. Your boss is not

23:31

in control of you, your co

23:31

workers are not in control of

23:34

you. You control it. Be smart,

23:34

as to how you speak to people.

23:43

And how you communicate. Be

23:43

smart. use technology wisely use

23:48

social media wisely. It is it's

23:48

in your it's in your hands to

23:53

control.

23:55

As you

23:55

mentioned, there was this

23:57

period, I think was 94 is when

23:57

you left much music and you

24:43

really were a renaissance woman.

24:43

You You wrote songs plays, you

24:49

wrote books, children's books.

24:49

As you mentioned, you won a

24:53

bunch of awards, Canadian

24:53

Country Music Awards. So Kansas

24:57

junos. You were in Robocop? Yes,

24:57

it was. So you acted for a while

25:03

and you were in Robocop the TV

25:03

series? Not not the movie, but

25:07

that was pretty was that shot in

25:07

Toronto, or did you have to go?

25:10

I did

25:10

it while I was working. I think it was working at much at the same time or is

25:12

right around the same time.

25:15

Yeah. Right. And

25:15

so there's a bunch of different

25:18

things that you're you had your

25:18

hands in. But then I want to

25:22

talk about your next sort of

25:22

reinvention into being a sort

25:26

of, you know, full fledged

25:26

entrepreneur and sort of putting

25:31

everything together and also

25:31

defining I think next period of

25:35

your life and that is Yummy

25:35

Mummy. club.ca. So that was I

25:39

think 15 years ago now 2006.

25:39

Yep. So when when did you have

25:46

the idea to start this business

25:46

and why?

25:51

Well, the difference

25:51

between what I was doing in

25:53

those earlier years after much

25:53

was I was a contractor. I was an

25:58

independent contractor that was

25:58

sort of for hire. Some of it was

26:01

entrepreneurial, some of it, I

26:01

was being hired, but I really

26:05

wasn't in control of my destiny.

26:05

Then I had kids and my world

26:09

exploded, and I had a really

26:09

hard time adjusting to

26:13

motherhood, because I'm typing.

26:13

I like to make things happen and

26:16

kids don't listen. You know, you

26:16

say, buddy, go to bed. And

26:22

they're like, no, buddy, I got

26:22

to do work. They're like, no. So

26:29

it was it was really hard for me

26:29

to adjust. And, but I knew that

26:33

what turns me on, is listening

26:33

to my passion. And my family had

26:39

become my passion, trying to

26:39

understand parenting, because I

26:42

had no fucking clue what I was

26:42

doing. I didn't have a lot of

26:44

friends who had kids, most of my

26:44

friends were working women. And

26:49

they hadn't gone down that road.

26:49

Even though when I had my kids,

26:52

I was old. I was 39 when I had

26:52

my son. So I was like, out of my

26:57

depth. So I started working at I

26:57

looked for jobs. First of all,

27:02

no one wanted to hire me because

27:02

I was fat and old. 100% telling

27:06

you, my career was over. So

27:06

that's number one. I was dead.

27:10

No one wanted to hear from me,

27:10

no one wanted to talk to me. So

27:14

I looked on, like the media job

27:14

search. And I found the job of

27:20

reporter or writer for what's up

27:20

kids magazine. And they hired

27:26

me. So my job was to write

27:26

stories about issues relating to

27:30

parenting. And I loved it.

27:30

Because I was basically learning

27:35

about what I was most interested

27:35

in, much like music. And the

27:38

reason why I left much music was

27:38

because I got tired of it. I was

27:42

now really immersed in this

27:42

world. And I wanted to find ways

27:49

to tell more stories. But nobody

27:49

was talking about the reality of

27:53

being a mother today. Which is,

27:53

it's shitty, it's hard.

27:58

Everybody says, Oh, I'm doing

27:58

great. Like, well, why am I

28:01

struggling? Why is this so hard?

28:01

I started, I came up with this

28:06

idea for a TV show called Yummy

28:06

Mummy. And I was at an event.

28:12

And a woman came up to me and

28:12

gave me her business card. It

28:16

was all scrunched up with

28:16

someone else's name written on

28:19

it. And she said, call me. And I

28:19

was like, Yeah, you're 12.

28:22

Anyway, I did call her because

28:22

you always go after every

28:25

opportunity. And sure enough,

28:25

she was sourcing ideas for a

28:30

production company. And I

28:30

pitched them the idea of Yummy

28:34

Mummy which would, you know,

28:34

celebrate and commiserate the

28:37

roller coaster of modern

28:37

motherhood, and they bought it.

28:40

So I suddenly had a TV series.

28:40

It was broadcast on life network

28:45

and syndicated on Discovery

28:45

health around the world. I wrote

28:49

the show, I hosted it, I co

28:49

produced it. And the show was

28:53

cool, because it was kind of

28:53

shot against a green screen. So

28:55

it was like peewee Herman's

28:55

Playhouse combined with a, like

28:59

a lifestyle show. And you can

28:59

still buy episodes for 99 cents

29:03

on amazon prime. How crazy is

29:03

that? So that was 2003 to 2005.

29:08

And when the show ended, I

29:08

wasn't down I was like, Oh my

29:12

god, I am building community

29:12

here. And so I started this

29:16

little tiny website called yummy

29:16

mommy club.ca, which was sort of

29:20

supposed to be a continuation of

29:20

the TV show. But there was no

29:25

business model for this. So I

29:25

was doing it really, because I

29:28

needed friends. I was trying to

29:28

find a community of like minded

29:31

women. So I built about 300 pages, and

29:33

it started to pick up momentum.

29:37

Remember, there were there were

29:37

barely mommy blogs at the time.

29:40

This was a head of mommy blogs.

29:40

And PR people started to come to

29:44

me and saying, you know, hey, if

29:44

you write about us, we'll give

29:46

you a mop. Right? And I'd like

29:46

fuck off. And so I came up with

29:52

this one line, which is what's

29:52

your budget? They're like, What?

29:57

What's your budget? I'm working

29:57

here. If you'd like me to

30:01

connect to your product with

30:01

moms, what's your budget, and

30:04

that was when the light went

30:04

off. And I was like, I can work

30:09

with brands to tell their

30:09

stories in meaningful ways. And

30:13

connect them to my audience,

30:13

started hiring people, it

30:16

started to grow. And we became

30:16

the leaders in branded content.

30:23

Back in 2007 was when my first

30:23

big project with Fuji films

30:28

launched where we sent out a we

30:28

had created a integrated

30:32

contest. We were on Twitter, we

30:32

started spreading the

30:37

information on Twitter. We had a

30:37

newsletters. out, we had a whole

30:41

bunch of articles about how to

30:41

take photographs of your family

30:46

brought to you by Fuji. That was

30:46

through Apex PR, I'll never

30:50

forget it, because when your

30:50

first project is sold it, you

30:54

know, you build it, and then

30:54

they will come. And I was able

30:57

to use a case study to show

30:57

other brands, that mom's loved

31:02

what we were doing, and that

31:02

they were, they were passing it

31:06

on, and it became semi viral,

31:06

etc. And so my business was was

31:10

born. And then we we launched M

31:10

and CO, which is an agency

31:14

because people thought that we

31:14

were just a website. But no, we

31:17

are, in fact, an agency that

31:17

connects brands with moms. And

31:22

then I had 500 families, each

31:22

who had mom blogs or Twitter

31:27

accounts, and they started to

31:27

extend and amplify our programs.

31:32

And they were way before there

31:32

was such a thing as influencers.

31:36

So I I basically started the

31:36

first influencer agency back in

31:41

2008.

31:42

Wow. Yeah, I

31:42

mean, it's it's strange, you

31:46

know, 2008 doesn't sound like it

31:46

was such a long time ago. But

31:50

in, in the in the space of time

31:50

that influencer marketing has

31:55

grown, it seems like that's only

31:55

been around for like five years.

31:59

But you again, we're

31:59

trailblazing You know, this,

32:03

this whole industry. So I want

32:03

to talk a little bit about some

32:08

of the work that mn co has done

32:08

because I was intrigued by a

32:11

report that you put out called

32:11

the current COVID state of mom.

32:16

And, you know, for for any of

32:16

the brands who are out there

32:19

listening, you know, this, this

32:19

survey, breaks down what

32:23

Canadian moms are doing, how

32:23

they're handling the pandemic.

32:27

And I think it makes sense to

32:27

continue our theme of

32:29

reinvention, this time, we're

32:29

focused on the brand

32:31

perspective, this should not be

32:31

news to them. But things have

32:34

changed. consumer preferences

32:34

have changed dramatically in the

32:37

last year. Things like just look

32:37

at Fitness peloton bikes Who

32:42

would have thought a $3,000

32:42

stationary bike that you have to

32:45

pay a monthly subscription for

32:45

what would blow up the lobby, my

32:50

condo is basically an Amazon

32:50

warehouse, everyone has shifted

32:55

to so much more online

32:55

consumption. So, you know,

33:01

brands that thrive are the ones

33:01

that can figure out the shifts,

33:04

and you have done research to

33:04

see what what is the state of

33:09

mind for for moms? And how

33:09

should brands be thinking about

33:14

what they're doing in light of

33:14

this new information? So what if

33:17

you could talk to us a little

33:17

bit about the survey and sort of

33:21

the big findings that you were

33:21

surprised by?

33:25

Well, I would have to

33:25

say that I wasn't that surprised

33:28

because my agency is run by moms

33:28

for moms. Right? So we're all

33:33

living it what it did, it just

33:33

confirmed that I'm not alone,

33:37

that what I'm going through

33:37

other moms all over the country

33:41

are going through 700 moms

33:41

replied, and the results really

33:46

spoke loudly. 85% of or sorry,

33:46

78% of moms said that they're

33:53

worried about their families,

33:53

mental and physical health. 42%

33:58

of moms say they're not having

33:58

sex at all. I think it's seven,

34:02

I don't have the numbers written

34:02

for him. But something like 73%

34:05

of moms say that they have very

34:05

little me time alone time. So

34:12

I imagine that

34:12

was not I mean, they probably

34:14

have very little Meantime, pre

34:14

pandemic, but I imagine that the

34:17

stress and the additional time

34:17

management required to

34:20

coordinate, you know, school

34:20

closures, daycare closures, meal

34:26

prep, all that stuff has been

34:26

added to the plate with the

34:32

extra challenge of time

34:32

management, but extra burden as

34:36

well, because we see that that

34:36

women and moms take on more of

34:40

the burden with what's happened

34:40

with the pandemic. In fact,

34:43

there was just the December jobs

34:43

report out of the US 140,000

34:47

jobs lost. And it was the

34:47

National Women's Law Center that

34:52

said all of them belong to

34:52

women.

34:54

Yeah. Well, it's

34:54

interesting that only 30% of

34:57

women said that they're worried

34:57

about paying their bills, or

35:00

that it's their top concern. I

35:00

think that number is going to

35:04

rise in the coming weeks and

35:04

months, as more and more

35:08

businesses continue to stay

35:08

closed. And also women are

35:12

giving up their jobs now to stay

35:12

home because their kids are not

35:17

going to school, right? Someone

35:17

has to be home. So it's a really

35:22

challenging time for women. The

35:22

consumption of junk food and

35:28

wine is up 70% amongst women, so

35:28

which means their weight is

35:34

going to be going up, which is

35:34

not a surprise the pandemic

35:38

weight that I'm as you I can see

35:38

you're looking at me now I'm, I

35:42

look jolly. Now.

35:45

You look beautiful.

35:46

Thank you. I am, you

35:46

know also dealing with all the

35:50

ramifications of being locked

35:50

down with my family, women are

35:53

saying that the stress of

35:53

preparing meals every day is

35:58

rising. I think it's 60% of moms

35:58

say that they're more stressed

36:01

at mealtime that they're more

36:01

challenged to find what they're

36:06

going to prepare for their

36:06

families like these are huge

36:11

daily stresses that moms are

36:11

contending with. They're also

36:16

eating out significantly less.

36:16

So in terms of CPG companies.

36:20

Hello, moms need you right now.

36:20

Right. And they need recipes.

36:25

They need ways to prepare meals

36:25

that are exciting, fast and

36:30

inexpensive. So those are the

36:30

kinds of things that and also

36:35

junk food. They're looking for

36:35

junk food, and if you're in the

36:39

wine or alcohol business, moms

36:39

are looking for some fun. And I

36:43

think that fun is, you know,

36:43

okay, let me let me just sort of

36:48

go back a little bit. One of the

36:48

reasons why we prepared this

36:51

survey is that a lot of brands

36:51

are afraid to market right now.

36:55

Because they don't want to

36:55

misstep. They don't want to, you

36:58

know, say something that will

36:58

land the wrong way. Because moms

37:03

are really in a good state of

37:03

mind right now. So that

37:07

hopefully, this survey, in fact,

37:07

people can get it, they can,

37:10

they can just email me or go to

37:10

M and CO and e h m co.com. And

37:17

they can just go there, and

37:17

we'll send you the full report.

37:20

Because I think it's really

37:20

important, you know, on behalf

37:24

of all women, that I don't want

37:24

brands to alienate their

37:29

audience, or their consumers by

37:29

really not understanding the

37:33

stress and anxiety that they're

37:33

dealing with. And also not

37:37

understanding the opportunities

37:37

that are there for them to

37:41

market to moms, they may not

37:41

understand that women are

37:44

looking for new ways of

37:44

preparing meals, or we asked

37:48

them if you could, if a genie

37:48

could offer you and one wish,

37:54

what would it be? And the

37:54

majority of people said house

37:57

cleaner, meal prep, and a tutor

37:57

for their kids. So Boom, boom,

38:03

boom. If you're working in those

38:03

industries, there are

38:06

opportunities, how to clean your

38:06

house more easily, you know, all

38:11

the meal companies. Hello, moms

38:11

are looking for help right now.

38:17

And if you are in the world of

38:17

tutoring, or helping to educate

38:21

kids in any way with any product

38:21

or service strike now.

38:26

Yeah, it sounds like if you're looking for a campaign, and you want

38:28

intelligence on what that

38:31

campaign should be focused on,

38:31

visit to Erica's company's

38:34

website. So a lot of people may

38:34

not know the spelling of your

38:38

last name, right? It's just kind

38:38

of like share, you know, it's

38:41

just people know the name is

38:41

Eric M. It's not m it's eh M.

38:46

And so the website for the company, if they want to get that report is

38:50

ehmco.com

38:53

I want to talk

38:53

about a few other things. And I

38:56

know that, you know, a lot of my

38:56

friends will have questions

39:00

about some of the highlights at

39:00

muchmusic. There is one thing I

39:06

want to ask you about. So I know

39:06

a lot of people talk about that

39:10

that famous Kurt Cobain

39:10

interview. And it was conducted,

39:15

I think it was nine months

39:15

before his death. You You wrote

39:18

a blog post that talked about

39:18

kind of like the behind the

39:21

scenes, which I thought was such

39:21

an interesting read. And I

39:25

recommend people go there and

39:25

they can find that information

39:28

on your personal blog, I think.

39:28

Yeah. And you mentioned that at

39:32

the time you wrote the blog

39:32

piece at the video of that

39:35

interview had gone viral with 5

39:35

million views. Do you know how

39:37

many people have have viewed that now? Because it's significantly higher than that?

39:39

How many? It's about to hit 10

39:42

million views. Wow. Yeah. And

39:42

which

39:48

I had no idea. At

39:48

that time. That would be the

39:52

interview that defined my career.

39:54

Right. Right.

39:54

Well, I think what was so

39:58

different about that interview

39:58

is how disarming you were?

40:02

Because you're your first

40:02

question, the biggest rock star

40:07

in the world. First question is

40:07

about books. And immediately you

40:11

see that that interview is going

40:11

to take a different path than

40:15

what was in his mind, I think.

40:18

So I do a book

40:18

showing much where talk to do

40:22

what a bookshelf, talk to

40:22

different people about favorite

40:25

books that you've read and how

40:25

has inspired you or what you

40:28

learn from it or something like

40:28

that. So do you have a book that

40:33

that comes back to you amongst one?

40:35

Yeah, well, I've

40:35

read perfume by Patrick Siskin

40:40

About 10 times in my life, and I

40:40

can't stop reading it, it's like

40:45

something that's just stationary

40:45

in my pocket all the time. It

40:47

just doesn't leave me. And every

40:47

time I'm bored, like I'm on a

40:50

airplane or something, I read it

40:50

over and over again. Because I'm

40:53

a hypochondriac, and it just

40:53

affects me makes me want to cut

40:56

my nose off.

40:57

What's the book about,

40:58

it's about this perfume

40:58

apprentice in in France, at the

41:04

turn of the century, and he, he

41:04

is disgusted, basically, with

41:09

all humans, and he just can't

41:09

get away from humans. So he goes

41:11

on this track, this walk of

41:11

death, where he just, he goes

41:15

into the rural areas where

41:15

there's, you know, woods all

41:18

over the place in the small

41:18

villages. And he only travels by

41:21

night. And he, he just every

41:21

time he smells human, like a

41:26

fire from afar off way, and

41:26

he'll just get really disgusted

41:30

and hide, and he just tries to

41:30

stay away from people can relate

41:34

to

41:36

ever use what you

41:36

read in any of your songs.

41:39

As a matter of

41:39

fact, I use that very story in

41:41

scentless apprentice.

41:43

Yeah. And it was

41:43

a compelling interview to watch

41:46

if people haven't seen it. And

41:46

I've seen it, you know, back in

41:49

the day, and I saw when you

41:49

posted your blog post, and I'm

41:52

probably gonna watch it again,

41:52

because it's so engaging. And I

41:56

imagine was for him as well. And

41:56

you, you talked about, you know,

42:00

your thoughts during the interviews, like, Oh, you know, I thought it was gonna be this

42:02

big ego, and he's a sweetheart.

42:06

So what was your most memorable

42:06

in a bad way? interview that you

42:10

had with an artist or band?

42:14

I talked a lot about

42:14

this. I really didn't like my

42:19

interview with or not, I didn't

42:19

like my interview. I didn't like

42:23

the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

42:23

Really? Why? Well, when I was

42:27

interviewing them, before the

42:27

interview, we warn them, you

42:30

know, this is live. So try to

42:30

keep your swearing to a minimum,

42:35

you know, it's rock and roll and

42:35

everything. But we have a

42:38

license from the CRTC. And

42:38

you're not really supposed to

42:41

swear. And I remember, this was

42:41

30 odd years ago. So a lot has

42:46

changed in the world of

42:46

broadcast. And for those who are

42:48

younger than me, you may not

42:48

know that you weren't allowed to

42:52

swear on television ever. Right?

42:52

It was not okay. You could use

42:57

lose your license. So when I was

42:57

interviewing them, they started

43:03

to swear in the middle of it.

43:03

And when we went to break,

43:08

because it was a long interview,

43:08

when we went to break, I said to

43:10

them, guys, we can lose our

43:10

license, or something to that

43:14

effect. Please don't swear.

43:14

Sorry. They were so nice. Sorry.

43:19

Sorry. We won't do that again.

43:19

Like we get it. We get it. We go

43:24

back on. And they went right

43:24

back into. Yeah, I'm a rock

43:30

star, right. And so I was like,

43:30

Fuck you. I didn't say that. But

43:35

in my mind, I was like, Fuck

43:35

you. This interview is over. And

43:39

you could see they're like,

43:39

what? No. And the reason why I

43:44

always cite this as one of my

43:44

least favorite, because other

43:47

people have been less

43:47

forthcoming and they've been

43:49

boring or whatever. But they

43:49

were fake. Who is the real

43:55

person? They were, I saw two

43:55

different people. I saw a group

44:00

of people who were in front of a

44:00

camera. And then I saw a group

44:03

of people who were very

44:03

different when the camera wasn't

44:07

on, I don't know, which was the

44:07

real one. But I didn't like the

44:11

fact that they were absolutely

44:11

inauthentic and they were full

44:15

of shit. And I can't abide

44:15

people who are full of shit.

44:23

That's a that's

44:23

that's an awful story to hear. I

44:27

can only imagine what it would

44:27

been like in the moment because

44:30

I have limited experience with

44:30

you know, broadcasting live. ie,

44:36

was asked to do some fill in

44:36

radio hosting on Newstalk 1010

44:42

for Jim Richards so I'll do like

44:42

a week here or there when he's

44:45

on vacation. And it's a nerve

44:45

wracking thing. And you know, I

44:50

benefit from the there's a seven

44:50

second delay or whatever the the

44:54

delay is, and a producer is in

44:54

control of that. But when you

44:58

have someone who you know,

44:58

you've dedicated a block of time

45:02

live in a schedule, and they've

45:02

decided to completely be

45:07

disrespectful. And then you've

45:07

got to run out that clock,

45:11

right? There's only so much tap

45:11

dancing you can do that is

45:15

awful. Like just I sympathize

45:15

with that like that just makes

45:18

my toes curl.

45:20

I think first of all,

45:20

people who are watching are

45:26

rooting for the host Yeah, to be

45:26

in control and to own it. People

45:32

I think are very uncomfortable

45:32

when the host feels powerless.

45:36

That's probably why you know

45:36

when we were watching the

45:39

debates, With the presidents,

45:39

the future presidents, and

45:43

everybody was mortified at how

45:43

Trump overrode the moderators.

45:49

And everyone was yelling at the

45:49

moderate moderators, you need to

45:52

do more. That's our job, as the

45:52

host is to literally control the

45:58

conversation. Now, that doesn't

45:58

mean control it in the sense of

46:03

overtake it, or be overbearing.

46:03

For example, when I interviewed

46:06

Duran Duran, it was complete

46:06

chaos. But I, me and the lead

46:14

singer, Simon, the bomb, we

46:14

would have these sort of, he

46:17

would look at me while he was

46:17

spraying me with water or about

46:21

to throw cake at me or

46:21

something, to make sure that I

46:23

was okay. And I looked at him,

46:23

and I sort of nodded and smiled.

46:28

And so it was not out of

46:28

control. I was fine.

46:31

Yeah, I trust.

46:32

That's right. And I

46:32

knew this is good TV. Yeah,

46:35

yeah. Which is different than it

46:35

being out of control, and that

46:39

the guest is doing, what the

46:39

host doesn't want, or what the

46:45

station doesn't want. And so I'm

46:45

very comfortable in any

46:49

circumstances to say, that's it.

46:49

You're I think being a parent,

46:53

it probably helps now, you're

46:53

done. Stop.

46:59

Alright, well,

46:59

we'll leave it there. But as you

47:02

know, every guest on this

47:02

podcast gets the last minute or

47:07

two, to provide a commercial or

47:07

anything that they want to

47:10

promote. Now, the challenge with

47:10

you is you've got a lot of

47:13

things, a lot of irons in the

47:13

fire, but the floor is yours.

47:17

Who do you want to send your

47:17

message to your commercial to?

47:20

And where do you want to direct them?

47:22

Well, I think it's less of a commercial and a reminder about the reinvention

47:24

of the vj podcast that I

47:29

launched. Recently, during the

47:29

lockdown, I was able to contact

47:34

a whole bunch of people who used

47:34

to work at muchmusic. And do a

47:40

really personal reconnection

47:40

with each of them. Now, some of

47:45

them I'd never met before. But a

47:45

lot of the people I sort of grew

47:49

up with. So to go back to that

47:49

time to discover how they landed

47:54

their jobs that much what their

47:54

feelings were and memories were

47:59

that may have been different or

47:59

the same as me, which validated

48:03

a lot of my insecurities and

48:03

issues that I had from back in

48:08

the day like oh, you to be do

48:08

and then to follow their lives

48:15

after to see if much was

48:15

actually helpful or a hindrance

48:20

in moving forward in their

48:20

careers to date. Because all of

48:23

us I mean, have, it's almost 20

48:23

to 30 years for most people have

48:28

had interesting lives after the

48:28

fact. So finding that the

48:32

reaction has been pretty

48:32

amazing, a lot of emotion from

48:36

people listening, because it

48:36

triggers a lot of the stuff from

48:39

their childhoods or their teen

48:39

years. And you really get to

48:43

learn people learn what makes

48:43

people tick. And also, there was

48:48

a secondary, which to me was

48:48

almost more important piece of

48:52

reinvention where we all get to

48:52

learn what it takes to reinvent,

48:56

because as you said at the top

48:56

of our conversation, many of us

49:00

are going through really tough

49:00

times right now and being forced

49:03

to reinvent in a variety of

49:03

ways. And hopefully this show

49:08

will give you some little

49:08

insights. how other people have

49:12

managed to pivot their careers.

49:15

Yeah, no, I

49:15

think it is worthwhile

49:17

listening. And again, the title

49:17

is perfect reinvention of the vj

49:21

because this this genre, you

49:21

guys were the trailblazers, and

49:25

then that format completely

49:25

changed, right? It used to be

49:31

you know, music videos on music,

49:31

television stations. Now it's

49:35

not right, you you it is

49:35

transformed how we consume that

49:40

music, different mediums and

49:40

what have you. But everyone has

49:45

had to face who's been a guest

49:45

on that podcast, a reinvention

49:48

of themselves. Some of it was

49:48

forced, some of it was, you

49:52

know, more endogenously decided

49:52

to reinvent themselves, even

49:55

though they didn't necessarily

49:55

need to, but the lessons there

49:58

are applicable to a wide variety

49:58

of people, not just people in,

50:03

you know, Music Entertainment.

50:05

Well, what's

50:05

interesting is if you consider

50:07

why a lot of people eventually

50:07

left is there was a shift in

50:13

technology, right? Because as

50:13

much music evolved, so did

50:20

YouTube, and the value that much

50:20

music brought diminished as

50:26

people became intrigued by this

50:26

new platform where they had

50:30

videos on demand. But I think

50:30

what happened is they got those

50:34

videos on demand, but realized

50:34

that what much music really

50:38

brought was the curation Have

50:38

those videos. And so I think

50:42

people are struggling right now

50:42

to find where do I get my ghost

50:47

stories? Where do I get the

50:47

background? That's I think,

50:50

where a lot of people are

50:50

missing those days of much

50:53

music. It's the personality and

50:53

the insights and the knowledge

50:59

from the hosts that makes that

50:59

make those videos even better.

51:04

It's so it's

51:04

such a good point. You know, one

51:06

of the things that I've noticed

51:06

when I'm consuming news is you

51:10

can get news on demand, anytime,

51:10

Twitter, Facebook, whatever. So

51:15

for the nightly broadcast, I

51:15

don't find the value as much as

51:20

what happened. But where I find

51:20

the real value is, tell me why

51:24

this is important when they do

51:24

the panels that talk about, you

51:27

know, politics or whatever. And

51:27

they tell you Okay, so this

51:30

happened. But here's the

51:30

backstory, you don't know. And

51:32

this is why it's so relevant. So

51:32

that analysis, the curation, in

51:36

this case of news to help

51:36

distill What does this mean to

51:39

you why is important, is changed

51:39

the way I consume news based on

51:44

before, which was, you know,

51:44

again, you didn't have these

51:47

competing sources of news. So

51:47

you kind of come in knowing the

51:52

headlines, but now you want to

51:52

know, well, tell me about what

51:55

happens beneath those headlines.

51:57

What what's

51:57

interesting, though, is that

52:00

curation now, is also slanted.

52:00

Yeah, more so than before? Yes,

52:07

those large companies each seem

52:07

to have an agenda or point of

52:13

view. So we are now having to

52:13

understand this panel is on

52:18

which network which already has

52:18

sort of stated their affinity to

52:23

a certain point of view. And I

52:23

think back in the day, it was

52:28

far more non partisan. Right.

52:31

Yeah, that's a

52:31

great point, because there are

52:33

panels where it's not balanced.

52:33

The value in having, you know, a

52:41

balanced presentation of ideas

52:41

is important. This could be a

52:45

whole other podcast. But well,

52:45

like I said, well, we'll leave

52:49

it there. I want to thank you so

52:49

much for taking time out of your

52:52

busy schedule. To to join me on

52:52

the podcast. It's been a real

52:56

pleasure.

52:58

Thank you so much for

52:58

having me. I could talk forever